KARA KUSHNIR - I AM ONE Birth Trauma and Postpartum OCD Survivor, Therapist and Change Maker - I AM ONE Podcast by Postpartum Support International

Episode Transcript
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Dani (00:00):
Welcome to the I Am One podcast.
On today's episode, we'resitting down with the incredible
Kara Kushnir.
Seriously, she is impressive.
Kara is a perinatal mentalhealth certified, licensed
clinical social worker whoseimpactful support of the
perinatal population is not onlyfelt through her extensive
involvement with PSI, but alsothrough the skilled support she

(00:24):
provides for families in herlocal community of Bergen
County, New Jersey.
We'll chat all about HG, OCD,PTSD, seeking help without a
diagnosis, dismantlingmisinformation, and having
empowering conversations withkids about mental health.
Just to name a few.
This entire episode was such ajoy to record.

(00:46):
So, without any further ado,please sit back, relax, and
enjoy this episode with ourfriend, Kara.
Kara, welcome to the podcast studio! Weare so thrilled to be sitting
down with you for an hour ofcalm, quiet conversation or
something, I don't know, itdoesn't have to be calm.

(01:06):
It could be rowdy.
I'm not sure.
Uh, we are here to talk aboutall the things perinatal mental
health related, talk about you,and um, yeah, what you're up to
today to support folks in theperinatal period.
So we're excited to jump in.
Shall we do that?

Kara (01:22):
Yeah, I'm stoked.
Let's do it.

Emily (01:23):
The water is warm.
Let's go!

Dani (01:25):
Sploosh.
Okay, Kara.
Can you give us a little bit ofa brief introduction to who you
are?

Kara (01:32):
Sure.
So my name is Kara Kushnir.
I am a licensed clinical socialworker and a PMHC based in New
Jersey, North Jersey to bespecific, like 45 minutes
outside of New York City.
I am a mom of one, and I am anidentical twin sister, um, as
well as a disability advocate.
I have a younger sibling who'sautistic, and I do a lot of work

(01:52):
both in the perinatal communityas a therapist, as well as
working with kids and parents,and I do a lot of advocacy work
as well.
And I'm just really excited totalk about this.
I, you know, got into thisbecause of lived experience, and
I think it's a nice opportunityto talk about that, like,
synchronicity of personal,professional, which happens to a
lot of us in this space.

Emily (02:12):
It really does, yeah.
Like the number of folks whovolunteer for PSI who are like,
I am a professional in somecapacity, and also I have lived
experience, very high.
There's a lot of crossover.

Dani (02:24):
Kara's a twin?
I didn't know that.
That's cool.

Kara (02:27):
Yeah.

Dani (02:27):
That's exciting.

Kara (02:28):
She's just as quirky and creative as me with her handle.
She's delve into therapy.
If you ever want to look intoher, her last name's
Delventhal.
Yeah.

Dani (02:35):
Oh, uh two therapists?

Kara (02:38):
Yeah, she's LCSW.
She's a PMHC too.
She's just a little bit moreinfertility focused.

Dani (02:44):
Wait a second.
Have you ever attended the PSIconference together?

Kara (02:47):
We have not, but our hope is to do so when it's back on
the East Coast.
So we'll see what happens.

Dani (02:53):
Okay.
That is so cool.

Emily (02:56):
This is amazing.
I'm like picturing all kinds oflike, I'm like, so...
one of you had found PSI andthen you were like, come on,
let's go! Like, I don't-

Dani (03:04):
Who did it first?
Let's keep track.

Kara (03:06):
I found PSI first.

Dani (03:08):
Okay, cool.

Kara (03:08):
I'm the OG.

Emily (03:09):
You're number one!

Dani (03:10):
Let the record show.
Also, the last hard-hittingquestion of this entire episode.
Just kidding.
Um, are you older or younger?

Kara (03:20):
I'm one minute younger.
I am, and I was the NICU baby.
But I was the only girl in theNICU, and they were like really
rooting for me as a result.
So I have, like, I have fighterenergy all through and through.
Yeah.

Dani (03:31):
Oh, I like that.
Very cool.
Oh my gosh.
Well, we've learned all kindsof things already.

Kara (03:36):
Yeah.

Emily (03:37):
Nice.

Dani (03:38):
It's great.

Emily (03:38):
Okay, let's talk about what role perinatal mental
health conditions played in yourlife personally, like you said,
and sort of led you into theprofessional.

Kara (03:48):
Yeah.
So I actually, in my careerI've worked in so many
different spaces, which I thinkis like the sort of commonality
in social work.
But I, in my work inhealthcare, transitioned to
working more in pediatrics andschools.
And in schools, of course,there are a lot of people in the
perinatal period, a lot ofpeople trying to conceive, and
also just parents in general.
And I happened to have a lot ofcolleagues who were going

(04:11):
through postpartum.
We had like 13 maternity leavesat one point in my school
district at one time, and a lotof friends going through the IVF
process, and just a lot ofloss, and a lot of navigating
return to work.
And I remember just my officebecame like this cone of silence
where people would come downand just tell me everything that
was happening to them.

And I remember thinking, A (04:28):
why was there no coursework about
this in my master's program?
Like this was never talkedabout.

And B (04:35):
kept thinking, well, like, why is nobody talking
about this now so outwardly?
So I got really curious aboutit.
I was already doing privatepractice part-time.
And I ended up during that timesort of considering how I
wanted to do things and expand.
And I'd intentionally broughtsomeone on my team who was a
perinatal provider because Ithought that was important.
So she was like the OG on myteam doing this work.

Dani (04:57):
Oh, cool.

Kara (04:58):
Fast forward, I get pregnant during the COVID-19
pandemic.

Dani (05:03):
Oh!

Emily (05:03):
Fun.

Kara (05:04):
So yeah, that was pretty crazy.
And I actually conceived my sonabout uh two months- or a month
and a half or so after mygrandfather passed away.
So there was like a lot ofpressure on me of like, oh,
like, we just lost someone andnow you're having a baby.
I had a horrific pregnancyjourney um with, like, some
borderline HG situation goingon.

Dani (05:23):
Oh no.

Kara (05:25):
That was rough.
And then um, unfortunately, mydistrict superintendent would
not give me any accommodationsdue to COVID, despite OB letters
and psychiatry letters saying,like, this is really not healthy
for her.
So I felt like the writing wason the wall.
And I at three months pregnantgave my notice and said I have
to turn my private practice intomy full-time gig and sink or
swim, figure it out.
So I did, fortunately, but itwas sort of like such an

(05:47):
eye-opener for me of what peoplego through.
I ended up, unfortunately,having a pretty traumatic birth
experience as well, and thensome medical complications.
My son had a short NICU stay.
And in my postpartum journey,um, I think I had perinatal
anxiety, but I continued on.
I ended up having postpartumOCD, PTSD, um, and anxiety.
So those were sort of thepieces of my puzzle that kind of

(06:09):
came together.
And then in my journey withthat, I decided later on, after
I was in a better place, Iwanted to go and get trained by
PSI.
I wanted to become a PMHC and Iwanted to make this a part of
the work.
I always thought it wasimportant just because I felt if
we supported families from thebeginning, it would improve the
outcomes for children too, so itkind of was a synchronicity in
the PEDs work.
But now it was very personal tome to want to help people go

(06:31):
through things that I had gonethrough.

Dani (06:33):
Wow.

Emily (06:34):
Yeah.
Okay.
So hold on.
My brain is synthesizing.

Dani (06:38):
I was thinking about maybe asking Kara if she wants to go
in a time machine and go back intime a little bit about...
during your pregnancy, you saidyou experienced HG.
I was, first of all, I waswondering if you could tell
people what that means.
What does that mean?

Kara (06:50):
So HG is hyperemesis gravidarum.
I was never formally diagnosedwith it, because the medical
system was so challenging toaccess because of the pandemic
that, like, I couldn't reallyget the care.
But it was kind of like, yeah,we think that's what's
happening.
I was prescribed diclegis, um,was told to take the combo of
like the Unisom, B6 that peopledo.
Made a little bit of adifference.

(07:10):
But I mean, I was vomitingevery single day, multiple times
a day, and/or barely eating toavoid vomiting for the vast
majority of my pregnancy.
So it was pretty rough.
Um, it did improve towards theend in the third trimester.
It really, as I was gettingcloser, I did start to feel a
little bit better, but I waspretty sick throughout the
entirety of my pregnancy.
And I didn't know what it wasand then it had a name actually

(07:33):
until in my postpartum.
I saw um, I think it's AmySchumer.
She did like a HBO documentaryabout having HG.
And I was like, oh, that's whatthat is, because I didn't know.

Dani (07:43):
Shout out to Amy Schumer.

Kara (07:45):
Mm-hmm.

Emily (07:45):
Fellow Towson University grad.

Dani (07:47):
Oh, for real?

Emily (07:48):
For real.

Dani (07:49):
Oh, okay.
Um so yeah, that must have beenreally difficult.
Did that kind of this is aleading question.
Did that mess with yourmental health at all?
I mean, just thinking like,were you wondering, is there
something I'm doing wrong?
Like, am I...

Kara (08:07):
I was, like, terrified, and I think I was terrified
because I was like, oh, I'msupposed to puke in a public
bathroom during a pandemic.
So, like, that like fueled thefire on the anxiety and then the
OCD stuff that developed later.
It was just- it made so muchsense to me when I look back.
And that was actually why Itried to go on having an
accommodation.
I mean, I was requesting towork from home doing report

(08:29):
writing one or two days a weekfrom school and was told no.
And it was like, well, this isa mitigation of her getting
sick, like you don't want heryou know, to get COVID.
So, and also just the- it was aweird time.
Like, I think with the HG, Iwas also like deciding, like,
you know, how do I handle this?
Where can I go?
What am I allowed to do?
Because because I was terrifiedof if I'm gonna get sick, I'm,
like, obviously gonna have totake off a mask and what's gonna

(08:50):
happen.
So there was just so much fearin the uncertainty and the
unknown of that time.
But yeah, it really also justtook a lot of the joy out of it
for me of like, I wanna enjoythis, and people who have the
experience of like, I love beingpregnant.
And I was like, what do youmean?

Dani (09:06):
This is pretty terrible, actually.

Kara (09:08):
Yes, could not access that.
Yeah.

Dani (09:10):
Oh, wow, that's rough.

Emily (09:12):
Okay, so there's suspected hyperemesis, there's
birth trauma, and there's maybesome pre-existing anxiety.

Kara (09:22):
Yes, definitely.

Emily (09:24):
How did the OCD show up for you?

Kara (09:28):
Yeah.
So interestingly, so actuallymy twin sister is the one that
was like, I think you have OCDwhen I was postpartum, because
she was coming over to help me,and I was ferociously logging
every ounce of milk that babywas eating.
I was checking the babymonitor.
I was an owlet mom and checkinghis pulse socks all the time.

Dani (09:45):
Oh, you're like, I'm a scientist.

Kara (09:47):
Yes, literally, like I have to make sure.
And then I would becomeirritable when people would try
to do it of like, you're notgonna do it right, you're gonna
mess it up.
Like there was a lot ofoverprotectiveness that came in
that vein when she would try tohelp.
And I had a lot of my own OCDaround my own health, um, which
in some senses I think wasprobably valid.
I had a lot going on medicallyin my postpartum journey, but

(10:08):
um, like constantly checking myincision for my C-section,
constantly checking temperature,breathing, my own pulse ox.
There was so much stuff goingon medically of checking my own
stuff, and it wasn't identified,unfortunately, until the third
therapist that I saw postpartum.

Dani (10:24):
Oh.
Which makes sense now.
Now, as someone who does thatwork, I mean, we know that it
takes an average of nine to tenyears for somebody to actually
get an OCD diagnosis, becauseit's so grossly misdiagnosed.
Wow.
Okay, Kara, you mentioned ittaking three therapists to
finally getting- Okay, after youhad your child, had you already

(10:47):
been seeing a therapist beforethat, and you were like, okay,
well, obviously I'm just gonnakeep seeing my same therapist,
and then...
how did the trying differenttherapists unfold?

Kara (10:56):
Totally.
So I had seen somebody duringmy pregnancy.
It was great because I wasreally seeing her, specifically
more so for a grief perspective,just because of my grandfather
having passed.
I was like really doing thatwork and she had no perinatal
training, and she actually said,I think you should see somebody
who does perinatal work just tobe, you know, having that
support.
So she recommended it.
And I went to somebody who,said that they did perinatal

(11:17):
work, but at the time notknowing the differentiation of
training, I think that it wasmore like, I have lived
experience, so I'm gonna say Ido perinatal work, which is a
big problem, in my clinicalopinion.
So my first experience withtherapy was somebody who was
doing a ton of self-disclosureand almost hijacking the session
to be about her.

Dani (11:35):
Oh.

Kara (11:35):
And I identified it very quickly and said, I don't think
this is a good fit.
So I ended up uh requestinganother therapist who was really
lovely, but just didn't havethe OCD training to really see
that.
And that's around the time whenmy sister was like, you're not
getting something that you need.
Like, we need to find somebodyelse.
So, I ended up going tosomebody that had a little bit
more specialization in this andhad both of those pieces.

(11:57):
And that was really helpful tome.
And I really was able to also,having done some OCD work prior,
finally admit that that waswhat was happening.
I did not want to admit it.
And then I did, and I realizedwhat I could do.
And I kind of in conjunctionwith my therapist, did some
exposure therapy for myself,like some ERP.
And I also did some cognitivebehavioral therapy to work on

(12:19):
that, and that really helped me.
And then I had to find anothertherapist for the trauma part,
because that was not theirwheelhouse.
So I was kind of, like anexample of a lot of people
probably would have stopped andthey wouldn't have gotten the
help, which is part of thechallenge.
I needed something reallyspecialized, and it's why I went
on to do everything that I do.
I now treat everything that Ihad, because of the hardship I

(12:40):
had in finding somebody that didthese things.

Dani (12:43):
How did your sister know to say, I don't think you're
getting what you need, and kindof nudge you to go look for
somebody who specialized in OCD?
Was she seeing things likebehaviors repeated?
And she's like, Okay, this isnot like pre-baby Kara, not that
we're the same person, weevolve into new Kara, you know,

(13:03):
or whatever.
But was she noticing things?

Kara (13:06):
Yeah, for sure.
So it was so interesting, and Ithink this is something that I
find fascinating now as aclinician and also just as a
survivor, is she was even like,is this PTSD or is this OCD?
Because there was suchhypervigilance, there was such-
the checking, but also like Icouldn't sleep.
And I also had medicalcomplications that were making
it hard for me to sleep in thevery beginning, I had really

(13:27):
significant postpartum anemia.
So, like, it can actuallyaffect the way you breathe.
And so I would literally feellike I couldn't breathe and I
would go to sleep and I wouldstartle wake, because my body
thought I wasn't getting enoughoxygen.
So I was, like, literally notsleeping.
And so she ended up going tothe hospital with me four days
postpartum to get checked out,because I was like, I have a
pulmonary embolism.
This is something- I was likeconvinced I was gonna die.

Dani (13:49):
Yeah.
I've Googled it.
Don't worry.
I'm not sleeping, and I Googledit.
I figured it out.

Kara (13:53):
Exactly, exactly 100%.
So I was like, let me gofigure this out with them.
Um, but it took my sister wentto the hospital with me, and she
literally had to put a hand onme while I was in the ER and
hooked up to the monitors, andshe said, I'm watching you
sleep, I promise you're notgonna die.
I can see it on the monitor, Ican see you, I won't let
anything happen to you.
And then I let myself sleep.

(14:14):
But I literally had to havesomeone with me, and she was
like, this is not normal.
She's like, and it's not justmedical and it's not just like,
it's in your head.
She's like, you went throughsomething horrific.

Emily (14:24):
Yeah.

Kara (14:24):
And she, I think her hardship was watching that, and
then seeing the constantchecking, and the Googling, and
the researching, and thereassurance seeking, a lot of
that going on of like, do youthink I'm gonna be okay?
What do you think this is?
But also just the activation.
When I went into the emergencyroom to be checked out, I
immediately smelled that, like,Lysol smell and I had a panic
attack.
And it was like full on andshe was like, yeah, you went

(14:48):
through it and you need help.
And she realized I wasn'tgetting what I needed.
So she, in that point, becauseI kept not sleeping, I kept
doing the checking, and she'slike, you're not getting better.
Something has to change.
And she, I think I had thefortune of like, I have a twin
sister who is a therapist.
So even if she wasn't aperinatal provider at that time,
she had the wherewithal tonotice it and she was
comfortable telling me.
But it changed my life.

(15:08):
Like, if she hadn't said it,nobody else would have noticed
it.
Everybody else was kind oflike, you'll be okay, it's just
hard.
And she was like, no, this isnot normal.
You don't deserve this.
You already went through it inpregnancy.
It ends here.
And like that was radical.

Dani (15:22):
This is absolutely getting in the way, and it doesn't have
to be this hard.

Kara (15:27):
Yep.

Emily (15:28):
I love that.

Dani (15:29):
Oh, I keep tearing up!

Emily (15:31):
The idea that, like, you've already gone through a
thing, like it doesn't have tokeep being this hard,
especially in the context ofanxiety and PTSD and OCD,
because those are things thatmake us very uncomfortable, but
are not by themselveslife-threatening.

Kara (15:50):
Right.

Emily (15:50):
Right.
They make us hyper-vigilant, ormake us very hard workers, or
make us operate in a certain waythat could be just seen as
quirky, or might even bepraised, depending on what it is
and how it's manifesting.
Like, being a hyper-vigilantparent looks good on paper until

(16:13):
you look at how the parent issuffering.

Kara (16:16):
Yes.

Emily (16:17):
How much is it getting in the way?
Well, a lot because I'm notoperating the same way.
I've changed everything abouthow I do my things throughout
the day.

Kara (16:26):
Yep.

Dani (16:27):
Okay.
So you finally got connectedto, well, you were connected to
a couple different therapiststhat helped you for- you know,
in different ways.

Kara (16:35):
Yeah.

Dani (16:36):
How long did it take before you were, I don't know,
feeling a little bit like thingsweren't in the way so much, you
know?

Kara (16:44):
I actually have a photo of myself holding my son when he's
about eight or nine months old.
And I recall, I actuallyremember taking the picture and
looking at it.
And I said to my mom, I waslike, I want to keep this
because, like, this is where I'mstarting to feel like I know
I'm not myself, but I feelbetter.
It took time.
Um, and I think that to thatpoint, I'm really grateful.

(17:04):
And I think it's so importantfor people listening to hear:
it's okay to go to differentproviders, it's okay to find the
right person, and it's okay touse different providers for
different reasons.
Like, I worked with somebodyvery specifically on OCD, and
then I needed to go to somebodyvery specifically who did EMDR
with me.
And like, and that's okay.
Like, you have to find what youneed for that specific
experience you have.

(17:24):
But it did take time.
And it's something that I alsothink is important.
Like, I have had clients thatcome to me and they're like nine
months postpartum and they'rejust starting to realize it, and
they're like, oh, I have to begood by a year, right?
Because that's postpartum.
And I'm like, no, no, no.
Like, you're postpartum forlife, and also this experience
that you have has never beenaddressed.
So it's still postpartum, it'sjust a complication that nobody

(17:47):
picked up on or gave you thesupport you deserved.
You're gonna be okay.
Like, but it I think that it's-there's such a like, uh, going
back to the OCD can be so sodetrimental of like, I look so
good on paper.
I'm such a good parent.
It really fuels thatperfectionist, like pieces of
people that I certainly have.
Yep!
It can really like be something you're like, I can't

(18:08):
abandon that.
It also affected me in mybreastfeeding journey.
I was like, I have to.
Like I was like- and I waspumping, which was so hard
because then I could measureeverything.
So there was such a...
it added to that too.

Dani (18:19):
Solely pumping and then giving a bottle or...?

Kara (18:22):
I had started to try to do a combination of breastfeeding,
bottle feeding, and formulafeeding, and mostly because my
son was in the NICU, so it wasreally tricky.

Dani (18:30):
Yeah.

Kara (18:31):
I remember just having such a hard time with it, and I
was kind of like, I think I'mjust gonna pump.
But it was a hundred percent, Idecided to pump because I could
track.
That's exactly what happened.
And I retrospectively can seethat now.
It made me feel better.
I will know exactly how muchhe's eating, and I have to make
sure because he was in the NICU.
So there was a lot of thatpressure.
But then, when I realized howbeing hooked up to the pump was

(18:52):
so impactful to my mental healthin my journey, because of the
way I was producing, and justthe challenges I was having, and
the fear I had of lettingpeople in my house to even help
me, like a lactation consultant,because it was still COVID
times.

Emily (19:04):
Right.

Kara (19:04):
I basically was like, I don't know what to do.
And it was my husband actuallysaying to me, like, I really
need you to give yourselfpermission to not say that,
like, you failed or like thatyou have to stop, but, like, you
did give him breast milk andit's fine, and you're more
important than how he's beingfed.
Like, this doesn't matter.
And I was like, You're right.
But it was a huge loss, and itwasn't just a loss of the
experience of like this is whatI'm supposed to do, it was like

(19:26):
a loss of control.
Like I had to accept that I wasgonna know how much he was
eating if it was formula and itwas fine, but like, but also it
it was something that I had torecognize of oh, this was
another example of OCD had takenover and I had to finally let
it stop having the wheel onsomething.

Emily (19:42):
Yeah.

Kara (19:42):
It was something I had to come to terms with.
It made me feel like a failure.
And I think that perfectionistpart got really activated by
that.

Emily (19:49):
Yes.
So perfectionism, you're sayingit's a problem.

Kara (19:53):
Yeah, no, for sure.
And it's so hard when peoplego into it with this, I think,
mindset, that perfectionistmindset of, like, going into
like planning.
It's gonna be this way, all theway down to like, I'm gonna
have this chair in the nursery,to like I'm going to breastfeed
this way.
And really what I always talkabout with parents is it's
expectations.

(20:14):
That's the thief of joy.
The expectations steal our joy.

Emily (20:17):
Yes.
Yeah, because you know, we inan effort to be, let's say,
perfect, we want to be reallyinformed about labor and
delivery.
And so then we learn all thethings and go, okay, based on my
value system, which is like animportant self-awareness to
have.
Like, based on what I want, I'mgonna say, I want this and I'm

(20:38):
not okay with that, and I don'twant this intervention, but I do
want that intervention, orwhatever.
And nature and the universe andthat baby have their own set of
plans.

Dani (20:50):
Like, excuse me, uh, I have something to say about
that.
And then your whole birth planthat's you know, three to five
pages long is out the window.

Kara (20:59):
Yep.

Dani (21:00):
And all of these things that you've spent time thinking
about, how do I want this to be?
It's like, man.

Emily (21:06):
And what does it mean about me?

Kara (21:08):
Yeah.

Dani (21:09):
I'm thinking about parenting.
You think it's gonna go acertain way.
You think your birth's gonna goa certain way, you think
you're gonna parent a certainway, you think your life's gonna
go a certain way.
It's like this lesson that, ashumans, we probably are reminded
of over and over again, whetherwe choose to be able to hear it
and receive it or not.
I didn't want to hear it when Iwas becoming a parent.
I was like, nope, I'm gonnapick how everything's gonna go.
Mm-mm.

Kara (21:29):
Yeah.

Emily (21:29):
Yeah.

Dani (21:30):
A little humbled.
You know, like we're- we- wejust have to roll with it, you
know?

Emily (21:36):
Yeah.

Kara (21:36):
Mm-hmm.
I love that what you just saidtoo about the birth plan, I feel
like that is such a big pieceof it.
And like, I mean, I had to letgo of expectations at 37,
almost 38 weeks, when they werelike, I really think that you
should potentially end up havinga C-section.
And I was kind of like, why?
And I didn't want to.
I'm very glad I did in the end.
My son was very large, and Ithink that it would have ended

(21:58):
up probably that way anyway.
And that's sort of what mydoctor said, she said, based on
your level of anxiety, I wouldnot want you to have to go
through that and then end upthis way.
And that might happen based ondifferent pieces of my anatomy.
And I have some some spinalissues, and I was like, yeah, I
get it.
So it was kind of like a saferthing.
And even though it was atraumatic experience, I through,
I think definitely throughdoing the work of EMDR for me,

(22:20):
I have a very differentexperience.
Something I often will sharewhen I talk about my birth is
that I went from feeling like mybody failed me, and like I
didn't get the vaginal deliverythat I wanted, and like there
were so many pieces that I, youknow, what if I had done this?
Or...
now the first thing that comesto mind when I think of my birth
is I remember the doctorholding my son up over the
drapes, and I was like reallygoing through it.

(22:41):
It was so hard for me.
But I made sure that I was thefirst person to say happy
birthday to him.
And that was what I said tohim, the first thing I said,
happy birthday, baby boy.
And I made sure I said it.
And I think about that now, andI'm like, you know, I'm like,
your story isn't somebody wholike, you know, you didn't do it
and you failed.
Your story is, like, youliterally willingly laid down on
a table and got cut open sothat you could birth that baby
and still got that out in all ofyour pain.

(23:03):
Like, you're a warrior.
And like that's what I wantother people to feel too.

Dani (23:07):
Oh my gosh.

Emily (23:08):
You basically just answered the question I was just
gonna ask, more or less, whichis...
Well, okay, it's a two-partquestion.
We're gonna get real personal.
Are you done having kids?
And the reason I'm asking thatis because how do you think
about that birth experiencetoday?
And how has it sort of beenreframed through all of the like

(23:28):
therapy work that you havedone?

Kara (23:30):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, so my question is I don'tknow.
Um, it's like TBD right now.

Dani (23:36):
Yeah.

Kara (23:36):
I think we talk about it all the time.
We're like, do we want to?
Do we not want to?
I always thought I'd have two,and there is a part of me that
thinks I might just be a one andwon W-O-N parent.
And like I say that to peoplesometimes.
But I think that I just don'tknow and it has nothing to do
actually with that, and that'swhat's so cool.
My decision around familyplanning is much more about my

(23:57):
son's needs.
I have a neuro spicy kid, solike what's he gonna need?

Dani (24:01):
Same.

Kara (24:02):
Yeah, so like what's that gonna mean?
And then like also my own likebandwidth of, like, I have a lot
going on professionally, andlike I'm kind of, like, okay
with where my life is.
So, and you know, what do wewant to do?
But it's cool because I, when Ifirst had my son, I remember
telling my husband, I'm neverdoing this again.
Like, I never want to haveanother baby.
And I can 100% say now, becauseof the work I was able to do,

(24:25):
that that is not a factor indeciding.
Like, yeah, like, it's gonna behard.
And I'm kind of like, do Iwanna, like, go through
pregnancy again?
That might be really tough.
If I end up being really sickagain, and it's scary from a
medical stance of like there isunknown, but the actual birth
experience and what I've done towork on it does not scare me.
I will say part of the workthat I did in addition to

(24:46):
psychotherapy, EMDR, was peersupport.
I talked to other parents whowent through this, and I also
followed really helpful socialmedia accounts.
I think that, like, socialmedia gets a bad rap because
there are some things out therethat are not helpful and
comparison can be a thief ofjoy.
But like, like I follow thebirth trauma mama, and, like,
that was super helpful.
And, like, I ended up doing myEMDR training with Kaylee,

(25:06):
actually.
Like she was in my cohort,which is like the coolest
synchronicity ever.

Emily (25:10):
That's cool.

Kara (25:10):
So that was super fun.
But those, like, people that Ihave met along the way have
really helped.
And then I think also part ofthe work that I did around
healing was really kind of likegoing back to the story, like
doing changing the story, likeworking on what is my story in
this.
But it's not like BS.
Like it's not like I'm like,yeah, like you're a warrior
because you did that.
I'm like, no, like I'm like,that's hard.

(25:31):
Like, and it's something that Ithink also providing that care
has been transformative.
It's like been meaning-makingfor me and the grief of the
journey that I expected.
Like, it is so satisfying tohave someone who comes in front
of me.
And I'm not- I'm a bigbeliever, as I said earlier, in
finding people who are trulytrained.
Like, I wanted to be trainedbecause my philosophy is like,
yeah, like my experience is myexperience.

(25:52):
Like, that can inform me, itshould not lead me in the care.

Emily (25:55):
Yeah.

Kara (25:56):
I think it helps me empathize and attune in a
different way.
But I really enjoy being ableto now, you know, companion
people on their healing journey.
And I have a couple of clientsnow that I started working with
who were like, I'll never haveanother baby, and they're
pregnant right now and they'renot scared.
And I'm like, that is like...
whether I have more children ornot, like, that was the goal.
Like, it can happen and we canget you there.

(26:16):
And like that is massive to me.
That is so cool.

Dani (26:19):
That was a big question, Emily.
I know a lot of people, it'slike, uh, I had a lot of
questions about that too.
You know, there's this socialexpectation.
We have our own expectations ofhow we think our life is gonna
go.

Emily (26:31):
Or sometimes you expect to be able to have that second
kid, and then something happensthat makes it not possible.

Dani (26:38):
Or you realize things about yourself that you didn't
know five years ago and youknow, are hopefully able to go,
all right, maybe that might notwork for us.
And like that's super okay.
And I hope that that is morelike accepted now.
I'm hearing more people talkabout that.
Like, we've got a bunch offriends, some of our previous
podcast guests too have talkedabout that.

(26:59):
That just going with like whatfeels right and what works well
for you, whether that's what youpredicted as a meteorologist or
not.
Anyway, here I am with weirdanalogies, but

Kara (27:11):
I love that.
You're you're right though.
Like it's- you don't have tohave another child to heal from
birth trauma.
Like it does not have to be thecase whatsoever.
I completely agree with you.
Like, there's no you can't planthis stuff, and...
Yeah.
The surrender is the healing.

Dani (27:25):
Ooh.
Dang, Kara.
I'm gonna write that down.
I just got goosebumps.
I keep tearing up, gettinggoosebumps, and then I'm like,
dang, that's a quote.

Kara (27:34):
Thank you.
I got little nuggets I sprinkleit when I can, you know.

Dani (27:38):
Yeah, I like that.

Emily (27:39):
It's like planting seeds that can grow for all of us
later, yeah.
Because, you know, like it'sthat predicting, like you want
to predict.
Well, 20-year-old Kara whothought, I'm gonna have two
kids, is not today, Kara.

Kara (27:56):
Yeah.
Who has the professionalexperience, and the personal
experience, and, you know, thetherapy work that you've done to
be more in tune.

Dani (28:06):
I mean, 20-year-old Kara arguably was probably sleeping
much more.

Kara (28:10):
Oh, yes.
20-year-old Kara was a vastlydifferent human.

Dani (28:14):
She was super rested and thought she could do- that she
might be really interested in,you know, not sleeping a lot.

Emily (28:21):
Came home from class and took a nap, like

Kara (28:23):
Yeah.
Rude.
100%.

Emily (28:26):
Same.
Uh...
So we have talked about youbeing connected to PSI.
When did you get- when did youdo your perinatal mental health
certification?

Kara (28:38):
I think I did my training towards the end of 2021.

Dani (28:42):
Cool.

Kara (28:43):
Or, possibly the beginning of 2022.
Um, So I've been doing thiswork for a few years with the
training specifically,otherwise, my work with parents
predated it.

Dani (28:52):
Cool.
So, speaking of PSI, can youtalk to us a little bit about,
um, how you've been connected toPSI?
Like...

Emily (28:58):
What would you say you do here?

Dani (28:59):
Yeah, was perinatal mental health certification your,
like, toe in the water?
Tell us more.
Go on.

Kara (29:06):
Nope, no.
So the clinician that I hiredbefore I had my son, who was-
she was a PMHC, and I was like,what does that mean, when I like
interviewed her.
And then she told me about it,and I was like, oh, and that's
how I learned about PSI, andthen I started researching it,
and then I started sharing aboutit to all of those friends and
colleagues I had who were in it.
I was like, you guys shouldknow about this.
Look at these free supportgroups, look at this

(29:28):
information.
Hey, like, friend who's apsychiatrist, you should, like,
learn about this if you havepeople of reproductive age.
And I just kind of startedsharing it.
And then I like drank theKool-Aid and was like, I have to
go get trained and I want to dothis.
Um-
It's not poisonous!
It is the best.
It is, and I really, reallyloved the training.
And it was really coolactually, because I felt like

(29:50):
doing the training, and thenwhen I took the test, and I,
like, I know a lot of peoplewill post on social media in the
PMHC world like the picture ofthemselves holding, like, that
they passed their PMHC thelittle tests.
I did that and like that wassuch a big moment for me of,
like, look at how far you'vecome, and it was so cool.
So that was a big deal for mein that journey.
And then from there, um, I gotinvolved in being a Climb

(30:11):
leader.
So this was my third year ofleading team Bergen for The
Climb.

Dani (30:17):
Ooh.

Kara (30:18):
Erin, who is the therapist that's on my team, that is the
first PMHC that was on our team,is my co-Climb leader.
So she works with me.

Emily (30:25):
Yes!

Kara (30:25):
And then from there, I, during that time, probably early
on when I started doing Climbwork, I had a friend and
colleague from another part ofJersey that I connected with on
social media who was a PMHC, andshe was on the board for PSI
New Jersey.
So she's like, I really thinkyou should look into this, like,
think you'd be really good tobe on the board one day.
So I explored it and I startedout as education and training
chair uh for New Jersey, andthen I switched into being the

(30:49):
chair for PSI New Jersey.
So, I'm currently finishing upmy term as chair for New Jersey
right now.

Dani (30:54):
Excellent.
Nice work, Kara! Oh my gosh.
Connecting all the people withall the...
all the resources and doing allthe things.
Oh yeah.
For anybody listening, did yourevent in Bergen, your Climb
event, already happen this yearor is it happening in the fall?

Kara (31:12):
It already happened we were on June 21st, I want to
say.
And it was great.
So, super exciting, it was ourthird year, still best year.
We, like, aim every single yearto, like, beat the year before.
It's kind of like a funexercise for us.

Dani (31:24):
Let me just say that you totally- you guys totally rocked
it.
So if anybody is interested in,like, what is this Climb event
thing that Kara's talking about?
We'll put a link in the shownotes to your team's social
media account so people can gocheck it out and see.
Maybe they might want to getinvolved, if you're leading an
event next year, or if theymight want to attend or

(31:44):
something, they could see whatit's like.

Kara (31:46):
Yeah, we fully plan to keep doing it as long as we can.
So, I love it.

Emily (31:50):
Yay!

Dani (31:51):
Awesome.

Emily (31:51):
It's so powerful to, like, gather people together who
have varied experiences andvaried skill sets, but like, all
care about the same cause.

Kara (32:03):
Yep.

Emily (32:03):
You know, like...
It's so powerful.
The librarian, and the preschool teacher, and the
therapist and the pelvic floorphysical therap- like, all
together, just being like, okay,and what else can we do?

Dani (32:16):
And your neighbor who just had a baby.
Right.
And you.

Kara (32:20):
Yep.
How are you really?
Nice baby...
How are you?
You know, like...
Yep.
No, it's so fun.
Like, I love doing the Climb.
I think that it's somethingthat is an easy way for people
to get introduced to PSI andtheir community, to just like go
and to connect to thoseresources.
And that's really what I loveabout it, is every year someone
comes up to me and they're like,this was so helpful.

(32:42):
I just talked to this person.
I didn't know I could see apelvic floor physical therapist.
I had no idea this resource wasout there, and, like, that's
the whole point.

Dani (32:49):
I didn't even know a pelvic floor physical therapist
was a thing until eight yearspostpartum.
So that would have been, like,very helpful.
So, nice job connecting all thedots in your community at your
Climb event.

Emily (33:03):
Yeah.

Dani (33:03):
That's awesome.

Kara (33:04):
Thanks.

Emily (33:05):
Yeah.

Dani (33:05):
Yeah.
Emily, do you have any otherburning questions...
Slash Kara, is there anythingthat we should chat about that
we haven't talked about?
Or...
Well, I love sharing my storyin the sense of people
understanding, and I think thisis something that I've heard
other guests on your podcasttalk about and acknowledge in
different ways too.
Like, it's not just postpartumdepression, and also it doesn't

(33:28):
have to just be one diagnosis.
I think people feel like theyhave to fit there.
It's really funny, I just, I doa lot of continuing ed and I
just created a training thatI've been giving, and this is
like where my advocacy comes in.
I, like, love getting my footin the door in the hospital
system.
So I, like, have createdtrainings and linked in with
other orgs.
So they'll pull me in to do thetraining, and I'm like, I will
come for free.
You do not have to pay me, justlet me talk to you, because I

(33:48):
just want to be able to get in.
Yes.

Kara (33:51):
And I created a training on how to actually use the
Edinburgh postnatal depressionscale in the hospital and what
to actually look for, becauseit's half the time done
incorrectly, which is part ofthe struggle.

Dani (34:00):
Interesting.

Kara (34:00):
Yeah, it is.
And what I've learned and I'veshared with a lot of providers
is that, and this is alsostarting to emerge, is that a
lot of the times perinatalanxiety, whether it's in
pregnancy and postpartum, isprobably more common than
postpartum depression.
We don't really think aboutthat a lot.
And I think the stats willtypically show that, in the
research coming forward, as itcontinues to be published, but
it's missed so much more oftenthan it should be.

(34:23):
And I think that is because,like we talked about
expectations.
People are like, you're a newmom, you're a new dad, of course
you're anxious.
And we're like, uh, but that'snot this.
And I think that's what'sreally tricky.
And also just people are soafraid to be honest because they
don't know what's going tohappen.
So the way in which we assessand talk to people matters.
But I really encourage peopleto, A: if they are a provider,

(34:43):
to be thoughtful about thatassessment process and to make
it safe.
Like, tell them why you'reasking and what will happen and,
like, be honest because I'vehad people say to me, I'm really
afraid to answer thesequestions.
And I said, here's what's gonnahappen.
If you, let's say you tell meyou want to hurt yourself, we're
gonna talk about what you'rethinking about and how I can get
you support, because I want youto be okay.
My goal is not to tear youapart from your child and have

(35:04):
you never see them again.
And I want to be veryintentional about telling you
that, and just kind of helpingthem hear that is really
critical.
I don't make false promisesbecause I don't know what's
gonna happen, but I can promiseyou that I'm always gonna tell
you the truth and what I can dofor you.
So just to have that safety andrelationship.
And it doesn't take a longtime.
I think that sometimes there'sthis urgency to rush from a
provider perspective of like,oh, I have to get through the

(35:26):
assessment, but it takes anextra five seconds to explain it
or to get it right.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
And then for the patient sideof it, just to know like people
really do want to help you.
They're not out to get you, andit can be scary.
I also want to acknowledge thatthough, from a place of
privilege, there's so much workto be done.
And I, through the work Iactually got to do with PSI New
Jersey, I did some focus groupsthis year.

(35:46):
We had, like, a huge grantproject we worked on.
We did a lot of work in theBIPOC community, acknowledging
that there is a valid fear ofhow to be honest if you're a
woman of color.
And so, how do we alsodismantle that work?
And that's something I'm superpassionate about, whether it's
trauma and how that can bemisrepresented or recognized
because of the biases andstereotypes we have, how we miss
anxiety because you're just ascared new mom.

(36:08):
Just kind of being able to be alittle bit more intentional and
thoughtful about how we'relooking at this, and empowering
people to be honest so that theycan get the help they deserve.
Because I think it's about 75%of people with a perignatal
mental health condition don'tget diagnosed.
They don't get treatment.

Dani (36:24):
Oh, well, you're looking at two.
You're talking to two.

Kara (36:27):
Yeah.
So it's really problematic.

Dani (36:30):
Right.

Emily (36:30):
Yeah.

Dani (36:31):
Like when you're talking about people being afraid to be
open and honest with you, Ithink that this is just such a
common story.
And I love that you are sointentional about what you're
saying to patients, not justreading through the questions,
but just something as little asstarting out the sentence with:

(36:52):
it's actually really common fora lot of parents at this stage
to be feeling XYZ.
How's sleep been going for you?
Or, you know, how are you, youknow, whatever.
Leading with just confirmationthat people are not alone, it
just opens up the door, I think,for open conversation and
dialogue between a provider anda and a parent.

(37:14):
And I love that you are doingthat and acknowledging you can't
just ask the questions on thescale and move on real quick.
It's just- it's not supportingparents in the way that they
needed and deserve.
So I'm just here to pat you onyour back! Thank you.
Thank you for doing that.
From somebody who wasundiagnosed and like very afraid
to say the scary things thatwere going on inside, right?

Emily (37:36):
I'm having a thought.

Dani (37:37):
Oh!
It's brand new.
Uh-oh.
It's brand new in my head.
This could be dangerous.
I have no idea where we'regoing here.
Oh no, I'm buckling up.

Emily (37:45):
So as a clinician, your definition of an experience with
diagnosis is probably differentthan the assumptions that a lay
person like me will make aboutwhat it means to have a
diagnosis.
Like they don't give you a cardthat you carry around in your

(38:06):
wallet, right?

Kara (38:07):
You might not even know you have one.
Yeah.

Emily (38:10):
And you also don't necessarily, like, keep that
diagnosis forever because, Imean, you could be diagnosed as
having something that resolves,which a lot of the things that
we talk about on this podcastare things that resolve, right?
I wonder what we can do?
What can we do about it?
Let's solve the world'sproblems, Kara.

(38:30):
What can we do?

Kara (38:31):
Well, okay, so the first thing I would say is you don't
need a diagnosis to get help.
So, like it doesn't matter.

Dani (38:36):
Yes.

Emily (38:37):
Right.

Kara (38:37):
Really important.
And so if you're not sure andyou're like, I don't think I
have that, or no one directlysays to you that's what you
have, that doesn't negate yourability or allowance to seek
treatment.
Like, and when I say treatment,I'm talking psychotherapy, some
sort of counseling, peersupport, going to a group, being
able to talk to support peopleand access resources because
it's not just about therapy.

(38:58):
It could be anything from youhave a postpartum doula, you go
to your, you know, your church,or your temple, or your wherever
you go for spiritual practice,and there's people who support
you there.
Like, anything that feelssupportive can be a part of your
recovery journey.

Emily (39:12):
Yeah.

Kara (39:13):
But honestly, anxiety, depression, no matter what it's
called, if you do not feel likeyourself beyond I just had a
baby and I'm learning to dothis, but I feel I don't feel
safe in my body.
I don't feel like I can trustmy mind.
I can't stop thinking aboutsomething.
My sleep is horrific, notbecause I'm tired, but because I
just can't sleep.

Emily (39:31):
Or I'm super overwhelmed.
Yeah, you're totallyoverwhelmed.
Like, that's enough to saysomething's probably not right.
And whether or not you are ableto access or you ever seek that
diagnosis at that time of yourlife, it doesn't mean you don't
deserve support.
It doesn't matter what it lookslike, you know?
Exactly.
Period.
It's like sometimes it's helpful, because you can name

(39:52):
the thing or name the symptom.
Like, I'm feeling this way, andyou know, this thing is acting
up or whatever, for me.
But yeah, it's like it reallyisn't necessary.
And I mean, from a billingperspective, it's like sometimes
the diagnosis isn't the mostimportant thing.
When you're filling out theform and sending it off to

(40:14):
insurance, like...
Yeah, we just gotta findsomething that works.
And I think that's reallyimportant is, like, it doesn't
matter to us either.
Like, some people don't knowwhat their diagnoses are.
I only know because I asked.
I was like, what are youdiagnosing me with?
I was like, what's what- and Ihad the wherewithal to ask, and
I was like, this is what Ithink, and it was confirmed.
So it was kind of like, okay.
But a really good provider andfinding a good provider means

(40:36):
finding somebody who looks atyou as a person and your
symptoms as a sort ofconstellation of what's going on
with you.
Like it's not, you are not yourdiagnosis, and your label is
not like something that definesyour journey and parenthood.
So it shouldn't be that that'swhat we're relying on, but it
can be a tool of naming yourexperience and feeling validated
that it's real, but itshouldn't define your journey.
So it's something that we needto be nuanced about, for sure.

Dani (40:58):
So, like, your diagnosis doesn't define your journey, but
it can inform, like, what todo.

Kara (41:04):
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's real what you'regoing through.
It can validate the experienceand give you guidance on how to
proceed.

Dani (41:09):
Yeah.

Kara (41:10):
It does not predict the rest of the journey, the middle,
the ending.
It's just part of thebeginning.
That's all people need to thinkabout sometimes.

Dani (41:17):
Aw, yeah.

Emily (41:19):
It's a little bit like clothes.
Like you don't put on a pair ofpants and wear them every day
for the rest of your life.
Like, you wear them todaybecause they work today.
And tomorrow the weather mightbe different, and other
conditions might be different,and your body might be
different, and so those pantsdon't work.
You need something else.

Kara (41:35):
Yeah, and same thing with the treatment.
It's like whatever therapy youneed, whatever medication you
need, which, like, by the way, Iabsolutely took medication when
I was postpartum.
I needed it.
And I was very fortunatebecause I was in the field, that
I literally called mypsychiatrist from the hospital
and said, I am not okay.
We need to have an appointment.
And she called something in forme.
Like it's because I had accessto that, but, like, I knew that

(41:55):
it was okay.
And I've needed medication offand on in my life, like since I
was in middle school fordifferent things.
So I had experience with it.
But, like, the stigma of thatis so important too.
Of that doesn't have to beforever either.
If you need it, use it.
It's a tool in the toolbox.
That's all.

Dani (42:10):
I have to give a quick shout out real fast to PSI's
perinatal consultation program.

Emily (42:17):
Yeah.
Quick little PSA.
If your doctor or provider,whatever, is saying anything
like you shouldn't be takingthis medicine, get a second
opinion, give them PSI's psychconsult program...
number?
The website, yeah.

Dani (42:32):
Because for free, providers can check in with
another totally qualifiedprovider just to brainstorm and
talk.

Emily (42:39):
Yeah, like an expert in the field.
It could be anything from is Xsafe during pregnancy or
postpartum to I have a verynuanced, like you were saying,
I'm treating the whole personand I'm seeing lots of different
component parts here.
What's the best course oftreatment?

Dani (42:55):
I'm just gonna throw that in the show notes.
If anybody's listening, becauseKara, you are absolutely right.
Meds are okay.

Kara (43:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's like you don't have totake medication if it's not
right for you, you don't needit, for sure.
We're not saying you have to,but absolutely don't discount
it.
I think that is like the mostimportant thing.
It's not a bad thing.
There's such a fear of it.
Again, there's so muchexpectation around how we're
supposed to do this, butmedication isn't bad.
There, it's...
yeah.

Dani (43:20):
There's expectation.
There's also misinformation,too.
There are a lot of things thatare okay to have, while you're
breastfeeding, while you'repregnant.

Emily (43:28):
We don't think about, let's say, like an SSRI or an
ADHD stimulant or I don't know,a mood stabilizer of any other
variety, right?
We don't think about thosemedications the same way that we
think about medications thatyou take when you have a
headache.
You observe the headache andyou go, there are tools.

(43:49):
Yes, medication's one of them.
Sometimes you need to drinkwater, sometimes you need to go
sit in a quiet place, or like,you know, remove yourself from a
hot room and go cool off.
We don't think about it like,I'm taking this and it's going
to permanently change me, butsomehow we get it convoluted
that like...
Who's we?

(44:10):
We- me, me.
If you have to stay ahead ofthat headache and it's gonna
come back, I'm looking at mywatch and I'm going, okay, cool.
Like, I have taken thisibuprofen.
I know that it's gonna wear offat X time, and I need to take
another so that the headachedoesn't come back or so that the
pain in my knee doesn't comeback.
We know it metabolizes out.
Like it is a temporarysolution.

(44:32):
It is not a permanent solution.
It's just part, like we areso...

Dani (44:38):
Emily's fired up.

Kara (44:39):
You're giving me a really good idea for a training that
I've been thinking about doing.

Dani (44:42):
Ooh.
Go on.

Kara (44:44):
So my undergrad was in history, and I did a lot with
women's studies.
And I will tell you that a lotof the demonization of
medication and psychotherapy andpsychiatry, especially in
women, is rooted in patriarchalBS and just misogyny.
So it's not shocking

Dani (44:56):
Oh, damn, we're getting into it.

Kara (44:58):
It's not shocking.

Emily (44:59):
Shots fired.

Kara (45:01):
Yeah.
So it's just problematic, thesystem is problematic.
I mean, it's the same thing-it's totally different, but goes
back to the same thing of trustin providers, and that's a part
of the trust in providers too.
The American obstetricalpractices that we uphold and
some of the beginning, uh, theorigins of obstetrical care in
America are rooted in slavery.
Slaves were practiced on fordoctors to learn how to provide

(45:23):
care.
So, of course, that's somethingthat's long-lasting that we
need to be aware of.
And so...
And the move away frommid-wifery is deeply
anti-Semitic.
Like...
Yeah, there's a lot ofintersectionality in these
spaces that we can't ignore andhistorical roots.
We're just still working ondismantling misinformation, like
you said, Dani, and also youhave to understand why it's

(45:44):
there to be able to fight it.
But it is really problematic.
I mean, I think about that too.
When I was in undergrad, I tooka class called witchcraft in
the middle ages, and we talkedabout basically why women were
accused of witchcraft – becauseit was a way to control them
from a sexual perspective.
Like, that was a huge part ofit.

Emily (45:59):
I want to take that class.
Where'd you go to school?

Dani (46:02):
That's it.
We're going back, we're goingback to school.
Sorry.
Sorry, Kara.
Go ahead.

Kara (46:05):
That's fine.
My undergrad was at MaristCollege.
So I had an amazing professor,Janine Peterson.
She was wonderful.
I'm still in contact with her,but she was my professor for
that class.
And it was great.

Dani (46:15):
We're getting real nerdy today.
I love this.
No, I mean, I mean that in thebest way.

Kara (46:23):
Right, yeah.
Knowledge is power.
Yeah.

Emily (46:26):
Yes.
Okay.
Well, before we get too fardown any more rabbit holes, we
should probably lightning roundand ask you the real pressing
questions.

Kara (46:35):
I love that.
Let's do it.

Dani (46:36):
I wasn't done talking about witchcraft and, like,
dismantling misinformation.
Whatever.
Okay.
Um, okay, Kara, are you readyfor a lightning round?

Kara (46:45):
Yeah, let's do it.

Dani (46:46):
Okay.
Besides this podcast, do youhave any other favorite podcasts
that you would like to suggestto our listeners?

Kara (46:53):
Yeah.
So two that I really like.
I really love, if you are abirth trauma survivor, I love
The Birth Trauma Mama's podcast.
It's great.
And then I also love, it's ahyper local podcast for Jersey
folks, but it's great.
It's called Jess Press Play.
And she's actually a perinatalmental health survivor of
postpartum OCD and birth trauma.
And she invites small businessowners on and she talks about

(47:13):
just like, because she's a smallbusiness owner, she talks about
small biz, she talks aboutthings that bring her joy, but
she also talks a lot aboutmental health on her podcast.
And I think it's nice becauseit's not expected, so it kind of
like sneaks in there, but she'sa big advocate for perinatal
mental health.

Dani (47:27):
Ooh.

Emily (47:27):
That's cool.

Dani (47:28):
Incredible.
Great suggestions.

Emily (47:30):
Okay.
Are you binge watching,reading, listening to anything
really good?
Like, what do I need to add tothe queue?
I'm so boring, I, like, findwhatever's on Netflix whenever I
have a chance to watchsomething mindless.
So it's great.
I'm watching Arcane on Netflixright now with my husband, it's
based on a video game.
So it's kind of like he wantedto watch it, so let's do it.

(47:52):
And but it is, it is prettyintense, so it's good.
I also, oh, shout out to, Ibinge watched The Pitt.
I loved The Pitt so much, and Ican't wait for that to come
back.
My favorite read lately, that'sa heavy one, but an amazing
book if you are interested intrauma at all, is What My Bones
Know by Stephanie Foo.
I love that book.

Dani (48:09):
Somebody else recently suggested that.

Emily (48:12):
Yes.

Kara (48:13):
She's great.

Dani (48:14):
Yeah, I read the synopsis and I was like...

Kara (48:18):
Yeah, it's a heavy one, but I actually have recommended
it to other clients.
Including, I had a male clientthat read it and he was like a
50-year-old ex-cop, and he waslike, this was incredible.
This like changed my life, andI was shocked.
So I just highly recommend itto people.

Dani (48:32):
I'm looking to see if I actually already put this in my
Audible queue.

Emily (48:36):
You're like, uh oh, I already have it.

Dani (48:39):
I have a follow-up throwback question that was not
on the list of questions.
Are you like a book in yourhand or book in your ear kind
of?

Kara (48:46):
I used to love to read in my hand and now I only audible
because it is the only way thatreading happens.
Yeah.

Dani (48:52):
Also, uh another follow-up question that was not on the
list of questions, becauseapparently that's what I'm doing
right now.
Uh, what speed do you listen toyour books at?

Kara (49:00):
Oh my God, I love that question.
1.1 to 1.2.
Okay, that's great!

Emily (49:05):
I love that question! Like, we need to ask everyone.

Dani (49:09):
I love that.
1.2 is like a sweet spot.

Kara (49:11):
I think it is too.
I think it's our brains workthe same, you know?
I think Kara and I are vibingright now.
Sorry, Emily.
She's over here, like...
what would you say?
Oh my gosh, that could be likea t-shirt.
What is your audible, uh,what's your audiobook listening
speed?
I don't know.
We'll talk about it later.
Anyway, because you're like 1.5or higher.

Emily (49:31):
It depends on the book.
Okay, I need to get like realsci-fi nerdy for a minute.

Dani (49:36):
Okay.
When I listen to FrankHerbert's Dune, 1.75.
Too slow, let's go! Like itwas, it's so slow.

Kara (49:45):
That's fair.

Dani (49:46):
It's like you're selling hot dogs at a side of a stadium.
1.75 all day long!

Emily (49:51):
Yes.
Now there are other books thatare already kind of fast.
Like the reader is deliveringit fast.
And so like it varies quite abit, but I would say like 1.5 is
my average.
Not to make it about me.
Kara, what's your favorite bestparenting hack?

Kara (50:09):
Yeah.
Oh, so I was gonna say beforewe move on for books, I'm gonna
shamelessly plug because I thinkI want to share it as a
resource.
I actually wrote a children'sbook.
It is not on Audible.
You have to buy the hard copy,but you can read it to your
kids.
And it's called Mama'sThoughts.
And it is available on Amazon,but it's literally the story of
what moms tell themselves whenthey have negative or scary
thoughts told through the eyesof baby, so that it's easy to

(50:30):
digest.
And in the back are resources,including PSI resources, stuff
about medication.
So I just love to plug that aslike if you are a reader or
you're just like, I want to readto my kids, but I'm so tired of
reading the same bed type storyover and over again.
It's great.

Dani (50:43):
Yes.
And you can use it to talkabout perinatal mental health
disorders with older kids andolder siblings as a starting
point.

Emily (50:49):
Yes.
I love that.
It's a book for all ages.

Kara (50:54):
Yeah.
And we will put a link to thatin the show notes, okay?
Everybody go buy one.

Emily (50:59):
Yes.

Dani (51:00):
Because Kara is awesome and that book sounds amazing.
I love that.

Emily (51:03):
Yeah.

Kara (51:03):
Thank you.
We're doing a fundraiser forPSI actually through the end of
July, and we're gonna do itagain.
I often sell it and I use it asa fundraiser for PSI, as like
something to do.

Dani (51:15):
Great.
Okay.

Emily (51:16):
That is so cool.

Dani (51:17):
Do we need to put a specific link in the show notes
or?

Kara (51:19):
Nope.
Just a link to it on Amazon?
Yep, yep.
We donate proceeds all the timefrom the sales of the book.

Dani (51:25):
Okay.

Emily (51:26):
Cool.

Dani (51:26):
Great.
I just want to say one otherthing.
I love books that give parents,like, the words to say.
Sometimes it's hard to know howto talk about things with kids,
and I love that you did this.
So
Thank you.
Nice job.
Everybody, go buy that book.

Emily (51:42):
Speaking of your book, is it your parenting hack or do
you have another one?

Kara (51:46):
Uh, my parenting hack, and it's something I talk about a
lot, is that parenting is a lotlike surfing.
There is no balance all thetime.
You are constantly gettingknocked over by waves and
learning how to swim parallel toshore, or float in the riptide
when it gets really rough.
So don't look for balance.
Just learn how to surf and doyour best in the water.

Dani (52:02):
Oh my gosh.
Dang, you're hitting us with ananalogy.

Kara (52:06):
I got a lot.
This is how my brain works.
I got lots of metaphors andanalogies.
I'm all about that.
Yeah, that's my brain.

Dani (52:11):
Kara, me too.

Kara (52:13):
I know.
We're gonna be like new bestfriends.
It's gonna happen.

Dani (52:15):
I feel very bonded.
I just say random, you know,like Emily probably scratches
her head all the time when Istart off my sentence with, you
know what this is like?

Kara (52:24):
Uh-huh.

Dani (52:24):
And then it's like, she probably is like-

Emily (52:27):
I disagree.

Dani (52:28):
I don't know where we're going here, but I'm here for it.
Metaphor is very helpful.

Kara (52:33):
Yeah.
Because there are times where,like, just explaining the theory
or the understanding of a thingisn't enough.
Like, you need– I don't know–something that feels more
tangible.
Yeah.
Experience.

Dani (52:47):
Yeah.

Emily (52:47):
Everybody wears pants, you know?

Kara (52:49):
True.

Emily (52:50):
Sort of.

Dani (52:51):
Some people don't, but anyway, whatever.
Okay, I digress.
Okay.
Uh, Kara, what is one way thatyou'll show yourself a little
radical love today?

Kara (53:00):
Um, I will say no to doing something that doesn't work for
me today.
I actually took something offmy schedule because it was just
too much.
And I was like, yeah, likewe're not doing that today.
So I said no.

Dani (53:10):
Boom! Isn't that like such a gift?

Kara (53:13):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
And a practice for usrecovering people pleasers.
We have to learn how to say no.

Dani (53:18):
It's so hard.
Oh my gosh.
It doesn't mean anything likebad about it, doesn't say
anything bad about you as aperson if you need to have a
healthy boundary.
So do it.

Kara (53:28):
Yeah, and you don't have to say sorry.
You could just be like, thanksso much for understanding that I
can't do it.
I really appreciate it.
Yeah.

Dani (53:34):
Right.

Emily (53:35):
Mm-hmm.
I'm gonna write that down.

Dani (53:37):
Yeah, that's perfect.
Okay.
Emily, get in a time machine.
Ask Kara if she wants to get ina time machine.
Come on.
Let's get in a time machine.

Emily (53:46):
I'm gonna get in to the TARDIS...
Just kidding.
Okay, that's a very niche timemachine reference to a science
fiction show.
Anyway, um, what is one thingthat you wish that you could go
back in time and say topre-recovery you?
Where do we go?
What do you say?

Kara (54:02):
I love that question.
In my EMDR journey, I actuallydid this type of work, where I
like I went back and like kindof talked to her as like part of
the way that I've engaged withthat process.
And I have clients do this now.
So what I would tell myself isyou are doing so much better
than you think you are, andyou're going to be okay.
And I think that that's likesomething that I've had the

(54:22):
ability to do myself.
One of the things I haveclients do, and I encourage all
parents to do this, is twothings.
If you're in your prenataljourney and you're right before
birth, I have parents go out andbuy a birthday card, but not to
the baby, but to themselves,and they write about all the
things they're scared of andlike what's gonna happen, so
that they get to give it tothemselves as like this you're
born into this parent role nowand, like, to look back on of

(54:43):
like how far they've come in thejourney.
And then I also will haveparents, when they're towards
the end of their work with me aslike a closure activity,
something we're working on of,like, putting their hand on
their heart, going back, andlike having a meeting with that
part of them.
And then having a conversation,and, like, what do they notice
about you, what do you noticeabout them, so that you can have
that dialogue.
Because that part can always bewith you and it can be a
support of like look we learnedsomething and we went through

(55:06):
something hard.
It doesn't have to be a badthing of like I don't want to
connect to you, but it can besomething that there can be
mutual gratitude and respect,that you can now move forward
together.
So it's a really cool processthat I like to think about.
So when you asked me that,that's what I thought about.

Emily (55:19):
Cool.

Dani (55:20):
I love that.
Those are great activities.

Emily (55:22):
Yeah.

Kara (55:23):
Thanks.

Dani (55:23):
Yeah.

Emily (55:24):
You're doing better than you think you are.

Kara (55:26):
You are, yeah.
You're gonna be okay.

Emily (55:28):
Yeah.

Dani (55:29):
Kara, how do you take your water?

Kara (55:31):
Um, preferably iced, and I really like raspberry seltzer.
That is like...
when I need to drink water, Iwill go for a raspberry seltzer.
Yeah.

Dani (55:41):
Okay.
Any specific, well, I don'tknow if we can talk about
brands, but we don't have to.

Kara (55:45):
I mean, whatever's on sale works just fine for me.

Dani (55:48):
Cool.

Kara (55:48):
I will say my beverage of choice is coffee.
I am like a coffee addict, andI will absolutely shout out Poor
City Roasters, which is mylocal coffee place that
literally caffeinates meforever.
And they're like the nicestpeople.
So I will shout them out ifanybody's local to northern New
Jersey.

Emily (56:02):
Are they a Climb sponsor yet?
They are.

Dani (56:04):
Oh!
They donate, but as like raffleitems, but they did a Climb
event with us, they do theCaffeinate to Climb event with
us leading up to it.
They always pick like one oftheir kids' birthdays, is like
the day they do it in June.
But they donate, we raised $750with them this year.
It was a lot of money that weraised.
Yeah.
You know what?
We're putting their link in theshow notes.
What's up?

Kara (56:24):
Yeah, they're the best.

Dani (56:25):
Poor City Roasters.

Kara (56:26):
Yeah, Franklin Lakes, New Jersey.

Emily (56:28):
Cool.

Dani (56:29):
Kara, if anybody wants to get a hold of you, um...

Emily (56:32):
555.
Just kidding.

Dani (56:33):
5555.
Uh, for anybody, like, thatgrew up in the 90s, hey! Those
aren't real phone numbers.
Do you want people to get ahold of you?
Should they check out yourwebsite?
Are you on social media?
Tell us.

Kara (56:48):
Yeah.
So I have a couple of socialmedia accounts people can
follow.
If they want to follow mespecifically, I am Taking Kara.
It's K-A-R-A dot Humans.
So takingkara.humans.
I love that.
And then my practice's Instagram is a work of heart
underscore counseling onInstagram.
And we are a group therapypractice based in North Jersey

(57:10):
with two locations with 15providers, and we serve women,
children, parents, teens.
We say we are from cradle tocollege and beyond.
We're, like, there for thatfamily system, so...

Dani (57:20):
That's catchy.

Kara (57:21):
Thank you.
And we areaworkofheartcounseling.com if
people want to find our websiteto work with us.
And we're providers licensed inJersey, Pennsylvania, South
Carolina, and Florida.

Dani (57:32):
Oh, okay, so if you're in any of those states.
And you are taking new clients?

Kara (57:37):
Yeah.

Dani (57:38):
Okay, great.
As of the summer of 2025, youheard it here.
Check Kara's business out, AWork of Heart Counseling.

Kara (57:46):
Yeah, it's hard work because it's heart work.

Dani (57:48):
Oh, Kara, you just have too many great lines!
Boom!
I just- this is like, that waswhat started it.
I had a boss, a principal in aschool, who literally said that
to me once about the work wewere doing because I was like so
concerned about a kid and itstuck with me forever.
And then I was like, that'swhat I'm going with when I open
a practice one day.
Yeah.
It's like silver platter, right there, hello?
Yeah.

Emily (58:08):
Thank you.

Dani (58:09):
Well, great.
I think that about wraps it upfor today.
This was so lovely talking toyou, Kara.
Emily, would you like to takeus out?

Emily (58:18):
I would love to.
Kara, it has been a pleasuretalking to you about yourself
and your journey.
It's always a pleasure tobrainstorm Climb things with
you.
Let's be coffee friends andhang out in real life.
Road trip! Thank you forsharing your story and for
talking about all of the hardthings and for dropping a lot of
great, like, sound bite– it'slike six words or less.

(58:43):
We can all remember thesethings and just keep them in our
lives and in our days.
So thank you so much.

Kara (58:49):
Thanks for having me, guys.

Dani (58:51):
Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast.
Check out today's show noteswhere we'll drop links to all
the important things that wementioned in this episode.
Please consider sharing about IAm One on social media and
following and rating our showwherever it is that you listen
to podcasts.
It only takes a minute of yourtime, and well, that'll help our
collective mission of bringingresources and local support to

(59:15):
folks worldwide.
From everyone here at PSI,thanks again for listening.

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KARA KUSHNIR - I AM ONE Birth Trauma and Postpartum OCD Survivor, Therapist and Change Maker

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}KARA KUSHNIR - I AM ONE Birth Trauma and Postpartum OCD Survivor, Therapist and Change Maker