CBS News Correspondent and CBS Weekend anchor Jericka Duncan was given the task of covering the the trial of Sean "Diddy" Combs. Her assignment puts her at the courthouse and in the courtroom every day of the trial so she has a front row seat to all of the action happening inside and outside of the courtroom.
This week, Jericka brings on Bonsu Thompson, writer, producer, former music editor for XXL Magazine and former editor in chief of The Source magazine to discuss the complex legacy of Sean Combs. In their conversation, they explore the implications of Combs' actions within the music industry as well as the predatory nature of the industry, the influence of figures like Andre Harrell, and the challenges of reconciling an artist's work with their personal behavior. The conversation also touches on the broader cultural context, including the impact of unhealed artists and the potential political ramifications of Combs' legal troubles.
THE TEAM
Host: Jericka Duncan
Executive Producer/Editor: Scott Riggs
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
How do you think Sean Combs' legacy will be
impacted by this
SPEAKER_03 (00:06):
trial?
I think that goes without sayingtremendously, because even if
he's found not guilty, it'llfollow him for the rest of his
life.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
It's hard to tell.
It's hard to tell at this time.
SPEAKER_03 (00:18):
I feel like there's going to be a negative impact
either way.
I think that, you know, they'vekind of gotten into more of the
world of what Diddy does behindthe scenes.
So unfortunately now, you know,it's just really about the court
of public opinion.
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
Legacy matters.
It is what we leave behind.
It follows the people we love,our children, their children.
It is our family history.
It assigns an ideal or judgmenton those who embody that legacy.
And for the people who may notbe directly part of it, they
have the privilege of gettingclose enough to the legacy to
(00:59):
claim their role in itsachievements or distance
themselves from the dark side.
So what will become of SeanCombs' legacy?
And who is he to us now that weknow some of the most intimate
parts of his life that have beenkept out of the limelight?
for so long and for obviousreasons.
I'm Jerika Duncan, CBS Newsnational correspondent and
(01:22):
anchor of the CBS Weekend News.
Today, we will answer thosequestions with writer and
producer Bonsu Thompson.
He is the former music editorfor XXL Magazine and also worked
as an editor-in-chief of TheSource Magazine, both
publications dedicated tocovering hip-hop culture.
But before we get into thatconversation, it's important to
(01:43):
remind all of you about thefederal case, United States of
America versus Sean Combs, thecharges, what's at stake, and
the witnesses who testified thisweek.
Combs is facing five felonycounts, which include
racketeering conspiracy, whichcarries a maximum sentence of
life, two counts of sextrafficking by force, fraud, or
(02:04):
coercion, and two counts oftransportation to engage in
prostitution.
According to the government,Combs abused, threatened and
coerced women and others aroundhim for decades to fulfill his
sexual desires, protect hisreputation and conceal his
conduct.
The government says Combs reliedon employees, resources and
(02:25):
influence from his multifacetedbusiness empire that he led and
controlled creating a criminalenterprise whose members and
associates engaged in andattempted to engage in, among
other crimes, sex trafficking,forced labor, kidnapping, arson,
bribery, and obstruction ofjustice.
Combs has denied any wrongdoingand has pleaded not guilty to
(02:48):
all charges.
This week, we heard from a fireinvestigator, former stylist
Dante Nash, and two of Combs'former employees, Capricorn
Clark, and a woman who went bythe pseudonym Mia.
Both discussed havingcomplicated relationships with
Combs.
Both say they experienced Combsbeing violent toward them and
Cassie Ventura, Combs' longtimeformer girlfriend.
(03:12):
Mia testified she herself wassexually assaulted by Combs
early into working for Combs asan assistant around 2009 or
2010.
And with both witnesses, thedefense sought to discredit them
by pulling up old emails andInstagram messages showing both
women expressing love andsupport for the mogul.
(03:33):
Clark acknowledged she evenproposed working for Combs as
recently as April of 2024 afterCombs' homes were raided by
Homeland Security.
Many of you are commenting onthis story asking, where is the
racketeering?
Where is the sex trafficking?
And where is the proof thatCombs engaged in the
transportation of prostitutes?
(03:54):
I spoke to CBS News legalcontributor, Katrina Kaufman,
who's also been covering thistrial inside the courtroom.
And she explained where thingsstand specifically relating to
those various charges.
Take a listen.
SPEAKER_02 (04:07):
With racketeering, the prosecution has to prove
that there was some form ofagreement among people working
for Combs to commit at least twounderlying crimes.
And this could be one of anumber of things, but they've
brought up kidnapping, arson,bribery.
And these are things that we'vebeen hearing about some
testimony for on the stand.
For example, Cassie Ventura,Sean Combs' ex, talked about
(04:29):
instances where she was kept ata hotel.
These were after what she sayswere moments of violent abuse
against her, where Sean Combskept her hidden away, and she
wasn't allowed to leave, forinstance, the London Hotel at
one point.
For about a week, she testified.
Capricorn Clark is someone whoworked very closely with Sean
Combs over a number of years,and this proximity to him
(04:50):
allowed her to really see a lotof things.
She also plays into thiskidnapping allegation.
She talked about two instanceswhere she alleges she was
kidnapped.
One, she says she was brought toa building over the course of
five days.
There had been some jewelry.
It was in her possession.
and she had reported it missing.
Combs then had her brought tothis place where a man gave her
(05:12):
a lie detector test every dayfor five days.
He said if they didn't get tothe bottom of what happened, she
would end up in the East River.
Now, Capricorn Clark alsotestified about another instance
of alleged kidnapping.
She says Combs came to her housewith a gun and forced her to go
to Kid Cuddy's house.
This was the same day that Combsallegedly found out that Cassie
(05:34):
Ventura and Kid Cuddy had beendating, supposedly broke into
Kid Cudi's house and then laterbeat Ventura.
When it comes to theracketeering conspiracy charge,
the prosecution has been layinga foundation for this.
We keep hearing these names overand over again.
Security guards that were partof Combs' entourage who knew
about these events, whowitnessed them and who even
(05:56):
participated them in some ways.
Also incidents where they werereported to higher ups at his
company.
So they're really going to haveto keep tying these threads
together.
But we're hearing the foundationof all of these charges and
allegations.
And what's really important isthat Combs was directing all of
this.
And this is testimony we'veheard a number of times, that
people were executing Combs'orders, that they had to please
(06:19):
him, that he was always tellingthem what to do and had such
control over all of the conductat his company.
Jerika, at the same time, we'reseeing the defense try to poke
holes in these witnesses'testimony, showing different
versions of stories that we'veheard on the stand, for one, but
also how a lot of these peoplecontinue to have contact with
Combs, to reach out to him overthe years, and often in 11 way.
(06:42):
Even Deontay Nash, a celebritystylist who considers himself
one of Cassie Ventura's bestfriends and worked very closely
with them, said he doesn't hatehim and that when he
communicated with him later on,there was a loving tone to that
communication.
So we're really seeing howcomplex these relationships are.
A lot of the witnesses have saidthat.
They've said these werecomplicated relationships.
(07:04):
There was abuse, they allege.
There was violence, they allege.
But they also have love andrespect for Sean Combs.
Now for the transportation forthe purpose of prostitution
charge, Jerika, what they haveto show is that people were
brought across state lines forthe purpose of illegal sex acts
or prostitution.
Now, this could be Cassie or theescorts that were moved around
(07:24):
the country and even sometimesoutside the U.S.
to engage in these freak-offswith Sean Combs.
But what the prosecution has toprove is that these were not
consensual acts.
And that's what the defense istrying to emphasize.
They say Cassie was a willingparticipant in all of this.
She was Sean Combs' girlfriend,and yes, they had different
sexual proclivities maybe, butshe still chose to participate
(07:47):
in these.
When it comes to this federaltrial, all 12 jurors have to
unanimously find Sean Combsguilty beyond a reasonable
doubt.
He could face up to life inprison here.
So if they don't, we could endup with a hung jury.
That's a situation where theprosecution would then have to
decide if they want to bringthis case again.
And remember, this case issupposed to take eight weeks.
(08:08):
It's taken a lot of courtresources.
It would be extremely cumbersomefor both sides and for the
court.
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
That again was CBS legal contributor Katrina
Kaufman.
Back to how we started, I wantto delve into Combs' legacy,
whether he walks free or if he'sconvicted of crimes.
(08:37):
And what better way to breakthat down than to speak to
someone who is a study ofhip-hop culture, among many
other things, Mr.
Bonsu Thompson, everyone.
SPEAKER_04 (08:46):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
Thank you so much for joining me for this podcast,
Bantu.
I want to go back to a momentabout two years ago where I
bumped into you at an eventcelebrating the 25 years of
XXL's special edition of TheGreatest Day in Hip Hop,
September 29th, 1998.
Set the scene for us, becausethat was a pivotal moment.
SPEAKER_04 (09:11):
I mean, it was one of the most amazing days of my
life.
I was a senior at the time.
senior at del state universityprint journalism if y'all
remember what that was at onepoint and i was so what happened
was i interned the previoussummer uh at harris publications
which is the public publicationhome for double excel and uh i
(09:36):
was offered a job to not go backto school, but I knew that my
grandmother would kill mebecause I was the first
grandchild to graduate in myfamily.
So I went back for my senioryear and, but I would still, you
know, contribute and, you know,on like off days, I would come
back to the city.
And when I found out they werehaving this greatest day shoot,
I had to play hooky.
(09:57):
I fled Delaware and came back toNew York for the day.
And I mean, just imagine this,right?
It's, I'm a college kid.
I have been a hip-hop baby fromconception, and it's the
greatest group of hip-hopnotables.
I'm talking executives, artists.
(10:17):
I'm meeting my favorite MCs fromBlack Thought to Rakim to
Wu-Tang to Tretch from Naughtyby Nature, Wyclef.
I mean, Run DMC, on and on andon, plus executives.
Jermaine Dupri, Russell Simmons.
I mean, it's just on and on andon.
Just like a waterboard of yourfavorite, you know, hip hop
(10:38):
notables of the culture,everybody who made up your
culture.
And I'm this impressionable, youknow, college kid.
And it's just one block.
So you're running into iconsevery turn, every step, east,
west, north, south.
And it was a beautiful day.
It was extremely stressful onthe staff because, I mean, you
know, it was all production andwrangling.
SPEAKER_01 (10:59):
And this is for people who aren't familiar.
It's a picture of all of theseartists, like over 170, I
believe, that were on the stepsof the same iconic picture by
Art Kane, where they arehonoring the greatest jazz
musicians.
But it's kind of the golden agewhere it's sort of ending.
But this was almost the birth ofright.
This is this is hip hop at itspinnacle.
(11:21):
And it is 1998.
SPEAKER_04 (11:24):
And being shot by Gordon Parks, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
And shot by the great Gordon Parks.
So I want to start there becausethat was such a moment to
reflect on how beautiful thattime was, even if you weren't
old enough to really appreciateit in the same way I was in high
school at the time.
But look at where we are now.
(11:47):
I think there's a critiquethat's happening everywhere.
And part of it has to do withthis trial.
And that's what I wanted toreally talk to you about because
you have someone like Sean Combsfacing up to life in prison.
But take us behind the scenes asyou see it when you look at some
of the things that we'rediscussing, some of the names
(12:10):
and details of alleged actions.
Offline, you and I talked andyou said based on sort of what
you even saw behind the scenes,some of it's not that shocking.
SPEAKER_04 (12:21):
No, you have to understand, you know, Sean Combs
is being accused of a lot ofpredatorial behavior, right?
And I don't think peopleunderstand just how predatorial
this music industry is.
You know, it's from contracts ondown to the way men interact
(12:42):
with women.
It's almost par for the course,you know?
And again, this is not to excuseanything that Puff or anybody
else has done.
But the nature, it was almostaccepted.
You know, in 1999, when we weretalking about the great day of
hip hop, you know, that was verymuch like my wet behind the
ears.
(13:03):
I was a little naive to theindustry.
You know, you hear about Q-Tiptalking about, you know,
industry rule number 4008.
You hear about this stuff andyou think it's just like some,
you know, some white guy in asuit trying to take advantage of
some poor black talented kid.
And it wasn't.
No, it's not that natural.
It's not that simple.
It was way more layered.
And the people within theculture were also complicit.
(13:26):
You had major executives, Blackexecutives, pioneering
executives who were, yes, weremavericks in giving reflection
to Black and Latino peoplethrough the music, through the
culture, but they were alsolearning the business.
And they were learning thebusiness from piranhas,
basically, essentially piranhas,folks who made a living on
(13:50):
taking advantage of talent.
And yes, you can throw in racein that, because I think race
always plays a part in anything,especially when you're talking
about America.
But the nature of the businessfor decades prior to hip hop was
always predatory, takingadvantage.
I mean, you can go back to thejazz days.
Um, and it just, it's not, it'snot just racial.
I mean, you know, you will have,you know, white on white, you
(14:12):
know, it's, it's the white execwill take advantage of the, you
know, Jewish guitar player.
You know what I'm saying?
Like if they have a hit recordor if they see they can make
something off of them.
And then when you, you add inthe genders and like
impressionable young women whoare talented, um, it just, it
runs the gamut, you know?
Um, so, you know, it's, it'sinteresting that everybody who's
(14:33):
focused on, Puff and hisbehaviors and all of that.
And it's like, it's way biggerthan just his relationship with
Cassie.
Like, where does he come from?
Where was he groomed?
You know, the nature of hisbusiness.
You know, it's almost likeyou're almost discouraged,
right, to move ethically in thisbusiness.
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
When you talk about where he came from, for those
who aren't familiar with hisbackstory, his relationship,
short-lived relationship withhis father, what sort of
Insight, can you give us topeople listening about how that
might play into some of whatwe're hearing in the courtroom?
SPEAKER_04 (15:11):
And again, I'm trying to stay away from.
From from a couch diagnosing,but, you know, you have to look
at the man.
Right.
And usually when the saying ishurt people, hurt people.
A lot of these these execs, youknow, they're not just born
predatory.
They are leaning intoinsecurities.
(15:32):
They were the music nerd whowasn't cool enough to be in a
band.
They're trying to find theirpower.
Russell Simmons, for one, he wasalways a hip hop kid and always
enterprising.
But he definitely had hisinsecurities.
He wasn't super cool.
(15:54):
And whether you believe the rapeallegations or whatever, you can
kind of understand how these menwho are looked at as villains
were kind of created, like theirbackstory, their origin story.
So with somebody like with Puff,didn't really know his father.
His father was a hustler,murdered in the streets.
(16:15):
But of course, he had to livewith the shadow of his father
for all these years.
Harlem is a very braggadocious,very confident sector of New
York.
They've always been flashy.
And they've been at the centerof the genesis of hip hop.
Those early grounds with therooftop clubs and, you know, the
(16:38):
fashion on 125th.
They were always kind of likeshaping things, you know, and
that's where and that's whatkind of inspired Uptown Records.
Uptown Records comes from Harlemin the Bronx.
Andre Harrell is from the Bronx.
But while like The B-boy culturewas mainly in the Bronx.
The club flash, the nightlife,that was all, as far as like
(16:58):
Black and Latino, very much kindof shaped.
The glitz of it all was shapedin Harlem.
So that's where Puff comes from.
So he was always, again, whenyou're from Harlem, you are
encouraged to be a peacock.
You have to have more.
You have to be the brightest,the flashiest.
And when you take that and youwed that within the music
(17:19):
industry, And then you have thisnew time where it's like you're
just seeing new money for thefirst time.
You're seeing new money for thepeople around you.
You're empowering people aroundyou.
You're empowering young women tobe in videos.
You're empowering young women tobe singers, background singers.
You're discovering the next iconlike a Mary Jane Blige.
I mean, that's a lot of powerfor one person.
(17:40):
It's a lot of power for somebodywho may not have dealt with
their own issues before theybecame a professional.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
You mentioned Andre Harrell, the founder of Uptown
Records, and how these twostories sort of come together
because Andre Harrell is avisionary in a different type of
way than what rap was and found,as you mentioned, sort of that
soulfulness to it, more of theR&B, but also music.
(18:10):
You know, this this new thingthat we were seeing, hip hop,
where it's like the rap, but thesoulful part of it.
How much of and you can discuss,you know, what you're
comfortable with in terms ofyour own knowledge,
relationship, knowing AndreHarrell.
But he was brought up, as youknow, during this trial when
Capricorn Clark claims she wentto CAA seeking employment.
(18:33):
And Andre Harrell and SeanCombs, she said, were trying to
encourage her not to file legalaction just because there had
been some issues before thatmoment.
SPEAKER_04 (18:43):
Yes.
I don't have a lot of backgroundknowledge on that.
I do know Sean Combs is like thenephew of Andre Harrell, very
much like a son.
There is no bad boy.
There's no total...
Mary J.
Blige and what's the 411.
(19:03):
There's no wedding of hip hopand R&B with Bad Boy without
Andre Harrell.
Andre Harrell was the one whoactually had a wider vision than
Russell Simmons.
Russell Simmons was very muchfocused on keeping hip hop pure.
You know, he's very rigid andconservative in that regard.
You know, he'd wanted just LLand hard beats and, you know,
(19:24):
you know, just nothing, nothingthat even kind of like trickled
over to R&B where Andre Harrellis like, well, I want the
culture.
We're not just all outsidebreakdancing on carboards.
We're flashy.
We're wearing silk shirts.
We're popping champagne inclubs.
We're wearing fine linen in thesummertime.
(19:45):
There's New Jack Swing.
While hip-hop is a part of whowe are, it's not the totality of
who we are.
And Andre Harrell had the visionto be like, no, well, If you're
not going to give me a lane,talking to Russell Simmons, if
you're not going to give me alane with Def Jam to explore the
full breadth of who we are, thenI'm going to explore my own
(20:07):
adventures.
And that's how Elton Recordswere birthed.
That's how we got Heavy D.
That's how we got Mary J.
Blige.
That's how we got Jodeci.
And under that, you know, underthat vision of R.J.
Rell, he saw a promising, doggedintern who...
was annoying and wouldn't takeno for an answer and would cut
school to be there and do thejob and was ready to live it.
(20:30):
And that young intern was SeanCombs.
SPEAKER_01 (20:34):
Going back to 98, the album No Way Out wins a
Grammy.
You know, Combs has had 14nominations.
He's won three in his lifetime.
Do you think at that time,again, starting with that image
of the greatest day, Do youthink because the music and the
(20:55):
industry was thriving and therewere so many people making money
off of this, it was stillsomewhat new and fresh.
There's this recognition that itis sort of this could be billion
dollar industry.
Is that part of the reason whypeople turned a blind eye to the
behavior?
Again, some of which is comingup in court.
SPEAKER_04 (21:17):
Yeah, I mean, it's a myriad of reasons why.
I mean, just like drug dealersare addicted to the game,
addicted to the hustle, it's thesame way within the music
industry.
It's the allure, it's thelights.
You know, again, we're talkingabout, and again, this is such a
layered conversation when we'retalking about Black and Latino
people.
You know, we normally don't havea lot.
(21:40):
You know, we are constantlytrying to not be seen, not have
our flaws be seen.
You know, we cover it up.
We overdo it.
We sometimes become ostentatiouswhen we get a little bit.
So we have a time where it's notjust about, you know, we can
make money here.
It's about power and recognitionand status.
You know, we are at theforefront of a new movement.
(22:02):
You know, we're talking 1998.
Hip hop is already, you know, 20something years old, but it's
very new as far as it just gotrich, basically.
It got rich.
By 1998, we've only been richfor three years.
Before 1995, we had Nas andWu-Tang and Method Man.
Those guys were wearing usedjeans and smoking blunts and
(22:30):
were barely groomed.
You know, like there weren't anystylists really on those videos.
When you look at like Wu-Tang,you know, those early protection
deck videos, those guys were,they came to the set dressed,
doing whatever they had at home,you know?
So, you know, now we turn withBad Boy.
And of course, this is whereSean Combs played an iconic
role.
1995, 1994, 95, 96, we startseeing a turnout.
(22:53):
Now it's high-end attire.
It's Versace shirts, silkshirts.
It's high-end budgets.
Hype Williams, who was anintern, for Video Music Box,
Ralph McDaniels and Video MusicBox, he's now, you know, the,
you know, he's kind of like thedirector of Scorsese of that
time.
You know, the bug eye, fish eyelens, the Missy videos and a
(23:14):
million dollar videos and BustaRhymes doing the coming to
America remake, put your handsin the air.
It's a whole new time.
So when you talk about, go backto a woman like Capricorn, she's
seeing like, she's like, oh,we're at This is a new era.
It's not just about money.
It's not just about standingnext to somebody who's powerful.
(23:36):
It's the entire lifestyle ispowerful.
It's that every magazine wantswhat you have.
Every artist, every person whothinks they have a little bit of
talent wants what you have.
Everybody's trying to smooth youbecause you're standing next to
one of the most powerful men inthe business.
You know, Puffy wasn't just apowerful black exec.
He was one of the most, if notthe most powerful black exec in
(23:58):
the game.
You know, he surpassed hismentors, Andre Harrell and
Russell Simmons.
He did.
So by 1998, he can do no wrong.
So you have men, you know, forlack of a better term, bending
over for this man.
Can you imagine the women?
You know, so yes, as far asexcusing behavior.
And again, it's not just this isnot just a Sean Combs thing.
(24:21):
This was accepted.
This was accepted.
It was women were complicit aswell, you know.
But men were awful and men whoweren't so awful were actually
encouraged to be awful.
That's how crazy it is.
If you were, again, discouragedto not be fair business-wise
because it was looked at as notbad business.
Good business was getting asmuch as you can and discarding
(24:44):
whatever wasn't, discarding anddisposing of whatever wasn't
used anymore or couldn't be usedanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
In terms of Combs being known as someone that was
very shrewd, you personally sortof understood that more recently
when you did an eight-partvisual podcast series in which
you were looking at thenotorious B.I.G.''s life and
legacy and sort of the thingsthat were happening around the
time of his death, who,
SPEAKER_04 (25:12):
if
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
you don't know, you should know by now, Combs was
incredibly influential in hisascent and vice versa.
I mean, I think the two playedoff of each other well, and it
was one of those relationshipswhere you saw you know, this
producer slash artist on equalfooting in an interesting way.
But in that project, yourealized how tough it was to
(25:38):
sort of work with that side ofhim as a businessman.
Not that you guys had like a lotof one-on-one interactions, but
talk about that experience.
SPEAKER_04 (25:46):
I mean, not just, not even just that.
I mean, that's my, probably mymost recent experience with
Sean, with the Biggie series,because I was...
years ago.
But yes, true businessman, buthe also, he really holds onto
his power and usually he almostdangles it.
(26:06):
He keeps your feet to the fire.
He keeps you tap dancing.
You're going to wait as long ashe wants you to wait.
If he doesn't have an immediateno, then it's going to be a
wait.
And I don't know if that's justbecause he's doing a million one
things or he actually takespleasure in Um, and having
people kind of like, you know,wait with bated breath for his
(26:26):
response.
Um, but he ultimately, he had uswaiting.
We, you know, I mean, I'm goingto get into the minutia of the
pre-production, but, you know,he eventually just like bailed
out on us.
Um, but that wasn't my firsttime.
My first interaction was workingwith Puff.
It was, um, we've, you know,we've tried to get him for XXL.
We worked with him at XXL and itwas always the same thing.
(26:47):
It was always, just what feltlike unnecessarily, you know,
waiting for him.
Him kind of like, almost feltlike taking pleasure almost and
having everybody, we can't movewithout him, you know.
But the source, my late greatReggie Osei interviewed him for
(27:08):
my second, my third cover whileI was at EIC there.
And it was just, I mean, we'retalking days waiting for him.
And not just like to do it justto do an interview, It was also
to do the interview and then wehad to have, he had to have
approval of what got printed andjust a complete, you know, I
can't, you know, I can't justdismiss it as easily as like, it
was just him just being a Devo,but it was somebody who just
(27:31):
knew he had the power and theworld was in his hands and it
was going, I mean, it's almostlike it's something you would go
through if you're, if you wantto interview a rock, you know,
it's going to be a lot of redtape and a lot of bleeding, you
know, and it's, you know, itcould be because, you know, he's
doing a lot or it's because, Hejust takes pleasure in having
everybody just kind of waitaround for him.
(27:52):
He's just not an easy person towork with.
As shrewd as he was as abusinessman, as good of a
businessman he was, I had a lotof friends who worked with him
and it was kind of similar.
Some almost psychologicaltorture.
But also...
(28:14):
But also a lot of like theartists complaining about
contracts.
That just seemed like to be theconsistent thing.
I mean, Mace talks about that tothis day.
It's the reason why he kind ofspeaks with him with such
disdain.
You know, it's interestingbecause you listen to Mace speak
about Sean and you listen toCassie on the stand.
And it seems like Mace may hatePuff more than Cassie does.
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
Well, remember, Cassie said she doesn't hate
him.
SPEAKER_04 (28:41):
Well, I would guess that Mace wants Bob to do more
time in prison than Cassidy.
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
Okay.
So with everything that we'vediscussed, Bonsu, how then are
we, and I know people have askedyou this question or you've had
these conversations, but how arewe as people who have been
influenced by Combs expected toreconcile with this man who you
know, versus the art and themusic and the question really
(29:09):
being, does the art belong tothe people?
I
SPEAKER_04 (29:13):
don't have any interest about reconciling with
Puff or the people reconcilingwith Puff.
He has to deal with his owndemons.
I do care about the people inthe culture.
And I've always, I've alwaysasked the question, you know,
once the art is out there forthe world, like, you know,
what's the ownership state?
Like, how is that broken up?
You know, are we attached to theauthor?
(29:36):
You know, I just think that, forinstance, you know, we have
think about the soundtrack toyour life.
Right.
I think about the soundtrack tomy life.
And if I have to go through likethe 20 songs that shaped me, a
good portion are going to beterrible men.
You know, a good portion aregoing to be people who dealt
(29:58):
with substance abuse and a goodportion of people who weren't
the greatest parents, you know.
And I just think that as asociety, we have to really stop
putting these people who do onegreat thing or a couple of great
things on a pedestal as a humanbeing.
Miles Davis, one of the greatestever musician, forget just jazz,
(30:18):
ever.
And he used to beat the shit outof Cicely Tyson, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (30:23):
And to the end of her life, what was so
interesting is she still spokehighly of that being like her
one true love.
Right.
So I think you're hittingsomething in terms of just like
a very toxic environment that alot of people maybe identify
with.
which is why the cycle keepsgoing.
And you have a number of casesyou could point to where
(30:44):
powerful people, men and women,using that power, not always in
the best way.
And what I hear that's missingfrom a lot of the conversation
too is any form ofGod-centeredness.
You know, it really is all aboutme, me, me, I, I, I, and what
can I do?
gather?
What can I accumulate in termsof resources?
SPEAKER_04 (31:06):
It's beyond just as simple as like doing the right
thing, right?
I think we have to look at, wehave a lot of artists who are
unhealed before they become whothey are professionally.
You know, R.
Kelly had trauma before hebecame, before he got a record
deal.
Michael Jackson had his owninternal trauma.
(31:26):
Prince had trauma at home.
Marvin Gaye trauma at home.
You know, we have to look atthese are unhealed artists.
And when you give an unhealedperson adoration, maybe love
they never had at home,especially a lot of money and
fame, it doesn't make them abetter person.
And it's not just music.
I mean, we can go to Hollywood,et cetera.
(31:48):
So again, looking back at, thereare people who dealt with their
stuff properly in a healthy way,like 100,000.
He had issues.
He had He had, you call it, likesocial anxiety, some form of
social anxiety.
And think about it, like to dealwith social anxiety while being
(32:09):
a multi-platinum artist, right?
To be a Grammy winning artist isa lot.
It's only just, it only makesyou play heavier, you know?
But he was able to channel histalent in a positive way and
still remain a contributor tosociety.
That doesn't always happen likethat.
And again, it's not just music,but especially music doesn't
always happen like that.
So you look at our grace, and ifthey don't harm other people,
(32:31):
what happens is they normallyharm themselves.
That's how we lost Prince.
That's how we lost MichaelJackson.
Rick James hurt people, hurthimself.
R.
Kelly was hurt, hurt otherpeople.
But my question is, do we flirtwith a dangerous precedent when
we start reappraising the valueof this music according to the
(32:53):
moral compass of the author?
You know, do we flirt with that?
Is it a dangerous precedent?
Because how deep does it go?
You know, if you think MichaelJackson was a pedophile, you
know, does that make StevieWonder complicit with a right
when he wrote, you know, can't Ican't help it?
Why can't I still love thatsong, even though Michael
singing it and Stevie wrote it?
(33:13):
I don't know.
Like, how does that work?
You know, if you if you lostyour virginity to an R.
Kelly song and it was abeautiful memory, are you
supposed to remember thatquietly or are you supposed to
remember that on mute?
How deep does that go?
SPEAKER_01 (33:28):
And I guess it depends on the person.
I think it comes down to alsosupporting things from a
monetary standpoint, because youcan know things about people or
any any travesty happeningaround the world and decide that
you're going to spend your moneyeither supporting something or
saying that's what that's whereI draw the line.
So last quick question, Bonsu.
(33:49):
Does Trump pardon Combs?
UNKNOWN (33:54):
No.
SPEAKER_04 (33:55):
Absolutely.
Are you kidding me?
Absolutely, Trump.
He's ready right now.
He's ready to put the kibosh onthis entire trial.
This is a man who has openlysaid he's grabbed vagina.
You know, he is.
And that's the thing.
It's just so funny about thisworld, right?
Because we're this cancelculture.
And it's like it's almost almostlike we want to cancel the wrong
(34:16):
people.
I don't know.
It's all we're being just like.
Really passive about it.
We want to cancel the people whoare easy to cancel.
Instead of the people whoabsolutely need to have their
faucet shut off.
So yes, I wholeheartedly believehe will party just to spite all
the women who feel like he's thedevil.
SPEAKER_01 (34:34):
Bonsu Thompson, writer, producer, screenwriter,
cultural critic.
Thank you so much for your time.
And if you haven't seen hismovie, Story Ave, go see it.
SPEAKER_04 (34:46):
Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
And one more thing.
I often find myself thinkingabout the families involved in
these cases.
In court, there were a few daysI sat behind Alex Fine, the
husband of Cassie Ventura, whorecently had a baby boy.
I often wondered what Fine wasthinking during Ventura's
testimony.
Well, he told us, through astatement, he said that he was
(35:11):
proud of his wife and gives herall the credit for having the
strength that it took to saveherself.
Then there is the Combs family.
Combs' mother, his sons, histwin daughters, a few of his
friends who have regularlyattended are consistently
gesturing love and sittingstoically through details of
alleged victims saying thatCombs beat, raped, and kidnapped
(35:35):
them.
How does one make sense of anyof this?
Combs in recent years referredto himself as love.
And when Ventura was asked ifshe hated Combs, she said, I
don't hate him.
I have love for the past andwhat it was.
I personally believe it is thelove from others that are
keeping families on all sidesstanding strong.
(35:57):
And love is supposed to alwaysprevail.
But this case is not about thatalone.
It's about justice decided by 12jurors, eight men and four women
who could have the final say onthe fate of Sean Diddy Combs.
I thank you so much forlistening.
Please follow me on Instagramand TikTok.
(36:20):
I am that reporter JD.
Again, I am that reporter JD.
DM me if you have any questionsand maybe we can address them on
the next one.
Until then, have a blessed day.
Hopefully we'll see you backhere once again.
(36:43):
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to help, please, please,
please spread the word.
Tell your friends, tell yourfamily, encourage them to
listen.
You can also follow Rate andReview on Apple Podcasts and
Spotify.
And just like Uber, five-starreviews are very much
appreciated.
How do you think Sean Combs' legacy will be
impacted by this
SPEAKER_03 (00:06):
trial?
I think that goes without sayingtremendously, because even if
he's found not guilty, it'llfollow him for the rest of his
life.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
It's hard to tell.
It's hard to tell at this time.
SPEAKER_03 (00:18):
I feel like there's going to be a negative impact
either way.
I think that, you know, they'vekind of gotten into more of the
world of what Diddy does behindthe scenes.
So unfortunately now, you know,it's just really about the court
of public opinion.
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
Legacy matters.
It is what we leave behind.
It follows the people we love,our children, their children.
It is our family history.
It assigns an ideal or judgmenton those who embody that legacy.
And for the people who may notbe directly part of it, they
have the privilege of gettingclose enough to the legacy to
(00:59):
claim their role in itsachievements or distance
themselves from the dark side.
So what will become of SeanCombs' legacy?
And who is he to us now that weknow some of the most intimate
parts of his life that have beenkept out of the limelight?
for so long and for obviousreasons.
I'm Jerika Duncan, CBS Newsnational correspondent and
(01:22):
anchor of the CBS Weekend News.
Today, we will answer thosequestions with writer and
producer Bonsu Thompson.
He is the former music editorfor XXL Magazine and also worked
as an editor-in-chief of TheSource Magazine, both
publications dedicated tocovering hip-hop culture.
But before we get into thatconversation, it's important to
(01:43):
remind all of you about thefederal case, United States of
America versus Sean Combs, thecharges, what's at stake, and
the witnesses who testified thisweek.
Combs is facing five felonycounts, which include
racketeering conspiracy, whichcarries a maximum sentence of
life, two counts of sextrafficking by force, fraud, or
(02:04):
coercion, and two counts oftransportation to engage in
prostitution.
According to the government,Combs abused, threatened and
coerced women and others aroundhim for decades to fulfill his
sexual desires, protect hisreputation and conceal his
conduct.
The government says Combs reliedon employees, resources and
(02:25):
influence from his multifacetedbusiness empire that he led and
controlled creating a criminalenterprise whose members and
associates engaged in andattempted to engage in, among
other crimes, sex trafficking,forced labor, kidnapping, arson,
bribery, and obstruction ofjustice.
Combs has denied any wrongdoingand has pleaded not guilty to
(02:48):
all charges.
This week, we heard from a fireinvestigator, former stylist
Dante Nash, and two of Combs'former employees, Capricorn
Clark, and a woman who went bythe pseudonym Mia.
Both discussed havingcomplicated relationships with
Combs.
Both say they experienced Combsbeing violent toward them and
Cassie Ventura, Combs' longtimeformer girlfriend.
(03:12):
Mia testified she herself wassexually assaulted by Combs
early into working for Combs asan assistant around 2009 or
2010.
And with both witnesses, thedefense sought to discredit them
by pulling up old emails andInstagram messages showing both
women expressing love andsupport for the mogul.
(03:33):
Clark acknowledged she evenproposed working for Combs as
recently as April of 2024 afterCombs' homes were raided by
Homeland Security.
Many of you are commenting onthis story asking, where is the
racketeering?
Where is the sex trafficking?
And where is the proof thatCombs engaged in the
transportation of prostitutes?
(03:54):
I spoke to CBS News legalcontributor, Katrina Kaufman,
who's also been covering thistrial inside the courtroom.
And she explained where thingsstand specifically relating to
those various charges.
Take a listen.
SPEAKER_02 (04:07):
With racketeering, the prosecution has to prove
that there was some form ofagreement among people working
for Combs to commit at least twounderlying crimes.
And this could be one of anumber of things, but they've
brought up kidnapping, arson,bribery.
And these are things that we'vebeen hearing about some
testimony for on the stand.
For example, Cassie Ventura,Sean Combs' ex, talked about
(04:29):
instances where she was kept ata hotel.
These were after what she sayswere moments of violent abuse
against her, where Sean Combskept her hidden away, and she
wasn't allowed to leave, forinstance, the London Hotel at
one point.
For about a week, she testified.
Capricorn Clark is someone whoworked very closely with Sean
Combs over a number of years,and this proximity to him
(04:50):
allowed her to really see a lotof things.
She also plays into thiskidnapping allegation.
She talked about two instanceswhere she alleges she was
kidnapped.
One, she says she was brought toa building over the course of
five days.
There had been some jewelry.
It was in her possession.
and she had reported it missing.
Combs then had her brought tothis place where a man gave her
(05:12):
a lie detector test every dayfor five days.
He said if they didn't get tothe bottom of what happened, she
would end up in the East River.
Now, Capricorn Clark alsotestified about another instance
of alleged kidnapping.
She says Combs came to her housewith a gun and forced her to go
to Kid Cuddy's house.
This was the same day that Combsallegedly found out that Cassie
(05:34):
Ventura and Kid Cuddy had beendating, supposedly broke into
Kid Cudi's house and then laterbeat Ventura.
When it comes to theracketeering conspiracy charge,
the prosecution has been layinga foundation for this.
We keep hearing these names overand over again.
Security guards that were partof Combs' entourage who knew
about these events, whowitnessed them and who even
(05:56):
participated them in some ways.
Also incidents where they werereported to higher ups at his
company.
So they're really going to haveto keep tying these threads
together.
But we're hearing the foundationof all of these charges and
allegations.
And what's really important isthat Combs was directing all of
this.
And this is testimony we'veheard a number of times, that
people were executing Combs'orders, that they had to please
(06:19):
him, that he was always tellingthem what to do and had such
control over all of the conductat his company.
Jerika, at the same time, we'reseeing the defense try to poke
holes in these witnesses'testimony, showing different
versions of stories that we'veheard on the stand, for one, but
also how a lot of these peoplecontinue to have contact with
Combs, to reach out to him overthe years, and often in 11 way.
(06:42):
Even Deontay Nash, a celebritystylist who considers himself
one of Cassie Ventura's bestfriends and worked very closely
with them, said he doesn't hatehim and that when he
communicated with him later on,there was a loving tone to that
communication.
So we're really seeing howcomplex these relationships are.
A lot of the witnesses have saidthat.
They've said these werecomplicated relationships.
(07:04):
There was abuse, they allege.
There was violence, they allege.
But they also have love andrespect for Sean Combs.
Now for the transportation forthe purpose of prostitution
charge, Jerika, what they haveto show is that people were
brought across state lines forthe purpose of illegal sex acts
or prostitution.
Now, this could be Cassie or theescorts that were moved around
(07:24):
the country and even sometimesoutside the U.S.
to engage in these freak-offswith Sean Combs.
But what the prosecution has toprove is that these were not
consensual acts.
And that's what the defense istrying to emphasize.
They say Cassie was a willingparticipant in all of this.
She was Sean Combs' girlfriend,and yes, they had different
sexual proclivities maybe, butshe still chose to participate
(07:47):
in these.
When it comes to this federaltrial, all 12 jurors have to
unanimously find Sean Combsguilty beyond a reasonable
doubt.
He could face up to life inprison here.
So if they don't, we could endup with a hung jury.
That's a situation where theprosecution would then have to
decide if they want to bringthis case again.
And remember, this case issupposed to take eight weeks.
(08:08):
It's taken a lot of courtresources.
It would be extremely cumbersomefor both sides and for the
court.
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
That again was CBS legal contributor Katrina
Kaufman.
Back to how we started, I wantto delve into Combs' legacy,
whether he walks free or if he'sconvicted of crimes.
(08:37):
And what better way to breakthat down than to speak to
someone who is a study ofhip-hop culture, among many
other things, Mr.
Bonsu Thompson, everyone.
SPEAKER_04 (08:46):
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
Thank you so much for joining me for this podcast,
Bantu.
I want to go back to a momentabout two years ago where I
bumped into you at an eventcelebrating the 25 years of
XXL's special edition of TheGreatest Day in Hip Hop,
September 29th, 1998.
Set the scene for us, becausethat was a pivotal moment.
SPEAKER_04 (09:11):
I mean, it was one of the most amazing days of my
life.
I was a senior at the time.
senior at del state universityprint journalism if y'all
remember what that was at onepoint and i was so what happened
was i interned the previoussummer uh at harris publications
which is the public publicationhome for double excel and uh i
(09:36):
was offered a job to not go backto school, but I knew that my
grandmother would kill mebecause I was the first
grandchild to graduate in myfamily.
So I went back for my senioryear and, but I would still, you
know, contribute and, you know,on like off days, I would come
back to the city.
And when I found out they werehaving this greatest day shoot,
I had to play hooky.
(09:57):
I fled Delaware and came back toNew York for the day.
And I mean, just imagine this,right?
It's, I'm a college kid.
I have been a hip-hop baby fromconception, and it's the
greatest group of hip-hopnotables.
I'm talking executives, artists.
(10:17):
I'm meeting my favorite MCs fromBlack Thought to Rakim to
Wu-Tang to Tretch from Naughtyby Nature, Wyclef.
I mean, Run DMC, on and on andon, plus executives.
Jermaine Dupri, Russell Simmons.
I mean, it's just on and on andon.
Just like a waterboard of yourfavorite, you know, hip hop
(10:38):
notables of the culture,everybody who made up your
culture.
And I'm this impressionable, youknow, college kid.
And it's just one block.
So you're running into iconsevery turn, every step, east,
west, north, south.
And it was a beautiful day.
It was extremely stressful onthe staff because, I mean, you
know, it was all production andwrangling.
SPEAKER_01 (10:59):
And this is for people who aren't familiar.
It's a picture of all of theseartists, like over 170, I
believe, that were on the stepsof the same iconic picture by
Art Kane, where they arehonoring the greatest jazz
musicians.
But it's kind of the golden agewhere it's sort of ending.
But this was almost the birth ofright.
This is this is hip hop at itspinnacle.
(11:21):
And it is 1998.
SPEAKER_04 (11:24):
And being shot by Gordon Parks, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
And shot by the great Gordon Parks.
So I want to start there becausethat was such a moment to
reflect on how beautiful thattime was, even if you weren't
old enough to really appreciateit in the same way I was in high
school at the time.
But look at where we are now.
(11:47):
I think there's a critiquethat's happening everywhere.
And part of it has to do withthis trial.
And that's what I wanted toreally talk to you about because
you have someone like Sean Combsfacing up to life in prison.
But take us behind the scenes asyou see it when you look at some
of the things that we'rediscussing, some of the names
(12:10):
and details of alleged actions.
Offline, you and I talked andyou said based on sort of what
you even saw behind the scenes,some of it's not that shocking.
SPEAKER_04 (12:21):
No, you have to understand, you know, Sean Combs
is being accused of a lot ofpredatorial behavior, right?
And I don't think peopleunderstand just how predatorial
this music industry is.
You know, it's from contracts ondown to the way men interact
(12:42):
with women.
It's almost par for the course,you know?
And again, this is not to excuseanything that Puff or anybody
else has done.
But the nature, it was almostaccepted.
You know, in 1999, when we weretalking about the great day of
hip hop, you know, that was verymuch like my wet behind the
ears.
(13:03):
I was a little naive to theindustry.
You know, you hear about Q-Tiptalking about, you know,
industry rule number 4008.
You hear about this stuff andyou think it's just like some,
you know, some white guy in asuit trying to take advantage of
some poor black talented kid.
And it wasn't.
No, it's not that natural.
It's not that simple.
It was way more layered.
And the people within theculture were also complicit.
(13:26):
You had major executives, Blackexecutives, pioneering
executives who were, yes, weremavericks in giving reflection
to Black and Latino peoplethrough the music, through the
culture, but they were alsolearning the business.
And they were learning thebusiness from piranhas,
basically, essentially piranhas,folks who made a living on
(13:50):
taking advantage of talent.
And yes, you can throw in racein that, because I think race
always plays a part in anything,especially when you're talking
about America.
But the nature of the businessfor decades prior to hip hop was
always predatory, takingadvantage.
I mean, you can go back to thejazz days.
Um, and it just, it's not, it'snot just racial.
I mean, you know, you will have,you know, white on white, you
(14:12):
know, it's, it's the white execwill take advantage of the, you
know, Jewish guitar player.
You know what I'm saying?
Like if they have a hit recordor if they see they can make
something off of them.
And then when you, you add inthe genders and like
impressionable young women whoare talented, um, it just, it
runs the gamut, you know?
Um, so, you know, it's, it'sinteresting that everybody who's
(14:33):
focused on, Puff and hisbehaviors and all of that.
And it's like, it's way biggerthan just his relationship with
Cassie.
Like, where does he come from?
Where was he groomed?
You know, the nature of hisbusiness.
You know, it's almost likeyou're almost discouraged,
right, to move ethically in thisbusiness.
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
When you talk about where he came from, for those
who aren't familiar with hisbackstory, his relationship,
short-lived relationship withhis father, what sort of
Insight, can you give us topeople listening about how that
might play into some of whatwe're hearing in the courtroom?
SPEAKER_04 (15:11):
And again, I'm trying to stay away from.
From from a couch diagnosing,but, you know, you have to look
at the man.
Right.
And usually when the saying ishurt people, hurt people.
A lot of these these execs, youknow, they're not just born
predatory.
They are leaning intoinsecurities.
(15:32):
They were the music nerd whowasn't cool enough to be in a
band.
They're trying to find theirpower.
Russell Simmons, for one, he wasalways a hip hop kid and always
enterprising.
But he definitely had hisinsecurities.
He wasn't super cool.
(15:54):
And whether you believe the rapeallegations or whatever, you can
kind of understand how these menwho are looked at as villains
were kind of created, like theirbackstory, their origin story.
So with somebody like with Puff,didn't really know his father.
His father was a hustler,murdered in the streets.
(16:15):
But of course, he had to livewith the shadow of his father
for all these years.
Harlem is a very braggadocious,very confident sector of New
York.
They've always been flashy.
And they've been at the centerof the genesis of hip hop.
Those early grounds with therooftop clubs and, you know, the
(16:38):
fashion on 125th.
They were always kind of likeshaping things, you know, and
that's where and that's whatkind of inspired Uptown Records.
Uptown Records comes from Harlemin the Bronx.
Andre Harrell is from the Bronx.
But while like The B-boy culturewas mainly in the Bronx.
The club flash, the nightlife,that was all, as far as like
(16:58):
Black and Latino, very much kindof shaped.
The glitz of it all was shapedin Harlem.
So that's where Puff comes from.
So he was always, again, whenyou're from Harlem, you are
encouraged to be a peacock.
You have to have more.
You have to be the brightest,the flashiest.
And when you take that and youwed that within the music
(17:19):
industry, And then you have thisnew time where it's like you're
just seeing new money for thefirst time.
You're seeing new money for thepeople around you.
You're empowering people aroundyou.
You're empowering young women tobe in videos.
You're empowering young women tobe singers, background singers.
You're discovering the next iconlike a Mary Jane Blige.
I mean, that's a lot of powerfor one person.
(17:40):
It's a lot of power for somebodywho may not have dealt with
their own issues before theybecame a professional.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
You mentioned Andre Harrell, the founder of Uptown
Records, and how these twostories sort of come together
because Andre Harrell is avisionary in a different type of
way than what rap was and found,as you mentioned, sort of that
soulfulness to it, more of theR&B, but also music.
(18:10):
You know, this this new thingthat we were seeing, hip hop,
where it's like the rap, but thesoulful part of it.
How much of and you can discuss,you know, what you're
comfortable with in terms ofyour own knowledge,
relationship, knowing AndreHarrell.
But he was brought up, as youknow, during this trial when
Capricorn Clark claims she wentto CAA seeking employment.
(18:33):
And Andre Harrell and SeanCombs, she said, were trying to
encourage her not to file legalaction just because there had
been some issues before thatmoment.
SPEAKER_04 (18:43):
Yes.
I don't have a lot of backgroundknowledge on that.
I do know Sean Combs is like thenephew of Andre Harrell, very
much like a son.
There is no bad boy.
There's no total...
Mary J.
Blige and what's the 411.
(19:03):
There's no wedding of hip hopand R&B with Bad Boy without
Andre Harrell.
Andre Harrell was the one whoactually had a wider vision than
Russell Simmons.
Russell Simmons was very muchfocused on keeping hip hop pure.
You know, he's very rigid andconservative in that regard.
You know, he'd wanted just LLand hard beats and, you know,
(19:24):
you know, just nothing, nothingthat even kind of like trickled
over to R&B where Andre Harrellis like, well, I want the
culture.
We're not just all outsidebreakdancing on carboards.
We're flashy.
We're wearing silk shirts.
We're popping champagne inclubs.
We're wearing fine linen in thesummertime.
(19:45):
There's New Jack Swing.
While hip-hop is a part of whowe are, it's not the totality of
who we are.
And Andre Harrell had the visionto be like, no, well, If you're
not going to give me a lane,talking to Russell Simmons, if
you're not going to give me alane with Def Jam to explore the
full breadth of who we are, thenI'm going to explore my own
(20:07):
adventures.
And that's how Elton Recordswere birthed.
That's how we got Heavy D.
That's how we got Mary J.
Blige.
That's how we got Jodeci.
And under that, you know, underthat vision of R.J.
Rell, he saw a promising, doggedintern who...
was annoying and wouldn't takeno for an answer and would cut
school to be there and do thejob and was ready to live it.
(20:30):
And that young intern was SeanCombs.
SPEAKER_01 (20:34):
Going back to 98, the album No Way Out wins a
Grammy.
You know, Combs has had 14nominations.
He's won three in his lifetime.
Do you think at that time,again, starting with that image
of the greatest day, Do youthink because the music and the
(20:55):
industry was thriving and therewere so many people making money
off of this, it was stillsomewhat new and fresh.
There's this recognition that itis sort of this could be billion
dollar industry.
Is that part of the reason whypeople turned a blind eye to the
behavior?
Again, some of which is comingup in court.
SPEAKER_04 (21:17):
Yeah, I mean, it's a myriad of reasons why.
I mean, just like drug dealersare addicted to the game,
addicted to the hustle, it's thesame way within the music
industry.
It's the allure, it's thelights.
You know, again, we're talkingabout, and again, this is such a
layered conversation when we'retalking about Black and Latino
people.
You know, we normally don't havea lot.
(21:40):
You know, we are constantlytrying to not be seen, not have
our flaws be seen.
You know, we cover it up.
We overdo it.
We sometimes become ostentatiouswhen we get a little bit.
So we have a time where it's notjust about, you know, we can
make money here.
It's about power and recognitionand status.
You know, we are at theforefront of a new movement.
(22:02):
You know, we're talking 1998.
Hip hop is already, you know, 20something years old, but it's
very new as far as it just gotrich, basically.
It got rich.
By 1998, we've only been richfor three years.
Before 1995, we had Nas andWu-Tang and Method Man.
Those guys were wearing usedjeans and smoking blunts and
(22:30):
were barely groomed.
You know, like there weren't anystylists really on those videos.
When you look at like Wu-Tang,you know, those early protection
deck videos, those guys were,they came to the set dressed,
doing whatever they had at home,you know?
So, you know, now we turn withBad Boy.
And of course, this is whereSean Combs played an iconic
role.
1995, 1994, 95, 96, we startseeing a turnout.
(22:53):
Now it's high-end attire.
It's Versace shirts, silkshirts.
It's high-end budgets.
Hype Williams, who was anintern, for Video Music Box,
Ralph McDaniels and Video MusicBox, he's now, you know, the,
you know, he's kind of like thedirector of Scorsese of that
time.
You know, the bug eye, fish eyelens, the Missy videos and a
(23:14):
million dollar videos and BustaRhymes doing the coming to
America remake, put your handsin the air.
It's a whole new time.
So when you talk about, go backto a woman like Capricorn, she's
seeing like, she's like, oh,we're at This is a new era.
It's not just about money.
It's not just about standingnext to somebody who's powerful.
(23:36):
It's the entire lifestyle ispowerful.
It's that every magazine wantswhat you have.
Every artist, every person whothinks they have a little bit of
talent wants what you have.
Everybody's trying to smooth youbecause you're standing next to
one of the most powerful men inthe business.
You know, Puffy wasn't just apowerful black exec.
He was one of the most, if notthe most powerful black exec in
(23:58):
the game.
You know, he surpassed hismentors, Andre Harrell and
Russell Simmons.
He did.
So by 1998, he can do no wrong.
So you have men, you know, forlack of a better term, bending
over for this man.
Can you imagine the women?
You know, so yes, as far asexcusing behavior.
And again, it's not just this isnot just a Sean Combs thing.
(24:21):
This was accepted.
This was accepted.
It was women were complicit aswell, you know.
But men were awful and men whoweren't so awful were actually
encouraged to be awful.
That's how crazy it is.
If you were, again, discouragedto not be fair business-wise
because it was looked at as notbad business.
Good business was getting asmuch as you can and discarding
(24:44):
whatever wasn't, discarding anddisposing of whatever wasn't
used anymore or couldn't be usedanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
In terms of Combs being known as someone that was
very shrewd, you personally sortof understood that more recently
when you did an eight-partvisual podcast series in which
you were looking at thenotorious B.I.G.''s life and
legacy and sort of the thingsthat were happening around the
time of his death, who,
SPEAKER_04 (25:12):
if
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
you don't know, you should know by now, Combs was
incredibly influential in hisascent and vice versa.
I mean, I think the two playedoff of each other well, and it
was one of those relationshipswhere you saw you know, this
producer slash artist on equalfooting in an interesting way.
But in that project, yourealized how tough it was to
(25:38):
sort of work with that side ofhim as a businessman.
Not that you guys had like a lotof one-on-one interactions, but
talk about that experience.
SPEAKER_04 (25:46):
I mean, not just, not even just that.
I mean, that's my, probably mymost recent experience with
Sean, with the Biggie series,because I was...
years ago.
But yes, true businessman, buthe also, he really holds onto
his power and usually he almostdangles it.
(26:06):
He keeps your feet to the fire.
He keeps you tap dancing.
You're going to wait as long ashe wants you to wait.
If he doesn't have an immediateno, then it's going to be a
wait.
And I don't know if that's justbecause he's doing a million one
things or he actually takespleasure in Um, and having
people kind of like, you know,wait with bated breath for his
(26:26):
response.
Um, but he ultimately, he had uswaiting.
We, you know, I mean, I'm goingto get into the minutia of the
pre-production, but, you know,he eventually just like bailed
out on us.
Um, but that wasn't my firsttime.
My first interaction was workingwith Puff.
It was, um, we've, you know,we've tried to get him for XXL.
We worked with him at XXL and itwas always the same thing.
(26:47):
It was always, just what feltlike unnecessarily, you know,
waiting for him.
Him kind of like, almost feltlike taking pleasure almost and
having everybody, we can't movewithout him, you know.
But the source, my late greatReggie Osei interviewed him for
(27:08):
my second, my third cover whileI was at EIC there.
And it was just, I mean, we'retalking days waiting for him.
And not just like to do it justto do an interview, It was also
to do the interview and then wehad to have, he had to have
approval of what got printed andjust a complete, you know, I
can't, you know, I can't justdismiss it as easily as like, it
was just him just being a Devo,but it was somebody who just
(27:31):
knew he had the power and theworld was in his hands and it
was going, I mean, it's almostlike it's something you would go
through if you're, if you wantto interview a rock, you know,
it's going to be a lot of redtape and a lot of bleeding, you
know, and it's, you know, itcould be because, you know, he's
doing a lot or it's because, Hejust takes pleasure in having
everybody just kind of waitaround for him.
(27:52):
He's just not an easy person towork with.
As shrewd as he was as abusinessman, as good of a
businessman he was, I had a lotof friends who worked with him
and it was kind of similar.
Some almost psychologicaltorture.
But also...
(28:14):
But also a lot of like theartists complaining about
contracts.
That just seemed like to be theconsistent thing.
I mean, Mace talks about that tothis day.
It's the reason why he kind ofspeaks with him with such
disdain.
You know, it's interestingbecause you listen to Mace speak
about Sean and you listen toCassie on the stand.
And it seems like Mace may hatePuff more than Cassie does.
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
Well, remember, Cassie said she doesn't hate
him.
SPEAKER_04 (28:41):
Well, I would guess that Mace wants Bob to do more
time in prison than Cassidy.
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
Okay.
So with everything that we'vediscussed, Bonsu, how then are
we, and I know people have askedyou this question or you've had
these conversations, but how arewe as people who have been
influenced by Combs expected toreconcile with this man who you
know, versus the art and themusic and the question really
(29:09):
being, does the art belong tothe people?
I
SPEAKER_04 (29:13):
don't have any interest about reconciling with
Puff or the people reconcilingwith Puff.
He has to deal with his owndemons.
I do care about the people inthe culture.
And I've always, I've alwaysasked the question, you know,
once the art is out there forthe world, like, you know,
what's the ownership state?
Like, how is that broken up?
You know, are we attached to theauthor?
(29:36):
You know, I just think that, forinstance, you know, we have
think about the soundtrack toyour life.
Right.
I think about the soundtrack tomy life.
And if I have to go through likethe 20 songs that shaped me, a
good portion are going to beterrible men.
You know, a good portion aregoing to be people who dealt
(29:58):
with substance abuse and a goodportion of people who weren't
the greatest parents, you know.
And I just think that as asociety, we have to really stop
putting these people who do onegreat thing or a couple of great
things on a pedestal as a humanbeing.
Miles Davis, one of the greatestever musician, forget just jazz,
(30:18):
ever.
And he used to beat the shit outof Cicely Tyson, you know?
SPEAKER_01 (30:23):
And to the end of her life, what was so
interesting is she still spokehighly of that being like her
one true love.
Right.
So I think you're hittingsomething in terms of just like
a very toxic environment that alot of people maybe identify
with.
which is why the cycle keepsgoing.
And you have a number of casesyou could point to where
(30:44):
powerful people, men and women,using that power, not always in
the best way.
And what I hear that's missingfrom a lot of the conversation
too is any form ofGod-centeredness.
You know, it really is all aboutme, me, me, I, I, I, and what
can I do?
gather?
What can I accumulate in termsof resources?
SPEAKER_04 (31:06):
It's beyond just as simple as like doing the right
thing, right?
I think we have to look at, wehave a lot of artists who are
unhealed before they become whothey are professionally.
You know, R.
Kelly had trauma before hebecame, before he got a record
deal.
Michael Jackson had his owninternal trauma.
(31:26):
Prince had trauma at home.
Marvin Gaye trauma at home.
You know, we have to look atthese are unhealed artists.
And when you give an unhealedperson adoration, maybe love
they never had at home,especially a lot of money and
fame, it doesn't make them abetter person.
And it's not just music.
I mean, we can go to Hollywood,et cetera.
(31:48):
So again, looking back at, thereare people who dealt with their
stuff properly in a healthy way,like 100,000.
He had issues.
He had He had, you call it, likesocial anxiety, some form of
social anxiety.
And think about it, like to dealwith social anxiety while being
(32:09):
a multi-platinum artist, right?
To be a Grammy winning artist isa lot.
It's only just, it only makesyou play heavier, you know?
But he was able to channel histalent in a positive way and
still remain a contributor tosociety.
That doesn't always happen likethat.
And again, it's not just music,but especially music doesn't
always happen like that.
So you look at our grace, and ifthey don't harm other people,
(32:31):
what happens is they normallyharm themselves.
That's how we lost Prince.
That's how we lost MichaelJackson.
Rick James hurt people, hurthimself.
R.
Kelly was hurt, hurt otherpeople.
But my question is, do we flirtwith a dangerous precedent when
we start reappraising the valueof this music according to the
(32:53):
moral compass of the author?
You know, do we flirt with that?
Is it a dangerous precedent?
Because how deep does it go?
You know, if you think MichaelJackson was a pedophile, you
know, does that make StevieWonder complicit with a right
when he wrote, you know, can't Ican't help it?
Why can't I still love thatsong, even though Michael
singing it and Stevie wrote it?
(33:13):
I don't know.
Like, how does that work?
You know, if you if you lostyour virginity to an R.
Kelly song and it was abeautiful memory, are you
supposed to remember thatquietly or are you supposed to
remember that on mute?
How deep does that go?
SPEAKER_01 (33:28):
And I guess it depends on the person.
I think it comes down to alsosupporting things from a
monetary standpoint, because youcan know things about people or
any any travesty happeningaround the world and decide that
you're going to spend your moneyeither supporting something or
saying that's what that's whereI draw the line.
So last quick question, Bonsu.
(33:49):
Does Trump pardon Combs?
UNKNOWN (33:54):
No.
SPEAKER_04 (33:55):
Absolutely.
Are you kidding me?
Absolutely, Trump.
He's ready right now.
He's ready to put the kibosh onthis entire trial.
This is a man who has openlysaid he's grabbed vagina.
You know, he is.
And that's the thing.
It's just so funny about thisworld, right?
Because we're this cancelculture.
And it's like it's almost almostlike we want to cancel the wrong
(34:16):
people.
I don't know.
It's all we're being just like.
Really passive about it.
We want to cancel the people whoare easy to cancel.
Instead of the people whoabsolutely need to have their
faucet shut off.
So yes, I wholeheartedly believehe will party just to spite all
the women who feel like he's thedevil.
SPEAKER_01 (34:34):
Bonsu Thompson, writer, producer, screenwriter,
cultural critic.
Thank you so much for your time.
And if you haven't seen hismovie, Story Ave, go see it.
SPEAKER_04 (34:46):
Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
And one more thing.
I often find myself thinkingabout the families involved in
these cases.
In court, there were a few daysI sat behind Alex Fine, the
husband of Cassie Ventura, whorecently had a baby boy.
I often wondered what Fine wasthinking during Ventura's
testimony.
Well, he told us, through astatement, he said that he was
(35:11):
proud of his wife and gives herall the credit for having the
strength that it took to saveherself.
Then there is the Combs family.
Combs' mother, his sons, histwin daughters, a few of his
friends who have regularlyattended are consistently
gesturing love and sittingstoically through details of
alleged victims saying thatCombs beat, raped, and kidnapped
(35:35):
them.
How does one make sense of anyof this?
Combs in recent years referredto himself as love.
And when Ventura was asked ifshe hated Combs, she said, I
don't hate him.
I have love for the past andwhat it was.
I personally believe it is thelove from others that are
keeping families on all sidesstanding strong.
(35:57):
And love is supposed to alwaysprevail.
But this case is not about thatalone.
It's about justice decided by 12jurors, eight men and four women
who could have the final say onthe fate of Sean Diddy Combs.
I thank you so much forlistening.
Please follow me on Instagramand TikTok.
(36:20):
I am that reporter JD.
Again, I am that reporter JD.
DM me if you have any questionsand maybe we can address them on
the next one.
Until then, have a blessed day.
Hopefully we'll see you backhere once again.
(36:43):
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to help, please, please,
please spread the word.
Tell your friends, tell yourfamily, encourage them to
listen.
You can also follow Rate andReview on Apple Podcasts and
Spotify.
And just like Uber, five-starreviews are very much
appreciated.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.