February 11, 2021 • 43 mins
Stephen Nix is a Grammy-nominated songwriter, producer, and vocal coach. He is Director of Music for Hillsboro Presbyterian Church in Nashville, TN. He shares his deeply personal, spiritual journey to discover his best and truest self through grief, music, education, and the gift of living a creative life. He reveals advice about how living authentically brings fulfillment that money and prestige and nothing else can buy.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everybody to season two of hyphenated life.
Thank you for joining us andthank you for following us on
all the obvious channels.
Facebook, Instagram.
I don't think we're on Twitteryet.
and@hyphenatedlife.org, you canalso find us through pine
street, church.net.
(00:22):
Hi, faded life podcasts can befound there as well.
And we're so thankful to ourchurch.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
So we really are excited to be back.
We have, uh, a lot of excitingguests lined up here for this
second season.
And, uh, the first of which is areally good, almost lifelong
friend of yours.
Andrew Wright, Steven nix, wholives in Nashville.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
That's right.
Steven Knicks is on the showtoday.
Uh, Stephen is a Grammynominated songwriter.
He's a producer, he's a vocalcoach.
He's a director of music for achurch in Nashville, uh, and
somebody who, um, kind ofadopted me as his little
brother, what I was in college.
Uh, and so just feel reallygrateful and lucky.
(01:06):
And, uh, to have him on theprogram today and talking about
his own personal journey and hisown kind of musical philosophy,
life philosophy, we kind ofcover a lot of ground today with
Steven.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, I'm excited.
I've heard a lot about him as hehas been, you know, formational
in your life as a friend, as amentor or a colleague.
And, um, I, I hearing his story.
I find so much fascinatinglysimilar to my upbringing.
My story as a musician, youknow, will I'm sure be able to
relate on that level.
(01:38):
Um, and he he's, he said he waslike a surrogate older brother,
and now he's like a surrogateuncle to your kids.
That's how close you are.
And it's so cool to get, to havehim on this podcast today to
kick off season two ofhyphenated life.
I am so excited about this.
Um, tell me a little bit aboutyou guys met at Belmont.
(02:03):
This is not the first guestwe've had.
That's has a connection to youand Belmont university, but
that's a great, a great school,um, a great music program and he
was floating around there andyou floated in and how did you
guys connect?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So he'll talk about this on the episode today, but
we actually met at a mega churchin Nashville.
That was my church in college.
Uh, he was the director ofworship there and doing, uh,
compositions for, for thischurch.
And I was looking for someone,uh, to, to give me vocal lessons
because when I started atBelmont, I was a music major and
(02:38):
then figured out I was goingfail freshmen, piano, and
transferred to the businessdepartment as soon as possible.
And then found my way toreligion is such a, such a weird
and eclectic journey.
Uh, but that's how we met wasthrough the mega church in
Nashville.
And then Steven and I startedwriting music together for, for
that church.
Uh, and so, yeah, that was, thatwas a fun beginning to my
(03:01):
college journey, but meetingSteven and we'll talk, we didn't
quite get into this today, but,uh, letters to a young poet, I
swear to goodness, uh, that wasa formational foundational book
that Steven introduced me toRainer Roco, this beautiful
German poet.
Uh, that's been a big part of myown personal spiritual journey,
(03:22):
but reading that book letters toa young poet completely changed
my life and the way I saw God,the way I saw myself, uh, the
way I saw how I grew up andwhere I was going.
So anybody out there who's notread letters to a young poet.
You got to read that book byRainer Rilke, R I L K E anyway.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So I haven't read that.
So I guess you're speaking to meas much as any of our listeners
who haven't haven't read it.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I was hoping you'd pick up on that.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Just kidding.
Yeah, for sure.
It's a, it's an awesome book.
Welcome to hyphenated life.
We invite you to join us on thisjourney to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
(04:17):
become more fully alive.
Welcome to
Speaker 1 (04:35):
He's to episode one of hyphenated life.
Thank you for joining us,everybody.
And today we have the great goodfortune of launching season two
with Stephen Knicks.
Stephen Nicks is a Grammynominated producer for blues
songwriter and recording of theyear.
He is a pianist and musicaldirector for multiple Christian
(04:58):
country and blues artists.
Stephen currently serves asdirector of music at
Hillsborough Presbyterian churchin Nashville, Tennessee, where
they celebrate the diversity ofmusical styles in worship.
A little bit more about StephenStephen's basic belief for
making music is to have fun, tobe inspired and to be creative.
(05:20):
He holds degrees in piano, voicechoral conducting music,
pedagogy pedagogy.
I'm not sure and arranging fromthe university of South Alabama
and Louisiana state universityLSU go tigers.
I guess he was born in mobile,Alabama on a farm, not too far
(05:40):
from the Gulf of Mexico.
Well, Steven has traveled theworld as a pianist, as a music
director for numerous, numerousprofessional artists and all
sorts of genres.
Uh, he was also creativedirector for Nashville and
Hollywood based music publishingcompanies, and currently spends
lot of time.
Well, at least a little bit oftime as a guest clinician and
(06:00):
vocal coach, Stephen has writtenseveral hundred songs which have
been recorded in sung throughoutthe world.
And what I love, uh, perhapsmost about this fine young man
from Nashville as that he loveshis passion is helping others
become the best musicians andsingers.
They can be through what hedescribes as the universal
(06:22):
language of music to build faithand community Steven Knicks.
Thank you for joining us onhyphenated life today.
What a pleasure.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Thank you.
Wow.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
He didn't know half of that stuff about yourself.
Did you at least forgotten aboutit?
Well, uh, I guess, I don't know.
We can start with this.
I mean, full disclosure, uh,Stephen Knicks is one of my best
friends in life and, uh, he issomebody I've admired since I
(06:59):
was 19 years old.
And it's so interesting since Ijust turned 33.
Everyone knows that's not true.
We've known each other for God,25 years or so by now.
And, uh, he is somebody I admireand respect and, you know,
sometimes we get into ourprofessional worlds and our
(07:21):
personal stories, you know, not,not by intention per se, but get
lost in the mix of what we'redoing professionally, because
one of the things that mostpeople ask, uh, about who we are
is, well, what do you do, right?
It's like, what do you do inlife?
But I think to start today,Steven, uh, I, I would love for
(07:42):
our audience to hear a littlebit about your own personal
story and how you began and yourown evolution, theologically and
personally, and relationally.
And so I'd love to start withthat.
And so you grew up on a farm inthe deep South.
What was that like?
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Uh, well, I always say when you're in the deep
South and you grow up on a farm,uh, it's chores and church,
that's pretty much all it is andschool.
And so basically that was yourentire community was going to
church during your chores andgoing to school.
And that's the way you lived.
Your life was quite simple.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
So what was church like for you growing up?
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Well, I was raised very strict what they call
Pentecostal holiness, which wasthe belief that like we couldn't
have TVs, we couldn't wearshorts.
Women had to wear dresses, womencouldn't cut their hair.
Men had to keep their hairshort.
So I was, I was raised in a verystrict religious background.
(08:47):
Um, but you know, that's what itwas, it was normal.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So you've talked a little bit and, and some more
full disclosure.
Steven was recently featured onpride forward, which is a
storytelling project with theUSA today network.
And, uh, we can link to that onour hyphenated life page as
well.
But one of the things that stoodout to me too, is you talking
about your own development interms of coming to terms, you
(09:17):
know, and, and, and a gradualdawning about your, your fullest
self, your truest self, and whoyou were, uh, as a child growing
up musically, uh, and then, uh,who you wanted to be and how
that, that came to be.
And I know that, uh, there'ssome personal moments and
milestones in your own growingup story.
(09:39):
Uh, maybe begin a little bitmusically speaking, how music
came to be part of your own, uh,your own soulful medicine or
soul medicine, if you will.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Well, for one thing, my family are very well known in
the music in the gospel musicworld.
And so music was pretty much thestaple of our existence.
Uh, my dad threatened me atfour.
If I didn't sing, he was goingto, I was going to be in
trouble.
So I was a shy kid and Iimmediately learned to sing.
(10:10):
As a matter of fact, it was thisweek.
I, uh, the lady that taught mehow to sing harmonies.
She says, she remembers me whenshe was, I was like five.
And then I just learned theharmonies very quickly and she
never had to teach me again.
So, but music was just, it was,it was the only expression we
had outside of, um, church andschool and farm life.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
And you had, I mean, I would describe it as a lot of
adultness in your childhood.
Could you talk a little bitabout what that looked like in
your world growing up, uh, a lotof adultness as, as a kid and a
lot of responsibility that youaccepted and adopted early on?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Well, I, I like to call myself the crazy accident
in my family.
I was the surprise kid, the, uh,uh, parents who are
substantially older than normal.
My mother was like 45 when I wasborn and my dad was in his
fifties or early fifties.
So that was kind of a surprisekid.
(11:12):
So when I came along, uh, theyhad already had two other
children.
I'll send me.
Um, but, um, I had a lot ofresponsibilities, but at 15, my
mother passed away suddenly, andmy siblings had already left
home and I was left to sort ofsustain the household and
(11:36):
literally took what, uh, incomemy mother left me through social
security and paid the housenotes.
And I kept myself alive at 15,no health because my dad, he
just suffered from extensivegrief, uh, because of the loss
that he sort of could notfunction.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
So you took up sort of a, in some sense, a
matriarchal and a patriarchalrole in your own family growing
up and fast forwarding.
Just a little bit.
You also graduated high schoolawfully early in, started your
college journey awfully early.
Right.
Could you talk a little bitabout that as well?
Speaker 4 (12:15):
It was the same year that my mother died at 15, that,
uh, I graduated from highschool.
Um, I was valedictorian in myclass and, um, I'll never forget
doing the speech and just barelygetting through the speech for
the tiers, you know, losing yourmother.
And I received scholarships to,uh, so university of South
(12:39):
Alabama, and I immediately tookthem.
It was a way out of the farm, atleast something different
because I desperately, I wantedto pursue something again.
I was just searching for who Iwas going to be.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Right.
And, and where, I mean, if youcould think a little bit about,
you know, you've described thePentecostal holiness tradition,
were you also thinking about howam I different theologically at
that point, or are you kind ofdealing with so many other
things that you're just kind ofmanaging life, but I'm kind of
curious, like how did that alsojumpstart your own theological
(13:17):
evolution through, you know,being raised in that kind of
strict conservative traditionand here you are with the world
opening up to you.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
I recall that just the, uh, sociological shock of
being a part of a secularinstitution, such as a
university state school, uh,that, that along was just
overwhelming to me.
And then to add to it, the factthat I was the youngest person
(13:51):
on the university campus, thatpoint, um, my peer group was
basically, they were all olderthan me, much older than me, you
know, two and three years older,which is a lot in that, you know
, when you're 15.
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So how are you, you know, when you think about
coming to your fullest self, thetruest version of yourself,
where were you in that processas well?
Because what I loved aboutlistening to your story, uh,
with the storytelling project ishow you were surrounded by so
much conservatism,theologically, and really coming
(14:27):
to terms with who Stephen reallywas through all of that, who
your truest self, your deepestsoul was.
Could you talk a little bitabout how all of that was
unfolding as well through thatprocess?
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Sure.
You know, the, the overarching,uh, reality to the story is I
think that God gently guides us,even when we don't, we're not
aware that that is happening.
Um, I basically shoved anythingthat had to do with relational,
sexual, anything.
I just shoved it down.
I just totally turned myselfinward focused to, uh, education
(15:04):
and making good grades andkeeping my scholarships.
And I really didn't even givemyself a choice even during
undergrad or grad school to eventhink about that.
Uh, and I think it was my, itwas a form of escapism for
myself to just survive.
Uh, you know, now that I lookback, that's what I was doing.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Right.
And so, so that theme ofadultness was kind of showing
up, you were just doing what youhad to do.
So what, what, what would, whatwould you say would be another
kind of milestone moment ofmoving toward, uh, coming into
your gifts, uh, you know, yourjourney to Nashville.
Uh, if you could talk about alittle bit of those, those pivot
(15:44):
points, what would you point to?
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Well, I, I th I think, you know, unlike most
people, I did have contacts herein Nashville being that there
were family here.
Uh, so I wasn't going into aplace that was totally strange
to me.
I at least knew some people, uh,but I had started teaching at
LSU some and just realized thatI was number one.
(16:09):
I was really young and I did notwant to be a part of, I wanted
to be in a creative world, notin so much the educational world
where you're stuck doing thesame courses every semester.
I wanted something morecreative.
And so I made my way toNashville, Tennessee just moved
here.
And the first night I was here,I walked into a big mega church
(16:34):
and I was hired first night, butit was only because my family
knew all the people and knew me.
So I know that sounds weird, butthat's really true.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I bet it was.
And that in that mega church, bythe way, is where, uh, you and I
met, uh, I was grin and Grennancoming to Belmont university in
Nashville, looking for voicelessons.
And, uh, that's, that's sort ofhow we met as well.
Uh, before I, when I startedwriting songs.
And before I wrote, before Istarted writing sermons, there
(17:10):
was a, there was a few years inbetween there.
Uh, it, Steve would was a bigpart of, of that journey for me,
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Stephen, thank you again for being with us today.
Uh, this is exciting.
I've heard a lot about you.
And, uh, one, one thing Idefinitely noticed, and I hear
some similarities for you is youcan, one can, can get, um, in
that boat of regimen andstructure and formality such as
comes with academia orprofessional environments, such
(17:38):
as working for a church as apaid church musician.
And while you can certainly haveyour own spirituality, your own
spiritual path, um, in manyways, it's really easy to muffle
that, to put dampeners on it sothat it kind of keeps within
those rigid structures and ithyphenated life.
That's one of the things we, we,we created this podcast was to
(18:01):
explore how, how can thosethings be those dualities be
eliminated, or how can thosestructures and spiritual
passions be combined and, andbecome symbiotic.
And I wonder if there's anyexperience you've had as you
moved along in your career andin your life where you found
some of those, those seeminglyopposed elements becoming,
(18:24):
starting to work together.
Um, if you have any experienceslike that, you'd want to share,
Speaker 4 (18:29):
I guess, you know, working in church work, you
learn to become a conduit forthe talent of others, and you
learn to focus on other people.
It becomes a, if you're doing itcorrectly, you're going to
become a little, a lot selfless,not selfish.
And so it's very easy in thepattern of trying to help others
(18:51):
find their musical selves, findtheir musical excellence.
I encouraging them, focusingthem, directing them, teaching
them.
It's easy to kind of forgetabout yourself in which you
know, for me, I think now that Ilook back on it, it was a way of
coping with me not having todeal with, you know, who I
(19:14):
really was, but if I could focuson other people and other
people's talent, then I didn'thave to focus in on me.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah.
That's uh, that's beautiful.
I think, you know, you, you saidat one point you were, you had a
bit of an aversion towardspossibly teaching collegiately
at LSU we're teaching.
Um, but we find ourselves inthat role a lot anyways.
Um, and you know, that, that isone of the things about that,
(19:42):
that the, uh, markers of theimportance of self care, right?
If you are caring for others,but you're not well yourself
because you've neglectedyourself, then there's an
imbalance there, and you're notable to help them to your
fullest extent.
And therefore they don't get thebest version of you.
You're not experiencing the bestversion of yourself or oneself.
This is not you or menecessarily, but I think, uh,
(20:05):
you know, uh, relatableexperience.
So, um, I know for me, one thingthat I've found is, is giving
myself the opportunity to, tohave focus inwardly on, on what
it is that I'm doing for myself.
(20:26):
If I'm able to do that, I findthat I am able to help others in
a better way.
Um, and I wonder, you know, Ithink of, and you, as someone
who studied voice, uh, andchoral conducting at ACA ACA in
academia, uh, there's a lot offocus on some technical, you
(20:47):
know, if you've taught voiceversus coaching voice, this is
sort of two different concepts.
And one thing I think that makesvoice and singing unique is that
the instrument is internal andwe can do all the things in the
world to analyze a vocalspectrum of the sound wave of
what happens when you raise yoursoft palate or lower your jaw,
(21:08):
or, you know, have your tongueforward or up in the back and
all of the different things andhow to manipulate sound.
And okay, now go do that.
It's not like pressing a key onthe piano or a key on a brass
instrument or a finger on a fretboard.
It's a, you have to switch gearsinto what is actually, from my
(21:29):
perspective, it is like aspiritual outlook.
Do you have to give a metaphor?
You know, like do like you'reinhaling, you're, you're
smelling the fragrance of a Rosefor the first time.
That's how you get you theinsides of your body to do
things that isn't pressing abutton.
You know, that's one of thethings I love about singing,
about singing with others, abouthelping others is sing, whether
(21:51):
it's an, a voice lesson or a,you know, a coaching, which is
my preference a little more aswell, but, um, can you tell me
about how some of that is, isreally, um, helped or impacted
you in a spiritual kind of way?
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Well, uh, the minutia of being, uh, you know, my
master's degree in pedagogy, uh,it was focused on the science of
how things worked and which ittook you into this critical
thinking of how do, uh, how doesmy finger connect to the note?
How does my voice connect to thevowel sound?
(22:28):
Everything was science.
It wasn't some sort ofextemporaneous sort of like
accident, but there weretechniques and capabilities of
doing that.
And when you start developingthat thought process, you
immediately can turn yourself toyour spiritual world, and you
want to understand what thismeans and what it means to you
(22:51):
and where you are in that andwhat works and what doesn't
work.
And the connections of that.
I really think that music was agreat tool because I had no
mentor at no one to guide me,except I do.
I'm still an avid, and I don'tsay this to be spiritual, but I,
I believe in prayer and I didn'thave parents to lean on.
(23:16):
So, um, I would just praying ofGod.
I don't know.
I just don't know.
And there was not one momentwhere God didn't sort of
intervene in some way, you know,it may not have been the
ultimate answer, but it was agentle nudge in a direction I
needed to be.
That makes sense.
(23:40):
And I will never forget it.
And here's the epiphany thatreally just blew me.
I, when I came to Nashville, Iwas playing a lot for people,
their music director, and I wassort of playing the role of
keeping everybody corralled andon the same page and started
realizing that, uh, I would goin the studios and they would be
(24:01):
singing these songs and theyweren't really that good.
And I'm like, I can writesomething better.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
And so I started, I started writing songs and again,
I took my pedagogy and I startedanalyzing what's a good song
from another song.
Like for instance, I get, I gota request last last year for
billboard magazine to do anovercompensating of, of, you
know, the pop country world andwhy it affects people, you know?
(24:31):
And, uh, so you start doingthat.
Well, I started writing songsand these songs were being cut.
The songs were being recorded.
I mean, I had no intention ofthat.
And I remember the, I guess themost moving time was I said in a
congregation of a mega church,you're probably 3,500 to 4,000
(24:53):
people there.
And they had multiple serviceswith that number.
So you can imagine how manypeople were in attendance in one
service.
And they just kept doing thesame service.
So they were using the samemusic, but they sang two of my
songs.
Congregationally back to back.
I sat in the congregation and Inever felt so alone in my life.
(25:16):
I felt this sense of here.
Everyone knows everything.
I've shared this, but theyreally don't know who I am.
I've shared my talent, but Ihaven't cheered me.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's where from myfriendship with you, Steven,
well, it started out as I wasyour vote vocal, uh, student for
awhile.
Uh, and it's, it's, uh, somewhatmiraculous to me how our, our
friendship has grown over theyears.
But one of the things that Iwould hold up that I've, I've
(25:50):
watched you and seen you do overand over in your life is this
fine integration about your,your musical prowess.
The, uh, I'll be ironic and say,humble panache you have had
about your own artistry, butthere was always this kind of
(26:12):
binary thing going on, right?
This, this splitting that wenton, that you had to do for a
long time between what you didin the church, because you
couldn't be fully who you were,and then finding that
integration point.
And I've heard you talk aboutthis story where you left that
mega church on that Sunday, orwhenever it was, they were
playing your songs.
(26:32):
And you felt like you just said,you felt so alone.
And something happened though,when you left that service on
your way home, could you saywhat that was?
It's
Speaker 4 (26:44):
It's really?
And this is, this is wheremystical, Stephen jumps up.
And I do apologize, but youknow, it's been my salvation.
Well, I, you know, I got him acar and again, I go to praying
and I'm crying, just tears.
I could barely see, and I wascrying and I just ran out of the
(27:05):
church in the middle of theservice.
And I got in my car and said,God, I don't know what I'm
supposed to do.
I love you.
But I feel so alone.
I need, I need somewhere.
I need a home.
I need a community.
I need to feel like I am Stephen.
The person, not just Stephen,the musician or the director of
(27:27):
the piano player, whatever.
And I got in my car and wasdriving home.
And literally I looked up andthere was a sign in Bellmead,
you know, where MailMate is,don't you?
Anyway, there were signs aboutme, of this church and the
church service started laterthan normal service services.
It was like, I think 1130 orsomething.
(27:49):
So I said, I mean, I'd neverbeen to, it didn't know anything
about the church, but I said,I'm going to try this.
I'm going to just go to anotherchurch just to see what happened
I walk into.
And it's, uh, I walk into thechurch, it's a UCC church.
Uh, I walk in and sit in theback and all of a sudden I
(28:09):
realize I'm in the middle of alot of lesbian, gay,
transgender.
I am sitting right there, but Ihad no idea that that's what
that was.
Again, I feel like that wasGod's way of kind of quietly
pushing me to a place.
And when I entered there, youknow, they were singing.
(28:31):
So I was singing, they turnedaround because it was a small
place.
And so you could hear me, theywere like, you can sing.
And I said, yeah.
And so, anyway, it started out,uh, I met, I started meeting.
I met friends that that day, Imean, I met great friends that I
still have to this day.
And it was just a wildconnection.
(28:53):
All of a sudden I felt like Iwas a part of community and I
had suffered from depression,deep depression, because I was
for, for many years.
And that, I mean, my depressionjust left.
It was like an instantaneousit's gone.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
It's like everything you had pushed down or
suppressed, there was a releasesomehow with that, as you say,
mystical moment, thatserendipity, that made you stop
in at that church that day onyour way, on your way back from
loneliness to integration andcommunity.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Well, what was weird about that is that church I
ended up, they ended up beggingme to start a little choir and I
was a little bit hesitantbecause I was still traveling,
but I'm like, this'll be fun andwill be fun for everyone.
And I tend to, like, when I, Itend to like very soulful gospel
music, because I think itconnects with people in a
(29:51):
passionate way.
It's cathartic and being LGB,you know, being LGBTQ, there's a
lot of suppression and a lot ofhiding that goes on and to be
able to just let it all out, youknow, in song and in music.
And I started this choir andthis fledgling choir grew to be
(30:14):
a formidable, uh, gay andlesbian choir in the Southeast
gospel choir.
Well, I mean, we, I mean, wewent everywhere, but it was, it
was, again, it was that day ofme being obedient to my own
feelings of loneliness and justfollowing a path, because I knew
(30:34):
that something, I neededsomething more,
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Your powers of intuition that, that led you to
that.
Right.
I mean, you didn't have, likeyou said, you didn't have a
mentor, you didn't have a guideper se, telling you whispering
over your shoulder.
Here's where you go and what youdo or leading you down that
road.
It was a journey of discoverypretty much that you made by
yourself.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Right.
Right.
And I think the, the reality ofthat was, uh, I met people of
genuine who had been on the samejourney I was on.
And it was, it was a place ofsolace.
It was safety.
It was, I didn't feel like I wastelling, you know, I didn't feel
like I was like the guy with thehorns sticking out of his head.
(31:21):
I felt like I was a normal humanbeing.
Whereas I used to feel like, Oh,I'm a little bit different than
these people.
And it wasn't that I was better.
I just had a differentperspective.
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Well, you are, you've always been a sort of unicorn
Steven.
Right.
Don't sell yourself short.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Yeah.
You can be one thing and that'soriginal.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
That's all right.
Which you are well, yourecently, and we'll, we'll head
toward the finish here, but, uh,there are two or three quick
things I just want to say orask.
And the first thing I would, uh,observe is that you recently,
and you rarely do this because Iknow you're very humble.
You're a humble unicorn.
(32:02):
Uh, and, and you don't want totalk about yourself.
You don't wanna listen toyourself, but what I loved about
what you've done recently, uh, Ithink it was on your, your
personal Facebook page, but you,you extended a personal
challenge to people to findtheir creative spirit.
Um, could you talk a little bitabout that?
(32:24):
Number one, and then number two,for anybody listening to
hyphenated live with thisepisode, if they are, you know,
struggling with who they arecoming to grips with, what's my
truest self.
What advice might you give tosomeone feeling some of the fear
or confusion that you yourselffelt along your journey, uh, to
(32:46):
kind of coming to a place ofthat openness and integration,
that integration point thatyou've talked about today.
So could you respond kind ofbriefly to those two things?
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Well, regarding the creative nature and the creative
souls that we have, we're allcreative human beings.
Um, no matter how boring you maythink you are, there's something
you're creative with that mightbe cooking.
It might be sowing.
It might be writing a letter,but you are creative.
(33:17):
And, and I think sometimes wethink that to be our best
creative selves and to findourselves, we have to be the
best at it.
And that's not true.
You know, the thing that I, Itell people all the time and I
challenged them and I willperpetually challenge them.
So their di is don'tprocrastinate with your
(33:39):
creativity because you don'tthink you can do it.
You don't think you're capableof doing it, just do it.
And B be honest with yourselfand make moments for yourself.
Take time, make an appointmentwith yourself, whether it's
weekly, daily, or even monthly,you know, start small and you
(33:59):
get bigger, you know, and pickup the paintbrush, uh, sit down
with the instrument or play thatinstrument, sing that song,
write that song, write thatpoem, write that book, do
whatever you have to do, youknow, create whatever you have
to, because I think it's anecessary journey in our
spirituality to, uh, to liveauthentically.
(34:22):
And when a person is livingwithin their true, authentic
creative self, there is afulfillment that money prestige
and nothing can buy.
And that's something I know tobe true
Speaker 1 (34:37):
For anybody listening today, who is struggling with
who they are or trying to findtheir tribe, uh, that you, that
you obviously found through along journey.
What advice would you have forthem today?
Uh, those folks out therelistening who are struggling
with their own sexuality or whothey are and trying to find
their place, what would you sayto them today?
Speaker 4 (34:59):
Being honest with what you need is not being
selfish and it's not wrong.
And, you know, for some peopleit's a series of, they just have
to seek and seek and seek, but,uh, you know, there's scripture
seek and you will find, um, andI, I, I tell them, tell people
(35:20):
all of a sudden, just, justexperience things, go to places
where, you know, people are likeyou, and you can find some sort
of community because we alldesire community.
And that's innate in all of us,regardless of us being
introverts or extroverts, we alldesire community.
So just be honest with yourselfand go, I need this for me.
(35:44):
You're not being selfish, butyou're being, you're taking a
step towards your own fullness.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
And you found that in the church, you, you started off
, uh, at one point on thecompass and have landed in
another.
And one of the reallyinteresting things is again,
where a promise fell.
We're heading to a close, but,uh, one thing that, uh, I loved
recently, you know, RaphaelWarnock, who is only the, you
(36:13):
know, recently elected to theSenate from the great state of
Georgia, um, and only the 11thAfrican-American Senator, I
believe who's ever served inthis country.
Uh, he was quoted, he was askedhow his background as a pastor,
uh, informed his approach touniting people in the divided
time in which we live in ourcountry.
(36:36):
And he said, listen, if you'veever had to get folks who like
anthems and folks who likecontemporary gospel music to
work together, you can doanything.
And Steven, I think you saidsomething like I should run for
Senate too.
Right?
Uh,
Speaker 4 (36:54):
I'm running for Senate
Speaker 1 (36:56):
That's right.
So, so, so, so as we kind ofcome to a finish talking about
this sort of secular sacred, youknow what David and I have
talked about a lot here athyphenated life as a false
binary, a false dichotomy, uh,and thinking about how you have
found that community within thatstructure, that container within
(37:20):
the church, what is the power ofchurches today in their role,
in, in, in engendering, unityand creativity and blasting
these binaries blasting thesedualities about sacred and
secular, what would you say tothe church today?
Speaker 4 (37:39):
Well, I would say this, not to say this a lot of
times when I get to be sort oflike at a convention or speak in
regard to these, these, um,issues in the church that are
not modern issues, they've beenthrough decades, you know, it's
just becoming more apparent.
Um, and we're able tocommunicate more quickly
regarding them, but, uh, I thinkorganically being aware of your
(38:03):
congregants is a necessarything.
I see so many leaders that go inand they, they, they push their,
love, their musical taste ontothese other people.
When in fact they're consumingsomething totally different,
whether that's a secular tune,whether it's a, him from Amar,
from Luther, whatever, butknowing your congregants and
(38:28):
giving them a chance or givingthem a place where the music and
for me, you know, my creativityis music, giving them a place
where that's something thatinspires them, but you have to
be very diverse at that.
Very aware of the people you'rearound, not every, not every
(38:50):
conquer gets going, like thesame thing.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
I, I hear through your story, a lot of, um, sort
of noticing of, um, you know,roles and characters that
defined who you were, um,whether it's teacher, whether
it's composer, whether it'sperformer, whether it's
caretaker.
(39:13):
Um, and I hear the transition,you know, it wasn't overnight
that move from Nashville backdown towards your home.
You know, maybe that was point aand point B, but it was a
lifetime to get all the waythrough that.
But it seems like there wasalmost an epiphany moment.
And I wonder how those roleschanged for you and how you
(39:37):
identified with them from thatmove from Nashville, where as a
composer, you looked up andheard 6,000 people happily
singing your song and never feltmore alone to, you know, roughly
24 hours later.
Not that they were singing yoursong, but you never felt more
engaged and together and movingfrom there.
(39:59):
How, how did, how did thoseroles that you still embrace in
and, and live in today?
How did they change in, in, are,are they more part of you now?
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Well, uh, you know, I , I think, you know, with, with
living now that I'm over 21, nowthat I'm now with, with living,
I think you start when you firstencounter, like the role of a
composer, the role of all ofthem are separate entities
(40:33):
within themselves, but they'reuniquely worked together.
And, um, they all sort of formwho you are.
You know, I'm, I'm a part pianoguy.
I'm a part rider.
I'm a part vocal coach and apart, you know, clinician, I I'm
a little bit like a producer.
I'm a little bit of everything.
And I, um, I think all thoseroles have helped guide me into
(40:57):
being sensitive and beingintuitive to other people and
their needs because I've had toput myself in their shoes, in
their creative spaces.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Beautiful.
And I feel like we found yetanother Andrew, we found another
simpatico compatriot here withus in our journey.
So many of the things thatyou've said today, uh, resonate
powerfully with me.
And I know with Andrew, and ifyou go back and listen to all of
our episodes, you'll hear a lotof the same things.
Um, uh, Stephen, it's been anabsolute honor and pleasure to
(41:31):
have you with us today.
I'm
Speaker 1 (41:34):
So grateful and celebratory of your journey and,
um, feel really lucky thatyou've shared part of your story
here in this format today.
But, uh, Steven, you're a friendand a mentor and a confidant and
your uncle Steven to my ownkids.
Um, and they love you.
And we love you.
And I know that everyonelistening today can connect with
(41:56):
your story.
And I'm so glad that you've comeon hyphen and did live to share
it.
Deep gratitude, man.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Well, thanks, Andrew and David, thanks you so much
for the opportunity.
And if I could say something, Idare you to pursue your creative
dreams.
Dance, make music here they are,right.
This sucks because it willchange your life.
Thank you, Steven[inaudible]life is a production of pine
(42:33):
street church in Boulder,Colorado hosted by Andrew
Doherty and David podcast isproduced by Phil Norman and
executive producer, Alexi Modaspecial thanks to our guests
today and the Leal Hill trust ofBoulder, Colorado.
Welcome everybody to season two of hyphenated life.
Thank you for joining us andthank you for following us on
all the obvious channels.
Facebook, Instagram.
I don't think we're on Twitteryet.
and@hyphenatedlife.org, you canalso find us through pine
street, church.net.
(00:22):
Hi, faded life podcasts can befound there as well.
And we're so thankful to ourchurch.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
So we really are excited to be back.
We have, uh, a lot of excitingguests lined up here for this
second season.
And, uh, the first of which is areally good, almost lifelong
friend of yours.
Andrew Wright, Steven nix, wholives in Nashville.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
That's right.
Steven Knicks is on the showtoday.
Uh, Stephen is a Grammynominated songwriter.
He's a producer, he's a vocalcoach.
He's a director of music for achurch in Nashville, uh, and
somebody who, um, kind ofadopted me as his little
brother, what I was in college.
Uh, and so just feel reallygrateful and lucky.
(01:06):
And, uh, to have him on theprogram today and talking about
his own personal journey and hisown kind of musical philosophy,
life philosophy, we kind ofcover a lot of ground today with
Steven.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, I'm excited.
I've heard a lot about him as hehas been, you know, formational
in your life as a friend, as amentor or a colleague.
And, um, I, I hearing his story.
I find so much fascinatinglysimilar to my upbringing.
My story as a musician, youknow, will I'm sure be able to
relate on that level.
(01:38):
Um, and he he's, he said he waslike a surrogate older brother,
and now he's like a surrogateuncle to your kids.
That's how close you are.
And it's so cool to get, to havehim on this podcast today to
kick off season two ofhyphenated life.
I am so excited about this.
Um, tell me a little bit aboutyou guys met at Belmont.
(02:03):
This is not the first guestwe've had.
That's has a connection to youand Belmont university, but
that's a great, a great school,um, a great music program and he
was floating around there andyou floated in and how did you
guys connect?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So he'll talk about this on the episode today, but
we actually met at a mega churchin Nashville.
That was my church in college.
Uh, he was the director ofworship there and doing, uh,
compositions for, for thischurch.
And I was looking for someone,uh, to, to give me vocal lessons
because when I started atBelmont, I was a music major and
(02:38):
then figured out I was goingfail freshmen, piano, and
transferred to the businessdepartment as soon as possible.
And then found my way toreligion is such a, such a weird
and eclectic journey.
Uh, but that's how we met wasthrough the mega church in
Nashville.
And then Steven and I startedwriting music together for, for
that church.
Uh, and so, yeah, that was, thatwas a fun beginning to my
(03:01):
college journey, but meetingSteven and we'll talk, we didn't
quite get into this today, but,uh, letters to a young poet, I
swear to goodness, uh, that wasa formational foundational book
that Steven introduced me toRainer Roco, this beautiful
German poet.
Uh, that's been a big part of myown personal spiritual journey,
(03:22):
but reading that book letters toa young poet completely changed
my life and the way I saw God,the way I saw myself, uh, the
way I saw how I grew up andwhere I was going.
So anybody out there who's notread letters to a young poet.
You got to read that book byRainer Rilke, R I L K E anyway.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So I haven't read that.
So I guess you're speaking to meas much as any of our listeners
who haven't haven't read it.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I was hoping you'd pick up on that.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Just kidding.
Yeah, for sure.
It's a, it's an awesome book.
Welcome to hyphenated life.
We invite you to join us on thisjourney to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
(04:17):
become more fully alive.
Welcome to
Speaker 1 (04:35):
He's to episode one of hyphenated life.
Thank you for joining us,everybody.
And today we have the great goodfortune of launching season two
with Stephen Knicks.
Stephen Nicks is a Grammynominated producer for blues
songwriter and recording of theyear.
He is a pianist and musicaldirector for multiple Christian
(04:58):
country and blues artists.
Stephen currently serves asdirector of music at
Hillsborough Presbyterian churchin Nashville, Tennessee, where
they celebrate the diversity ofmusical styles in worship.
A little bit more about StephenStephen's basic belief for
making music is to have fun, tobe inspired and to be creative.
(05:20):
He holds degrees in piano, voicechoral conducting music,
pedagogy pedagogy.
I'm not sure and arranging fromthe university of South Alabama
and Louisiana state universityLSU go tigers.
I guess he was born in mobile,Alabama on a farm, not too far
(05:40):
from the Gulf of Mexico.
Well, Steven has traveled theworld as a pianist, as a music
director for numerous, numerousprofessional artists and all
sorts of genres.
Uh, he was also creativedirector for Nashville and
Hollywood based music publishingcompanies, and currently spends
lot of time.
Well, at least a little bit oftime as a guest clinician and
(06:00):
vocal coach, Stephen has writtenseveral hundred songs which have
been recorded in sung throughoutthe world.
And what I love, uh, perhapsmost about this fine young man
from Nashville as that he loveshis passion is helping others
become the best musicians andsingers.
They can be through what hedescribes as the universal
(06:22):
language of music to build faithand community Steven Knicks.
Thank you for joining us onhyphenated life today.
What a pleasure.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Thank you.
Wow.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
He didn't know half of that stuff about yourself.
Did you at least forgotten aboutit?
Well, uh, I guess, I don't know.
We can start with this.
I mean, full disclosure, uh,Stephen Knicks is one of my best
friends in life and, uh, he issomebody I've admired since I
(06:59):
was 19 years old.
And it's so interesting since Ijust turned 33.
Everyone knows that's not true.
We've known each other for God,25 years or so by now.
And, uh, he is somebody I admireand respect and, you know,
sometimes we get into ourprofessional worlds and our
(07:21):
personal stories, you know, not,not by intention per se, but get
lost in the mix of what we'redoing professionally, because
one of the things that mostpeople ask, uh, about who we are
is, well, what do you do, right?
It's like, what do you do inlife?
But I think to start today,Steven, uh, I, I would love for
(07:42):
our audience to hear a littlebit about your own personal
story and how you began and yourown evolution, theologically and
personally, and relationally.
And so I'd love to start withthat.
And so you grew up on a farm inthe deep South.
What was that like?
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Uh, well, I always say when you're in the deep
South and you grow up on a farm,uh, it's chores and church,
that's pretty much all it is andschool.
And so basically that was yourentire community was going to
church during your chores andgoing to school.
And that's the way you lived.
Your life was quite simple.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
So what was church like for you growing up?
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Well, I was raised very strict what they call
Pentecostal holiness, which wasthe belief that like we couldn't
have TVs, we couldn't wearshorts.
Women had to wear dresses, womencouldn't cut their hair.
Men had to keep their hairshort.
So I was, I was raised in a verystrict religious background.
(08:47):
Um, but you know, that's what itwas, it was normal.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
So you've talked a little bit and, and some more
full disclosure.
Steven was recently featured onpride forward, which is a
storytelling project with theUSA today network.
And, uh, we can link to that onour hyphenated life page as
well.
But one of the things that stoodout to me too, is you talking
about your own development interms of coming to terms, you
(09:17):
know, and, and, and a gradualdawning about your, your fullest
self, your truest self, and whoyou were, uh, as a child growing
up musically, uh, and then, uh,who you wanted to be and how
that, that came to be.
And I know that, uh, there'ssome personal moments and
milestones in your own growingup story.
(09:39):
Uh, maybe begin a little bitmusically speaking, how music
came to be part of your own, uh,your own soulful medicine or
soul medicine, if you will.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Well, for one thing, my family are very well known in
the music in the gospel musicworld.
And so music was pretty much thestaple of our existence.
Uh, my dad threatened me atfour.
If I didn't sing, he was goingto, I was going to be in
trouble.
So I was a shy kid and Iimmediately learned to sing.
(10:10):
As a matter of fact, it was thisweek.
I, uh, the lady that taught mehow to sing harmonies.
She says, she remembers me whenshe was, I was like five.
And then I just learned theharmonies very quickly and she
never had to teach me again.
So, but music was just, it was,it was the only expression we
had outside of, um, church andschool and farm life.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
And you had, I mean, I would describe it as a lot of
adultness in your childhood.
Could you talk a little bitabout what that looked like in
your world growing up, uh, a lotof adultness as, as a kid and a
lot of responsibility that youaccepted and adopted early on?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Well, I, I like to call myself the crazy accident
in my family.
I was the surprise kid, the, uh,uh, parents who are
substantially older than normal.
My mother was like 45 when I wasborn and my dad was in his
fifties or early fifties.
So that was kind of a surprisekid.
(11:12):
So when I came along, uh, theyhad already had two other
children.
I'll send me.
Um, but, um, I had a lot ofresponsibilities, but at 15, my
mother passed away suddenly, andmy siblings had already left
home and I was left to sort ofsustain the household and
(11:36):
literally took what, uh, incomemy mother left me through social
security and paid the housenotes.
And I kept myself alive at 15,no health because my dad, he
just suffered from extensivegrief, uh, because of the loss
that he sort of could notfunction.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
So you took up sort of a, in some sense, a
matriarchal and a patriarchalrole in your own family growing
up and fast forwarding.
Just a little bit.
You also graduated high schoolawfully early in, started your
college journey awfully early.
Right.
Could you talk a little bitabout that as well?
Speaker 4 (12:15):
It was the same year that my mother died at 15, that,
uh, I graduated from highschool.
Um, I was valedictorian in myclass and, um, I'll never forget
doing the speech and just barelygetting through the speech for
the tiers, you know, losing yourmother.
And I received scholarships to,uh, so university of South
(12:39):
Alabama, and I immediately tookthem.
It was a way out of the farm, atleast something different
because I desperately, I wantedto pursue something again.
I was just searching for who Iwas going to be.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Right.
And, and where, I mean, if youcould think a little bit about,
you know, you've described thePentecostal holiness tradition,
were you also thinking about howam I different theologically at
that point, or are you kind ofdealing with so many other
things that you're just kind ofmanaging life, but I'm kind of
curious, like how did that alsojumpstart your own theological
(13:17):
evolution through, you know,being raised in that kind of
strict conservative traditionand here you are with the world
opening up to you.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
I recall that just the, uh, sociological shock of
being a part of a secularinstitution, such as a
university state school, uh,that, that along was just
overwhelming to me.
And then to add to it, the factthat I was the youngest person
(13:51):
on the university campus, thatpoint, um, my peer group was
basically, they were all olderthan me, much older than me, you
know, two and three years older,which is a lot in that, you know
, when you're 15.
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So how are you, you know, when you think about
coming to your fullest self, thetruest version of yourself,
where were you in that processas well?
Because what I loved aboutlistening to your story, uh,
with the storytelling project ishow you were surrounded by so
much conservatism,theologically, and really coming
(14:27):
to terms with who Stephen reallywas through all of that, who
your truest self, your deepestsoul was.
Could you talk a little bitabout how all of that was
unfolding as well through thatprocess?
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Sure.
You know, the, the overarching,uh, reality to the story is I
think that God gently guides us,even when we don't, we're not
aware that that is happening.
Um, I basically shoved anythingthat had to do with relational,
sexual, anything.
I just shoved it down.
I just totally turned myselfinward focused to, uh, education
(15:04):
and making good grades andkeeping my scholarships.
And I really didn't even givemyself a choice even during
undergrad or grad school to eventhink about that.
Uh, and I think it was my, itwas a form of escapism for
myself to just survive.
Uh, you know, now that I lookback, that's what I was doing.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Right.
And so, so that theme ofadultness was kind of showing
up, you were just doing what youhad to do.
So what, what, what would, whatwould you say would be another
kind of milestone moment ofmoving toward, uh, coming into
your gifts, uh, you know, yourjourney to Nashville.
Uh, if you could talk about alittle bit of those, those pivot
(15:44):
points, what would you point to?
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Well, I, I th I think, you know, unlike most
people, I did have contacts herein Nashville being that there
were family here.
Uh, so I wasn't going into aplace that was totally strange
to me.
I at least knew some people, uh,but I had started teaching at
LSU some and just realized thatI was number one.
(16:09):
I was really young and I did notwant to be a part of, I wanted
to be in a creative world, notin so much the educational world
where you're stuck doing thesame courses every semester.
I wanted something morecreative.
And so I made my way toNashville, Tennessee just moved
here.
And the first night I was here,I walked into a big mega church
(16:34):
and I was hired first night, butit was only because my family
knew all the people and knew me.
So I know that sounds weird, butthat's really true.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I bet it was.
And that in that mega church, bythe way, is where, uh, you and I
met, uh, I was grin and Grennancoming to Belmont university in
Nashville, looking for voicelessons.
And, uh, that's, that's sort ofhow we met as well.
Uh, before I, when I startedwriting songs.
And before I wrote, before Istarted writing sermons, there
(17:10):
was a, there was a few years inbetween there.
Uh, it, Steve would was a bigpart of, of that journey for me,
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Stephen, thank you again for being with us today.
Uh, this is exciting.
I've heard a lot about you.
And, uh, one, one thing Idefinitely noticed, and I hear
some similarities for you is youcan, one can, can get, um, in
that boat of regimen andstructure and formality such as
comes with academia orprofessional environments, such
(17:38):
as working for a church as apaid church musician.
And while you can certainly haveyour own spirituality, your own
spiritual path, um, in manyways, it's really easy to muffle
that, to put dampeners on it sothat it kind of keeps within
those rigid structures and ithyphenated life.
That's one of the things we, we,we created this podcast was to
(18:01):
explore how, how can thosethings be those dualities be
eliminated, or how can thosestructures and spiritual
passions be combined and, andbecome symbiotic.
And I wonder if there's anyexperience you've had as you
moved along in your career andin your life where you found
some of those, those seeminglyopposed elements becoming,
(18:24):
starting to work together.
Um, if you have any experienceslike that, you'd want to share,
Speaker 4 (18:29):
I guess, you know, working in church work, you
learn to become a conduit forthe talent of others, and you
learn to focus on other people.
It becomes a, if you're doing itcorrectly, you're going to
become a little, a lot selfless,not selfish.
And so it's very easy in thepattern of trying to help others
(18:51):
find their musical selves, findtheir musical excellence.
I encouraging them, focusingthem, directing them, teaching
them.
It's easy to kind of forgetabout yourself in which you
know, for me, I think now that Ilook back on it, it was a way of
coping with me not having todeal with, you know, who I
(19:14):
really was, but if I could focuson other people and other
people's talent, then I didn'thave to focus in on me.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah.
That's uh, that's beautiful.
I think, you know, you, you saidat one point you were, you had a
bit of an aversion towardspossibly teaching collegiately
at LSU we're teaching.
Um, but we find ourselves inthat role a lot anyways.
Um, and you know, that, that isone of the things about that,
(19:42):
that the, uh, markers of theimportance of self care, right?
If you are caring for others,but you're not well yourself
because you've neglectedyourself, then there's an
imbalance there, and you're notable to help them to your
fullest extent.
And therefore they don't get thebest version of you.
You're not experiencing the bestversion of yourself or oneself.
This is not you or menecessarily, but I think, uh,
(20:05):
you know, uh, relatableexperience.
So, um, I know for me, one thingthat I've found is, is giving
myself the opportunity to, tohave focus inwardly on, on what
it is that I'm doing for myself.
(20:26):
If I'm able to do that, I findthat I am able to help others in
a better way.
Um, and I wonder, you know, Ithink of, and you, as someone
who studied voice, uh, andchoral conducting at ACA ACA in
academia, uh, there's a lot offocus on some technical, you
(20:47):
know, if you've taught voiceversus coaching voice, this is
sort of two different concepts.
And one thing I think that makesvoice and singing unique is that
the instrument is internal andwe can do all the things in the
world to analyze a vocalspectrum of the sound wave of
what happens when you raise yoursoft palate or lower your jaw,
(21:08):
or, you know, have your tongueforward or up in the back and
all of the different things andhow to manipulate sound.
And okay, now go do that.
It's not like pressing a key onthe piano or a key on a brass
instrument or a finger on a fretboard.
It's a, you have to switch gearsinto what is actually, from my
(21:29):
perspective, it is like aspiritual outlook.
Do you have to give a metaphor?
You know, like do like you'reinhaling, you're, you're
smelling the fragrance of a Rosefor the first time.
That's how you get you theinsides of your body to do
things that isn't pressing abutton.
You know, that's one of thethings I love about singing,
about singing with others, abouthelping others is sing, whether
(21:51):
it's an, a voice lesson or a,you know, a coaching, which is
my preference a little more aswell, but, um, can you tell me
about how some of that is, isreally, um, helped or impacted
you in a spiritual kind of way?
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Well, uh, the minutia of being, uh, you know, my
master's degree in pedagogy, uh,it was focused on the science of
how things worked and which ittook you into this critical
thinking of how do, uh, how doesmy finger connect to the note?
How does my voice connect to thevowel sound?
(22:28):
Everything was science.
It wasn't some sort ofextemporaneous sort of like
accident, but there weretechniques and capabilities of
doing that.
And when you start developingthat thought process, you
immediately can turn yourself toyour spiritual world, and you
want to understand what thismeans and what it means to you
(22:51):
and where you are in that andwhat works and what doesn't
work.
And the connections of that.
I really think that music was agreat tool because I had no
mentor at no one to guide me,except I do.
I'm still an avid, and I don'tsay this to be spiritual, but I,
I believe in prayer and I didn'thave parents to lean on.
(23:16):
So, um, I would just praying ofGod.
I don't know.
I just don't know.
And there was not one momentwhere God didn't sort of
intervene in some way, you know,it may not have been the
ultimate answer, but it was agentle nudge in a direction I
needed to be.
That makes sense.
(23:40):
And I will never forget it.
And here's the epiphany thatreally just blew me.
I, when I came to Nashville, Iwas playing a lot for people,
their music director, and I wassort of playing the role of
keeping everybody corralled andon the same page and started
realizing that, uh, I would goin the studios and they would be
(24:01):
singing these songs and theyweren't really that good.
And I'm like, I can writesomething better.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
And so I started, I started writing songs and again,
I took my pedagogy and I startedanalyzing what's a good song
from another song.
Like for instance, I get, I gota request last last year for
billboard magazine to do anovercompensating of, of, you
know, the pop country world andwhy it affects people, you know?
(24:31):
And, uh, so you start doingthat.
Well, I started writing songsand these songs were being cut.
The songs were being recorded.
I mean, I had no intention ofthat.
And I remember the, I guess themost moving time was I said in a
congregation of a mega church,you're probably 3,500 to 4,000
(24:53):
people there.
And they had multiple serviceswith that number.
So you can imagine how manypeople were in attendance in one
service.
And they just kept doing thesame service.
So they were using the samemusic, but they sang two of my
songs.
Congregationally back to back.
I sat in the congregation and Inever felt so alone in my life.
(25:16):
I felt this sense of here.
Everyone knows everything.
I've shared this, but theyreally don't know who I am.
I've shared my talent, but Ihaven't cheered me.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's where from myfriendship with you, Steven,
well, it started out as I wasyour vote vocal, uh, student for
awhile.
Uh, and it's, it's, uh, somewhatmiraculous to me how our, our
friendship has grown over theyears.
But one of the things that Iwould hold up that I've, I've
(25:50):
watched you and seen you do overand over in your life is this
fine integration about your,your musical prowess.
The, uh, I'll be ironic and say,humble panache you have had
about your own artistry, butthere was always this kind of
(26:12):
binary thing going on, right?
This, this splitting that wenton, that you had to do for a
long time between what you didin the church, because you
couldn't be fully who you were,and then finding that
integration point.
And I've heard you talk aboutthis story where you left that
mega church on that Sunday, orwhenever it was, they were
playing your songs.
(26:32):
And you felt like you just said,you felt so alone.
And something happened though,when you left that service on
your way home, could you saywhat that was?
It's
Speaker 4 (26:44):
It's really?
And this is, this is wheremystical, Stephen jumps up.
And I do apologize, but youknow, it's been my salvation.
Well, I, you know, I got him acar and again, I go to praying
and I'm crying, just tears.
I could barely see, and I wascrying and I just ran out of the
(27:05):
church in the middle of theservice.
And I got in my car and said,God, I don't know what I'm
supposed to do.
I love you.
But I feel so alone.
I need, I need somewhere.
I need a home.
I need a community.
I need to feel like I am Stephen.
The person, not just Stephen,the musician or the director of
(27:27):
the piano player, whatever.
And I got in my car and wasdriving home.
And literally I looked up andthere was a sign in Bellmead,
you know, where MailMate is,don't you?
Anyway, there were signs aboutme, of this church and the
church service started laterthan normal service services.
It was like, I think 1130 orsomething.
(27:49):
So I said, I mean, I'd neverbeen to, it didn't know anything
about the church, but I said,I'm going to try this.
I'm going to just go to anotherchurch just to see what happened
I walk into.
And it's, uh, I walk into thechurch, it's a UCC church.
Uh, I walk in and sit in theback and all of a sudden I
(28:09):
realize I'm in the middle of alot of lesbian, gay,
transgender.
I am sitting right there, but Ihad no idea that that's what
that was.
Again, I feel like that wasGod's way of kind of quietly
pushing me to a place.
And when I entered there, youknow, they were singing.
(28:31):
So I was singing, they turnedaround because it was a small
place.
And so you could hear me, theywere like, you can sing.
And I said, yeah.
And so, anyway, it started out,uh, I met, I started meeting.
I met friends that that day, Imean, I met great friends that I
still have to this day.
And it was just a wildconnection.
(28:53):
All of a sudden I felt like Iwas a part of community and I
had suffered from depression,deep depression, because I was
for, for many years.
And that, I mean, my depressionjust left.
It was like an instantaneousit's gone.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
It's like everything you had pushed down or
suppressed, there was a releasesomehow with that, as you say,
mystical moment, thatserendipity, that made you stop
in at that church that day onyour way, on your way back from
loneliness to integration andcommunity.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Well, what was weird about that is that church I
ended up, they ended up beggingme to start a little choir and I
was a little bit hesitantbecause I was still traveling,
but I'm like, this'll be fun andwill be fun for everyone.
And I tend to, like, when I, Itend to like very soulful gospel
music, because I think itconnects with people in a
(29:51):
passionate way.
It's cathartic and being LGB,you know, being LGBTQ, there's a
lot of suppression and a lot ofhiding that goes on and to be
able to just let it all out, youknow, in song and in music.
And I started this choir andthis fledgling choir grew to be
(30:14):
a formidable, uh, gay andlesbian choir in the Southeast
gospel choir.
Well, I mean, we, I mean, wewent everywhere, but it was, it
was, again, it was that day ofme being obedient to my own
feelings of loneliness and justfollowing a path, because I knew
(30:34):
that something, I neededsomething more,
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Your powers of intuition that, that led you to
that.
Right.
I mean, you didn't have, likeyou said, you didn't have a
mentor, you didn't have a guideper se, telling you whispering
over your shoulder.
Here's where you go and what youdo or leading you down that
road.
It was a journey of discoverypretty much that you made by
yourself.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Right.
Right.
And I think the, the reality ofthat was, uh, I met people of
genuine who had been on the samejourney I was on.
And it was, it was a place ofsolace.
It was safety.
It was, I didn't feel like I wastelling, you know, I didn't feel
like I was like the guy with thehorns sticking out of his head.
(31:21):
I felt like I was a normal humanbeing.
Whereas I used to feel like, Oh,I'm a little bit different than
these people.
And it wasn't that I was better.
I just had a differentperspective.
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Well, you are, you've always been a sort of unicorn
Steven.
Right.
Don't sell yourself short.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Yeah.
You can be one thing and that'soriginal.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
That's all right.
Which you are well, yourecently, and we'll, we'll head
toward the finish here, but, uh,there are two or three quick
things I just want to say orask.
And the first thing I would, uh,observe is that you recently,
and you rarely do this because Iknow you're very humble.
You're a humble unicorn.
(32:02):
Uh, and, and you don't want totalk about yourself.
You don't wanna listen toyourself, but what I loved about
what you've done recently, uh, Ithink it was on your, your
personal Facebook page, but you,you extended a personal
challenge to people to findtheir creative spirit.
Um, could you talk a little bitabout that?
(32:24):
Number one, and then number two,for anybody listening to
hyphenated live with thisepisode, if they are, you know,
struggling with who they arecoming to grips with, what's my
truest self.
What advice might you give tosomeone feeling some of the fear
or confusion that you yourselffelt along your journey, uh, to
(32:46):
kind of coming to a place ofthat openness and integration,
that integration point thatyou've talked about today.
So could you respond kind ofbriefly to those two things?
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Well, regarding the creative nature and the creative
souls that we have, we're allcreative human beings.
Um, no matter how boring you maythink you are, there's something
you're creative with that mightbe cooking.
It might be sowing.
It might be writing a letter,but you are creative.
(33:17):
And, and I think sometimes wethink that to be our best
creative selves and to findourselves, we have to be the
best at it.
And that's not true.
You know, the thing that I, Itell people all the time and I
challenged them and I willperpetually challenge them.
So their di is don'tprocrastinate with your
(33:39):
creativity because you don'tthink you can do it.
You don't think you're capableof doing it, just do it.
And B be honest with yourselfand make moments for yourself.
Take time, make an appointmentwith yourself, whether it's
weekly, daily, or even monthly,you know, start small and you
(33:59):
get bigger, you know, and pickup the paintbrush, uh, sit down
with the instrument or play thatinstrument, sing that song,
write that song, write thatpoem, write that book, do
whatever you have to do, youknow, create whatever you have
to, because I think it's anecessary journey in our
spirituality to, uh, to liveauthentically.
(34:22):
And when a person is livingwithin their true, authentic
creative self, there is afulfillment that money prestige
and nothing can buy.
And that's something I know tobe true
Speaker 1 (34:37):
For anybody listening today, who is struggling with
who they are or trying to findtheir tribe, uh, that you, that
you obviously found through along journey.
What advice would you have forthem today?
Uh, those folks out therelistening who are struggling
with their own sexuality or whothey are and trying to find
their place, what would you sayto them today?
Speaker 4 (34:59):
Being honest with what you need is not being
selfish and it's not wrong.
And, you know, for some peopleit's a series of, they just have
to seek and seek and seek, but,uh, you know, there's scripture
seek and you will find, um, andI, I, I tell them, tell people
(35:20):
all of a sudden, just, justexperience things, go to places
where, you know, people are likeyou, and you can find some sort
of community because we alldesire community.
And that's innate in all of us,regardless of us being
introverts or extroverts, we alldesire community.
So just be honest with yourselfand go, I need this for me.
(35:44):
You're not being selfish, butyou're being, you're taking a
step towards your own fullness.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
And you found that in the church, you, you started off
, uh, at one point on thecompass and have landed in
another.
And one of the reallyinteresting things is again,
where a promise fell.
We're heading to a close, but,uh, one thing that, uh, I loved
recently, you know, RaphaelWarnock, who is only the, you
(36:13):
know, recently elected to theSenate from the great state of
Georgia, um, and only the 11thAfrican-American Senator, I
believe who's ever served inthis country.
Uh, he was quoted, he was askedhow his background as a pastor,
uh, informed his approach touniting people in the divided
time in which we live in ourcountry.
(36:36):
And he said, listen, if you'veever had to get folks who like
anthems and folks who likecontemporary gospel music to
work together, you can doanything.
And Steven, I think you saidsomething like I should run for
Senate too.
Right?
Uh,
Speaker 4 (36:54):
I'm running for Senate
Speaker 1 (36:56):
That's right.
So, so, so, so as we kind ofcome to a finish talking about
this sort of secular sacred, youknow what David and I have
talked about a lot here athyphenated life as a false
binary, a false dichotomy, uh,and thinking about how you have
found that community within thatstructure, that container within
(37:20):
the church, what is the power ofchurches today in their role,
in, in, in engendering, unityand creativity and blasting
these binaries blasting thesedualities about sacred and
secular, what would you say tothe church today?
Speaker 4 (37:39):
Well, I would say this, not to say this a lot of
times when I get to be sort oflike at a convention or speak in
regard to these, these, um,issues in the church that are
not modern issues, they've beenthrough decades, you know, it's
just becoming more apparent.
Um, and we're able tocommunicate more quickly
regarding them, but, uh, I thinkorganically being aware of your
(38:03):
congregants is a necessarything.
I see so many leaders that go inand they, they, they push their,
love, their musical taste ontothese other people.
When in fact they're consumingsomething totally different,
whether that's a secular tune,whether it's a, him from Amar,
from Luther, whatever, butknowing your congregants and
(38:28):
giving them a chance or givingthem a place where the music and
for me, you know, my creativityis music, giving them a place
where that's something thatinspires them, but you have to
be very diverse at that.
Very aware of the people you'rearound, not every, not every
(38:50):
conquer gets going, like thesame thing.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
I, I hear through your story, a lot of, um, sort
of noticing of, um, you know,roles and characters that
defined who you were, um,whether it's teacher, whether
it's composer, whether it'sperformer, whether it's
caretaker.
(39:13):
Um, and I hear the transition,you know, it wasn't overnight
that move from Nashville backdown towards your home.
You know, maybe that was point aand point B, but it was a
lifetime to get all the waythrough that.
But it seems like there wasalmost an epiphany moment.
And I wonder how those roleschanged for you and how you
(39:37):
identified with them from thatmove from Nashville, where as a
composer, you looked up andheard 6,000 people happily
singing your song and never feltmore alone to, you know, roughly
24 hours later.
Not that they were singing yoursong, but you never felt more
engaged and together and movingfrom there.
(39:59):
How, how did, how did thoseroles that you still embrace in
and, and live in today?
How did they change in, in, are,are they more part of you now?
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Well, uh, you know, I , I think, you know, with, with
living now that I'm over 21, nowthat I'm now with, with living,
I think you start when you firstencounter, like the role of a
composer, the role of all ofthem are separate entities
(40:33):
within themselves, but they'reuniquely worked together.
And, um, they all sort of formwho you are.
You know, I'm, I'm a part pianoguy.
I'm a part rider.
I'm a part vocal coach and apart, you know, clinician, I I'm
a little bit like a producer.
I'm a little bit of everything.
And I, um, I think all thoseroles have helped guide me into
(40:57):
being sensitive and beingintuitive to other people and
their needs because I've had toput myself in their shoes, in
their creative spaces.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Beautiful.
And I feel like we found yetanother Andrew, we found another
simpatico compatriot here withus in our journey.
So many of the things thatyou've said today, uh, resonate
powerfully with me.
And I know with Andrew, and ifyou go back and listen to all of
our episodes, you'll hear a lotof the same things.
Um, uh, Stephen, it's been anabsolute honor and pleasure to
(41:31):
have you with us today.
I'm
Speaker 1 (41:34):
So grateful and celebratory of your journey and,
um, feel really lucky thatyou've shared part of your story
here in this format today.
But, uh, Steven, you're a friendand a mentor and a confidant and
your uncle Steven to my ownkids.
Um, and they love you.
And we love you.
And I know that everyonelistening today can connect with
(41:56):
your story.
And I'm so glad that you've comeon hyphen and did live to share
it.
Deep gratitude, man.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Well, thanks, Andrew and David, thanks you so much
for the opportunity.
And if I could say something, Idare you to pursue your creative
dreams.
Dance, make music here they are,right.
This sucks because it willchange your life.
Thank you, Steven[inaudible]life is a production of pine
(42:33):
street church in Boulder,Colorado hosted by Andrew
Doherty and David podcast isproduced by Phil Norman and
executive producer, Alexi Modaspecial thanks to our guests
today and the Leal Hill trust ofBoulder, Colorado.
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