November 5, 2020 • 45 mins
In this episode we talk about the origins of Christian mysticism, the significance of Yoga in how it can pertain to Christian practices, as well as our guest's forthcoming book about these topics.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Do you think Jesus did yoga?
Maybe he led some classes.
Um,
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I wonder what his favorite shakra was,
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Right?
I'm sure he had one.
Well, he had seven c hakras, butI'm sure h e
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Dear Jesus of all the seven chakras,
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I honestly, I mean, a wonder yoga has been around
since before Jesus's timesomebody was doing yoga probably
in the Holy land and the yearzero.
Right.
I wonder if he did yoga.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well, I w we didn't get into this day, but I mean,
Jesus has an basically he was anEastern spiritual master,
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Right.
Visited by three Kings from,
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And we've institutionalized Jesus so much
that we're losing out on thekind of spiritual wisdom figure
that he truly was and in theEastern vein.
And, um, you know, it reminds meof the, there's a book called
Jesus before Christianity, byAlbert Nolan.
It says, Jesus, didn't come tofound a church.
(01:03):
Jesus came to start a movement.
And I think that is also part ofwhat the, um, the rediscovery or
the reclamation project that isyoga and Christianity that's
going on, that season's involvedin.
And, um, I, I think that's amessage that church in America
certainly needs to hear and, andinternalize and embody today.
(01:26):
I'm David[inaudible] and I amAndrew Dardy on today's podcast.
We're talking with the ReverendSusan Springer and Episcopal
priest here in Boulder, Coloradoabout yoga and Christianity at a
time when we're trying to findways to integrate our full human
lives into what it means to be aspiritual person in the world
today, Susan is the rector ofst.
(01:49):
John's Episcopal right down thestreet here from the pine street
church podcast studio.
And she and I, um, have struckup a friendship that really kind
of developed around thepandemic.
I actually called her to talkabout what their plans were for
a physical reopening, uh, postCOVID-19.
(02:11):
And we have been, uh, on ajourney of discovery, I would
say, um, with our congregationsaround, uh, issues of race.
And we've launched an educationand action initiative between
st.
John's Episcopal and pinestreet, church of Boulder, uh,
to figure out, uh, you know, toexamine our own white privilege,
our own, um, experiences ofbreathing the air of whiteness
(02:36):
and America.
And so we're on that path, um,together as congregations to
figure out how to be, um,anti-racist congregations and to
do good work in the world.
So that, uh, led us to, um,bring Susan on hyphenated life
and also to talk about her newbook, yoga and Christianity
coming out next year.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I think I remember, I think I was there first time you
met her, it was about threeyears ago at the good Friday day
long marathon of sermons.
Everyone got the seven lastwords of Christ.
Everyone got one word orsomething, and you're like,
where's s t.
John's.
I was like, I'll show you whenwe w alked down there, i t was a
(03:18):
little icy out and we werewalking fast, got there out of
breath.
A nd I was running late.
She, well, yeah, she wasstanding outside and Andrew
you're on.
It's like, and that was a veryexciting, and I was like, boy,
I'm glad I d on't have to speakin front of people right now.
C ause we were, we were hustlingdown there.
(03:38):
So it was a little winded, Ithink.
U m, I think that was, I thinkthat was the first time you met
her.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
That's right?
Yeah, it was good Friday of, um,that was probably 2017 or 2018.
Something like that.
Yeah.
Christianity is an incarnationalreligion at the heart of
Christianity is what does itmean to be a human being in the
world who follows God in the wayof Jesus for those on the
(04:07):
Christian path?
I think it's really important toreclaim the incarnational heart
of what Christianity startedabout, uh, which is the scandal,
the scandal of God becoming ahuman being.
And somewhere along the waywe've located, as we talked
about today, we've located thegospel, uh, in the brain or
(04:30):
between the ears and have madeit a head trip.
And I think what's reallyimportant about what Susan
Springer is bringing to theChristian community in the
Christian conversation is theimportance of reclaiming the box
.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
[inaudible]
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Welcome to hyphenated life.
We invite you to join us on thisjourney to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
become more fully alive
Speaker 3 (05:20):
[inaudible]
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Today.
We're so delighted to have theReverend Susan Springer, who is
an Episcopal priest.
She is in her ninth year asrector of st.
John's in Boulder, Colorado.
Susan came to the priesthoodfrom a life as an Alaskan oil
filled worker, a trail builder,a local politician and author
(05:40):
and small business owner.
She is presently under contractwriting a book that explores the
intersection of yoga philosophywith progressive mystical
Christian theology, and whichmakes the case for churches to
bring yoga into their worshipspaces.
So is what we're going to betalking about with Reverend
Susan Springer today, Susan,welcome to hyphenated life and
(06:03):
thank you for joining.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Oh, thank you for having me, Andrew.
It is a delight
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Thought that we could start off today by talking a
little bit about how your bookcame to be.
Um, I know that it's still beingwritten and will be coming out
at some point, but how, how didyou kind of, uh, come about
writing a book about yoga andChristianity?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Well, I was in a couple of car accidents and, um,
I was no longer able to roadbike, um, without pain or back
country ski or do some of thethings that I had really enjoyed
doing.
And I had always poo-pooed yogaas too slow.
Um, and uh, I thought I hadpretty good flexibility, pretty
(06:49):
good strength, pretty goodbalance.
Finally, I took a yoga class ina bike shop no less on a Monday
night.
And, um, within the first 10minutes I had self-corrected on
all three of those assumptions.
I was neither flexible norstrong, nor did I have good
balance.
(07:10):
And, um, you know, thatrealization kind of hooked me.
I would say about a year after Ibegan practicing maybe a little
bit longer than that.
Um, during the closing portionof our Monday night yoga class
during Shavasana or the corpseor resting pose, I had the most
(07:32):
profound experimental experienceof my life.
And, um, you know, I hadn'tsigned up for that, right.
I had just signed up to keep,keep my body in shape as my, um,
car accident, injury healed.
And, uh, I just saw yoga asmaybe an interim measure.
So I was really blown away fromthat point.
(07:54):
I began to see, um, parallels orintersections or meeting places
between yoga philosophy and whatI call progressive mystical
Christian theology.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Wow.
So this is deeply personal toyou obviously.
And when you talk about, um,mystical, progressive
Christianity, could you say alittle bit more about what that
means to you and put it in awider context and in, in this
sort of conversation?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Sure.
I'll start with the Episcopalchurch, but I think what I, what
I have to say about the way weregard scripture will probably,
um, ring true for many of yourlisteners.
So in the 15th century, 16thcentury, Richard i n the church
of England, u m, really capturedthe way Episcopalians regard.
(08:47):
U m, Holy scripture, he saideverything necessary for
salvation is contained in Holyscripture, but everything in
Holy scripture is necessary forsalvation.
Much of the Bible ishistorically conditioned.
Not every sentence of scripturecarries equal weight.
And so a Pisco paleon i s bringto the reading and study of
(09:08):
scripture.
U m, reason human reason.
We have what you might call ahigh anthropology or a high
regard for our own intellects.
And, u m, you know, we believein kind of mid rushing things
out, hashing things out,especially the difficult s
ayings of Jesus rather thansaying, well, this particular
(09:31):
text obviously means this orthat.
Um, so we give some latitudes.
So in that regard we would becalled I think progressive,
certainly socially.
Um, I'm just going to go out ona limb and guess that a majority
of the Pisco paleon are somewhatsocially progressive that said
(09:53):
we are not a homogenousdenomination.
There are very conservativeEpiscopalians, socially and
politically, and very liberaland everybody in between.
So I certainly wouldn't want tocast us as a one size fits all,
but we are progressive in that.
We welcome all those voices tothe table.
U m, gosh, there's a lot more Ican say about progressive
(10:16):
theology.
It is, I guess if you've readany Richard Rohr, it is what I
would call a humble stance,right?
Like, like the church of my, Iwas born into the Episcopal
church.
U m, the church of my childhoodwas like many mainline
denominations, a church thatjust assumed we had it all.
(10:42):
And why wouldn't you want to belike us because we have it all
and the church because of i tsdwindling membership.
And now I'm speaking about thechurch
Speaker 2 (10:53):
In general, the Christian Church,
Speaker 4 (10:55):
You know, we've been obliged to become a little bit
more humble and that's a goodthing to recognize that we are
not the exclusive holders of thetruth that God reveals the
divine, self-taught alldifferent denominations, all
different human beings in alldifferent ways.
So that's another element ofwhat I would call progressive
(11:17):
theology.
Mr.
Cole simply put is the premisethat any human being has the
ability, the power, thebirthright to have a first hand
direct experience of God
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Well-put yeah, I certainly connect in my own
American Baptist churches.
USA tradition have been moreinfluenced by Catholic monks
probably than any Baptisttheologian in my, in my life.
So when you're talking aboutprogressive Christian theology,
there's so many connectingpoints even between our two
(11:58):
denominational traditions.
U m, one of the things that isbubbling up, and of course we
are in a, what many people callthe Boulder bubble, right?
The people's Republic ofBoulder, Colorado.
So when we're talking about someof this in the realm of mystical
and Christian theology, I'm sortof curious, because I know the
sort of terminology of, ofChristian yoga has kind of
(12:22):
bubbled up over the last manyyears.
Um, I'm kind of curious aboutyour experience of, you know,
where you find, u m, t hoseconnecting points between, u h,
C hristian scripture, as yousaid, and yoga philosophy.
I get a little cheeky sometimes,and we'll say, you know, we take
the Bible seriously, but notliterally.
(12:44):
So Jesus said, I am the gate.
It doesn't mean he was one, youknow, so when you talk, when you
talk about that progressiveaspect of Christian theology,
where do you find, especially asan Episcopal priest, u m, yo u
know, in your own voc ation, those connecting points between
Christian scripture and yogaphilosophy, u m, in a way that
(13:05):
says, you know, what are someexamples in which they say the
same thing?
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Well, I, before I answer that, I want to go back
to Christian yoga, um, becausethere's, there's a couple of
different ways to define that.
And I, and I think it'simportant to distinguish, um,
what we do at st John's and whatI'm writing about and what I'm
not writing about.
(13:30):
And I'm, you know, I'm just inthe process of discovery, but,
but what I've learned so far isthat there are Christians who
appreciate the exercise, if youwill, the physical and mental,
um, fitness that yoga can offer,but who are really uncomfortable
(13:54):
with the fact that yoga is notinherently a Christian thing,
yoga, in fact, predatesreligion, per se.
It has certainly been associatedwith Hinduism and Buddhism far,
far longer than it ever has beenwith Judaism or Christianity.
(14:18):
Um, but it is, it is simply aphilosophical and spiritual
practice with eight limbs.
And do not ask me to recite whatthey are, um, what they are.
Thank you.
We'll take a commercial breakright now.
Um, I totally lost my train ofthought.
(14:39):
Oh, so anyway, um, we, I, Idon't seek, we don't seek to
kind of sanitize or Christianizeyoga, and that's a really
important distinction.
Um, we endeavor to havetremendous respect for the
standalone integrity of yogaphilosophy.
(15:02):
Um, I have no interest incollapsing, the two great
traditions of yoga andChristianity or yoga and
anything into each other, right.
Both have their own standaloneintegrity.
And I think they, they will sailinto the future just fine that
way they don't w w they cancomplete and compliment one
another, but they don't needeach other in order to stand
(15:26):
upright.
So that's a really importantdistinction, and there are some
people I could, could call outin a good way.
Um, I, my friend, my command ofFrench is shameful, but it's, um
, father dish Shanae, D E C H aN E T, who wrote in the 1950s in
(15:49):
France and wrote in the bookcalled Christian yoga.
What's curious, and I know thisis an aside, but I'll, I'll get
to your question.
What's curious is that, youknow, we fussed today that yoga
has become so westernized and sosuch a product of white affluent
Americans.
And, um, essentially in 1956,they Shanae was saying exactly
(16:14):
the same thing you was like,wow, Europeans just treat
treated as an exercise program.
So, so I guess from the timeyoga has become westernized, um,
practitioners and leaders havestruggled to make sure the two
traditions retain theirindependent integrity.
(16:34):
U m, what else do I want to say?
Beat Griffiths, who was a RomanCatholic priest in India, u m,
had a Benedictine Hindumonastery.
Um, so he was another Wayfinder.
If you will, someone who showedthe rest of us the way there are
(16:55):
some ignitions who are someJesuits who follow, um, the
spiritual exercises of Ignatiuswho also marry yoga philosophy.
And finally, there's a groupcalled Christians practicing
yoga.
They have a website, all ofthose that I named, um, and it's
(17:16):
certainly not limited to those Inamed, but all of them, I named
seemed to really respect, um,the independence of the two
traditions that said there areother groups who I will not
name, u m, who have endeavoredto sanitize yoga, u h, replacing
(17:36):
the s anscript posture names,the Sanskrit, Austin, and names
with, u m, Christian ones.
U m, in order to, as I read it,make nervous practitioners feel
bit better, u m, and feel lessnaughty.
So, y ou k now, I don't thinkthat's necessary when we
(17:57):
practice yoga in the church.
We're not worshiping Hindu gods.
We might talk about a Hindu God,but it certainly isn't with the
aim of getting a Pisca paleon,you know, to turn to Ganash or
Shiva or somebody else.
So, anyway, um, what are thepoints of, what are the
parallels?
(18:18):
I don't know where to begin.
Um, let me talk a little bit,and I'm going to talk only in a
general way, because that is theupcoming chapter in my book.
I am just about done withchapter two and about ready to
launch into chapter three, whichspecifically addresses the
places in Christian scriptureand the places in, u h, Baton
(18:42):
Julie's, yoga sutras, or theBhagavad Gita, or the Upanishads
where yoga philosophy andChristian scripture and theology
are saying the same thing.
So in a general way, once youdevelop the eyes to read the
Bhagavad Gita or the upon ashots or other, u m, texts,
(19:03):
other yoga, philosophical textswith those eyes, it's like, you
see the parallels everywhere,right?
It's like y ou're mushroomhunting in the forest.
And once you learn what anedible mushroom looks like,
they're jumping out of theforest floor at you.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
I, I, I'm curious, uh, th this,this idea of, of yoga and
Christianity and yoga being anEastern concept rather than a
Christian concept, or, uh, youknow, coming from a different
religion.
One of the reasons we startedthis podcast hyphenated life was
to try and break down some ofthose barriers that limit, u h,
(19:42):
experiencing life to thefullest.
And we're about to embark on a,well, we actually have just
begun embarking on a f allseries here at pine street
church, exploring differentelements of wellness, u m, and
working towards the idea thatwellness is a b alanced act
between heart, soul, mind, andbody.
And I find, u m, I wonderhistorically, I think you could
(20:07):
easily say that Christianity hasdone a great job of not just
ignoring the body, but, u m,saying that it's, it's off
limits kind of thing.
And so, to me, it makes greatsense.
He takes something that, thatpredates religions, you know,
they figured something out.
U m, but once you startincorporating the idea of
physical wellness, you realizeit's connected to, you know, the
(20:29):
wellness of the mind, body andspirit.
And, u m, I'm wondering in lieuof not having any other real, u
m, option, is there a way thatwe can just say this is needed
here in the Christian experienceand in America?
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
So, so as I work on this book, I kind of feel like
she's a lover and I visit her,you know, I sneak away and visit
her whenever I can.
And this morning, really, reallyearly, I was working on the
ending of chapter two.
A nd the last section, u m, inthat chapter that I just started
(21:12):
mapping out a bit is, u m, o uru nease with the human body,
right.
We talk about, u m, you know,Jesus says, this is my body in
the Eucharist, u h, u h, givenfor you, but we would never
think of saying, well, Jesus,here's my body given for you.
(21:34):
I mean, isn't this, u h, don'twe wish reciprocity, isn't this
a relationship in any otherrelationship?
Isn't there reciprocity, but weget all nervous.
Oh, y ou couldn't possibly wantmy body.
U m, and you know, we talk aboutbeing made in the image of God,
the image and likeness.
(21:54):
We talk about the body ofChrist, the church, we talk
about embodied incarnationaltheology and on and on and on
and on.
And we just get very squeamish,right?
We can't, we made Mary a Virgin,even though the Greek text says
she was a young woman.
Um, you know, and on the onehand you could argue that we
(22:17):
wanted to kind of hash out Jesus's D NA, hi s p aternal DNA.
But I think it's because wecan't fathom God mucking about
under the covers.
I mean, not to be disrespectful,but it's, you know, we were
given these, these as one.
Oh, golly, let me think.
Oh, it was, it was dai shanay again, I think, you know, these
(22:38):
radiant luminous bodies, justlike God gave God's son and, and
we have spent millenniaapologizing for them.
I mean, I think it goes back to,u m, Ne oplatonism and, and the
(23:02):
scandal that, that God, thedivine self would deign the muck
about in human flesh, right?
It's sweaty and messy andimperfect, and it makes funny
noises.
And, and so we divorce andEpiscopalians have, have been
famous for this.
(23:23):
We divorced the body from therest of our religious
experience.
I mean, we have the, we, welaugh at ourselves, you know,
the frozen chosen rats, that'sthe nickname for a Pisco
Balian's you can explain it thatwe are an intellectual
denomination.
(23:44):
I mean, it's why scientists finda welcome home.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with that, but I think
what yoga offers is a way as yousaid, to bring mind and body and
heart, and that's what it meansto have a relationship of
reciprocity with Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I love what you're saying about the, the
incarnational aspect ofChristianity.
And you mentioned Richard Rohr alittle bit earlier, and he,
several years ago, you said, ifyou think about the human body
and you wonder about where thegospel resides in the human body
, uh, typically it's between theears.
(24:25):
You know, it's a, it's a, it's ahead trip.
And so kind of what you'rebringing together with yoga
philosophy and Christianity.
I mean, I think it's so powerfulbecause, uh, you know, even with
if therapy these days, right, wedo cognitive therapy, but, um,
I've been really curious latelyabout, uh, body energy
(24:46):
management.
I've been reading about the, Ithink, seven energy centers of
the body, right.
With the chakras.
So when, when you, when youbegan to combine yoga philosophy
and Christianity, what is your,uh, sort of angle of vision, I
guess, about how to, how toreclaim or reengage, uh, the
(25:07):
body, um, with our Christianpractice, um, when we are so, as
Richard Rohr says again, locatedbetween the ears.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Yeah.
You know, it's, it's, I don't, Idon't have a ready answer for
that.
Andrew.
I don't have a formulaic answer.
Um, the first thing that comesto mind is that people need to
(25:37):
have a personal heart experienceof Jesus Christ for themselves.
Otherwise I can, I can makecompelling arguments.
You can make compellingarguments, we can use tremendous
fabulous examples.
(25:59):
Um, but, and this is back toRichard Rory, you know, he said
something like, um, we can tellpeople what it is they are to do
and how it is they are to live,but until they have had that
personal mystical experience ofChrist, it's all going to reside
between the ears.
(26:20):
Uh, it doesn't translate.
So I guess my hope and my prayeris that people practicing yoga
in the church, in the worshipspace begin to have such a
personal heart or mysticalexperience.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah.
I, I, I'm fascinated byChristian.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Um, it feels like, uh, like the, the last, the last
portion of a once, you know,much broader concept of what
Christianity is.
Um, and we've, we've tried toembrace that here at pine street
church the past few years, verymuch so with Celtic Christianity
and, and re rediscovering thehumanness, you know, um, heaven
(27:06):
on earth, the, the idea thatthis does count, this is, you
know, this life that we'reliving, we should live it to the
fullest.
And you've mentioned thatmystical experience.
I like the idea, the term, thetranscendent experience, um,
that I think it's, again, goingback to why we started this
podcast is, uh, it felt like somany opportunities for
(27:30):
transcendent experience weredefined outside the boundaries
of what was allowed to besacred.
And, um, so I don't know if youcould talk about that a little
bit.
You kind of have been talkingabout it, but this idea that any
transcendent experience issacred, no matter the, the root
of it, no matter the origin ofit and that it is, it is valid
(27:51):
and worthwhile.
And I think, and, and, and maybein speaking to the mystical,
mystical traditions, how theymay, um, if we, if we re circle
and refocus on some of those,they may enable us to be open to
, um, transcendent experience nomatter where it comes from to
being, um, worthwhile andcertainly as sacred as any
Speaker 4 (28:16):
Well, you know, the news flash is that God works in
the world and not just, youknow, in the, in the pews
surrounded by stain glass.
Right.
And I think that many of us havea particular age.
I mean, I can't speak forsomeone who's 30.
(28:37):
I can only speak for someonewho's 60 ish And beyond.
Um, but we were raised that thechurch building was Holy
unconsecrated space, and that'swhere you went to meet Jesus.
(29:00):
And I don't recall ever beingtaught that I couldn't meet
Jesus anywhere else.
I mean, I remember as a kid inmy rowboat on the Harbor of
Rockport, Maine meeting Jesusquite readily, um, I didn't
recognize it at the time becausenobody gave me the language and
(29:21):
nobody gave me permission.
And I wonder how my life wouldhave been more tethered to
Christ from start to finish.
If somebody had given me thelanguage of mystical experience
as a child, I knew what I wasexperiencing, but I didn't have
(29:47):
a label for it.
And to the extent that theChristian Church I'll move
beyond the Episcopal church hereto the expense, to the extent
that the Christian Church hasnot done that we have failed our
members.
(30:07):
Um, and we have ill-equippedthem to dissolve the bounds
between sacred and secular.
We have ill-equipped them tomake all of life, all of
experience every week, day,every hour sacred.
And, you know, Jesus saying,take off your shoes here, the
(30:32):
bushes on fire, you know, you'restanding on Holy ground.
That's not just an interestingstory.
It's an important theologicalstatement about what God thinks
of God's creation.
So yoga can assist with changingthat and culturated unhelpful
(31:00):
worldview, but it isn't the onlything.
Um, w what's interesting,there's a, there's an Episcopal
priest and, and, uh, I don'tknow what you'd call them.
I guess, scholar ofcongregational development,
whose name I'm in a butcherDwight Sheil.
It's like Z S C H E I L E.
(31:24):
And in his book, the people ofthe way rediscovering or
discovering Episcopal identity,you know, he, he, he says very
clearly at the beginning, gotGod's working out there, folks
in the community beyond thedoors, beyond the double red
doors, beyond the stained glass,u m, it's up to you to go out
(31:48):
into the community and see whatGod is doing and to join God
there, that's the invitation.
And I feel like churches whobring yoga into the worship
space are in essence doing that,right.
We're looking at the meteoricrise of the popularity of yoga
in the United States and saying,huh, I wonder if God's in that.
(32:12):
I wonder if God could be up tosomething.
I wonder if we should takenotice, maybe the answer is now,
but at least it bears ourexploration, at least at bears,
our attention.
Did that address your questionat all?
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, and you hit on this conceptthat I also also find intriguing
is sort of reverse course of thewhole l ifelong of Christianity,
which, you know, there, t here'san element of b ringing it out
into the world, right.
Making disciples of Christ, etcetera, but it feels like this
day and age, u m, we need to, weneed to reverse that course and
(32:53):
bring the world back into thechurch because it feels like
something got left behind.
Um, y ou know, and I think, youknow, a w onder these days that
we're i n right now have madethese things even more apparent
as the churches are closed down,literally don't have that four
walls and a roof and stainedglass and red doors to go into,
(33:14):
to have our sacred experiences.
And now more than ever, I thinkwe can recognize how critical it
is to, you know, open our, openour eyes, minds and hearts and
bodies to everything that theworld has to offer.
You know, and I, I, I love thatyou're writing this book.
I love that this is a passion ofyours.
I feel like we're kindredspirits here an d i n many ways,
(33:37):
for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yeah.
I, you know, and Susan, that'sreally great that you brought
that up again, David.
I mean, Susan, when you talkedearlier about, this is my body
and in talking about theincarnational nature of
Christianity, it's the, it's theheart of, of, uh, what we're
about and who, you know, Jesusshowed us the way to be.
Um, and when you talk about thisis my body, I know that, you
(34:01):
know, for your, uh,denominational tradition, it's
been, uh, sort of difficult,right.
To in this kind of quarantinetime, uh, where the Eucharist
is.
So front and center for theEpiscopalian tradition.
Uh, could you talk a little bitabout, this is my body, uh, in
terms of how that has, um, youknow, been part of how you've
(34:24):
navigated things as an Episcopalpriest with offering Eucharist
online or not being able tooffer Eucharist online?
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Well, I tried to offer you Krista online, but,
um, my Eucharistic theology wasa bit unorthodox for, um,
management, our diocese andFisher.
And, um, yeah, so that didn'thappen.
Um, but it was very Richard Rohrish.
(34:53):
Um, it was, it was the Christ ondown, right?
If we, if we read scripture thatsaid, Jesus can walk through
walls where his disciples arecowering in fear on a locked
room, I'm guessing that thereisn't Christ can transmit divine
(35:13):
power, energy, blessing, andgrace over the internet.
I mean, I'm not much of a techperson, but I'm just all gamble
that, and, you know, as diversea denomination as we are
theologically, there aretraditions.
There is, uh, we are a religiousinstitution and, um, we do have
(35:35):
to conform to the, uh,prevailing theology.
So that didn't happen.
Um, so we did a work around, uh,that feels actually by
comparison, very logisticallycomplicated, but given the, the
(35:57):
constraints imposed upon us byour denomination and given the
constraints imposed upon us andeverybody else by the pandemic,
we are not going to gather forcommunion to share communion in
the church.
Uh, before the pandemic, we, wehad enough people worshiping so
(36:17):
that it would take like sixchurch services a weekend in
order to accommodate everybody.
Right.
Um, and even if everybody felt,not everybody feels comfortable
coming into a building.
So right out of the gate, you'renot being inclusive.
And inclusivity is, is one of myc ongregation's core values.
So it just doesn't work.
(36:38):
So what we've come up with is away to take the body out into
the world.
U m, we've established eightsatellite congregations that s
tretch from North Denver andBroomfield in the South to
Longmont and Lyons in the Northto Erie a nd Lewisville,
(37:02):
Lafayette, little bit to theEast.
And we have 40 volunteers whohave stepped forward to be, u m,
w ho've been trained asEucharistic ministers.
They will carry t his sacramentout into communities and people
will gather in parks a ndparking lots on porches.
(37:25):
I'm trying to think if there areother creative places that folks
have found, I think it's mostlyparks open spaces, one front
porch, and they will sharecommunion in smaller groups.
U h, and as I was t h thisSunday, the 4th of October is
the first time we will do that.
(37:47):
So it's a great adventure, agreat experiment.
And I wrote to my congregationin great detail about it.
And I said, if it feels strangeto you that that's such a Holy
sacrament, isn't happening inthe church, try to remember that
(38:08):
the first meal or one of thefirst meals that Jesus shared
with people was on the grass ofa h illside or whatever dinner
table he happened to t here,there was no consecrated space.
Yo u k n ow, nobody cameunconsecrated th e s pace and
stuck a sign in the ground.
It was the presence and theintent, you know, David back to
(38:30):
the heart, right?
It was the heart of peopletogether with heart of Jesus
that made it consecrated spacethat made it Holy ground.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
I was thinking a minute ago about the lines of,
um, from Elizabeth Barrett,Browning, you know, who said,
earth is crammed with heaven andevery common Bush of fire with
God, but only the one who takesoff his or her shoes sees it,
the rest sit around and p layblackberries.
(39:02):
T here's t his l ike, you know,just thinking about the
communion, the communion n essof our world that does go beyond
those red doors.
You mentioned to go a minute agoand, you know, in thinking
about, and Susan you've, you'vestated this here and there, but,
you know, we're all especially asort of, u h, professional
(39:23):
Christians, so to speak who havebeen lamenting the, u h, you
know, what some sociologists ofreligion called the hemorrhaging
of church membership since the1960s, when you kind of getting
back to the y oga philosophyagain, when you think about, u
h, you know, folks going out thedoor of the church, and yet
again, Americans l ove theiryoga.
(39:46):
And in this meteoric rise, youdescribed a minute ago about, u
h, u h, yoga practice.
W hat, what might you say, u m,about that parallel, you know, o
f folks leaving the church, soto speak since the sixties and
this rise truly in, in yogapractice in the United States?
Speaker 4 (40:08):
Well, there's something at the intersection
and that's part of the aim of myresearch.
There are crossing trajectories,uh, in my lifetime, the
Episcopal church has shrunk byhalf.
We are today, half the size wewere when I was born in 1958.
(40:34):
And not exactly that over thatsame period of time, but roughly
right.
It's kinda hard to say, um,okay.
It was 1972 when yoga reallybegan to catch on or 1981 or
not, it's from the research I'vedone to date.
It just isn't that precise.
(40:56):
But by yoga now, I think there's41 million practitioners and
we're at 1.7 million in theEpiscopal church.
So somewhere those twotrajectories cross, I, gosh, it
(41:16):
would be so easy if there was,you know, if, if we looked, if,
if we e xamine that crossingplace and said, Oh, well, that's
the problem.
You know, we can fix that.
Um, it's not that simple.
It, you know, going back to, um,our, our ticklish nervous about
(41:37):
the human body, um, ourhypocrisy, all Christianity's
hypocrisy, where we stamp allour welcome on our sign.
And then if somebody shows upand they're not dressed the
right way, or they're pierced,or they're tattooed, or they're
having a bad mental health dayor their clothes aren't clean,
or they have body odor, or theirskin is a different color, or
(42:00):
they speak a different languageor something, we send them the
message in a hundred differentways, subtle and not so subtle
that we'll all are welcome, butsome are more welcomed than
others.
Exactly.
There's, you know, there's thewhole, in my book, I examine a
(42:23):
little bit the rise of the SPNR,the spiritual, but not really.
And that's a reaction to somedegree, um, against what young
people or young people's parentsfound to be hypocritical about
(42:45):
religion, you know, and we're ahuman institution for goodness
sakes, like any other humaninstitution we're going to be in
.
Perfect.
Um, but I, I think there, Ithink there are things at that
intersection that the church canand should pay attention to.
(43:07):
Uh, one is, you know, RichardRohr, u h, saying, u h, clergy
do a great job of telling peoplewhat to believe and a crappy job
of teaching people, how to live.
A nd when I, I was at aconference and h e's, he was our
speaker and he said that, and Iwent, Oh God, that hurt.
(43:30):
And, u m, he was right,absolutely.
Right.
Y eah.
T hen, you know, I'm n ot, Idon't know, as there was a class
in seminary entitled how t oteach people how to live.
(43:50):
I mean, the best tools we weregiven was go, pray m ore, go
give to the poor more, go, g ivemore money t o the church.
U h, go study scripture, more,take on this spiritual practice,
take on that.
Those are all really valid andgood answers, but they, I
(44:11):
believe fall short of whatpeople are looking for in terms
of guidance.
We have not been practicalenough.
We have not, uh, drawn a tightenough connection between the
peace of God, which passes allunderstanding and how to get it.
Susan Springer.
You're a luminous being
Speaker 2 (44:33):
As a leader.
And just as simply as a human,thank you for joining us on
hyphenated life today, we aredeeply grateful and feel so
lucky that you spent some timewith us today.
Thank you so very much.
I love you too, brother, brother, we love you.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Good luck on this wonderful endeavor.
Take care.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
(45:13):
Hyphenated.
Life is a production of pinestreet church in Boulder,
Colorado hosted by AndrewDoherty and David[inaudible].
The podcast is produced by PhilNorman and executive producer,
Alexi Molden special.
Thanks to our guests today andthe Leal Hill trust of Boulder,
Colorado.
(45:46):
[inaudible] they got theSouthern accent.
Yeah, that's there's an app forthat.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Welcome to, Oh, sorry.
Take two.
Do you think Jesus did yoga?
Maybe he led some classes.
Um,
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I wonder what his favorite shakra was,
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Right?
I'm sure he had one.
Well, he had seven c hakras, butI'm sure h e
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Dear Jesus of all the seven chakras,
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I honestly, I mean, a wonder yoga has been around
since before Jesus's timesomebody was doing yoga probably
in the Holy land and the yearzero.
Right.
I wonder if he did yoga.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well, I w we didn't get into this day, but I mean,
Jesus has an basically he was anEastern spiritual master,
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Right.
Visited by three Kings from,
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And we've institutionalized Jesus so much
that we're losing out on thekind of spiritual wisdom figure
that he truly was and in theEastern vein.
And, um, you know, it reminds meof the, there's a book called
Jesus before Christianity, byAlbert Nolan.
It says, Jesus, didn't come tofound a church.
(01:03):
Jesus came to start a movement.
And I think that is also part ofwhat the, um, the rediscovery or
the reclamation project that isyoga and Christianity that's
going on, that season's involvedin.
And, um, I, I think that's amessage that church in America
certainly needs to hear and, andinternalize and embody today.
(01:26):
I'm David[inaudible] and I amAndrew Dardy on today's podcast.
We're talking with the ReverendSusan Springer and Episcopal
priest here in Boulder, Coloradoabout yoga and Christianity at a
time when we're trying to findways to integrate our full human
lives into what it means to be aspiritual person in the world
today, Susan is the rector ofst.
(01:49):
John's Episcopal right down thestreet here from the pine street
church podcast studio.
And she and I, um, have struckup a friendship that really kind
of developed around thepandemic.
I actually called her to talkabout what their plans were for
a physical reopening, uh, postCOVID-19.
(02:11):
And we have been, uh, on ajourney of discovery, I would
say, um, with our congregationsaround, uh, issues of race.
And we've launched an educationand action initiative between
st.
John's Episcopal and pinestreet, church of Boulder, uh,
to figure out, uh, you know, toexamine our own white privilege,
our own, um, experiences ofbreathing the air of whiteness
(02:36):
and America.
And so we're on that path, um,together as congregations to
figure out how to be, um,anti-racist congregations and to
do good work in the world.
So that, uh, led us to, um,bring Susan on hyphenated life
and also to talk about her newbook, yoga and Christianity
coming out next year.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I think I remember, I think I was there first time you
met her, it was about threeyears ago at the good Friday day
long marathon of sermons.
Everyone got the seven lastwords of Christ.
Everyone got one word orsomething, and you're like,
where's s t.
John's.
I was like, I'll show you whenwe w alked down there, i t was a
(03:18):
little icy out and we werewalking fast, got there out of
breath.
A nd I was running late.
She, well, yeah, she wasstanding outside and Andrew
you're on.
It's like, and that was a veryexciting, and I was like, boy,
I'm glad I d on't have to speakin front of people right now.
C ause we were, we were hustlingdown there.
(03:38):
So it was a little winded, Ithink.
U m, I think that was, I thinkthat was the first time you met
her.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
That's right?
Yeah, it was good Friday of, um,that was probably 2017 or 2018.
Something like that.
Yeah.
Christianity is an incarnationalreligion at the heart of
Christianity is what does itmean to be a human being in the
world who follows God in the wayof Jesus for those on the
(04:07):
Christian path?
I think it's really important toreclaim the incarnational heart
of what Christianity startedabout, uh, which is the scandal,
the scandal of God becoming ahuman being.
And somewhere along the waywe've located, as we talked
about today, we've located thegospel, uh, in the brain or
(04:30):
between the ears and have madeit a head trip.
And I think what's reallyimportant about what Susan
Springer is bringing to theChristian community in the
Christian conversation is theimportance of reclaiming the box
.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
[inaudible]
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Welcome to hyphenated life.
We invite you to join us on thisjourney to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
become more fully alive
Speaker 3 (05:20):
[inaudible]
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Today.
We're so delighted to have theReverend Susan Springer, who is
an Episcopal priest.
She is in her ninth year asrector of st.
John's in Boulder, Colorado.
Susan came to the priesthoodfrom a life as an Alaskan oil
filled worker, a trail builder,a local politician and author
(05:40):
and small business owner.
She is presently under contractwriting a book that explores the
intersection of yoga philosophywith progressive mystical
Christian theology, and whichmakes the case for churches to
bring yoga into their worshipspaces.
So is what we're going to betalking about with Reverend
Susan Springer today, Susan,welcome to hyphenated life and
(06:03):
thank you for joining.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Oh, thank you for having me, Andrew.
It is a delight
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Thought that we could start off today by talking a
little bit about how your bookcame to be.
Um, I know that it's still beingwritten and will be coming out
at some point, but how, how didyou kind of, uh, come about
writing a book about yoga andChristianity?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Well, I was in a couple of car accidents and, um,
I was no longer able to roadbike, um, without pain or back
country ski or do some of thethings that I had really enjoyed
doing.
And I had always poo-pooed yogaas too slow.
Um, and uh, I thought I hadpretty good flexibility, pretty
(06:49):
good strength, pretty goodbalance.
Finally, I took a yoga class ina bike shop no less on a Monday
night.
And, um, within the first 10minutes I had self-corrected on
all three of those assumptions.
I was neither flexible norstrong, nor did I have good
balance.
(07:10):
And, um, you know, thatrealization kind of hooked me.
I would say about a year after Ibegan practicing maybe a little
bit longer than that.
Um, during the closing portionof our Monday night yoga class
during Shavasana or the corpseor resting pose, I had the most
(07:32):
profound experimental experienceof my life.
And, um, you know, I hadn'tsigned up for that, right.
I had just signed up to keep,keep my body in shape as my, um,
car accident, injury healed.
And, uh, I just saw yoga asmaybe an interim measure.
So I was really blown away fromthat point.
(07:54):
I began to see, um, parallels orintersections or meeting places
between yoga philosophy and whatI call progressive mystical
Christian theology.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Wow.
So this is deeply personal toyou obviously.
And when you talk about, um,mystical, progressive
Christianity, could you say alittle bit more about what that
means to you and put it in awider context and in, in this
sort of conversation?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Sure.
I'll start with the Episcopalchurch, but I think what I, what
I have to say about the way weregard scripture will probably,
um, ring true for many of yourlisteners.
So in the 15th century, 16thcentury, Richard i n the church
of England, u m, really capturedthe way Episcopalians regard.
(08:47):
U m, Holy scripture, he saideverything necessary for
salvation is contained in Holyscripture, but everything in
Holy scripture is necessary forsalvation.
Much of the Bible ishistorically conditioned.
Not every sentence of scripturecarries equal weight.
And so a Pisco paleon i s bringto the reading and study of
(09:08):
scripture.
U m, reason human reason.
We have what you might call ahigh anthropology or a high
regard for our own intellects.
And, u m, you know, we believein kind of mid rushing things
out, hashing things out,especially the difficult s
ayings of Jesus rather thansaying, well, this particular
(09:31):
text obviously means this orthat.
Um, so we give some latitudes.
So in that regard we would becalled I think progressive,
certainly socially.
Um, I'm just going to go out ona limb and guess that a majority
of the Pisco paleon are somewhatsocially progressive that said
(09:53):
we are not a homogenousdenomination.
There are very conservativeEpiscopalians, socially and
politically, and very liberaland everybody in between.
So I certainly wouldn't want tocast us as a one size fits all,
but we are progressive in that.
We welcome all those voices tothe table.
U m, gosh, there's a lot more Ican say about progressive
(10:16):
theology.
It is, I guess if you've readany Richard Rohr, it is what I
would call a humble stance,right?
Like, like the church of my, Iwas born into the Episcopal
church.
U m, the church of my childhoodwas like many mainline
denominations, a church thatjust assumed we had it all.
(10:42):
And why wouldn't you want to belike us because we have it all
and the church because of i tsdwindling membership.
And now I'm speaking about thechurch
Speaker 2 (10:53):
In general, the Christian Church,
Speaker 4 (10:55):
You know, we've been obliged to become a little bit
more humble and that's a goodthing to recognize that we are
not the exclusive holders of thetruth that God reveals the
divine, self-taught alldifferent denominations, all
different human beings in alldifferent ways.
So that's another element ofwhat I would call progressive
(11:17):
theology.
Mr.
Cole simply put is the premisethat any human being has the
ability, the power, thebirthright to have a first hand
direct experience of God
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Well-put yeah, I certainly connect in my own
American Baptist churches.
USA tradition have been moreinfluenced by Catholic monks
probably than any Baptisttheologian in my, in my life.
So when you're talking aboutprogressive Christian theology,
there's so many connectingpoints even between our two
(11:58):
denominational traditions.
U m, one of the things that isbubbling up, and of course we
are in a, what many people callthe Boulder bubble, right?
The people's Republic ofBoulder, Colorado.
So when we're talking about someof this in the realm of mystical
and Christian theology, I'm sortof curious, because I know the
sort of terminology of, ofChristian yoga has kind of
(12:22):
bubbled up over the last manyyears.
Um, I'm kind of curious aboutyour experience of, you know,
where you find, u m, t hoseconnecting points between, u h,
C hristian scripture, as yousaid, and yoga philosophy.
I get a little cheeky sometimes,and we'll say, you know, we take
the Bible seriously, but notliterally.
(12:44):
So Jesus said, I am the gate.
It doesn't mean he was one, youknow, so when you talk, when you
talk about that progressiveaspect of Christian theology,
where do you find, especially asan Episcopal priest, u m, yo u
know, in your own voc ation, those connecting points between
Christian scripture and yogaphilosophy, u m, in a way that
(13:05):
says, you know, what are someexamples in which they say the
same thing?
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Well, I, before I answer that, I want to go back
to Christian yoga, um, becausethere's, there's a couple of
different ways to define that.
And I, and I think it'simportant to distinguish, um,
what we do at st John's and whatI'm writing about and what I'm
not writing about.
(13:30):
And I'm, you know, I'm just inthe process of discovery, but,
but what I've learned so far isthat there are Christians who
appreciate the exercise, if youwill, the physical and mental,
um, fitness that yoga can offer,but who are really uncomfortable
(13:54):
with the fact that yoga is notinherently a Christian thing,
yoga, in fact, predatesreligion, per se.
It has certainly been associatedwith Hinduism and Buddhism far,
far longer than it ever has beenwith Judaism or Christianity.
(14:18):
Um, but it is, it is simply aphilosophical and spiritual
practice with eight limbs.
And do not ask me to recite whatthey are, um, what they are.
Thank you.
We'll take a commercial breakright now.
Um, I totally lost my train ofthought.
(14:39):
Oh, so anyway, um, we, I, Idon't seek, we don't seek to
kind of sanitize or Christianizeyoga, and that's a really
important distinction.
Um, we endeavor to havetremendous respect for the
standalone integrity of yogaphilosophy.
(15:02):
Um, I have no interest incollapsing, the two great
traditions of yoga andChristianity or yoga and
anything into each other, right.
Both have their own standaloneintegrity.
And I think they, they will sailinto the future just fine that
way they don't w w they cancomplete and compliment one
another, but they don't needeach other in order to stand
(15:26):
upright.
So that's a really importantdistinction, and there are some
people I could, could call outin a good way.
Um, I, my friend, my command ofFrench is shameful, but it's, um
, father dish Shanae, D E C H aN E T, who wrote in the 1950s in
(15:49):
France and wrote in the bookcalled Christian yoga.
What's curious, and I know thisis an aside, but I'll, I'll get
to your question.
What's curious is that, youknow, we fussed today that yoga
has become so westernized and sosuch a product of white affluent
Americans.
And, um, essentially in 1956,they Shanae was saying exactly
(16:14):
the same thing you was like,wow, Europeans just treat
treated as an exercise program.
So, so I guess from the timeyoga has become westernized, um,
practitioners and leaders havestruggled to make sure the two
traditions retain theirindependent integrity.
(16:34):
U m, what else do I want to say?
Beat Griffiths, who was a RomanCatholic priest in India, u m,
had a Benedictine Hindumonastery.
Um, so he was another Wayfinder.
If you will, someone who showedthe rest of us the way there are
(16:55):
some ignitions who are someJesuits who follow, um, the
spiritual exercises of Ignatiuswho also marry yoga philosophy.
And finally, there's a groupcalled Christians practicing
yoga.
They have a website, all ofthose that I named, um, and it's
(17:16):
certainly not limited to those Inamed, but all of them, I named
seemed to really respect, um,the independence of the two
traditions that said there areother groups who I will not
name, u m, who have endeavoredto sanitize yoga, u h, replacing
(17:36):
the s anscript posture names,the Sanskrit, Austin, and names
with, u m, Christian ones.
U m, in order to, as I read it,make nervous practitioners feel
bit better, u m, and feel lessnaughty.
So, y ou k now, I don't thinkthat's necessary when we
(17:57):
practice yoga in the church.
We're not worshiping Hindu gods.
We might talk about a Hindu God,but it certainly isn't with the
aim of getting a Pisca paleon,you know, to turn to Ganash or
Shiva or somebody else.
So, anyway, um, what are thepoints of, what are the
parallels?
(18:18):
I don't know where to begin.
Um, let me talk a little bit,and I'm going to talk only in a
general way, because that is theupcoming chapter in my book.
I am just about done withchapter two and about ready to
launch into chapter three, whichspecifically addresses the
places in Christian scriptureand the places in, u h, Baton
(18:42):
Julie's, yoga sutras, or theBhagavad Gita, or the Upanishads
where yoga philosophy andChristian scripture and theology
are saying the same thing.
So in a general way, once youdevelop the eyes to read the
Bhagavad Gita or the upon ashots or other, u m, texts,
(19:03):
other yoga, philosophical textswith those eyes, it's like, you
see the parallels everywhere,right?
It's like y ou're mushroomhunting in the forest.
And once you learn what anedible mushroom looks like,
they're jumping out of theforest floor at you.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
I, I, I'm curious, uh, th this,this idea of, of yoga and
Christianity and yoga being anEastern concept rather than a
Christian concept, or, uh, youknow, coming from a different
religion.
One of the reasons we startedthis podcast hyphenated life was
to try and break down some ofthose barriers that limit, u h,
(19:42):
experiencing life to thefullest.
And we're about to embark on a,well, we actually have just
begun embarking on a f allseries here at pine street
church, exploring differentelements of wellness, u m, and
working towards the idea thatwellness is a b alanced act
between heart, soul, mind, andbody.
And I find, u m, I wonderhistorically, I think you could
(20:07):
easily say that Christianity hasdone a great job of not just
ignoring the body, but, u m,saying that it's, it's off
limits kind of thing.
And so, to me, it makes greatsense.
He takes something that, thatpredates religions, you know,
they figured something out.
U m, but once you startincorporating the idea of
physical wellness, you realizeit's connected to, you know, the
(20:29):
wellness of the mind, body andspirit.
And, u m, I'm wondering in lieuof not having any other real, u
m, option, is there a way thatwe can just say this is needed
here in the Christian experienceand in America?
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
So, so as I work on this book, I kind of feel like
she's a lover and I visit her,you know, I sneak away and visit
her whenever I can.
And this morning, really, reallyearly, I was working on the
ending of chapter two.
A nd the last section, u m, inthat chapter that I just started
(21:12):
mapping out a bit is, u m, o uru nease with the human body,
right.
We talk about, u m, you know,Jesus says, this is my body in
the Eucharist, u h, u h, givenfor you, but we would never
think of saying, well, Jesus,here's my body given for you.
(21:34):
I mean, isn't this, u h, don'twe wish reciprocity, isn't this
a relationship in any otherrelationship?
Isn't there reciprocity, but weget all nervous.
Oh, y ou couldn't possibly wantmy body.
U m, and you know, we talk aboutbeing made in the image of God,
the image and likeness.
(21:54):
We talk about the body ofChrist, the church, we talk
about embodied incarnationaltheology and on and on and on
and on.
And we just get very squeamish,right?
We can't, we made Mary a Virgin,even though the Greek text says
she was a young woman.
Um, you know, and on the onehand you could argue that we
(22:17):
wanted to kind of hash out Jesus's D NA, hi s p aternal DNA.
But I think it's because wecan't fathom God mucking about
under the covers.
I mean, not to be disrespectful,but it's, you know, we were
given these, these as one.
Oh, golly, let me think.
Oh, it was, it was dai shanay again, I think, you know, these
(22:38):
radiant luminous bodies, justlike God gave God's son and, and
we have spent millenniaapologizing for them.
I mean, I think it goes back to,u m, Ne oplatonism and, and the
(23:02):
scandal that, that God, thedivine self would deign the muck
about in human flesh, right?
It's sweaty and messy andimperfect, and it makes funny
noises.
And, and so we divorce andEpiscopalians have, have been
famous for this.
(23:23):
We divorced the body from therest of our religious
experience.
I mean, we have the, we, welaugh at ourselves, you know,
the frozen chosen rats, that'sthe nickname for a Pisco
Balian's you can explain it thatwe are an intellectual
denomination.
(23:44):
I mean, it's why scientists finda welcome home.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with that, but I think
what yoga offers is a way as yousaid, to bring mind and body and
heart, and that's what it meansto have a relationship of
reciprocity with Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I love what you're saying about the, the
incarnational aspect ofChristianity.
And you mentioned Richard Rohr alittle bit earlier, and he,
several years ago, you said, ifyou think about the human body
and you wonder about where thegospel resides in the human body
, uh, typically it's between theears.
(24:25):
You know, it's a, it's a, it's ahead trip.
And so kind of what you'rebringing together with yoga
philosophy and Christianity.
I mean, I think it's so powerfulbecause, uh, you know, even with
if therapy these days, right, wedo cognitive therapy, but, um,
I've been really curious latelyabout, uh, body energy
(24:46):
management.
I've been reading about the, Ithink, seven energy centers of
the body, right.
With the chakras.
So when, when you, when youbegan to combine yoga philosophy
and Christianity, what is your,uh, sort of angle of vision, I
guess, about how to, how toreclaim or reengage, uh, the
(25:07):
body, um, with our Christianpractice, um, when we are so, as
Richard Rohr says again, locatedbetween the ears.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Yeah.
You know, it's, it's, I don't, Idon't have a ready answer for
that.
Andrew.
I don't have a formulaic answer.
Um, the first thing that comesto mind is that people need to
(25:37):
have a personal heart experienceof Jesus Christ for themselves.
Otherwise I can, I can makecompelling arguments.
You can make compellingarguments, we can use tremendous
fabulous examples.
(25:59):
Um, but, and this is back toRichard Rory, you know, he said
something like, um, we can tellpeople what it is they are to do
and how it is they are to live,but until they have had that
personal mystical experience ofChrist, it's all going to reside
between the ears.
(26:20):
Uh, it doesn't translate.
So I guess my hope and my prayeris that people practicing yoga
in the church, in the worshipspace begin to have such a
personal heart or mysticalexperience.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah.
I, I, I'm fascinated byChristian.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Um, it feels like, uh, like the, the last, the last
portion of a once, you know,much broader concept of what
Christianity is.
Um, and we've, we've tried toembrace that here at pine street
church the past few years, verymuch so with Celtic Christianity
and, and re rediscovering thehumanness, you know, um, heaven
(27:06):
on earth, the, the idea thatthis does count, this is, you
know, this life that we'reliving, we should live it to the
fullest.
And you've mentioned thatmystical experience.
I like the idea, the term, thetranscendent experience, um,
that I think it's, again, goingback to why we started this
podcast is, uh, it felt like somany opportunities for
(27:30):
transcendent experience weredefined outside the boundaries
of what was allowed to besacred.
And, um, so I don't know if youcould talk about that a little
bit.
You kind of have been talkingabout it, but this idea that any
transcendent experience issacred, no matter the, the root
of it, no matter the origin ofit and that it is, it is valid
(27:51):
and worthwhile.
And I think, and, and, and maybein speaking to the mystical,
mystical traditions, how theymay, um, if we, if we re circle
and refocus on some of those,they may enable us to be open to
, um, transcendent experience nomatter where it comes from to
being, um, worthwhile andcertainly as sacred as any
Speaker 4 (28:16):
Well, you know, the news flash is that God works in
the world and not just, youknow, in the, in the pews
surrounded by stain glass.
Right.
And I think that many of us havea particular age.
I mean, I can't speak forsomeone who's 30.
(28:37):
I can only speak for someonewho's 60 ish And beyond.
Um, but we were raised that thechurch building was Holy
unconsecrated space, and that'swhere you went to meet Jesus.
(29:00):
And I don't recall ever beingtaught that I couldn't meet
Jesus anywhere else.
I mean, I remember as a kid inmy rowboat on the Harbor of
Rockport, Maine meeting Jesusquite readily, um, I didn't
recognize it at the time becausenobody gave me the language and
(29:21):
nobody gave me permission.
And I wonder how my life wouldhave been more tethered to
Christ from start to finish.
If somebody had given me thelanguage of mystical experience
as a child, I knew what I wasexperiencing, but I didn't have
(29:47):
a label for it.
And to the extent that theChristian Church I'll move
beyond the Episcopal church hereto the expense, to the extent
that the Christian Church hasnot done that we have failed our
members.
(30:07):
Um, and we have ill-equippedthem to dissolve the bounds
between sacred and secular.
We have ill-equipped them tomake all of life, all of
experience every week, day,every hour sacred.
And, you know, Jesus saying,take off your shoes here, the
(30:32):
bushes on fire, you know, you'restanding on Holy ground.
That's not just an interestingstory.
It's an important theologicalstatement about what God thinks
of God's creation.
So yoga can assist with changingthat and culturated unhelpful
(31:00):
worldview, but it isn't the onlything.
Um, w what's interesting,there's a, there's an Episcopal
priest and, and, uh, I don'tknow what you'd call them.
I guess, scholar ofcongregational development,
whose name I'm in a butcherDwight Sheil.
It's like Z S C H E I L E.
(31:24):
And in his book, the people ofthe way rediscovering or
discovering Episcopal identity,you know, he, he, he says very
clearly at the beginning, gotGod's working out there, folks
in the community beyond thedoors, beyond the double red
doors, beyond the stained glass,u m, it's up to you to go out
(31:48):
into the community and see whatGod is doing and to join God
there, that's the invitation.
And I feel like churches whobring yoga into the worship
space are in essence doing that,right.
We're looking at the meteoricrise of the popularity of yoga
in the United States and saying,huh, I wonder if God's in that.
(32:12):
I wonder if God could be up tosomething.
I wonder if we should takenotice, maybe the answer is now,
but at least it bears ourexploration, at least at bears,
our attention.
Did that address your questionat all?
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, and you hit on this conceptthat I also also find intriguing
is sort of reverse course of thewhole l ifelong of Christianity,
which, you know, there, t here'san element of b ringing it out
into the world, right.
Making disciples of Christ, etcetera, but it feels like this
day and age, u m, we need to, weneed to reverse that course and
(32:53):
bring the world back into thechurch because it feels like
something got left behind.
Um, y ou know, and I think, youknow, a w onder these days that
we're i n right now have madethese things even more apparent
as the churches are closed down,literally don't have that four
walls and a roof and stainedglass and red doors to go into,
(33:14):
to have our sacred experiences.
And now more than ever, I thinkwe can recognize how critical it
is to, you know, open our, openour eyes, minds and hearts and
bodies to everything that theworld has to offer.
You know, and I, I, I love thatyou're writing this book.
I love that this is a passion ofyours.
I feel like we're kindredspirits here an d i n many ways,
(33:37):
for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yeah.
I, you know, and Susan, that'sreally great that you brought
that up again, David.
I mean, Susan, when you talkedearlier about, this is my body
and in talking about theincarnational nature of
Christianity, it's the, it's theheart of, of, uh, what we're
about and who, you know, Jesusshowed us the way to be.
Um, and when you talk about thisis my body, I know that, you
(34:01):
know, for your, uh,denominational tradition, it's
been, uh, sort of difficult,right.
To in this kind of quarantinetime, uh, where the Eucharist
is.
So front and center for theEpiscopalian tradition.
Uh, could you talk a little bitabout, this is my body, uh, in
terms of how that has, um, youknow, been part of how you've
(34:24):
navigated things as an Episcopalpriest with offering Eucharist
online or not being able tooffer Eucharist online?
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Well, I tried to offer you Krista online, but,
um, my Eucharistic theology wasa bit unorthodox for, um,
management, our diocese andFisher.
And, um, yeah, so that didn'thappen.
Um, but it was very Richard Rohrish.
(34:53):
Um, it was, it was the Christ ondown, right?
If we, if we read scripture thatsaid, Jesus can walk through
walls where his disciples arecowering in fear on a locked
room, I'm guessing that thereisn't Christ can transmit divine
(35:13):
power, energy, blessing, andgrace over the internet.
I mean, I'm not much of a techperson, but I'm just all gamble
that, and, you know, as diversea denomination as we are
theologically, there aretraditions.
There is, uh, we are a religiousinstitution and, um, we do have
(35:35):
to conform to the, uh,prevailing theology.
So that didn't happen.
Um, so we did a work around, uh,that feels actually by
comparison, very logisticallycomplicated, but given the, the
(35:57):
constraints imposed upon us byour denomination and given the
constraints imposed upon us andeverybody else by the pandemic,
we are not going to gather forcommunion to share communion in
the church.
Uh, before the pandemic, we, wehad enough people worshiping so
(36:17):
that it would take like sixchurch services a weekend in
order to accommodate everybody.
Right.
Um, and even if everybody felt,not everybody feels comfortable
coming into a building.
So right out of the gate, you'renot being inclusive.
And inclusivity is, is one of myc ongregation's core values.
So it just doesn't work.
(36:38):
So what we've come up with is away to take the body out into
the world.
U m, we've established eightsatellite congregations that s
tretch from North Denver andBroomfield in the South to
Longmont and Lyons in the Northto Erie a nd Lewisville,
(37:02):
Lafayette, little bit to theEast.
And we have 40 volunteers whohave stepped forward to be, u m,
w ho've been trained asEucharistic ministers.
They will carry t his sacramentout into communities and people
will gather in parks a ndparking lots on porches.
(37:25):
I'm trying to think if there areother creative places that folks
have found, I think it's mostlyparks open spaces, one front
porch, and they will sharecommunion in smaller groups.
U h, and as I was t h thisSunday, the 4th of October is
the first time we will do that.
(37:47):
So it's a great adventure, agreat experiment.
And I wrote to my congregationin great detail about it.
And I said, if it feels strangeto you that that's such a Holy
sacrament, isn't happening inthe church, try to remember that
(38:08):
the first meal or one of thefirst meals that Jesus shared
with people was on the grass ofa h illside or whatever dinner
table he happened to t here,there was no consecrated space.
Yo u k n ow, nobody cameunconsecrated th e s pace and
stuck a sign in the ground.
It was the presence and theintent, you know, David back to
(38:30):
the heart, right?
It was the heart of peopletogether with heart of Jesus
that made it consecrated spacethat made it Holy ground.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
I was thinking a minute ago about the lines of,
um, from Elizabeth Barrett,Browning, you know, who said,
earth is crammed with heaven andevery common Bush of fire with
God, but only the one who takesoff his or her shoes sees it,
the rest sit around and p layblackberries.
(39:02):
T here's t his l ike, you know,just thinking about the
communion, the communion n essof our world that does go beyond
those red doors.
You mentioned to go a minute agoand, you know, in thinking
about, and Susan you've, you'vestated this here and there, but,
you know, we're all especially asort of, u h, professional
(39:23):
Christians, so to speak who havebeen lamenting the, u h, you
know, what some sociologists ofreligion called the hemorrhaging
of church membership since the1960s, when you kind of getting
back to the y oga philosophyagain, when you think about, u
h, you know, folks going out thedoor of the church, and yet
again, Americans l ove theiryoga.
(39:46):
And in this meteoric rise, youdescribed a minute ago about, u
h, u h, yoga practice.
W hat, what might you say, u m,about that parallel, you know, o
f folks leaving the church, soto speak since the sixties and
this rise truly in, in yogapractice in the United States?
Speaker 4 (40:08):
Well, there's something at the intersection
and that's part of the aim of myresearch.
There are crossing trajectories,uh, in my lifetime, the
Episcopal church has shrunk byhalf.
We are today, half the size wewere when I was born in 1958.
(40:34):
And not exactly that over thatsame period of time, but roughly
right.
It's kinda hard to say, um,okay.
It was 1972 when yoga reallybegan to catch on or 1981 or
not, it's from the research I'vedone to date.
It just isn't that precise.
(40:56):
But by yoga now, I think there's41 million practitioners and
we're at 1.7 million in theEpiscopal church.
So somewhere those twotrajectories cross, I, gosh, it
(41:16):
would be so easy if there was,you know, if, if we looked, if,
if we e xamine that crossingplace and said, Oh, well, that's
the problem.
You know, we can fix that.
Um, it's not that simple.
It, you know, going back to, um,our, our ticklish nervous about
(41:37):
the human body, um, ourhypocrisy, all Christianity's
hypocrisy, where we stamp allour welcome on our sign.
And then if somebody shows upand they're not dressed the
right way, or they're pierced,or they're tattooed, or they're
having a bad mental health dayor their clothes aren't clean,
or they have body odor, or theirskin is a different color, or
(42:00):
they speak a different languageor something, we send them the
message in a hundred differentways, subtle and not so subtle
that we'll all are welcome, butsome are more welcomed than
others.
Exactly.
There's, you know, there's thewhole, in my book, I examine a
(42:23):
little bit the rise of the SPNR,the spiritual, but not really.
And that's a reaction to somedegree, um, against what young
people or young people's parentsfound to be hypocritical about
(42:45):
religion, you know, and we're ahuman institution for goodness
sakes, like any other humaninstitution we're going to be in
.
Perfect.
Um, but I, I think there, Ithink there are things at that
intersection that the church canand should pay attention to.
(43:07):
Uh, one is, you know, RichardRohr, u h, saying, u h, clergy
do a great job of telling peoplewhat to believe and a crappy job
of teaching people, how to live.
A nd when I, I was at aconference and h e's, he was our
speaker and he said that, and Iwent, Oh God, that hurt.
(43:30):
And, u m, he was right,absolutely.
Right.
Y eah.
T hen, you know, I'm n ot, Idon't know, as there was a class
in seminary entitled how t oteach people how to live.
(43:50):
I mean, the best tools we weregiven was go, pray m ore, go
give to the poor more, go, g ivemore money t o the church.
U h, go study scripture, more,take on this spiritual practice,
take on that.
Those are all really valid andgood answers, but they, I
(44:11):
believe fall short of whatpeople are looking for in terms
of guidance.
We have not been practicalenough.
We have not, uh, drawn a tightenough connection between the
peace of God, which passes allunderstanding and how to get it.
Susan Springer.
You're a luminous being
Speaker 2 (44:33):
As a leader.
And just as simply as a human,thank you for joining us on
hyphenated life today, we aredeeply grateful and feel so
lucky that you spent some timewith us today.
Thank you so very much.
I love you too, brother, brother, we love you.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Good luck on this wonderful endeavor.
Take care.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
(45:13):
Hyphenated.
Life is a production of pinestreet church in Boulder,
Colorado hosted by AndrewDoherty and David[inaudible].
The podcast is produced by PhilNorman and executive producer,
Alexi Molden special.
Thanks to our guests today andthe Leal Hill trust of Boulder,
Colorado.
(45:46):
[inaudible] they got theSouthern accent.
Yeah, that's there's an app forthat.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Welcome to, Oh, sorry.
Take two.
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