July 8, 2021 • 35 mins
We are delighted and humbled that Titan of Celtic Christianity, John Philip Newell, joined us from Edinburgh, Scotland to talk about his upcoming book, Sacred Earth, Sacred Soul.
John Philip is one of the leading Celtic teachers and authors of spirituality in the world. He calls the modern world to reawaken to the sacredness of the earth and every human being.
Hyphenated Life bonds with JP around the similar paths we take towards breaking down the wall between the sacred and the secular by recognizing the sacredness in everything and everyone.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It reminds me of a wonderful week that we have in
the high desert of New Mexico.
A number of years ago, when Iwas teaching with my rabbi
brother from Santa Fe, nothomework lab, we did the whole
week on, on marsh and goobers.
Uh, I thou and, um, and the, uh,you know, the, the hyphen
(00:21):
between I am now is, um, I mean,we increasingly came to see that
that is, uh, that's the veryessence of relationship it's in
that sort of high thumb, uh,connection between the heart of
my being and the heart fear ofbeing, or the heart of me and
the harsh purple thing aroundband.
(00:42):
So we were celebrating thehyphen.
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
We often say as a sort of catch phrase, you know,
trying to live life in thehyphen, um, to not get caught in
the false dualities and thepolarization of our world.
And, you know, it's, it's sayingthe same thing that you are
saying in your book, you know,that, uh, we need to recognize
the sacred in everything in theplanet and each other and
ourselves.
And the more we try to separatethose worlds and pretend like it
(01:11):
doesn't exist in some places.
And it does, and others, thefurther the divide culturally,
you know, it just it's it.
Yeah.
So we seek to delve into theblurred lines between sacred and
secular conceptually.
We could not be more thrilled,excited, um, humbled, grateful
(01:33):
to be joined by John PhilipNewell, the great Celtic
spirituality, um, theologian.
I mean,
Speaker 3 (01:41):
He's been such an inspiration.
I, I call him all, he's anauthor, he's a teacher, he's a
mystic, a revolutionary, I wouldsay a Sage.
He is somebody who really hashelped bring Celtic,
Christianity and Celticspirituality.
This sidestream of the Christiantradition, uh, into popular
consciousness.
And, uh, we're so, so delighted.
(02:03):
He's been so inspiring to me,uh, to have a chance to talk to
him today is a complete, uh,dream and delight.
And, uh, so if you don't knowwho John Philip Newell is,
you'll get to know a little bitmore about him today.
We're talking about his newbook, sacred earth, sacred soul
that just released two days ago,uh, through Harper, one
(02:24):
publishing and a wonderful bookthat is in some ways, probably a
culmination of a lot of his workover the last many years, um, as
a teacher and an author, but,uh, delighted to welcome John
Philip Newell a, you know, letus know we can call him JP,
which is pretty cool.
Yeah, that is, um, well, I,
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I, um, I was concerned that if she called me,
John, I wouldn't know who youwere speaking to.
Yeah.
I, I, my family and friends havealways, uh, I've never used John
.
Um, so, um, that was thedecision of my mother 68 years,
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Welcome to hyphenated life.
We invite you to join us on thisjourney to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
become more fully alive.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Hello friends, welcome to another episode of
hyphenated life.
We are delighted today towelcome John Philip Newell, uh,
to hyphenated life, thiswonderful conversation, a Celtic
teacher and author ofspirituality who calls the
modern world to reawaken to thesacredness of the earth and
(03:59):
every human being.
For those of you who might befamiliar with John Phillip
Newell's work, um, he's Canadianby birth, a citizen also of
Scotland.
And he resides with his familyin Edinburgh and works on both
sides of the Atlantic.
In 2016.
He began the school of earth andsoul originally called the
(04:20):
school of Celtic consciousnessand teaches regularly in the
United States and Canada, aswell as leading international
pilgrimage weeks on thewonderful isle of Iona and the
Western Isles of Scotland.
His PhD is from the universityof Edinburgh, and he has
authored over 15 books,including a new ancient harmony
(04:41):
sounds of the eternal, therebirthing of God and his now
book that, uh, as we'rerecording this, we'll be in
releasing this two days ago, areleases sacred earth, sacred
soul, John Philip Newell, whatan absolute delight to welcome
you to hyphenated life today.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Thank you, Andrew and David.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Well, um, so there's so much to talk about.
And, um, we were talking beforea little bit about how here at
pine street church in Boulder,Colorado, we record this podcast
in the basement of our church.
Uh, and, uh, you know, one ofthe things that I just want to
say upfront is I am hugelyinfluenced by John Philip Newell
(05:29):
in ways that I know.
And in some ways that I don'tknow, um, but Celtic,
spirituality has been deeplyformative for me over the last
decade or so.
And it began, um, on apilgrimage to Iona in the summer
of 2012.
And, um, uh, I do havepermission to call John Philip
Newell, JP, which makes me feellike, you know, I have sort of,
(05:52):
you know, a VIP access orsomething like that.
But, um, uh, so, uh, JPS workhas really influenced me and
Christ of the Celts.
Uh, John Phillip was one of theearly books that I, that I read
that really formed my owntheology.
And as we were talking about thewhole premise of our podcast,
(06:14):
uh, of the hyphenated life, whatdoes that mean?
Uh, we were talking aboutIrenaeus.
Uh, the glory of God is a humanbeing fully alive.
Um, and then, uh, Mary, uh,Madeline linguals a wonderful
line, there is nothing sosecular that it cannot be
sacred.
And so today to talk about yournew book sacred, a sacred soul
(06:37):
sacred earth is, is, uh, a hugemoment for us.
So thank you.
So I, I wanted to, uh, just sortof talk a little bit, you, you
say kind of right away, um, inthe introduction of the book, uh
, sacred earth, sacred soul,that you have nine sort of
figures from a CelticChristianity.
(06:58):
That really is really theoutline of the book.
I was just kind of curious tostart, um, very simply, uh, how
did you pick these nine figures?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Um, I think I went there much with, uh, figures who
have been, you know, may havespoken to my heart and my mind.
And, um, Paul was something of achronological line through the
centuries.
I think one of, one of thereasons why I'm always very keen
(07:30):
to point to, uh, a succession ofhistorical figures over the
centuries is that I think thatone of the rich features of this
tradition that we often refer toit as Celtic spirituality, it
has, um, uh, a rich sort ofancestry.
It, it, um, has, um, folded anddeveloped over many centuries.
(07:55):
Uh, so this is not a way ofseeing that just sort of popped
out to the blue now.
Um, but it has a deep lineage.
And, um, I mean, I couldn't failto start really, I think, with,
with Pelagius and in chapter one, um, he, he is perhaps the most
(08:16):
sort of seminal figure in, inthis tradition.
I think that he signals, uh, thethemes around sacredness of the
earth and sacred most of thehuman soul that, uh, every other
great teacher in this streampicks up on.
And then, you know, I go rightthrough to finishing with a
(08:38):
contemporary of mine of ours,Kenneth White poet, and, uh, one
of the, um, attractions for meand Kenneth, I mean, his, his
poetry so powerfully expressessome of the insights and
celebrations of sacredness ofbirth, sacredness of soul.
(09:02):
Um, but also one of the things Ilike about Kenneth Wyatt is, is
that he's not a tidy sort ofsoon up thinker.
And I think in many ways he is agood reflection of where many of
us are at this moment in time.
Uh, we're, we're still on ajourney and we're following our
(09:24):
conviction of sacredness withthe earth sacredness of the
human soul.
And, uh, we're, we're placing aconfidence in, in, uh, that
instinct for the sacredness atthe heart of all things, but we
don't know exactly how it'sgoing to play out.
Um, you know, collectively interms of our communities in
(09:46):
terms of our individual lives,in terms of the journey that
we're on, um, as an earthcommunity at this critical
moment in time.
So there's something very,open-ended about, um, Kenneth
White's vision that I wanted to,to end with, to, in the sense,
invite the reader into thatcontinuing unfolding journey.
(10:07):
This isn't a fixed up, um,highly defined tradition.
Um, it is trying to stay true toessential vision and realizing
that the thing that is living isforever changing unfolding
Speaker 3 (10:22):
You begin with uh plagiarists.
And, um, even when I read Christto the Celts, um, I was so
struck by that.
It's like, where's this heritagebeen all of my life.
And, and we've talked a lot even, uh, here in our community pine
street, church, Boulder, we'vetalked a lot about, you know,
the, the, the doctrine oforiginal sin, but where was the
(10:45):
doctrine of original blessing?
And, um, I love how you haveused him to, you know, help
reclaim and in a different way,sort of that side stream of
Christianity through the Celticworld.
And I love how you began withhim.
And I wonder if you might say alittle bit, I know you've talked
some about how the fourthcentury was so formative in
(11:08):
Christianity, not, not for the,not for the good necessarily,
but what would you say aboutplagiarists in terms of what we
could have the chance to reclaimfor a kind of contemporary
Christian spirituality today?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yes, the, uh, the fourth century was, was, uh, an
enormously critical moment inthe unfolding of, uh, Western
Christianity, uh, you know, uh,a church that had sort of one
day, and this had beenpersecuted by the mighty Roman
(11:45):
empire, uh, and the next dayalmost, uh, became the, the
religion of empire.
Um, so, uh, it's, I find itimportant to sort of get into
the, the mindset of what must'vebeen happening in the F in the
fourth century.
Um, uh, an enormous relief ofcourse, to be, uh, freed from
(12:09):
the threat of persecution.
Uh, but the freedom frompersecution came, came at
tremendous costs so that the,um, we, we know the phrase, an
inconvenient truth, and, um, theempire didn't want him to
convenient truths.
They wanted essentially to beable to continue as they had
(12:33):
had, had lived and treated theearth and treated other nations.
Uh, so some of the sort ofradical, um, vision that I
believe is at the heart of thecrash vision about sacredness of
the earth, sacredness of everyhuman being there for how we
handle the earth, how we viewand relate to one another, uh,
(12:58):
is, is radically challenged.
If, if we, if our starting pointis that every creature and the
matter of the earth and everyhuman being, um, are sacred.
So, um, Pelagius is, um, is awonderful figure.
I mean, I've been, I've beenthinking for many years, he, uh,
(13:18):
pretty exciting, uh, film couldbe made of pledges life.
This, this teacher who's, whoreally stands up against the
might of empire and, um, and themight of the Imperial church and
, um, and proclaims that rightat the heart of the gospel is
(13:40):
this celebration of thesacredness of every human being
and up the earth.
Uh, and we've been under theshadow of so much of, of what
began to happen in the fourthcentury when Christianity became
religion of empire.
And so many of our creedalstatements, uh, that still
(14:02):
formed the sort of center andstructure of so much Western
theology that all was formulatedin the fourth century and still
dominates a lot of WesternChristian perspective, uh,
whether in the Roman Catholictradition or in the Protestant
(14:22):
and reformed traditions.
So, uh, Pelagius is, is a voice.
And I, and one of my feelingsabout all of these historical
figures that I I draw on is that, uh, is that we need, we need
their voices again.
And that often when, uh, when werecognize our need and look for,
(14:48):
uh, articulation of vision,these figures from the past, um,
come to life again within us andamong us.
And I think plagiarism is one ofthese figures that is to
addressing the, the yearnings ofour hearts for this moment in
time, in terms of how we viewone another the earth.
(15:12):
Um, so I, I, you know, as, asyou mentioned, Andrew, he, he is
perhaps the most misrepresentedteacher of all time.
And certainly those, those of uswho studied theology in
Edinburgh, um, generation aftergeneration of theological
student, was required to writean essay comparing polygynous
(15:35):
with Santa's costume of hip hop.
And it was known full well in,in advance who the hero should
be and who the villain was tobe.
And, um, we were told that, um,very little, uh, about pledges.
We were, we were told that therewere no writings available from
his hand.
Um, but what we now know is thatthere are many writings
(15:57):
available, uh, from, from hishand, uh, we were told the T
taught that we didn't need grace, um, is very clear from his
writings that he, he did believethat we needed grace, but by
grace, um, he did not see graceas, as an energy from God that
is opposed to our nature.
(16:19):
Um, but rather he saw the, the,um, the, the stowing of grace
from God as given to reconnectus with our nature, that would
become not something other thannatural, but truly natural.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
If they were to make a movie about palladium, who do
you think should play him?
I'm thinking, and it's probablyinfluenced by the Marcus or
really his character thatRussell Crowe played in the
gladiator.
I could see like a, a sort of ayin and yang brother twins,
secret twin brother of MarcusAurelius also played by Russell
Crowe to come in and, uh, youknow, similar time period
(16:59):
fighting the empire.
Uh, I would go see that movie.
I think
Speaker 3 (17:03):
I love your cinematic imagination, David that's
really?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, yeah.
I think I might tap it forwarddown to the Hopkins.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Wow.
Yes.
He just won an Oscar didn't he?
I believe
Speaker 1 (17:14):
He did.
Yeah.
And they, they might have to patthem out a bit.
The, um, at one of thecriticisms at director that
alleges was that he wasoverweight from, from having
eaten too much Scott's porridge.
I don't know.
(17:34):
I mean, a lot of what was saidabout him was, um, you know, we,
we need to sort of read betweenthe lines as to what w w w what
was the criticism really?
And, um, a lot of the criticismsof privileges, for instance,
(17:55):
refer to them, spending too muchtime with women.
Uh, and, um, and this is becausehe believed that women were to
be taught to read and tointerpret the scriptures.
And, uh, this, this, it was notjust, uh, an idiosyncrasy of, of
alleged.
Yes, this was something that wasvery typical of the Celtic
(18:18):
Christian world, um, uprisingand honoring of the place of the
feminine and a role ofleadership by, by women.
Um, so, uh, when Pelagiusarrives in Rome, in the fourth
century, uh, with Christianityalready in bed with empire, um,
(18:39):
one of the features of Imperialreligion was this tragic
subordination of women.
And, um, a lack of celebration,even a fear of the feminine
Speaker 2 (18:52):
You talk about, um, in your looking back to these,
these figures in the history ofCeltic spirituality, how we're,
we're not looking back to themto save us now, but as
referenced to help reorient us.
And that the stories that welearned from them are playing
out still.
Um, and this idea, you know,this divergence in the fourth
(19:13):
century where one sort ofnarrative became dominant and
the other fell into obscurity,um, you think of marginalization
of people.
Um, you had a beautiful, uh,anecdote in your book about you
were speaking to these, theseideas that you write about in
the book in a, I believe it wasa Mohawk elder hat.
(19:33):
Was that one of your, one ofyour, um, speaker engagements
and, and spoke to youafterwards, that he wished that
the colonialists who came overto occupy north America, instead
of coming to look to, you know,take advantage of the land and
the people it's stead, if theycame to look for the light in
the spirit and soul of thenative peoples, how their story
(19:56):
might be different.
Um, I don't know if you canspeak to that a little bit about
today in, in, in historically,and today, specifically how
marginalization comes to bebecause of not paying attention
to all these things that you'veyou are writing about.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yes.
Uh, that was, um, for me, uh, apowerful moment to, to hear the
Mohawk elder speak so powerfully, um, and, and to offer such a
critique of, uh, um, Europeanexpansionism, but also what the
(20:33):
arm of the church and thatImperial expansionism
represented.
Um, and, uh, his words speakvery powerfully and alternate to
the historical, um, sacrilegeof, of nature traditions, and
(20:54):
failing to see, and to look forthe light at the heart of every
people at the heart of everytradition.
But I think his words, uh, speakprophetically to, to this moment
in time, uh, not only in termsof our failure to recognize the
sacredness of the earth and theeffort to handle the body of the
(21:15):
earth and the resources of theearth with reverence and with
care and with equity.
Um, but, uh, they speakprophetically of, of, of how we
have, uh, often treated theso-called other, uh, the other
race, uh, the other sexualorientation, for instance, and,
(21:36):
um, have, um, allowed that sortof lack of perception of
sacredness at the heart of theother, to, um, to justify, uh,
uh, and ignoring of, or amistreatment or an exploitation
of the so-called other,
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Um, John Phillips.
I wanted to also ask just interms of the whole, this moment
in history, obviously comingthrough the last, uh, 16 months
of this global health pandemic,that your book sacred earth
sacred soul is, is dropping atthis time in our history.
Uh what's what sort of droveyou, or inspired you to write
(22:17):
this right now and for it tocome out at such a formative
time, uh, not just in the UnitedStates where we are, or where
you are in Scotland, but just asa global call, a cosmic sort of
vision that in some ways youreclaim through these Celtic
lenses, these Celtic figures, uh, what inspired you to write the
(22:40):
book?
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Yeah, the, um, the sort of synchronicity of, of the
book coming out at, at thismoment in time is really
wonderful.
Um, I believe, um, I, I can't infact take, take credit for that
really.
I mean, I was, I was workingaway on these themes before we
entered the pandemic and, uh,the pandemic in, in many ways
(23:05):
has, has allowed me more timethan I might've otherwise had
to, to, um, finish the book toPolish it, I think to deepen
that, to, um, uh, work closelywith an editor from Harper, one
making learn by name who, um,who is, uh, is a challenging
(23:28):
editor.
And, um, and I think he made ita much better book, uh, through
the wrestling that just that weoften had.
Um, I think that, um, one of thethings that has always been
important to me in my, in mylife as a teacher and writer, is
(23:49):
that these two aspects of, ofwhat I focus on teaching and
writing have never been held inseparate compartments.
I, um, uh, uh, I love to teachand, uh, and I have been missing
the sort of physical gathering,uh, aspect of teaching.
(24:11):
I, I really love to be able tosee that the light in people's
eyes as, uh, connections aremade.
And, and I think it's alsoimportant to note when, when
people's eyes glaze over and Iknow the time, you know, I need
to go back to the drawing board,I need to sharpen the top.
Um, so, um, the, the teachingcontext has, has always been the
(24:37):
primary context within, whichare out of which I write.
So, um, although I sometimesfantasize thinking, wouldn't it
been lovely to be talked towhere I'm at Highland cottage
and never have to get on a planagain, and, um, and just spend
my life writing.
The reality is I've never beenthe combination that, that is
(25:00):
important to me.
So, um, I, I think that the,the, the particular
synchronicity of it coming outnow just feels like sort of
pure, pure grace.
To me, it feels like there'sbeen a, um, a hand in this that
is, that does not just my, myhand.
(25:21):
And I believe that, um, deeply,uh, about life and our, our
journey, but I'm, I'm verythankful that it's coming out
now.
And I think that there's, um, itdepends, DEMEC has been a time
of, um, a new awakening, new, uh, attentiveness, uh, to our
(25:42):
relationship with the earth andone another.
Uh, there's been a growingawareness, uh, certainly from
biodiversity scientists that,that this is a pandemic in the
sense of our creating it, it is,um, we have, uh, created, um, a
type of disturbance or type of,um, uh, unwellness madness, uh,
(26:05):
within the, the, the, the worldof, um, of, um, uh, infection or
viruses leaping from species tospecies.
Um, so I think a book thataddresses and calls for, for a
recovery or waking up again tothe safe, with most of the earth
(26:27):
in one another, um, is, iscoming, coming at a very
important moment.
Um, and, um, I think that the,uh, it, all of us, I think can
in our work, um, are primarilyjust called to, to keep sort of
plodding on with, with theinsights the gifts were given.
(26:52):
And, uh, and, and the sense ofoffer those over to, to, uh, the
bigger perspective of ourinterrelatedness and, and the
weaving together of our livesand our vision, uh, through the
work of the spirit.
Um, so I'm, I'm feeling gratefulthat it's coming after this
(27:12):
moment in time.
I think earlier, I, I was maybebecoming impatient, you know,
why, why are we not getting thisbook out earlier?
But I see now that it's, uh,it's a wonderful timing.
Yes.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
T timing with a capital T as sometimes say when
that sort of synchronicityhappens.
Um, I'm, I'm so curious, ofcourse, I'm a pastor, so I have
a little bit of a differentangle of vision on, uh, what I
think, uh, you're offeringthrough the book.
Um, John Philip, and, uh, justcurious about what you might
say, because you, you, you sayin the book, what is unique
(27:48):
about the Celtic tradition, uh,compared to most other Western
traditions, is that it cannot bereduced to a set of doctrines or
beliefs.
And, uh, we've already talked alittle bit about, uh, Pelagius
in, in the doctrine of originalsin, and I love, uh, you know,
what he, what he says.
(28:08):
And I think you mentionedactually Christ of the Celts
that he had taught that when welook into the face of a newborn
child, we're looking into theface of God, freshly, born among
us.
And that's been so beautiful tome as, as a father, certainly.
Uh, and one of the earliesttheological questions ever asked
my daughter, I think she wasfour.
(28:30):
I said, what does God look like?
And she said a baby.
And, uh, I think I was readingyour book about that same time.
I, I just wonder what you mightsay about just the wisdom of the
Celtic tradition for here andnow, because one of the, one of
the, um, uh, passions of mineand, and our church with our
(28:52):
local partners here in Bouldercalled out Boulder and together
homes, a lot of the LGBTQ pluscommunity, uh, especially youth
where we look at those numbersand it's, so, uh, it, it is so
devastating to know that, youknow, for whom, uh, LGBTQ youth,
if religion is important tothem, there is a 40% greater
(29:15):
chance of them taking their ownlives.
Um, what, what would you say interms of the wisdom of the
Celtic stream?
Plagiarists certainly your bookabout the sacredness of all life
and how that might relate to theLGBTQ, um, community today?
I
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Think, I think one of the things that I've, um, most
appreciated and tried to try tohonor and continue in my own
life from teachings from, fromthe Celtic stream is, um, is
there the realization that thoseof us who have a teaching role
(29:55):
or an articulating role, uh, ourprimary role I believe, is to
try to give voice to what isalready deeply within the other.
Um, and I, I think that the, um,so our, our role is sort of, um,
is an awakening of, of oneanother, uh, an awakening of, um
(30:20):
, uh, uh, knowing of thatsacredness of the earth.
The knowing of the sacredness ofthe other that I believe is deep
within us and how, how can weset that free in the, in the way
we speak and the way we teachand the way we live and relate.
Um, so, uh, that's quitedifferent from, uh, a more, um,
(30:43):
uh, pronounced doctrinalapproach in which we've often,
um, as a Christian tradition,given the world, the impression
that that truth is sort ofdispensing about.
Um, and, and that this truthwill probably be in the sense as
opposed to what is deepest inthe listener.
(31:06):
Um, and, uh, so I, I found it soliberating, uh, to, to, to know
that my role, um, my particularlittle role is, is to, in, in my
own way, give, try to givearticulation to give them.
(31:29):
And, um, and I think that wasone of the sort of sensibilities
of younger generation.
And I see it so clearly, uh, inmy, in my own children, uh, they
have, they have, um, has some,some that I sort of powerful
natural sensibilities around thesacredness of the earth and the
(31:53):
sacredness of, of one another,where wherever one falls on the,
on the sexual, uh, orientation,um, uh, identification, spectrum
, uh, and, and, uh, they are notseeing one another early in
(32:13):
terms of any category error, anyidentification, they are much
more alert to, uh, the, thequality of spirit and the love
that they, that they discern inthe lives and relationships of
their peers.
(32:34):
And, um, I think, I think thatthey, and, and that's as true, I
think, in relation to thesacredness of the earth as well.
I think so many of us in, in mygeneration and perhaps in our
generation generations have hadto learn, uh, or have had to
(32:55):
wake up in a new way to thesacredness of the earth, because
so much of our sort of cultural,religious education, uh,
training, neglect, neglectedthat, that deep knowing.
Whereas I think many in, in, um,the younger generation have
(33:16):
quite naturally perceived andbeen in touch with what, in the
book I call, um, a deeperknowing that we can release in
one another.
And that is the sacredness ofthe other, uh, wherever they
fall on spectrums of sexualorientation or spectrums of race
(33:38):
or spectrum of religious[inaudible].
Speaker 5 (34:06):
If you want to know
Speaker 3 (34:07):
And learn more about John Philip Newell, go to earth
and soul.org earth and soul.organd attend the virtual book
launch of sacred earth, sacredsoul on July 10th.
Thank you, John Philip Newell.
And thank you everybody forlistening to hyphenated life.
This is the finale of seasontwo.
(34:28):
We will see you back in the fallfor season three, blessings,
peace, love joy, harmony, to allof you from us to you and go to
hyphenated life.org.
If you want to reach out andconnect with us, we would love
to hear from you, and you canfind us on Facebook and
Instagram hyphenated life.
So you said
Speaker 5 (35:19):
[inaudible].
It reminds me of a wonderful week that we have in
the high desert of New Mexico.
A number of years ago, when Iwas teaching with my rabbi
brother from Santa Fe, nothomework lab, we did the whole
week on, on marsh and goobers.
Uh, I thou and, um, and the, uh,you know, the, the hyphen
(00:21):
between I am now is, um, I mean,we increasingly came to see that
that is, uh, that's the veryessence of relationship it's in
that sort of high thumb, uh,connection between the heart of
my being and the heart fear ofbeing, or the heart of me and
the harsh purple thing aroundband.
(00:42):
So we were celebrating thehyphen.
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
We often say as a sort of catch phrase, you know,
trying to live life in thehyphen, um, to not get caught in
the false dualities and thepolarization of our world.
And, you know, it's, it's sayingthe same thing that you are
saying in your book, you know,that, uh, we need to recognize
the sacred in everything in theplanet and each other and
ourselves.
And the more we try to separatethose worlds and pretend like it
(01:11):
doesn't exist in some places.
And it does, and others, thefurther the divide culturally,
you know, it just it's it.
Yeah.
So we seek to delve into theblurred lines between sacred and
secular conceptually.
We could not be more thrilled,excited, um, humbled, grateful
(01:33):
to be joined by John PhilipNewell, the great Celtic
spirituality, um, theologian.
I mean,
Speaker 3 (01:41):
He's been such an inspiration.
I, I call him all, he's anauthor, he's a teacher, he's a
mystic, a revolutionary, I wouldsay a Sage.
He is somebody who really hashelped bring Celtic,
Christianity and Celticspirituality.
This sidestream of the Christiantradition, uh, into popular
consciousness.
And, uh, we're so, so delighted.
(02:03):
He's been so inspiring to me,uh, to have a chance to talk to
him today is a complete, uh,dream and delight.
And, uh, so if you don't knowwho John Philip Newell is,
you'll get to know a little bitmore about him today.
We're talking about his newbook, sacred earth, sacred soul
that just released two days ago,uh, through Harper, one
(02:24):
publishing and a wonderful bookthat is in some ways, probably a
culmination of a lot of his workover the last many years, um, as
a teacher and an author, but,uh, delighted to welcome John
Philip Newell a, you know, letus know we can call him JP,
which is pretty cool.
Yeah, that is, um, well, I,
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I, um, I was concerned that if she called me,
John, I wouldn't know who youwere speaking to.
Yeah.
I, I, my family and friends havealways, uh, I've never used John
.
Um, so, um, that was thedecision of my mother 68 years,
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Welcome to hyphenated life.
We invite you to join us on thisjourney to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
become more fully alive.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Hello friends, welcome to another episode of
hyphenated life.
We are delighted today towelcome John Philip Newell, uh,
to hyphenated life, thiswonderful conversation, a Celtic
teacher and author ofspirituality who calls the
modern world to reawaken to thesacredness of the earth and
(03:59):
every human being.
For those of you who might befamiliar with John Phillip
Newell's work, um, he's Canadianby birth, a citizen also of
Scotland.
And he resides with his familyin Edinburgh and works on both
sides of the Atlantic.
In 2016.
He began the school of earth andsoul originally called the
(04:20):
school of Celtic consciousnessand teaches regularly in the
United States and Canada, aswell as leading international
pilgrimage weeks on thewonderful isle of Iona and the
Western Isles of Scotland.
His PhD is from the universityof Edinburgh, and he has
authored over 15 books,including a new ancient harmony
(04:41):
sounds of the eternal, therebirthing of God and his now
book that, uh, as we'rerecording this, we'll be in
releasing this two days ago, areleases sacred earth, sacred
soul, John Philip Newell, whatan absolute delight to welcome
you to hyphenated life today.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Thank you, Andrew and David.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Well, um, so there's so much to talk about.
And, um, we were talking beforea little bit about how here at
pine street church in Boulder,Colorado, we record this podcast
in the basement of our church.
Uh, and, uh, you know, one ofthe things that I just want to
say upfront is I am hugelyinfluenced by John Philip Newell
(05:29):
in ways that I know.
And in some ways that I don'tknow, um, but Celtic,
spirituality has been deeplyformative for me over the last
decade or so.
And it began, um, on apilgrimage to Iona in the summer
of 2012.
And, um, uh, I do havepermission to call John Philip
Newell, JP, which makes me feellike, you know, I have sort of,
(05:52):
you know, a VIP access orsomething like that.
But, um, uh, so, uh, JPS workhas really influenced me and
Christ of the Celts.
Uh, John Phillip was one of theearly books that I, that I read
that really formed my owntheology.
And as we were talking about thewhole premise of our podcast,
(06:14):
uh, of the hyphenated life, whatdoes that mean?
Uh, we were talking aboutIrenaeus.
Uh, the glory of God is a humanbeing fully alive.
Um, and then, uh, Mary, uh,Madeline linguals a wonderful
line, there is nothing sosecular that it cannot be
sacred.
And so today to talk about yournew book sacred, a sacred soul
(06:37):
sacred earth is, is, uh, a hugemoment for us.
So thank you.
So I, I wanted to, uh, just sortof talk a little bit, you, you
say kind of right away, um, inthe introduction of the book, uh
, sacred earth, sacred soul,that you have nine sort of
figures from a CelticChristianity.
(06:58):
That really is really theoutline of the book.
I was just kind of curious tostart, um, very simply, uh, how
did you pick these nine figures?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Um, I think I went there much with, uh, figures who
have been, you know, may havespoken to my heart and my mind.
And, um, Paul was something of achronological line through the
centuries.
I think one of, one of thereasons why I'm always very keen
(07:30):
to point to, uh, a succession ofhistorical figures over the
centuries is that I think thatone of the rich features of this
tradition that we often refer toit as Celtic spirituality, it
has, um, uh, a rich sort ofancestry.
It, it, um, has, um, folded anddeveloped over many centuries.
(07:55):
Uh, so this is not a way ofseeing that just sort of popped
out to the blue now.
Um, but it has a deep lineage.
And, um, I mean, I couldn't failto start really, I think, with,
with Pelagius and in chapter one, um, he, he is perhaps the most
(08:16):
sort of seminal figure in, inthis tradition.
I think that he signals, uh, thethemes around sacredness of the
earth and sacred most of thehuman soul that, uh, every other
great teacher in this streampicks up on.
And then, you know, I go rightthrough to finishing with a
(08:38):
contemporary of mine of ours,Kenneth White poet, and, uh, one
of the, um, attractions for meand Kenneth, I mean, his, his
poetry so powerfully expressessome of the insights and
celebrations of sacredness ofbirth, sacredness of soul.
(09:02):
Um, but also one of the things Ilike about Kenneth Wyatt is, is
that he's not a tidy sort ofsoon up thinker.
And I think in many ways he is agood reflection of where many of
us are at this moment in time.
Uh, we're, we're still on ajourney and we're following our
(09:24):
conviction of sacredness withthe earth sacredness of the
human soul.
And, uh, we're, we're placing aconfidence in, in, uh, that
instinct for the sacredness atthe heart of all things, but we
don't know exactly how it'sgoing to play out.
Um, you know, collectively interms of our communities in
(09:46):
terms of our individual lives,in terms of the journey that
we're on, um, as an earthcommunity at this critical
moment in time.
So there's something very,open-ended about, um, Kenneth
White's vision that I wanted to,to end with, to, in the sense,
invite the reader into thatcontinuing unfolding journey.
(10:07):
This isn't a fixed up, um,highly defined tradition.
Um, it is trying to stay true toessential vision and realizing
that the thing that is living isforever changing unfolding
Speaker 3 (10:22):
You begin with uh plagiarists.
And, um, even when I read Christto the Celts, um, I was so
struck by that.
It's like, where's this heritagebeen all of my life.
And, and we've talked a lot even, uh, here in our community pine
street, church, Boulder, we'vetalked a lot about, you know,
the, the, the doctrine oforiginal sin, but where was the
(10:45):
doctrine of original blessing?
And, um, I love how you haveused him to, you know, help
reclaim and in a different way,sort of that side stream of
Christianity through the Celticworld.
And I love how you began withhim.
And I wonder if you might say alittle bit, I know you've talked
some about how the fourthcentury was so formative in
(11:08):
Christianity, not, not for the,not for the good necessarily,
but what would you say aboutplagiarists in terms of what we
could have the chance to reclaimfor a kind of contemporary
Christian spirituality today?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yes, the, uh, the fourth century was, was, uh, an
enormously critical moment inthe unfolding of, uh, Western
Christianity, uh, you know, uh,a church that had sort of one
day, and this had beenpersecuted by the mighty Roman
(11:45):
empire, uh, and the next dayalmost, uh, became the, the
religion of empire.
Um, so, uh, it's, I find itimportant to sort of get into
the, the mindset of what must'vebeen happening in the F in the
fourth century.
Um, uh, an enormous relief ofcourse, to be, uh, freed from
(12:09):
the threat of persecution.
Uh, but the freedom frompersecution came, came at
tremendous costs so that the,um, we, we know the phrase, an
inconvenient truth, and, um, theempire didn't want him to
convenient truths.
They wanted essentially to beable to continue as they had
(12:33):
had, had lived and treated theearth and treated other nations.
Uh, so some of the sort ofradical, um, vision that I
believe is at the heart of thecrash vision about sacredness of
the earth, sacredness of everyhuman being there for how we
handle the earth, how we viewand relate to one another, uh,
(12:58):
is, is radically challenged.
If, if we, if our starting pointis that every creature and the
matter of the earth and everyhuman being, um, are sacred.
So, um, Pelagius is, um, is awonderful figure.
I mean, I've been, I've beenthinking for many years, he, uh,
(13:18):
pretty exciting, uh, film couldbe made of pledges life.
This, this teacher who's, whoreally stands up against the
might of empire and, um, and themight of the Imperial church and
, um, and proclaims that rightat the heart of the gospel is
(13:40):
this celebration of thesacredness of every human being
and up the earth.
Uh, and we've been under theshadow of so much of, of what
began to happen in the fourthcentury when Christianity became
religion of empire.
And so many of our creedalstatements, uh, that still
(14:02):
formed the sort of center andstructure of so much Western
theology that all was formulatedin the fourth century and still
dominates a lot of WesternChristian perspective, uh,
whether in the Roman Catholictradition or in the Protestant
(14:22):
and reformed traditions.
So, uh, Pelagius is, is a voice.
And I, and one of my feelingsabout all of these historical
figures that I I draw on is that, uh, is that we need, we need
their voices again.
And that often when, uh, when werecognize our need and look for,
(14:48):
uh, articulation of vision,these figures from the past, um,
come to life again within us andamong us.
And I think plagiarism is one ofthese figures that is to
addressing the, the yearnings ofour hearts for this moment in
time, in terms of how we viewone another the earth.
(15:12):
Um, so I, I, you know, as, asyou mentioned, Andrew, he, he is
perhaps the most misrepresentedteacher of all time.
And certainly those, those of uswho studied theology in
Edinburgh, um, generation aftergeneration of theological
student, was required to writean essay comparing polygynous
(15:35):
with Santa's costume of hip hop.
And it was known full well in,in advance who the hero should
be and who the villain was tobe.
And, um, we were told that, um,very little, uh, about pledges.
We were, we were told that therewere no writings available from
his hand.
Um, but what we now know is thatthere are many writings
(15:57):
available, uh, from, from hishand, uh, we were told the T
taught that we didn't need grace, um, is very clear from his
writings that he, he did believethat we needed grace, but by
grace, um, he did not see graceas, as an energy from God that
is opposed to our nature.
(16:19):
Um, but rather he saw the, the,um, the, the stowing of grace
from God as given to reconnectus with our nature, that would
become not something other thannatural, but truly natural.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
If they were to make a movie about palladium, who do
you think should play him?
I'm thinking, and it's probablyinfluenced by the Marcus or
really his character thatRussell Crowe played in the
gladiator.
I could see like a, a sort of ayin and yang brother twins,
secret twin brother of MarcusAurelius also played by Russell
Crowe to come in and, uh, youknow, similar time period
(16:59):
fighting the empire.
Uh, I would go see that movie.
I think
Speaker 3 (17:03):
I love your cinematic imagination, David that's
really?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, yeah.
I think I might tap it forwarddown to the Hopkins.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Wow.
Yes.
He just won an Oscar didn't he?
I believe
Speaker 1 (17:14):
He did.
Yeah.
And they, they might have to patthem out a bit.
The, um, at one of thecriticisms at director that
alleges was that he wasoverweight from, from having
eaten too much Scott's porridge.
I don't know.
(17:34):
I mean, a lot of what was saidabout him was, um, you know, we,
we need to sort of read betweenthe lines as to what w w w what
was the criticism really?
And, um, a lot of the criticismsof privileges, for instance,
(17:55):
refer to them, spending too muchtime with women.
Uh, and, um, and this is becausehe believed that women were to
be taught to read and tointerpret the scriptures.
And, uh, this, this, it was notjust, uh, an idiosyncrasy of, of
alleged.
Yes, this was something that wasvery typical of the Celtic
(18:18):
Christian world, um, uprisingand honoring of the place of the
feminine and a role ofleadership by, by women.
Um, so, uh, when Pelagiusarrives in Rome, in the fourth
century, uh, with Christianityalready in bed with empire, um,
(18:39):
one of the features of Imperialreligion was this tragic
subordination of women.
And, um, a lack of celebration,even a fear of the feminine
Speaker 2 (18:52):
You talk about, um, in your looking back to these,
these figures in the history ofCeltic spirituality, how we're,
we're not looking back to themto save us now, but as
referenced to help reorient us.
And that the stories that welearned from them are playing
out still.
Um, and this idea, you know,this divergence in the fourth
(19:13):
century where one sort ofnarrative became dominant and
the other fell into obscurity,um, you think of marginalization
of people.
Um, you had a beautiful, uh,anecdote in your book about you
were speaking to these, theseideas that you write about in
the book in a, I believe it wasa Mohawk elder hat.
(19:33):
Was that one of your, one ofyour, um, speaker engagements
and, and spoke to youafterwards, that he wished that
the colonialists who came overto occupy north America, instead
of coming to look to, you know,take advantage of the land and
the people it's stead, if theycame to look for the light in
the spirit and soul of thenative peoples, how their story
(19:56):
might be different.
Um, I don't know if you canspeak to that a little bit about
today in, in, in historically,and today, specifically how
marginalization comes to bebecause of not paying attention
to all these things that you'veyou are writing about.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yes.
Uh, that was, um, for me, uh, apowerful moment to, to hear the
Mohawk elder speak so powerfully, um, and, and to offer such a
critique of, uh, um, Europeanexpansionism, but also what the
(20:33):
arm of the church and thatImperial expansionism
represented.
Um, and, uh, his words speakvery powerfully and alternate to
the historical, um, sacrilegeof, of nature traditions, and
(20:54):
failing to see, and to look forthe light at the heart of every
people at the heart of everytradition.
But I think his words, uh, speakprophetically to, to this moment
in time, uh, not only in termsof our failure to recognize the
sacredness of the earth and theeffort to handle the body of the
(21:15):
earth and the resources of theearth with reverence and with
care and with equity.
Um, but, uh, they speakprophetically of, of, of how we
have, uh, often treated theso-called other, uh, the other
race, uh, the other sexualorientation, for instance, and,
(21:36):
um, have, um, allowed that sortof lack of perception of
sacredness at the heart of theother, to, um, to justify, uh,
uh, and ignoring of, or amistreatment or an exploitation
of the so-called other,
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Um, John Phillips.
I wanted to also ask just interms of the whole, this moment
in history, obviously comingthrough the last, uh, 16 months
of this global health pandemic,that your book sacred earth
sacred soul is, is dropping atthis time in our history.
Uh what's what sort of droveyou, or inspired you to write
(22:17):
this right now and for it tocome out at such a formative
time, uh, not just in the UnitedStates where we are, or where
you are in Scotland, but just asa global call, a cosmic sort of
vision that in some ways youreclaim through these Celtic
lenses, these Celtic figures, uh, what inspired you to write the
(22:40):
book?
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Yeah, the, um, the sort of synchronicity of, of the
book coming out at, at thismoment in time is really
wonderful.
Um, I believe, um, I, I can't infact take, take credit for that
really.
I mean, I was, I was workingaway on these themes before we
entered the pandemic and, uh,the pandemic in, in many ways
(23:05):
has, has allowed me more timethan I might've otherwise had
to, to, um, finish the book toPolish it, I think to deepen
that, to, um, uh, work closelywith an editor from Harper, one
making learn by name who, um,who is, uh, is a challenging
(23:28):
editor.
And, um, and I think he made ita much better book, uh, through
the wrestling that just that weoften had.
Um, I think that, um, one of thethings that has always been
important to me in my, in mylife as a teacher and writer, is
(23:49):
that these two aspects of, ofwhat I focus on teaching and
writing have never been held inseparate compartments.
I, um, uh, uh, I love to teachand, uh, and I have been missing
the sort of physical gathering,uh, aspect of teaching.
(24:11):
I, I really love to be able tosee that the light in people's
eyes as, uh, connections aremade.
And, and I think it's alsoimportant to note when, when
people's eyes glaze over and Iknow the time, you know, I need
to go back to the drawing board,I need to sharpen the top.
Um, so, um, the, the teachingcontext has, has always been the
(24:37):
primary context within, whichare out of which I write.
So, um, although I sometimesfantasize thinking, wouldn't it
been lovely to be talked towhere I'm at Highland cottage
and never have to get on a planagain, and, um, and just spend
my life writing.
The reality is I've never beenthe combination that, that is
(25:00):
important to me.
So, um, I, I think that the,the, the particular
synchronicity of it coming outnow just feels like sort of
pure, pure grace.
To me, it feels like there'sbeen a, um, a hand in this that
is, that does not just my, myhand.
(25:21):
And I believe that, um, deeply,uh, about life and our, our
journey, but I'm, I'm verythankful that it's coming out
now.
And I think that there's, um, itdepends, DEMEC has been a time
of, um, a new awakening, new, uh, attentiveness, uh, to our
(25:42):
relationship with the earth andone another.
Uh, there's been a growingawareness, uh, certainly from
biodiversity scientists that,that this is a pandemic in the
sense of our creating it, it is,um, we have, uh, created, um, a
type of disturbance or type of,um, uh, unwellness madness, uh,
(26:05):
within the, the, the, the worldof, um, of, um, uh, infection or
viruses leaping from species tospecies.
Um, so I think a book thataddresses and calls for, for a
recovery or waking up again tothe safe, with most of the earth
(26:27):
in one another, um, is, iscoming, coming at a very
important moment.
Um, and, um, I think that the,uh, it, all of us, I think can
in our work, um, are primarilyjust called to, to keep sort of
plodding on with, with theinsights the gifts were given.
(26:52):
And, uh, and, and the sense ofoffer those over to, to, uh, the
bigger perspective of ourinterrelatedness and, and the
weaving together of our livesand our vision, uh, through the
work of the spirit.
Um, so I'm, I'm feeling gratefulthat it's coming after this
(27:12):
moment in time.
I think earlier, I, I was maybebecoming impatient, you know,
why, why are we not getting thisbook out earlier?
But I see now that it's, uh,it's a wonderful timing.
Yes.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
T timing with a capital T as sometimes say when
that sort of synchronicityhappens.
Um, I'm, I'm so curious, ofcourse, I'm a pastor, so I have
a little bit of a differentangle of vision on, uh, what I
think, uh, you're offeringthrough the book.
Um, John Philip, and, uh, justcurious about what you might
say, because you, you, you sayin the book, what is unique
(27:48):
about the Celtic tradition, uh,compared to most other Western
traditions, is that it cannot bereduced to a set of doctrines or
beliefs.
And, uh, we've already talked alittle bit about, uh, Pelagius
in, in the doctrine of originalsin, and I love, uh, you know,
what he, what he says.
(28:08):
And I think you mentionedactually Christ of the Celts
that he had taught that when welook into the face of a newborn
child, we're looking into theface of God, freshly, born among
us.
And that's been so beautiful tome as, as a father, certainly.
Uh, and one of the earliesttheological questions ever asked
my daughter, I think she wasfour.
(28:30):
I said, what does God look like?
And she said a baby.
And, uh, I think I was readingyour book about that same time.
I, I just wonder what you mightsay about just the wisdom of the
Celtic tradition for here andnow, because one of the, one of
the, um, uh, passions of mineand, and our church with our
(28:52):
local partners here in Bouldercalled out Boulder and together
homes, a lot of the LGBTQ pluscommunity, uh, especially youth
where we look at those numbersand it's, so, uh, it, it is so
devastating to know that, youknow, for whom, uh, LGBTQ youth,
if religion is important tothem, there is a 40% greater
(29:15):
chance of them taking their ownlives.
Um, what, what would you say interms of the wisdom of the
Celtic stream?
Plagiarists certainly your bookabout the sacredness of all life
and how that might relate to theLGBTQ, um, community today?
I
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Think, I think one of the things that I've, um, most
appreciated and tried to try tohonor and continue in my own
life from teachings from, fromthe Celtic stream is, um, is
there the realization that thoseof us who have a teaching role
(29:55):
or an articulating role, uh, ourprimary role I believe, is to
try to give voice to what isalready deeply within the other.
Um, and I, I think that the, um,so our, our role is sort of, um,
is an awakening of, of oneanother, uh, an awakening of, um
(30:20):
, uh, uh, knowing of thatsacredness of the earth.
The knowing of the sacredness ofthe other that I believe is deep
within us and how, how can weset that free in the, in the way
we speak and the way we teachand the way we live and relate.
Um, so, uh, that's quitedifferent from, uh, a more, um,
(30:43):
uh, pronounced doctrinalapproach in which we've often,
um, as a Christian tradition,given the world, the impression
that that truth is sort ofdispensing about.
Um, and, and that this truthwill probably be in the sense as
opposed to what is deepest inthe listener.
(31:06):
Um, and, uh, so I, I found it soliberating, uh, to, to, to know
that my role, um, my particularlittle role is, is to, in, in my
own way, give, try to givearticulation to give them.
(31:29):
And, um, and I think that wasone of the sort of sensibilities
of younger generation.
And I see it so clearly, uh, inmy, in my own children, uh, they
have, they have, um, has some,some that I sort of powerful
natural sensibilities around thesacredness of the earth and the
(31:53):
sacredness of, of one another,where wherever one falls on the,
on the sexual, uh, orientation,um, uh, identification, spectrum
, uh, and, and, uh, they are notseeing one another early in
(32:13):
terms of any category error, anyidentification, they are much
more alert to, uh, the, thequality of spirit and the love
that they, that they discern inthe lives and relationships of
their peers.
(32:34):
And, um, I think, I think thatthey, and, and that's as true, I
think, in relation to thesacredness of the earth as well.
I think so many of us in, in mygeneration and perhaps in our
generation generations have hadto learn, uh, or have had to
(32:55):
wake up in a new way to thesacredness of the earth, because
so much of our sort of cultural,religious education, uh,
training, neglect, neglectedthat, that deep knowing.
Whereas I think many in, in, um,the younger generation have
(33:16):
quite naturally perceived andbeen in touch with what, in the
book I call, um, a deeperknowing that we can release in
one another.
And that is the sacredness ofthe other, uh, wherever they
fall on spectrums of sexualorientation or spectrums of race
(33:38):
or spectrum of religious[inaudible].
Speaker 5 (34:06):
If you want to know
Speaker 3 (34:07):
And learn more about John Philip Newell, go to earth
and soul.org earth and soul.organd attend the virtual book
launch of sacred earth, sacredsoul on July 10th.
Thank you, John Philip Newell.
And thank you everybody forlistening to hyphenated life.
This is the finale of seasontwo.
(34:28):
We will see you back in the fallfor season three, blessings,
peace, love joy, harmony, to allof you from us to you and go to
hyphenated life.org.
If you want to reach out andconnect with us, we would love
to hear from you, and you canfind us on Facebook and
Instagram hyphenated life.
So you said
Speaker 5 (35:19):
[inaudible].
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