November 19, 2020 • 27 mins
With David in the host driver's seat this week he catches up with friend and colleague, Waverly Matthews. Kindred spirits, they discuss matters of spirituality and the arts, the revelatory nature of the creative arts, and many other inspiring topics at the heart of the hyphen in Hyphenated Life.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Did you ever take art in high school?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Um, I think I had a choice in college between art
appreciation and musicappreciation.
So I took music appreciation.
You appreciate music now?
I don't remember much from thatclass.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yeah, it's pretty, I mean, it's a, it's a lot of
information to cover in a 16week, semester.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yeah.
Okay.
Welcome to hyphenated life.
This is Andrew Dardy.
And on today's episode, mycohost David[inaudible] dues sat
down with our very own WaverleyMatthews to talk about
spirituality and the artsWaverly, who, uh, is somebody
who is a missionary for theartists gospel and the
reclamation or recovery of thevisual arts as a medium for
(00:49):
spiritual enlightenment andspiritual growth.
I think in a lot of ways, atsome point you could say truth
and beauty and goodness used to,uh, to, to be together.
And in certainly church spacesspeaking as a pastor, uh, and
hundreds of years ago, thechurch was this repository for
the visual arts, a real hub of asacred art, or even common art
(01:13):
being a way to access thedivine.
And so some of those themes willplay out on today's episode.
And David, I look forward tohearing the full interview
today, thanks for sitting downwith Waverley and bringing some
of that to life with his workand teaching the arts and his
brand new podcast interviewingartists.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, it was a hundred percent.
My pleasure.
I've known Waverley for severalyears now.
He's been an inspiration to mefor learning about art, the
visual arts for, um, inspiringme to go out and, and experience
art.
I've been to more art galleriesand art museums in the last two
(01:54):
years.
And I had in my previous 36years, and, and that's a hundred
percent I owe to WaverleyMatthews his classes that he
does on a weekly basis.
It gets you to really thinkabout what's all around us
because we are creative beings,right?
If we are made in the image ofGod and the first thing God did
(02:16):
was create, then we arecompelled to be creative.
And the arts are absolutely acritical way that we do that.
So spirituality and the artshave always been and are
completely intertwined in, in a,in a really important way.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah.
I mean, his passion is I have tosay the word contagious these
days, but he's just, he's justinfused with this passion.
And I know I've quoted thisnovelist a lot, but I love this
quote.
And I think about Waverly when Ithink of it, it's someone has
found their vocation when theyfind something that keeps making
(02:58):
more of.
And what I love about Waverleyis his passion is so present in
who he is and he exudes that.
And I love the way he talksabout, you know, his impact is
helping others make an impactand doing that through
spirituality and the arts.
And he has such a, an indeliblebackground being trained as a
(03:18):
pastor, being a pastor for awhile.
And now being on this journeywhere he is discovering art, as
what he, I believe says is anaccessible medium for people who
are spiritually longing, who aretrying to have their
imaginations stoked and fired upabout a way to see the divine
(03:41):
through visual art.
It's an extraordinary, well, I'mgoing to be a pastor nerd and
say, it's an extraordinaryministry he has.
But I think it really is.
And, you know, there's the, uh,image of the starving artist who
creates all of this beautifulartwork.
And I think in a lot of ways,the church has been starving
because there's not been a placefor artists within it in such a
(04:03):
long time.
And it's hard to find churchesthat are really using certainly
the visual arts specifically asa serious component of their own
DNA.
And I think the church has losta lot by taking beauty, deeming
it heresy, and burning it at thestake and some sorts of ways
where it's like, where, whereare the visual arts in the
(04:25):
church?
Because we're so word centric,but that's part of the problem,
how beauty, I don't mean thisliterally, but when it comes to
visual arts, beauty being bannedby the church, because we became
so focused on words and intelling and not showing if
there's anything I remember formy sixth grade English teacher,
(04:46):
she always pressed us in ourwriting to show and not tell.
But I think that's the power ofvisual arts now is it shows
whether or not you it's, youdon't have to read some big book
to experience art firsthand andhow that impacts you.
The aesthetic power ofencountering a piece of art that
(05:08):
speaks to you beyond words,that's the power of poetry.
It's the power of fine art likepainting.
Maybe I should become a painter.
Maybe I'll just start.
Maybe I'll just go get a canvasand start splashing, paint all
over it and see what happens.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
That's a good place to start.
Yeah.
I mean, that'd be afraid.
Welcome to hyphenated life.
We invite you to join us on thisjourney to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
(05:45):
become more fully alive.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Thank you for being with us today.
Waverly, thank you for havingme.
I'm glad to be here.
Waverley Matthews is a graduateof the university of Virginia in
Charlottesville, the Cavalierswith a bachelor's in religious
studies, also a graduate ofunion theological seminary with
a master's in divinity, as wellas I left school of theology in
Denver with a master's oftheological studies and an
(06:23):
emphasis on the philosophy ofaesthetics.
He, uh, considers himself amissionary for the artist
gospel.
He's also an independenteducator who for the last seven
years has taught classes on theintersection of the arts and
spirituality.
Recently Waverley started apodcast called whammo art asylum
(06:43):
to explore the wisdom of thearts spirituality and the great
ideas and discover meaning andmission in a post religion
world.
So I want to start right awaythat this idea that we live in a
post religion world, what, whatexactly does that mean?
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Well, ever since Nicha came along and announced
the death of God, uh, he hasproved prophetic.
Uh, the West, especially Iespecially has become more and
more secularized andinstitutional religious
organizations have had less andless influence as a result.
And, you know, you can see it inchurch attendance, uh,
(07:21):
attendance at synagogues andtemples of, uh, of all sorts of
faiths are losing congregants,at least in the West, uh, and
particularly the North.
So you really see that in thiscommunity right here, Boulder,
it's one of the most secularcommunities in the United
States.
And of course, uh, Europe hasbeen secular for quite some
(07:41):
time.
There's so many empty chapelsand cathedrals on Sunday
morning.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Well, that's interesting.
So this idea that religion is athing of the past.
And yet I think if you walk downPearl street, our main tourist
attraction site here in Boulder,Colorado, you asked a hundred
people.
You'd probably get about 70% ofthem saying, uh, I'm spiritual,
but not religious.
How is religion important forspirituality?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Well, I think a lot of people only associate
religion with dogmaticdeclarations from loud mouth
ministers, honestly, which iscompletely inaccurate.
Uh, for most religiousorganizations, people declare
themselves spiritual, but notreligious because they want to
(08:33):
have an experience of somethingbeyond themselves.
Something transcended.
They want to live for somethingmore than just their own
immediate needs.
And so they are spiritual andall of us are spiritual.
Religion has traditionally beena place where spiritual people
can gather as a community andshare their journey towards the
(08:56):
spiritual life together andencourage one another.
And that's really what religionat its best is all about.
You have a few bad applesthough, over the years.
And then of course, all thereligious Wars are done 17th,
18th century, and that sort ofthing.
But, but now you have a few badapples who, uh, pick it the
(09:16):
funerals of, uh, former soldiers, uh, and, and give everybody a
bad name and, uh, give allreligions a bad name.
And so it's, it's pretty sadthat people have given up on
religion because in theirjourney towards a spiritual
life, they really could beaided, I think most effectively
by joining a religious communityof some kind.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
What about, uh, religion's role in providing a
social and culture, culturalnarrative to a spiritual
experience, such as creationstories, um, uh, concepts like
that and, and how, how canreligion help, uh, prop up
spirituality in that sense as anexp as a human experience?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Well, religion has always been the repository of
our great myths and some peoplethink of a myth as simply an
untrue story, a lie, but mythsare stories that contain the
most profound truths ofexistence.
They're vital for our journeytowards meaning and purpose in
(10:19):
life.
And once we understand myths asembodying significant truths
about who we are and our placein the world, I think people
will be much more sympathetic towhat religious communities can
do because religious communitiesdo share these myths.
That's the place where, uh, wefind the most easily.
(10:41):
Now for me, I also believe thesemyths are contained in the arts
as well.
And that's why I try to sharethe arts.
And I, I use the arts because ofthe arts are an accessible
medium for people who are turnedoff by traditional religion.
They can still encounter thesemyths encounter and experience
of transcendence outside ofreligious communities.
(11:04):
But I still encourage people to,to find a community where they
can go along the journey withother people.
And that's usually found inreligions,
Speaker 1 (11:15):
The idea of art leading to transcendent
experience.
I happen to agree with youtranscendent experience for me
is the sort of end goal of, ofartistic expression and
experience.
Um, w what are some, what's anexample how that was formative
for where you are today in yourlife?
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Well, I'll tell you one of the most formative
experiences of my life.
I was in seminary inPhiladelphia, attended a
seminary for a couple of years.
There didn't graduate from ittransferred.
But while I was in Philadelphia,I heard about a special exhibit
of the Barnes foundationcollection, which is one of the
greatest, and post-impressionistcollections of art in the world.
(11:57):
And I didn't know anything aboutart.
I hadn't taken any art historycourses at that time.
I just knew I liked looking atit.
So I went to this exhibit and itwas as if I had gone to some
kind of spiritual revival andheard it, heard a message and
had this profound experiencealmost out of body experience.
And I didn't understand itthough.
(12:18):
I didn't have a way of, ofinterpreting it.
I didn't have the vocabulary orknew none of the history.
And so I left the museum thatday, sort of in bewilderment,
but knew that I encounteredsomething sacred.
I didn't know how I hadencountered it because the
seminary at the time I was, uh,the seminar I was attending at
(12:40):
the time, definitely taught thatrevelation only comes through
the written word and onlythrough a very specific
collection of the written word,namely the Bible.
And now I'd had this experienceof revelation outside of the
Bible, and I didn't know how tomake sense of it fast forward,
six more years.
Uh, that experience is stillwith me.
(13:01):
And I went back to seminary toget a master's of theological
studies and really look at thespiritual power of art.
And that's basically what Istudied when I got my master's
of theological studies.
I had to figure it out and then,uh, gave myself basically an art
history education by teachingour classes.
That's how I, I learned.
(13:23):
And from that, I really realizedthat art is an expression of a
profound experience of theartist.
All revelation is interpretedexperience, though.
Okay.
It's filtered through the personwho experiences it.
And so the greater the artist iswhether they're writing it down
(13:44):
in the form of scripture orliterature or poetry, or whether
they're expressing it throughmusic or dance or film, or
through painting or sculptingthe greater the artist, the more
accurate they, the art reflectsthe experience.
And so that's why we're drawn tocertain art.
(14:05):
And it's the great art it'srecognized as the great art.
And that's why we also call itthe Canon.
We have a Canon of scripture,but we have a Canon of art as
well.
And it's the art that's in ourgreatest museums.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
So I, I love this idea of art being reflective of
transcendent experience, being a, almost a, a language and a
pallet, if you will, for visualart, um, how can the artist's
palette be enhanced by theirunderstanding of everything that
came before it?
(14:38):
So you mentioned a couple oftimes you immerse yourself in
art history in the way you didthat was to create a series of
classes on that.
How has art history enhancesomeone's ability to experience
and create art at a spirituallevel?
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Well, I think it just helps people understand it at a
deeper level.
It's equivalent to what Istudied in seminary, church
history and theology, thehistory of theology.
When you trace the way we thinkthe way we experience our world
over the course of history, itjust gives you a better
(15:14):
perspective on your ownexperience and helps you
understand your own experiencesbetter.
And so in that regard, I thinkan artist's understanding of
themselves and their own journeyis enhanced.
And that I think eventuallycomes through their art.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
So knowledge is, is a critical component to the
equation, right?
I, I, I believe I've actuallyheard you say, and I can't
remember who it's attributed to,but wisdom is knowledge plus
perspective.
Um, in wisdom is a prettycritical component, I think, to,
(15:51):
uh, to human experience at aspiritual level here on our
planet earth.
Um, the, this idea of, ofartists creation being divinely
inspired as if they're, there isa concept of a metaphor of like
(16:12):
a divine antenna.
It's you expound on that concepta little bit, you know, I've
heard in, in performing arts,the idea of flow state, um,
where you just sort of tap intothat transcendent wavelength, so
to speak, um, artists that arewhose work is now a part of that
(16:37):
Canon that you mentioned thatthat provides almost a whole, a
whole spiritual narrativethrough art, to our spiritual
experiences here on earth.
How, where, where do you, whatare some thoughts around that
idea of those artists andcreators being divinely
inspired, being plugged into adivine wavelength, so to speak?
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Well, a lot of artists have expressed that they
feel something channelingthrough them when they're
creating art, they hadn't, andsometimes it's defined as a flow
state in the flow state.
Many people don't accept theidea of divine inspiration, but
(17:22):
what is being channeled then issomething deep within them,
perhaps something in theunconscious, perhaps, uh, the
collective unconscious has CarlYoung put it, uh, the archetypes
that sort of are wired into ourbrain, that we don't have ready
access to at the consciouslevel, but through the creative
process, we can go pass theconscious level to the
unconscious and allow sort of,um, those deeper, uh, important
(17:48):
myths that live within us tocome out and express themselves
artistically.
So we don't necessarily have tospeak only about divine
inspiration.
It can be, uh, channelingsomething that's deep within us
that we normally don't haveaccess to, but it's still is it
feels to the person expressingit as if something beyond their
(18:12):
self is, is, uh, wanting toexpress itself through them.
And so that's why I used theterm revelation, whether it's
coming from some transcendentrealm, metaphysical realm, or
whether it's coming fromsomeplace deep within us, it's
still revelation because it'snot something that's readily
available to us at our consciouslevel.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Do you feel like there are any kind of specific
references in the Bible speakingspecifically of Christianity
that, that emphasize thesignificance of the creative
experience, either throughcreation, um, humans creating or
humans experiencing creationthat sort of might help bridge
(18:55):
that gap between the westernized, um, giant wall between sacred
and secular.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
I think we are closest to source God, whatever
you want to call it when we arein the creative process, because
that is the primal act.
It's the very beginning of theBible.
It's our introduction into whoGod divinity is.
Divinity is pure creation.
And, uh, I'm a fan of, uh, thephilosopher, the Catholic Jesuit
(19:28):
tow yard dish Chardon, whobelieve that God has always
creating creation has neverstopped.
You know, there arefundamentalist groups that
believe no creation happenedonce.
And, and it was long time ago,like 6,000 years ago.
And, and, and that sort ofthing, but obviously
scientifically, when we look atwhat's happening, this creation
(19:48):
going on all the time, you know,look at evolution, that's an
example of creation.
And we participate in thatevolution, that creative process
to process theologians believethat God is constantly evolving
and expanding.
And, um, and we contribute tothat process through our own
experiences, God adorbs, ourexperiences, our creativity.
(20:09):
And I love that quote fromWilliam Blake, uh, eternity is
in love with the productions oftime.
Um, when we create, we areparticipating in a divine act,
um, we are becoming godlikeourselves.
We're tapping into our owndivinity when we create
something.
(20:29):
And that's why so many peopleexperience, uh, art and, and
creating art as a spiritualexperience.
You know, I know a lot ofartists who don't believe in
God, but they say, but myspirituality is my art.
It's, it's the creative act.
That's I feel that other,whatever it is, and Henry
(20:51):
Miller, the writer, uh, he said,uh, I don't know if he was a
believer in any kind oftraditional God, but he
definitely believed he waschanneling something greater.
He referred to it as it speakingthrough him.
So all artists experience thatand we experienced it.
We don't have to be artists.
We can experience it when wecreate something ourselves.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
So this idea that the divine can be found in, in every
one of us.
Um, I know for me that, that,that speaks, that preaches as
they say to me.
Um, and I think part of thecall, if you've experienced that
in you, you know, what that isto feel you want others to feel
(21:34):
that as well.
And I think that that, thatstarts bridging the concepts of
evangelism and witnessing, andthis idea of divine witnessing,
recognizing, and trying to bringout the divine in others and
everyone around you.
Um, what are, what are you doingtoday, um, in your life?
Um, what, what kind of pursuitsare you doing to, to work
(21:58):
towards, uh, helping others torecognize, learn about and
experience this opportunity forchanneling the divine within
them, whether it's throughexperiencing art or whether it's
through creating art or learningabout it?
Well, I definitely do it throughmy writing.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
You were teaching, but that is to a local
community.
And that's why I started thepodcast.
I wanted to get that message outto a broader audience.
And the web is a fantastic toolfor that.
And so I've started the podcastand then I'm also going to
broaden out my audience for myclasses.
And based on the feedback,people really do feel like their
(22:41):
perspective is expanding as theyengage with the arts and as they
learn about arts.
And of course, like you said,um, wisdom is knowledge plus
perspective as their perspectivebroadens and their knowledge, uh
, their capacity to make wisedecisions in life and to come up
with better solutions tosocietal issues, uh, is expanded
(23:04):
as well.
And so my impact that I want tomake through my podcast and
through my classes is to helpother people make their impact,
whatever that is.
And if I can be a part of thatand help them along the way,
then, um, it's been worth it,
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Absolutely Waverly, Matthews, WEMA art asylum, where
you can explore the wisdom ofthe art spirituality and the
great ideas and discover meaningand mission in a post religion
world.
I want to kind of close today'sconversation here with, you
know, the pervasive thing that'shappening in on, on the planet
today is the COVID-19 pandemic.
(23:42):
Um, and obviously that'simpacted every of life.
And the arts to experiencing arecreating art, um, in this world
where all that has been changedso dramatically, what have you
seen happening or experiencehappening in the world of
spirituality and the art and thearts that's making you come more
(24:04):
alive?
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Well, seeing creative responses, particularly among
entrepreneurs, and I considerentrepreneurs, artists of
business, they create somethingnew, whether it's value,
service, whatever it is, aproduct, uh, they have to be
very creative artisticallyspeaking.
So I'm excited to see about theresponses.
(24:27):
The creative imagination hasbeen sparked through this
because, um, traditionalbusinesses have suffered and
owners of these businesses havehad to become very imaginative
or they have to close.
There's no choice, same withartists of all kinds trying to
sell their work.
And it's very difficult when youcan't get in front of the face
of a buyer and show them yourwork.
(24:48):
And so they're having to be very, um, show some ingenuity and
that's good for them.
It's good for everybody.
And I think culture as a wholegrows most during crises because
we have to think differently torespond to it effectively.
And so I see this pandemic, um,tragic as it is for many people
(25:12):
as a great opportunity also forculture broadly speaking to
advance itself as well.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
That's awesome.
I think I, I agree with that100%, um, for harmony
contentment, peace andstillness, the trials and
tribulations of adversity mustfill us.
Thank you Waverly for being onwith us today, here at
hyphenated life.
Again, you can find his podcast.
(25:41):
WEMA art asylum, uh, everySunday at 10:30 AM, wherever you
get your podcasts.
And, uh, so thank you again forbeing with us.
Very glad to be here.
Thank you so much for inviting
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Hyphenated life.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
There's a production of pine street church in
Boulder, Colorado hosted byAndrew Doherty and David
[inaudible].
Speaker 3 (26:25):
The podcast is produced by Phil Norman and
executive producer, Alexi Moldenspecial thanks to our guests
today and the Leal Hill trust ofBoulder, Colorado.
(27:12):
[inaudible].
Did you ever take art in high school?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Um, I think I had a choice in college between art
appreciation and musicappreciation.
So I took music appreciation.
You appreciate music now?
I don't remember much from thatclass.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yeah, it's pretty, I mean, it's a, it's a lot of
information to cover in a 16week, semester.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yeah.
Okay.
Welcome to hyphenated life.
This is Andrew Dardy.
And on today's episode, mycohost David[inaudible] dues sat
down with our very own WaverleyMatthews to talk about
spirituality and the artsWaverly, who, uh, is somebody
who is a missionary for theartists gospel and the
reclamation or recovery of thevisual arts as a medium for
(00:49):
spiritual enlightenment andspiritual growth.
I think in a lot of ways, atsome point you could say truth
and beauty and goodness used to,uh, to, to be together.
And in certainly church spacesspeaking as a pastor, uh, and
hundreds of years ago, thechurch was this repository for
the visual arts, a real hub of asacred art, or even common art
(01:13):
being a way to access thedivine.
And so some of those themes willplay out on today's episode.
And David, I look forward tohearing the full interview
today, thanks for sitting downwith Waverley and bringing some
of that to life with his workand teaching the arts and his
brand new podcast interviewingartists.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, it was a hundred percent.
My pleasure.
I've known Waverley for severalyears now.
He's been an inspiration to mefor learning about art, the
visual arts for, um, inspiringme to go out and, and experience
art.
I've been to more art galleriesand art museums in the last two
(01:54):
years.
And I had in my previous 36years, and, and that's a hundred
percent I owe to WaverleyMatthews his classes that he
does on a weekly basis.
It gets you to really thinkabout what's all around us
because we are creative beings,right?
If we are made in the image ofGod and the first thing God did
(02:16):
was create, then we arecompelled to be creative.
And the arts are absolutely acritical way that we do that.
So spirituality and the artshave always been and are
completely intertwined in, in a,in a really important way.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah.
I mean, his passion is I have tosay the word contagious these
days, but he's just, he's justinfused with this passion.
And I know I've quoted thisnovelist a lot, but I love this
quote.
And I think about Waverly when Ithink of it, it's someone has
found their vocation when theyfind something that keeps making
(02:58):
more of.
And what I love about Waverleyis his passion is so present in
who he is and he exudes that.
And I love the way he talksabout, you know, his impact is
helping others make an impactand doing that through
spirituality and the arts.
And he has such a, an indeliblebackground being trained as a
(03:18):
pastor, being a pastor for awhile.
And now being on this journeywhere he is discovering art, as
what he, I believe says is anaccessible medium for people who
are spiritually longing, who aretrying to have their
imaginations stoked and fired upabout a way to see the divine
(03:41):
through visual art.
It's an extraordinary, well, I'mgoing to be a pastor nerd and
say, it's an extraordinaryministry he has.
But I think it really is.
And, you know, there's the, uh,image of the starving artist who
creates all of this beautifulartwork.
And I think in a lot of ways,the church has been starving
because there's not been a placefor artists within it in such a
(04:03):
long time.
And it's hard to find churchesthat are really using certainly
the visual arts specifically asa serious component of their own
DNA.
And I think the church has losta lot by taking beauty, deeming
it heresy, and burning it at thestake and some sorts of ways
where it's like, where, whereare the visual arts in the
(04:25):
church?
Because we're so word centric,but that's part of the problem,
how beauty, I don't mean thisliterally, but when it comes to
visual arts, beauty being bannedby the church, because we became
so focused on words and intelling and not showing if
there's anything I remember formy sixth grade English teacher,
(04:46):
she always pressed us in ourwriting to show and not tell.
But I think that's the power ofvisual arts now is it shows
whether or not you it's, youdon't have to read some big book
to experience art firsthand andhow that impacts you.
The aesthetic power ofencountering a piece of art that
(05:08):
speaks to you beyond words,that's the power of poetry.
It's the power of fine art likepainting.
Maybe I should become a painter.
Maybe I'll just start.
Maybe I'll just go get a canvasand start splashing, paint all
over it and see what happens.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
That's a good place to start.
Yeah.
I mean, that'd be afraid.
Welcome to hyphenated life.
We invite you to join us on thisjourney to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
(05:45):
become more fully alive.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Thank you for being with us today.
Waverly, thank you for havingme.
I'm glad to be here.
Waverley Matthews is a graduateof the university of Virginia in
Charlottesville, the Cavalierswith a bachelor's in religious
studies, also a graduate ofunion theological seminary with
a master's in divinity, as wellas I left school of theology in
Denver with a master's oftheological studies and an
(06:23):
emphasis on the philosophy ofaesthetics.
He, uh, considers himself amissionary for the artist
gospel.
He's also an independenteducator who for the last seven
years has taught classes on theintersection of the arts and
spirituality.
Recently Waverley started apodcast called whammo art asylum
(06:43):
to explore the wisdom of thearts spirituality and the great
ideas and discover meaning andmission in a post religion
world.
So I want to start right awaythat this idea that we live in a
post religion world, what, whatexactly does that mean?
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Well, ever since Nicha came along and announced
the death of God, uh, he hasproved prophetic.
Uh, the West, especially Iespecially has become more and
more secularized andinstitutional religious
organizations have had less andless influence as a result.
And, you know, you can see it inchurch attendance, uh,
(07:21):
attendance at synagogues andtemples of, uh, of all sorts of
faiths are losing congregants,at least in the West, uh, and
particularly the North.
So you really see that in thiscommunity right here, Boulder,
it's one of the most secularcommunities in the United
States.
And of course, uh, Europe hasbeen secular for quite some
(07:41):
time.
There's so many empty chapelsand cathedrals on Sunday
morning.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Well, that's interesting.
So this idea that religion is athing of the past.
And yet I think if you walk downPearl street, our main tourist
attraction site here in Boulder,Colorado, you asked a hundred
people.
You'd probably get about 70% ofthem saying, uh, I'm spiritual,
but not religious.
How is religion important forspirituality?
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Well, I think a lot of people only associate
religion with dogmaticdeclarations from loud mouth
ministers, honestly, which iscompletely inaccurate.
Uh, for most religiousorganizations, people declare
themselves spiritual, but notreligious because they want to
(08:33):
have an experience of somethingbeyond themselves.
Something transcended.
They want to live for somethingmore than just their own
immediate needs.
And so they are spiritual andall of us are spiritual.
Religion has traditionally beena place where spiritual people
can gather as a community andshare their journey towards the
(08:56):
spiritual life together andencourage one another.
And that's really what religionat its best is all about.
You have a few bad applesthough, over the years.
And then of course, all thereligious Wars are done 17th,
18th century, and that sort ofthing.
But, but now you have a few badapples who, uh, pick it the
(09:16):
funerals of, uh, former soldiers, uh, and, and give everybody a
bad name and, uh, give allreligions a bad name.
And so it's, it's pretty sadthat people have given up on
religion because in theirjourney towards a spiritual
life, they really could beaided, I think most effectively
by joining a religious communityof some kind.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
What about, uh, religion's role in providing a
social and culture, culturalnarrative to a spiritual
experience, such as creationstories, um, uh, concepts like
that and, and how, how canreligion help, uh, prop up
spirituality in that sense as anexp as a human experience?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Well, religion has always been the repository of
our great myths and some peoplethink of a myth as simply an
untrue story, a lie, but mythsare stories that contain the
most profound truths ofexistence.
They're vital for our journeytowards meaning and purpose in
(10:19):
life.
And once we understand myths asembodying significant truths
about who we are and our placein the world, I think people
will be much more sympathetic towhat religious communities can
do because religious communitiesdo share these myths.
That's the place where, uh, wefind the most easily.
(10:41):
Now for me, I also believe thesemyths are contained in the arts
as well.
And that's why I try to sharethe arts.
And I, I use the arts because ofthe arts are an accessible
medium for people who are turnedoff by traditional religion.
They can still encounter thesemyths encounter and experience
of transcendence outside ofreligious communities.
(11:04):
But I still encourage people to,to find a community where they
can go along the journey withother people.
And that's usually found inreligions,
Speaker 1 (11:15):
The idea of art leading to transcendent
experience.
I happen to agree with youtranscendent experience for me
is the sort of end goal of, ofartistic expression and
experience.
Um, w what are some, what's anexample how that was formative
for where you are today in yourlife?
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Well, I'll tell you one of the most formative
experiences of my life.
I was in seminary inPhiladelphia, attended a
seminary for a couple of years.
There didn't graduate from ittransferred.
But while I was in Philadelphia,I heard about a special exhibit
of the Barnes foundationcollection, which is one of the
greatest, and post-impressionistcollections of art in the world.
(11:57):
And I didn't know anything aboutart.
I hadn't taken any art historycourses at that time.
I just knew I liked looking atit.
So I went to this exhibit and itwas as if I had gone to some
kind of spiritual revival andheard it, heard a message and
had this profound experiencealmost out of body experience.
And I didn't understand itthough.
(12:18):
I didn't have a way of, ofinterpreting it.
I didn't have the vocabulary orknew none of the history.
And so I left the museum thatday, sort of in bewilderment,
but knew that I encounteredsomething sacred.
I didn't know how I hadencountered it because the
seminary at the time I was, uh,the seminar I was attending at
(12:40):
the time, definitely taught thatrevelation only comes through
the written word and onlythrough a very specific
collection of the written word,namely the Bible.
And now I'd had this experienceof revelation outside of the
Bible, and I didn't know how tomake sense of it fast forward,
six more years.
Uh, that experience is stillwith me.
(13:01):
And I went back to seminary toget a master's of theological
studies and really look at thespiritual power of art.
And that's basically what Istudied when I got my master's
of theological studies.
I had to figure it out and then,uh, gave myself basically an art
history education by teachingour classes.
That's how I, I learned.
(13:23):
And from that, I really realizedthat art is an expression of a
profound experience of theartist.
All revelation is interpretedexperience, though.
Okay.
It's filtered through the personwho experiences it.
And so the greater the artist iswhether they're writing it down
(13:44):
in the form of scripture orliterature or poetry, or whether
they're expressing it throughmusic or dance or film, or
through painting or sculptingthe greater the artist, the more
accurate they, the art reflectsthe experience.
And so that's why we're drawn tocertain art.
(14:05):
And it's the great art it'srecognized as the great art.
And that's why we also call itthe Canon.
We have a Canon of scripture,but we have a Canon of art as
well.
And it's the art that's in ourgreatest museums.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
So I, I love this idea of art being reflective of
transcendent experience, being a, almost a, a language and a
pallet, if you will, for visualart, um, how can the artist's
palette be enhanced by theirunderstanding of everything that
came before it?
(14:38):
So you mentioned a couple oftimes you immerse yourself in
art history in the way you didthat was to create a series of
classes on that.
How has art history enhancesomeone's ability to experience
and create art at a spirituallevel?
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Well, I think it just helps people understand it at a
deeper level.
It's equivalent to what Istudied in seminary, church
history and theology, thehistory of theology.
When you trace the way we thinkthe way we experience our world
over the course of history, itjust gives you a better
(15:14):
perspective on your ownexperience and helps you
understand your own experiencesbetter.
And so in that regard, I thinkan artist's understanding of
themselves and their own journeyis enhanced.
And that I think eventuallycomes through their art.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
So knowledge is, is a critical component to the
equation, right?
I, I, I believe I've actuallyheard you say, and I can't
remember who it's attributed to,but wisdom is knowledge plus
perspective.
Um, in wisdom is a prettycritical component, I think, to,
(15:51):
uh, to human experience at aspiritual level here on our
planet earth.
Um, the, this idea of, ofartists creation being divinely
inspired as if they're, there isa concept of a metaphor of like
(16:12):
a divine antenna.
It's you expound on that concepta little bit, you know, I've
heard in, in performing arts,the idea of flow state, um,
where you just sort of tap intothat transcendent wavelength, so
to speak, um, artists that arewhose work is now a part of that
(16:37):
Canon that you mentioned thatthat provides almost a whole, a
whole spiritual narrativethrough art, to our spiritual
experiences here on earth.
How, where, where do you, whatare some thoughts around that
idea of those artists andcreators being divinely
inspired, being plugged into adivine wavelength, so to speak?
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Well, a lot of artists have expressed that they
feel something channelingthrough them when they're
creating art, they hadn't, andsometimes it's defined as a flow
state in the flow state.
Many people don't accept theidea of divine inspiration, but
(17:22):
what is being channeled then issomething deep within them,
perhaps something in theunconscious, perhaps, uh, the
collective unconscious has CarlYoung put it, uh, the archetypes
that sort of are wired into ourbrain, that we don't have ready
access to at the consciouslevel, but through the creative
process, we can go pass theconscious level to the
unconscious and allow sort of,um, those deeper, uh, important
(17:48):
myths that live within us tocome out and express themselves
artistically.
So we don't necessarily have tospeak only about divine
inspiration.
It can be, uh, channelingsomething that's deep within us
that we normally don't haveaccess to, but it's still is it
feels to the person expressingit as if something beyond their
(18:12):
self is, is, uh, wanting toexpress itself through them.
And so that's why I used theterm revelation, whether it's
coming from some transcendentrealm, metaphysical realm, or
whether it's coming fromsomeplace deep within us, it's
still revelation because it'snot something that's readily
available to us at our consciouslevel.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Do you feel like there are any kind of specific
references in the Bible speakingspecifically of Christianity
that, that emphasize thesignificance of the creative
experience, either throughcreation, um, humans creating or
humans experiencing creationthat sort of might help bridge
(18:55):
that gap between the westernized, um, giant wall between sacred
and secular.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
I think we are closest to source God, whatever
you want to call it when we arein the creative process, because
that is the primal act.
It's the very beginning of theBible.
It's our introduction into whoGod divinity is.
Divinity is pure creation.
And, uh, I'm a fan of, uh, thephilosopher, the Catholic Jesuit
(19:28):
tow yard dish Chardon, whobelieve that God has always
creating creation has neverstopped.
You know, there arefundamentalist groups that
believe no creation happenedonce.
And, and it was long time ago,like 6,000 years ago.
And, and, and that sort ofthing, but obviously
scientifically, when we look atwhat's happening, this creation
(19:48):
going on all the time, you know,look at evolution, that's an
example of creation.
And we participate in thatevolution, that creative process
to process theologians believethat God is constantly evolving
and expanding.
And, um, and we contribute tothat process through our own
experiences, God adorbs, ourexperiences, our creativity.
(20:09):
And I love that quote fromWilliam Blake, uh, eternity is
in love with the productions oftime.
Um, when we create, we areparticipating in a divine act,
um, we are becoming godlikeourselves.
We're tapping into our owndivinity when we create
something.
(20:29):
And that's why so many peopleexperience, uh, art and, and
creating art as a spiritualexperience.
You know, I know a lot ofartists who don't believe in
God, but they say, but myspirituality is my art.
It's, it's the creative act.
That's I feel that other,whatever it is, and Henry
(20:51):
Miller, the writer, uh, he said,uh, I don't know if he was a
believer in any kind oftraditional God, but he
definitely believed he waschanneling something greater.
He referred to it as it speakingthrough him.
So all artists experience thatand we experienced it.
We don't have to be artists.
We can experience it when wecreate something ourselves.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
So this idea that the divine can be found in, in every
one of us.
Um, I know for me that, that,that speaks, that preaches as
they say to me.
Um, and I think part of thecall, if you've experienced that
in you, you know, what that isto feel you want others to feel
(21:34):
that as well.
And I think that that, thatstarts bridging the concepts of
evangelism and witnessing, andthis idea of divine witnessing,
recognizing, and trying to bringout the divine in others and
everyone around you.
Um, what are, what are you doingtoday, um, in your life?
Um, what, what kind of pursuitsare you doing to, to work
(21:58):
towards, uh, helping others torecognize, learn about and
experience this opportunity forchanneling the divine within
them, whether it's throughexperiencing art or whether it's
through creating art or learningabout it?
Well, I definitely do it throughmy writing.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
You were teaching, but that is to a local
community.
And that's why I started thepodcast.
I wanted to get that message outto a broader audience.
And the web is a fantastic toolfor that.
And so I've started the podcastand then I'm also going to
broaden out my audience for myclasses.
And based on the feedback,people really do feel like their
(22:41):
perspective is expanding as theyengage with the arts and as they
learn about arts.
And of course, like you said,um, wisdom is knowledge plus
perspective as their perspectivebroadens and their knowledge, uh
, their capacity to make wisedecisions in life and to come up
with better solutions tosocietal issues, uh, is expanded
(23:04):
as well.
And so my impact that I want tomake through my podcast and
through my classes is to helpother people make their impact,
whatever that is.
And if I can be a part of thatand help them along the way,
then, um, it's been worth it,
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Absolutely Waverly, Matthews, WEMA art asylum, where
you can explore the wisdom ofthe art spirituality and the
great ideas and discover meaningand mission in a post religion
world.
I want to kind of close today'sconversation here with, you
know, the pervasive thing that'shappening in on, on the planet
today is the COVID-19 pandemic.
(23:42):
Um, and obviously that'simpacted every of life.
And the arts to experiencing arecreating art, um, in this world
where all that has been changedso dramatically, what have you
seen happening or experiencehappening in the world of
spirituality and the art and thearts that's making you come more
(24:04):
alive?
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Well, seeing creative responses, particularly among
entrepreneurs, and I considerentrepreneurs, artists of
business, they create somethingnew, whether it's value,
service, whatever it is, aproduct, uh, they have to be
very creative artisticallyspeaking.
So I'm excited to see about theresponses.
(24:27):
The creative imagination hasbeen sparked through this
because, um, traditionalbusinesses have suffered and
owners of these businesses havehad to become very imaginative
or they have to close.
There's no choice, same withartists of all kinds trying to
sell their work.
And it's very difficult when youcan't get in front of the face
of a buyer and show them yourwork.
(24:48):
And so they're having to be very, um, show some ingenuity and
that's good for them.
It's good for everybody.
And I think culture as a wholegrows most during crises because
we have to think differently torespond to it effectively.
And so I see this pandemic, um,tragic as it is for many people
(25:12):
as a great opportunity also forculture broadly speaking to
advance itself as well.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
That's awesome.
I think I, I agree with that100%, um, for harmony
contentment, peace andstillness, the trials and
tribulations of adversity mustfill us.
Thank you Waverly for being onwith us today, here at
hyphenated life.
Again, you can find his podcast.
(25:41):
WEMA art asylum, uh, everySunday at 10:30 AM, wherever you
get your podcasts.
And, uh, so thank you again forbeing with us.
Very glad to be here.
Thank you so much for inviting
Speaker 3 (26:18):
Hyphenated life.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
There's a production of pine street church in
Boulder, Colorado hosted byAndrew Doherty and David
[inaudible].
Speaker 3 (26:25):
The podcast is produced by Phil Norman and
executive producer, Alexi Moldenspecial thanks to our guests
today and the Leal Hill trust ofBoulder, Colorado.
(27:12):
[inaudible].
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