September 23, 2025 • 48 mins
Why is it that we can read all the self-help books, listen to every podcast, and try every workshop… but still feel stuck? Therapist and coach Nina DeFrancisco breaks down why knowing something isn’t the same as living it—and what’s missing when we treat healing like another hustle checklist.
We talk about how easy it is to stack meditation, journaling, and exercise on top of our to-do list without actually shifting what’s happening inside. Nina shares simple grounding practices you can use anywhere to come back to the present. She also digs into how the “protective identities” we’ve built—those versions of ourselves we created to stay safe—can quietly block us from real change, no matter how much we think we’ve learned.
The biggest growth doesn’t happen in your head—it happens in how you show up in real life, in your relationships, in those tiny moments when you choose to respond differently. Nina reframes nervous system regulation in such a refreshing way: it’s not about avoiding stress, it’s about building the flexibility to move through it and come back to balance.
If you’ve been feeling stuck on the self-help hamster wheel or craving a gentler, more integrated approach, this episode will feel like a deep breath.
✨ Connect with Nina on Instagram @mindbodynina
or at humansunplugged.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everybody, welcome back to.
I Am Me, my name is Liz Bachman, I am your host and today I
have a super special guest, ninaDeFrancisco.
She's actually my therapist,but she's a holistic therapist,
which means she focuses veryheavily on the mind-body
connection so that we canintegrate all this stuff that we
learn via self-help books,self-help podcasts and in our
therapy sessions and actuallyget that integrated into our
(00:22):
body.
She is very, very smart, she'sbeen through a lot, she has her
own coaching business as well,and she has a beautiful
community called HumansUnplugged.
But I really just wanted to sitdown with her to get some of
this amazing information thatshe has out to the people that
listen to my show.
So, with all that said, let'sdive into today's episode.
I cannot wait for you guys tohear this one.
(00:43):
All right, so we are diving inwith Nina DeFrancisco.
Did I do that right?
Yeah, I'll do that better whenI do the intro.
So first, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Nina, I'm doing really good.
It's lunch, been enjoying myday.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Okay.
So I reached out to Nina, fulldisclosure, yesterday to ask her
kind of what she wanted to talkabout, because she is a
bottomless pit of knowledge inmy opinion.
So I wanted to know kind ofwhere her head is at and I
that's how I prepped for thisinterview today.
So I'm going to let you kind ofrecap that and then we'll dive
into the actual interview aroundthat.
So recap, just let, if you leteverybody know, kind of like
(01:20):
what you're practicing or whatyou're with therapy and coaching
and stuff like that, whatyou're actually seeing, what
you're with therapy and coachingand stuff like that, what
you're actually seeing working.
Because I feel like we get sobombarded in the health and
wellness space and mental healthspace about this and that and
that.
But yesterday you mentionedthere's a lot of external stuff
that people are doing which ispart of the work.
But if you actually want to seea shift inside of yourself, I'm
(01:42):
losing my.
I'll let you go from therebecause it's your work.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I think this is such an exciting conversation because
I think there's so many toolsout there for health, healing,
wellness and so many of them areso valuable.
But I think for a lot of people,and especially people who
intellectualize a lot and getstuck in their head a lot, a lot
of the courses and advice outthere isn't considering people
(02:09):
who intellectualize, which is alot of people right, like that's
kind of bypassed in theteaching of things.
I'm like, hi, that's how Istarted working with you, and I
think what's hard about that isthat there is so much good
information out there.
But then there's the questionof are you the right person at
the right time for thatinformation?
Is that information that youcan actually take and integrate
(02:31):
into your life?
Or is this information that'sgoing to feed more into this
barrel of things that you nowknow but don't actually know in
your body?
You don't actually have itintegrated.
You haven't actually gainedthis wisdom on your own.
It's just something that youlearn from somebody else.
You know it to be truesomewhere deep inside, but you
haven't actually gone throughfully learning that thing
(02:54):
spiritually and physically,literally in your body, like
muscle memory.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Now, when you I do want to talk about that because
I hear that a lot more and morelike people talking about great,
you all this knowledge, but youneed to embody it or feel it in
your body.
What does that actually looklike?
Because I think people whointellectualize this stuff are
like great check, how do we getthis in our body?
So what does that actually looklike when you're saying I want
to get this, like you got to getthis in your body, all this
(03:20):
information that we have up inour heads?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
yeah, yeah.
So I don't think about it asmuch as like taking the
information and then likegetting it all integrated from
mind to body.
I think about it more as like,if we put all of that
information aside for a second,where are you actually at in
your life right now?
How do you actually feel, how doyou actually see yourself and
how do you actually see thethings in your life?
(03:44):
But if you put all of thosethings to the side, because we
can bypass so much of what wefeel and so much of our
experience by constantly goingup into the head and jumping
into those things but whathappens when you do go back down
into your experience and whatthat would look like is, instead
of talking about a lot ofpeople will say well, I know, I
(04:04):
should feel like this because bynow you know, like I'm kind of
at the point in my life wherehold on, cut, cut, cut.
How do you actually feel inthis present moment?
And letting there be some spacefor that and letting there be
time to process that instead ofthe this is where you should be,
or this is what you think isright, or this is where you want
(04:26):
to be, or for the past 10 yearsyou've been in this place.
All of that is relevant in someway, but if we don't first go
into what's happening right now,then we're going to be stuck
somewhere else and stuck inthese endless loops and cycles
for so long.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So when you, I feel like a lot of people talk about
tuning into the present moment,but I think people genuinely
don't know how to do that.
Like if you, if we were talkingto someone who had just been
gorging themselves on self-helpbooks, but none of it is
transpiring, what would yourecommend for someone actually
getting into the present moment?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I love that.
Yeah, I like that.
You're getting super practicaland that's what's really needed.
That's you literally getting inthe present moment, in this
moment, and I think there's alot of different tools that you
can use, a lot of differentsomatic tools, but grounding
tools are really important and Ithink, especially for people
(05:27):
who intellectualize groundingtools can feel like somebody
offering you a lollipop at thebank.
I'm a grown up, what do youmean?
Like grounding tools, what doyou mean?
I'm too far along for thesethings.
I don't need that.
But grounding might look like,you know, there's like the
5-4-3-2-1 technique where it'slike what are five things you
(05:48):
can see around you?
And it's like really gettingyou into your senses, pulling
you out of the analyticalproblem solving mind and back
into what's actually around youCan you look at, can you
identify things in yourenvironment?
Can you, you know, name fourthings that you can hear?
Can you name four things thatyou can hear?
Can you name three things thatyou can feel?
(06:09):
Two things that you can smell,one that you can?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
taste.
Part of the reason I want tointerview you is because I want
to get actual practical thingsthat if someone has no idea what
to do because I was the personand I still very much am
unlearning, the gorging myselfon self-help and love help
podcasts and all that crap, andI feel like a lot of people are
doing that but then I mean we'vetalked about in our sessions
(06:32):
before.
Then you just have this bowl ofinformation.
You're like what the F do I dowith all this shit?
So I one of the things I wantedto when I like interviewing you
today was actually give peoplepractical things of what does
embodiment mean when we hearthat?
Or I also want to talk to you alittle bit about you know, we
(06:55):
hear a lot of the inner childwork, shadow work, meditation.
You mentioned yesterday goingto the gym, eating a better diet
, all these, which are all theseshould things right, these
things that we're told we shouldbe doing, but then we're not
feeling any type of internalchange.
I'm just going to open thefloor and let you talk about
that, because I think that is sorelevant today.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Should we talk about practical tools first, or do you
want to talk about the secondthing first?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
More about like this yeah, you're in therapist coach
mode, which I love.
It'll make this go smoother.
Let's talk about practicaltools and then we'll kind of
like dive into like that yeah,that was me kind of jumping
ahead, but let's talk about somepractical tools Because I think
that's so needed.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, totally agree, and I think 54321, one of the of
the most popular somaticgrounding tools.
Another one that I use for myclients this is something that I
just used for myself for somany years and that I ended up
sharing mostly in my community,but I've recently started
sharing it with some clients toois BGSP.
(07:59):
It's a little acronym toremember anywhere any time of
day, and the B stands for breath, and when people think of
breath, a lot of the time theygo straight to this big inhale
and, okay, let me take thisreally deep breath.
And sure, we want to make surewe're not breathing shallow.
But in this context, breath isliterally just noticing your
(08:20):
breath.
You don't have to changeanything, because even just
bringing attention to thatnaturally allows you to focus on
something that is sustainable.
It allows you to focus onsomething that is with you all
the time and you don't have togo straight into well, how can I
do this better?
But just to, I'm breathing, howam I breathing?
(08:41):
Nice, and just feeling that.
And then, after spending acouple seconds noticing, then
starting to say, okay, well,what if I breathed a little bit
deeper and slower?
Then how do I feel?
Not with any type of expectation, but just this curiosity and
this tuning in, and after you'vekind of just spent a little bit
(09:03):
of time there.
And again, I like this becauseit's something you can do at
home, or it's something you cando on the train yeah.
On the bus.
Or walking down the street yeah, I do this when I'm walking
down the street all the time,and then moving to G, which is
gaze, and when we're in fight orflight, our eyes, our eye
movement is really quick andit's very narrow, so we tend to
(09:26):
look ahead of us and we tend tonot have much side to side.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, we're not.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, so just like again, we're not trying to do
anything or force anything major, we're just bringing attention
to.
Can I soften my gaze a bit andlike slowly look around and like
even blink slowly a bit?
And like slowly look around andlike even blink slowly.
And then, if we move over to S,is stillness.
(09:51):
And again, a lot of peoplethink of stillness and they
think that this literally meansnot moving at all, which it can
mean that.
But stillness in this contextis there is something inside of
you that is always still, that'snever moving, that's always
there.
Can you locate that sense inyou?
It's not something you have tofind in the sense of creating it
, it's something that's alreadythere.
(10:12):
Can you kind of tap into that alittle bit?
And then P is posture.
Again, a lot of people hearposture and they do this thing,
yeah, this Straight up, right,just like people put their chest
out because that's what theythink feels really straight.
But posture just being, a lotof the time we're in a
conversation, we're sitting,we're working and we don't even
(10:33):
realize that, like the pressurethat we're putting on our legs,
our feet, our back is actuallyreally uncomfortable because
we're so in our heads that we'renot focusing on the sensations
in the body at all.
So posture in this context isliterally just can you move
yourself into a position thatactually feels nice for you and
(10:54):
actually pay attention?
Are you sitting reallyscrunched up and like your back
is actually in this positionthat if you stay here for
another 10 minutes it's going toend up giving you back pain
later?
Or, if you're leaning on yourhip in a certain way, are you
going to be like, oh, where didI get this hip?
Ache Hip pain.
What do?
I have on this I have no ideawhere it came from, because I
was so out of it when I wassitting that way.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, I think too and correct me if I'm wrong but
with that BGSP, it sounds likeslowness comes into play a lot,
which I think actually leads usinto the next thing that I
brought up, because I feel likewe've taken mental health and
(11:34):
made it hustle culture in a way.
Okay, all right, I have my job,I have this and now I have my
mental health checklist andwe're going to do our meditation
or journaling or, you know, goto the gym, do our yoga,
whatever, and it's like thecheck, check, check, check,
check.
So I think, like just hearingwhat you're saying slowness all
(11:55):
of that was what you were doingwas slow, checking in slowly,
and not even you saying checkingin with posture and not being
like upright, but like justactually checking in and being
like what's my posture like?
Or checking in with your breathand not immediately, like
taking a deep breath.
Like that really leads intothat Like hustle culture of
(12:16):
health and wellness, like, oh,time to take a deep breath, you
know, like instead of just beingwhere's my breath at right now.
Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
I want to just open up thefloor for your thoughts on all
this and just how to help peopleshift out of it.
I know in our sessions beforewe've talked, you're like if
journaling doesn't work for you,why are you journaling?
(12:37):
You know it's not.
I guess it's not that thesethings are bad things, but the
way that we are using them inour day-to-day life might not
actually be benefiting us.
I just want to get your insighton that.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, and I think it does lead so well into this next
topic because the way that Isee it, I'm a very visual person
and I really like analogies, soI picture somebody sitting in a
chair.
This is going to be such an oddimage no, it's fine, we're here
(13:11):
for it.
Somebody sitting in a chair,right, and imagine this like
really big monster with itsmouth open underneath you Okay,
okay, I got it Locked in Okay,really big monster with its
mouth open underneath you andyou're kind of just like sitting
on its tongue almost okayanything that you do, anything
you add to your routine.
I don't care if it's the mostspiritual ass shit, the thing
(13:33):
that the person you admire themost recommended to you, if it's
the thing that has been swornby for 10 000 years or if it has
all the scientific researchbehind it.
Most of the time, as long asthat monster is underneath you,
anything you take on is going toend up in that monster's mouth.
Right, it's going to eat it up.
(13:54):
Yeah, because you're sitting ontop of it Like there's no way
around it, because the monsteris still there.
Yes, what is the actual monster?
It's not actually a monster,right, it's like our
self-protection, right, but Ithink the best word to call it
is identity.
So, as long as you are somebodywho needs to be the person who
(14:16):
keeps it all together, or you'rethe person who doesn't rock the
boat because you're the niceone and nobody dislikes you, and
you're the person who you knowlike, doesn't stir anything up,
or maybe you're the person whois really strong and doesn't
express vulnerability there'sall these different types of
identities as long as thoseidentities are alive, everything
(14:36):
will feed in to them.
Yeah, so this monsterquote-unquote is who we think we
have to be in order to be safe,and when we start adding all
these things into our routines,we then use those things in
order to continue playing outthese roles and these identities
, unless we do get lucky andsomething does kind of help us
(14:57):
have an identity shift.
A lot of the time, this happensby accident, right, like when
people go on vacations, forexample.
People say this all the time.
Maybe we've talked about thisbefore, but a lot of Americans
will like go to Europe andthey'll be like oh my God, all
my symptoms are gone, like I hadIBS and I don't have it, or I
have gluten intolerance and Idon't have it there.
And a lot of people attributethis to the food.
(15:19):
And yes, the food in the US isvery it's got a lot of
concerning things and physicalbody is a real thing.
Obviously, differentingredients are going to have a
different impact on the body.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
But that's not the whole picture.
Yeah, you're also leaving yourenvironment, where you're so
accustomed to your stressors.
Yeah, you've learned how toadapt to the people around you.
You've learned how to adapt toyour physical environment, your
work, your so many things.
You're leaving the country andyou're going into a completely
new place with completelydifferent cues, probably with
(15:51):
different people, and if notdifferent people, then different
versions of people, becausethey're on vacation too, or
they're leaving theirenvironment too, and all of
these things are changing.
It changes the way that ourbodies respond.
It changes stress.
It changes who we think we haveto.
It changes stress.
It changes who we think we haveto be, or these protective
identities that we have.
A lot of.
That shifts when we go abroador go on some type of vacation,
(16:14):
and then, when we come back,it's like oh, it's back, it's
like a rubber band.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Exactly, I've definitely had the urge and I
know other people have just go,just go, and I, I guess my
question is what for people whodon't have the ability to like
just pack up and leave and starta new life somewhere else, or
even go on a European vacationor you know whatever, like I
guess, because I do thinkthere's huge shifts when you get
out of your natural routineenvironment and all that, but
(16:43):
what are things we can be doingin our day-to-day life to
naturally see those shifts?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, and I think it's more important to do it
regardless of whether or notyou're going on any type of trip
, because the truth is, if youleave and you stay in that place
long enough, most of yourpatterns will return, and if not
, then when you come backthey're going to return right
Like it's.
Sometimes it can be a true shift, but sometimes it's not a true
shift, and it's really importantthat we can actually have the
(17:10):
skills and the tools to workthrough these things.
And the first thing that we haveto become aware of is who this
person is, that we've learned tobecome in order to feel safe
and loved and to belong.
And there's a lot of aspects ofour personality that are
adapted for safety, love andbelonging, but there's going to
(17:30):
be certain parts of us that aremuch more in fear than other
parts.
So you know, for example, ifsomebody is like, okay, I want
to understand my identities, Iwant to understand how I'm
trying to earn safety, love andbelonging, one of the first
things we can do is just askwhere are you noticing a pattern
(17:51):
in your life, in the way thatyou're feeling or the way that
you seem to think that thingswork out?
So, for example, right.
Somebody might be like mybusiness is failing, my
relationship is failing and whatelse is there?
Like I just put in an offer fora house and I didn't show right
.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Okay, everything's a shit show.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
So, right, like, maybe somebody says it like that
, or maybe even somebody is justlike, what's going on in my
life right now is like you know,these three things aren't
working out.
Okay, well, let's see ifthere's any common feeling about
these three things and youmight kind of realize, wow, I
feel like a failure in all threeof them.
I feel like a failure in a lotof areas of my life.
Okay, well, this feeling of I'ma failure, there might be some
(18:36):
type of identity around that orsome type of self-protective
role around that, meaning wheredid we learn this, how is it
still playing out and how?
I always try to be carefulabout the way that I say this,
because I don't want anybody tothink that they're doing it on
purpose.
But what is actually benefitingme about feeling like a failure
?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, which there are benefits to our behaviors or
patterns or whatever that wedon't want.
There's always something there.
We learned it for a reason atsome point.
I wanted to ask you aboutidentity.
So you're talking about thisidentity at the root and talking
about these shifts.
A lot of times there's afighting back if we're actually
(19:19):
starting to see the shift, kindof like that rubber band.
No, no, no, no.
This has been working for usfor so long like let's, what are
you doing?
So what are yourrecommendations for people like
that period trying to get youtalked about a version of
yourself?
I literally wrote it down.
Wait, I want to say what youactually said without an
(19:39):
identity shift, we don'tactually get to experience
another version of ourselves inthis life.
So when you're actually tryingto have that identity shift to
get to this new version ofyourself which what do you call
that?
Because it could be higher self, true self.
I feel like there's a lot ofterms that are being said that
mean the same thing.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind for me is a
you that feels safe enough to bewho you are.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Okay, yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
That's a lot of words for like a go-to thing, but
that's to me feels like the bestrepresentation of it.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
No, I agree, because I think there's so many
different methods and not to getdown a rabbit hole, but there's
a lot of things that are beingsaid that I think I've just
found You're saying the samething in different fonts.
What I want to talk about isthat resistance.
When that resistance is comingup for people, when they're
actually starting to see thoseshifts happening and letting go
of those old versions, patterns,behaviors that used to make
(20:34):
them feel safe, how do they?
I'm going to open the floorbecause I am not a therapist,
but resistance is the topic thatI'm trying to word a question
around.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
When people are experiencing resistance, the
short answer is the moment ofchange is actually going to
happen when you responddifferently in real life.
And to go a little bit further,it's going to be when not when
you're fearless, not when you'reperfectly figured out, not when
you know for sure that if youtake a different action, that
(21:08):
everything's going to be dandyfull body level that being who
you are and the consequencesthat might come with being who
you are is more beneficial thanbeing the self-protective
version of yourself.
So what that might look like inreal life is if you're somebody
(21:32):
who doesn't cry in front ofother people, you don't feel
comfortable crying in front ofother people, because maybe
crying for you is like theultimate form of this person is
going to think that I'm notstrong and they're going to
leave me.
Crying equals weakness, equalsabandonment.
I can't handle that, my bodycannot handle that and a lot of
people will do this, like youmentioned earlier, like the
(21:55):
inner child work, they'll havethese emotional releases, some
emotional processing going on.
All that stuff is reallyimportant, but it's actually in
that moment, a lot of the time,when that person actually
decides, in a real situationwith a real human being that
you're really, you really have arelationship with.
You know what I really want tojust cry right now, and I know
(22:16):
that if I cry, this person mightactually leave.
I know that if I cry, thisperson might not respond well,
but the price that I'm payingfor being this person who holds
it all together is costing memore than this person leaving
would cost me Is me being honestabout who I am actually worth
the risk, and that's not an easyplace to get to, and it can
(22:40):
feel like the scariest thing andthe most freeing thing at the
same time, because most of thetime, our worst fear doesn't
come true.
Most of the time, it's not goingto be as bad as you think it's
going to be, because the part ofyou that's predicting the worst
case scenario is still fiveyears old, seven years old, 13
years old.
It's the part of you that'sstill predicting the worst case
(23:00):
scenario is still five years old, seven years old, 13 years old.
It's the part of you that'sstill predicting the worst case
scenario because of somethingthat happened in the past and
this moment isn't that moment,but we feel like it's going to
be, and then we spend yearstrying to make sure that moment
never happens again.
And so that type of scenariowhere you just cry anyway, or
apply it to any pattern that youhave in your life it's not just
the crying, it's the.
(23:21):
I don't need to be this personanymore to be safe.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
How can people in your life obviously you can't
put this on other people, butyou also.
We choose who we let into ourlife, right?
I mean maybe not family, butlike friendships, romantic
partners.
So how can like choosing therelationships that we get to
actually choose in our life,whatever they are?
(23:45):
How can we go about that in away that we are setting
ourselves up for truly beingourselves and feeling safe to do
so?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
So how do we choose people in our lives that we feel
safe around?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I guess because a lot of people just kind of they
just want people.
The idea of being alone or nothaving people is so terrifying,
whether it's friends or romanticrelationships or anything like
that.
We just need to feel likeeverybody's.
I got to have my tribe airquotes but a lot of times I've
just witnessed people's tribe islike that is not a healthy
(24:20):
tribe to be in.
No wonder who can feel safebeing around that.
So how do we help ourselves?
Instead of choosing things thatin the past would have?
I guess repeating the cycle Iguess that's what I'm trying to
get at is.
A lot of times we repeat thecycle, the narrative that we're
stuck in from the past, but wemake it happen over and over
(24:40):
again for ourselves.
So, in this shift, what arethings we can be doing to
actually allow ourselves tocreate an environment or
relationships that are conduciveto allow that to happen for us?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
We have to take responsibility fully for every
relationship we've ever had.
We have to take responsibilityfully for every relationship
we've ever had, and especiallythe ones we left feeling like a
victim and taking fullresponsibility for not every
relationship you chose right,like, for example, you didn't
choose what parents you're bornto, right relationships or
(25:20):
friendships.
It's not just oh, they did thisto me.
I have trauma from this personand now I'm spending the rest of
my year or my life recovering.
It's also why did I need thatperson?
What part of me actually neededthat person?
Even if they were toxic, evenif they hurt me, what part of me
was more safe, felt more safe,being the person in the
relationship who was the goodperson?
They hurt me.
(25:42):
I'm the victim, and it's notthat that person didn't actually
hurt you.
But is there a part of you thatfeels safer being in a dynamic
like that, because maybe you'reemotionally unavailable, or
maybe being in a relationshipwith someone who treats you well
is actually putting you in thisposition where you feel so seen
and not in a good way.
(26:03):
Yeah, maybe somebody does fullyshow up for you and that's
actually terrifying, taking fullresponsibility for the
relationships that we've been inand the role that we played and
why we might have needed acertain dynamic to play out in
these relationships, because ifwe don't see that, then those
things stay under the surface,in the dark, and we play them
(26:25):
out again because they're stillin the dark.
It's not until you bringsomething into the light that we
have the ability to change it.
And so you're asking, like youknow, what kind of work can we
do to bring people into ourlives that are actually going to
be supportive and we can have ahealthy relationship with?
And we need to do our own innerwork, and our best reference is
(26:46):
the relationships that wecurrently have in our lives and
the relationships we've had inthe past.
That is our mirror, that is ourability to kind of go in a
little deeper and know ourselvesa bit more.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
That's good, that's really good.
I also want to talk about thisweird energy that we're supposed
to achieve healing.
There is a level of healingwhere it stops everything solved
and fixed and so I want to getyour input on how these shifts
evolve over time, and are wealways going to be seeing these
(27:18):
shifts of ourself, and if so,how do we welcome that in a
positive way versus letting thatlike freak the fuck out of us?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
That there's always going to be a shift?
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah, because, like, we're not ever going to achieve
healing, Like as long as we'realive, shit's going to be
happening and we're going tohopefully be evolving.
Just the evolution through yourlife is kind of what I'm asking
about People who think they canachieve being healed, which I
don't know.
Maybe you're like no, Liz, youcan Try harder babes.
(27:48):
But yeah, that's my question.
I think.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
First, you have to ask yourself what do I think
being healed is going to get me,what do I think is going to
happen, or how am I going tofeel once I'm healed?
Because whatever the answer tothat is, is the thing that you
want access to.
And what would you say foryourself, since you feel like
you relate to this pattern?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
I feel like this is borderline an interview and a
therapy.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I think like I feel this either.
By the way, I feel this too.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah, yeah, well, I think that's a great call.
We'll go to that after, butI'll put a pin in it.
I think it's a really greatthing that, like, therapists and
coaches are still learning andevolving, and the information
they give us and the help theygive us is wonderful.
But I think we can put thosepeople on a pedestal.
My mentor, I can put her on apedestal so easily and she's
(28:40):
like nah, babe, I'm stillworking on my stuff, I'm not
Jesus.
So I mean for me, probably whyrelationships and stuff even
came up naturally in thisinterview is I think there's a
level of security that I want toachieve and I just don't.
I want to genuinely get to aplace where I do not care what
people think, because there'sbeen a pattern, whether it's
(29:02):
romantically or just I meanwe've talked about this in my
therapy session I just care sointensely about external
validation.
So I think I don't think sayingI'll never care what people
think, but I think if I couldgenuinely get to a spot where
I'm just okay, cool, great.
If I could genuinely get to aspot where I'm just okay, cool,
great, that would be a sign of Idon't think I'd feel healed,
(29:27):
but I feel shifts had happenedfor me, I guess in a really good
way.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, because there's a couple layers right.
There's the you caring a lotabout what people think, putting
a lot of weight on what otherpeople think, but then there's
also, on top of that, how youperceive yourself for being
somebody who cares other peoplethink.
But then there's also, on topof that, how you perceive
yourself for being somebody whocares what people think.
Does that make sense?
That got meta.
Say it again yeah, you justhaving this experience of
(29:50):
putting a lot of weight on whatother people think of you, which
is one thing, right.
But then there's this secondlayer on top of that, which is
Right.
But then there's this secondlayer on top of that, which is
Liz seeing Liz in a certainlight or having that pattern.
To begin with, let me ask youthis Ready Go?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
ahead.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I'm ready.
All right, if you kind ofstepped outside of yourself for
a second and you see the versionof you who cares a lot about
what people think.
What is your perception of herit?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
makes me sad, like, desperate, like.
My perception of her is justlike reeking of desperation and
in a way that's heartbreaking tome.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
So she's desperate.
Yes, yeah, and you're sayingit's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, is there any judgment.
Yeah, a little bit Like whycan't you just be good with you?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, the heartbreak is one thing, right, that's like
one layer of emotion.
And then the judgment of whycan't you be good with you is
another emotion or experience,right, that judgment itself, to
me, is more of where the work isthan in you actually caring
(31:04):
what other people think.
Okay, because at the end of theday, you're a human being and
we're social creatures.
Right, and caring what otherpeople think is something that,
unless you are clinically asociopath, yeah, you struggle
with to some degree, and somaybe you, you know, if we could
like find the stats and findthe average of how much people
(31:26):
care about other people, maybeyou would be above, maybe you
would be the same.
I don't really know.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
And that's fair right , like it's not, like this
doesn't exist and you just haveto accept it, move on and like
never think about it again.
You're experiencing that morethan you want to experience it,
right?
But instead of going straightto how do I stop caring what
people think I shouldn't care,what people think this is wrong,
this is too much.
Instead just noticing that youare judging yourself for caring
(31:52):
instead of actually meetingyourself there.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
That's creating a lot of resistance yeah, I haven't
even like thought about that.
That's wild.
Which obviously the way thisinterview is gone, like I
because of the questions andstuff like that, you know I go
more into like veryintellectualizing things.
So I know, just talking to you.
That that's me thinking.
What I should do is not carewhat people think of me, and
(32:17):
then that's where, like thebutting happens.
I get really frustrated withmyself for caring I.
Then that's where the buttinghappens.
I get really frustrated withmyself for caring and I think
that's a really good point.
Obviously, we used me as anexample, but my sister made the
point because over-therapizingeverything or over-awareness, a
lot of times I feel like we havejust normal human, innately
(32:39):
human reactions and because ofall the mental health awareness
and all the like stuff that wesee online and everything, we
therapize those reactionsinstead of being you're not
going to be walking around likesmelling the roses every day,
like, I guess, the what we'refed of, like true happiness or
(33:02):
whatever.
So I do want to turn it on itshead a little bit and ask you.
I do want to know like what?
Not your way past timelines,but the things that you've
really had to work and overcome,not only through being a
therapist but doing your owninternal work.
Because I know we put ourtherapists and our coaches or
(33:22):
whoever on a pedestalcelebrities, whatever, whoever
you put on a pedestal and it'slike they're still a fucking
human.
So I want to know for you whatyou've had to overcome or what
shifts you've had to work onwith yourself, just to humanize
you a little bit.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I actually don't have any problems, never have, okay
cool.
Thanks guys for listening.
My name is MindBodyNina.
See you guys.
Yeah, it's MindBodyNina andshe's kind of like Jesus, so
yeah, no, this is a greatquestion and I actually don't
think anybody in any podcast hasever asked me this, so this is
actually really cool.
The first thing I'll say is theonly reason why I feel like I
(34:05):
can articulate things andexplain them is because I've had
to work through all of thesethings myself.
I don't even talk about thingsthat I haven't worked through
myself.
It would feel like such aforeign, odd topic.
It would be like me trying toteach somebody how to change a
car tire which I don't know howto do at all.
So that's the first thing.
(34:28):
I think the first thing thatcame to mind when you were
asking me that is the challengeof always wanting to be on step
10 and having to accept that I'mon step one or two or three or
not step 10.
Because my experiencethroughout my life has been you
know how people talk about yourgreatest strength is your
(34:49):
greatest weakness too.
I feel in my life I had a lotof trauma growing up and it was
back to back to back to back toback, like I felt, like I never
got to come up for air and Ifelt myself I want to say in
like middle school and highschool.
It was even before that, but Ithink that was the peak for me.
Like middle school and highschool.
It was even before that, but Ithink that was the peak for me.
(35:10):
Like middle school and highschool, I could feel myself
really spiraling a lot and I letmyself spiral.
I went into a really reallydeep depression and I was
comfortable there.
I wanted to be there.
I didn't want to be out of it.
I made it my own identity toeven be there.
Want to be out of it.
I made it my own identity toeven be there.
(35:31):
Something eventually kind of hitme where I was like if I stay
here, I'm not going to be ableto live the life that I want and
I don't ever want to be.
This is in my high school mindright.
Like I don't want to be a 20year old, I don't want to be a
25 year old, I don't want to bea 30 yearyear-old, 35, 40,
50-year-old who has the sameproblems that I see my family
(35:51):
having or I see the peoplearound me having.
So if I stay here then I mightend up in that same situation
and I don't want to do that.
That realization gave me a lotof strength to keep going and to
change a lot of things and tomove.
It made me start doing a lot ofinner work, but I think it also
put me in a mindset where I ranso fast and I took so many
(36:13):
steps so quickly that I didn'tfully accept that the life that
I lived for so long was sopainful and disappointing and
hurtful and shitty.
Yeah, I was trying to escape itfor so long that I didn't fully
accept it and I still, to thisday, sometimes find myself
(36:34):
trying to get out of shittyscenarios that I don't fully
accept where I'm at.
So that's something that's beena really big challenge, but
I've seen it more clearly overthe years, which has made it,
you know, a bit I don't want tosay easier to work through, but
it's allowed me to work throughit.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I do want to ask, like when you started seeing
that shift, at whatever age youwere, and you're like I don't
want to stay here, and youstarted doing a lot of work,
were like what did that looklike for you?
Were you doing what we'reseeing people doing,
intellectualizing it, or wereyou just reaching at anything
that you thought?
Because you, it sounds like youwere a teenager or a kid when
(37:15):
you started doing this, so,which is awesome and really
scary at the same time so yeahwhat were you reaching for in
that time?
I, I guess.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Google was everything .
I think it realized that youcould Google anything and I
never really fully processedthat before.
So I think I was maybe 16.
I want to say I was like 16.
And I was in a relationshipthat was just like I was with
this guy who, like, cheated onme with 15 girls at this rave or
(37:49):
something Lovely, and I wasjust going through it and I
remember having this momentwhere I was like I don't know
what to do.
I don't know who to talk to.
I don't know who to go to forthis.
All my friends hated this guy,absolutely despised him.
So I didn't feel like I couldgo to my friends.
They would have just been likewe told you not to date him.
(38:12):
I'm like, oh shit, they wereright.
I wasn't going to tell myparents and I didn't know who
else to talk to.
So I was like you know what?
I think I can Google this and Idon't remember what came up, but
I remember I would find theselike blog posts and stuff that
were just talking about like 10signs you're in a toxic
relationship or whatever theywere.
And even though the internet isthe wild wild west and you
(38:33):
don't know what you're going toget out of it, I actually think
it was nice to have somewhere togo that had steps and proof
that other people were goingthrough the same thing.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, I do think I agree with you with that, like I
mean honestly anything you.
I do think I agree with youwith that, like I mean honestly
anything you're struggling with.
I feel like you can find sometype of podcast episode on it
and I had that realizationrecently that I was like you're
not the only one, it's okay,other people are dealing with
this.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, and I think that's important in the
beginning.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
But after so much time it's like, okay, well, what
are we doing?
I just think it's really cooltoo that you point out that
those things from back thenstill come up today.
You've done a lot of work andyou probably handle it a whole
lot better today.
I do want to ask you aboutpresent day, I mean honestly,
how you handle that stuff whenit does still come up, knowing
what you know now and whatyou've embodied now.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, I think.
Can I add something to what Iwas saying before?
First, yes, of course.
So I found Google.
I asked Google a lot ofquestions.
That felt like the only thing Ihad.
But I also ended up going to atherapist and I wanted to go to
therapy.
Not everybody wants to go totherapy, especially at that age.
Therapist and I wanted to go totherapy.
Not everybody wants to go totherapy, especially at that age,
but I really wanted to go and Ididn't really have the best
(39:55):
experience with my therapist,but it kind of introduced me to
therapy.
And then when I was in collegeI think it was sophomore or
junior year of college I had atherapist who I didn't want
because he was a guy and Ididn't want to work with a guy
therapist.
I just was like that'suncomfortable, I don't know how
I'm going to feel, whatever.
But I didn't get to choosebecause it was just the way that
(40:16):
it was set up at my school andI hear him call my name and I
was like, oh, of course, theonly guy here.
I got him, I don't want to be atherapist.
And he comes out and I go inand I'm just like kind of like
awkwardly sitting there.
Long story short, this mancompletely changed my life, and
one of the reasons why wasbecause he pushed me so much to
do things that made meuncomfortable, and I think that
(40:39):
that can trigger a lot of people, and I think that if I was the
wrong person in that room, itwould have gone the opposite
direction.
Yeah, but he really reallypushed me, and I think that's
something that's so underratedin society these days is like
being pushed a bit, not over,pushed to the point where you
spiral, but being pushed justenough that you have to work
(41:02):
through all the way throughstuff.
Yeah, instead of this, like,well, are you comfortable with
this?
Okay, that's fine, we won't gothere at all if you're not
comfortable.
And like doing this thing wherewe kind of beat around the bush
for a really long time becausewe're not comfortable with
things, right, yeah, I agreewith that, because I've had a
lot of therapists.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
I've had a lot of therapists.
No, but like just, I do feellike, after so many sessions,
I'm like what the hell are wedoing.
But like just, I do feel like,after so many sessions, I'm like
what the hell are we doing?
I feel it's just like Liz's onehour event session and then I
go home.
I want to see actual change andI do agree with you that I
think getting pushed and beinghey, no, this sucks, but do you
want to keep living the way thatyou're living?
(41:43):
No, okay, let's do somethingabout it.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah, and that's.
If that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
It's like what are we doing then?
Right, you're going to therapyfor a reason.
You're not.
Typically, we go to therapybecause we don't like the way
that we're showing up currentlyin life, or we recognize we're
doing the same shit over andover again.
So if I mean, I know somepeople go to therapy and they
don't want to go to therapy, butmost people who voluntarily go
to therapy and it's not an hourto talk with your best friend,
you know, or the person who'sforced to listen to you actually
(42:13):
want to go in there and getsomething out of it.
So, I agree with you, though,having a therapist that pushes
you, or even what you just said,however many minutes ago, about
owning the relationships, evenwhere you feel like a victim,
like people don't want to hearthat, but it's.
You were in that situation.
It takes two to tango.
You know, even if you were avictim, even if it was the worst
relationship ever, there wassomething there that kept you
(42:35):
there.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
And people push you in your relationships and your
friendships too, is important,and the reality is that you will
lose friendships, you'll loserelationships, you'll lose you
know.
You might have like a week whereyou hate your therapist, that
you know what I changed my mindabout her.
I don't like her anymore, likeshe sucks, like she doesn't get
me and like the reality is,whether it's your relationships,
(42:59):
your therapist, whatever it ischallenges being present and
having people who can workthrough them and being able to
develop the skills communicationskills, the emotional
regulation skills to be able towork through these things.
That, to me, is what actuallymakes people happier in life,
because then you're front andcenter with life, knowing that
(43:20):
you have the ability to face itand get through it, instead of
us being stuck in freeze all thetime because we weren't taught
the skills, we don't know how tohandle a lot of different
situations and everything's kindof a lot, everything's
overwhelming, and so the onlyoption we have is to kind of
like hide from life or run fromlife, and then that becomes
(43:41):
depression, that becomes anxietythat just never really goes
away.
And again, we don't have topathologize those things.
That just never really goesaway.
And again.
We don't have to pathologizethose things.
Anxiety is also a natural partof life, but it gets out of
control when we don't have theskills to face hard things.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
This is my last thing I wanted to hit, but you just
brought it up.
I really want to get your inputon it.
Nervous system regulation,emotional regulation I feel like
those are very hot topic wordsand some people, even myself,
sometimes I'm like how the helldo I regulate?
Everyone's like you'redysregulated or whatever, and so
I just think that'd be helpful.
What is this nervous systemregulation that we hear so much
(44:19):
about, or emotional regulation?
Yeah, that'll be my lastquestion for you, and then I'll
wrap it up so I can let you go.
I don't want to hold you up.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
Awesome, I have time, we're good.
But nervous system regulationto me means different things
when it comes out of differentpeople's mouths.
I don't think nervous systemregulation actually counts as a
formal term.
I think it's a term that'sbecome very popular and people
think they know what it means.
(44:47):
I think, as somebody who workswith our survival responses,
when I hear the term nervoussystem regulation, my
understanding of it is that wehave a flexible nervous system,
which just means that aregulated nervous system is a
nervous system that can go intofight or flight and then can
come back into safety andconnection.
It can go into freeze and thenit can go into fight or flight
(45:10):
and then it can come back.
It's flexible.
So it's not a nervous systemthat is so small in terms of
capacity that as soon as we getstressed, we're being shot out
of that window of tolerance.
We're being shot out of thatsafe and connected window and
then we're being thrown intofight or flight, and then
getting out of fight or flighttakes a really long time because
(45:33):
we don't know how to come back.
We don't feel safe enough, likeyou know.
Yada, yada, yada.
Yeah, a regulated nervoussystem is the ability to just go
in and out of different states.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
That's a really, really good point, and I think
nobody would think of nervoussystem regulation Because people
are like we should be avoidingfreeze fight or flight.
How do we stay out of those?
And if we're out of those,we're regulated, so I think
that's super helpful, whichfeeds back into that.
Let me achieve my most perfectself.
(46:03):
That's completely not realistic, but it's not that we're never
not going to experience thosethings.
It's just how quickly can wereturn to Okay?
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Yeah, how?
How can you return and how longdoes it take you to return?
Do you have the skills, youhave the tools to be able to
come back and do you haveliterally the like, the capacity
to be able to hold things?
Is your capacity narrow?
And if you have trauma, themore trauma you have, the more
narrow your window of toleranceis going to be.
(46:40):
But if you get up, maybe youeat your breakfast, you get
ready for work and then, I don'tknow, your dog runs out into
the street or something.
Is that going to throw yourwhole day off?
Is it going to throw your wholeweek off?
Or is it something that's likeoh my God, this is crazy, this
is so stressful.
You get your dog back in,you're stressed for the next
like 15 minutes, but then youkind of know how to come back
(47:00):
and, like your system just kindof naturally has the flexibility
to come back into balance.
Yeah, okay has the flexibilityto come back into balance.
Yeah, okay, you know, or is itsomething that your system has
to take a whole week to recoverfrom?
And that's not bad right?
It's just kind of showing whatwe can hold.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Yeah, no, and I think that's a good point to also say
it's not bad, because we thinkof these things a lot of times
in very black and white ways.
Yeah, so I think like that'snot necessarily bad.
That's just where you arecurrently.
Yeah, so I think like that'snot necessarily bad.
That's just where you arecurrently.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, and I see these videos of people saying you
know like you don't need nervoussystem regulation.
People overhype nervous systemregulation and I agree that if
we're talking about nervoussystem regulation as a checklist
of doing breath work andmeditation and like feeling
anything bad, yeah, and liketaking your shoes off and going
outside and grounding, like ifwe think of those things as
(47:54):
regulation, we're not fullyunderstanding because it's not
about what you're doing, it'sabout your nervous system's
flexibility and like capacity no, I'm glad we like finished with
that.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I think that's super helpful and beneficial to people
.
Yeah, I love this.
I hope you enjoyed it too.
I know I went over a little bit, but I want to let you plug
your stuff really quick, likewhere you're at, what you're
doing right now on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I'm at mindbodynina.
My website ishumansunpluggedcom, which is
where, like my coaching is, youcan find my community, my
podcast, everything throughthere, and I'm mostly on
Instagram.
Yeah, she is.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
That's how I found her Awesome.
Thank you so much, Nina.
Thank you, Liz.
This is so fun.
Yeah, I had a blast.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Me too.
Hey everybody, welcome back to.
I Am Me, my name is Liz Bachman, I am your host and today I
have a super special guest, ninaDeFrancisco.
She's actually my therapist,but she's a holistic therapist,
which means she focuses veryheavily on the mind-body
connection so that we canintegrate all this stuff that we
learn via self-help books,self-help podcasts and in our
therapy sessions and actuallyget that integrated into our
(00:22):
body.
She is very, very smart, she'sbeen through a lot, she has her
own coaching business as well,and she has a beautiful
community called HumansUnplugged.
But I really just wanted to sitdown with her to get some of
this amazing information thatshe has out to the people that
listen to my show.
So, with all that said, let'sdive into today's episode.
I cannot wait for you guys tohear this one.
(00:43):
All right, so we are diving inwith Nina DeFrancisco.
Did I do that right?
Yeah, I'll do that better whenI do the intro.
So first, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Nina, I'm doing really good.
It's lunch, been enjoying myday.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Okay.
So I reached out to Nina, fulldisclosure, yesterday to ask her
kind of what she wanted to talkabout, because she is a
bottomless pit of knowledge inmy opinion.
So I wanted to know kind ofwhere her head is at and I
that's how I prepped for thisinterview today.
So I'm going to let you kind ofrecap that and then we'll dive
into the actual interview aroundthat.
So recap, just let, if you leteverybody know, kind of like
(01:20):
what you're practicing or whatyou're with therapy and coaching
and stuff like that, whatyou're actually seeing, what
you're with therapy and coachingand stuff like that, what
you're actually seeing working.
Because I feel like we get sobombarded in the health and
wellness space and mental healthspace about this and that and
that.
But yesterday you mentionedthere's a lot of external stuff
that people are doing which ispart of the work.
But if you actually want to seea shift inside of yourself, I'm
(01:42):
losing my.
I'll let you go from therebecause it's your work.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I think this is such an exciting conversation because
I think there's so many toolsout there for health, healing,
wellness and so many of them areso valuable.
But I think for a lot of people,and especially people who
intellectualize a lot and getstuck in their head a lot, a lot
of the courses and advice outthere isn't considering people
(02:09):
who intellectualize, which is alot of people right, like that's
kind of bypassed in theteaching of things.
I'm like, hi, that's how Istarted working with you, and I
think what's hard about that isthat there is so much good
information out there.
But then there's the questionof are you the right person at
the right time for thatinformation?
Is that information that youcan actually take and integrate
(02:31):
into your life?
Or is this information that'sgoing to feed more into this
barrel of things that you nowknow but don't actually know in
your body?
You don't actually have itintegrated.
You haven't actually gainedthis wisdom on your own.
It's just something that youlearn from somebody else.
You know it to be truesomewhere deep inside, but you
haven't actually gone throughfully learning that thing
(02:54):
spiritually and physically,literally in your body, like
muscle memory.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Now, when you I do want to talk about that because
I hear that a lot more and morelike people talking about great,
you all this knowledge, but youneed to embody it or feel it in
your body.
What does that actually looklike?
Because I think people whointellectualize this stuff are
like great check, how do we getthis in our body?
So what does that actually looklike when you're saying I want
to get this, like you got to getthis in your body, all this
(03:20):
information that we have up inour heads?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
yeah, yeah.
So I don't think about it asmuch as like taking the
information and then likegetting it all integrated from
mind to body.
I think about it more as like,if we put all of that
information aside for a second,where are you actually at in
your life right now?
How do you actually feel, how doyou actually see yourself and
how do you actually see thethings in your life?
(03:44):
But if you put all of thosethings to the side, because we
can bypass so much of what wefeel and so much of our
experience by constantly goingup into the head and jumping
into those things but whathappens when you do go back down
into your experience and whatthat would look like is, instead
of talking about a lot ofpeople will say well, I know, I
(04:04):
should feel like this because bynow you know, like I'm kind of
at the point in my life wherehold on, cut, cut, cut.
How do you actually feel inthis present moment?
And letting there be some spacefor that and letting there be
time to process that instead ofthe this is where you should be,
or this is what you think isright, or this is where you want
(04:26):
to be, or for the past 10 yearsyou've been in this place.
All of that is relevant in someway, but if we don't first go
into what's happening right now,then we're going to be stuck
somewhere else and stuck inthese endless loops and cycles
for so long.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So when you, I feel like a lot of people talk about
tuning into the present moment,but I think people genuinely
don't know how to do that.
Like if you, if we were talkingto someone who had just been
gorging themselves on self-helpbooks, but none of it is
transpiring, what would yourecommend for someone actually
getting into the present moment?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I love that.
Yeah, I like that.
You're getting super practicaland that's what's really needed.
That's you literally getting inthe present moment, in this
moment, and I think there's alot of different tools that you
can use, a lot of differentsomatic tools, but grounding
tools are really important and Ithink, especially for people
(05:27):
who intellectualize groundingtools can feel like somebody
offering you a lollipop at thebank.
I'm a grown up, what do youmean?
Like grounding tools, what doyou mean?
I'm too far along for thesethings.
I don't need that.
But grounding might look like,you know, there's like the
5-4-3-2-1 technique where it'slike what are five things you
(05:48):
can see around you?
And it's like really gettingyou into your senses, pulling
you out of the analyticalproblem solving mind and back
into what's actually around youCan you look at, can you
identify things in yourenvironment?
Can you, you know, name fourthings that you can hear?
Can you name four things thatyou can hear?
Can you name three things thatyou can feel?
(06:09):
Two things that you can smell,one that you can?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
taste.
Part of the reason I want tointerview you is because I want
to get actual practical thingsthat if someone has no idea what
to do because I was the personand I still very much am
unlearning, the gorging myselfon self-help and love help
podcasts and all that crap, andI feel like a lot of people are
doing that but then I mean we'vetalked about in our sessions
(06:32):
before.
Then you just have this bowl ofinformation.
You're like what the F do I dowith all this shit?
So I one of the things I wantedto when I like interviewing you
today was actually give peoplepractical things of what does
embodiment mean when we hearthat?
Or I also want to talk to you alittle bit about you know, we
(06:55):
hear a lot of the inner childwork, shadow work, meditation.
You mentioned yesterday goingto the gym, eating a better diet
, all these, which are all theseshould things right, these
things that we're told we shouldbe doing, but then we're not
feeling any type of internalchange.
I'm just going to open thefloor and let you talk about
that, because I think that is sorelevant today.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Should we talk about practical tools first, or do you
want to talk about the secondthing first?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
More about like this yeah, you're in therapist coach
mode, which I love.
It'll make this go smoother.
Let's talk about practicaltools and then we'll kind of
like dive into like that yeah,that was me kind of jumping
ahead, but let's talk about somepractical tools Because I think
that's so needed.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, totally agree, and I think 54321, one of the of
the most popular somaticgrounding tools.
Another one that I use for myclients this is something that I
just used for myself for somany years and that I ended up
sharing mostly in my community,but I've recently started
sharing it with some clients toois BGSP.
(07:59):
It's a little acronym toremember anywhere any time of
day, and the B stands for breath, and when people think of
breath, a lot of the time theygo straight to this big inhale
and, okay, let me take thisreally deep breath.
And sure, we want to make surewe're not breathing shallow.
But in this context, breath isliterally just noticing your
(08:20):
breath.
You don't have to changeanything, because even just
bringing attention to thatnaturally allows you to focus on
something that is sustainable.
It allows you to focus onsomething that is with you all
the time and you don't have togo straight into well, how can I
do this better?
But just to, I'm breathing, howam I breathing?
(08:41):
Nice, and just feeling that.
And then, after spending acouple seconds noticing, then
starting to say, okay, well,what if I breathed a little bit
deeper and slower?
Then how do I feel?
Not with any type of expectation, but just this curiosity and
this tuning in, and after you'vekind of just spent a little bit
(09:03):
of time there.
And again, I like this becauseit's something you can do at
home, or it's something you cando on the train yeah.
On the bus.
Or walking down the street yeah, I do this when I'm walking
down the street all the time,and then moving to G, which is
gaze, and when we're in fight orflight, our eyes, our eye
movement is really quick andit's very narrow, so we tend to
(09:26):
look ahead of us and we tend tonot have much side to side.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, we're not.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, so just like again, we're not trying to do
anything or force anything major, we're just bringing attention
to.
Can I soften my gaze a bit andlike slowly look around and like
even blink slowly a bit?
And like slowly look around andlike even blink slowly.
And then, if we move over to S,is stillness.
(09:51):
And again, a lot of peoplethink of stillness and they
think that this literally meansnot moving at all, which it can
mean that.
But stillness in this contextis there is something inside of
you that is always still, that'snever moving, that's always
there.
Can you locate that sense inyou?
It's not something you have tofind in the sense of creating it
, it's something that's alreadythere.
(10:12):
Can you kind of tap into that alittle bit?
And then P is posture.
Again, a lot of people hearposture and they do this thing,
yeah, this Straight up, right,just like people put their chest
out because that's what theythink feels really straight.
But posture just being, a lotof the time we're in a
conversation, we're sitting,we're working and we don't even
(10:33):
realize that, like the pressurethat we're putting on our legs,
our feet, our back is actuallyreally uncomfortable because
we're so in our heads that we'renot focusing on the sensations
in the body at all.
So posture in this context isliterally just can you move
yourself into a position thatactually feels nice for you and
(10:54):
actually pay attention?
Are you sitting reallyscrunched up and like your back
is actually in this positionthat if you stay here for
another 10 minutes it's going toend up giving you back pain
later?
Or, if you're leaning on yourhip in a certain way, are you
going to be like, oh, where didI get this hip?
Ache Hip pain.
What do?
I have on this I have no ideawhere it came from, because I
was so out of it when I wassitting that way.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, I think too and correct me if I'm wrong but
with that BGSP, it sounds likeslowness comes into play a lot,
which I think actually leads usinto the next thing that I
brought up, because I feel likewe've taken mental health and
(11:34):
made it hustle culture in a way.
Okay, all right, I have my job,I have this and now I have my
mental health checklist andwe're going to do our meditation
or journaling or, you know, goto the gym, do our yoga,
whatever, and it's like thecheck, check, check, check,
check.
So I think, like just hearingwhat you're saying slowness all
(11:55):
of that was what you were doingwas slow, checking in slowly,
and not even you saying checkingin with posture and not being
like upright, but like justactually checking in and being
like what's my posture like?
Or checking in with your breathand not immediately, like
taking a deep breath.
Like that really leads intothat Like hustle culture of
(12:16):
health and wellness, like, oh,time to take a deep breath, you
know, like instead of just beingwhere's my breath at right now.
Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
I want to just open up thefloor for your thoughts on all
this and just how to help peopleshift out of it.
I know in our sessions beforewe've talked, you're like if
journaling doesn't work for you,why are you journaling?
(12:37):
You know it's not.
I guess it's not that thesethings are bad things, but the
way that we are using them inour day-to-day life might not
actually be benefiting us.
I just want to get your insighton that.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, and I think it does lead so well into this next
topic because the way that Isee it, I'm a very visual person
and I really like analogies, soI picture somebody sitting in a
chair.
This is going to be such an oddimage no, it's fine, we're here
(13:11):
for it.
Somebody sitting in a chair,right, and imagine this like
really big monster with itsmouth open underneath you Okay,
okay, I got it Locked in Okay,really big monster with its
mouth open underneath you andyou're kind of just like sitting
on its tongue almost okayanything that you do, anything
you add to your routine.
I don't care if it's the mostspiritual ass shit, the thing
(13:33):
that the person you admire themost recommended to you, if it's
the thing that has been swornby for 10 000 years or if it has
all the scientific researchbehind it.
Most of the time, as long asthat monster is underneath you,
anything you take on is going toend up in that monster's mouth.
Right, it's going to eat it up.
(13:54):
Yeah, because you're sitting ontop of it Like there's no way
around it, because the monsteris still there.
Yes, what is the actual monster?
It's not actually a monster,right, it's like our
self-protection, right, but Ithink the best word to call it
is identity.
So, as long as you are somebodywho needs to be the person who
(14:16):
keeps it all together, or you'rethe person who doesn't rock the
boat because you're the niceone and nobody dislikes you, and
you're the person who you knowlike, doesn't stir anything up,
or maybe you're the person whois really strong and doesn't
express vulnerability there'sall these different types of
identities as long as thoseidentities are alive, everything
(14:36):
will feed in to them.
Yeah, so this monsterquote-unquote is who we think we
have to be in order to be safe,and when we start adding all
these things into our routines,we then use those things in
order to continue playing outthese roles and these identities
, unless we do get lucky andsomething does kind of help us
(14:57):
have an identity shift.
A lot of the time, this happensby accident, right, like when
people go on vacations, forexample.
People say this all the time.
Maybe we've talked about thisbefore, but a lot of Americans
will like go to Europe andthey'll be like oh my God, all
my symptoms are gone, like I hadIBS and I don't have it, or I
have gluten intolerance and Idon't have it there.
And a lot of people attributethis to the food.
(15:19):
And yes, the food in the US isvery it's got a lot of
concerning things and physicalbody is a real thing.
Obviously, differentingredients are going to have a
different impact on the body.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
But that's not the whole picture.
Yeah, you're also leaving yourenvironment, where you're so
accustomed to your stressors.
Yeah, you've learned how toadapt to the people around you.
You've learned how to adapt toyour physical environment, your
work, your so many things.
You're leaving the country andyou're going into a completely
new place with completelydifferent cues, probably with
(15:51):
different people, and if notdifferent people, then different
versions of people, becausethey're on vacation too, or
they're leaving theirenvironment too, and all of
these things are changing.
It changes the way that ourbodies respond.
It changes stress.
It changes who we think we haveto.
It changes stress.
It changes who we think we haveto be, or these protective
identities that we have.
A lot of.
That shifts when we go abroador go on some type of vacation,
(16:14):
and then, when we come back,it's like oh, it's back, it's
like a rubber band.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Exactly, I've definitely had the urge and I
know other people have just go,just go, and I, I guess my
question is what for people whodon't have the ability to like
just pack up and leave and starta new life somewhere else, or
even go on a European vacationor you know whatever, like I
guess, because I do thinkthere's huge shifts when you get
out of your natural routineenvironment and all that, but
(16:43):
what are things we can be doingin our day-to-day life to
naturally see those shifts?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, and I think it's more important to do it
regardless of whether or notyou're going on any type of trip
, because the truth is, if youleave and you stay in that place
long enough, most of yourpatterns will return, and if not
, then when you come backthey're going to return right
Like it's.
Sometimes it can be a true shift, but sometimes it's not a true
shift, and it's really importantthat we can actually have the
(17:10):
skills and the tools to workthrough these things.
And the first thing that we haveto become aware of is who this
person is, that we've learned tobecome in order to feel safe
and loved and to belong.
And there's a lot of aspects ofour personality that are
adapted for safety, love andbelonging, but there's going to
(17:30):
be certain parts of us that aremuch more in fear than other
parts.
So you know, for example, ifsomebody is like, okay, I want
to understand my identities, Iwant to understand how I'm
trying to earn safety, love andbelonging, one of the first
things we can do is just askwhere are you noticing a pattern
(17:51):
in your life, in the way thatyou're feeling or the way that
you seem to think that thingswork out?
So, for example, right.
Somebody might be like mybusiness is failing, my
relationship is failing and whatelse is there?
Like I just put in an offer fora house and I didn't show right
.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Okay, everything's a shit show.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
So, right, like, maybe somebody says it like that
, or maybe even somebody is justlike, what's going on in my
life right now is like you know,these three things aren't
working out.
Okay, well, let's see ifthere's any common feeling about
these three things and youmight kind of realize, wow, I
feel like a failure in all threeof them.
I feel like a failure in a lotof areas of my life.
Okay, well, this feeling of I'ma failure, there might be some
(18:36):
type of identity around that orsome type of self-protective
role around that, meaning wheredid we learn this, how is it
still playing out and how?
I always try to be carefulabout the way that I say this,
because I don't want anybody tothink that they're doing it on
purpose.
But what is actually benefitingme about feeling like a failure
?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, which there are benefits to our behaviors or
patterns or whatever that wedon't want.
There's always something there.
We learned it for a reason atsome point.
I wanted to ask you aboutidentity.
So you're talking about thisidentity at the root and talking
about these shifts.
A lot of times there's afighting back if we're actually
(19:19):
starting to see the shift, kindof like that rubber band.
No, no, no, no.
This has been working for usfor so long like let's, what are
you doing?
So what are yourrecommendations for people like
that period trying to get youtalked about a version of
yourself?
I literally wrote it down.
Wait, I want to say what youactually said without an
(19:39):
identity shift, we don'tactually get to experience
another version of ourselves inthis life.
So when you're actually tryingto have that identity shift to
get to this new version ofyourself which what do you call
that?
Because it could be higher self, true self.
I feel like there's a lot ofterms that are being said that
mean the same thing.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind for me is a
you that feels safe enough to bewho you are.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Okay, yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
That's a lot of words for like a go-to thing, but
that's to me feels like the bestrepresentation of it.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
No, I agree, because I think there's so many
different methods and not to getdown a rabbit hole, but there's
a lot of things that are beingsaid that I think I've just
found You're saying the samething in different fonts.
What I want to talk about isthat resistance.
When that resistance is comingup for people, when they're
actually starting to see thoseshifts happening and letting go
of those old versions, patterns,behaviors that used to make
(20:34):
them feel safe, how do they?
I'm going to open the floorbecause I am not a therapist,
but resistance is the topic thatI'm trying to word a question
around.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
When people are experiencing resistance, the
short answer is the moment ofchange is actually going to
happen when you responddifferently in real life.
And to go a little bit further,it's going to be when not when
you're fearless, not when you'reperfectly figured out, not when
you know for sure that if youtake a different action, that
(21:08):
everything's going to be dandyfull body level that being who
you are and the consequencesthat might come with being who
you are is more beneficial thanbeing the self-protective
version of yourself.
So what that might look like inreal life is if you're somebody
(21:32):
who doesn't cry in front ofother people, you don't feel
comfortable crying in front ofother people, because maybe
crying for you is like theultimate form of this person is
going to think that I'm notstrong and they're going to
leave me.
Crying equals weakness, equalsabandonment.
I can't handle that, my bodycannot handle that and a lot of
people will do this, like youmentioned earlier, like the
(21:55):
inner child work, they'll havethese emotional releases, some
emotional processing going on.
All that stuff is reallyimportant, but it's actually in
that moment, a lot of the time,when that person actually
decides, in a real situationwith a real human being that
you're really, you really have arelationship with.
You know what I really want tojust cry right now, and I know
(22:16):
that if I cry, this person mightactually leave.
I know that if I cry, thisperson might not respond well,
but the price that I'm payingfor being this person who holds
it all together is costing memore than this person leaving
would cost me Is me being honestabout who I am actually worth
the risk, and that's not an easyplace to get to, and it can
(22:40):
feel like the scariest thing andthe most freeing thing at the
same time, because most of thetime, our worst fear doesn't
come true.
Most of the time, it's not goingto be as bad as you think it's
going to be, because the part ofyou that's predicting the worst
case scenario is still fiveyears old, seven years old, 13
years old.
It's the part of you that'sstill predicting the worst case
(23:00):
scenario is still five years old, seven years old, 13 years old.
It's the part of you that'sstill predicting the worst case
scenario because of somethingthat happened in the past and
this moment isn't that moment,but we feel like it's going to
be, and then we spend yearstrying to make sure that moment
never happens again.
And so that type of scenariowhere you just cry anyway, or
apply it to any pattern that youhave in your life it's not just
the crying, it's the.
(23:21):
I don't need to be this personanymore to be safe.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
How can people in your life obviously you can't
put this on other people, butyou also.
We choose who we let into ourlife, right?
I mean maybe not family, butlike friendships, romantic
partners.
So how can like choosing therelationships that we get to
actually choose in our life,whatever they are?
(23:45):
How can we go about that in away that we are setting
ourselves up for truly beingourselves and feeling safe to do
so?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
So how do we choose people in our lives that we feel
safe around?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I guess because a lot of people just kind of they
just want people.
The idea of being alone or nothaving people is so terrifying,
whether it's friends or romanticrelationships or anything like
that.
We just need to feel likeeverybody's.
I got to have my tribe airquotes but a lot of times I've
just witnessed people's tribe islike that is not a healthy
(24:20):
tribe to be in.
No wonder who can feel safebeing around that.
So how do we help ourselves?
Instead of choosing things thatin the past would have?
I guess repeating the cycle Iguess that's what I'm trying to
get at is.
A lot of times we repeat thecycle, the narrative that we're
stuck in from the past, but wemake it happen over and over
(24:40):
again for ourselves.
So, in this shift, what arethings we can be doing to
actually allow ourselves tocreate an environment or
relationships that are conduciveto allow that to happen for us?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
We have to take responsibility fully for every
relationship we've ever had.
We have to take responsibilityfully for every relationship
we've ever had, and especiallythe ones we left feeling like a
victim and taking fullresponsibility for not every
relationship you chose right,like, for example, you didn't
choose what parents you're bornto, right relationships or
(25:20):
friendships.
It's not just oh, they did thisto me.
I have trauma from this personand now I'm spending the rest of
my year or my life recovering.
It's also why did I need thatperson?
What part of me actually neededthat person?
Even if they were toxic, evenif they hurt me, what part of me
was more safe, felt more safe,being the person in the
relationship who was the goodperson?
They hurt me.
(25:42):
I'm the victim, and it's notthat that person didn't actually
hurt you.
But is there a part of you thatfeels safer being in a dynamic
like that, because maybe you'reemotionally unavailable, or
maybe being in a relationshipwith someone who treats you well
is actually putting you in thisposition where you feel so seen
and not in a good way.
(26:03):
Yeah, maybe somebody does fullyshow up for you and that's
actually terrifying, taking fullresponsibility for the
relationships that we've been inand the role that we played and
why we might have needed acertain dynamic to play out in
these relationships, because ifwe don't see that, then those
things stay under the surface,in the dark, and we play them
(26:25):
out again because they're stillin the dark.
It's not until you bringsomething into the light that we
have the ability to change it.
And so you're asking, like youknow, what kind of work can we
do to bring people into ourlives that are actually going to
be supportive and we can have ahealthy relationship with?
And we need to do our own innerwork, and our best reference is
(26:46):
the relationships that wecurrently have in our lives and
the relationships we've had inthe past.
That is our mirror, that is ourability to kind of go in a
little deeper and know ourselvesa bit more.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
That's good, that's really good.
I also want to talk about thisweird energy that we're supposed
to achieve healing.
There is a level of healingwhere it stops everything solved
and fixed and so I want to getyour input on how these shifts
evolve over time, and are wealways going to be seeing these
(27:18):
shifts of ourself, and if so,how do we welcome that in a
positive way versus letting thatlike freak the fuck out of us?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
That there's always going to be a shift?
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah, because, like, we're not ever going to achieve
healing, Like as long as we'realive, shit's going to be
happening and we're going tohopefully be evolving.
Just the evolution through yourlife is kind of what I'm asking
about People who think they canachieve being healed, which I
don't know.
Maybe you're like no, Liz, youcan Try harder babes.
(27:48):
But yeah, that's my question.
I think.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
First, you have to ask yourself what do I think
being healed is going to get me,what do I think is going to
happen, or how am I going tofeel once I'm healed?
Because whatever the answer tothat is, is the thing that you
want access to.
And what would you say foryourself, since you feel like
you relate to this pattern?
Speaker 1 (28:12):
I feel like this is borderline an interview and a
therapy.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I think like I feel this either.
By the way, I feel this too.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yeah, yeah, well, I think that's a great call.
We'll go to that after, butI'll put a pin in it.
I think it's a really greatthing that, like, therapists and
coaches are still learning andevolving, and the information
they give us and the help theygive us is wonderful.
But I think we can put thosepeople on a pedestal.
My mentor, I can put her on apedestal so easily and she's
(28:40):
like nah, babe, I'm stillworking on my stuff, I'm not
Jesus.
So I mean for me, probably whyrelationships and stuff even
came up naturally in thisinterview is I think there's a
level of security that I want toachieve and I just don't.
I want to genuinely get to aplace where I do not care what
people think, because there'sbeen a pattern, whether it's
(29:02):
romantically or just I meanwe've talked about this in my
therapy session I just care sointensely about external
validation.
So I think I don't think sayingI'll never care what people
think, but I think if I couldgenuinely get to a spot where
I'm just okay, cool, great.
If I could genuinely get to aspot where I'm just okay, cool,
great, that would be a sign of Idon't think I'd feel healed,
(29:27):
but I feel shifts had happenedfor me, I guess in a really good
way.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, because there's a couple layers right.
There's the you caring a lotabout what people think, putting
a lot of weight on what otherpeople think, but then there's
also, on top of that, how youperceive yourself for being
somebody who cares other peoplethink.
But then there's also, on topof that, how you perceive
yourself for being somebody whocares what people think.
Does that make sense?
That got meta.
Say it again yeah, you justhaving this experience of
(29:50):
putting a lot of weight on whatother people think of you, which
is one thing, right.
But then there's this secondlayer on top of that, which is
Right.
But then there's this secondlayer on top of that, which is
Liz seeing Liz in a certainlight or having that pattern.
To begin with, let me ask youthis Ready Go?
Speaker 1 (30:08):
ahead.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I'm ready.
All right, if you kind ofstepped outside of yourself for
a second and you see the versionof you who cares a lot about
what people think.
What is your perception of herit?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
makes me sad, like, desperate, like.
My perception of her is justlike reeking of desperation and
in a way that's heartbreaking tome.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
So she's desperate.
Yes, yeah, and you're sayingit's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, is there any judgment.
Yeah, a little bit Like whycan't you just be good with you?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, the heartbreak is one thing, right, that's like
one layer of emotion.
And then the judgment of whycan't you be good with you is
another emotion or experience,right, that judgment itself, to
me, is more of where the work isthan in you actually caring
(31:04):
what other people think.
Okay, because at the end of theday, you're a human being and
we're social creatures.
Right, and caring what otherpeople think is something that,
unless you are clinically asociopath, yeah, you struggle
with to some degree, and somaybe you, you know, if we could
like find the stats and findthe average of how much people
(31:26):
care about other people, maybeyou would be above, maybe you
would be the same.
I don't really know.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
And that's fair right , like it's not, like this
doesn't exist and you just haveto accept it, move on and like
never think about it again.
You're experiencing that morethan you want to experience it,
right?
But instead of going straightto how do I stop caring what
people think I shouldn't care,what people think this is wrong,
this is too much.
Instead just noticing that youare judging yourself for caring
(31:52):
instead of actually meetingyourself there.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
That's creating a lot of resistance yeah, I haven't
even like thought about that.
That's wild.
Which obviously the way thisinterview is gone, like I
because of the questions andstuff like that, you know I go
more into like veryintellectualizing things.
So I know, just talking to you.
That that's me thinking.
What I should do is not carewhat people think of me, and
(32:17):
then that's where, like thebutting happens.
I get really frustrated withmyself for caring I.
Then that's where the buttinghappens.
I get really frustrated withmyself for caring and I think
that's a really good point.
Obviously, we used me as anexample, but my sister made the
point because over-therapizingeverything or over-awareness, a
lot of times I feel like we havejust normal human, innately
(32:39):
human reactions and because ofall the mental health awareness
and all the like stuff that wesee online and everything, we
therapize those reactionsinstead of being you're not
going to be walking around likesmelling the roses every day,
like, I guess, the what we'refed of, like true happiness or
(33:02):
whatever.
So I do want to turn it on itshead a little bit and ask you.
I do want to know like what?
Not your way past timelines,but the things that you've
really had to work and overcome,not only through being a
therapist but doing your owninternal work.
Because I know we put ourtherapists and our coaches or
(33:22):
whoever on a pedestalcelebrities, whatever, whoever
you put on a pedestal and it'slike they're still a fucking
human.
So I want to know for you whatyou've had to overcome or what
shifts you've had to work onwith yourself, just to humanize
you a little bit.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I actually don't have any problems, never have, okay
cool.
Thanks guys for listening.
My name is MindBodyNina.
See you guys.
Yeah, it's MindBodyNina andshe's kind of like Jesus, so
yeah, no, this is a greatquestion and I actually don't
think anybody in any podcast hasever asked me this, so this is
actually really cool.
The first thing I'll say is theonly reason why I feel like I
(34:05):
can articulate things andexplain them is because I've had
to work through all of thesethings myself.
I don't even talk about thingsthat I haven't worked through
myself.
It would feel like such aforeign, odd topic.
It would be like me trying toteach somebody how to change a
car tire which I don't know howto do at all.
So that's the first thing.
(34:28):
I think the first thing thatcame to mind when you were
asking me that is the challengeof always wanting to be on step
10 and having to accept that I'mon step one or two or three or
not step 10.
Because my experiencethroughout my life has been you
know how people talk about yourgreatest strength is your
(34:49):
greatest weakness too.
I feel in my life I had a lotof trauma growing up and it was
back to back to back to back toback, like I felt, like I never
got to come up for air and Ifelt myself I want to say in
like middle school and highschool.
It was even before that, but Ithink that was the peak for me.
Like middle school and highschool.
It was even before that, but Ithink that was the peak for me.
(35:10):
Like middle school and highschool, I could feel myself
really spiraling a lot and I letmyself spiral.
I went into a really reallydeep depression and I was
comfortable there.
I wanted to be there.
I didn't want to be out of it.
I made it my own identity toeven be there.
Want to be out of it.
I made it my own identity toeven be there.
(35:31):
Something eventually kind of hitme where I was like if I stay
here, I'm not going to be ableto live the life that I want and
I don't ever want to be.
This is in my high school mindright.
Like I don't want to be a 20year old, I don't want to be a
25 year old, I don't want to bea 30 yearyear-old, 35, 40,
50-year-old who has the sameproblems that I see my family
(35:51):
having or I see the peoplearound me having.
So if I stay here then I mightend up in that same situation
and I don't want to do that.
That realization gave me a lotof strength to keep going and to
change a lot of things and tomove.
It made me start doing a lot ofinner work, but I think it also
put me in a mindset where I ranso fast and I took so many
(36:13):
steps so quickly that I didn'tfully accept that the life that
I lived for so long was sopainful and disappointing and
hurtful and shitty.
Yeah, I was trying to escape itfor so long that I didn't fully
accept it and I still, to thisday, sometimes find myself
(36:34):
trying to get out of shittyscenarios that I don't fully
accept where I'm at.
So that's something that's beena really big challenge, but
I've seen it more clearly overthe years, which has made it,
you know, a bit I don't want tosay easier to work through, but
it's allowed me to work throughit.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I do want to ask, like when you started seeing
that shift, at whatever age youwere, and you're like I don't
want to stay here, and youstarted doing a lot of work,
were like what did that looklike for you?
Were you doing what we'reseeing people doing,
intellectualizing it, or wereyou just reaching at anything
that you thought?
Because you, it sounds like youwere a teenager or a kid when
(37:15):
you started doing this, so,which is awesome and really
scary at the same time so yeahwhat were you reaching for in
that time?
I, I guess.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Google was everything .
I think it realized that youcould Google anything and I
never really fully processedthat before.
So I think I was maybe 16.
I want to say I was like 16.
And I was in a relationshipthat was just like I was with
this guy who, like, cheated onme with 15 girls at this rave or
(37:49):
something Lovely, and I wasjust going through it and I
remember having this momentwhere I was like I don't know
what to do.
I don't know who to talk to.
I don't know who to go to forthis.
All my friends hated this guy,absolutely despised him.
So I didn't feel like I couldgo to my friends.
They would have just been likewe told you not to date him.
(38:12):
I'm like, oh shit, they wereright.
I wasn't going to tell myparents and I didn't know who
else to talk to.
So I was like you know what?
I think I can Google this and Idon't remember what came up, but
I remember I would find theselike blog posts and stuff that
were just talking about like 10signs you're in a toxic
relationship or whatever theywere.
And even though the internet isthe wild wild west and you
(38:33):
don't know what you're going toget out of it, I actually think
it was nice to have somewhere togo that had steps and proof
that other people were goingthrough the same thing.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, I do think I agree with you with that, like I
mean honestly anything you.
I do think I agree with youwith that, like I mean honestly
anything you're struggling with.
I feel like you can find sometype of podcast episode on it
and I had that realizationrecently that I was like you're
not the only one, it's okay,other people are dealing with
this.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, and I think that's important in the
beginning.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
But after so much time it's like, okay, well, what
are we doing?
I just think it's really cooltoo that you point out that
those things from back thenstill come up today.
You've done a lot of work andyou probably handle it a whole
lot better today.
I do want to ask you aboutpresent day, I mean honestly,
how you handle that stuff whenit does still come up, knowing
what you know now and whatyou've embodied now.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, I think.
Can I add something to what Iwas saying before?
First, yes, of course.
So I found Google.
I asked Google a lot ofquestions.
That felt like the only thing Ihad.
But I also ended up going to atherapist and I wanted to go to
therapy.
Not everybody wants to go totherapy, especially at that age.
Therapist and I wanted to go totherapy.
Not everybody wants to go totherapy, especially at that age,
but I really wanted to go and Ididn't really have the best
(39:55):
experience with my therapist,but it kind of introduced me to
therapy.
And then when I was in collegeI think it was sophomore or
junior year of college I had atherapist who I didn't want
because he was a guy and Ididn't want to work with a guy
therapist.
I just was like that'suncomfortable, I don't know how
I'm going to feel, whatever.
But I didn't get to choosebecause it was just the way that
(40:16):
it was set up at my school andI hear him call my name and I
was like, oh, of course, theonly guy here.
I got him, I don't want to be atherapist.
And he comes out and I go inand I'm just like kind of like
awkwardly sitting there.
Long story short, this mancompletely changed my life, and
one of the reasons why wasbecause he pushed me so much to
do things that made meuncomfortable, and I think that
(40:39):
that can trigger a lot of people, and I think that if I was the
wrong person in that room, itwould have gone the opposite
direction.
Yeah, but he really reallypushed me, and I think that's
something that's so underratedin society these days is like
being pushed a bit, not over,pushed to the point where you
spiral, but being pushed justenough that you have to work
(41:02):
through all the way throughstuff.
Yeah, instead of this, like,well, are you comfortable with
this?
Okay, that's fine, we won't gothere at all if you're not
comfortable.
And like doing this thing wherewe kind of beat around the bush
for a really long time becausewe're not comfortable with
things, right, yeah, I agreewith that, because I've had a
lot of therapists.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
I've had a lot of therapists.
No, but like just, I do feellike, after so many sessions,
I'm like what the hell are wedoing.
But like just, I do feel like,after so many sessions, I'm like
what the hell are we doing?
I feel it's just like Liz's onehour event session and then I
go home.
I want to see actual change andI do agree with you that I
think getting pushed and beinghey, no, this sucks, but do you
want to keep living the way thatyou're living?
(41:43):
No, okay, let's do somethingabout it.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah, and that's.
If that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
It's like what are we doing then?
Right, you're going to therapyfor a reason.
You're not.
Typically, we go to therapybecause we don't like the way
that we're showing up currentlyin life, or we recognize we're
doing the same shit over andover again.
So if I mean, I know somepeople go to therapy and they
don't want to go to therapy, butmost people who voluntarily go
to therapy and it's not an hourto talk with your best friend,
you know, or the person who'sforced to listen to you actually
(42:13):
want to go in there and getsomething out of it.
So, I agree with you, though,having a therapist that pushes
you, or even what you just said,however many minutes ago, about
owning the relationships, evenwhere you feel like a victim,
like people don't want to hearthat, but it's.
You were in that situation.
It takes two to tango.
You know, even if you were avictim, even if it was the worst
relationship ever, there wassomething there that kept you
(42:35):
there.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
And people push you in your relationships and your
friendships too, is important,and the reality is that you will
lose friendships, you'll loserelationships, you'll lose you
know.
You might have like a week whereyou hate your therapist, that
you know what I changed my mindabout her.
I don't like her anymore, likeshe sucks, like she doesn't get
me and like the reality is,whether it's your relationships,
(42:59):
your therapist, whatever it ischallenges being present and
having people who can workthrough them and being able to
develop the skills communicationskills, the emotional
regulation skills to be able towork through these things.
That, to me, is what actuallymakes people happier in life,
because then you're front andcenter with life, knowing that
(43:20):
you have the ability to face itand get through it, instead of
us being stuck in freeze all thetime because we weren't taught
the skills, we don't know how tohandle a lot of different
situations and everything's kindof a lot, everything's
overwhelming, and so the onlyoption we have is to kind of
like hide from life or run fromlife, and then that becomes
(43:41):
depression, that becomes anxietythat just never really goes
away.
And again, we don't have topathologize those things.
That just never really goesaway.
And again.
We don't have to pathologizethose things.
Anxiety is also a natural partof life, but it gets out of
control when we don't have theskills to face hard things.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
This is my last thing I wanted to hit, but you just
brought it up.
I really want to get your inputon it.
Nervous system regulation,emotional regulation I feel like
those are very hot topic wordsand some people, even myself,
sometimes I'm like how the helldo I regulate?
Everyone's like you'redysregulated or whatever, and so
I just think that'd be helpful.
What is this nervous systemregulation that we hear so much
(44:19):
about, or emotional regulation?
Yeah, that'll be my lastquestion for you, and then I'll
wrap it up so I can let you go.
I don't want to hold you up.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
Awesome, I have time, we're good.
But nervous system regulationto me means different things
when it comes out of differentpeople's mouths.
I don't think nervous systemregulation actually counts as a
formal term.
I think it's a term that'sbecome very popular and people
think they know what it means.
(44:47):
I think, as somebody who workswith our survival responses,
when I hear the term nervoussystem regulation, my
understanding of it is that wehave a flexible nervous system,
which just means that aregulated nervous system is a
nervous system that can go intofight or flight and then can
come back into safety andconnection.
It can go into freeze and thenit can go into fight or flight
(45:10):
and then it can come back.
It's flexible.
So it's not a nervous systemthat is so small in terms of
capacity that as soon as we getstressed, we're being shot out
of that window of tolerance.
We're being shot out of thatsafe and connected window and
then we're being thrown intofight or flight, and then
getting out of fight or flighttakes a really long time because
(45:33):
we don't know how to come back.
We don't feel safe enough, likeyou know.
Yada, yada, yada.
Yeah, a regulated nervoussystem is the ability to just go
in and out of different states.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
That's a really, really good point, and I think
nobody would think of nervoussystem regulation Because people
are like we should be avoidingfreeze fight or flight.
How do we stay out of those?
And if we're out of those,we're regulated, so I think
that's super helpful, whichfeeds back into that.
Let me achieve my most perfectself.
(46:03):
That's completely not realistic, but it's not that we're never
not going to experience thosethings.
It's just how quickly can wereturn to Okay?
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Yeah, how?
How can you return and how longdoes it take you to return?
Do you have the skills, youhave the tools to be able to
come back and do you haveliterally the like, the capacity
to be able to hold things?
Is your capacity narrow?
And if you have trauma, themore trauma you have, the more
narrow your window of toleranceis going to be.
(46:40):
But if you get up, maybe youeat your breakfast, you get
ready for work and then, I don'tknow, your dog runs out into
the street or something.
Is that going to throw yourwhole day off?
Is it going to throw your wholeweek off?
Or is it something that's likeoh my God, this is crazy, this
is so stressful.
You get your dog back in,you're stressed for the next
like 15 minutes, but then youkind of know how to come back
(47:00):
and, like your system just kindof naturally has the flexibility
to come back into balance.
Yeah, okay has the flexibilityto come back into balance.
Yeah, okay, you know, or is itsomething that your system has
to take a whole week to recoverfrom?
And that's not bad right?
It's just kind of showing whatwe can hold.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Yeah, no, and I think that's a good point to also say
it's not bad, because we thinkof these things a lot of times
in very black and white ways.
Yeah, so I think like that'snot necessarily bad.
That's just where you arecurrently.
Yeah, so I think like that'snot necessarily bad.
That's just where you arecurrently.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, and I see these videos of people saying you
know like you don't need nervoussystem regulation.
People overhype nervous systemregulation and I agree that if
we're talking about nervoussystem regulation as a checklist
of doing breath work andmeditation and like feeling
anything bad, yeah, and liketaking your shoes off and going
outside and grounding, like ifwe think of those things as
(47:54):
regulation, we're not fullyunderstanding because it's not
about what you're doing, it'sabout your nervous system's
flexibility and like capacity no, I'm glad we like finished with
that.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I think that's super helpful and beneficial to people
.
Yeah, I love this.
I hope you enjoyed it too.
I know I went over a little bit, but I want to let you plug
your stuff really quick, likewhere you're at, what you're
doing right now on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I'm at mindbodynina.
My website ishumansunpluggedcom, which is
where, like my coaching is, youcan find my community, my
podcast, everything throughthere, and I'm mostly on
Instagram.
Yeah, she is.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
That's how I found her Awesome.
Thank you so much, Nina.
Thank you, Liz.
This is so fun.
Yeah, I had a blast.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Me too.
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