March 11, 2021 • 47 mins
Jamie Beachy's interreligious background as a former Christian minister with a deep interest in Buddhism and earth-based indigenous practices emerged through engaging the wisdom of care seekers, colleagues, students, and non-human relatives. As the current director of Naropa University's Center for Contemplative Chaplaincy Jamie teaches other care givers and healers how to care for themselves in this potentially exhausting path of work.
Among other topics, Andrew and David talk about how Jamie got to where she is in her life and career, as well as her work in more expansive understandings of Chaplaincy, care giving, and personal healing around trauma related wellness issues. Jamie is on the front lines of the up and coming science based healing movement centered around the use of psychedelics.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everybody to hyphenated life.
We're joined today by Dr.
Jamie beachy.
She holds a PhD in religiousstudies from the university of
Denver and the aisle of schoolof theology and the masters of
divinity from Pacific school ofreligion in Berkeley,
California.
She has worked as a chaplain.
She is a certified spiritualcare educator and ethics
(00:20):
consultant in diverse contexts,including academic medication
centers, trauma, hospitals,hospice, and palliative care
settings.
She has an inter religiousbackground as a former Christian
minister with a deep interest inBuddhism and earth based
indigenous practices thatemerged through engaging the
(00:41):
wisdom of care seekers,colleagues, students, and what
she calls non-human relatives.
Uh, she directs the Naropacenter for contemplative
chaplaincy, and, uh, she is alsodoing some pretty fascinating
trauma and healing work, uh, asa sub investigator.
And co-therapists for the mapssponsored phase three MTMA
(01:03):
assisted therapy research studyin Boulder, Colorado.
For those of you who don't knowwhat maps stands for, that is
multidisciplinary associationfor psychedelic studies.
We're going to be talking abouther own journey today, uh, both
personally and professionallyvocationally and the work that
she is doing today here inBoulder, Colorado at Naropa,
(01:26):
Jamie beachy, welcome tohyphenated life underfilled to
be with you.
So, uh, I would love to starthere today, and that is just,
uh, I probably use the wordcurious too much, David, but I
am curious about Jamie, whatyour religious and spiritual
upbringing was like, what canyou share about that with our
(01:47):
listeners today?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So I grew up in Denver and was raised in the
Mennonite tradition, which, um,is a pretty traditional
denomination within theChristian tradition and the
focus.
There was a lot of focus in ourcommunity on work and service.
(02:08):
So I'm grateful for thatopportunity to really understand
myself as a person of service inthe world.
I also really appreciate themusic, you know, that the
Mennonite church offers to theworld.
And those are some of the thingsthat I remember most fondly,
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, Jamie, um, you know, our podcast premise, and
we talk about this in a lot ofepisodes, but a big premise is
to bring together the so-called,um, secular and sacred spheres.
Um, and one of our go-to, uh,quotes about that as Madeline
Lingle, the wrinkle in timeauthor, who said there is
(02:50):
nothing so secular that itcannot be sacred.
What would you say about this,uh, binary and how it has
contributed or not to, and yourexperience or expert opinion to,
you know, religion beingabstracted or even devalued in
public discourse in popularculture.
(03:12):
So this whole secular sacredsphere, what, what do you think
about, about that premise?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, as a chaplain, I've always been a person who
represents a religioustradition.
You know, for many years, theChristian tradition was I was
ordained in the United church ofChrist.
And so in chaplaincy, we reallybring the insights from our
traditions into secularcontexts.
(03:41):
And so this question is reallyimportant for chaplaincy and how
I would maybe approach it is tosay that, you know, on the
publics, in the public sphere,it's important to, I think,
value secular engagement andsecular discourse because people
(04:01):
are coming from multiplereligious perspectives and the
separation of church and state,you know, is actually something
that is really foundational tothe traditional Mennonite
tradition, you know, church andthe Anabaptists.
The way that I grew up was verymuch, um, you know, that they
should be separate in the publicsphere, but then when it comes
(04:22):
to, to private practice and theway that we live in the world,
um, I really don't see too muchof a division between, I would
perhaps, um, reiterate whatMadeline Lingle is saying, that
there, there really isn't, um, aclear distinction in my mind
between the secular and thesacred and the way that I live
(04:43):
my life.
But when I encounter people thathave different kinds of
commitments, then it's importantthat, you know, and when it
comes to our, our, our commonlaws and the way that we do
things publicly as a community,then it would be important to
have a secular spaces wheremultiple perspectives can really
be, be appreciated and, and havespace to, to, um, express,
(05:09):
express their insights andvalues and commitments.
And so I, um, but for mepersonally, really, I think
over, over my lifetime, I'vereally shifted my view from one
of, um, you know, religion as aplace that I go to experience
(05:31):
the divine in a community spacewith other people like at church
toward just how I live my dailylife and the, from when I wake
up in the morning, you know, amI approaching my life as a
sacred gift?
And do I express my beliefs andvalues and everything that I do,
or is it just something that's aset apart time in my life?
(05:53):
And that, that distance betweenthe, um, set apart in the way
that I live has become smaller,the older that I've, that I,
that I've become in my practiceand in my faith.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Yeah.
That's really interesting.
Um, I think of, I don't want toget too controversial with the
statement here.
There is a foundational purposeof the church or Christianity as
a religion, for example, tobring the church, to bring, you
know, Christ's teachings to theworld, like going kind of inside
(06:29):
out.
Um, and one thing we, we kind ofbump into around here and
especially in this podcast withtopics that we get to, is this
idea of reversing that flow ofkind of incorporating the
outside in, um, I thinkhistorically when you start
tracing back to some of like thedivides we're experiencing today
in our country, a lot of itbegins with, um, uh, uh,
(06:55):
Christian movement to becomemore insular because of a fear
of the outside or so-calledsecular world, um, in, in seeing
how those, those, uh, sort ofdivisions have led to conflict
and discord on a cultural levelon a societal level is, uh, it's
been interesting.
I don't, I don't know, you know,one thing we don't profess here
(07:18):
at hyphenated life is to have,you know, figured it out in how
to solve all those problems.
So I don't know if you have anythoughts about, um, you know,
historically, uh, that, thatshift, where we pulled those
things apart, um, completely.
And also, I, I just want tocomment, I do, I love your, um,
recognition that it is importantto provide opportunity for all,
(07:40):
you know, perspectives andpeople.
So to create a place wheresomeone can exist in a, you
know, a secular space isimportant too,
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Right.
And I've really become tobelieve that.
I mean, it's unfortunate thatthere's so much fear in the
culture right now, fear ofdifference and fear of someone
who might be other than myselfand their values and beliefs.
Um, I think there is a momentfor many of us who are working
(08:11):
in religion or who are religiouspractitioners, or have a deep
religious commitment where werecognize that just to go deeper
into our own faith provides thatkind of security and stability
that we need, and it's done itno longer becomes necessary to
focus externally as much on whatmight be around me that feels
(08:32):
threatening or feels like itmight destabilize me.
So like a tree, you know, reallyallowing our roots to run deep
and to connect with the deeperinsights from our traditions,
the deep practices, the, um, inthe Christian tradition, you
know, uh, as a deep commitmentto the, um, the path of Christ
(08:59):
and the insights from thetradition that really orient and
guide us in a way that we don'thave, then we don't have to be
afraid of, of someone cominginto our, our, um, space or
coming into a conversation withsomething that that's radically
different from what I mightbelieve and really in
(09:19):
Christianity, it's the residingin that heart of love that
divine love, and that reallywelcomes everyone and everything
in a sense, you know, not thatwe always have to agree with
behaviors that we'reexperiencing in other people, or
we can also recognize thatsometimes harm is done when
(09:42):
certain beliefs are, are not, um, beneficial for the community
or for, for, for, uh, ourselvesor our families, but to really
root down and, and reside deeplyin that heart of love, then then
fear kind of dissipates.
And then suddenly this threatfrom the outside feels less of,
(10:02):
um, of a danger to our wellbeing.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Well, Jamie speaking of trees, excuse me, and roots.
I was so taken by the way.
Well, first of all, that you'rea former Christian minister.
I'm very interested in knowingmore about that, but you've also
talked about how that journeyfrom, uh, and I'm filling in a
couple of blanks here, I guess,but, um, that journey from, you
(10:26):
know, being a former Christianminister to your interest in
Buddhism and how, um, yournon-human relatives influenced
and shaped you along that path,could you tell us a little bit
about that journey for you?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Sure.
So for many years, as I said, Iwas ordained in the United
church of Christ and reallyappreciated that community and
felt very, um, supported andinspired by that experience.
And over time, I developed adeep commitment to Buddhism,
(11:00):
which has to do with, um,connecting more to practice and
meditation practice inparticular, which for me really,
um, provided kind of a balanceto this way.
I was raised to focus so much onservice and so much on doing
things in the world.
(11:21):
And, um, so my grandfatherbequested, or, you know, handed
down his, his Bible to my fatherand the inscription, my
grandfather was Amish.
And then the F the familyeventually became Mennonite,
became a little bit more, um,engaged with the world.
(11:42):
And, but in this Bible, he, hewrote, you know, a quote in
there that we will do the worksof, of him that sent me until we
can work no more.
And you all might know wherethat is located in the Bible.
It's not coming to me right now,but this idea that you just
work, work, work until, youknow, there's no more time to
(12:03):
work.
The sun goes down and you restand you get up and you, and then
you go at it again.
And for me, um, the Buddhistpractice really provided an
opportunity just to rest and tobe present with myself and to
root down, as I'm saying, and,you know, in this presence of
love and compassion, and just,Intercon recognizing my
(12:27):
interconnectedness with, withall other creatures and, and
other people.
And so Buddhism really became mypath for some time.
And, and then, um, also theinsights from, from my
chaplaincy work, just engagingother religious traditions.
(12:49):
I started to recognize myself asmore inter-religious and not so
much, um, uh, Christian in asense.
So some people might refer tothat as post-Christian, or, you
know, I'll always be Christian.
I mean, I'm Christian by, um,ethnicity really.
I mean, the Mennonites arealmost an ethnicity as much as
(13:11):
they are a, um, a spiritualcommunity or religious
community.
And I always, I will alwayspractice in the Christian
tradition, but there came apoint where I no longer felt
like participating in acongregation was really my path.
And in the UCC, you know, to beordained, there's really a lot
of responsibility aroundcongregational commitment and
(13:34):
participation.
And so I've stepped away from myordination, but I still really
understand myself to beChristian.
And, and inter-religious inthat.
I also practice in the Buddhisttradition and in some, um, have
spent time with some indigenousteachers as well.
So I guess the answer is thefirst party for your question.
I can try to take on the secondpart, if you like about the
(13:57):
earth-based.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah.
I would love to hear more aboutthat.
I mean, some of it, and then, um, I'm getting in over my head
here a little bit, but, youknow, one of the things that
shaped me on my own journey isCeltic Christianity and its
connection with the earth and,you know, being a Christian
pastor, um, sort of realizingthat Christ and creation are
(14:18):
symbiotic and they go togetherthey're, they don't have to be
opposed to one another.
It was just sort of this Eurekamoment for me, eight or nine
years ago.
And, you know, over the lastthree and a half years here at
pine street church, some of that, uh, sort of Celtic DNA or
Celtic Christian DNA has seepedinto our own congregational
(14:39):
identity.
Uh, I'm not, not fullyresponsible for that.
You know, David helped me outhere, but, uh, you know, we have
a Celtic cross is spiritualsymbol and, uh, what we really
do in our worship experience andour worship practice together as
a community really connects witha lot of that theology, that
(15:01):
sort of minority report ofChristianity, not the dominant
Roman narrative.
And so that's led us into someinteresting directions, I think,
over the last few years.
So yes, I would love to hear, uh, about your kind of indigenous,
uh, practice and earth basedreligious experience.
And if, if you can maybe evenconnect that to the Celtic
(15:24):
Christianity, if, if that'srelevant in your own experience.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Sure.
So I think that many of us inthis time and place who descend
from Europe are looking for waysto reconnect with our original,
um, spiritual heritage, I guessour ancestry.
I I've had many of theseconversations just over the last
(15:51):
few weeks, even.
And I participate in a group ofwomen that are, some of them are
learning, um, Gaelic songs andreally trying to recover some of
the lost, um, wisdom of our ownancestral traditions.
Um, and I think that many of ushave entry into that, that world
(16:14):
through experiencing, um, someof the insights and practices of
the surviving indigenouscommunities in North America and
South America.
And I have such deep gratitudefor some of the teachers and
communities that I've spent timewith, um, in sweat lodges and,
(16:37):
and learning some traditionalpractices from teachers that
have been willing to offer thatand really see that as kind of
an entry into my own, you know,motivation and understanding of
what, what I might be able toconnect to in my Celtic
tradition is one side of myfamily is Celtic and, and also,
(16:59):
um, you know, descends fromIreland and Scotland.
And, um, yeah, I think thatthere is a lot of, um,
motivation these days for peopleto recognize that at some point
we were really displaced fromsome of those insights about how
to be in right relationship withthe earth.
(17:20):
You know, most of us from Europewere, were fleeing from
something and often, um, therewas trauma involved in how that
happened through colonizationand through displacement.
I was just thinking recently andreading recently about Ireland
and how, um, tragic it is thatreally, if you, if you look at
(17:43):
pictures of Ireland, I haven'tbeen there myself.
I'd love to go, go visit at somepoint, that's a goal of
pilgrimage coming up in
Speaker 1 (17:50):
2022.
You can join us.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Well, I may just do that, but, you know, there's,
it's tragic that in Ireland youlook at photos and there are
these rolling green Hills, butin one of this, these, um, I've
read a book recently about,about the history of Ireland
and, and really Ireland used tobe covered in forests.
You know, there were denseforests and now there's less
(18:15):
than 1% in my understanding ofthe old growth forest left and
in Ireland.
And that was one of thestrategies of colonization was
to clear, cut everything andsend it back to, you know, the,
the, um, wherever, I guess itwas great Britain and or
wherever the wood was going, youknow, to support, support the
(18:37):
colonial efforts.
And, um, and then that reallykind of broke the spirit of the
people in my understanding.
And that's often howcolonization works in, in, um,
kind of stepping in and, um, andoccupying, you know, lands that
(19:00):
were previously really held by,by people that had deep
spiritual practices andspiritual communities and deep
relationship to the earth.
And so for, for myself, as a, asa European American who, you
know, didn't grow up with any,any conversations about Celtic
(19:20):
spirituality or I'm sure therewere things that, you know, like
herbalism was sort of in myfamily gardening.
And I'm recognizing that, thatprobably, you know, comes from
this ancestral lineage and inways that I wasn't aware of as a
child.
And so trying to recover thatis, it feels a little bit
daunting at times, but there'ssuch beautiful opportunity to,
(19:43):
to just begin reading andexploring and, and learning
about our own heritage and howthat can help us repair this
time that we're in of, um,really broken relationship with
the natural world that is soevident in, you know, climate
change and all of the otherproblems that we're facing
during this time that, thatwe're living through
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Beautifully said, I, um, I might be on a little side
tangent here, but, um, I alsowas kind of curious too about,
you know, when you think aboutChristianity and Buddhism, I
know that, uh, we're in Boulder,Colorado, even in our own
congregation, we have somebeautiful humans who practice
Buddhism and yet find a homehere at pine street church in
(20:27):
Boulder.
I wondered kind of what youwould say about Christianity and
Buddhism and you know, what theyhave at sort of a basic level.
What do the two traditions haveto learn from each other?
And, and I guess I'm probablyinferring a little bit, uh, here
with this related question ofare the Buddha and the Christ
(20:48):
complimentary.
I was kind of thinking about,um, I believe it was living
Buddha, living Christ, tech, nothon.
I think that was the title of itmany years ago.
I was just so fascinated andtaken with that book, but could
you say a little bit about, uh,of your own experience and
wisdom around Christianity andBuddhism and how the two could
really benefit from one anotherand the wisdom that, that both
(21:13):
traditions have to teach eachother?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Sure.
So I can really only speak frommy own experience.
You know, there are manydifferent manifestations of
Christianity and Buddhism, andsome of them I'm familiar with
and other, other, um, otherparts of the traditions that I'm
less familiar with, but in myown experiences, as I was
saying, the opportunity toreally, um, move inward with
(21:39):
Buddhist practice and explore,um, self-compassion and the
importance of presence, andreally contemplative deep
contemplative practice guidedin, you know, if you're in a
room I've been on a few retreatsand you're in a room of people
(22:00):
and they're all practicingtogether in silence, and just
the opportunity to, to allowmyself to settle down and to
connect with, um, this feelingof interdependence that I belong
to something so much larger thanmyself and this developing these
(22:22):
insights and practices thatBuddhism is so, so powerfully,
um, invites, you know, us toreally feel the ways that our
compassion can connect us toeverything and all human beings
everywhere and all beings andall, every part of nature is it
was such a beautiful opportunityfor me growing up in a tradition
(22:44):
that was more focused on verbalprayers and community worship.
And there was silence, you know,for sure at times it wasn't that
, um, there weren't some reallysagely, you know, saintly kind
of silent, um, why souls in thattradition, but I think Buddhism
(23:05):
has a particular, uh, technologyalmost for, and some people
really consider Buddhism to bemore of a science than a
religion.
It's really not a religion inthe same way that Christianity
is.
And so it's accessible to anyonewho wants to practice you, you
know, you get your meditationapp and you sit down and you,
you, you can do it really fromany religious or cultural
(23:29):
commitment, um, unless there's ataboo against that for some
reason.
And so that invitation to reallyexplore the inner world, I
think, is, is what Buddhism mayhave to offer Christianity.
Although, you know, I, I, I knowthat Christ's, um, time in the
desert and the desert fathers, Ithink would share some
(23:52):
similarities with, with Buddhistpractice practitioners and
practices.
Um, and then as far as whatChristianity might have to offer
Buddhism, you know, I'm not, I'mnot sure how to answer that
other than I think some peoplereally appreciate the communal
worship and the opportunity formusic and the public expression
of song and shared, um,aspirations and, you know, not
(24:17):
everyone feels that sense ofcommunity and connection, maybe
in a, a song house where there'smostly silent meditation, some
teachings, and not as muchopportunity for the, um, you
know, more artistic expressionof faith.
I suppose.
I think that a lot of peopleappreciate both opportunities,
(24:37):
but Jesus and the teachings ofJesus and the teachings of
Buddha, as you say, are, arecertainly very, very similar in
a lot of ways.
And I would say that in, in allof the worlds, um, traditions
that have really stood the testof time and have integrity,
there's it always comes back tothis heart of compassion and
(25:00):
love, love for self, for theother, for the, the natural
world for, um, you know, justgenerating this love into the
world.
That's so healing and, um,transformative and really puts
us in the, um, this relationshipto others that makes us thrive
(25:24):
as a human community, regardlessof which tradition we might be
becoming from
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Jamie earlier, you mentioned, uh, your, your
experience and journey throughchaplaincy play has played a
major role in the diversity ofyour spiritual Allity
spirituality, theologicalworldview.
Um, and you are the director ofNaropa center for contemplative
chaplaincy.
(25:51):
And so a couple things, one,Andrew and I were having a
conversation before trying tolike, kind of Def define what
chaplaincy is, what makes achaplain different from a pastor
or, or, uh, things like that.
So one, could you tell us whatchaplaincy is and to, um, this,
this idea of contemplativechaplaincy in the work that
(26:13):
you're doing there at Naropa?
And tell us a bit about that.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Well, this question of what is chaplaincy is
actually something that thefield of professional chaplaincy
is really considering these daysas the boundaries of, um,
traditional chaplaincy areexpanding and, and really
there's a lot of, of expansiongoing on in the field right now.
(26:38):
So I could give you my answerand it might be different from
the answer you would hearelsewhere.
Like if you're asking what is apastor, you might also have
multiple, um, answers,iterations coming towards you on
that, that as well.
Um, so I would say thatchaplaincy traditionally has to
(27:00):
do with, um, those who offerspiritual or pastoral care out
in secular settings, orsometimes religious communities,
but are identified as peoplethat are able to respond well to
crisis and transition, includingdeath and dying, dying.
And times when, you know, peopleare maybe really destabilized or
(27:25):
there's traumas or other kindsof challenges that people face.
And, um, so functionalchaplaincy is really mostly
takes place in healthcaresettings these days in hospitals
and hospices, but here atNaropa.
So the center for contemplativechaplaincy has a few different
(27:45):
commitments that we areexploring.
And one is this deep, um,contemplative practice, this
orientation towards deepcontemplative practice, so that
we are attending to our own andwellbeing.
And as we are going into thesespaces of crisis through
(28:05):
contemplative practice, eithermeditation or in Christianity,
we have folks that are committedto centering prayer, or, you
know, in, in all of thetraditions that, uh, chaplains
might represent, there are deepcontemplative practices that we
are working to integrate intoour practice of chaplaincy, so
(28:28):
that when you're approaching,you know, the emergency room and
maybe there's a death or acrisis, that's happened to be
able to have that resource ofcontemplation before you go into
the space and to develop,develop it well enough.
So that in that space, you'rereally cultivating this
open-hearted generous sense ofwellbeing.
(28:51):
That is, is well practiced andwell honed so that when you go
home at the end of the day, youknow, especially during the
pandemic, this is reallyimportant for chaplains and
other, other healthcare folksthese days.
So that at the end of the day,you're, you're still well and
well-supported, and not goinghome, you know, with burnout and
(29:15):
yeah, moral distress and otherforms of, um, just exhaustion.
And so the contemplative partof, of what we're doing is, is
really taking seriouslycontemplative insights and
weaving them all through thecurriculum.
And, and then the master ofdivinity program here at
Neurobic.
But, you know, they get thedeeper, the students have of the
(29:36):
deeper Buddhist practice and,and training, but our, um,
students are from many religiousbackgrounds and traditions.
And so they're learning how tobe really, um, stable, reliable,
generous, you know, availablechaplains to all of these
(29:56):
situations, as things seem to beintensifying in the world in
certain ways with the crisesthat we're facing.
Um, and we are also reallyexploring the boundaries of
chaplaincy.
So what chaplaincy can mean inthe world.
So we have an eco chaplaincyinternship that's developing
that has to do with healing, therelationship between people in
(30:19):
the land and doing somecommunity grief rituals that,
um, internship position has, um,it's a creative, creative
opportunity to explore healingthis relationship between the
human and the non-human andthat, because that is the nature
of the crisis we're in, we seechaplains as having something
(30:41):
particular to offer into that,that space.
And then other opportunitieslike movement chaplaincy.
We had a chaplain who wasassigned to the ice detention
center and the, um, sanctuarymovement.
And so she would take care ofpeople that are in sanctuary in
Boulder and Denver, and thenthere's the people in the
detention.
And so there's a lot ofopportunities for chaplaincy to,
(31:05):
um, move out into the world morewhere the, these situations of
crisis and, and transition arehappening and out of the
institutions a bit.
And that's what we're exploringit at Naropa with our
contemplative approach to, tothis work.
So that we're, we're healthy,you know, and well, as we're, as
(31:25):
we're doing it as, and as we'rerecovering from some of the
things that we experience
Speaker 1 (31:29):
As you talk, that is really fascinating and really a
much more expansiveunderstanding of chaplaincy
David than what we were justkind of riffing off of before we
hopped on with you, Jamie.
But I I'm really fascinated in,and I think it's a fascinating
direction that you're taking asyou expand, um, the notion of
chaplaincy and even getting intoother ways of healing traumas.
(31:53):
You've talked a little bitabout, or have read a little bit
about, uh, you know, theemotional damage, the
psychological damage caused bysexual assault or war, um,
crime, violent crime, or theirtraumas.
And you have, uh, done somestudy and research around
whether M D M a assisted therapycan help heal some of those
(32:16):
traumas.
Could you tell us more aboutwhat you're learning in this
realm and what some of your ownresearch is leading you to
around, uh, some of these othertraumas and, and therapies that
can help with that?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Sure.
So my path with psychedelictherapies began with my own
healing journey.
So after having worked as achaplain for many years, I
experienced myself, Iexperienced burnout, and this
was maybe 10 years ago, I wasstruggling with, um, chaplaincy
(32:51):
can be really intense because ofthe situations that we are
facing.
And healthcare is a prettystressful environment, you know,
to work these days, like many ofthe environments that people are
working every day and workinglong hours.
And, and so I decided for myselfthat I would try to heal, I also
(33:13):
had, was diagnosed with a reallylow grade cancer, which
fortunately it was easy totreat, but it was really a wake
up call for me around how am Iliving my life and what do I
need to do to heal some of this,um, overwork.
And, and so I went down to Peruand I experienced an Iowasca
(33:34):
ceremony because I knew thatpeople were having experiences
of, of healing and, and beingable to do some deep, um, some
deeper work than is possible intraditional therapeutic context
sometimes.
And so I went down to Peru and Iexperienced a lot of healing
there.
(33:54):
And really one of the messages Ireceived that was so powerful
for me was that this, um,beliefs that I was carrying
about scarcity, that there's notenough, you know, there's not
enough for me that I have towork harder than everyone else,
and really just have everycredential and degree.
(34:15):
And that, that, you know, that,that would ensure my wellbeing
in the world.
That that message was really notserving me well.
And in the ceremony, Iexperienced this, um, kind of
just sickness in my body.
I could feel it in myself, in mybody, like the implication of
this belief, I can feel how, youknow, uncomfortable and just how
(34:39):
it was making me sick.
And so that I was able to, um,to heal from, you know, make a
commitment to try living in avery different way.
And that is, um, a lot of why Ichose Buddhist meditation as one
of the ways to, to really, um,recover from that always doing
in the world.
(34:59):
And, and then recognizing these,these, um, uh, ancestral
messages that come througharound scarcity that many of us
have that, you know, there's notenough, or maybe, you know, some
generations ago there was afamine or some kind of something
in this message is passed downthrough the family.
And so healing some of that aswell, and moving toward just a
(35:22):
more healthy way of being in theworld.
And so that's how I ended up,um, eventually being part of
this MTMA therapy trial inBoulder, which is an FDA study,
and we're using, um, you know,MDME assisted therapy to treat
people with PTSD who havereally, a lot of them have
(35:43):
really tried, tried many othermethods for healing from their
traumas and have really notfound relief.
And in this, in the FDA studiesin those phase two, we found
that 67% of people that receivedMTMA in the trial a year after
they received the therapy, theyno longer report it PTSD.
(36:06):
And so what that means is thathaving a more embodied, um, S
sometimes mystical, but notalways, but a really
transformative experience wherein each of these medicines,
MTMA, Iowasca, you know,siliciden, they each have their
own way of working with peopleand therapies that support that
(36:31):
work, that get more at the rootof the root causes of these
illnesses and, and mentalillnesses and Tron PTSD
responses, so that we can sortof go to the root of it and deal
with the source and begin thispath of healing.
And it's a complicatedconversation because they each
(36:53):
are, are so unique in their ownway.
But I have, um, interest in allof these paths, I suppose, and
unfortunate to be able to beable to be on a, on a, um, a
research study here in Boulder,that is a part of this, this
beautiful movement towardhelping people heal from, from
(37:13):
traumas.
You know, that sometimes aremultiple, you know, go over
multiple generations or patternsthat are really hard to shift
otherwise.
Well, I'm so glad
Speaker 1 (37:27):
That that your own personal journey of healing has
led you to this research andthis kind of cutting edge
research, uh, to my ears.
Um, I, I want to a couple ofquick things as we head to a
close one, is I, is it, how doyou pronounce that word for
those who aren't familiar withIowasca retreats or, or
practices, could you say alittle bit what that ceremony
(37:49):
entails or what it could, whatit, what it could look like for
people, uh, who are looking forsome deep healing in their own
lives?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Right.
Well, it's important to be very,um, you know, discerning about
places that you might, um, thatyou might go for an experience
like that.
Um, just like any really deepspiritual and, um, therapeutic
experience you'd want to bereally, really careful in
discerning.
(38:18):
So I would maybe direct you tochacruna is a wonderful place to
kind of plug into what might behappening in communities that
are understood as ethical andnot exploiting the indigenous
communities, where these, theseceremonies are taking place, or
maybe maps, you know, connectingwith the maps website, and you
(38:41):
can become a member of maps andreceive information about
clinicians that are reallyadvocating for these, these
therapies.
Um, but the ceremonies are, it'sreally hard to describe, you
know, there's depends on which,which, um, uh, ceremonial
context you, there are Iowascaceremonies in various cultural
(39:04):
contexts in the Peruvian contextthat I experienced with the
Shapebos, um, healers, there was, um, you know, a lot of music
and singing.
So they're healing songs thatare sung sung to people that are
in search of healing andtraditionally, um, the, they
call them, you know, Pasaheroes, the, um, the people that
(39:26):
are visiting the center forhealing traditionally would
wouldn't actually ingest anyIowasca, maybe just, uh, a bit
to connect with it.
But, um, these days there'sopportunity to either experience
the Iowasca yourself or just tosit and receive the healing and
these beautiful songs that comefrom plant medicine, traditions,
(39:49):
the Shapebos healers learn fromthe plants, how to heal people.
And then they partner with the,the psychedelic, um, I will the
medicines, and really try towork in the energetic field of
the person who's, who's sick andthis kind of message that I
received about, you know, how,uh, uh, uh, uh, mental belief is
(40:14):
impacting the, my body, youknow, as something I think that
people commonly experience and Iwould ask is also, uh, a
purgative.
And so, you know, that can bedifficult for people if you're
not comfortable like vomiting orthe vomiting is common and
shaking or crying, or there'sthe sense of like the medicine
(40:34):
going into your body and thenreleasing toxic influences and
things that are impeding, youknow, health and wellbeing.
But they're these a lot of thepractitioners use many other
medicines as well, many plantmedicines, and Iowasca is one of
the healing modalities, butthere are many ways that people
find healing for ancestral, youknow, traumatic patterns that
(40:58):
move through ancestral lineages,um, for beliefs that are not
supporting us, including how wemight be harming others and
illnesses in our bodies.
They're like the, they're likethe surgeons of the, um, of the
Amazon, you know, and they,they're, they're very
sophisticated in what they do.
So I hesitate to even try torepresent it in just a few
(41:21):
comments, you know?
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah.
I, I think, um, I remember thatthe, I own a healing prayer
going back to Celtic, uh,spirituality quickly.
We use a lot, uh, and use a lotin pastoral care practice with
people going to surgeries.
But, uh, and by the way, the, Iown a healing prayer.
I love this prayer.
I was in Iona when, uh, my firstnight in Scotland ever, I've
(41:45):
spent in the hospital and thenext and the next day, uh, I got
to Iona and it happened to be,uh, the serve, the, the healing
service of the week and the Ionacommunity at the Abbey.
And they pray this beautifulprayer with people from around
the world.
And you get in a circle with 10people and you kneel down and
they prayer that, you know,everybody's says this prayer,
(42:06):
and it's a spirit of the living,God present with us now, inter
you body mind, and spirit andheal.
You have all that harms you.
And it was just such a powerful,uh, just a symmetrical moment of
my life going through this kindof deep medical experience, then
showing up at Iona the next day,and this is all happening.
(42:28):
But one of the things I thinkabout certainly in Western
Christianity and I run into thisand bump into this a lot in my
own kind of personal journey iswe're so word-based right.
And how far can words reallytake us?
And so what you're describing isthis kind of deep holistic, uh,
even though you talked aboutsinging being part of the
(42:48):
healing, there is a kind of fullbodied experience of that, that
I think at least in my corner ofthe vineyard in Christianity is
really missing is how do we, howdo we find that full bodied
healing that people are sodeeply longing for when we're
such a word centric, uh, kind oftradition where, you know,
(43:13):
spirituality's lodged betweenthe ears.
I think that's where I bump intothe limits of my own kind of
faith and, and system.
And I know there are many waysto healing, but I think that's a
predominant, uh, kind of form inChristianity that I just wish we
could, uh, uh, in songwritinglingo, pop the quiff, David
(43:33):
David, about how to get beyondthat in some way.
And I think there's a lot ofdeep longing about that.
We just don't, we don't quiteknow how to do that.
And how far can we go with thatis what you were just saying.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Yeah, that's beautifully said and really
looking to the plant teachersand the other than human
teachers for those insights,because the plants, you know,
are so much older than humanityand they have these medicines
and songs to teach us andinsights about how to be in the
world.
(44:07):
They've, you know, evolved overall of these millions of years
and they are really seen aselders in these traditions.
And so to open ourselves, Ithink to the other than human is
part of that embodied experienceand to really connect with the
land through maybe offering, youknow, our love and our
(44:28):
commitment to the land that'ssupporting us and relearning how
to be in right relationship withthe trees and the plants, and to
really see them as our elders,instead of something that is a
resource for us to just be, youknow, using for our own benefit,
I think is some of the, the, theinsights from those cultures,
(44:48):
cultural contexts that we haveunfortunately lost, you know, in
our, in our modern, um, NorthAmerican, um, dominant culture.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
That's fascinating.
Jamie, thank you so much forbeing on with us today.
I wish I, I wish we could justkeep going and going here cause
there's so many lanes that wecould choose.
Um, and maybe, maybe we couldhave you on again and dive
deeper into one of those lanes,but, um, thank you for being
with us on hyphenated lifetoday.
And, um, is there, I don't knowif there's anything that you
(45:22):
would want to point any of ourlisteners towards any particular
work you're doing, um, thing,any organizations you're
involved in that you'd want topoint people towards to find
more information or how theymight get involved.
Some of these things that arereally fascinating to me, this
idea of eco chaplaincy, you know, um, helping, helping to heal
the relationship betweenhumanity and the earth.
(45:46):
Um, yeah.
Is there any, any place you'dlike to send our listeners?
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Well, I mentioned, um , chacruna C H a C R U N a.
They're a wonderful organizationfor exploring, um, plant
medicines and psychedelictherapies from a really ethical
and, um, plant-based, uh,approach to that conversation.
And then the center forcontemplative chaplaincy, we
(46:12):
have a lot of, um, information,you know, available as our
websites, developing it in aRopa.
So I might direct you to thoseplaces for now.
And, um, just appreciate beinghere with you, both and hearing
about your co CelticChristianity endeavors, and, um,
you're right down the street.
(46:33):
So it's about time that we had achance to talk with each other.
And I appreciate the opportunity
Speaker 3 (46:37):
You so much for joining us.
It's my pleasure.
Hyphenated life it's productionof pine street church in
Boulder, Colorado hosted byDavid[inaudible] and Andrew
Doherty produced by Phil Normanexecutive producer.
Alexey Molden special, thanks totoday's guest, the Leo Hill
(47:00):
trust of Boulder, Colorado, andpine street church.
If today's episode has inspired,you reach out to us at
hyphenated life on our Facebook,Instagram, and Twitter pages.
You can also findus@hyphenatedlife.org.
If you are looking for aspiritual community, we'd love
to join you on that journey.
Go to pine street, church.net,to find out more
Speaker 4 (47:30):
Podcast where we talk about what should I say?
And other what would be a better
Speaker 5 (47:40):
That's right.
That's what I was thinking.
We could just type it out.
Welcome everybody to hyphenated life.
We're joined today by Dr.
Jamie beachy.
She holds a PhD in religiousstudies from the university of
Denver and the aisle of schoolof theology and the masters of
divinity from Pacific school ofreligion in Berkeley,
California.
She has worked as a chaplain.
She is a certified spiritualcare educator and ethics
(00:20):
consultant in diverse contexts,including academic medication
centers, trauma, hospitals,hospice, and palliative care
settings.
She has an inter religiousbackground as a former Christian
minister with a deep interest inBuddhism and earth based
indigenous practices thatemerged through engaging the
(00:41):
wisdom of care seekers,colleagues, students, and what
she calls non-human relatives.
Uh, she directs the Naropacenter for contemplative
chaplaincy, and, uh, she is alsodoing some pretty fascinating
trauma and healing work, uh, asa sub investigator.
And co-therapists for the mapssponsored phase three MTMA
(01:03):
assisted therapy research studyin Boulder, Colorado.
For those of you who don't knowwhat maps stands for, that is
multidisciplinary associationfor psychedelic studies.
We're going to be talking abouther own journey today, uh, both
personally and professionallyvocationally and the work that
she is doing today here inBoulder, Colorado at Naropa,
(01:26):
Jamie beachy, welcome tohyphenated life underfilled to
be with you.
So, uh, I would love to starthere today, and that is just,
uh, I probably use the wordcurious too much, David, but I
am curious about Jamie, whatyour religious and spiritual
upbringing was like, what canyou share about that with our
(01:47):
listeners today?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
So I grew up in Denver and was raised in the
Mennonite tradition, which, um,is a pretty traditional
denomination within theChristian tradition and the
focus.
There was a lot of focus in ourcommunity on work and service.
(02:08):
So I'm grateful for thatopportunity to really understand
myself as a person of service inthe world.
I also really appreciate themusic, you know, that the
Mennonite church offers to theworld.
And those are some of the thingsthat I remember most fondly,
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, Jamie, um, you know, our podcast premise, and
we talk about this in a lot ofepisodes, but a big premise is
to bring together the so-called,um, secular and sacred spheres.
Um, and one of our go-to, uh,quotes about that as Madeline
Lingle, the wrinkle in timeauthor, who said there is
(02:50):
nothing so secular that itcannot be sacred.
What would you say about this,uh, binary and how it has
contributed or not to, and yourexperience or expert opinion to,
you know, religion beingabstracted or even devalued in
public discourse in popularculture.
(03:12):
So this whole secular sacredsphere, what, what do you think
about, about that premise?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, as a chaplain, I've always been a person who
represents a religioustradition.
You know, for many years, theChristian tradition was I was
ordained in the United church ofChrist.
And so in chaplaincy, we reallybring the insights from our
traditions into secularcontexts.
(03:41):
And so this question is reallyimportant for chaplaincy and how
I would maybe approach it is tosay that, you know, on the
publics, in the public sphere,it's important to, I think,
value secular engagement andsecular discourse because people
(04:01):
are coming from multiplereligious perspectives and the
separation of church and state,you know, is actually something
that is really foundational tothe traditional Mennonite
tradition, you know, church andthe Anabaptists.
The way that I grew up was verymuch, um, you know, that they
should be separate in the publicsphere, but then when it comes
(04:22):
to, to private practice and theway that we live in the world,
um, I really don't see too muchof a division between, I would
perhaps, um, reiterate whatMadeline Lingle is saying, that
there, there really isn't, um, aclear distinction in my mind
between the secular and thesacred and the way that I live
(04:43):
my life.
But when I encounter people thathave different kinds of
commitments, then it's importantthat, you know, and when it
comes to our, our, our commonlaws and the way that we do
things publicly as a community,then it would be important to
have a secular spaces wheremultiple perspectives can really
be, be appreciated and, and havespace to, to, um, express,
(05:09):
express their insights andvalues and commitments.
And so I, um, but for mepersonally, really, I think
over, over my lifetime, I'vereally shifted my view from one
of, um, you know, religion as aplace that I go to experience
(05:31):
the divine in a community spacewith other people like at church
toward just how I live my dailylife and the, from when I wake
up in the morning, you know, amI approaching my life as a
sacred gift?
And do I express my beliefs andvalues and everything that I do,
or is it just something that's aset apart time in my life?
(05:53):
And that, that distance betweenthe, um, set apart in the way
that I live has become smaller,the older that I've, that I,
that I've become in my practiceand in my faith.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Yeah.
That's really interesting.
Um, I think of, I don't want toget too controversial with the
statement here.
There is a foundational purposeof the church or Christianity as
a religion, for example, tobring the church, to bring, you
know, Christ's teachings to theworld, like going kind of inside
(06:29):
out.
Um, and one thing we, we kind ofbump into around here and
especially in this podcast withtopics that we get to, is this
idea of reversing that flow ofkind of incorporating the
outside in, um, I thinkhistorically when you start
tracing back to some of like thedivides we're experiencing today
in our country, a lot of itbegins with, um, uh, uh,
(06:55):
Christian movement to becomemore insular because of a fear
of the outside or so-calledsecular world, um, in, in seeing
how those, those, uh, sort ofdivisions have led to conflict
and discord on a cultural levelon a societal level is, uh, it's
been interesting.
I don't, I don't know, you know,one thing we don't profess here
(07:18):
at hyphenated life is to have,you know, figured it out in how
to solve all those problems.
So I don't know if you have anythoughts about, um, you know,
historically, uh, that, thatshift, where we pulled those
things apart, um, completely.
And also, I, I just want tocomment, I do, I love your, um,
recognition that it is importantto provide opportunity for all,
(07:40):
you know, perspectives andpeople.
So to create a place wheresomeone can exist in a, you
know, a secular space isimportant too,
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Right.
And I've really become tobelieve that.
I mean, it's unfortunate thatthere's so much fear in the
culture right now, fear ofdifference and fear of someone
who might be other than myselfand their values and beliefs.
Um, I think there is a momentfor many of us who are working
(08:11):
in religion or who are religiouspractitioners, or have a deep
religious commitment where werecognize that just to go deeper
into our own faith provides thatkind of security and stability
that we need, and it's done itno longer becomes necessary to
focus externally as much on whatmight be around me that feels
(08:32):
threatening or feels like itmight destabilize me.
So like a tree, you know, reallyallowing our roots to run deep
and to connect with the deeperinsights from our traditions,
the deep practices, the, um, inthe Christian tradition, you
know, uh, as a deep commitmentto the, um, the path of Christ
(08:59):
and the insights from thetradition that really orient and
guide us in a way that we don'thave, then we don't have to be
afraid of, of someone cominginto our, our, um, space or
coming into a conversation withsomething that that's radically
different from what I mightbelieve and really in
(09:19):
Christianity, it's the residingin that heart of love that
divine love, and that reallywelcomes everyone and everything
in a sense, you know, not thatwe always have to agree with
behaviors that we'reexperiencing in other people, or
we can also recognize thatsometimes harm is done when
(09:42):
certain beliefs are, are not, um, beneficial for the community
or for, for, for, uh, ourselvesor our families, but to really
root down and, and reside deeplyin that heart of love, then then
fear kind of dissipates.
And then suddenly this threatfrom the outside feels less of,
(10:02):
um, of a danger to our wellbeing.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Well, Jamie speaking of trees, excuse me, and roots.
I was so taken by the way.
Well, first of all, that you'rea former Christian minister.
I'm very interested in knowingmore about that, but you've also
talked about how that journeyfrom, uh, and I'm filling in a
couple of blanks here, I guess,but, um, that journey from, you
(10:26):
know, being a former Christianminister to your interest in
Buddhism and how, um, yournon-human relatives influenced
and shaped you along that path,could you tell us a little bit
about that journey for you?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Sure.
So for many years, as I said, Iwas ordained in the United
church of Christ and reallyappreciated that community and
felt very, um, supported andinspired by that experience.
And over time, I developed adeep commitment to Buddhism,
(11:00):
which has to do with, um,connecting more to practice and
meditation practice inparticular, which for me really,
um, provided kind of a balanceto this way.
I was raised to focus so much onservice and so much on doing
things in the world.
(11:21):
And, um, so my grandfatherbequested, or, you know, handed
down his, his Bible to my fatherand the inscription, my
grandfather was Amish.
And then the F the familyeventually became Mennonite,
became a little bit more, um,engaged with the world.
(11:42):
And, but in this Bible, he, hewrote, you know, a quote in
there that we will do the worksof, of him that sent me until we
can work no more.
And you all might know wherethat is located in the Bible.
It's not coming to me right now,but this idea that you just
work, work, work until, youknow, there's no more time to
(12:03):
work.
The sun goes down and you restand you get up and you, and then
you go at it again.
And for me, um, the Buddhistpractice really provided an
opportunity just to rest and tobe present with myself and to
root down, as I'm saying, and,you know, in this presence of
love and compassion, and just,Intercon recognizing my
(12:27):
interconnectedness with, withall other creatures and, and
other people.
And so Buddhism really became mypath for some time.
And, and then, um, also theinsights from, from my
chaplaincy work, just engagingother religious traditions.
(12:49):
I started to recognize myself asmore inter-religious and not so
much, um, uh, Christian in asense.
So some people might refer tothat as post-Christian, or, you
know, I'll always be Christian.
I mean, I'm Christian by, um,ethnicity really.
I mean, the Mennonites arealmost an ethnicity as much as
(13:11):
they are a, um, a spiritualcommunity or religious
community.
And I always, I will alwayspractice in the Christian
tradition, but there came apoint where I no longer felt
like participating in acongregation was really my path.
And in the UCC, you know, to beordained, there's really a lot
of responsibility aroundcongregational commitment and
(13:34):
participation.
And so I've stepped away from myordination, but I still really
understand myself to beChristian.
And, and inter-religious inthat.
I also practice in the Buddhisttradition and in some, um, have
spent time with some indigenousteachers as well.
So I guess the answer is thefirst party for your question.
I can try to take on the secondpart, if you like about the
(13:57):
earth-based.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah.
I would love to hear more aboutthat.
I mean, some of it, and then, um, I'm getting in over my head
here a little bit, but, youknow, one of the things that
shaped me on my own journey isCeltic Christianity and its
connection with the earth and,you know, being a Christian
pastor, um, sort of realizingthat Christ and creation are
(14:18):
symbiotic and they go togetherthey're, they don't have to be
opposed to one another.
It was just sort of this Eurekamoment for me, eight or nine
years ago.
And, you know, over the lastthree and a half years here at
pine street church, some of that, uh, sort of Celtic DNA or
Celtic Christian DNA has seepedinto our own congregational
(14:39):
identity.
Uh, I'm not, not fullyresponsible for that.
You know, David helped me outhere, but, uh, you know, we have
a Celtic cross is spiritualsymbol and, uh, what we really
do in our worship experience andour worship practice together as
a community really connects witha lot of that theology, that
(15:01):
sort of minority report ofChristianity, not the dominant
Roman narrative.
And so that's led us into someinteresting directions, I think,
over the last few years.
So yes, I would love to hear, uh, about your kind of indigenous,
uh, practice and earth basedreligious experience.
And if, if you can maybe evenconnect that to the Celtic
(15:24):
Christianity, if, if that'srelevant in your own experience.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Sure.
So I think that many of us inthis time and place who descend
from Europe are looking for waysto reconnect with our original,
um, spiritual heritage, I guessour ancestry.
I I've had many of theseconversations just over the last
(15:51):
few weeks, even.
And I participate in a group ofwomen that are, some of them are
learning, um, Gaelic songs andreally trying to recover some of
the lost, um, wisdom of our ownancestral traditions.
Um, and I think that many of ushave entry into that, that world
(16:14):
through experiencing, um, someof the insights and practices of
the surviving indigenouscommunities in North America and
South America.
And I have such deep gratitudefor some of the teachers and
communities that I've spent timewith, um, in sweat lodges and,
(16:37):
and learning some traditionalpractices from teachers that
have been willing to offer thatand really see that as kind of
an entry into my own, you know,motivation and understanding of
what, what I might be able toconnect to in my Celtic
tradition is one side of myfamily is Celtic and, and also,
(16:59):
um, you know, descends fromIreland and Scotland.
And, um, yeah, I think thatthere is a lot of, um,
motivation these days for peopleto recognize that at some point
we were really displaced fromsome of those insights about how
to be in right relationship withthe earth.
(17:20):
You know, most of us from Europewere, were fleeing from
something and often, um, therewas trauma involved in how that
happened through colonizationand through displacement.
I was just thinking recently andreading recently about Ireland
and how, um, tragic it is thatreally, if you, if you look at
(17:43):
pictures of Ireland, I haven'tbeen there myself.
I'd love to go, go visit at somepoint, that's a goal of
pilgrimage coming up in
Speaker 1 (17:50):
2022.
You can join us.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Well, I may just do that, but, you know, there's,
it's tragic that in Ireland youlook at photos and there are
these rolling green Hills, butin one of this, these, um, I've
read a book recently about,about the history of Ireland
and, and really Ireland used tobe covered in forests.
You know, there were denseforests and now there's less
(18:15):
than 1% in my understanding ofthe old growth forest left and
in Ireland.
And that was one of thestrategies of colonization was
to clear, cut everything andsend it back to, you know, the,
the, um, wherever, I guess itwas great Britain and or
wherever the wood was going, youknow, to support, support the
(18:37):
colonial efforts.
And, um, and then that reallykind of broke the spirit of the
people in my understanding.
And that's often howcolonization works in, in, um,
kind of stepping in and, um, andoccupying, you know, lands that
(19:00):
were previously really held by,by people that had deep
spiritual practices andspiritual communities and deep
relationship to the earth.
And so for, for myself, as a, asa European American who, you
know, didn't grow up with any,any conversations about Celtic
(19:20):
spirituality or I'm sure therewere things that, you know, like
herbalism was sort of in myfamily gardening.
And I'm recognizing that, thatprobably, you know, comes from
this ancestral lineage and inways that I wasn't aware of as a
child.
And so trying to recover thatis, it feels a little bit
daunting at times, but there'ssuch beautiful opportunity to,
(19:43):
to just begin reading andexploring and, and learning
about our own heritage and howthat can help us repair this
time that we're in of, um,really broken relationship with
the natural world that is soevident in, you know, climate
change and all of the otherproblems that we're facing
during this time that, thatwe're living through
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Beautifully said, I, um, I might be on a little side
tangent here, but, um, I alsowas kind of curious too about,
you know, when you think aboutChristianity and Buddhism, I
know that, uh, we're in Boulder,Colorado, even in our own
congregation, we have somebeautiful humans who practice
Buddhism and yet find a homehere at pine street church in
(20:27):
Boulder.
I wondered kind of what youwould say about Christianity and
Buddhism and you know, what theyhave at sort of a basic level.
What do the two traditions haveto learn from each other?
And, and I guess I'm probablyinferring a little bit, uh, here
with this related question ofare the Buddha and the Christ
(20:48):
complimentary.
I was kind of thinking about,um, I believe it was living
Buddha, living Christ, tech, nothon.
I think that was the title of itmany years ago.
I was just so fascinated andtaken with that book, but could
you say a little bit about, uh,of your own experience and
wisdom around Christianity andBuddhism and how the two could
really benefit from one anotherand the wisdom that, that both
(21:13):
traditions have to teach eachother?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Sure.
So I can really only speak frommy own experience.
You know, there are manydifferent manifestations of
Christianity and Buddhism, andsome of them I'm familiar with
and other, other, um, otherparts of the traditions that I'm
less familiar with, but in myown experiences, as I was
saying, the opportunity toreally, um, move inward with
(21:39):
Buddhist practice and explore,um, self-compassion and the
importance of presence, andreally contemplative deep
contemplative practice guidedin, you know, if you're in a
room I've been on a few retreatsand you're in a room of people
(22:00):
and they're all practicingtogether in silence, and just
the opportunity to, to allowmyself to settle down and to
connect with, um, this feelingof interdependence that I belong
to something so much larger thanmyself and this developing these
(22:22):
insights and practices thatBuddhism is so, so powerfully,
um, invites, you know, us toreally feel the ways that our
compassion can connect us toeverything and all human beings
everywhere and all beings andall, every part of nature is it
was such a beautiful opportunityfor me growing up in a tradition
(22:44):
that was more focused on verbalprayers and community worship.
And there was silence, you know,for sure at times it wasn't that
, um, there weren't some reallysagely, you know, saintly kind
of silent, um, why souls in thattradition, but I think Buddhism
(23:05):
has a particular, uh, technologyalmost for, and some people
really consider Buddhism to bemore of a science than a
religion.
It's really not a religion inthe same way that Christianity
is.
And so it's accessible to anyonewho wants to practice you, you
know, you get your meditationapp and you sit down and you,
you, you can do it really fromany religious or cultural
(23:29):
commitment, um, unless there's ataboo against that for some
reason.
And so that invitation to reallyexplore the inner world, I
think, is, is what Buddhism mayhave to offer Christianity.
Although, you know, I, I, I knowthat Christ's, um, time in the
desert and the desert fathers, Ithink would share some
(23:52):
similarities with, with Buddhistpractice practitioners and
practices.
Um, and then as far as whatChristianity might have to offer
Buddhism, you know, I'm not, I'mnot sure how to answer that
other than I think some peoplereally appreciate the communal
worship and the opportunity formusic and the public expression
of song and shared, um,aspirations and, you know, not
(24:17):
everyone feels that sense ofcommunity and connection, maybe
in a, a song house where there'smostly silent meditation, some
teachings, and not as muchopportunity for the, um, you
know, more artistic expressionof faith.
I suppose.
I think that a lot of peopleappreciate both opportunities,
(24:37):
but Jesus and the teachings ofJesus and the teachings of
Buddha, as you say, are, arecertainly very, very similar in
a lot of ways.
And I would say that in, in allof the worlds, um, traditions
that have really stood the testof time and have integrity,
there's it always comes back tothis heart of compassion and
(25:00):
love, love for self, for theother, for the, the natural
world for, um, you know, justgenerating this love into the
world.
That's so healing and, um,transformative and really puts
us in the, um, this relationshipto others that makes us thrive
(25:24):
as a human community, regardlessof which tradition we might be
becoming from
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Jamie earlier, you mentioned, uh, your, your
experience and journey throughchaplaincy play has played a
major role in the diversity ofyour spiritual Allity
spirituality, theologicalworldview.
Um, and you are the director ofNaropa center for contemplative
chaplaincy.
(25:51):
And so a couple things, one,Andrew and I were having a
conversation before trying tolike, kind of Def define what
chaplaincy is, what makes achaplain different from a pastor
or, or, uh, things like that.
So one, could you tell us whatchaplaincy is and to, um, this,
this idea of contemplativechaplaincy in the work that
(26:13):
you're doing there at Naropa?
And tell us a bit about that.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Well, this question of what is chaplaincy is
actually something that thefield of professional chaplaincy
is really considering these daysas the boundaries of, um,
traditional chaplaincy areexpanding and, and really
there's a lot of, of expansiongoing on in the field right now.
(26:38):
So I could give you my answerand it might be different from
the answer you would hearelsewhere.
Like if you're asking what is apastor, you might also have
multiple, um, answers,iterations coming towards you on
that, that as well.
Um, so I would say thatchaplaincy traditionally has to
(27:00):
do with, um, those who offerspiritual or pastoral care out
in secular settings, orsometimes religious communities,
but are identified as peoplethat are able to respond well to
crisis and transition, includingdeath and dying, dying.
And times when, you know, peopleare maybe really destabilized or
(27:25):
there's traumas or other kindsof challenges that people face.
And, um, so functionalchaplaincy is really mostly
takes place in healthcaresettings these days in hospitals
and hospices, but here atNaropa.
So the center for contemplativechaplaincy has a few different
(27:45):
commitments that we areexploring.
And one is this deep, um,contemplative practice, this
orientation towards deepcontemplative practice, so that
we are attending to our own andwellbeing.
And as we are going into thesespaces of crisis through
(28:05):
contemplative practice, eithermeditation or in Christianity,
we have folks that are committedto centering prayer, or, you
know, in, in all of thetraditions that, uh, chaplains
might represent, there are deepcontemplative practices that we
are working to integrate intoour practice of chaplaincy, so
(28:28):
that when you're approaching,you know, the emergency room and
maybe there's a death or acrisis, that's happened to be
able to have that resource ofcontemplation before you go into
the space and to develop,develop it well enough.
So that in that space, you'rereally cultivating this
open-hearted generous sense ofwellbeing.
(28:51):
That is, is well practiced andwell honed so that when you go
home at the end of the day, youknow, especially during the
pandemic, this is reallyimportant for chaplains and
other, other healthcare folksthese days.
So that at the end of the day,you're, you're still well and
well-supported, and not goinghome, you know, with burnout and
(29:15):
yeah, moral distress and otherforms of, um, just exhaustion.
And so the contemplative partof, of what we're doing is, is
really taking seriouslycontemplative insights and
weaving them all through thecurriculum.
And, and then the master ofdivinity program here at
Neurobic.
But, you know, they get thedeeper, the students have of the
(29:36):
deeper Buddhist practice and,and training, but our, um,
students are from many religiousbackgrounds and traditions.
And so they're learning how tobe really, um, stable, reliable,
generous, you know, availablechaplains to all of these
(29:56):
situations, as things seem to beintensifying in the world in
certain ways with the crisesthat we're facing.
Um, and we are also reallyexploring the boundaries of
chaplaincy.
So what chaplaincy can mean inthe world.
So we have an eco chaplaincyinternship that's developing
that has to do with healing, therelationship between people in
(30:19):
the land and doing somecommunity grief rituals that,
um, internship position has, um,it's a creative, creative
opportunity to explore healingthis relationship between the
human and the non-human andthat, because that is the nature
of the crisis we're in, we seechaplains as having something
(30:41):
particular to offer into that,that space.
And then other opportunitieslike movement chaplaincy.
We had a chaplain who wasassigned to the ice detention
center and the, um, sanctuarymovement.
And so she would take care ofpeople that are in sanctuary in
Boulder and Denver, and thenthere's the people in the
detention.
And so there's a lot ofopportunities for chaplaincy to,
(31:05):
um, move out into the world morewhere the, these situations of
crisis and, and transition arehappening and out of the
institutions a bit.
And that's what we're exploringit at Naropa with our
contemplative approach to, tothis work.
So that we're, we're healthy,you know, and well, as we're, as
(31:25):
we're doing it as, and as we'rerecovering from some of the
things that we experience
Speaker 1 (31:29):
As you talk, that is really fascinating and really a
much more expansiveunderstanding of chaplaincy
David than what we were justkind of riffing off of before we
hopped on with you, Jamie.
But I I'm really fascinated in,and I think it's a fascinating
direction that you're taking asyou expand, um, the notion of
chaplaincy and even getting intoother ways of healing traumas.
(31:53):
You've talked a little bitabout, or have read a little bit
about, uh, you know, theemotional damage, the
psychological damage caused bysexual assault or war, um,
crime, violent crime, or theirtraumas.
And you have, uh, done somestudy and research around
whether M D M a assisted therapycan help heal some of those
(32:16):
traumas.
Could you tell us more aboutwhat you're learning in this
realm and what some of your ownresearch is leading you to
around, uh, some of these othertraumas and, and therapies that
can help with that?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Sure.
So my path with psychedelictherapies began with my own
healing journey.
So after having worked as achaplain for many years, I
experienced myself, Iexperienced burnout, and this
was maybe 10 years ago, I wasstruggling with, um, chaplaincy
(32:51):
can be really intense because ofthe situations that we are
facing.
And healthcare is a prettystressful environment, you know,
to work these days, like many ofthe environments that people are
working every day and workinglong hours.
And, and so I decided for myselfthat I would try to heal, I also
(33:13):
had, was diagnosed with a reallylow grade cancer, which
fortunately it was easy totreat, but it was really a wake
up call for me around how am Iliving my life and what do I
need to do to heal some of this,um, overwork.
And, and so I went down to Peruand I experienced an Iowasca
(33:34):
ceremony because I knew thatpeople were having experiences
of, of healing and, and beingable to do some deep, um, some
deeper work than is possible intraditional therapeutic context
sometimes.
And so I went down to Peru and Iexperienced a lot of healing
there.
(33:54):
And really one of the messages Ireceived that was so powerful
for me was that this, um,beliefs that I was carrying
about scarcity, that there's notenough, you know, there's not
enough for me that I have towork harder than everyone else,
and really just have everycredential and degree.
(34:15):
And that, that, you know, that,that would ensure my wellbeing
in the world.
That that message was really notserving me well.
And in the ceremony, Iexperienced this, um, kind of
just sickness in my body.
I could feel it in myself, in mybody, like the implication of
this belief, I can feel how, youknow, uncomfortable and just how
(34:39):
it was making me sick.
And so that I was able to, um,to heal from, you know, make a
commitment to try living in avery different way.
And that is, um, a lot of why Ichose Buddhist meditation as one
of the ways to, to really, um,recover from that always doing
in the world.
(34:59):
And, and then recognizing these,these, um, uh, ancestral
messages that come througharound scarcity that many of us
have that, you know, there's notenough, or maybe, you know, some
generations ago there was afamine or some kind of something
in this message is passed downthrough the family.
And so healing some of that aswell, and moving toward just a
(35:22):
more healthy way of being in theworld.
And so that's how I ended up,um, eventually being part of
this MTMA therapy trial inBoulder, which is an FDA study,
and we're using, um, you know,MDME assisted therapy to treat
people with PTSD who havereally, a lot of them have
(35:43):
really tried, tried many othermethods for healing from their
traumas and have really notfound relief.
And in this, in the FDA studiesin those phase two, we found
that 67% of people that receivedMTMA in the trial a year after
they received the therapy, theyno longer report it PTSD.
(36:06):
And so what that means is thathaving a more embodied, um, S
sometimes mystical, but notalways, but a really
transformative experience wherein each of these medicines,
MTMA, Iowasca, you know,siliciden, they each have their
own way of working with peopleand therapies that support that
(36:31):
work, that get more at the rootof the root causes of these
illnesses and, and mentalillnesses and Tron PTSD
responses, so that we can sortof go to the root of it and deal
with the source and begin thispath of healing.
And it's a complicatedconversation because they each
(36:53):
are, are so unique in their ownway.
But I have, um, interest in allof these paths, I suppose, and
unfortunate to be able to beable to be on a, on a, um, a
research study here in Boulder,that is a part of this, this
beautiful movement towardhelping people heal from, from
(37:13):
traumas.
You know, that sometimes aremultiple, you know, go over
multiple generations or patternsthat are really hard to shift
otherwise.
Well, I'm so glad
Speaker 1 (37:27):
That that your own personal journey of healing has
led you to this research andthis kind of cutting edge
research, uh, to my ears.
Um, I, I want to a couple ofquick things as we head to a
close one, is I, is it, how doyou pronounce that word for
those who aren't familiar withIowasca retreats or, or
practices, could you say alittle bit what that ceremony
(37:49):
entails or what it could, whatit, what it could look like for
people, uh, who are looking forsome deep healing in their own
lives?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Right.
Well, it's important to be very,um, you know, discerning about
places that you might, um, thatyou might go for an experience
like that.
Um, just like any really deepspiritual and, um, therapeutic
experience you'd want to bereally, really careful in
discerning.
(38:18):
So I would maybe direct you tochacruna is a wonderful place to
kind of plug into what might behappening in communities that
are understood as ethical andnot exploiting the indigenous
communities, where these, theseceremonies are taking place, or
maybe maps, you know, connectingwith the maps website, and you
(38:41):
can become a member of maps andreceive information about
clinicians that are reallyadvocating for these, these
therapies.
Um, but the ceremonies are, it'sreally hard to describe, you
know, there's depends on which,which, um, uh, ceremonial
context you, there are Iowascaceremonies in various cultural
(39:04):
contexts in the Peruvian contextthat I experienced with the
Shapebos, um, healers, there was, um, you know, a lot of music
and singing.
So they're healing songs thatare sung sung to people that are
in search of healing andtraditionally, um, the, they
call them, you know, Pasaheroes, the, um, the people that
(39:26):
are visiting the center forhealing traditionally would
wouldn't actually ingest anyIowasca, maybe just, uh, a bit
to connect with it.
But, um, these days there'sopportunity to either experience
the Iowasca yourself or just tosit and receive the healing and
these beautiful songs that comefrom plant medicine, traditions,
(39:49):
the Shapebos healers learn fromthe plants, how to heal people.
And then they partner with the,the psychedelic, um, I will the
medicines, and really try towork in the energetic field of
the person who's, who's sick andthis kind of message that I
received about, you know, how,uh, uh, uh, uh, mental belief is
(40:14):
impacting the, my body, youknow, as something I think that
people commonly experience and Iwould ask is also, uh, a
purgative.
And so, you know, that can bedifficult for people if you're
not comfortable like vomiting orthe vomiting is common and
shaking or crying, or there'sthe sense of like the medicine
(40:34):
going into your body and thenreleasing toxic influences and
things that are impeding, youknow, health and wellbeing.
But they're these a lot of thepractitioners use many other
medicines as well, many plantmedicines, and Iowasca is one of
the healing modalities, butthere are many ways that people
find healing for ancestral, youknow, traumatic patterns that
(40:58):
move through ancestral lineages,um, for beliefs that are not
supporting us, including how wemight be harming others and
illnesses in our bodies.
They're like the, they're likethe surgeons of the, um, of the
Amazon, you know, and they,they're, they're very
sophisticated in what they do.
So I hesitate to even try torepresent it in just a few
(41:21):
comments, you know?
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah.
I, I think, um, I remember thatthe, I own a healing prayer
going back to Celtic, uh,spirituality quickly.
We use a lot, uh, and use a lotin pastoral care practice with
people going to surgeries.
But, uh, and by the way, the, Iown a healing prayer.
I love this prayer.
I was in Iona when, uh, my firstnight in Scotland ever, I've
(41:45):
spent in the hospital and thenext and the next day, uh, I got
to Iona and it happened to be,uh, the serve, the, the healing
service of the week and the Ionacommunity at the Abbey.
And they pray this beautifulprayer with people from around
the world.
And you get in a circle with 10people and you kneel down and
they prayer that, you know,everybody's says this prayer,
(42:06):
and it's a spirit of the living,God present with us now, inter
you body mind, and spirit andheal.
You have all that harms you.
And it was just such a powerful,uh, just a symmetrical moment of
my life going through this kindof deep medical experience, then
showing up at Iona the next day,and this is all happening.
(42:28):
But one of the things I thinkabout certainly in Western
Christianity and I run into thisand bump into this a lot in my
own kind of personal journey iswe're so word-based right.
And how far can words reallytake us?
And so what you're describing isthis kind of deep holistic, uh,
even though you talked aboutsinging being part of the
(42:48):
healing, there is a kind of fullbodied experience of that, that
I think at least in my corner ofthe vineyard in Christianity is
really missing is how do we, howdo we find that full bodied
healing that people are sodeeply longing for when we're
such a word centric, uh, kind oftradition where, you know,
(43:13):
spirituality's lodged betweenthe ears.
I think that's where I bump intothe limits of my own kind of
faith and, and system.
And I know there are many waysto healing, but I think that's a
predominant, uh, kind of form inChristianity that I just wish we
could, uh, uh, in songwritinglingo, pop the quiff, David
(43:33):
David, about how to get beyondthat in some way.
And I think there's a lot ofdeep longing about that.
We just don't, we don't quiteknow how to do that.
And how far can we go with thatis what you were just saying.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Yeah, that's beautifully said and really
looking to the plant teachersand the other than human
teachers for those insights,because the plants, you know,
are so much older than humanityand they have these medicines
and songs to teach us andinsights about how to be in the
world.
(44:07):
They've, you know, evolved overall of these millions of years
and they are really seen aselders in these traditions.
And so to open ourselves, Ithink to the other than human is
part of that embodied experienceand to really connect with the
land through maybe offering, youknow, our love and our
(44:28):
commitment to the land that'ssupporting us and relearning how
to be in right relationship withthe trees and the plants, and to
really see them as our elders,instead of something that is a
resource for us to just be, youknow, using for our own benefit,
I think is some of the, the, theinsights from those cultures,
(44:48):
cultural contexts that we haveunfortunately lost, you know, in
our, in our modern, um, NorthAmerican, um, dominant culture.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
That's fascinating.
Jamie, thank you so much forbeing on with us today.
I wish I, I wish we could justkeep going and going here cause
there's so many lanes that wecould choose.
Um, and maybe, maybe we couldhave you on again and dive
deeper into one of those lanes,but, um, thank you for being
with us on hyphenated lifetoday.
And, um, is there, I don't knowif there's anything that you
(45:22):
would want to point any of ourlisteners towards any particular
work you're doing, um, thing,any organizations you're
involved in that you'd want topoint people towards to find
more information or how theymight get involved.
Some of these things that arereally fascinating to me, this
idea of eco chaplaincy, you know, um, helping, helping to heal
the relationship betweenhumanity and the earth.
(45:46):
Um, yeah.
Is there any, any place you'dlike to send our listeners?
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Well, I mentioned, um , chacruna C H a C R U N a.
They're a wonderful organizationfor exploring, um, plant
medicines and psychedelictherapies from a really ethical
and, um, plant-based, uh,approach to that conversation.
And then the center forcontemplative chaplaincy, we
(46:12):
have a lot of, um, information,you know, available as our
websites, developing it in aRopa.
So I might direct you to thoseplaces for now.
And, um, just appreciate beinghere with you, both and hearing
about your co CelticChristianity endeavors, and, um,
you're right down the street.
(46:33):
So it's about time that we had achance to talk with each other.
And I appreciate the opportunity
Speaker 3 (46:37):
You so much for joining us.
It's my pleasure.
Hyphenated life it's productionof pine street church in
Boulder, Colorado hosted byDavid[inaudible] and Andrew
Doherty produced by Phil Normanexecutive producer.
Alexey Molden special, thanks totoday's guest, the Leo Hill
(47:00):
trust of Boulder, Colorado, andpine street church.
If today's episode has inspired,you reach out to us at
hyphenated life on our Facebook,Instagram, and Twitter pages.
You can also findus@hyphenatedlife.org.
If you are looking for aspiritual community, we'd love
to join you on that journey.
Go to pine street, church.net,to find out more
Speaker 4 (47:30):
Podcast where we talk about what should I say?
And other what would be a better
Speaker 5 (47:40):
That's right.
That's what I was thinking.
We could just type it out.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.