May 6, 2021 • 39 mins
Self described recovering lawyer and politico turned food writer, Adrian Miller joins Hyphenated Life for a truly intriguing episode about race, food and faith, soul food (Adrian is the anointed "Soul Food Scholar), barbecue, and his time with former president Bill Clinton.
You don't want to miss this conversation, where Adrian really does drop knowledge like hot biscuits!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:18):
Welcome to hyphenated life.
I'm Adrian Miller, the soul foodscholar.
Who's dropping knowledge likehot biscuit.
Perfect.
We got a thumbs up.
Excellent.
Cool.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you.
Well we're where have you beenall of our lives, Adrian.
Um, so our executive producer,uh, kind of discovered you found
you and thought it would be awonderful to have you on, so, so
thank you.
I'm going to now kind of quicklyintroduce you and we'll, we'll
get into it.
So, uh, David, today we arethrilled and, uh, capital T
(00:51):
thrilled to have Adrian Milleron this week show.
Adrian is a scholar ofAfrican-American food.
He's the author of severalbooks, including soul food,
which won a 2014 James Beardfoundation award.
And he's the author of thepresident's kitchen cabinet for
which he was nominated for the2018 NAACP image award for
(01:13):
outstanding literary work.
Non-fiction he is aself-proclaimed recovering
lawyer.
That's curious and served as awhite house advisor to president
bill Clinton and Adrian Miller.
Welcome to hyphenated life.
Thank you for joining us fortoday's conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, it's a blessing to be with you.
Thank you for asking, invitingme.
Well, I'm gonna
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Start here because you are, you said you say a
recovering attorney, so that'sinteresting.
Uh, you are an award-winningfood writer, former special
assistant to president Clinton,and now you serve currently as
the executive director of theColorado council of churches.
Uh, and so David and I wouldlove to know more like how did
(01:55):
that happen?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, it's been an interesting journey.
So, uh, you know, for most, mostof my life, I thought I was
going to be an attorney forseveral years and then I would
shift and go into politics.
So I thought I would be theSenator from Colorado at some
point in my life.
Uh, so, uh, I got the, so it wasinteresting.
I just hated practicing law.
That's why I became a returningrecovering attorney.
(02:19):
Um, it just got to the pointwhere I was singing spirituals
in my office.
Do you know how dispiriting itis to be in your office as the
sun is rising and you're singingDayo?
So, um, I knew that I knewwanted to do something else.
So I was gonna actually open upa soul food restaurant, got a
chance to work in the Clintonwhite house, uh, for something
called the initiative for oneAmerica.
(02:39):
And, um, that was just the, thecrazy idea behind that is that
if we just talked to one anotherand listened, we probably
realized that we have a lot morein common than what supposedly
divides us.
And so the shift of food writinghappened, uh, the short answer
is unemployment.
So after my stint with theClinton white house was over, I
was trying to get back toColorado to my political career,
(03:00):
but the job market was reallyslow.
And I was watching a lot ofdaytime television.
I'm not even going to tell youwhat shows come on, give us,
give us something.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
It will just start it'll hurt my rep too much.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Um, and the, the depth of my okay.
Blind date, if you ever rememberthat show blind date.
Yes.
I watched hours of that and loveconnection.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
[inaudible] connection.
Yeah.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Um, and then, uh, in the depth of my depravity, I
said, I should read something.
So I went to the local bookstoreand I'm browsing the, in the
food section cause I'd alwayslove to cook.
And I found this book by JohnEdgerton called Southern folk
food at home, on the road inhistory.
And in that book, he said, hewrote that the tribute to black
achievement in American cookeryhad yet to be written.
And that one sentence is whatlaunched me on the journey.
(03:46):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
What grabbed your attention about that?
That, that, that didn't exist.
And so what connected in yourown soul that, that just,
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I have to do this, uh, you know, I can't explain
it.
It was just like, Oh, I could dothat.
And then really seriously, I'dnever even thought about writing
a book, especially when I'm foodor anything like that, but
something spoke to me and Ithink, um, I've always been
interested in history.
I was interested in cooking.
And so one thing that alwaysgrabs at me is just these untold
stories.
(04:16):
Um, and just making sure thatAfrican-Americans are recognized
for their contributions tovarious aspects of our country.
And so that was just a treatintriguing.
And, you know, the book was 14years old when I picked it up.
So I just thought somebody haddone that.
So I actually emailed Mr.
Edgerton and asked him thatquestion.
And he said, you know, nobody'sdone it.
There's always room for anothervoice.
(04:36):
Why not yours?
So with no, uh, noqualifications at all, except
for eating a lot of soul foodand cooking at some that I went
at it, I went at it very good.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yeah.
And I, I, my background is inmusic.
I have degrees in music andstudied classical singing and
all the way through graduateschool, where you get into start
, you get to take electives andget to the not mainstream stuff.
So you can get into some ethnomusicology and you start to see
some patterns in, in, in highart and music and in art, visual
(05:11):
art in the culinary arts wherewe have this white
westernization focus, uh, on thehistory of it and the other
elements are considered fringe.
Um, and, and you start to kindof not like that.
And, and, uh, for example, Ithink of most banjo players in
our country today are, are whiteguys and bluegrass bands, you
(05:33):
know, but the origin of thatinstrument and where it came
from was from Africa.
And I grew up in the South and,uh, I'm sure we'll get more into
this later.
I am in love with Southern soulfood, new Orleans in particular,
and, and lately the past five to10 years, uh, smoked meats,
barbecue, and almost more thaneating it, which is a
(05:56):
transcendental.
I love the, the energy and storybehind its origin.
And it seems like that's whatyou're writing books about.
You know, you go through in yourbook about soul food, you not
only, you know, name what theyare and how to make them and a
few different options, but wherethey came from.
And I was wondering if you couldtalk a little bit about that in
(06:18):
the origins of soul food inAmerica.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah.
So in the, in the quest fortelling these untold stories,
you know, part of it is, well,what is the history?
Because there's one version ofhistory that's told, but you
know, you don't know if that'sthe real story.
And so when it comes to soulfood, that there's really two
main narratives.
One is that it's slave food.
And the implications of that islike, Oh, it's not worthy of
(06:43):
being celebrated.
Or what I heard from a lot ofAfrican-Americans is like, Hey,
you know, can we get past that?
Why are we still recognizingthat?
Uh, and the other thing is thatthis food is inherently
unhealthy.
It needs a warning label.
Why are you eating that stuff?
And so I just wanted to sort outfact from fiction.
And, um, you know, what I foundout is that this, this masters
(07:04):
leftovers garbage throw awaything is just not, that's part
of the story, but it's soul foodis so much more complex and soul
food and Southern food becauseit's really a bringing together
a West Africa, a Western Europeand the Americas and those
ingredients and culinarytraditions are all coming
together in the American South.
Um, and so the narrative justreally starts to melt once, once
(07:26):
it's held up to historicalscrutiny.
And what I found is that really,when it comes to the South, it's
more about class and place thanrace, because a lot of poor
whites were eating the samestuff as enslaved.
African-Americans just adifferent context.
Um, and so that was enlighteningto me.
And then this whole idea thatit's, you know, needs a warning
(07:47):
label.
Uh, soul food is really thecelebration food of the South.
That's taken out of the Southand transplanted across the
country in a different context.
And celebration.
Food is not meant to be eaten onthe regular.
It's supposed to be everywhere,right?
This will shock a lot of people,but you know, who think they
have a constitutional right tofried chicken, but fried chicken
(08:08):
was something that was servedevery once in a while.
I mean, you would have it in thespring, uh, maybe just for
Sunday dinner.
And so the fact that we can havefried chicken multiple times a
day now, um, you know, it'sjust, it's, we're eating
celebration food out of the carout of context, you know,
Speaker 3 (08:22):
For the record, we're here at pine street, church
three blocks from the post friedchicken and beer restaurant,
which I'm guessing you've beento.
And you know, that they've donea pretty good job of doing their
research on how to make thatstuff really good.
And, and we probably, uh, havetaken it careful a little bit
beyond the celebratoryexperience.
And, uh, but you, you know, it,it comes and goes.
(08:45):
And, uh, yeah, I, I, I grew upin Pensacola, Florida, and I
remember eating fried chickenevery Sunday after church at one
of two places.
One was at Pensacola club, theother was the pickin's house.
Um, and as a child to have thefondest memories I can think of
it was ritualistic, right.
Um, it's one of the elements offood, uh, that I find spiritual.
(09:09):
It, it is ritual in theconsumption of it in the
creation of it.
Um, and I don't know if he, ifyou have any relation to food
like that.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Oh, absolutely.
So, uh, I've, I've always beenas a person of faith.
I've always been kind ofintrigued with kind of the
intersection of food andspirituality.
Um, and it's an it's obviousintersection, but, you know, in
today's world, we've, we'vedivorced that with the way that
we connect with nature, our foodsystem, um, fewer people have, I
don't have an active spirituallife.
(09:42):
Um, it always amazes me howpeople are just curious that I'm
bending over and praying over myfood before I eat it when I'm in
a public space.
So, you know, when it comes tofried chicken, I did a whole
chapter.
What I called the integration ofchurch and plate, you know, and,
and black tradition, uh, friedchickens called the gospel bird,
or some people call it Sundayclock.
(10:03):
And so I go back into that.
And what you find is that, um,there was a connection with
chickens and spirituality, evenin West Africa, and that comes
across the Atlantic.
And so in many ways, in which afried chicken, it becomes a very
important part of black culture.
And it's tied to church life andspirituality.
And even in a non-Christiancontext, you see chicken show up
(10:25):
in, uh, a spiritual life, um,you know, Santa voodoo and other
things like that, but it justshows you, there's a, there's a
continuum of experience,spiritual experience with fried
chicken that goes backcenturies.
And so it was fascinating tokind of track that history.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, that's amazing.
The fried chicken one is a, is afascinating subject matter too.
There's a documentary series onNetflix by David Yang, uh, chef,
uh, sort of world famous chefit's called ugly delicious, and
each episode focuses on a foodtype.
Um, and that's another metaphorthat food can give us about
(11:01):
celebrating diversity.
No, all the chicken is chicken,but all fry.
They're all kinds of friedchicken, you know, from, from
Korea to India, to America, to,you know, I th I think you
talked about that there's sometheories out there that, uh,
American Southern American stylefried chicken is, uh, actually
(11:22):
Scottish inherited possibly.
Um, it's not, uh, there's,there's some ambiguity there to
that story, but in this series,uh, ugly, delicious David Yang,
uh, in his episode about friedchicken goes around.
He does a great job of talkingabout some of the more delicate
nuances of it, uh, historicallywhat it's represented.
And you, you know, you've sortof hinted at some of that, but I
(11:43):
love this idea that the, uh,soul food Southern food is
isn't, isn't, uh, some kind oflesser tier.
Um, and there's a chef that heinterviews at Waldo Jordan, um,
who has recently opened arestaurant after working at
French laundry in Napa and perse in New York city to, you
know, to have Thomas Keller'sworld renowned, you know,
(12:06):
restaurant of the year typethings.
It's absolute pinnacle of theculinary arts.
And here's a guy, uh, you know,an African-American guy with
Georgia and Florida roots, who,who was making high French
cuisine in, in, when it camedown to, you know, what he
wanted to do in a vacuum.
He, he created this restaurantcalled June baby, and he has a
(12:27):
quote that I love, and he says,I could cook ox tails and press
the meat into a terrain andcover it with edible flowers.
Instead, I want people toexperience my mother's oxtails,
tearing the meat off the bone,that moment of restoring your
soul.
And there is just something sobeautiful about that.
(12:48):
And, uh, not that high culinaryart food doesn't have soul to
it, but certainly there's thisopportunity there for that
experience, that more visceralexperience, you're not gonna
break the beautiful work of art,you know, it's, it's, hands-on,
it's, it's deep, it takes a longtime to make.
(13:08):
Um, and so, I don't know.
Do you have, what are yourthoughts on, on that element of
soul food of Southern food?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah.
So first of all, let me justsay, I've been to chef Jordan's
restaurant, June baby, and hehas another place called Solari,
and man, it is next level foodthat's bucket list for me.
Yeah.
And, uh, and, and speaking offried chicken, so he only serves
fried chicken on Sundays limitededition.
There's a line.
And he's told me he has seenpeople weep fried chicken in a
(13:36):
good way.
Yeah.
So, uh, you know, yeah.
You know, often when we talkabout food, there's kind of this
high and low aspect of it.
And I think for too long, a timesoul food has been solely in the
low category, which kind of, um,you know, it's like considered
good working class food.
Right.
But the, the problem with thatis I think it under plays that
(13:59):
the skill level that's broughtinto making that food.
And so for a fine dining chef,like Eduardo Jordan, to
celebrate that and incorporatethat in what he does.
Um, and now I think that hasactually my book and other food
writers have now invited are-examination of these kinds of
working class vernacularcuisines, as some have called it
(14:21):
to say, no, there's artistryhere.
And, um, we shouldn't gloss overthat.
Um, they may not have beenprofessionally chain trained in
a culinary school, but there'sartistry here.
And here's the actual untoldstory that are least Lee Lee's
told story about.
Um, enslaved cooks.
A lot of them did apprenticeunder French chefs.
Um, and that's a story that'sundertold, uh, and so, uh, I,
(14:44):
I'm just not skilled and Frenchcuisine, but I would love for
somebody who knows Frenchcuisine inside and out to go
through these old cookbooks andsay, Oh yeah, that's a French
technique there.
It's not identified, but that'sa French technique.
And the only example I can thinkof, and David you'll probably
use, I'm sure you've had thisbefore is spoon bread.
If you, if you sit back and lookat spoon bread, another way,
(15:05):
it's a cornbread souffle.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah.
Which is fairly that you learnedthat in the French cooking
schools.
Okay.
Wow.
That's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
But nobody talks about spoon bread that way.
Right.
It's just a type of cornbreadfor most people.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Absolutely.
So, Adrian, you mentioned thatyou you're a person of faith and
of course you're the executivedirector of the Kolo, uh,
Colorado council of churches.
Um, how did you come to theColorado council of churches and
David and I have been talkingabout how we at pine street
church, we, we ought to be allin with that, right.
As a, as a partner here in theDenver Boulder area.
(15:45):
But how did you, uh, I wouldjust say a couple of things, one
, uh, how did your experiencebeing a foodie?
Uh, and then now you're theexecutive director of a
wonderful, progressive, uh, uh,organization, uh, in Boulder.
I mean, excuse me in Denver.
Uh, how did, how did that cometo be for you?
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, so it was really because of my work, um,
in politics.
So when I came back to Colorado,after the Clinton white house, I
got a job at something calledthe bell policy center, like
ring the bell.
And that was a progressive thinktank, which was new for
Colorado.
Cause we had things tanks, butthey tended to be very
conservative.
And so, um, the idea behind thethink tank was okay, how can we
(16:27):
take people who are consistentlyat society's margins and get
them to a point ofself-sufficiency through policy
and biblically.
It's like, you know, how do wetake care of the least of these?
Uh, so I was doing that workwith the bell policy center and
I was the outreach director.
So my, my task was to connectwith different constituencies.
(16:48):
So I can't re I think it was, uh, work on the taxpayer bill of
rights.
That was one of our majorprojects for a couple of years.
I just thought, Hey, we shouldconnect with the faith
community.
And so I found the council ofchurches.
And so my predecessor, theReverend Dr.
Jim Ryan was executive.
At that time, I got to know himbetter.
We, we hit it off.
And so, um, he, the councilchurch just had something, they
(17:08):
called a justice commission,which was focused on just kind
of work, like paying attentionto policy work and seeing where
faith communities can intersect.
So I was on that and I was stillon that when I came to work for
a governor, bill Ritter Jr.
But you know, being, working fora governor, it was just too hard
to make the meetings.
So, um, he asked me to head up atask force and then we went out
(17:30):
to lunch and I thought we werejust going to talk about the
task force.
And he said, yeah, you know, I'mactually going to re tire.
You should think about applyingfor my job.
Well, I was like, you know, Ihad my Moses moment.
I was like, what now not mepastor.
And he's like, you don't have tobe a pastor.
You just have to have a heartfor social justice.
So I just applied for the jobjust because he thought so much
of me, I should, I should atleast apply.
(17:52):
And I was convinced I wasn'tgoing to get it.
Cause I remember as I was beinginterviewed, someone asked me,
you know, what are thetheological differences between
the Lutheran church and theEpiscopal church?
How would you explain that?
And I just looked at the person.
I said, well, I don't know muchbecause I thought I wasn't the
dead duck, but I guess thathonesty was refreshing.
And so I've been in thatposition for eight years.
(18:14):
And for those who don't knowwhat the council of churches is,
uh, it's two-fold mission.
And we, we say walking togetherand faith working together for
justice.
So the first part is ecumenical.
So like, how can we break downour silos?
Cause we, we, Christians, we'vedefinitely kind of built these
silos, right?
How can we break those down andget to know each other?
Uh, and then the second thing isthen building on those
(18:35):
relationships to do socialjustice work.
Um, so we represent 13 Christiandenominations, mainly, um,
mainline, Protestant,denominations, and some others.
We have a few conservativedenominations.
And for those who have neverheard of us, we're the ones who
host the Easter sunrise serviceat red rocks every year.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Oh, there it is.
Wow.
That's a, a well attended.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Um, so next year will be our 75th year.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Wow.
Well, we'll talk to our heartfor missions, team David here at
the church, but, uh, that that'sjust right up, you know, right
up our alley in terms of who weare theologically.
So, so Adrian, um, in terms ofyour passion for social justice
and connecting that with yourkind of faith journey, where did
you grow up and, and how did, uh, faith become, uh, such a
(19:24):
central part of your own life?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
All right.
So I'm about to immediately losestreet cred on the subject of
Southern food and soul food.
But I grew up here in Denver,uh, when moved to Aurora when I
was a little kid.
So this is how it went peopleback.
Um, my parents are from theSouth, my mom's from
Chattanooga, Tennessee, my dad'sfrom Helena, Arkansas.
Wow.
Uh, so, you know, um, growing upin Denver and then moving to the
(19:46):
suburbs, I mean majority whitesuburbs, um, I'm grateful to my
parents for a lot of things, buttwo things, um, particularly
here that are applicable hereare keeping me connected to a
black church.
So we, we, uh, we continued togo to the church that I'm still
a member of today, uh, Campbellchapel, African Methodist,
Episcopal church.
(20:07):
So even though it was in thesuburbs, we made the Trek, you
know, multiple times a week forpractices and then church as
well and activities.
Uh, and then also my mom cookssoul food.
Uh, and you know, I took thatfor granted cause I was like,
well, why wouldn't somebody dothat?
But I, um, going on to collegeand encountering
African-Americans from differentparts of the country who had a
(20:27):
very similar story to mine, buttheir parents decided to shed
kind of associations with blacklife maybe to fit in with the
new community.
I don't know.
There's a lot of reasons whypeople do those things, but, uh,
I'm grateful.
My parents did not do that andmade it important for me to be
immersed in black culture, evenif it was just on the weekends.
Nice.
Um, so I was
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Thinking, uh, kind of moving along here, uh, in the,
for the sake of time, uh, youare a food historian and your
second book, um, is called thepresident's kitchen cabinet, uh,
that I think came out in 2017and you explore there the
history of African Americanchefs and the white house.
(21:09):
And, um, I'm sort of a politicalnerd to a degree, lived in DC
for a couple of years.
And did you say separation ofchurch and plate?
I did separation of church andstate for a couple of years
there.
Uh, but in your research fromthat book, the president's
kitchen cabinet, uh, what didyou learn and what keeps
bubbling up maybe for you thatour listeners might be curious
(21:30):
about with that?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So one thing your listeners may not know is that
every president of the UnitedStates has had an
African-American cooking forthem in some capacity, whether
it was in the white housebasement kitchen, or when they
went on air force one or whenthey went on the presidential
train or the presidential yacht,or when someplace to stay,
Speaker 2 (21:48):
There was a presidential yacht, by the way
that, that was, that was prettycool to find out.
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, yeah.
W w the, the yacht disappearedduring the Carter administration
cause you know, he was a man ofthe people and he just thought
it was too much of a statussymbol.
And a lot of members of Congresswere really upset about his
decision to get rid of theyacht.
In fact, one of the Congressmanwho criticized him most
strenuously was representativeDick Cheney.
(22:14):
He just felt the presidentdidn't understand how important
that is.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah.
We've all experienced it.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
And then, you know, one was just, I, first of all, I
just wish I had gotten the ideafor this book while I was in the
white house.
Cause I could have gotten somuch scoop because I had top
secret clearance at that time.
Oh man.
But yeah, it came to meafterwards.
Um, but the, the, the, the, justthe presence of
African-Americans in white housefood history, because, um, if
you were to just step back andlook at the grand scope of white
(22:47):
house workers in the kitchen,the typical white house worker
was a black woman.
And it's only really recentlythat it's not, that has not been
the case.
And that's really started in1960 when, uh, first lady
Jacqueline Kennedy wanted toelevate white house food.
And so made a market turntowards hiring, uh, classically
trained European chefs.
(23:07):
We don't, that's not the higherrate now, but that, that fine
dining aspect kind of underminedthe hires of African-Americans
because they just didn't haveaccess to those culinary schools
could cook fine, but they justweren't trained in that way.
Um, and what I found out the,another takeaway is that in many
cases, they played an importantrole in nourishing, um, our
(23:28):
first families and nurturingthem in many ways, but also, you
know, in, in certain spots theywere civil rights activists.
Um, we have examples now, um,there's a, there's a code of
silence around the white houseand the servants.
So we don't know all the thingsthat happen, but we do know
there were examples in historywhere presidents would go and
talk to the staff and just checkin with them and to see how
(23:48):
black America was acceptingtheir policies.
And interesting thing happened alot, but it happens sometimes.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Uh, Adrian, I'm curious too, I think from, uh,
the president's kitchen cabinetbook where, uh, and I might be
not, I might not remember thisexactly.
Right.
But you said since from GeorgeWashington to president Obama,
that there were black chefs inthe white house, uh, uh, black
cooks in the white house.
(24:14):
Could you say a little bit moreabout that and, and did that end
with president Obama, by theway, we were kind of wondering
about that.
Um, uh, earlier, before wehopped on with you,
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Right?
So the first thing is, um, a lotfrom the beginning, the white
house kitchen has beenmulti-class in this sense,
you've had enslaved cooks or aslave to African-Americans
working next, alongside freeAfrican-Americans and indentured
whites working along freewhites.
So it's been very multi-classand multi-racial from its
beginning, but, um, we've had alot of, we had a lot of slave
(24:47):
holding presidents.
And so, um, people may not knowthis, but prior to Truman
presidents had to pay for thecooks and a lot of staff out of
their own pocket.
And so if you are a slaveholder, it just made a whole lot
more sense to bring yourenslaved cook, who you didn't
have to pay to the white houseto cook for you, then hiring
somebody on the open labormarket.
So a lot that's what happened.
(25:08):
So a lot of white house cookswere enslaved cooks who happened
to be cooking for that person inprivate life.
And that's the path to the whitehouse really, until you get to
the 1960s, most people areaccidental.
They were the previous cook orservant of a president, and that
person brings them to the whitehouse.
And then, um, a lot of it waswho you knew.
So people already in thelighthouse, whenever there was
(25:30):
an opening, they would tap arelative or somebody they knew
to fill those spots.
Um, and it's only recent historythat you have more variety.
So, um, so you have a lot ofenslaved cooked.
And then for most of ourcountry's history, cooking was
not considered a glamorousthing.
Um, not like it is now.
So it was considered menial workand the racial norms of our
(25:50):
country, um, for a lot of ourhistory has been, if there's
menial work, make black peopledo it and don't pay them a lot
of money.
So if they weren't enslavedgoats, a lot of the free people
cooking in the lighthouse whereAfrican-Americans, so, you know,
by the time you get to saysomeone like Rutherford, B
Hayes, the entire staff is blackand he was president 1870s.
Um, and that, so that's, that'sreally kind of the rhythms of
(26:13):
presidential history.
Um, and so, uh, but then afterslavery ends and he knows still
African-Americans were thoughtof as the cooks.
And so again, there's just thiscultural momentum that you have
black people doing the cooking.
And if you look at food history,step back, I mean, you know, as
much as Latino cooks dominatekitchens today in most
commercial kitchens, you know,if you open the door and look at
(26:35):
the kitchen, it's mostly Latinoscooking, regardless of who's the
owner, right?
The figurehead that's, whatAfrican-Americans were, that was
the status of African-Americansa hundred years ago.
Most of these restaurants werestaffed by black cooks.
So it's not surprising that thewhite house had the same
dynamic.
So, um, but since the 1960s withthe increase in hires of white
chefs and others, uh,African-American presence
(26:55):
doesn't disappear entirely.
It certainly decreases, but itdoesn't disappear.
Um, and so, um, usually thereare two or three African
Americans on a presidentialstaff.
So there were in Trump'sadministration as, and I, I'm
not sure sir, about the Bidenadministration, cause I just
don't know who's cooking there,but I would assume that there
are African-Americans who werecooking for Trump who stayed
there because typically thosecooks don't rotate out.
(27:17):
It's usually the only theexecutive chef that has to worry
about getting fired with thechange of administration.
And the current executive chefis a Philippina named Christina
Comaford and she's been cookingsince the second term of George
W.
Bush.
So this is a quite lengthy runfor an
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Executive chef.
Wow.
Well, in Adrian, you're inDenver, Colorado.
Now we know that you grew up inDenver and, um, I've, I've read
somewhere where you say that thebeginning, even the beginning of
, um, Colorado statehood, blackchefs have been producing top
shelf cuisine, and yet they havebeen underrepresented in
Denver's food story at what canyou tell us about that?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
So part of that I think is just a media creation
is just the people.
And this has been a long runningproblem and American media, the
people who decide what storiesget told and who to spotlight
have tended to be white.
And, um, they just really didn'tvalue African Americans.
So to the extent that these, uh,African-American cooks are noted
(28:18):
in, um, our print media, um, ithas often been a very terse, you
know, like description often toridicule, but, um, you know, you
don't, you don't have a lot oflengthy portraits of these cooks
, um, compared to others.
Now, again, we're in a foodiemoment.
So it wasn't really, uh, youknow, fashionable at the time to
(28:40):
spend a lot of time talkingabout a cook the way we do now,
but still you do have portraitsof cooks here and there and you
just don't see a lot ofAfrican-Americans being
celebrated.
And part of that was status.
Uh, and you know, even in, whensomebody was celebrated to get
their full name was a rarity,because that person was not
considered a full human being.
So they would just be called,you know, uncle, whatever, aunt,
(29:01):
whatever, and you wouldn't getthe full name.
Um, and so, uh, that's just beenpart of just, um, media history
here, but it's better now.
I mean, to some extent you'll,you'll have African-Americans
noted, but the problem now isthat it's very difficult for an
entrepreneur to start arestaurant because you have to
(29:21):
have access to capital.
You've got to have a good teambehind you.
You got to have somebody to makesure you're meeting all the
ordinances and requirements andall that kind of stuff.
So a lot goes into running arestaurant.
And, um, it's, it's just harderto do that nowadays,
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Especially at that higher end level that would get
that sort of notice.
Yeah.
Right.
Well, I wanted to connect thisin the short time we have left
because we, uh, of course theworld got word, uh, was that
yesterday or two days ago nowabout the, uh, Derek Shovan
trial, the former Minneapolispolice officer who knelt on
(29:58):
George Floyd's neck and wasconvicted in all three counts
this week, uh, all three countsagainst him.
And what, uh, most folks believeis the most con consequential
trial, certainly in the blacklives era, uh, black lives
matter era.
I I'd be curious Adrian, aboutyour thoughts about that.
And you wrote an article in foodand wine magazine last year
(30:21):
about the Louisville chef, uh,David Mcity, who was killed by
law enforcement in June of 2020.
And, uh, I believe ran his, itYaz barbecue shack in
Louisville, Kentucky.
And I loved in that article inthe food and wine magazine
article, you, um, in theaftermath of that, you
celebrated his life in barbecue,as you, as you write the
(30:43):
article.
And, um, I think he's beenremembered for great barbecue
and being just a good person.
Uh, but, but what, what mightyou connect with the breaking
news of this week and the DerekShovan trial, and also thinking
about the, the, the David Mcity,uh, story that you seem to be
close to and wrote about?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yeah, so, you know, um, this, the, the verdict was
memorable in the sense that, uh,you have a sense, like finally,
some accountability for what'swhat's happened.
And you know, the other thingthat's been shocking is since
George Floyd get a lot of peoplestill getting killed and, um, it
just doesn't ever seem to beaccountability.
(31:24):
And one thing that was reallystruck me, because I think of it
as justice and accountability,but, you know, there've been
some people saying this is notjustice because George Floyd is
not still alive.
Um, and it only, you can onlyhave justice if it's
restorative.
I'm not sure I agree with thatfully because I think there are
different forms of justice.
And that, to me, I've alwaysgrown up with the idea that
justice, in this sense is you dosomething horribly wrong.
(31:47):
If you go to a trial and you getconvicted, then you serve time
for that.
So we'll have to see whathappens with sentencing.
That's another part of thestory, but, um, it, it just
speaks to, um, a certain levelof fatigue that these things
keep happening.
Um, and you know, what I'm goingto say is a little charged
because I have not done asystemic study, you know, a
(32:08):
scientific study or anythinglike that, but it just seems
like when African-Americans areinvolved, there's always the use
of lethal, lethal force thatleaves the forest is more used
more often than not.
And there's so many stories ofpeople who have actually killed
other people, uh, or white, butthey get taken into custody.
And so, um, you know, I thinktensions are high, um, senses
(32:30):
are heightened.
And, um, I think though we haveto use this as a teaching
moment, right?
And I'm hoping that there'll bepulpits across the country where
people will talk about this.
And I know it's hard in somecongregations to talk about
black lives matters and racialjustice.
I know people have told me that.
Um, but I know pastors who havetalked about racial justice and
(32:51):
people get up and leave midsermon.
I know that there are people wholeave churches when, uh, when I
went to pastor talks aboutracial justice.
But, uh, you know, at some pointwe have to talk about this stuff
and it gets back to my work inthe lighthouse, right?
It's we have to sit down, talkto one another and listened.
And that means people are infavor of black lives matter and
(33:11):
racial justice sitting down andlistening to somebody who's not
feeling that and trying tounderstand, well, where are they
coming from?
Uh, and we have fewer and fewerspaces in our society where we
can come together in terms ofdifferent walks of life.
And to me, one of the few spacesleft is the church and the
table.
So I'm spending a lot of timingtime thinking about, well, how
can I join those?
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah, that's all well said in, uh, in you're uniquely
qualified to have a reallypowerful perspective there.
Appreciate that.
Um, so we're rounding up hereand as we round up, I wanna, I
wanna talk about your soon to bereleased.
I'm looking on Amazon right nowand you can, pre-order black
(33:53):
smoke.
African-Americans in the UnitedStates of barbecue.
Uh, I will be pre-ordering thisbook.
I am very excited about this.
It looks, uh, as we were talkingabout before, beyond just the
wonderful transcendentexperience of eating some of the
most delicious food on theplanet, it looks inspiring.
(34:13):
It looks, uh, you know,educational, motivational.
Can you tell us a little bitabout this book, black smoke?
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Yeah.
Thank you for a moment to, topub it.
So, uh, the book, I did notintend to write a book, um, you
know, several years ago, butthen I had a traumatic
experience.
I was watching the food networkand there was a commercial for
Paula Dean's Southern barbecuehour long, special, and I would
want it to learn more aboutbarbecue because so many as soul
(34:41):
food joints have a barbecueoption on the menu.
And so many black owned barbecuejoints have a soul food sides.
So I thought, well, let me justwatch this show.
I'm B I'm sure I'm going tolearn some stuff.
So when the, after the hourshow, the credits are rolling,
my mouth is a gay because noAfrican-Americans were
interviewed on air.
And I first, the thing I thoughtwas, how does this even happen?
And then the second thing Ithought is, well, maybe I got it
(35:04):
twisted.
Maybe it was Paula DeanScandinavian, barbecue.
And I just, uh, and so I startedlooking at other media and I
just saw African-Americans arenot being mentioned in this
hugely popular cuisine.
So black smoke is a partcelebration.
It's a celebration ofAfrican-American barbecue
culture.
And then it's also, um, andincluding, I have a whole
(35:25):
chapter on church, barbecue.
I call it burnt offerings.
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
And I, I show how, um, barbecuehas been distracting to my
spiritual life.
So I don't know about you all,but every time I hear the words
burn offerings, my mouth, mymind starts to wander, um, the
whole burning Bush story.
Do you ever wonder if it smelledlike Hickory or Oh, maybe MIS,
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Right, right.
Even, even a pecan or yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah.
The Valley of dry bones.
Did you think of them as spareribs and then it's restoration
it's it's moving back.
It was moving African-Americansback to what I call the center
of the fire or in this case, theAfrican-American barbecue story,
because African-Americans havebeen pushed to the sidelines and
that's just not right.
Because African-Americans forcenturies were not only
(36:14):
barbecues, principal cooks, butalso, um, it's most effective
ambassadors.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Right?
Absolutely.
Um, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Oh, and I just say one more thing.
You can actually pre-order itfrom my website, soul food,
scholar.com and you'll get anautographed copy and I'm happy
to sign that any way you want,if you want me to say, I
couldn't have written this bookwithout you.
I'm happy to.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Well, I it's all of us.
Right.
We're all in all of us.
Barbecue enthusiasts.
Um, yeah.
And on your website also, youhave, for those listeners in
Colorado, you have a great listof, uh, barbecue restaurants
there.
Um, so get out there, do a tour,do, do one every other Sunday
and, and get out there, see whatthere is to be had because what
(36:59):
a world that is, um, for, Ithink I read somewhere your,
your, uh, official barbecue, um,uh, competition judge, which was
a small dream of mine, for sure.
But, um, you know, the, thebeauty of this as an art form, I
really we'll call it an art formin a communal experience is just
(37:19):
off the charts, in my opinion,and to capture it, uh, captured
that.
And also in this sort of, uh, Ilike the restorative component
of this, like giving, giving therecognition where it's been do
from the beginning to these,these black barbecue, uh,
artists let's call them that.
And, uh, I can't wait to get myhands on that.
(37:41):
And, and, uh, there also appearto be a bunch of recipes in
there.
So I'll be trying those out.
Um, and, you know, getting myrubs in my, the woods is smoking
woods and all that stuff.
And it's going to be a funsummer for sure.
Absolutely
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Great Hadrian Miller soul food scholar.
Thanks for being on hyphenatedlife.
Adrian Miller we're grateful.
Thank you.
(38:17):
[inaudible] hyphenated life.
Its production of pine streetchurch in Boulder, Colorado
hosted by David Long Jew andAndrew Doerr produced by Phil
Norman, executive producer,Alexi molding, special things to
today's guest, the Leo Hilltrust of Boulder, Colorado, and
pine street church.
If today's episode has inspired,you reach out to us at
(38:39):
hyphenated life on our Facebook,Instagram, and Twitter pages.
You can also findus@hyphenatedlife.org.
If you were looking for aspiritual community, we'd love
to join you on that journey.
Go to pine street, church.net tofind out more[inaudible].
Welcome to hyphenated life.
I'm Adrian Miller, the soul foodscholar.
Who's dropping knowledge likehot biscuit.
Perfect.
We got a thumbs up.
Excellent.
Cool.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you.
Well we're where have you beenall of our lives, Adrian.
Um, so our executive producer,uh, kind of discovered you found
you and thought it would be awonderful to have you on, so, so
thank you.
I'm going to now kind of quicklyintroduce you and we'll, we'll
get into it.
So, uh, David, today we arethrilled and, uh, capital T
(00:51):
thrilled to have Adrian Milleron this week show.
Adrian is a scholar ofAfrican-American food.
He's the author of severalbooks, including soul food,
which won a 2014 James Beardfoundation award.
And he's the author of thepresident's kitchen cabinet for
which he was nominated for the2018 NAACP image award for
(01:13):
outstanding literary work.
Non-fiction he is aself-proclaimed recovering
lawyer.
That's curious and served as awhite house advisor to president
bill Clinton and Adrian Miller.
Welcome to hyphenated life.
Thank you for joining us fortoday's conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, it's a blessing to be with you.
Thank you for asking, invitingme.
Well, I'm gonna
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Start here because you are, you said you say a
recovering attorney, so that'sinteresting.
Uh, you are an award-winningfood writer, former special
assistant to president Clinton,and now you serve currently as
the executive director of theColorado council of churches.
Uh, and so David and I wouldlove to know more like how did
(01:55):
that happen?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, it's been an interesting journey.
So, uh, you know, for most, mostof my life, I thought I was
going to be an attorney forseveral years and then I would
shift and go into politics.
So I thought I would be theSenator from Colorado at some
point in my life.
Uh, so, uh, I got the, so it wasinteresting.
I just hated practicing law.
That's why I became a returningrecovering attorney.
(02:19):
Um, it just got to the pointwhere I was singing spirituals
in my office.
Do you know how dispiriting itis to be in your office as the
sun is rising and you're singingDayo?
So, um, I knew that I knewwanted to do something else.
So I was gonna actually open upa soul food restaurant, got a
chance to work in the Clintonwhite house, uh, for something
called the initiative for oneAmerica.
(02:39):
And, um, that was just the, thecrazy idea behind that is that
if we just talked to one anotherand listened, we probably
realized that we have a lot morein common than what supposedly
divides us.
And so the shift of food writinghappened, uh, the short answer
is unemployment.
So after my stint with theClinton white house was over, I
was trying to get back toColorado to my political career,
(03:00):
but the job market was reallyslow.
And I was watching a lot ofdaytime television.
I'm not even going to tell youwhat shows come on, give us,
give us something.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
It will just start it'll hurt my rep too much.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Um, and the, the depth of my okay.
Blind date, if you ever rememberthat show blind date.
Yes.
I watched hours of that and loveconnection.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
[inaudible] connection.
Yeah.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Um, and then, uh, in the depth of my depravity, I
said, I should read something.
So I went to the local bookstoreand I'm browsing the, in the
food section cause I'd alwayslove to cook.
And I found this book by JohnEdgerton called Southern folk
food at home, on the road inhistory.
And in that book, he said, hewrote that the tribute to black
achievement in American cookeryhad yet to be written.
And that one sentence is whatlaunched me on the journey.
(03:46):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
What grabbed your attention about that?
That, that, that didn't exist.
And so what connected in yourown soul that, that just,
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I have to do this, uh, you know, I can't explain
it.
It was just like, Oh, I could dothat.
And then really seriously, I'dnever even thought about writing
a book, especially when I'm foodor anything like that, but
something spoke to me and Ithink, um, I've always been
interested in history.
I was interested in cooking.
And so one thing that alwaysgrabs at me is just these untold
stories.
(04:16):
Um, and just making sure thatAfrican-Americans are recognized
for their contributions tovarious aspects of our country.
And so that was just a treatintriguing.
And, you know, the book was 14years old when I picked it up.
So I just thought somebody haddone that.
So I actually emailed Mr.
Edgerton and asked him thatquestion.
And he said, you know, nobody'sdone it.
There's always room for anothervoice.
(04:36):
Why not yours?
So with no, uh, noqualifications at all, except
for eating a lot of soul foodand cooking at some that I went
at it, I went at it very good.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yeah.
And I, I, my background is inmusic.
I have degrees in music andstudied classical singing and
all the way through graduateschool, where you get into start
, you get to take electives andget to the not mainstream stuff.
So you can get into some ethnomusicology and you start to see
some patterns in, in, in highart and music and in art, visual
(05:11):
art in the culinary arts wherewe have this white
westernization focus, uh, on thehistory of it and the other
elements are considered fringe.
Um, and, and you start to kindof not like that.
And, and, uh, for example, Ithink of most banjo players in
our country today are, are whiteguys and bluegrass bands, you
(05:33):
know, but the origin of thatinstrument and where it came
from was from Africa.
And I grew up in the South and,uh, I'm sure we'll get more into
this later.
I am in love with Southern soulfood, new Orleans in particular,
and, and lately the past five to10 years, uh, smoked meats,
barbecue, and almost more thaneating it, which is a
(05:56):
transcendental.
I love the, the energy and storybehind its origin.
And it seems like that's whatyou're writing books about.
You know, you go through in yourbook about soul food, you not
only, you know, name what theyare and how to make them and a
few different options, but wherethey came from.
And I was wondering if you couldtalk a little bit about that in
(06:18):
the origins of soul food inAmerica.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Yeah.
So in the, in the quest fortelling these untold stories,
you know, part of it is, well,what is the history?
Because there's one version ofhistory that's told, but you
know, you don't know if that'sthe real story.
And so when it comes to soulfood, that there's really two
main narratives.
One is that it's slave food.
And the implications of that islike, Oh, it's not worthy of
(06:43):
being celebrated.
Or what I heard from a lot ofAfrican-Americans is like, Hey,
you know, can we get past that?
Why are we still recognizingthat?
Uh, and the other thing is thatthis food is inherently
unhealthy.
It needs a warning label.
Why are you eating that stuff?
And so I just wanted to sort outfact from fiction.
And, um, you know, what I foundout is that this, this masters
(07:04):
leftovers garbage throw awaything is just not, that's part
of the story, but it's soul foodis so much more complex and soul
food and Southern food becauseit's really a bringing together
a West Africa, a Western Europeand the Americas and those
ingredients and culinarytraditions are all coming
together in the American South.
Um, and so the narrative justreally starts to melt once, once
(07:26):
it's held up to historicalscrutiny.
And what I found is that really,when it comes to the South, it's
more about class and place thanrace, because a lot of poor
whites were eating the samestuff as enslaved.
African-Americans just adifferent context.
Um, and so that was enlighteningto me.
And then this whole idea thatit's, you know, needs a warning
(07:47):
label.
Uh, soul food is really thecelebration food of the South.
That's taken out of the Southand transplanted across the
country in a different context.
And celebration.
Food is not meant to be eaten onthe regular.
It's supposed to be everywhere,right?
This will shock a lot of people,but you know, who think they
have a constitutional right tofried chicken, but fried chicken
(08:08):
was something that was servedevery once in a while.
I mean, you would have it in thespring, uh, maybe just for
Sunday dinner.
And so the fact that we can havefried chicken multiple times a
day now, um, you know, it'sjust, it's, we're eating
celebration food out of the carout of context, you know,
Speaker 3 (08:22):
For the record, we're here at pine street, church
three blocks from the post friedchicken and beer restaurant,
which I'm guessing you've beento.
And you know, that they've donea pretty good job of doing their
research on how to make thatstuff really good.
And, and we probably, uh, havetaken it careful a little bit
beyond the celebratoryexperience.
And, uh, but you, you know, it,it comes and goes.
(08:45):
And, uh, yeah, I, I, I grew upin Pensacola, Florida, and I
remember eating fried chickenevery Sunday after church at one
of two places.
One was at Pensacola club, theother was the pickin's house.
Um, and as a child to have thefondest memories I can think of
it was ritualistic, right.
Um, it's one of the elements offood, uh, that I find spiritual.
(09:09):
It, it is ritual in theconsumption of it in the
creation of it.
Um, and I don't know if he, ifyou have any relation to food
like that.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Oh, absolutely.
So, uh, I've, I've always beenas a person of faith.
I've always been kind ofintrigued with kind of the
intersection of food andspirituality.
Um, and it's an it's obviousintersection, but, you know, in
today's world, we've, we'vedivorced that with the way that
we connect with nature, our foodsystem, um, fewer people have, I
don't have an active spirituallife.
(09:42):
Um, it always amazes me howpeople are just curious that I'm
bending over and praying over myfood before I eat it when I'm in
a public space.
So, you know, when it comes tofried chicken, I did a whole
chapter.
What I called the integration ofchurch and plate, you know, and,
and black tradition, uh, friedchickens called the gospel bird,
or some people call it Sundayclock.
(10:03):
And so I go back into that.
And what you find is that, um,there was a connection with
chickens and spirituality, evenin West Africa, and that comes
across the Atlantic.
And so in many ways, in which afried chicken, it becomes a very
important part of black culture.
And it's tied to church life andspirituality.
And even in a non-Christiancontext, you see chicken show up
(10:25):
in, uh, a spiritual life, um,you know, Santa voodoo and other
things like that, but it justshows you, there's a, there's a
continuum of experience,spiritual experience with fried
chicken that goes backcenturies.
And so it was fascinating tokind of track that history.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, that's amazing.
The fried chicken one is a, is afascinating subject matter too.
There's a documentary series onNetflix by David Yang, uh, chef,
uh, sort of world famous chefit's called ugly delicious, and
each episode focuses on a foodtype.
Um, and that's another metaphorthat food can give us about
(11:01):
celebrating diversity.
No, all the chicken is chicken,but all fry.
They're all kinds of friedchicken, you know, from, from
Korea to India, to America, to,you know, I th I think you
talked about that there's sometheories out there that, uh,
American Southern American stylefried chicken is, uh, actually
(11:22):
Scottish inherited possibly.
Um, it's not, uh, there's,there's some ambiguity there to
that story, but in this series,uh, ugly, delicious David Yang,
uh, in his episode about friedchicken goes around.
He does a great job of talkingabout some of the more delicate
nuances of it, uh, historicallywhat it's represented.
And you, you know, you've sortof hinted at some of that, but I
(11:43):
love this idea that the, uh,soul food Southern food is
isn't, isn't, uh, some kind oflesser tier.
Um, and there's a chef that heinterviews at Waldo Jordan, um,
who has recently opened arestaurant after working at
French laundry in Napa and perse in New York city to, you
know, to have Thomas Keller'sworld renowned, you know,
(12:06):
restaurant of the year typethings.
It's absolute pinnacle of theculinary arts.
And here's a guy, uh, you know,an African-American guy with
Georgia and Florida roots, who,who was making high French
cuisine in, in, when it camedown to, you know, what he
wanted to do in a vacuum.
He, he created this restaurantcalled June baby, and he has a
(12:27):
quote that I love, and he says,I could cook ox tails and press
the meat into a terrain andcover it with edible flowers.
Instead, I want people toexperience my mother's oxtails,
tearing the meat off the bone,that moment of restoring your
soul.
And there is just something sobeautiful about that.
(12:48):
And, uh, not that high culinaryart food doesn't have soul to
it, but certainly there's thisopportunity there for that
experience, that more visceralexperience, you're not gonna
break the beautiful work of art,you know, it's, it's, hands-on,
it's, it's deep, it takes a longtime to make.
(13:08):
Um, and so, I don't know.
Do you have, what are yourthoughts on, on that element of
soul food of Southern food?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah.
So first of all, let me justsay, I've been to chef Jordan's
restaurant, June baby, and hehas another place called Solari,
and man, it is next level foodthat's bucket list for me.
Yeah.
And, uh, and, and speaking offried chicken, so he only serves
fried chicken on Sundays limitededition.
There's a line.
And he's told me he has seenpeople weep fried chicken in a
(13:36):
good way.
Yeah.
So, uh, you know, yeah.
You know, often when we talkabout food, there's kind of this
high and low aspect of it.
And I think for too long, a timesoul food has been solely in the
low category, which kind of, um,you know, it's like considered
good working class food.
Right.
But the, the problem with thatis I think it under plays that
(13:59):
the skill level that's broughtinto making that food.
And so for a fine dining chef,like Eduardo Jordan, to
celebrate that and incorporatethat in what he does.
Um, and now I think that hasactually my book and other food
writers have now invited are-examination of these kinds of
working class vernacularcuisines, as some have called it
(14:21):
to say, no, there's artistryhere.
And, um, we shouldn't gloss overthat.
Um, they may not have beenprofessionally chain trained in
a culinary school, but there'sartistry here.
And here's the actual untoldstory that are least Lee Lee's
told story about.
Um, enslaved cooks.
A lot of them did apprenticeunder French chefs.
Um, and that's a story that'sundertold, uh, and so, uh, I,
(14:44):
I'm just not skilled and Frenchcuisine, but I would love for
somebody who knows Frenchcuisine inside and out to go
through these old cookbooks andsay, Oh yeah, that's a French
technique there.
It's not identified, but that'sa French technique.
And the only example I can thinkof, and David you'll probably
use, I'm sure you've had thisbefore is spoon bread.
If you, if you sit back and lookat spoon bread, another way,
(15:05):
it's a cornbread souffle.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah.
Which is fairly that you learnedthat in the French cooking
schools.
Okay.
Wow.
That's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
But nobody talks about spoon bread that way.
Right.
It's just a type of cornbreadfor most people.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Absolutely.
So, Adrian, you mentioned thatyou you're a person of faith and
of course you're the executivedirector of the Kolo, uh,
Colorado council of churches.
Um, how did you come to theColorado council of churches and
David and I have been talkingabout how we at pine street
church, we, we ought to be allin with that, right.
As a, as a partner here in theDenver Boulder area.
(15:45):
But how did you, uh, I wouldjust say a couple of things, one
, uh, how did your experiencebeing a foodie?
Uh, and then now you're theexecutive director of a
wonderful, progressive, uh, uh,organization, uh, in Boulder.
I mean, excuse me in Denver.
Uh, how did, how did that cometo be for you?
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, so it was really because of my work, um,
in politics.
So when I came back to Colorado,after the Clinton white house, I
got a job at something calledthe bell policy center, like
ring the bell.
And that was a progressive thinktank, which was new for
Colorado.
Cause we had things tanks, butthey tended to be very
conservative.
And so, um, the idea behind thethink tank was okay, how can we
(16:27):
take people who are consistentlyat society's margins and get
them to a point ofself-sufficiency through policy
and biblically.
It's like, you know, how do wetake care of the least of these?
Uh, so I was doing that workwith the bell policy center and
I was the outreach director.
So my, my task was to connectwith different constituencies.
(16:48):
So I can't re I think it was, uh, work on the taxpayer bill of
rights.
That was one of our majorprojects for a couple of years.
I just thought, Hey, we shouldconnect with the faith
community.
And so I found the council ofchurches.
And so my predecessor, theReverend Dr.
Jim Ryan was executive.
At that time, I got to know himbetter.
We, we hit it off.
And so, um, he, the councilchurch just had something, they
(17:08):
called a justice commission,which was focused on just kind
of work, like paying attentionto policy work and seeing where
faith communities can intersect.
So I was on that and I was stillon that when I came to work for
a governor, bill Ritter Jr.
But you know, being, working fora governor, it was just too hard
to make the meetings.
So, um, he asked me to head up atask force and then we went out
(17:30):
to lunch and I thought we werejust going to talk about the
task force.
And he said, yeah, you know, I'mactually going to re tire.
You should think about applyingfor my job.
Well, I was like, you know, Ihad my Moses moment.
I was like, what now not mepastor.
And he's like, you don't have tobe a pastor.
You just have to have a heartfor social justice.
So I just applied for the jobjust because he thought so much
of me, I should, I should atleast apply.
(17:52):
And I was convinced I wasn'tgoing to get it.
Cause I remember as I was beinginterviewed, someone asked me,
you know, what are thetheological differences between
the Lutheran church and theEpiscopal church?
How would you explain that?
And I just looked at the person.
I said, well, I don't know muchbecause I thought I wasn't the
dead duck, but I guess thathonesty was refreshing.
And so I've been in thatposition for eight years.
(18:14):
And for those who don't knowwhat the council of churches is,
uh, it's two-fold mission.
And we, we say walking togetherand faith working together for
justice.
So the first part is ecumenical.
So like, how can we break downour silos?
Cause we, we, Christians, we'vedefinitely kind of built these
silos, right?
How can we break those down andget to know each other?
Uh, and then the second thing isthen building on those
(18:35):
relationships to do socialjustice work.
Um, so we represent 13 Christiandenominations, mainly, um,
mainline, Protestant,denominations, and some others.
We have a few conservativedenominations.
And for those who have neverheard of us, we're the ones who
host the Easter sunrise serviceat red rocks every year.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Oh, there it is.
Wow.
That's a, a well attended.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Um, so next year will be our 75th year.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Wow.
Well, we'll talk to our heartfor missions, team David here at
the church, but, uh, that that'sjust right up, you know, right
up our alley in terms of who weare theologically.
So, so Adrian, um, in terms ofyour passion for social justice
and connecting that with yourkind of faith journey, where did
you grow up and, and how did, uh, faith become, uh, such a
(19:24):
central part of your own life?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
All right.
So I'm about to immediately losestreet cred on the subject of
Southern food and soul food.
But I grew up here in Denver,uh, when moved to Aurora when I
was a little kid.
So this is how it went peopleback.
Um, my parents are from theSouth, my mom's from
Chattanooga, Tennessee, my dad'sfrom Helena, Arkansas.
Wow.
Uh, so, you know, um, growing upin Denver and then moving to the
(19:46):
suburbs, I mean majority whitesuburbs, um, I'm grateful to my
parents for a lot of things, buttwo things, um, particularly
here that are applicable hereare keeping me connected to a
black church.
So we, we, uh, we continued togo to the church that I'm still
a member of today, uh, Campbellchapel, African Methodist,
Episcopal church.
(20:07):
So even though it was in thesuburbs, we made the Trek, you
know, multiple times a week forpractices and then church as
well and activities.
Uh, and then also my mom cookssoul food.
Uh, and you know, I took thatfor granted cause I was like,
well, why wouldn't somebody dothat?
But I, um, going on to collegeand encountering
African-Americans from differentparts of the country who had a
(20:27):
very similar story to mine, buttheir parents decided to shed
kind of associations with blacklife maybe to fit in with the
new community.
I don't know.
There's a lot of reasons whypeople do those things, but, uh,
I'm grateful.
My parents did not do that andmade it important for me to be
immersed in black culture, evenif it was just on the weekends.
Nice.
Um, so I was
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Thinking, uh, kind of moving along here, uh, in the,
for the sake of time, uh, youare a food historian and your
second book, um, is called thepresident's kitchen cabinet, uh,
that I think came out in 2017and you explore there the
history of African Americanchefs and the white house.
(21:09):
And, um, I'm sort of a politicalnerd to a degree, lived in DC
for a couple of years.
And did you say separation ofchurch and plate?
I did separation of church andstate for a couple of years
there.
Uh, but in your research fromthat book, the president's
kitchen cabinet, uh, what didyou learn and what keeps
bubbling up maybe for you thatour listeners might be curious
(21:30):
about with that?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So one thing your listeners may not know is that
every president of the UnitedStates has had an
African-American cooking forthem in some capacity, whether
it was in the white housebasement kitchen, or when they
went on air force one or whenthey went on the presidential
train or the presidential yacht,or when someplace to stay,
Speaker 2 (21:48):
There was a presidential yacht, by the way
that, that was, that was prettycool to find out.
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, yeah.
W w the, the yacht disappearedduring the Carter administration
cause you know, he was a man ofthe people and he just thought
it was too much of a statussymbol.
And a lot of members of Congresswere really upset about his
decision to get rid of theyacht.
In fact, one of the Congressmanwho criticized him most
strenuously was representativeDick Cheney.
(22:14):
He just felt the presidentdidn't understand how important
that is.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah.
We've all experienced it.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
And then, you know, one was just, I, first of all, I
just wish I had gotten the ideafor this book while I was in the
white house.
Cause I could have gotten somuch scoop because I had top
secret clearance at that time.
Oh man.
But yeah, it came to meafterwards.
Um, but the, the, the, the, justthe presence of
African-Americans in white housefood history, because, um, if
you were to just step back andlook at the grand scope of white
(22:47):
house workers in the kitchen,the typical white house worker
was a black woman.
And it's only really recentlythat it's not, that has not been
the case.
And that's really started in1960 when, uh, first lady
Jacqueline Kennedy wanted toelevate white house food.
And so made a market turntowards hiring, uh, classically
trained European chefs.
(23:07):
We don't, that's not the higherrate now, but that, that fine
dining aspect kind of underminedthe hires of African-Americans
because they just didn't haveaccess to those culinary schools
could cook fine, but they justweren't trained in that way.
Um, and what I found out the,another takeaway is that in many
cases, they played an importantrole in nourishing, um, our
(23:28):
first families and nurturingthem in many ways, but also, you
know, in, in certain spots theywere civil rights activists.
Um, we have examples now, um,there's a, there's a code of
silence around the white houseand the servants.
So we don't know all the thingsthat happen, but we do know
there were examples in historywhere presidents would go and
talk to the staff and just checkin with them and to see how
(23:48):
black America was acceptingtheir policies.
And interesting thing happened alot, but it happens sometimes.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Uh, Adrian, I'm curious too, I think from, uh,
the president's kitchen cabinetbook where, uh, and I might be
not, I might not remember thisexactly.
Right.
But you said since from GeorgeWashington to president Obama,
that there were black chefs inthe white house, uh, uh, black
cooks in the white house.
(24:14):
Could you say a little bit moreabout that and, and did that end
with president Obama, by theway, we were kind of wondering
about that.
Um, uh, earlier, before wehopped on with you,
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Right?
So the first thing is, um, a lotfrom the beginning, the white
house kitchen has beenmulti-class in this sense,
you've had enslaved cooks or aslave to African-Americans
working next, alongside freeAfrican-Americans and indentured
whites working along freewhites.
So it's been very multi-classand multi-racial from its
beginning, but, um, we've had alot of, we had a lot of slave
(24:47):
holding presidents.
And so, um, people may not knowthis, but prior to Truman
presidents had to pay for thecooks and a lot of staff out of
their own pocket.
And so if you are a slaveholder, it just made a whole lot
more sense to bring yourenslaved cook, who you didn't
have to pay to the white houseto cook for you, then hiring
somebody on the open labormarket.
So a lot that's what happened.
(25:08):
So a lot of white house cookswere enslaved cooks who happened
to be cooking for that person inprivate life.
And that's the path to the whitehouse really, until you get to
the 1960s, most people areaccidental.
They were the previous cook orservant of a president, and that
person brings them to the whitehouse.
And then, um, a lot of it waswho you knew.
So people already in thelighthouse, whenever there was
(25:30):
an opening, they would tap arelative or somebody they knew
to fill those spots.
Um, and it's only recent historythat you have more variety.
So, um, so you have a lot ofenslaved cooked.
And then for most of ourcountry's history, cooking was
not considered a glamorousthing.
Um, not like it is now.
So it was considered menial workand the racial norms of our
(25:50):
country, um, for a lot of ourhistory has been, if there's
menial work, make black peopledo it and don't pay them a lot
of money.
So if they weren't enslavedgoats, a lot of the free people
cooking in the lighthouse whereAfrican-Americans, so, you know,
by the time you get to saysomeone like Rutherford, B
Hayes, the entire staff is blackand he was president 1870s.
Um, and that, so that's, that'sreally kind of the rhythms of
(26:13):
presidential history.
Um, and so, uh, but then afterslavery ends and he knows still
African-Americans were thoughtof as the cooks.
And so again, there's just thiscultural momentum that you have
black people doing the cooking.
And if you look at food history,step back, I mean, you know, as
much as Latino cooks dominatekitchens today in most
commercial kitchens, you know,if you open the door and look at
(26:35):
the kitchen, it's mostly Latinoscooking, regardless of who's the
owner, right?
The figurehead that's, whatAfrican-Americans were, that was
the status of African-Americansa hundred years ago.
Most of these restaurants werestaffed by black cooks.
So it's not surprising that thewhite house had the same
dynamic.
So, um, but since the 1960s withthe increase in hires of white
chefs and others, uh,African-American presence
(26:55):
doesn't disappear entirely.
It certainly decreases, but itdoesn't disappear.
Um, and so, um, usually thereare two or three African
Americans on a presidentialstaff.
So there were in Trump'sadministration as, and I, I'm
not sure sir, about the Bidenadministration, cause I just
don't know who's cooking there,but I would assume that there
are African-Americans who werecooking for Trump who stayed
there because typically thosecooks don't rotate out.
(27:17):
It's usually the only theexecutive chef that has to worry
about getting fired with thechange of administration.
And the current executive chefis a Philippina named Christina
Comaford and she's been cookingsince the second term of George
W.
Bush.
So this is a quite lengthy runfor an
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Executive chef.
Wow.
Well, in Adrian, you're inDenver, Colorado.
Now we know that you grew up inDenver and, um, I've, I've read
somewhere where you say that thebeginning, even the beginning of
, um, Colorado statehood, blackchefs have been producing top
shelf cuisine, and yet they havebeen underrepresented in
Denver's food story at what canyou tell us about that?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
So part of that I think is just a media creation
is just the people.
And this has been a long runningproblem and American media, the
people who decide what storiesget told and who to spotlight
have tended to be white.
And, um, they just really didn'tvalue African Americans.
So to the extent that these, uh,African-American cooks are noted
(28:18):
in, um, our print media, um, ithas often been a very terse, you
know, like description often toridicule, but, um, you know, you
don't, you don't have a lot oflengthy portraits of these cooks
, um, compared to others.
Now, again, we're in a foodiemoment.
So it wasn't really, uh, youknow, fashionable at the time to
(28:40):
spend a lot of time talkingabout a cook the way we do now,
but still you do have portraitsof cooks here and there and you
just don't see a lot ofAfrican-Americans being
celebrated.
And part of that was status.
Uh, and you know, even in, whensomebody was celebrated to get
their full name was a rarity,because that person was not
considered a full human being.
So they would just be called,you know, uncle, whatever, aunt,
(29:01):
whatever, and you wouldn't getthe full name.
Um, and so, uh, that's just beenpart of just, um, media history
here, but it's better now.
I mean, to some extent you'll,you'll have African-Americans
noted, but the problem now isthat it's very difficult for an
entrepreneur to start arestaurant because you have to
(29:21):
have access to capital.
You've got to have a good teambehind you.
You got to have somebody to makesure you're meeting all the
ordinances and requirements andall that kind of stuff.
So a lot goes into running arestaurant.
And, um, it's, it's just harderto do that nowadays,
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Especially at that higher end level that would get
that sort of notice.
Yeah.
Right.
Well, I wanted to connect thisin the short time we have left
because we, uh, of course theworld got word, uh, was that
yesterday or two days ago nowabout the, uh, Derek Shovan
trial, the former Minneapolispolice officer who knelt on
(29:58):
George Floyd's neck and wasconvicted in all three counts
this week, uh, all three countsagainst him.
And what, uh, most folks believeis the most con consequential
trial, certainly in the blacklives era, uh, black lives
matter era.
I I'd be curious Adrian, aboutyour thoughts about that.
And you wrote an article in foodand wine magazine last year
(30:21):
about the Louisville chef, uh,David Mcity, who was killed by
law enforcement in June of 2020.
And, uh, I believe ran his, itYaz barbecue shack in
Louisville, Kentucky.
And I loved in that article inthe food and wine magazine
article, you, um, in theaftermath of that, you
celebrated his life in barbecue,as you, as you write the
(30:43):
article.
And, um, I think he's beenremembered for great barbecue
and being just a good person.
Uh, but, but what, what mightyou connect with the breaking
news of this week and the DerekShovan trial, and also thinking
about the, the, the David Mcity,uh, story that you seem to be
close to and wrote about?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yeah, so, you know, um, this, the, the verdict was
memorable in the sense that, uh,you have a sense, like finally,
some accountability for what'swhat's happened.
And you know, the other thingthat's been shocking is since
George Floyd get a lot of peoplestill getting killed and, um, it
just doesn't ever seem to beaccountability.
(31:24):
And one thing that was reallystruck me, because I think of it
as justice and accountability,but, you know, there've been
some people saying this is notjustice because George Floyd is
not still alive.
Um, and it only, you can onlyhave justice if it's
restorative.
I'm not sure I agree with thatfully because I think there are
different forms of justice.
And that, to me, I've alwaysgrown up with the idea that
justice, in this sense is you dosomething horribly wrong.
(31:47):
If you go to a trial and you getconvicted, then you serve time
for that.
So we'll have to see whathappens with sentencing.
That's another part of thestory, but, um, it, it just
speaks to, um, a certain levelof fatigue that these things
keep happening.
Um, and you know, what I'm goingto say is a little charged
because I have not done asystemic study, you know, a
(32:08):
scientific study or anythinglike that, but it just seems
like when African-Americans areinvolved, there's always the use
of lethal, lethal force thatleaves the forest is more used
more often than not.
And there's so many stories ofpeople who have actually killed
other people, uh, or white, butthey get taken into custody.
And so, um, you know, I thinktensions are high, um, senses
(32:30):
are heightened.
And, um, I think though we haveto use this as a teaching
moment, right?
And I'm hoping that there'll bepulpits across the country where
people will talk about this.
And I know it's hard in somecongregations to talk about
black lives matters and racialjustice.
I know people have told me that.
Um, but I know pastors who havetalked about racial justice and
(32:51):
people get up and leave midsermon.
I know that there are people wholeave churches when, uh, when I
went to pastor talks aboutracial justice.
But, uh, you know, at some pointwe have to talk about this stuff
and it gets back to my work inthe lighthouse, right?
It's we have to sit down, talkto one another and listened.
And that means people are infavor of black lives matter and
(33:11):
racial justice sitting down andlistening to somebody who's not
feeling that and trying tounderstand, well, where are they
coming from?
Uh, and we have fewer and fewerspaces in our society where we
can come together in terms ofdifferent walks of life.
And to me, one of the few spacesleft is the church and the
table.
So I'm spending a lot of timingtime thinking about, well, how
can I join those?
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah, that's all well said in, uh, in you're uniquely
qualified to have a reallypowerful perspective there.
Appreciate that.
Um, so we're rounding up hereand as we round up, I wanna, I
wanna talk about your soon to bereleased.
I'm looking on Amazon right nowand you can, pre-order black
(33:53):
smoke.
African-Americans in the UnitedStates of barbecue.
Uh, I will be pre-ordering thisbook.
I am very excited about this.
It looks, uh, as we were talkingabout before, beyond just the
wonderful transcendentexperience of eating some of the
most delicious food on theplanet, it looks inspiring.
(34:13):
It looks, uh, you know,educational, motivational.
Can you tell us a little bitabout this book, black smoke?
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Yeah.
Thank you for a moment to, topub it.
So, uh, the book, I did notintend to write a book, um, you
know, several years ago, butthen I had a traumatic
experience.
I was watching the food networkand there was a commercial for
Paula Dean's Southern barbecuehour long, special, and I would
want it to learn more aboutbarbecue because so many as soul
(34:41):
food joints have a barbecueoption on the menu.
And so many black owned barbecuejoints have a soul food sides.
So I thought, well, let me justwatch this show.
I'm B I'm sure I'm going tolearn some stuff.
So when the, after the hourshow, the credits are rolling,
my mouth is a gay because noAfrican-Americans were
interviewed on air.
And I first, the thing I thoughtwas, how does this even happen?
And then the second thing Ithought is, well, maybe I got it
(35:04):
twisted.
Maybe it was Paula DeanScandinavian, barbecue.
And I just, uh, and so I startedlooking at other media and I
just saw African-Americans arenot being mentioned in this
hugely popular cuisine.
So black smoke is a partcelebration.
It's a celebration ofAfrican-American barbecue
culture.
And then it's also, um, andincluding, I have a whole
(35:25):
chapter on church, barbecue.
I call it burnt offerings.
Oh, nice.
Yeah.
And I, I show how, um, barbecuehas been distracting to my
spiritual life.
So I don't know about you all,but every time I hear the words
burn offerings, my mouth, mymind starts to wander, um, the
whole burning Bush story.
Do you ever wonder if it smelledlike Hickory or Oh, maybe MIS,
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Right, right.
Even, even a pecan or yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah.
The Valley of dry bones.
Did you think of them as spareribs and then it's restoration
it's it's moving back.
It was moving African-Americansback to what I call the center
of the fire or in this case, theAfrican-American barbecue story,
because African-Americans havebeen pushed to the sidelines and
that's just not right.
Because African-Americans forcenturies were not only
(36:14):
barbecues, principal cooks, butalso, um, it's most effective
ambassadors.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Right?
Absolutely.
Um, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Oh, and I just say one more thing.
You can actually pre-order itfrom my website, soul food,
scholar.com and you'll get anautographed copy and I'm happy
to sign that any way you want,if you want me to say, I
couldn't have written this bookwithout you.
I'm happy to.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Well, I it's all of us.
Right.
We're all in all of us.
Barbecue enthusiasts.
Um, yeah.
And on your website also, youhave, for those listeners in
Colorado, you have a great listof, uh, barbecue restaurants
there.
Um, so get out there, do a tour,do, do one every other Sunday
and, and get out there, see whatthere is to be had because what
(36:59):
a world that is, um, for, Ithink I read somewhere your,
your, uh, official barbecue, um,uh, competition judge, which was
a small dream of mine, for sure.
But, um, you know, the, thebeauty of this as an art form, I
really we'll call it an art formin a communal experience is just
(37:19):
off the charts, in my opinion,and to capture it, uh, captured
that.
And also in this sort of, uh, Ilike the restorative component
of this, like giving, giving therecognition where it's been do
from the beginning to these,these black barbecue, uh,
artists let's call them that.
And, uh, I can't wait to get myhands on that.
(37:41):
And, and, uh, there also appearto be a bunch of recipes in
there.
So I'll be trying those out.
Um, and, you know, getting myrubs in my, the woods is smoking
woods and all that stuff.
And it's going to be a funsummer for sure.
Absolutely
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Great Hadrian Miller soul food scholar.
Thanks for being on hyphenatedlife.
Adrian Miller we're grateful.
Thank you.
(38:17):
[inaudible] hyphenated life.
Its production of pine streetchurch in Boulder, Colorado
hosted by David Long Jew andAndrew Doerr produced by Phil
Norman, executive producer,Alexi molding, special things to
today's guest, the Leo Hilltrust of Boulder, Colorado, and
pine street church.
If today's episode has inspired,you reach out to us at
(38:39):
hyphenated life on our Facebook,Instagram, and Twitter pages.
You can also findus@hyphenatedlife.org.
If you were looking for aspiritual community, we'd love
to join you on that journey.
Go to pine street, church.net tofind out more[inaudible].
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