December 3, 2020 • 48 mins
Hyphenated Life gets to sit down with Ryan Daniel Dobson, the writer and director of the film Hosea, produced by Avril Speaks and Suzanne Watson, who also join us for this episode. Together we explore the expressive crossover of the sacred and the secular worlds of a cast of characters in modern day Oklahoma City and the Old Testament biblical story of the minor prophet, Hosea. The film itself is a modern-day retelling of this ancient story through the eyes of its forgotten female character, Gomer, Hosea's wife, represented by the character Cate in this inspiring film. Find out more about the film HERE
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Whereas she says toward the end, there's good
inside of me.
Not later when I'm fixed rightnow, I'm good.
That's hopeful.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
One of the things that they, they show there is
that, um, you know, you do haveinherent good goodness within
you and, and you don't have tobe fixed.
And in fact, you can't be fixed.
So someone waiting on you to befixed, to give you their
unconditional love or to thinkthat they can fix you.
(00:28):
Um, there are fallacies, youknow, and it's that, that sort
of sacred versus secular thatdoesn't exist.
Let's all come down here to thelevel playing field,
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Welcome to hyphenated life.
This is Andrew Dardy, along withI'm David[inaudible].
We're here today with the writerand director of Hosea, the film
along with two producers,Suzanne and Avril for a great
conversation on a fairlyextraordinary film.
It's, it's very unique in thesense that it's, it's really a,
(00:59):
uh, uh, a full narrative of acore Hebrew Bible story, the
prophet Hosea, uh, part of, oneof the, what they call 12 minor
prophets in the old Testament.
But this movie is aboutrecasting and retelling that
ancient story about, uh, theprophet Hosea and Gomer and
(01:21):
unpacks the background of all ofthat story and, and very raw and
real, uh, and human ways.
And, um, all of these questionsabout relationships and faith
and redemption and self worthand self love.
All of those huge themes arespotlighted in Hosea.
(01:41):
And it's amazing to me that, youknow, a book like Hosea in the
old Testament, that's not reallywell known.
I was just kind of thinking it'snot, Jose is not a natural, at
least in my experience, anatural, uh, Bible story to
explore and study it doesn'tcome up that often.
And, you know, if you're achurch nerd in the church
(02:01):
lectionary calendar, we don'tread from Hosea very often,
maybe a couple of times over athree-year period or so.
So it's very interesting thatthis story has bubbled up for
Ryan Dobson, the writer anddirector, uh, and making a film
about, um, a story that has suchcore themes of, of love and
(02:24):
forgiveness and perseverance.
Yeah.
I don't think, uh,
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Top 10 most Googled books of the old Testament,
probably.
You're not going to probably hiton Jose on anybody's top 10 list
.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
And, uh,
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Interesting to me that they titled the movie Hosea
just like the book in the oldTestament, but the main
character isn't Hosea has itit's it's Henry it's well, Henry
is, is the equivalent of Hosea.
But the story is in this movieis told from the perspective of
Kate, who is the biblicalstories, equivalent of Gomer,
(03:02):
exactly.
Which is flipped upside down orat least backwards.
Um, and I think that for me,changed everything, right?
It, it, you go from theprotagonist being this male
salvation figure Hosea to we'reseeing this story told through
(03:23):
the eyes of, of, it's not, Idon't want to say it's the
antagonist in the biblicalstory, but, um, it's, it's not,
it's not the good guy, right?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Right.
No, it's told through the eyesof what, uh, the director Ryan
Dobson's called the forgottenfemale character, which is Kate,
uh, uh, the Gomer equivalent inthe old Testament story.
And it has been told by two ofthe world's biggest faith
traditions.
You look at Judaism andChristianity as a metaphor for
love and forgiveness.
(03:55):
Uh, but it's also been usedthroughout history to, uh, for,
for difficult things likesubjugating women.
Uh, it's been used to justifyspousal abuse or to blame
victims of violence and sextrafficking as though their own
very painful experiences wheretheir own fault.
So this film offers analternative and, uh, to that a
(04:16):
more redemptive version of thisancient story.
And it's interesting becauseit's such a subversive narrative
in a certain way, because whenyou read the book of Hosea or,
you know, lessons we havelearned from that, whether
through the church, mainlythrough the church, I guess if
you're familiar with that story,it really is through the eyes of
Hosea, which allegoricallyHosea.
(04:38):
If we want to put it in simpleterms, Jose has God, Gomer is
representative of Israel orhumanity, which Kate is.
And so we're seeing this storythrough the eyes of real raw
humanity through Kate'scharacter.
And I think a lot of this too,is, uh, subverting a severe
patriarchy that we get from alot of biblical stories.
(05:01):
And so we look at this storythrough her own eyes, through
her own journey, with substanceabuse, with, uh, a lot of
messiness of love and addiction,uh, and her journey to find
self-worth.
And self-acceptance through allof that.
It is a very different angle ofvision than what, uh, we are,
(05:23):
you know, taught in the churchabout the dominant narrative of
Hosea, which I think makes
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Extra intriguing, welcome to hyphenated life,
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Invite you to join us on this journey, to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
become more fully alive.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
[inaudible]
Speaker 1 (06:04):
We're so happy today to have the writer and director
and two producers for the filmHosea with us on hyphenated
life.
And I'd love to introduce, uh,Ryan Daniel Dobson.
He's a filmmaker based in LosAngeles.
He is the writer director of thefeature film Hosea, the founder
of revived transformed vintageclothing and producer writer of
(06:26):
the narrative podcast.
The thicket after studyingtheology in college, Ryan turned
his attention to theentertainment industry with a
focus on marrying theologicaland philosophical concepts to
powerful visual storytelling andan in addition to the film
Hosea, which we're talking abouttoday, Ryan has written and
directed several award-winningshort films featured at
(06:48):
festivals around the world, Ryandental, Dobson, welcome to
hyphenated life today.
Oh my goodness.
Thanks for having me.
That's quiet.
And just like to start mostmornings this way.
This is great.
Nice.
Yeah, very good.
We're also joined today bySuzanne Watson.
Suzanne began her career in thelive special events world where
she planned and produce majorevents all over the United
(07:10):
States, including the Superbowl,what presidential inaugural ball
college bowl games in thepresident's cup shortly after
moving to Los Angeles, Susannecombined her love for the
entertainment industry andexperience in live event
production to producing films.
And she has produced severalaward-winning short films, and
most recently returned to theNapa Valley fem film festival
(07:32):
with her feature Hosea, againthat we're talking about today,
that wasn't the jury award forbest verge performance
recognition way to go, Suzanne.
That's awesome.
Welcome to hyphenated life.
Thank you.
It's so good to be here and lastbut not least Avril speaks is
also joining us today.
We have a whole small group ofpeople on our, on our call.
(07:56):
April has been carving out herpath as a bold, innovative
content creator for severalyears, not only as a producer
and director, but also duringher days as a former professor
at the distinguished Howarduniversity, she produced the
award-winning film, Jen, whichpremiered in narrative
competition at South bySouthwest and one special Jerry
(08:17):
recognition for riding.
Uh, she also gained, uh, well,the film Jenn gained
distribution through MGM Orionclassics and continues to be
seen throughout the world.
Avril has also produced severalfilms, including Hosea, which
we're talking about today in theSouth African film, African
America and the comedy Dottieand soul April has coordinated
(08:40):
international film educationprograms, such as global media
makers and the inauguralHollywood foreign press
association filmmaker residency.
She is a contributing writer forDeere producer.com and has also
directed feature films, theround table and the
award-winning sophisticatedromance.
April speaks welcome tohyphenated life to you.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Well, thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So my goodness, uh, Hosea the film as a pastor here
in Boulder, Colorado at pinestreet church, I have just been
thinking about, you know, howinfrequently the Hosea narrative
comes up, even for all thechurch nerds listening in the
lectionary, which we generallyfollow here at pine street
(09:27):
church in Boulder, howinfrequently the Hosea
narratives come up forliturgical worship.
And so, uh, it is, uh, just apowerful retelling of this
ancient story of Hosea, one ofthe 12 minor prophets in the old
Testament for those who don'tknow, but this is through the
eyes of what you all havedescribed as the forgotten
(09:48):
female character of Gomer andthat character's name is Kate
and the film Hosea.
So I just sorta wanted to startwith, with any of you and all of
you of what inspired you to makethis film.
And how did you pick Hosea, uh,to, to do that?
Speaker 4 (10:08):
I'm fascinated by your point that, uh, Hosea
doesn't come up very often, uh,in the lectionary or used in
churches.
I wonder why that is.
Why are we scared by this text?
You guys, um, I, uh, I, all ofus have kind of slightly
different versions though withsimilar stories about how we
came to this idea in this film.
(10:29):
Um, but generally it was becauseI think all of us having grown
up in faith spaces have heard aversion of this story being used
that as we became adults, didn'tflush with how we understood
human beings to operate.
So by that, I mean, for me, Iwas going to a Christian
university in Oklahoma where wewere required to go to chapel.
(10:50):
And, uh, as part of one of thoseservices, this text was preached
on in a way that I recognizedfrom my childhood, uh, where
this person Hosea this prophetwas meant to represent God.
And so even just the way thatthat person then gets talked
about from the pulpit oftentimesis like, he was probably a great
father and had to be a fantastichusband because of course that's
(11:12):
what he was like if herepresents God in this
allegorical story.
And then conversely, the personof Gomer, um, almost takes on
this mantle of like originalsin, you know, the Freudian is
she just, uh, sort of wandersaround the world by her
appetites.
And, um, there's one specificpoint in the sermon where, uh,
(11:33):
the, the person said the personpreaching said that Gomer, um,
left her, her children.
The story says, the biblicalstory says she has that they
have three kids together.
She leaves her family and goesto sell her body for sex.
And I remember for the firsttime as a growing human being
going, wait a minute, thatdoesn't sound like, uh, the way
(11:53):
a logical person operates.
Like if you have a home in amarriage and three kids and you
make the decision to leave allthat, you probably have a series
of reasons for that kind ofdecision.
And so for me, that was the seedof just starting to, um, think
and percolate on this idea of,well, how are we sanitizing this
story and what are we losing bydoing that?
(12:16):
Uh, and that just began the longjourney of wanting to take a
look at this story, specificallythe character of Gomer and think
about what, what her life wouldhave had to have been like in
order for the decisions thatscripture says she makes to have
made sense.
Uh, and I think Suzanne, you,you had a similar kind of desire
to approach Gomer because of a
Speaker 5 (12:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was thinking about it thismorning, Andrew, like what you
said is I don't actually thinkgrowing.
I mean, I grew up in the church.
I don't remember hearing thestory of Hosea really ever as it
as a kid, it was really like inmy late probably teens, early
twenties, I was reading a bookand it was sort of a retelling
of that, um, of the Hoseastories.
(13:00):
That's the first time I reallyremember understanding it or
hearing about it.
And that was the first seed thatwas planted in my mind of, okay,
this is a really interestingstory.
Uh, but I, I wonder what thiswould look like if it was
re-imagined in a modern daysetting in a real authentic way
with characters that are maybelike us or people we know, like,
what would that look like?
(13:22):
Because it wouldn't be PG and itwould be hard and uncomfortable,
but I think it would beimportant to tell.
And that was sort of the firstseed that was planted for me.
And then years later, uh, Ryan,I had been friends for a long
time and we both mutually, wetold a mutual friend the same
thing separately about uswanting to do this story.
And so that's sort of how thewhole thing got started is the
(13:43):
two of us met at a coffee shopon a Saturday morning and said,
let's, let's try it.
Let's make this movie.
And they gave each other a hugand a lot of meetings started
and then we met April and that,and then the trio was formed.
Speaker 6 (14:02):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, I think I'msimilar to Suzanne.
I don't, I maybe, I don'tremember Jose of being like on
the top of a list of sermonsgrowing up.
Um, but I do remember, you know,there, there are several other
stories in the Bible wherealways feeling like, you know,
the women kind of the women inthe story kind of gets lost.
(14:22):
And I remember, you know,sitting in church, listening to,
you know, Jacob and Leah is onethat comes to mind where I'm
always just like, I should sayJacob and Rachel, cause it's
always preached about Jacob andRachel, nobody ever talks about
Leah, you know?
And so I've always had instanceslike that where I'm always kind
of thinking about what aboutthis woman over here that, you
know, they just kind of left outof this story she's in there and
(14:44):
we kind of read the line, butyou know, we don't really talk
about, so for me, uh, I met, uh,Ryan and Suzanne, um, actually
right after I finished filminggin and was kind of in this
space of, you know, doing filmsthat, uh, reflect, you know,
spirituality and that arelooking at spirituality and
faith in really interestingways.
(15:07):
And so for me reading thisscript was kind of in that same
vein of, uh, of asking thosequestions about the women that
we read about in the Bible.
Um, so it was, you know, it wassuch a well-written script and,
you know, the fact that it wascoming from the perspective of
Gomer was something that, um, Ifelt we hadn't seen before, um,
(15:29):
and fit in my narrative of, of,of constantly asking these
questions in my head.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Three of you just talked about this concept of
perspective.
Uh, that was one of the thingsthat really jumped out to me on
a lighter note.
I remember the last episode lastseason of the series arrested
development was like sixepisodes.
And every single one was toldfrom a different character's
perspective.
And it was amazing how the samestory from six different
perspectives was six differentstories.
(15:57):
You know what I mean?
We all understand thatbasically.
Um, but to see it played out onfilm, uh, as what we saw here
and, and I, you know, not to gettoo, too, uh, comprehensive
about it, but you know, we're,as we're recording this, we're a
day away from an election in acountry that has been polarized
beyond belief.
Um, and I think one thing thatwe've lost the capacity to do as
(16:20):
a nation is view the world fromsomebody else's perspective
other than our own.
And this movie really stands outto me that it, it is able to de
take the biblical story likeHosea and flip it on its head.
And the perspective that youguys came at this, with that you
all came at this with, um, wasone rather than from looking up
(16:45):
from looking down from upon highyour, in the muck of it, right.
You're, you're, you're not,you're not, um, on a pedestal
saying that you need to come uphere to this sacred, Holy place,
you're viewing the world andsaying, this is the world down
here in this secular messyplace.
Um, and so I don't know if youcould comment a little bit about
(17:08):
this idea that, that, thatthings happen in the real world,
in this secular world.
And we have to, we have tounderstand that and see things
from all of those perspectives.
Speaker 6 (17:21):
First of all, it's awesome relief to know you love
the movie.
Um, it's always a little nervewracking to come on these
podcasts cause we, you know,we're not sure if we're just
gonna find out that we're hereso you can tell us what was
wrong with it.
Thank you for watching it.
It's very meaningful to us.
Um, yeah, I think you hit thenail on the head, as you were
talking.
It was reminded me of a Henrynow and quote that I really love
(17:42):
that now and said, um, I'mprobably going to butcher this a
little bit, but for thecompassionate person, nothing
human is alien.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
And I, when, when I think about, uh, Kate, the Gomer
character in our film, one ofthe desires we had early on was
to invite the audience into acompassionate position, um, when
they, when they think about theGomer character and Gomer as an
archetype for ourselves or forother people in our lives.
(18:12):
But I think it's very easy totalk specifically about
trafficking or prostitution.
It's very easy for peopleoutside of that system to look
in on it and judge it and sortof say like, you know, I think
we might have a, uh, an innatepicture of prostitution in kind
of a Richard Gere, pretty woman,Julia Roberts sort of way.
(18:32):
And we just expect people tostop doing a thing that they
shouldn't do withoutunderstanding the on-ramp that
people who are traffickedexperience.
Oftentimes they, um, theirtraffic tickets as miners, their
kids, um, oftentimes poverty andsubstance abuse and sexual abuse
are a part of their experience.
(18:54):
And so when we understand thatwhen you talk with organizations
that work in trafficking and youkind of hear those stories, it
completely transforms how youthink about people who are
experiencing a version of thatkind of life.
And I think that then transformshow we think even about the
text, even how we think aboutscripture and what it means to
us, um, how we think about, uh,subjects like love and identity
(19:17):
and forgiveness and redemption.
So, um, w for specifically forthis story of Hosea, we do think
that there's a meaning to beunpacked from the text, but also
from the film when we're invitedto see it from a different
perspective.
And I would love to just geekout and talk about arrested
development for the rest of thetime.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, I think that's great.
Uh, you know, one of thepremises of, of our podcast, we
often quote Madeline Lingle.
There is nothing so secular thatit cannot be sacred.
And I was really struck by aquote that I discovered, I think
it was from me, Ryan, you sayover time, you know, people in
our most important stories, uh,slowly turn into what you call
(20:00):
flat abstractions of aparticular idea that a faith
community wants to depict andthey stopped being real people
at that point.
And you say the implicit dangerthen becomes we stopped seeing
ourselves in them.
And I think that's part of whatis so powerful about seeing this
through what you all have calledthe forgotten story or the
(20:21):
forgotten female story in this.
And thinking about Gomer, almostbeing depicted as more of a
prop, which I think you all havetalked about as well.
I remember the great PhyllisTrible old Testament scholar who
talked about, you know, theserpent, uh, in the Adam and Eve
story, being a rhetorical adviceto a re rhetorical device,
(20:43):
rather to get to kind of themain point of the story.
So when you're telling the storythrough Gomez point of view, uh,
and getting at that subversivenarrative, I'm just kind of
curious in this might be a morebasic question, but what drew
each of you to Gomer story, uh,especially that again is, uh,
(21:03):
David mentioned, it's sort ofturning the story upside down a
little bit on its head to kindof see through this, this raw
humanity, this, this raw lens ina way that we, you know, we
really don't get in Sundayschool or don't get in this
sanitized version of, of what,how the church tells the story.
So what, what kind of drew eachof you to that subversive point
(21:26):
of view, uh, to, to really seethis through Kate's eyes or
through Gomorrah's eyes?
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Well, I feel like, I feel like for me, I mean, again,
we talked about, you know, thefact that we don't get to hear
this story.
I mean, not only do we not hearGomer story, like we often
don't, I know I had never, even,I kind of glossed over the fact
that she went back into a life,you know, like it was like, God
(21:57):
say this, you know, prostitute,and then, you know, humanity
would say, it's like, she wentback, you know, what was that
about?
And I think that that wassomething, um, that struck me
about the, about the scriptabout the film is that, you
know, to, to Ryan's point, youknow, no one it's it's, it's
(22:19):
just never that black and whitethat I just want to go back into
this life, you know, that, youknow, was potentially hurtful.
Like nobody just makes thatdecision to just, just give up
everything and go back.
It's not that simple.
Um, so I think for me, what drewme about this story was that w
(22:40):
was really that piece of it.
Um, you know, like I said, notonly have we never heard her
story, but that part w we notonly have, we never heard her
story, but even in the storythat we do tell we kind of gloss
over that part of her going backinto that life.
Um, and I was just, you know, Ithink so much of this movie is,
(23:04):
is about what caused thatdecision and what was, you know,
what happened as a result ofthat decision and so on and so
forth.
Um, and I just found that to bereally, really interesting and
fascinating and worth exploring.
Yeah.
And I think, I mean, this isreally tough to do and to retell
our story because we don't knowher story.
(23:25):
There's nothing in the, in thisHosanna story in the Bible, she
doesn't speak.
So we don't even have anopportunity to know what she was
thinking.
And like Ryan's talked about inApril, I was like, this is a
real person who, for somereason, they didn't give her an
opportunity, whoever, you know,they didn't talk about what she
was feeling and thinking.
And it
Speaker 5 (23:46):
Seems like she was sort of was used as a prop or
the way we retell it.
She's often used as a prop.
And so I was just interested,like, like April said earlier
too, I mean, so much is toldfrom the male point of view and
the Bible, and there's so manymale, um, stories, but it's
like, there's a lot of femalesthere too.
We just don't hear theirperspective.
And I just thought, I think itwould be really interesting
(24:08):
neighbor already touched onthis.
And so to Ryan is like, what,why did she make the decisions
that she made?
Because this is a real person.
And when we were making, or whenwe made the movie and we were
doing like our first sort ofrough screenings of the first
cut, uh, in one of ourscreenings, uh, there was a
little bit of a debate over sortof some of the decisions she
(24:28):
makes because somebody feltlike, well, I don't think that
some that she wouldn't reallydo, like nobody would actually
like do that.
They would never really go back,you know, to the pump.
And then we had someone else whowas at the screening, who April,
who was it, someone that dealtwith?
Um, it was a psychologist,right?
Who works with women who weretrafficked and she's like, no,
(24:50):
this is exactly what wouldhappen.
And so I think that'sinteresting because we love to
make assumptions about whypeople do the things they do in,
unless we put ourselves in theirplace, we'll never really
understand.
And so that's what we weretrying to do and what I was
interested in, why I was drawnto the Gomer character.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
I was just going to say, uh, for me, there is an
element, uh, of coming to thetext that the exit Jesus of the
text reminded me a little bit ofthat exercise of being an actor.
The actors come to roles and areimmediately interested in trying
to put flesh on a role.
So actors are asking questionslike, does this person speak
with an accent?
Do they walk with a limp?
(25:29):
And that reminded me of a, aGreek class that I had early in
college, where I was for thefirst time introduced to the
idea of the search for thehistorical Jesus.
And this Greek professor said hewas sort of inviting us to think
about, uh, Christ as a humanbeing who walked the dusty
streets.
And he said maybe Christ wasballed.
Maybe he walked with a limp.
And that was just blew my mindbecause I knew that that was not
(25:52):
possible based on lots of imagesI had seen in my Sunday school
classes growing up.
Right.
Um, but it was it that was veryformative to me.
And I started wanting toapproach each of these stories,
wondering, uh, when you start toput flesh back on these people,
how does it transform the way,not just that you think about
them, but the way you thinkabout the themes that we are
supposed to be thinking aboutmore broadly about the text, for
(26:14):
example, specifically in thisstory, what is, uh, what does
saving look like?
What does salvation look like?
It's very easy to read a textand sort of think that, you
know, especially for me in theposition I'm in, I know what
this person being saved lookslike.
And I think for Gomer, for aperson who is actually inside
(26:37):
the experience, especially apainful one, someone stepping in
and kind of a, you know, asuperhero sort of way of being
like, I'm here to save you withjust the love of a good man, um,
strikes false, like that isfalse for a person inside the
space of that pain.
Uh, so it really made me want tothink about and hear what her
(26:58):
story might've been like, whichmeans, uh, to Suzanne's point,
listening to the stories ofactual women present day, um,
who are, who are, or who havebeen in the midst of these
experiences and hearing whattheir, their stories were like.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, that was actually one of my questions.
And you're already getting atthat, but when you, I love the
way you said that, how you putflesh on a character who, you
know, so much, we don't knowabout her story, but I was kind
of curious about what sort ofhomework or research that you
had to do to build out Kate'scharacter and you know, who did
you talk to?
How did you, uh, what did youfind out through that process of
(27:38):
really building out the humanityof her character, whether it's
interviews or some of the thingsyou already have alluded to?
Speaker 4 (27:44):
Yeah.
I'm working with severalorganizations, especially here
in Los Angeles who work inanti-trafficking space and
hearing direct stories fromwomen.
Who've experienced this.
And as I mentioned earlier, youstart to hear through lines.
I mean, it's important to saythat, you know, this is a
fictional depiction of a womannamed Kate, and this is not at
all to say, this is what allhuman trafficking situations
(28:06):
are.
Like.
It's not, there's a whole broadexperience, um, for people who
have come through these kinds of, uh, traumas, but hearing this,
hearing the stories of manywomen over a period of time,
especially through thoseorganizations, allowed us to
sort of catch a lot ofcommonalities.
(28:27):
And like I mentioned before,those are often that, um, it
begins early, a really commonversion of this story is someone
to say, I was 12, 13, 14.
I didn't have a great home life.
You know, um, I spent a lot oftime say at the mall and an
older guy, he was probably 18 or19 showed interest in me.
(28:48):
I remember one specific woman'sstory.
She told a very, very cleardepiction of like being in the
food court and this guy comingup and being super sweet and
just showing interest in her ina way that a man never had.
And they just started dating.
And over the course of time, thelove and care and affection of
that relationship becamecommodified, became commodified
(29:09):
to gift giving and then becamecommodified to now, if you do
other things for other people,that will be the, the, um,
criteria by which I willcontinue to show you love and
affection.
And, um, when you hear someonetelling that story and the, you
know, the, the way that, um,sexual abuse and substance abuse
and poverty get woven into thatover a long period of time, uh,
(29:31):
you, you realize like this, thisis not someone waking up at the
age of 18 or 20 some day, andjust deciding to go down to the
street corner.
Like, that's just not how thesestories
Speaker 5 (29:42):
Work.
So hearing the commonality ofthe stories is really the main
homework to being able to writea character like him.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
My background is in music and that's what my life
has been dedicated to as an artform.
And I've often said that Iadmire film and consider it
built.
Filmmaking is like the pinnacleof human artistic achievement
because of the way it combinesvirtually every known form of
(30:13):
art that humanity has, you know,from, from music to acting, to
costume, to the visualcomponents of cinematography, to
storytelling.
It's just so comprehensive andholistic, um, twofold here.
One, I'm curious from aproduction standpoint, we have
(30:34):
two, the two producers here.
Um, what does that look likewhen you're creating a film
combining all of these myriad ofartistic elements in to within
the movie?
Um, you clearly highlighted thesignificance of human creativity
and creative expression at thecore of, of kind of all that is
(30:58):
good, even within what we viewas bad.
The character Kate, um, is, uh,is an amateur photographer,
perhaps more than that.
And, uh, to me that was one ofthe really satisfying components
of it.
That's how you brought to life,the goodness in her soul from a,
from a film perspective, but sosort of two aspects here from a
(31:19):
production standpoint, what's itlike to put all these things
together and, and to from withinthe movie, you highlighting the
significance of creativeexpression.
Um, uh, what, why is thatimportant?
Speaker 5 (31:31):
Uh, all of those elements together is a tornado.
If you're, if you produce it'scause you like the craziness,
like I actually miss production.
I think I'm the only one that'slike, I wish we could go back to
production.
Like I like a million thingsgoing on at once and having to
make decisions.
And it was, I mean, there was alot of work and thought on the
(31:53):
front end of that, you know,before you go into production,
obviously, and your Ryan's theone who wrote this script.
So he had all these things inmind and then you just
producer's job is to put allthose puzzle pieces together.
So leading up to it, it's crazyand it's hectic, but it's a lot
of fun to hire people who thisis their, you know, for art
production, this is theirexpertise.
(32:14):
This person is like, this iswhat they're really good at.
And to oversee all of thosethings.
And Ryan was heavily involved inall of this with us.
And, um, it was, it was honestlyfun.
It was, that was a fun part isseeing all those puzzle pieces
come together.
And then as far as your secondquestion, I mean, you write what
you know, and Ryan is an amateurphotographer.
(32:36):
That was his camera that shecarries in the movie.
Oh, cool.
Speaker 6 (32:41):
It was, uh, there's a lot of, uh, Ryan and Kate, so,
um, but yeah, I mean, it was, itwas just a lot of, this was so
much fun, so much fun on when wegot to actually be in production
and get to that point.
And then on the, uh, on thebackend of the music or having
Gungar score, the movie was justlike the icing on the cake.
(33:02):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
I mean, to your point about thescore, it definitely, um, took
off once we, especially that,you know, without giving
anything away, the final momentI'll say, um, was just, was
really impactful.
I mean, I feel like in terms ofthe pieces coming together, I,
(33:23):
um, I really felt like there's,you know, we were doing, we're
doing this film that has thiskind of weight to it and like
this heaviness to it, and, youknow, all that Suzanne, that,
that word is like such a perfectword of the tornado.
Um, of just all of theseelements, you know, sort of
(33:45):
coming together and all ofthese, all of these elements
kind of spiraling at the sametime.
I mean, I, I think about, youknow, are just, you know, even
the weight of our production, itwas weird shooting in the middle
of winter in Oklahoma, it wasfreezing cold.
Well, it was, it was, it wasburning pot the first day of
(34:06):
production, but then thetemperature belonged know
plummeted, uh, down to like 30degrees, you know, the next day.
So there was a lot, you know,even just in the atmosphere of
creating this film that I think,you know, just help contribute,
um, in terms of those piecescoming together and having to
(34:27):
work around all of thoseelements and, and figure it out
and still keep the crew andstill keep the cast, you know,
excited and, and, um,comfortable, um, was, was
another part of that, thatelement of producing the film,
um, especially in light of whatwe were doing in light of the
subject matter that we were,that we were trying to tackle
Speaker 4 (34:48):
When we think about intact inside the movie itself,
um, you know, for me invitingpeople to bring, uh, the Imago
DEI back to the Gomer character.
So to think about the image ofGod inside the character of Kate
, uh, I think of that as the actof creating that in as much as
God is creator for us to beinvited to the act of creating a
(35:12):
, to have Kate do that.
And for us to, as the audienceto enjoy watching her create
really helps, um, restore thatin her as a character.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, there's a character in the movie, Andrew,
who's a curator of an artgallery.
I fell in love with him.
He was, he was great.
And he's sort of a pseudoadvocate for the goodness within
Kate's, uh, spirit and soul andcharacter.
Cause, uh, he, he's the one whosays, you know, you're actually
really good at this.
(35:41):
And, uh, th those parts of themovie were really, it helped for
me balanced the whole experienceout.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
He's one of the only care, one of the only men who
don't commodify or try to changeher, right.
He's such an importantcharacter.
And he was our moments of levityin the movie, which you
definitely need in this kind ofmovie.
And I just, he's a friend ofours.
So it was really fun to see himcome and play this character
because that's not really whathe's like, obviously he's not
(36:07):
Andrew, but it's just so muchfun.
And then he and Camille, uh, sothe Kate and Andrew character,
they just, they didn't meetuntil, I mean, like minutes
before they were shooting theirscene and they just immediately
had this sort of connection andcharisma together.
So it was, it was cool to get tosee them shoot those scenes.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
That's great.
Beautifully said.
I D I think, uh, David and Ihave sort of a similar question
about this, but, you know, oneof the things that was just so
striking to me and so impressiveis that when you take such a
core biblical story, like theHosea story, and you have
re-imagined it and recast it theway you have, you know, to do
(36:48):
that in a way that isn't sort of, uh, uh, you know, I'm a
pastor, so I can say this likeChristian malarkey, right.
I read that you're like yousaid, trying to proselytize at H
how do you create a film that isso simple, you know, so
centrally, biblical in terms ofthe core narrative and do that
in a way that is so beautifullyand radically, uh, human.
(37:13):
And to me, you've done that.
And it's sort of made me askwhat is a Christian film anyway.
And I think David, you have alittle bit more of a nuanced way
to ask that again, being with abackground in music, I thinking
like the artist Sufi on Stephensis, um, without question, he's a
professor Christian, his faithin narratives of theology and
(37:36):
Christianity are all over hismusic, but he's not playing at
the Colorado Rockies faith day,right.
He's not considered really byalmost anyone to be a Christian
artist.
And yet all of this stuff is soomnipresent in its impact and to
the listener.
And I kind of felt a similar waywith how you guys, how you all,
(37:56):
I'm sorry.
I keep saying you guys, how youall did this movie and, and I
was impressed.
And wondering if that wasintentional front and center for
your goals, um, that it would,that it would come across to
everyone rather than just aselect group of people.
Speaker 4 (38:16):
Yup.
Well, I think, um, it's veryimportant to point out that, you
know, with movies, there are somany people involved.
Um, and, uh, my, my particularworldview, my, and my faith, um,
are not indicative at all ofother peoples involved in the
film.
There are lots of people whowere intricate parts of this
(38:39):
movie that don't considerthemselves people of faith.
And for me to kind of make themovie be a thing for me,
wouldn't be faithful to theirparticipation in it.
So I think it's really importantto recognize that element first.
Um, and then, you know,additionally, I think, uh, when
(39:01):
we take a story and control itin order to do something for us,
it probably is not a good storyat that point.
Um, and it's really easy foraudiences to assume that the
goal of the movie is to affirmtheir beliefs or to proselytize
people, right.
And, uh, we are not interestedin that.
(39:21):
And we, what we are interestedin is a story that creates space
and a good story is justentering into a space where, uh,
in order for, for a moment ofgrace.
And I don't mean thatspecifically in a Christian way,
uh, a moment of grace redemptionto happen there, there has to be
(39:42):
an experience of loss of thatgrace of pain of need.
And the storyteller has to beable to invite the audience to
walk through that, that need,and that experience of pain in
order to eventually arrive atthe place of grace and
redemption.
And so I think if, if that'sjust the goal of what a story is
(40:02):
doing, that it doesn't mean thatit's it.
I believe that it, God is inthat space, but it doesn't mean
that it's a Christian movie,that terminology by the way, is
really problematic.
Um, there's been some greatwriting on, uh, one of my
favorite articles is written bya writer named Melissa
Wilkinson, where she talks abouta movie cannot take the
Eucharist, therefore it can notbe Christian.
(40:23):
Uh, and it's, it's reallyproblematic for us to call.
Um, I understand why we do it.
It's a functional term.
Why we say faith-based films,why we say Christian films, but
a film can not be Christian.
If film cannot believe inChrist, the film can tell a
story and then it can be a wayfor us to talk about God in the
world.
Um, I'm going a lot again, Iknow in April you have some, um,
(40:45):
you've thought about this a lot,especially in terms of gin,
right?
Speaker 6 (40:48):
I've always kind of found our sort of definition of
Christian or what's like calledthe Christian film.
And I've, I've wrestled withthat for a long time and have
found it to be, you know,somewhat problematic.
And, you know, maybe some ofthat is because early on, you
(41:08):
know, I, I grew up in church,but I grew up in a church that
was very, um, you know, uh, I'llput it this way.
Like, I didn't really hear ofthat term Christian film until I
was much older.
And that's just, wasn't the lensthat the faith tradition that I
grew up in that just wasn't alens that we saw things through.
(41:30):
Um, we saw art as something thatwas, um, you know, healing and
for a community.
And what that meant was that thecommunity, you know, helps
define how we, you know,interpret and, um, embrace a
piece of art.
(41:51):
Um, and then, you know, throughthat looking at, where do we
see, sorry, where do we see Godin?
That was kind of a differentapproach?
I think.
Um, so I, yeah, I've always kindof found that definition that I
should say the standard, youknow, industry definition of
Christian film to beproblematic.
(42:13):
Um, especially because, youknow, most times, uh, Christian
film is also synonymous withfamily friendly when, you know,
and, and there's, there's thatwhole aspect of it too.
And again, when I read theBible, I'm like, there's some
hardcore stuff going on theBible, like all of this can't be
(42:33):
family-friendly in that sense,you know,
Speaker 4 (42:35):
We should probably point out that Jose is rated R
that's a good point.
Like stories like Noah, by theway, you guys, a lot of people
died in that story.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:54):
There, there, you know, some horrific things
happened.
Um, and I think when we, youknow, I could go on and on as
well, but I think when we, whenwe start to go us over that, we
lose the very point of thegospel.
You know, it's like Jesus comesto us in the midst of some very
(43:17):
nasty, terrible thing.
And Jesus comes in the midst ofthat and says, I've come to
bring you light life, you know,and that more abundantly.
And so it's like, when we missthe, like the dirt, then it's
like the, then, then the pointof God and of Jesus and the
light, it does it like what youdon't get the same impact on
(43:39):
that.
I don't think so.
The, that whole idea ofChristian film, um, you know,
part of the reason why I wasinto this project was because we
were kind of looking to sort ofstep away from that.
Speaker 5 (43:52):
Yeah.
Cause it's like the, theinspiration came from this
narrative, but it was nevermeant to be a Christian film,
you know, it was meant to be,and I think it is a movie for
the masses for bigger, for abigger audience.
And that was in your question.
So good David, because it washard through the years of like,
how do we walk this line?
Because this is going to, if wecall it Hosea, people are going
(44:15):
to have an idea of what thismovie is about, but it's
probably not that.
So do we call it something outand it'll be just like, it was,
this was really, really tough.
And in the end, I'm super proudof what we have and these kinds
of conversations that we'rewe're having.
But, um, but yeah, I just thatthe title
Speaker 4 (44:32):
A lot that was a long road of us really work,
struggling with the title forexactly Suzanne's point.
The, the risk is that you callit Jose and people think they
know what it is.
Um, but at least they understandthe connection, the biblical
story.
But if you don't call it Hosea,because of the way we told the
story, there might be a lot ofpeople who just watch it and
(44:53):
never understand the biblicalconnection.
And we think if that happens,then there's a layer to the
conversation of the film thatthey would be missing.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah.
Andrew and I had that exactconversation, um, that I think
most people wouldn't know that,and it might make it a little
bit more difficult to tow theline, but it adds a layer of
complexity and depth to thestory and to the film that's
just really admirable.
And I think everything that youhave been saying, especially in
this last little bit here iswhat, what, what cause us to
(45:24):
create this, this podcast calledhyphenated life, trying to break
down some of those expectationsand barriers and, and have the
nimbleness and, and empathy tosee the world from another
perspective.
And I want to thank you eachSuzanne, Avril, Ryan, um,
producers and writer, directorof the film, Hosea for being on
(45:45):
hyphenated life with us today.
I know we're just about to ourtime here.
So, um, I wanted to see if youcould go ahead and, and tell our
listeners the best way that theycan watch your film.
Hosea
Speaker 4 (45:58):
Jose is available on iTunes, Apple TV, Amazon prime
video, or Google play.
You can rent or buy the movie onthose four platforms.
And we also have a discussionguide, which is a companion
piece to the movie that isamazing.
We take a deeper dive into ourthemes.
So I highly recommend you checkout.
Our website has afm.com,
Speaker 2 (46:20):
But everybody listening, watch the Hosea film,
watch it with friends and Ryanand Suzanne and Avril.
Thank you again for joining usfor hyphenated life today.
What an extraordinary movieyou've made.
And, uh, we are all more fullyhuman because of it.
And, uh, we're so grateful foryour artistic savvy and sharing
(46:40):
your time with us today.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (46:41):
Oh my goodness.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
[inaudible]
Speaker 2 (46:53):
If is a production of pine street church in Boulder,
Colorado hosted by AndrewDoherty and David longed.
You,
Speaker 3 (46:59):
The podcast is produced by Phil Norman and
executive producer, Alexi Moldenspecial thanks to our guests
today and the LEL Hill trust of[inaudible].
Speaker 7 (47:34):
This episode is brought to you by the taco
wagon.
Maybe we can get free breakfastfor you guys.
If you're a burrito and you werestarving, would you eat
yourself?
(47:59):
Uh, don't jerk me around onthis.
It's a simple yes or noquestion.
Whereas she says toward the end, there's good
inside of me.
Not later when I'm fixed rightnow, I'm good.
That's hopeful.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
One of the things that they, they show there is
that, um, you know, you do haveinherent good goodness within
you and, and you don't have tobe fixed.
And in fact, you can't be fixed.
So someone waiting on you to befixed, to give you their
unconditional love or to thinkthat they can fix you.
(00:28):
Um, there are fallacies, youknow, and it's that, that sort
of sacred versus secular thatdoesn't exist.
Let's all come down here to thelevel playing field,
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Welcome to hyphenated life.
This is Andrew Dardy, along withI'm David[inaudible].
We're here today with the writerand director of Hosea, the film
along with two producers,Suzanne and Avril for a great
conversation on a fairlyextraordinary film.
It's, it's very unique in thesense that it's, it's really a,
(00:59):
uh, uh, a full narrative of acore Hebrew Bible story, the
prophet Hosea, uh, part of, oneof the, what they call 12 minor
prophets in the old Testament.
But this movie is aboutrecasting and retelling that
ancient story about, uh, theprophet Hosea and Gomer and
(01:21):
unpacks the background of all ofthat story and, and very raw and
real, uh, and human ways.
And, um, all of these questionsabout relationships and faith
and redemption and self worthand self love.
All of those huge themes arespotlighted in Hosea.
(01:41):
And it's amazing to me that, youknow, a book like Hosea in the
old Testament, that's not reallywell known.
I was just kind of thinking it'snot, Jose is not a natural, at
least in my experience, anatural, uh, Bible story to
explore and study it doesn'tcome up that often.
And, you know, if you're achurch nerd in the church
(02:01):
lectionary calendar, we don'tread from Hosea very often,
maybe a couple of times over athree-year period or so.
So it's very interesting thatthis story has bubbled up for
Ryan Dobson, the writer anddirector, uh, and making a film
about, um, a story that has suchcore themes of, of love and
(02:24):
forgiveness and perseverance.
Yeah.
I don't think, uh,
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Top 10 most Googled books of the old Testament,
probably.
You're not going to probably hiton Jose on anybody's top 10 list
.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
And, uh,
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Interesting to me that they titled the movie Hosea
just like the book in the oldTestament, but the main
character isn't Hosea has itit's it's Henry it's well, Henry
is, is the equivalent of Hosea.
But the story is in this movieis told from the perspective of
Kate, who is the biblicalstories, equivalent of Gomer,
(03:02):
exactly.
Which is flipped upside down orat least backwards.
Um, and I think that for me,changed everything, right?
It, it, you go from theprotagonist being this male
salvation figure Hosea to we'reseeing this story told through
(03:23):
the eyes of, of, it's not, Idon't want to say it's the
antagonist in the biblicalstory, but, um, it's, it's not,
it's not the good guy, right?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Right.
No, it's told through the eyesof what, uh, the director Ryan
Dobson's called the forgottenfemale character, which is Kate,
uh, uh, the Gomer equivalent inthe old Testament story.
And it has been told by two ofthe world's biggest faith
traditions.
You look at Judaism andChristianity as a metaphor for
love and forgiveness.
(03:55):
Uh, but it's also been usedthroughout history to, uh, for,
for difficult things likesubjugating women.
Uh, it's been used to justifyspousal abuse or to blame
victims of violence and sextrafficking as though their own
very painful experiences wheretheir own fault.
So this film offers analternative and, uh, to that a
(04:16):
more redemptive version of thisancient story.
And it's interesting becauseit's such a subversive narrative
in a certain way, because whenyou read the book of Hosea or,
you know, lessons we havelearned from that, whether
through the church, mainlythrough the church, I guess if
you're familiar with that story,it really is through the eyes of
Hosea, which allegoricallyHosea.
(04:38):
If we want to put it in simpleterms, Jose has God, Gomer is
representative of Israel orhumanity, which Kate is.
And so we're seeing this storythrough the eyes of real raw
humanity through Kate'scharacter.
And I think a lot of this too,is, uh, subverting a severe
patriarchy that we get from alot of biblical stories.
(05:01):
And so we look at this storythrough her own eyes, through
her own journey, with substanceabuse, with, uh, a lot of
messiness of love and addiction,uh, and her journey to find
self-worth.
And self-acceptance through allof that.
It is a very different angle ofvision than what, uh, we are,
(05:23):
you know, taught in the churchabout the dominant narrative of
Hosea, which I think makes
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Extra intriguing, welcome to hyphenated life,
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Invite you to join us on this journey, to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
become more fully alive.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
[inaudible]
Speaker 1 (06:04):
We're so happy today to have the writer and director
and two producers for the filmHosea with us on hyphenated
life.
And I'd love to introduce, uh,Ryan Daniel Dobson.
He's a filmmaker based in LosAngeles.
He is the writer director of thefeature film Hosea, the founder
of revived transformed vintageclothing and producer writer of
(06:26):
the narrative podcast.
The thicket after studyingtheology in college, Ryan turned
his attention to theentertainment industry with a
focus on marrying theologicaland philosophical concepts to
powerful visual storytelling andan in addition to the film
Hosea, which we're talking abouttoday, Ryan has written and
directed several award-winningshort films featured at
(06:48):
festivals around the world, Ryandental, Dobson, welcome to
hyphenated life today.
Oh my goodness.
Thanks for having me.
That's quiet.
And just like to start mostmornings this way.
This is great.
Nice.
Yeah, very good.
We're also joined today bySuzanne Watson.
Suzanne began her career in thelive special events world where
she planned and produce majorevents all over the United
(07:10):
States, including the Superbowl,what presidential inaugural ball
college bowl games in thepresident's cup shortly after
moving to Los Angeles, Susannecombined her love for the
entertainment industry andexperience in live event
production to producing films.
And she has produced severalaward-winning short films, and
most recently returned to theNapa Valley fem film festival
(07:32):
with her feature Hosea, againthat we're talking about today,
that wasn't the jury award forbest verge performance
recognition way to go, Suzanne.
That's awesome.
Welcome to hyphenated life.
Thank you.
It's so good to be here and lastbut not least Avril speaks is
also joining us today.
We have a whole small group ofpeople on our, on our call.
(07:56):
April has been carving out herpath as a bold, innovative
content creator for severalyears, not only as a producer
and director, but also duringher days as a former professor
at the distinguished Howarduniversity, she produced the
award-winning film, Jen, whichpremiered in narrative
competition at South bySouthwest and one special Jerry
(08:17):
recognition for riding.
Uh, she also gained, uh, well,the film Jenn gained
distribution through MGM Orionclassics and continues to be
seen throughout the world.
Avril has also produced severalfilms, including Hosea, which
we're talking about today in theSouth African film, African
America and the comedy Dottieand soul April has coordinated
(08:40):
international film educationprograms, such as global media
makers and the inauguralHollywood foreign press
association filmmaker residency.
She is a contributing writer forDeere producer.com and has also
directed feature films, theround table and the
award-winning sophisticatedromance.
April speaks welcome tohyphenated life to you.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Well, thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
So my goodness, uh, Hosea the film as a pastor here
in Boulder, Colorado at pinestreet church, I have just been
thinking about, you know, howinfrequently the Hosea narrative
comes up, even for all thechurch nerds listening in the
lectionary, which we generallyfollow here at pine street
(09:27):
church in Boulder, howinfrequently the Hosea
narratives come up forliturgical worship.
And so, uh, it is, uh, just apowerful retelling of this
ancient story of Hosea, one ofthe 12 minor prophets in the old
Testament for those who don'tknow, but this is through the
eyes of what you all havedescribed as the forgotten
(09:48):
female character of Gomer andthat character's name is Kate
and the film Hosea.
So I just sorta wanted to startwith, with any of you and all of
you of what inspired you to makethis film.
And how did you pick Hosea, uh,to, to do that?
Speaker 4 (10:08):
I'm fascinated by your point that, uh, Hosea
doesn't come up very often, uh,in the lectionary or used in
churches.
I wonder why that is.
Why are we scared by this text?
You guys, um, I, uh, I, all ofus have kind of slightly
different versions though withsimilar stories about how we
came to this idea in this film.
(10:29):
Um, but generally it was becauseI think all of us having grown
up in faith spaces have heard aversion of this story being used
that as we became adults, didn'tflush with how we understood
human beings to operate.
So by that, I mean, for me, Iwas going to a Christian
university in Oklahoma where wewere required to go to chapel.
(10:50):
And, uh, as part of one of thoseservices, this text was preached
on in a way that I recognizedfrom my childhood, uh, where
this person Hosea this prophetwas meant to represent God.
And so even just the way thatthat person then gets talked
about from the pulpit oftentimesis like, he was probably a great
father and had to be a fantastichusband because of course that's
(11:12):
what he was like if herepresents God in this
allegorical story.
And then conversely, the personof Gomer, um, almost takes on
this mantle of like originalsin, you know, the Freudian is
she just, uh, sort of wandersaround the world by her
appetites.
And, um, there's one specificpoint in the sermon where, uh,
(11:33):
the, the person said the personpreaching said that Gomer, um,
left her, her children.
The story says, the biblicalstory says she has that they
have three kids together.
She leaves her family and goesto sell her body for sex.
And I remember for the firsttime as a growing human being
going, wait a minute, thatdoesn't sound like, uh, the way
(11:53):
a logical person operates.
Like if you have a home in amarriage and three kids and you
make the decision to leave allthat, you probably have a series
of reasons for that kind ofdecision.
And so for me, that was the seedof just starting to, um, think
and percolate on this idea of,well, how are we sanitizing this
story and what are we losing bydoing that?
(12:16):
Uh, and that just began the longjourney of wanting to take a
look at this story, specificallythe character of Gomer and think
about what, what her life wouldhave had to have been like in
order for the decisions thatscripture says she makes to have
made sense.
Uh, and I think Suzanne, you,you had a similar kind of desire
to approach Gomer because of a
Speaker 5 (12:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was thinking about it thismorning, Andrew, like what you
said is I don't actually thinkgrowing.
I mean, I grew up in the church.
I don't remember hearing thestory of Hosea really ever as it
as a kid, it was really like inmy late probably teens, early
twenties, I was reading a bookand it was sort of a retelling
of that, um, of the Hoseastories.
(13:00):
That's the first time I reallyremember understanding it or
hearing about it.
And that was the first seed thatwas planted in my mind of, okay,
this is a really interestingstory.
Uh, but I, I wonder what thiswould look like if it was
re-imagined in a modern daysetting in a real authentic way
with characters that are maybelike us or people we know, like,
what would that look like?
(13:22):
Because it wouldn't be PG and itwould be hard and uncomfortable,
but I think it would beimportant to tell.
And that was sort of the firstseed that was planted for me.
And then years later, uh, Ryan,I had been friends for a long
time and we both mutually, wetold a mutual friend the same
thing separately about uswanting to do this story.
And so that's sort of how thewhole thing got started is the
(13:43):
two of us met at a coffee shopon a Saturday morning and said,
let's, let's try it.
Let's make this movie.
And they gave each other a hugand a lot of meetings started
and then we met April and that,and then the trio was formed.
Speaker 6 (14:02):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, I think I'msimilar to Suzanne.
I don't, I maybe, I don'tremember Jose of being like on
the top of a list of sermonsgrowing up.
Um, but I do remember, you know,there, there are several other
stories in the Bible wherealways feeling like, you know,
the women kind of the women inthe story kind of gets lost.
(14:22):
And I remember, you know,sitting in church, listening to,
you know, Jacob and Leah is onethat comes to mind where I'm
always just like, I should sayJacob and Rachel, cause it's
always preached about Jacob andRachel, nobody ever talks about
Leah, you know?
And so I've always had instanceslike that where I'm always kind
of thinking about what aboutthis woman over here that, you
know, they just kind of left outof this story she's in there and
(14:44):
we kind of read the line, butyou know, we don't really talk
about, so for me, uh, I met, uh,Ryan and Suzanne, um, actually
right after I finished filminggin and was kind of in this
space of, you know, doing filmsthat, uh, reflect, you know,
spirituality and that arelooking at spirituality and
faith in really interestingways.
(15:07):
And so for me reading thisscript was kind of in that same
vein of, uh, of asking thosequestions about the women that
we read about in the Bible.
Um, so it was, you know, it wassuch a well-written script and,
you know, the fact that it wascoming from the perspective of
Gomer was something that, um, Ifelt we hadn't seen before, um,
(15:29):
and fit in my narrative of, of,of constantly asking these
questions in my head.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Three of you just talked about this concept of
perspective.
Uh, that was one of the thingsthat really jumped out to me on
a lighter note.
I remember the last episode lastseason of the series arrested
development was like sixepisodes.
And every single one was toldfrom a different character's
perspective.
And it was amazing how the samestory from six different
perspectives was six differentstories.
(15:57):
You know what I mean?
We all understand thatbasically.
Um, but to see it played out onfilm, uh, as what we saw here
and, and I, you know, not to gettoo, too, uh, comprehensive
about it, but you know, we're,as we're recording this, we're a
day away from an election in acountry that has been polarized
beyond belief.
Um, and I think one thing thatwe've lost the capacity to do as
(16:20):
a nation is view the world fromsomebody else's perspective
other than our own.
And this movie really stands outto me that it, it is able to de
take the biblical story likeHosea and flip it on its head.
And the perspective that youguys came at this, with that you
all came at this with, um, wasone rather than from looking up
(16:45):
from looking down from upon highyour, in the muck of it, right.
You're, you're, you're not,you're not, um, on a pedestal
saying that you need to come uphere to this sacred, Holy place,
you're viewing the world andsaying, this is the world down
here in this secular messyplace.
Um, and so I don't know if youcould comment a little bit about
(17:08):
this idea that, that, thatthings happen in the real world,
in this secular world.
And we have to, we have tounderstand that and see things
from all of those perspectives.
Speaker 6 (17:21):
First of all, it's awesome relief to know you love
the movie.
Um, it's always a little nervewracking to come on these
podcasts cause we, you know,we're not sure if we're just
gonna find out that we're hereso you can tell us what was
wrong with it.
Thank you for watching it.
It's very meaningful to us.
Um, yeah, I think you hit thenail on the head, as you were
talking.
It was reminded me of a Henrynow and quote that I really love
(17:42):
that now and said, um, I'mprobably going to butcher this a
little bit, but for thecompassionate person, nothing
human is alien.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
And I, when, when I think about, uh, Kate, the Gomer
character in our film, one ofthe desires we had early on was
to invite the audience into acompassionate position, um, when
they, when they think about theGomer character and Gomer as an
archetype for ourselves or forother people in our lives.
(18:12):
But I think it's very easy totalk specifically about
trafficking or prostitution.
It's very easy for peopleoutside of that system to look
in on it and judge it and sortof say like, you know, I think
we might have a, uh, an innatepicture of prostitution in kind
of a Richard Gere, pretty woman,Julia Roberts sort of way.
(18:32):
And we just expect people tostop doing a thing that they
shouldn't do withoutunderstanding the on-ramp that
people who are traffickedexperience.
Oftentimes they, um, theirtraffic tickets as miners, their
kids, um, oftentimes poverty andsubstance abuse and sexual abuse
are a part of their experience.
(18:54):
And so when we understand thatwhen you talk with organizations
that work in trafficking and youkind of hear those stories, it
completely transforms how youthink about people who are
experiencing a version of thatkind of life.
And I think that then transformshow we think even about the
text, even how we think aboutscripture and what it means to
us, um, how we think about, uh,subjects like love and identity
(19:17):
and forgiveness and redemption.
So, um, w for specifically forthis story of Hosea, we do think
that there's a meaning to beunpacked from the text, but also
from the film when we're invitedto see it from a different
perspective.
And I would love to just geekout and talk about arrested
development for the rest of thetime.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, I think that's great.
Uh, you know, one of thepremises of, of our podcast, we
often quote Madeline Lingle.
There is nothing so secular thatit cannot be sacred.
And I was really struck by aquote that I discovered, I think
it was from me, Ryan, you sayover time, you know, people in
our most important stories, uh,slowly turn into what you call
(20:00):
flat abstractions of aparticular idea that a faith
community wants to depict andthey stopped being real people
at that point.
And you say the implicit dangerthen becomes we stopped seeing
ourselves in them.
And I think that's part of whatis so powerful about seeing this
through what you all have calledthe forgotten story or the
(20:21):
forgotten female story in this.
And thinking about Gomer, almostbeing depicted as more of a
prop, which I think you all havetalked about as well.
I remember the great PhyllisTrible old Testament scholar who
talked about, you know, theserpent, uh, in the Adam and Eve
story, being a rhetorical adviceto a re rhetorical device,
(20:43):
rather to get to kind of themain point of the story.
So when you're telling the storythrough Gomez point of view, uh,
and getting at that subversivenarrative, I'm just kind of
curious in this might be a morebasic question, but what drew
each of you to Gomer story, uh,especially that again is, uh,
(21:03):
David mentioned, it's sort ofturning the story upside down a
little bit on its head to kindof see through this, this raw
humanity, this, this raw lens ina way that we, you know, we
really don't get in Sundayschool or don't get in this
sanitized version of, of what,how the church tells the story.
So what, what kind of drew eachof you to that subversive point
(21:26):
of view, uh, to, to really seethis through Kate's eyes or
through Gomorrah's eyes?
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Well, I feel like, I feel like for me, I mean, again,
we talked about, you know, thefact that we don't get to hear
this story.
I mean, not only do we not hearGomer story, like we often
don't, I know I had never, even,I kind of glossed over the fact
that she went back into a life,you know, like it was like, God
(21:57):
say this, you know, prostitute,and then, you know, humanity
would say, it's like, she wentback, you know, what was that
about?
And I think that that wassomething, um, that struck me
about the, about the scriptabout the film is that, you
know, to, to Ryan's point, youknow, no one it's it's, it's
(22:19):
just never that black and whitethat I just want to go back into
this life, you know, that, youknow, was potentially hurtful.
Like nobody just makes thatdecision to just, just give up
everything and go back.
It's not that simple.
Um, so I think for me, what drewme about this story was that w
(22:40):
was really that piece of it.
Um, you know, like I said, notonly have we never heard her
story, but that part w we notonly have, we never heard her
story, but even in the storythat we do tell we kind of gloss
over that part of her going backinto that life.
Um, and I was just, you know, Ithink so much of this movie is,
(23:04):
is about what caused thatdecision and what was, you know,
what happened as a result ofthat decision and so on and so
forth.
Um, and I just found that to bereally, really interesting and
fascinating and worth exploring.
Yeah.
And I think, I mean, this isreally tough to do and to retell
our story because we don't knowher story.
(23:25):
There's nothing in the, in thisHosanna story in the Bible, she
doesn't speak.
So we don't even have anopportunity to know what she was
thinking.
And like Ryan's talked about inApril, I was like, this is a
real person who, for somereason, they didn't give her an
opportunity, whoever, you know,they didn't talk about what she
was feeling and thinking.
And it
Speaker 5 (23:46):
Seems like she was sort of was used as a prop or
the way we retell it.
She's often used as a prop.
And so I was just interested,like, like April said earlier
too, I mean, so much is toldfrom the male point of view and
the Bible, and there's so manymale, um, stories, but it's
like, there's a lot of femalesthere too.
We just don't hear theirperspective.
And I just thought, I think itwould be really interesting
(24:08):
neighbor already touched onthis.
And so to Ryan is like, what,why did she make the decisions
that she made?
Because this is a real person.
And when we were making, or whenwe made the movie and we were
doing like our first sort ofrough screenings of the first
cut, uh, in one of ourscreenings, uh, there was a
little bit of a debate over sortof some of the decisions she
(24:28):
makes because somebody feltlike, well, I don't think that
some that she wouldn't reallydo, like nobody would actually
like do that.
They would never really go back,you know, to the pump.
And then we had someone else whowas at the screening, who April,
who was it, someone that dealtwith?
Um, it was a psychologist,right?
Who works with women who weretrafficked and she's like, no,
(24:50):
this is exactly what wouldhappen.
And so I think that'sinteresting because we love to
make assumptions about whypeople do the things they do in,
unless we put ourselves in theirplace, we'll never really
understand.
And so that's what we weretrying to do and what I was
interested in, why I was drawnto the Gomer character.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
I was just going to say, uh, for me, there is an
element, uh, of coming to thetext that the exit Jesus of the
text reminded me a little bit ofthat exercise of being an actor.
The actors come to roles and areimmediately interested in trying
to put flesh on a role.
So actors are asking questionslike, does this person speak
with an accent?
Do they walk with a limp?
(25:29):
And that reminded me of a, aGreek class that I had early in
college, where I was for thefirst time introduced to the
idea of the search for thehistorical Jesus.
And this Greek professor said hewas sort of inviting us to think
about, uh, Christ as a humanbeing who walked the dusty
streets.
And he said maybe Christ wasballed.
Maybe he walked with a limp.
And that was just blew my mindbecause I knew that that was not
(25:52):
possible based on lots of imagesI had seen in my Sunday school
classes growing up.
Right.
Um, but it was it that was veryformative to me.
And I started wanting toapproach each of these stories,
wondering, uh, when you start toput flesh back on these people,
how does it transform the way,not just that you think about
them, but the way you thinkabout the themes that we are
supposed to be thinking aboutmore broadly about the text, for
(26:14):
example, specifically in thisstory, what is, uh, what does
saving look like?
What does salvation look like?
It's very easy to read a textand sort of think that, you
know, especially for me in theposition I'm in, I know what
this person being saved lookslike.
And I think for Gomer, for aperson who is actually inside
(26:37):
the experience, especially apainful one, someone stepping in
and kind of a, you know, asuperhero sort of way of being
like, I'm here to save you withjust the love of a good man, um,
strikes false, like that isfalse for a person inside the
space of that pain.
Uh, so it really made me want tothink about and hear what her
(26:58):
story might've been like, whichmeans, uh, to Suzanne's point,
listening to the stories ofactual women present day, um,
who are, who are, or who havebeen in the midst of these
experiences and hearing whattheir, their stories were like.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, that was actually one of my questions.
And you're already getting atthat, but when you, I love the
way you said that, how you putflesh on a character who, you
know, so much, we don't knowabout her story, but I was kind
of curious about what sort ofhomework or research that you
had to do to build out Kate'scharacter and you know, who did
you talk to?
How did you, uh, what did youfind out through that process of
(27:38):
really building out the humanityof her character, whether it's
interviews or some of the thingsyou already have alluded to?
Speaker 4 (27:44):
Yeah.
I'm working with severalorganizations, especially here
in Los Angeles who work inanti-trafficking space and
hearing direct stories fromwomen.
Who've experienced this.
And as I mentioned earlier, youstart to hear through lines.
I mean, it's important to saythat, you know, this is a
fictional depiction of a womannamed Kate, and this is not at
all to say, this is what allhuman trafficking situations
(28:06):
are.
Like.
It's not, there's a whole broadexperience, um, for people who
have come through these kinds of, uh, traumas, but hearing this,
hearing the stories of manywomen over a period of time,
especially through thoseorganizations, allowed us to
sort of catch a lot ofcommonalities.
(28:27):
And like I mentioned before,those are often that, um, it
begins early, a really commonversion of this story is someone
to say, I was 12, 13, 14.
I didn't have a great home life.
You know, um, I spent a lot oftime say at the mall and an
older guy, he was probably 18 or19 showed interest in me.
(28:48):
I remember one specific woman'sstory.
She told a very, very cleardepiction of like being in the
food court and this guy comingup and being super sweet and
just showing interest in her ina way that a man never had.
And they just started dating.
And over the course of time, thelove and care and affection of
that relationship becamecommodified, became commodified
(29:09):
to gift giving and then becamecommodified to now, if you do
other things for other people,that will be the, the, um,
criteria by which I willcontinue to show you love and
affection.
And, um, when you hear someonetelling that story and the, you
know, the, the way that, um,sexual abuse and substance abuse
and poverty get woven into thatover a long period of time, uh,
(29:31):
you, you realize like this, thisis not someone waking up at the
age of 18 or 20 some day, andjust deciding to go down to the
street corner.
Like, that's just not how thesestories
Speaker 5 (29:42):
Work.
So hearing the commonality ofthe stories is really the main
homework to being able to writea character like him.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
My background is in music and that's what my life
has been dedicated to as an artform.
And I've often said that Iadmire film and consider it
built.
Filmmaking is like the pinnacleof human artistic achievement
because of the way it combinesvirtually every known form of
(30:13):
art that humanity has, you know,from, from music to acting, to
costume, to the visualcomponents of cinematography, to
storytelling.
It's just so comprehensive andholistic, um, twofold here.
One, I'm curious from aproduction standpoint, we have
(30:34):
two, the two producers here.
Um, what does that look likewhen you're creating a film
combining all of these myriad ofartistic elements in to within
the movie?
Um, you clearly highlighted thesignificance of human creativity
and creative expression at thecore of, of kind of all that is
(30:58):
good, even within what we viewas bad.
The character Kate, um, is, uh,is an amateur photographer,
perhaps more than that.
And, uh, to me that was one ofthe really satisfying components
of it.
That's how you brought to life,the goodness in her soul from a,
from a film perspective, but sosort of two aspects here from a
(31:19):
production standpoint, what's itlike to put all these things
together and, and to from withinthe movie, you highlighting the
significance of creativeexpression.
Um, uh, what, why is thatimportant?
Speaker 5 (31:31):
Uh, all of those elements together is a tornado.
If you're, if you produce it'scause you like the craziness,
like I actually miss production.
I think I'm the only one that'slike, I wish we could go back to
production.
Like I like a million thingsgoing on at once and having to
make decisions.
And it was, I mean, there was alot of work and thought on the
(31:53):
front end of that, you know,before you go into production,
obviously, and your Ryan's theone who wrote this script.
So he had all these things inmind and then you just
producer's job is to put allthose puzzle pieces together.
So leading up to it, it's crazyand it's hectic, but it's a lot
of fun to hire people who thisis their, you know, for art
production, this is theirexpertise.
(32:14):
This person is like, this iswhat they're really good at.
And to oversee all of thosethings.
And Ryan was heavily involved inall of this with us.
And, um, it was, it was honestlyfun.
It was, that was a fun part isseeing all those puzzle pieces
come together.
And then as far as your secondquestion, I mean, you write what
you know, and Ryan is an amateurphotographer.
(32:36):
That was his camera that shecarries in the movie.
Oh, cool.
Speaker 6 (32:41):
It was, uh, there's a lot of, uh, Ryan and Kate, so,
um, but yeah, I mean, it was, itwas just a lot of, this was so
much fun, so much fun on when wegot to actually be in production
and get to that point.
And then on the, uh, on thebackend of the music or having
Gungar score, the movie was justlike the icing on the cake.
(33:02):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
I mean, to your point about thescore, it definitely, um, took
off once we, especially that,you know, without giving
anything away, the final momentI'll say, um, was just, was
really impactful.
I mean, I feel like in terms ofthe pieces coming together, I,
(33:23):
um, I really felt like there's,you know, we were doing, we're
doing this film that has thiskind of weight to it and like
this heaviness to it, and, youknow, all that Suzanne, that,
that word is like such a perfectword of the tornado.
Um, of just all of theseelements, you know, sort of
(33:45):
coming together and all ofthese, all of these elements
kind of spiraling at the sametime.
I mean, I, I think about, youknow, are just, you know, even
the weight of our production, itwas weird shooting in the middle
of winter in Oklahoma, it wasfreezing cold.
Well, it was, it was, it wasburning pot the first day of
(34:06):
production, but then thetemperature belonged know
plummeted, uh, down to like 30degrees, you know, the next day.
So there was a lot, you know,even just in the atmosphere of
creating this film that I think,you know, just help contribute,
um, in terms of those piecescoming together and having to
(34:27):
work around all of thoseelements and, and figure it out
and still keep the crew andstill keep the cast, you know,
excited and, and, um,comfortable, um, was, was
another part of that, thatelement of producing the film,
um, especially in light of whatwe were doing in light of the
subject matter that we were,that we were trying to tackle
Speaker 4 (34:48):
When we think about intact inside the movie itself,
um, you know, for me invitingpeople to bring, uh, the Imago
DEI back to the Gomer character.
So to think about the image ofGod inside the character of Kate
, uh, I think of that as the actof creating that in as much as
God is creator for us to beinvited to the act of creating a
(35:12):
, to have Kate do that.
And for us to, as the audienceto enjoy watching her create
really helps, um, restore thatin her as a character.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, there's a character in the movie, Andrew,
who's a curator of an artgallery.
I fell in love with him.
He was, he was great.
And he's sort of a pseudoadvocate for the goodness within
Kate's, uh, spirit and soul andcharacter.
Cause, uh, he, he's the one whosays, you know, you're actually
really good at this.
(35:41):
And, uh, th those parts of themovie were really, it helped for
me balanced the whole experienceout.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
He's one of the only care, one of the only men who
don't commodify or try to changeher, right.
He's such an importantcharacter.
And he was our moments of levityin the movie, which you
definitely need in this kind ofmovie.
And I just, he's a friend ofours.
So it was really fun to see himcome and play this character
because that's not really whathe's like, obviously he's not
(36:07):
Andrew, but it's just so muchfun.
And then he and Camille, uh, sothe Kate and Andrew character,
they just, they didn't meetuntil, I mean, like minutes
before they were shooting theirscene and they just immediately
had this sort of connection andcharisma together.
So it was, it was cool to get tosee them shoot those scenes.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
That's great.
Beautifully said.
I D I think, uh, David and Ihave sort of a similar question
about this, but, you know, oneof the things that was just so
striking to me and so impressiveis that when you take such a
core biblical story, like theHosea story, and you have
re-imagined it and recast it theway you have, you know, to do
(36:48):
that in a way that isn't sort of, uh, uh, you know, I'm a
pastor, so I can say this likeChristian malarkey, right.
I read that you're like yousaid, trying to proselytize at H
how do you create a film that isso simple, you know, so
centrally, biblical in terms ofthe core narrative and do that
in a way that is so beautifullyand radically, uh, human.
(37:13):
And to me, you've done that.
And it's sort of made me askwhat is a Christian film anyway.
And I think David, you have alittle bit more of a nuanced way
to ask that again, being with abackground in music, I thinking
like the artist Sufi on Stephensis, um, without question, he's a
professor Christian, his faithin narratives of theology and
(37:36):
Christianity are all over hismusic, but he's not playing at
the Colorado Rockies faith day,right.
He's not considered really byalmost anyone to be a Christian
artist.
And yet all of this stuff is soomnipresent in its impact and to
the listener.
And I kind of felt a similar waywith how you guys, how you all,
(37:56):
I'm sorry.
I keep saying you guys, how youall did this movie and, and I
was impressed.
And wondering if that wasintentional front and center for
your goals, um, that it would,that it would come across to
everyone rather than just aselect group of people.
Speaker 4 (38:16):
Yup.
Well, I think, um, it's veryimportant to point out that, you
know, with movies, there are somany people involved.
Um, and, uh, my, my particularworldview, my, and my faith, um,
are not indicative at all ofother peoples involved in the
film.
There are lots of people whowere intricate parts of this
(38:39):
movie that don't considerthemselves people of faith.
And for me to kind of make themovie be a thing for me,
wouldn't be faithful to theirparticipation in it.
So I think it's really importantto recognize that element first.
Um, and then, you know,additionally, I think, uh, when
(39:01):
we take a story and control itin order to do something for us,
it probably is not a good storyat that point.
Um, and it's really easy foraudiences to assume that the
goal of the movie is to affirmtheir beliefs or to proselytize
people, right.
And, uh, we are not interestedin that.
(39:21):
And we, what we are interestedin is a story that creates space
and a good story is justentering into a space where, uh,
in order for, for a moment ofgrace.
And I don't mean thatspecifically in a Christian way,
uh, a moment of grace redemptionto happen there, there has to be
(39:42):
an experience of loss of thatgrace of pain of need.
And the storyteller has to beable to invite the audience to
walk through that, that need,and that experience of pain in
order to eventually arrive atthe place of grace and
redemption.
And so I think if, if that'sjust the goal of what a story is
(40:02):
doing, that it doesn't mean thatit's it.
I believe that it, God is inthat space, but it doesn't mean
that it's a Christian movie,that terminology by the way, is
really problematic.
Um, there's been some greatwriting on, uh, one of my
favorite articles is written bya writer named Melissa
Wilkinson, where she talks abouta movie cannot take the
Eucharist, therefore it can notbe Christian.
(40:23):
Uh, and it's, it's reallyproblematic for us to call.
Um, I understand why we do it.
It's a functional term.
Why we say faith-based films,why we say Christian films, but
a film can not be Christian.
If film cannot believe inChrist, the film can tell a
story and then it can be a wayfor us to talk about God in the
world.
Um, I'm going a lot again, Iknow in April you have some, um,
(40:45):
you've thought about this a lot,especially in terms of gin,
right?
Speaker 6 (40:48):
I've always kind of found our sort of definition of
Christian or what's like calledthe Christian film.
And I've, I've wrestled withthat for a long time and have
found it to be, you know,somewhat problematic.
And, you know, maybe some ofthat is because early on, you
(41:08):
know, I, I grew up in church,but I grew up in a church that
was very, um, you know, uh, I'llput it this way.
Like, I didn't really hear ofthat term Christian film until I
was much older.
And that's just, wasn't the lensthat the faith tradition that I
grew up in that just wasn't alens that we saw things through.
(41:30):
Um, we saw art as something thatwas, um, you know, healing and
for a community.
And what that meant was that thecommunity, you know, helps
define how we, you know,interpret and, um, embrace a
piece of art.
(41:51):
Um, and then, you know, throughthat looking at, where do we
see, sorry, where do we see Godin?
That was kind of a differentapproach?
I think.
Um, so I, yeah, I've always kindof found that definition that I
should say the standard, youknow, industry definition of
Christian film to beproblematic.
(42:13):
Um, especially because, youknow, most times, uh, Christian
film is also synonymous withfamily friendly when, you know,
and, and there's, there's thatwhole aspect of it too.
And again, when I read theBible, I'm like, there's some
hardcore stuff going on theBible, like all of this can't be
(42:33):
family-friendly in that sense,you know,
Speaker 4 (42:35):
We should probably point out that Jose is rated R
that's a good point.
Like stories like Noah, by theway, you guys, a lot of people
died in that story.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:54):
There, there, you know, some horrific things
happened.
Um, and I think when we, youknow, I could go on and on as
well, but I think when we, whenwe start to go us over that, we
lose the very point of thegospel.
You know, it's like Jesus comesto us in the midst of some very
(43:17):
nasty, terrible thing.
And Jesus comes in the midst ofthat and says, I've come to
bring you light life, you know,and that more abundantly.
And so it's like, when we missthe, like the dirt, then it's
like the, then, then the pointof God and of Jesus and the
light, it does it like what youdon't get the same impact on
(43:39):
that.
I don't think so.
The, that whole idea ofChristian film, um, you know,
part of the reason why I wasinto this project was because we
were kind of looking to sort ofstep away from that.
Speaker 5 (43:52):
Yeah.
Cause it's like the, theinspiration came from this
narrative, but it was nevermeant to be a Christian film,
you know, it was meant to be,and I think it is a movie for
the masses for bigger, for abigger audience.
And that was in your question.
So good David, because it washard through the years of like,
how do we walk this line?
Because this is going to, if wecall it Hosea, people are going
(44:15):
to have an idea of what thismovie is about, but it's
probably not that.
So do we call it something outand it'll be just like, it was,
this was really, really tough.
And in the end, I'm super proudof what we have and these kinds
of conversations that we'rewe're having.
But, um, but yeah, I just thatthe title
Speaker 4 (44:32):
A lot that was a long road of us really work,
struggling with the title forexactly Suzanne's point.
The, the risk is that you callit Jose and people think they
know what it is.
Um, but at least they understandthe connection, the biblical
story.
But if you don't call it Hosea,because of the way we told the
story, there might be a lot ofpeople who just watch it and
(44:53):
never understand the biblicalconnection.
And we think if that happens,then there's a layer to the
conversation of the film thatthey would be missing.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah.
Andrew and I had that exactconversation, um, that I think
most people wouldn't know that,and it might make it a little
bit more difficult to tow theline, but it adds a layer of
complexity and depth to thestory and to the film that's
just really admirable.
And I think everything that youhave been saying, especially in
this last little bit here iswhat, what, what cause us to
(45:24):
create this, this podcast calledhyphenated life, trying to break
down some of those expectationsand barriers and, and have the
nimbleness and, and empathy tosee the world from another
perspective.
And I want to thank you eachSuzanne, Avril, Ryan, um,
producers and writer, directorof the film, Hosea for being on
(45:45):
hyphenated life with us today.
I know we're just about to ourtime here.
So, um, I wanted to see if youcould go ahead and, and tell our
listeners the best way that theycan watch your film.
Hosea
Speaker 4 (45:58):
Jose is available on iTunes, Apple TV, Amazon prime
video, or Google play.
You can rent or buy the movie onthose four platforms.
And we also have a discussionguide, which is a companion
piece to the movie that isamazing.
We take a deeper dive into ourthemes.
So I highly recommend you checkout.
Our website has afm.com,
Speaker 2 (46:20):
But everybody listening, watch the Hosea film,
watch it with friends and Ryanand Suzanne and Avril.
Thank you again for joining usfor hyphenated life today.
What an extraordinary movieyou've made.
And, uh, we are all more fullyhuman because of it.
And, uh, we're so grateful foryour artistic savvy and sharing
(46:40):
your time with us today.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (46:41):
Oh my goodness.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
[inaudible]
Speaker 2 (46:53):
If is a production of pine street church in Boulder,
Colorado hosted by AndrewDoherty and David longed.
You,
Speaker 3 (46:59):
The podcast is produced by Phil Norman and
executive producer, Alexi Moldenspecial thanks to our guests
today and the LEL Hill trust of[inaudible].
Speaker 7 (47:34):
This episode is brought to you by the taco
wagon.
Maybe we can get free breakfastfor you guys.
If you're a burrito and you werestarving, would you eat
yourself?
(47:59):
Uh, don't jerk me around onthis.
It's a simple yes or noquestion.
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