CBS News Correspondent and CBS Weekend anchor Jericka Duncan was given the task of covering the the trial of Sean "Diddy" Combs. Her assignment puts her at the courthouse and in the courtroom every day of the trial so she has a front row seat to all of the action happening inside and outside of the courtroom.
First, Jericka discusses the case with CBS Legal Analyst, Katrina Kaufman. Katrina shares what happened in the courtroom in week 4, how each side is managing their case and the strength of the testimony from the prosecution's witnesses.
Then Jericka speaks with clinical psychologist Dr. Thema Bryant about the complexities of trauma and its impact on testimony in abuse cases. She notes that individuals respond to trauma differently, which can affect their emotional display during testimony. The discussion also covers the challenges survivors face in reporting abuse, the influence of power dynamics, and the cultural narratives that often blame victims. Dr. Bryant highlights the importance of understanding these factors for jurors and society at large, as well as the potential for healing and redemption for both survivors and offenders.
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Host: Jericka Duncan
Executive Producer/Editor: Scott Riggs
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
I believe all the survivors.
I believe the fact that thedefense is using a lot of
different tactics to discreditthem, and I think it's unfair.
I'm bouncing back and forth, butnow somewhere in the middle, and
we're going to see what goes onin the next couple of weeks.
SPEAKER_00 (00:17):
Just being inside the courtroom and seeing...
somebody's testimony that youthink oh wow yeah that happened
and she's telling the truth tothen that the next minute you
can be like wait is she lying
SPEAKER_03 (00:37):
It is anyone's guess how these jurors are feeling
thus far about the dozens ofwitnesses they've heard from
over the last four weeks.
And speaking of four, welcome tothe fourth episode of my
podcast, I Am That Reporter, TheDiddy Trial.
My name is Jerika Duncan, andI'm a CBS News national
correspondent and anchor of theCBS Weekend News.
(00:58):
I want to start off talkingabout the very important people
who could decide Combs' fate.
I say could because we now know,based on comments made by
President Trump last week, thata pardon is not off the table
for Combs.
But moving right along, I'mconstantly observing the body
language from the jury.
One person looks annoyed attimes, another tired, others
(01:20):
writing down informationquickly.
During a break, I noticed ajuror sort of cover his mouth
and speak to the juror next tohim.
And every once in a while, whentestimony drags on and an expert
takes a stand, I can see some ofthe jurors usually after lunch,
nodding off and struggling tostay awake.
But someone who noticed bodylanguage this week, the federal
(01:42):
judge, Arun Submaranian, hethreatened to remove Sean Combs
from the courtroom for noddingand making faces at members of
the jury.
He called Combs' actions, quote,absolutely unacceptable.
He noted this after thetestimony of Breonna Bongolin,
who also goes by Bonna.
Now, I was there in thecourtroom about 20 feet away
(02:04):
from Combs, and he was shakinghis head up and down a lot.
But keep in mind, the lecternwhere one of his attorneys,
Nicole Westmoreland in thiscase, was making her arguments
from is directly in front ofwhere the jurors sit.
So from my vantage point, it'shard to see if he was looking at
his attorney or directly at thejury.
Part of the reason I think Combswas more expressive than most
(02:27):
days on this particular day isbecause Westmoreland proved
Combs was not in the same stateas Bongolin on September 26,
2016, when Bongolin said Combsdangled her over Cassie
Ventura's 17-story apartmentbalcony and left bruises on
Bongolin's body.
Abangalan testified that theinjury she took cell phone
(02:48):
pictures of from September 26,2016 of her bandaged back and
bruised leg, that those picturesshown to the jury with the
metadata timestamp were fromCombs.
When that was revealed, it wasalmost like Combs was nodding to
say, see, she's not telling thetruth.
I wasn't even there exactly.
(03:09):
Either way, the judge did notlike it, so we expect to see
less of that as we enter intoweek five.
Today, we are going to speakwith clinical psychologist Dr.
Tama Bryant.
She will break down thetestimony of Mia, a former Sean
Combs employee who said she wassexually assaulted by Combs but
remained friends with him.
SPEAKER_04 (03:28):
The way she describes the situation, from
the beginning, he was framingher and threatening to present
it as consensual.
So this would be something shewould be embarrassed about.
The violation is something shewould be embarrassed about and
not want people to know becauseof the very judgment that we're
(03:50):
experiencing and also because ofwhat their relationship was
supposed to be in
SPEAKER_03 (03:56):
the house.
But before we get into thatconversation, a quick reminder.
Combs, of course, as you know,if you've been following this,
is facing five felony counts,which include racketeering,
conspiracy, two counts of sextrafficking by force, fraud or
coercion, and two counts oftransportation to engage in
prostitution.
According to the government,Combs abused, threatened and
(04:17):
coerced women and others aroundhim for decades to fulfill his
sexual desires, protect hisreputation and conceal his
conduct.
The government says Combs reliedon employees, resources and
influence from his multifacetedbusiness empire that he led and
controlled, creating a criminalenterprise whose members and
associates engaged in andattempted to engage in, among
(04:40):
other crimes, sex trafficking,forced labor, kidnapping, arson,
bribery, and obstruction ofjustice.
Combs has denied any wrongdoingand has pleaded not guilty to
all charges.
To give us a better sense ofwhat is happening on the legal
front, let's check in withpolitical reporter and CBS News
legal analyst Katrina Kaufmanand excuse some of the noise you
(05:02):
might hear.
I did do this interview in frontof the courthouse.
So Katrina, remind people ofwhat the government needs to
prove beyond a reasonable doubtto convict.
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
With racketeering, they have to show that Sean
Combs was guiding people whoworked for him that they were in
agreement to commit certaincriminal activity, and they have
to prove that there were atleast two underlying crimes.
Those could be kidnapping,arson, bribery, obstruction of
justice.
For sex trafficking, there areelements of force, fraud, and
(05:33):
coercion that they have to show,and that it was for a commercial
sex act.
And then with transportation forprostitution, they have to show
that there was the transportingfor the purpose of commercial
sex across state lines.
When it comes to Eddie
SPEAKER_03 (05:46):
Garcia's testimony, I thought he was very easy to
follow.
He says that he received$100,000in cash from Combs, basically in
exchange for a copy of theIntercontinental Hotel video of
Combs dragging and hittingCassie Ventura back in 2016,
which many people have seen bynow.
Describe the strategy of thedefense, because they spend a
lot of time showcasing this NDAthat Garcia signed and focused
(06:11):
on this kind of small languagethat basically said he doesn't
have to be quiet about this ifhe was asked questions by the
government.
But it seemed when I lookedaround the court, people seemed
a bit confused in terms of Whatis this mean and why are they
doing this?
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
They were trying to show that there was a clause in
the contract that would allowhim, if there was a valid court
order, to talk about what hadhappened.
But then on redirect, what thegovernment brought up is that
there was another part of that.
It said he had to give priornotice to Combs' company before
he did that.
So one that ties Combs' companyto this alleged bribery exchange
(06:49):
and potential instance ofobstruction of justice before he
could actually speak to lawenforcement about this.
SPEAKER_03 (06:56):
Let's talk about Breonna Bongolin.
It seems like her testimonyplayed big because of the
inconsistency.
And then there was this momentin court where we saw a document
that contradicts her testimony.
SPEAKER_01 (07:07):
Yes.
Combs' team brought up this billfrom the Trump International
Hotel and evidence that they sayshowed that he was not in Los
Angeles when Breonna Bongolinclaims that he dangled her over
a balcony.
In fact, he had a concert in NewJersey and he was staying at the
Trump International Hotel in NewYork.
And we From
SPEAKER_03 (07:25):
September 24th to the 29th, she testified that the
balcony incident happenedSeptember 26th.
I do have to make sure theprosecution then says, but wait
a minute.
Let me just be clear.
You don't know the exact date.
So they sort of wrap all of thatup by letting the jurors know,
well, wait a minute.
She may not have the date right,but she doesn't deny that this
(07:48):
thing happened to her.
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then they also brought in anew exhibit that showed that
there was a text from Cassie toChristina Coram.
That is Combs' former chief ofstaff and a close assistant of
his.
And in it, Cassie Ventura wassaying to Christina Coram that
he went at Bonna and choked herand dangled her feet off a
balcony and she said, I have tostay away.
This was sent on September 30thof 2016.
(08:12):
So it does corroborate Bonna'stestimony, but there were a lot
of holes, inconsistencies in thestory and the date of when this
actually happened.
And very quickly, because I knowyou have a
SPEAKER_03 (08:22):
quick live shot to do.
Jane's testimony sounds almostidentical to Cassie Ventura's,
where she talks about being inlove with Combs and being
charming and wanting to just bewith him.
But being put in this situation,she says in which she was forced
to have sex with men that shedidn't want to have sex with.
SPEAKER_01 (08:41):
Yeah, it's almost like we're hearing Cassie's
testimony echoed, except forthis time they called them hotel
nights.
But we're hearing more about howshe was brought to different
states and places to Turks andCaicos.
He paid for her commercialflights.
There's very strong evidence ofthis transportation for the
purpose of prostitution chargehere.
Also, in terms of sextrafficking, she talked about
(09:03):
how she really didn't want toparticipate in these nights, how
she tried to tell calm know.
She tried to stop them.
Very, very similar testimonyfrom what we've heard from
Cassie.
SPEAKER_03 (09:14):
So Katrina, if you could predict, if the jury had
to deliberate today, what
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
do you think would
SPEAKER_03 (09:20):
happen?
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
I mean, I would say in a lot of ways, Vonna was
maybe a stronger witness for thedefense almost.
She was, there were so manyholes in that story.
The prosecution did bring itback.
And this is again, just
SPEAKER_03 (09:31):
reminding the listeners, the woman who said it
happened on September 26th, thebalcony incident, but then later
we saw documents that sort ofcontradicts that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
Yeah, one almost wonders why the prosecution even
brought her in as a witness,because she doesn't seem crucial
to this case, and there were somany inconsistencies.
But there is a lot of strongevidence between Cassie Ventura
and this woman.
Hold on, let the bus go by.
Gotta let that nat sound go.
So much traffic out here,people.
And this witness, Jane, of thesefreak-offs, these hotel nights,
(10:04):
of these women who aretestifying that they felt forced
into sex by Sean Combs.
But one thing I noted, too, wasat first Jane said that she
thought she was just engaging insomething that was sort of
taboo.
And she sort of enjoyed thisfirst sexual experience she had
with Sean Combs and another man.
And I noticed Combs noddingduring this, kind of looking
towards the jury.
(10:24):
He kept checking in with them.
So at first it was something,you know, she was interested in
trying to make him happy.
But as it continued, same withCassie.
She said that she kept trying tostop it.
Well, we will see what
SPEAKER_03 (10:34):
happens as we enter.
Can you believe it's going to beweek five?
Week five of the Sean Combsfederal trial.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Jerika.
Again, that was politicalreporter and CBS News legal
analyst Katrina Kaufman.
(11:00):
As I mentioned earlier, I wantto delve into the testimony of
Mia.
She goes by this pseudonym incourt to protect her identity.
And just to give you a sense ofher, she was very soft-spoken.
She kept her head down, and eventhe court artists were not
allowed to draw her face.
So if you look at any of thesketches, it just is a face and
you see hair, but there's nodistinct features.
(11:23):
Now, she says she worked forCombs from 2009 to 2017 as his
personal assistant.
She testified that Combssexually assaulted her first in
2009, and then she says inaround or about 2009 or 2010, he
raped her.
When she was fired in 2017, Miasays she did obtain a lawyer
with the intent to sue Combs for$10 million, but settled for
(11:46):
$400,000 in mediation.
She told jurors that hertestimony in this case is not
about seeking money or fame, butshe felt it was her moral
obligation to speak up.
To help us understand thecomplex nature of this testimony
is clinical psychologist, Dr.
Tama Bryant.
Dr.
Bryant, thank you so much forjoining us today.
SPEAKER_04 (12:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_03 (12:09):
So when I think about this case, we know how
important the jurors are.
And just to start off, what aresome of the things that jurors
should really consider Whendealing with this testimony from
people who say that they werepsychologically, sexually, or
even physically abused by Combs,what are some of those key
things that these jurors shouldkeep front of mind?
SPEAKER_04 (12:33):
Well, the first thing I want for jurors to think
about and potential futurejurors to consider is that we
all respond to traumadifferently.
And so you may see one witnessshowing distress with
tearfulness and another witnesswho feels very contained, might
even seem like to bedisconnected from their
(12:54):
emotions.
And so to not judge the displayas the determination of if they
are valid in what they're sayingmight By personality, by
culture, by gender, by lifeexperience, we all learn to
sometimes mute our distress.
And if we feel more safe orcomfortable or overwhelmed, we
(13:16):
may show it more.
So when trauma has happened overan extended time, there are
first three major categories ofdistress that we can see.
One is a disruption in people'sidentity, the ways they think
about themselves.
So the person may seem like theylack confidence.
(13:37):
They may seem insecure.
They may carry or display a lotof shame, embarrassment, feeling
humiliated by what they haveexperienced.
We also see people havingdifficulty regulating their
emotions.
So that just means that I mightseem very calm and contained one
moment and then suddenly becomevery tearful.
(13:59):
So we want to be mindful of theways in which that trauma can
just overwhelm our capacity tocope.
And then a third category isdifficulty trusting new people.
So you can develop ahypervigilance, become very
guarded.
And you may have also, alongwith having trouble trusting
(14:22):
others, you may have troubletrusting yourself because maybe
you thought this person was agood person.
And so then if they mistreatyou, then you can start to doubt
your ability to read people orto predict what is safe and what
is not safe.
Many people who experiencetrauma can develop
(14:43):
post-traumatic stress disorder.
So they might start avoidingthings that remind them of the
trauma.
They might have intrusivethoughts, which means they think
about it even when they don'twant to think about it.
And again, that hypervigilance.
We might also have depressionwhere nothing is real enjoyable
anymore, where they lack energyand motivation.
(15:07):
Some people might engage inself-destructive behaviors and
also anxiety.
SPEAKER_03 (15:14):
And some of that we have heard from the testimony of
Mia and others.
Mia talked about not being ableto get back into the workforce
in the same way and beingparanoid.
I want to touch on something yousaid in reference to, you know,
Sometimes it not surfacing interms of what people are feeling
(15:35):
or how they're dealing with ituntil much later.
Because with Mia's story, whenyou hear that she says she was
raped in around 2009 or 2010, sothis is the beginning of working
with Combs, and then worked withhim until 2017.
And we'll get to some otherthings that happened later, even
(15:55):
after that time period.
But when you hear that, forpeople that don't understand,
how surprising is it for you asa clinical psychologist to hear
that someone stayed working withsomeone for so long, even after
they were sexually assaulted bythem, according to Mia?
SPEAKER_04 (16:15):
Yes.
Unfortunately, it is quitesurprising.
I want to say quite common forsome people as a way of
surviving.
So one way of thinking about itis for a certain group of
people, they may try to convincethemselves that it was a
misunderstanding or the personwas drunk or high, that somehow
(16:40):
they didn't mean it.
And if I can convince myselfthat this person was is a good
person, or this person does careabout me, or this person will be
kind to me.
Because often in thesesituations, the person doesn't
act like a monster every day,all day.
So then there may be momentswhere they're acting like, you
(17:00):
know, you all have this greatworking relationship, or, you
know, they confide in you inparticular ways.
And so sometimes people arehoping it will be a corrective
experience, meaning that if I amaround them this time, it won't
happen again or that they'll besorry or they may regret it or
(17:22):
things will go back to the waythey were before the violation.
So that hope for a differentoutcome can cause a person to
try to pretend like it didn'thappen.
They may also be taking the cuesof the person who did the
offensive behavior, who was alsopretending nothing happened.
(17:45):
I want to also name the issue offear.
There can be the recognition, ifwe consider it an abusive
relationship, even though it'san abusive work relationship,
often when you are trying toexit or escape, people escalate
in their violence or in theirattempt to control you.
(18:06):
So there can be this desire tocommunicate to the person, like,
I'm not mad, everything's okay,as a mechanism or a tool to
protect yourself.
That if I don't complain and wejust go back to the way things
were before, I'm less likely tobe harmed.
SPEAKER_03 (18:26):
So I want to read you some of the excerpts from
court.
This is when the defenseattorney, Brian Steele, is
questioning Mia about why shecontinues to keep in touch with
her alleged abuser.
The defense says, and can youread to the jury what you wrote
to Mr.
Combs?
Mia says, just thinking of youtoday and every day.
(18:46):
Also, no lie.
Last night I had a nightmare.
I was trapped in an elevatorwith R.
Kelly and I screamed for you andyou came to rescue me.
So thank you for that too.
Sending you love.
The defense.
Now at that time, it's 2019, andyou wrote that you had a
nightmare concerning the person,the artist known as R.
(19:06):
Kelly, right?
Mia says yes.
The defense.
And the person who sexuallyassaulted you in your dream, or
nightmare rather, came to yourrescue?
That's what you wrote?
Mia says yes.
The defense says.
And you not only had the visionin your mind, but then you
express it to Mr.
Combs?
Mia says yes.
The defense.
(19:27):
So the person who you told theladies and gentlemen of the jury
terrorized you and caused youPTSD, you wrote to that person
and explained how that personsaved you from the other person
named there, right?
Then the prosecutor says,objection, which is sustained.
How common is that behavior whensomeone who says they were
abused, keep in touch, keep aconnection with the person who
(19:51):
allegedly hurt them?
SPEAKER_04 (19:52):
So in this example, what it makes me think about is
people who are trying to appealto a person's, let's say, higher
good, meaning that there aresome people, this is like the
subtext of what she's saying.
There are some people who aremonsters and you're not a
(20:15):
monster, meaning or you couldchoose not to be.
And so if I can convince myselfand if I can get the
confirmation from you that givena dangerous situation, you would
intervene and protect me, thenit helps the survivor to
re-narrate the story, the storyof what has actually happened to
(20:38):
think, oh, yes, like all theseyears of my life haven't been
wasted, that I wasn't totallywrong in my read of this person,
that there were these blips onthe screen where bad things
happen, but in general, thisperson wants something good for
me.
This person desires a goodoutcome.
(21:00):
This person would help me if Iwas in danger.
So this hunger to believe thatthe worst of what you have
experienced is not the truth ofhow they see you.
So sometimes for survivors, as Isaid, there is a disruption in
your sense of yourself.
(21:20):
So you're looking for thisoutside validation.
So what more freeing than tohave the person who I think did
not see my humanity to now tellme, not only do they see me, but
they would rescue me.
So that's what she's seeking inthis interaction for the one who
(21:40):
harmed her to now provide somehealing by saying you're worthy
of protection.
SPEAKER_03 (21:48):
There's another excerpt that I want to pull from
from Mia's testimony.
This is in reference to theproof, I guess, that she was
assaulted and the amount of timethat went by in reference to not
putting it on record somewhere.
The defense says, do you haveanything where you
(22:10):
contemporaneously wrote to afriend, a family member, police
officer, anybody, and said, thisis what's going on, I'm being
assaulted, berated, anything?
Mia, no.
The only time I reached out forhelp was very subtly to people
in the office, but notdisclosing things that other
people hadn't witnessed.
(22:32):
No, I would never.
Now, in the case of Ventura,we've heard testimony from
others who have seen the markson her body after she says comb
hit her.
Ventura even emailed her motherat one point and copied an
assistant.
So do you find a lot of peopledon't speak about the violence
or make some sort of notessomewhere in case they need it
(22:53):
as proof for later?
I
SPEAKER_04 (22:55):
find that most people are not thinking about
gathering evidence.
They're just thinking abouttrying to survive another day,
trying to get through it.
And if we wonder why peopledon't talk about it, all you
have to do is look on socialmedia on what people are saying
now.
Even if you report immediately,it's not like the community or
(23:18):
society rallies around you youcould say that it happened the
very next morning and you wouldstill have a large number of
people saying you're a liar,you're out to get money, judging
you, dismissing you, degradingyou.
So we have not, as a society,created a culture that would be
(23:38):
welcoming or inviting for peopleto feel they will be believed
and supported.
So that's one piece.
A second piece is, if you're notsure that you're going to leave
the job, then you would befearful to tell certain people
because their immediate piecewould be like, you need to go to
(24:02):
the police or you need to go tothe media or you need to get out
of there.
And so if you're not certainthat you can do that for a
number of reasons, then youwould not go and speak to those
persons.
Also, This case in particularhas a high level of surveillance
(24:22):
and disparity in power.
So with the level of power andsurveillance and monitoring he
had, people would understandablyand justifiably be very anxious
about telling anyone ordocumenting anything.
Because if you tell, she knewshe was sent to be a spy, right?
(24:45):
she was sent to be a part of thesurveillance.
So it would not be far-fetchedto think there are people
watching me, or if people findout I have talked to someone,
then I could be brutalized.
So most people are not actuallygathering evidence.
They're trying to think of howto make it stop or how to endure
(25:07):
it, or at the most, how toescape.
SPEAKER_03 (25:10):
According to the defense, Mia met with
prosecutors a total of 28 timesand she did not disclose the
sexual abuse until June 18th of2024.
I've had a lot of people on myInstagram posts ask me why did
she wait so long and have evenclaimed that this sounds like
someone who is piling on inhopes of getting money.
(25:33):
Can you address that?
SPEAKER_04 (25:34):
Yes.
So the way she describes thesituation from the beginning is
he was framing her andthreatening to present it as
consensual.
So this would be something shewould be embarrassed about.
The violation is something shewould be embarrassed about and
(25:55):
not want people to know becauseof the very judgment that we're
experiencing and also because ofwhat their relationship was
supposed to be in the house.
So even for me as a therapist,some people will more quickly
share if there has been physicalabuse in a relationship.
(26:17):
But I often have to ask a veryexplicit question as it relates
to the sexual violence.
And we have to have thetherapeutic relationship for
people to start talking aboutthat part of it because of the
high level of victim blaming,especially when the offender is
known to you.
(26:37):
When people are usuallybelieving and supportive, as if
it's a stranger, right?
That you got attacked by astranger in an alley.
Then people are like, well,yeah, that wasn't your fault.
But in most cases, it's peopleyou know, right?
Exactly.
Which means in most cases, we'renot believed.
In most cases, it is notbelieved.
(26:58):
And so that's why a person wouldbe hesitant to share that either
you're going to believe thispowerful person or presenting it
as consensual.
And I will say, in a courtsituation, they will often say
it's inconclusive.
If it's their word against yourword and you don't have physical
(27:19):
evidence, then usually there'snot going to be a conviction.
So the idea that one, I'm notlikely going to be believed by
the larger society.
And two, this person with a lotof power is going to present it
as if I was consenting.
SPEAKER_03 (27:37):
Now, it was important for the jurors to hear
when an expert on sexual abuseand assault was brought in early
on in this trial, for her toacknowledge, you know, I have
not looked at medical records ofCassie Ventura.
I have not looked at medicalrecords of, you know, Capricorn
Clark or some of these peoplethat have played big in terms of
witnesses.
So, When you think aboutwitnesses who have not had
(28:03):
someone, specifically an expert,look at their medical records or
treated them in any way,testifying to sort of the
generalizations, help peopleunderstand, too, who will go,
well, any type of psychologistwill make an excuse for someone
and their behavior.
They'll find any way to say, oh,well, it was this and what they
meant to do or what they'retrying to say.
(28:25):
I feel like in a lot of thesecases, because there's so much
judgment that goes out beforeyou even hear what someone has
to say, and then of course youhear what they have to say, and
because maybe you wouldn't haveresponded in that way, it's hard
to fathom that somebody wouldput themselves, quote, in a
situation where these thingsmight occur.
But for those who will look atthese stories and listen to them
(28:47):
and think there's no way he didthis, or why would you put
yourself in that situation, isthe first step, Just hearing
people out and then assessing,as even a clinical psychologist,
the truth, where the truth lies.
SPEAKER_04 (29:02):
I would encourage people to reflect on their own
tendencies to put victims ontrial instead of accused
offenders.
So in other words, some peoplelisten to the story, and as you
have said, before the person haseven shared their story, have
already decided, based ontalent...
(29:25):
that they like him, they likehis music, so because he is
gifted, he must be innocent.
So in psychology, we call that ahalo effect, where if you have
one positive attribute, thenpeople can overgeneralize and
think they know you.
Like, because you're great invideos, then I'm going to make
(29:45):
an assumption that you wouldnever do something terrible.
So instead of wondering why,would she stay for us to think
about why would someone withpower abuse it?
Why would someone violatesomeone who works for them?
(30:09):
Why would someone threaten andengage in violent behavior?
So those who are quick tobelieve that people must be
lying I encourage you torecognize that sexual assault is
actually underreported.
(30:31):
So the idea people have is allthese people are crying rape to
get attention and money.
People are not treated well whenthey say they have been sexually
assaulted.
They don't get a parade.
They don't get wonderfultreatment that would warrant
just making up stories.
(30:53):
What we have more often ispeople not coming forward,
people not trusting the policeor not feeling comfortable with
the court system, or if it'ssomeone within your own
community, not wanting to engagein these criminal systems.
So we can think about as asociety or even as an
(31:17):
individual, The way I'm writingin a post and the way I'm
talking about this, if I do knowsomeone who's been assaulted,
what have I said or done thathas created an atmosphere for
that person to feel comfortabletelling me?
So people say these shaming,blaming things and then wonder
(31:41):
why their own daughters orsisters have never confided in
them.
when they have already revealedthat they will not believe them.
SPEAKER_03 (31:54):
What has this case done for people around the
country?
What are clients telling you?
Because I know having coveredthe Me Too movement and some of
the big celebrities that we werefocused on at that time, be it
Harvey Weinstein or JeffreyEpstein, there was a group of
folks, you know, everydayAmericans, if you will, who I
(32:16):
remember hearing from that weretriggered by the different
cases.
So how do you think this sort ofshapes the narrative once again,
because it's so well-known andpeople are talking about this
particular trial throughout thecountry and around the world?
SPEAKER_04 (32:34):
Yes.
So it can be very triggeringbecause especially if we're on
social media or just watchingthe news, the story comes up.
And it doesn't just come up ingeneralities.
It comes up very specific, verygraphic details, which can be
(32:54):
overwhelming to hear, especiallyif it pulls up people's own
memories.
But I will also say some peoplefeel empowered of seeing that
even after, you know, if webelieve what is being reported,
that even after years of abuse,or years of misuse that you can
(33:17):
claim your voice again, that youcould find love or relationship
or a healthy dynamic in theaftermath.
And that even when the person isvery powerful and has done very
abusive things that your storydoesn't have to end there.
(33:38):
And so while it can betriggering, There are also
people who are cheering for thesurvivors and seeing a part of
them in the stories that arebeing told.
SPEAKER_03 (33:52):
Is there redemption ever for people who are accused
of such horrible crimes?
You know, beating up someone,raping someone.
I feel like psychological abuseis far too prevalent in just
about any relationship.
And sometimes you even need tocall it out within yourself to
(34:12):
change the behavior.
But is there redemption?
So I
SPEAKER_04 (34:18):
would say there's the issue of systemic justice or
redemption and then like thepersonal or the psychological
piece of that.
So what I mean is if he is notconvicted, it won't cause a lot
(34:39):
of people to, I think peoplewill dig into what they already
believe.
So people who have alwaysthought he was innocent will
say, see, we told you, you know,another brother set up by these
liars.
For people who believe he didit, they will say another
(35:00):
example of the system failingwomen the system bending down to
power.
And there have already beentalks about the president of the
United States directly beingasked, would he intervene if
there is a conviction?
So there can be a heightenedsense of hopelessness,
(35:20):
powerlessness, and not feelingprotected.
So that is...
You know, often the case forpeople who come forward, you
know, a smaller percentage get aconviction, a smaller
percentage, you know, isactually ending up doing time.
But then in terms of personalredemption, I would like to say,
(35:44):
you know, if the question is, istransformation possible?
It is, you know, yeah.
Harming people, hurting people,mistreating people, even
assaulting people is a choice.
It is a series of decisions.
And so I would encourage anyonewho has ever violated someone or
(36:10):
been verbally abusive to know atany moment, I can make another
choice.
At any moment, I can get helpand choose to show up
differently for myself and forthe people that I claim to love.
SPEAKER_03 (36:26):
How important is forgiveness in all of this?
I was on the airplane becauseI'm in LA right now doing this
podcast and I watched the movieExhibiting Forgiveness.
And if you haven't seen it, it'sa touching story about just how
hard it is, especially for thosewho, again, feel as though
they've been harmed by someoneimportant to them.
(36:49):
Don't want to give away themovie in case you want to check
it out.
But it really forces you to godeep.
And I think when you hear someof the testimony, you wonder how
that sort of healing journey isgoing realistically.
Because for Cassie Ventura, forinstance, she says, I don't hate
combs.
(37:10):
You know, I like what we had interms of the good things.
But she has clearly moved on.
She's married now, threechildren.
But how important is thatelement in this case?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_04 (37:24):
I wanna say that systems, society, religion,
culture often presses victims toforgive, but never emphasizes
accountability or changebehavior.
The onus is put on victims tofirst prove that something
(37:48):
happened to them.
And then even once it's proved,that's usually the question.
Even when we look at collectivetrauma or shooting of unarmed
persons, there's often thismessaging to the community, we
need to forgive and just moveforward.
So we really want to interrogateour tendency to tell people who
(38:18):
didn't have power that they needto get over it.
And those who abuse their power,that we just need to turn the
page and pretend it didn'thappen.
So I would encourage people toseparate forgiveness from
reconciliation.
So I may choose to forgivesomeone who is or isn't sorry.
(38:41):
I may choose to release that sothat I'm not carrying the
emotional burden psychologicalweight of that.
But in order for there to bereconciliation, there has to be
a transformation.
Sometimes people are forgivingpersons, as may have been
happening in this case, whoaren't sorry and who continue to
(39:05):
harm you.
So that's a very dangeroussituation.
And it's a dangerous message totell people just keep forgiving.
Meanwhile, the violence isescalating.
So I would say for realreconciliation, we can put a
pause on what's the path forvictims to take you back and put
(39:27):
a focus on what is theresponsibility of those who have
done harm to make it right.
SPEAKER_03 (39:36):
Well said.
Dr.
Tama Bryant, everyone, we thankyou so much for guiding us
through that conversation.
For more on Dr.
Tama, you can check out theHomecoming podcast and her
latest book, Matters of theHeart, Healing Relationships
with Yourself and Those YouLove.
Thank you, Dr.
Bryant.
Thank you so much for having me.
And one more thing.
(39:57):
A lot of people are asking meabout this trial, about who I
believe, what I think will bethe outcome.
And with any case, I am allabout leaving it in the hands of
the jury.
For those who are tired ofhearing about Combs at this
point or wondering why thecoverage is so nonstop, if you
(40:18):
will, on a lot of platforms, Ichallenge you to look at the
layers involved and also thinkabout this person that so many
people have gotten to know overthe course of 20, 25 years.
I do want to say thank you toall of you who've been concerned
about my own mental health andcovering this, but it has been a
talker and it's something thatclearly it seems everyone is
(40:42):
talking about, including my11-year-old daughter who told me
that some of her friends arefollowing this case.
And I have to remind her she isnot to follow this case.
It's a lot.
It's heavy and it's definitelynot for children.
I thank you so much forlistening.
Please follow me on Instagramand TikTok.
I am that reporter JD.
(41:04):
Again, I am that reporter JD.
DM me if you have any questionsand maybe we can address them on
the next one.
Until then, have a blessed day.
Hopefully we'll see you backhere once again.
(41:24):
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to help, please, please,
please spread the word.
Tell your friends, tell yourfamily, encourage them to
listen.
You can also follow Rate andReview on Apple Podcasts and
Spotify.
And just like Uber, five-starreviews are very much
appreciated.
I believe all the survivors.
I believe the fact that thedefense is using a lot of
different tactics to discreditthem, and I think it's unfair.
I'm bouncing back and forth, butnow somewhere in the middle, and
we're going to see what goes onin the next couple of weeks.
SPEAKER_00 (00:17):
Just being inside the courtroom and seeing...
somebody's testimony that youthink oh wow yeah that happened
and she's telling the truth tothen that the next minute you
can be like wait is she lying
SPEAKER_03 (00:37):
It is anyone's guess how these jurors are feeling
thus far about the dozens ofwitnesses they've heard from
over the last four weeks.
And speaking of four, welcome tothe fourth episode of my
podcast, I Am That Reporter, TheDiddy Trial.
My name is Jerika Duncan, andI'm a CBS News national
correspondent and anchor of theCBS Weekend News.
(00:58):
I want to start off talkingabout the very important people
who could decide Combs' fate.
I say could because we now know,based on comments made by
President Trump last week, thata pardon is not off the table
for Combs.
But moving right along, I'mconstantly observing the body
language from the jury.
One person looks annoyed attimes, another tired, others
(01:20):
writing down informationquickly.
During a break, I noticed ajuror sort of cover his mouth
and speak to the juror next tohim.
And every once in a while, whentestimony drags on and an expert
takes a stand, I can see some ofthe jurors usually after lunch,
nodding off and struggling tostay awake.
But someone who noticed bodylanguage this week, the federal
(01:42):
judge, Arun Submaranian, hethreatened to remove Sean Combs
from the courtroom for noddingand making faces at members of
the jury.
He called Combs' actions, quote,absolutely unacceptable.
He noted this after thetestimony of Breonna Bongolin,
who also goes by Bonna.
Now, I was there in thecourtroom about 20 feet away
(02:04):
from Combs, and he was shakinghis head up and down a lot.
But keep in mind, the lecternwhere one of his attorneys,
Nicole Westmoreland in thiscase, was making her arguments
from is directly in front ofwhere the jurors sit.
So from my vantage point, it'shard to see if he was looking at
his attorney or directly at thejury.
Part of the reason I think Combswas more expressive than most
(02:27):
days on this particular day isbecause Westmoreland proved
Combs was not in the same stateas Bongolin on September 26,
2016, when Bongolin said Combsdangled her over Cassie
Ventura's 17-story apartmentbalcony and left bruises on
Bongolin's body.
Abangalan testified that theinjury she took cell phone
(02:48):
pictures of from September 26,2016 of her bandaged back and
bruised leg, that those picturesshown to the jury with the
metadata timestamp were fromCombs.
When that was revealed, it wasalmost like Combs was nodding to
say, see, she's not telling thetruth.
I wasn't even there exactly.
(03:09):
Either way, the judge did notlike it, so we expect to see
less of that as we enter intoweek five.
Today, we are going to speakwith clinical psychologist Dr.
Tama Bryant.
She will break down thetestimony of Mia, a former Sean
Combs employee who said she wassexually assaulted by Combs but
remained friends with him.
SPEAKER_04 (03:28):
The way she describes the situation, from
the beginning, he was framingher and threatening to present
it as consensual.
So this would be something shewould be embarrassed about.
The violation is something shewould be embarrassed about and
not want people to know becauseof the very judgment that we're
(03:50):
experiencing and also because ofwhat their relationship was
supposed to be in
SPEAKER_03 (03:56):
the house.
But before we get into thatconversation, a quick reminder.
Combs, of course, as you know,if you've been following this,
is facing five felony counts,which include racketeering,
conspiracy, two counts of sextrafficking by force, fraud or
coercion, and two counts oftransportation to engage in
prostitution.
According to the government,Combs abused, threatened and
(04:17):
coerced women and others aroundhim for decades to fulfill his
sexual desires, protect hisreputation and conceal his
conduct.
The government says Combs reliedon employees, resources and
influence from his multifacetedbusiness empire that he led and
controlled, creating a criminalenterprise whose members and
associates engaged in andattempted to engage in, among
(04:40):
other crimes, sex trafficking,forced labor, kidnapping, arson,
bribery, and obstruction ofjustice.
Combs has denied any wrongdoingand has pleaded not guilty to
all charges.
To give us a better sense ofwhat is happening on the legal
front, let's check in withpolitical reporter and CBS News
legal analyst Katrina Kaufmanand excuse some of the noise you
(05:02):
might hear.
I did do this interview in frontof the courthouse.
So Katrina, remind people ofwhat the government needs to
prove beyond a reasonable doubtto convict.
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
With racketeering, they have to show that Sean
Combs was guiding people whoworked for him that they were in
agreement to commit certaincriminal activity, and they have
to prove that there were atleast two underlying crimes.
Those could be kidnapping,arson, bribery, obstruction of
justice.
For sex trafficking, there areelements of force, fraud, and
(05:33):
coercion that they have to show,and that it was for a commercial
sex act.
And then with transportation forprostitution, they have to show
that there was the transportingfor the purpose of commercial
sex across state lines.
When it comes to Eddie
SPEAKER_03 (05:46):
Garcia's testimony, I thought he was very easy to
follow.
He says that he received$100,000in cash from Combs, basically in
exchange for a copy of theIntercontinental Hotel video of
Combs dragging and hittingCassie Ventura back in 2016,
which many people have seen bynow.
Describe the strategy of thedefense, because they spend a
lot of time showcasing this NDAthat Garcia signed and focused
(06:11):
on this kind of small languagethat basically said he doesn't
have to be quiet about this ifhe was asked questions by the
government.
But it seemed when I lookedaround the court, people seemed
a bit confused in terms of Whatis this mean and why are they
doing this?
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
They were trying to show that there was a clause in
the contract that would allowhim, if there was a valid court
order, to talk about what hadhappened.
But then on redirect, what thegovernment brought up is that
there was another part of that.
It said he had to give priornotice to Combs' company before
he did that.
So one that ties Combs' companyto this alleged bribery exchange
(06:49):
and potential instance ofobstruction of justice before he
could actually speak to lawenforcement about this.
SPEAKER_03 (06:56):
Let's talk about Breonna Bongolin.
It seems like her testimonyplayed big because of the
inconsistency.
And then there was this momentin court where we saw a document
that contradicts her testimony.
SPEAKER_01 (07:07):
Yes.
Combs' team brought up this billfrom the Trump International
Hotel and evidence that they sayshowed that he was not in Los
Angeles when Breonna Bongolinclaims that he dangled her over
a balcony.
In fact, he had a concert in NewJersey and he was staying at the
Trump International Hotel in NewYork.
And we From
SPEAKER_03 (07:25):
September 24th to the 29th, she testified that the
balcony incident happenedSeptember 26th.
I do have to make sure theprosecution then says, but wait
a minute.
Let me just be clear.
You don't know the exact date.
So they sort of wrap all of thatup by letting the jurors know,
well, wait a minute.
She may not have the date right,but she doesn't deny that this
(07:48):
thing happened to her.
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then they also brought in anew exhibit that showed that
there was a text from Cassie toChristina Coram.
That is Combs' former chief ofstaff and a close assistant of
his.
And in it, Cassie Ventura wassaying to Christina Coram that
he went at Bonna and choked herand dangled her feet off a
balcony and she said, I have tostay away.
This was sent on September 30thof 2016.
(08:12):
So it does corroborate Bonna'stestimony, but there were a lot
of holes, inconsistencies in thestory and the date of when this
actually happened.
And very quickly, because I knowyou have a
SPEAKER_03 (08:22):
quick live shot to do.
Jane's testimony sounds almostidentical to Cassie Ventura's,
where she talks about being inlove with Combs and being
charming and wanting to just bewith him.
But being put in this situation,she says in which she was forced
to have sex with men that shedidn't want to have sex with.
SPEAKER_01 (08:41):
Yeah, it's almost like we're hearing Cassie's
testimony echoed, except forthis time they called them hotel
nights.
But we're hearing more about howshe was brought to different
states and places to Turks andCaicos.
He paid for her commercialflights.
There's very strong evidence ofthis transportation for the
purpose of prostitution chargehere.
Also, in terms of sextrafficking, she talked about
(09:03):
how she really didn't want toparticipate in these nights, how
she tried to tell calm know.
She tried to stop them.
Very, very similar testimonyfrom what we've heard from
Cassie.
SPEAKER_03 (09:14):
So Katrina, if you could predict, if the jury had
to deliberate today, what
SPEAKER_01 (09:19):
do you think would
SPEAKER_03 (09:20):
happen?
SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
I mean, I would say in a lot of ways, Vonna was
maybe a stronger witness for thedefense almost.
She was, there were so manyholes in that story.
The prosecution did bring itback.
And this is again, just
SPEAKER_03 (09:31):
reminding the listeners, the woman who said it
happened on September 26th, thebalcony incident, but then later
we saw documents that sort ofcontradicts that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
Yeah, one almost wonders why the prosecution even
brought her in as a witness,because she doesn't seem crucial
to this case, and there were somany inconsistencies.
But there is a lot of strongevidence between Cassie Ventura
and this woman.
Hold on, let the bus go by.
Gotta let that nat sound go.
So much traffic out here,people.
And this witness, Jane, of thesefreak-offs, these hotel nights,
(10:04):
of these women who aretestifying that they felt forced
into sex by Sean Combs.
But one thing I noted, too, wasat first Jane said that she
thought she was just engaging insomething that was sort of
taboo.
And she sort of enjoyed thisfirst sexual experience she had
with Sean Combs and another man.
And I noticed Combs noddingduring this, kind of looking
towards the jury.
(10:24):
He kept checking in with them.
So at first it was something,you know, she was interested in
trying to make him happy.
But as it continued, same withCassie.
She said that she kept trying tostop it.
Well, we will see what
SPEAKER_03 (10:34):
happens as we enter.
Can you believe it's going to beweek five?
Week five of the Sean Combsfederal trial.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Jerika.
Again, that was politicalreporter and CBS News legal
analyst Katrina Kaufman.
(11:00):
As I mentioned earlier, I wantto delve into the testimony of
Mia.
She goes by this pseudonym incourt to protect her identity.
And just to give you a sense ofher, she was very soft-spoken.
She kept her head down, and eventhe court artists were not
allowed to draw her face.
So if you look at any of thesketches, it just is a face and
you see hair, but there's nodistinct features.
(11:23):
Now, she says she worked forCombs from 2009 to 2017 as his
personal assistant.
She testified that Combssexually assaulted her first in
2009, and then she says inaround or about 2009 or 2010, he
raped her.
When she was fired in 2017, Miasays she did obtain a lawyer
with the intent to sue Combs for$10 million, but settled for
(11:46):
$400,000 in mediation.
She told jurors that hertestimony in this case is not
about seeking money or fame, butshe felt it was her moral
obligation to speak up.
To help us understand thecomplex nature of this testimony
is clinical psychologist, Dr.
Tama Bryant.
Dr.
Bryant, thank you so much forjoining us today.
SPEAKER_04 (12:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_03 (12:09):
So when I think about this case, we know how
important the jurors are.
And just to start off, what aresome of the things that jurors
should really consider Whendealing with this testimony from
people who say that they werepsychologically, sexually, or
even physically abused by Combs,what are some of those key
things that these jurors shouldkeep front of mind?
SPEAKER_04 (12:33):
Well, the first thing I want for jurors to think
about and potential futurejurors to consider is that we
all respond to traumadifferently.
And so you may see one witnessshowing distress with
tearfulness and another witnesswho feels very contained, might
even seem like to bedisconnected from their
(12:54):
emotions.
And so to not judge the displayas the determination of if they
are valid in what they're sayingmight By personality, by
culture, by gender, by lifeexperience, we all learn to
sometimes mute our distress.
And if we feel more safe orcomfortable or overwhelmed, we
(13:16):
may show it more.
So when trauma has happened overan extended time, there are
first three major categories ofdistress that we can see.
One is a disruption in people'sidentity, the ways they think
about themselves.
So the person may seem like theylack confidence.
(13:37):
They may seem insecure.
They may carry or display a lotof shame, embarrassment, feeling
humiliated by what they haveexperienced.
We also see people havingdifficulty regulating their
emotions.
So that just means that I mightseem very calm and contained one
moment and then suddenly becomevery tearful.
(13:59):
So we want to be mindful of theways in which that trauma can
just overwhelm our capacity tocope.
And then a third category isdifficulty trusting new people.
So you can develop ahypervigilance, become very
guarded.
And you may have also, alongwith having trouble trusting
(14:22):
others, you may have troubletrusting yourself because maybe
you thought this person was agood person.
And so then if they mistreatyou, then you can start to doubt
your ability to read people orto predict what is safe and what
is not safe.
Many people who experiencetrauma can develop
(14:43):
post-traumatic stress disorder.
So they might start avoidingthings that remind them of the
trauma.
They might have intrusivethoughts, which means they think
about it even when they don'twant to think about it.
And again, that hypervigilance.
We might also have depressionwhere nothing is real enjoyable
anymore, where they lack energyand motivation.
(15:07):
Some people might engage inself-destructive behaviors and
also anxiety.
SPEAKER_03 (15:14):
And some of that we have heard from the testimony of
Mia and others.
Mia talked about not being ableto get back into the workforce
in the same way and beingparanoid.
I want to touch on something yousaid in reference to, you know,
Sometimes it not surfacing interms of what people are feeling
(15:35):
or how they're dealing with ituntil much later.
Because with Mia's story, whenyou hear that she says she was
raped in around 2009 or 2010, sothis is the beginning of working
with Combs, and then worked withhim until 2017.
And we'll get to some otherthings that happened later, even
(15:55):
after that time period.
But when you hear that, forpeople that don't understand,
how surprising is it for you asa clinical psychologist to hear
that someone stayed working withsomeone for so long, even after
they were sexually assaulted bythem, according to Mia?
SPEAKER_04 (16:15):
Yes.
Unfortunately, it is quitesurprising.
I want to say quite common forsome people as a way of
surviving.
So one way of thinking about itis for a certain group of
people, they may try to convincethemselves that it was a
misunderstanding or the personwas drunk or high, that somehow
(16:40):
they didn't mean it.
And if I can convince myselfthat this person was is a good
person, or this person does careabout me, or this person will be
kind to me.
Because often in thesesituations, the person doesn't
act like a monster every day,all day.
So then there may be momentswhere they're acting like, you
(17:00):
know, you all have this greatworking relationship, or, you
know, they confide in you inparticular ways.
And so sometimes people arehoping it will be a corrective
experience, meaning that if I amaround them this time, it won't
happen again or that they'll besorry or they may regret it or
(17:22):
things will go back to the waythey were before the violation.
So that hope for a differentoutcome can cause a person to
try to pretend like it didn'thappen.
They may also be taking the cuesof the person who did the
offensive behavior, who was alsopretending nothing happened.
(17:45):
I want to also name the issue offear.
There can be the recognition, ifwe consider it an abusive
relationship, even though it'san abusive work relationship,
often when you are trying toexit or escape, people escalate
in their violence or in theirattempt to control you.
(18:06):
So there can be this desire tocommunicate to the person, like,
I'm not mad, everything's okay,as a mechanism or a tool to
protect yourself.
That if I don't complain and wejust go back to the way things
were before, I'm less likely tobe harmed.
SPEAKER_03 (18:26):
So I want to read you some of the excerpts from
court.
This is when the defenseattorney, Brian Steele, is
questioning Mia about why shecontinues to keep in touch with
her alleged abuser.
The defense says, and can youread to the jury what you wrote
to Mr.
Combs?
Mia says, just thinking of youtoday and every day.
(18:46):
Also, no lie.
Last night I had a nightmare.
I was trapped in an elevatorwith R.
Kelly and I screamed for you andyou came to rescue me.
So thank you for that too.
Sending you love.
The defense.
Now at that time, it's 2019, andyou wrote that you had a
nightmare concerning the person,the artist known as R.
(19:06):
Kelly, right?
Mia says yes.
The defense.
And the person who sexuallyassaulted you in your dream, or
nightmare rather, came to yourrescue?
That's what you wrote?
Mia says yes.
The defense says.
And you not only had the visionin your mind, but then you
express it to Mr.
Combs?
Mia says yes.
The defense.
(19:27):
So the person who you told theladies and gentlemen of the jury
terrorized you and caused youPTSD, you wrote to that person
and explained how that personsaved you from the other person
named there, right?
Then the prosecutor says,objection, which is sustained.
How common is that behavior whensomeone who says they were
abused, keep in touch, keep aconnection with the person who
(19:51):
allegedly hurt them?
SPEAKER_04 (19:52):
So in this example, what it makes me think about is
people who are trying to appealto a person's, let's say, higher
good, meaning that there aresome people, this is like the
subtext of what she's saying.
There are some people who aremonsters and you're not a
(20:15):
monster, meaning or you couldchoose not to be.
And so if I can convince myselfand if I can get the
confirmation from you that givena dangerous situation, you would
intervene and protect me, thenit helps the survivor to
re-narrate the story, the storyof what has actually happened to
(20:38):
think, oh, yes, like all theseyears of my life haven't been
wasted, that I wasn't totallywrong in my read of this person,
that there were these blips onthe screen where bad things
happen, but in general, thisperson wants something good for
me.
This person desires a goodoutcome.
(21:00):
This person would help me if Iwas in danger.
So this hunger to believe thatthe worst of what you have
experienced is not the truth ofhow they see you.
So sometimes for survivors, as Isaid, there is a disruption in
your sense of yourself.
(21:20):
So you're looking for thisoutside validation.
So what more freeing than tohave the person who I think did
not see my humanity to now tellme, not only do they see me, but
they would rescue me.
So that's what she's seeking inthis interaction for the one who
(21:40):
harmed her to now provide somehealing by saying you're worthy
of protection.
SPEAKER_03 (21:48):
There's another excerpt that I want to pull from
from Mia's testimony.
This is in reference to theproof, I guess, that she was
assaulted and the amount of timethat went by in reference to not
putting it on record somewhere.
The defense says, do you haveanything where you
(22:10):
contemporaneously wrote to afriend, a family member, police
officer, anybody, and said, thisis what's going on, I'm being
assaulted, berated, anything?
Mia, no.
The only time I reached out forhelp was very subtly to people
in the office, but notdisclosing things that other
people hadn't witnessed.
(22:32):
No, I would never.
Now, in the case of Ventura,we've heard testimony from
others who have seen the markson her body after she says comb
hit her.
Ventura even emailed her motherat one point and copied an
assistant.
So do you find a lot of peopledon't speak about the violence
or make some sort of notessomewhere in case they need it
(22:53):
as proof for later?
I
SPEAKER_04 (22:55):
find that most people are not thinking about
gathering evidence.
They're just thinking abouttrying to survive another day,
trying to get through it.
And if we wonder why peopledon't talk about it, all you
have to do is look on socialmedia on what people are saying
now.
Even if you report immediately,it's not like the community or
(23:18):
society rallies around you youcould say that it happened the
very next morning and you wouldstill have a large number of
people saying you're a liar,you're out to get money, judging
you, dismissing you, degradingyou.
So we have not, as a society,created a culture that would be
(23:38):
welcoming or inviting for peopleto feel they will be believed
and supported.
So that's one piece.
A second piece is, if you're notsure that you're going to leave
the job, then you would befearful to tell certain people
because their immediate piecewould be like, you need to go to
(24:02):
the police or you need to go tothe media or you need to get out
of there.
And so if you're not certainthat you can do that for a
number of reasons, then youwould not go and speak to those
persons.
Also, This case in particularhas a high level of surveillance
(24:22):
and disparity in power.
So with the level of power andsurveillance and monitoring he
had, people would understandablyand justifiably be very anxious
about telling anyone ordocumenting anything.
Because if you tell, she knewshe was sent to be a spy, right?
(24:45):
she was sent to be a part of thesurveillance.
So it would not be far-fetchedto think there are people
watching me, or if people findout I have talked to someone,
then I could be brutalized.
So most people are not actuallygathering evidence.
They're trying to think of howto make it stop or how to endure
(25:07):
it, or at the most, how toescape.
SPEAKER_03 (25:10):
According to the defense, Mia met with
prosecutors a total of 28 timesand she did not disclose the
sexual abuse until June 18th of2024.
I've had a lot of people on myInstagram posts ask me why did
she wait so long and have evenclaimed that this sounds like
someone who is piling on inhopes of getting money.
(25:33):
Can you address that?
SPEAKER_04 (25:34):
Yes.
So the way she describes thesituation from the beginning is
he was framing her andthreatening to present it as
consensual.
So this would be something shewould be embarrassed about.
The violation is something shewould be embarrassed about and
(25:55):
not want people to know becauseof the very judgment that we're
experiencing and also because ofwhat their relationship was
supposed to be in the house.
So even for me as a therapist,some people will more quickly
share if there has been physicalabuse in a relationship.
(26:17):
But I often have to ask a veryexplicit question as it relates
to the sexual violence.
And we have to have thetherapeutic relationship for
people to start talking aboutthat part of it because of the
high level of victim blaming,especially when the offender is
known to you.
(26:37):
When people are usuallybelieving and supportive, as if
it's a stranger, right?
That you got attacked by astranger in an alley.
Then people are like, well,yeah, that wasn't your fault.
But in most cases, it's peopleyou know, right?
Exactly.
Which means in most cases, we'renot believed.
In most cases, it is notbelieved.
(26:58):
And so that's why a person wouldbe hesitant to share that either
you're going to believe thispowerful person or presenting it
as consensual.
And I will say, in a courtsituation, they will often say
it's inconclusive.
If it's their word against yourword and you don't have physical
(27:19):
evidence, then usually there'snot going to be a conviction.
So the idea that one, I'm notlikely going to be believed by
the larger society.
And two, this person with a lotof power is going to present it
as if I was consenting.
SPEAKER_03 (27:37):
Now, it was important for the jurors to hear
when an expert on sexual abuseand assault was brought in early
on in this trial, for her toacknowledge, you know, I have
not looked at medical records ofCassie Ventura.
I have not looked at medicalrecords of, you know, Capricorn
Clark or some of these peoplethat have played big in terms of
witnesses.
So, When you think aboutwitnesses who have not had
(28:03):
someone, specifically an expert,look at their medical records or
treated them in any way,testifying to sort of the
generalizations, help peopleunderstand, too, who will go,
well, any type of psychologistwill make an excuse for someone
and their behavior.
They'll find any way to say, oh,well, it was this and what they
meant to do or what they'retrying to say.
(28:25):
I feel like in a lot of thesecases, because there's so much
judgment that goes out beforeyou even hear what someone has
to say, and then of course youhear what they have to say, and
because maybe you wouldn't haveresponded in that way, it's hard
to fathom that somebody wouldput themselves, quote, in a
situation where these thingsmight occur.
But for those who will look atthese stories and listen to them
(28:47):
and think there's no way he didthis, or why would you put
yourself in that situation, isthe first step, Just hearing
people out and then assessing,as even a clinical psychologist,
the truth, where the truth lies.
SPEAKER_04 (29:02):
I would encourage people to reflect on their own
tendencies to put victims ontrial instead of accused
offenders.
So in other words, some peoplelisten to the story, and as you
have said, before the person haseven shared their story, have
already decided, based ontalent...
(29:25):
that they like him, they likehis music, so because he is
gifted, he must be innocent.
So in psychology, we call that ahalo effect, where if you have
one positive attribute, thenpeople can overgeneralize and
think they know you.
Like, because you're great invideos, then I'm going to make
(29:45):
an assumption that you wouldnever do something terrible.
So instead of wondering why,would she stay for us to think
about why would someone withpower abuse it?
Why would someone violatesomeone who works for them?
(30:09):
Why would someone threaten andengage in violent behavior?
So those who are quick tobelieve that people must be
lying I encourage you torecognize that sexual assault is
actually underreported.
(30:31):
So the idea people have is allthese people are crying rape to
get attention and money.
People are not treated well whenthey say they have been sexually
assaulted.
They don't get a parade.
They don't get wonderfultreatment that would warrant
just making up stories.
(30:53):
What we have more often ispeople not coming forward,
people not trusting the policeor not feeling comfortable with
the court system, or if it'ssomeone within your own
community, not wanting to engagein these criminal systems.
So we can think about as asociety or even as an
(31:17):
individual, The way I'm writingin a post and the way I'm
talking about this, if I do knowsomeone who's been assaulted,
what have I said or done thathas created an atmosphere for
that person to feel comfortabletelling me?
So people say these shaming,blaming things and then wonder
(31:41):
why their own daughters orsisters have never confided in
them.
when they have already revealedthat they will not believe them.
SPEAKER_03 (31:54):
What has this case done for people around the
country?
What are clients telling you?
Because I know having coveredthe Me Too movement and some of
the big celebrities that we werefocused on at that time, be it
Harvey Weinstein or JeffreyEpstein, there was a group of
folks, you know, everydayAmericans, if you will, who I
(32:16):
remember hearing from that weretriggered by the different
cases.
So how do you think this sort ofshapes the narrative once again,
because it's so well-known andpeople are talking about this
particular trial throughout thecountry and around the world?
SPEAKER_04 (32:34):
Yes.
So it can be very triggeringbecause especially if we're on
social media or just watchingthe news, the story comes up.
And it doesn't just come up ingeneralities.
It comes up very specific, verygraphic details, which can be
(32:54):
overwhelming to hear, especiallyif it pulls up people's own
memories.
But I will also say some peoplefeel empowered of seeing that
even after, you know, if webelieve what is being reported,
that even after years of abuse,or years of misuse that you can
(33:17):
claim your voice again, that youcould find love or relationship
or a healthy dynamic in theaftermath.
And that even when the person isvery powerful and has done very
abusive things that your storydoesn't have to end there.
(33:38):
And so while it can betriggering, There are also
people who are cheering for thesurvivors and seeing a part of
them in the stories that arebeing told.
SPEAKER_03 (33:52):
Is there redemption ever for people who are accused
of such horrible crimes?
You know, beating up someone,raping someone.
I feel like psychological abuseis far too prevalent in just
about any relationship.
And sometimes you even need tocall it out within yourself to
(34:12):
change the behavior.
But is there redemption?
So I
SPEAKER_04 (34:18):
would say there's the issue of systemic justice or
redemption and then like thepersonal or the psychological
piece of that.
So what I mean is if he is notconvicted, it won't cause a lot
(34:39):
of people to, I think peoplewill dig into what they already
believe.
So people who have alwaysthought he was innocent will
say, see, we told you, you know,another brother set up by these
liars.
For people who believe he didit, they will say another
(35:00):
example of the system failingwomen the system bending down to
power.
And there have already beentalks about the president of the
United States directly beingasked, would he intervene if
there is a conviction?
So there can be a heightenedsense of hopelessness,
(35:20):
powerlessness, and not feelingprotected.
So that is...
You know, often the case forpeople who come forward, you
know, a smaller percentage get aconviction, a smaller
percentage, you know, isactually ending up doing time.
But then in terms of personalredemption, I would like to say,
(35:44):
you know, if the question is, istransformation possible?
It is, you know, yeah.
Harming people, hurting people,mistreating people, even
assaulting people is a choice.
It is a series of decisions.
And so I would encourage anyonewho has ever violated someone or
(36:10):
been verbally abusive to know atany moment, I can make another
choice.
At any moment, I can get helpand choose to show up
differently for myself and forthe people that I claim to love.
SPEAKER_03 (36:26):
How important is forgiveness in all of this?
I was on the airplane becauseI'm in LA right now doing this
podcast and I watched the movieExhibiting Forgiveness.
And if you haven't seen it, it'sa touching story about just how
hard it is, especially for thosewho, again, feel as though
they've been harmed by someoneimportant to them.
(36:49):
Don't want to give away themovie in case you want to check
it out.
But it really forces you to godeep.
And I think when you hear someof the testimony, you wonder how
that sort of healing journey isgoing realistically.
Because for Cassie Ventura, forinstance, she says, I don't hate
combs.
(37:10):
You know, I like what we had interms of the good things.
But she has clearly moved on.
She's married now, threechildren.
But how important is thatelement in this case?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_04 (37:24):
I wanna say that systems, society, religion,
culture often presses victims toforgive, but never emphasizes
accountability or changebehavior.
The onus is put on victims tofirst prove that something
(37:48):
happened to them.
And then even once it's proved,that's usually the question.
Even when we look at collectivetrauma or shooting of unarmed
persons, there's often thismessaging to the community, we
need to forgive and just moveforward.
So we really want to interrogateour tendency to tell people who
(38:18):
didn't have power that they needto get over it.
And those who abuse their power,that we just need to turn the
page and pretend it didn'thappen.
So I would encourage people toseparate forgiveness from
reconciliation.
So I may choose to forgivesomeone who is or isn't sorry.
(38:41):
I may choose to release that sothat I'm not carrying the
emotional burden psychologicalweight of that.
But in order for there to bereconciliation, there has to be
a transformation.
Sometimes people are forgivingpersons, as may have been
happening in this case, whoaren't sorry and who continue to
(39:05):
harm you.
So that's a very dangeroussituation.
And it's a dangerous message totell people just keep forgiving.
Meanwhile, the violence isescalating.
So I would say for realreconciliation, we can put a
pause on what's the path forvictims to take you back and put
(39:27):
a focus on what is theresponsibility of those who have
done harm to make it right.
SPEAKER_03 (39:36):
Well said.
Dr.
Tama Bryant, everyone, we thankyou so much for guiding us
through that conversation.
For more on Dr.
Tama, you can check out theHomecoming podcast and her
latest book, Matters of theHeart, Healing Relationships
with Yourself and Those YouLove.
Thank you, Dr.
Bryant.
Thank you so much for having me.
And one more thing.
(39:57):
A lot of people are asking meabout this trial, about who I
believe, what I think will bethe outcome.
And with any case, I am allabout leaving it in the hands of
the jury.
For those who are tired ofhearing about Combs at this
point or wondering why thecoverage is so nonstop, if you
(40:18):
will, on a lot of platforms, Ichallenge you to look at the
layers involved and also thinkabout this person that so many
people have gotten to know overthe course of 20, 25 years.
I do want to say thank you toall of you who've been concerned
about my own mental health andcovering this, but it has been a
talker and it's something thatclearly it seems everyone is
(40:42):
talking about, including my11-year-old daughter who told me
that some of her friends arefollowing this case.
And I have to remind her she isnot to follow this case.
It's a lot.
It's heavy and it's definitelynot for children.
I thank you so much forlistening.
Please follow me on Instagramand TikTok.
I am that reporter JD.
(41:04):
Again, I am that reporter JD.
DM me if you have any questionsand maybe we can address them on
the next one.
Until then, have a blessed day.
Hopefully we'll see you backhere once again.
(41:24):
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to help, please, please,
please spread the word.
Tell your friends, tell yourfamily, encourage them to
listen.
You can also follow Rate andReview on Apple Podcasts and
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