CBS News Correspondent and CBS Weekend anchor Jericka Duncan was recently given the task to cover the the trial of Sean "Diddy" Combs. Her assignment puts her at the courthouse and in the courtroom every day of the trial so she has a front row seat to all of the action happening in and outside of the courtroom.
This week, Jericka sits down with the creator of the wildly popular YouTube Channel, Make It Make Sense (MIMS) to discuss his journey into content creation, the challenges of covering high-profile trials, and the responsibility of amplifying the voices of victims. He also reflects on the shift from legacy media to new media, the importance of integrity in journalism, and the impact of social media on public perception before sharing his thoughts on the future of content creation in the age of AI and his personal aspirations moving forward after the case concludes.
THE TEAM
Host: Jericka Duncan
Executive Producer/Editor: Scott Riggs
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
I definitely don't feel like Diddy's going to do
life in prison.
I say 10 to 15 years, honestly.
He might even walk.
The women who have taken thestand, I don't believe that
their testimonies were strongenough to put Diddy away for
life in prison.
SPEAKER_00 (00:17):
I think the defense, and this is just a personal on
my own accord, but the reasonwhy Diddy had these women having
so many freak-offs and so manyinteractions with these men is
because he wanted to be the onehaving these interactions with
the men.
SPEAKER_02 (00:36):
We are getting close to the end.
During week six of the UnitedStates government versus Sean
Combs, the federal judge excusedjuror number six, a 41-year-old
Black man who gave inconsistentstatements about where he lives.
I'm Jerika Duncan, a CBS Newsnational correspondent and
anchor of the CBS Weekend News.
(00:58):
Welcome to my podcast, I Am ThatReporter.
Thank you so much.
(01:23):
According to the government,Combs abused, threatened, and
coerced women and others aroundhim for decades to fulfill his
sexual desires, protect hisreputation, and conceal his
conduct.
The government says Combs reliedon employees, resources, and
influence from his multifacetedbusiness empire that he led and
(01:43):
controlled, creating a criminalenterprise whose members and
associates engaged in andattempted to engage in among
other crimes, sex trafficking,forced labor, kidnapping, arson,
bribery, and obstruction ofjustice.
Combs has denied any wrongdoingand has pleaded not guilty to
all charges.
(02:03):
This week, I want to talk aboutsomething I noticed the second
week of the trial, and that isthe number of influencers,
content creators, and YouTuberswho were informing people in
their own unique way about thistrial and have grown their
audiences who can't get enough.
The New York Times, theWashington Post, the Wall Street
(02:25):
Journal, they've all donestories about it.
In a June 16th HollywoodReporter article titled Outside
the Diddy Trial, A New MediaGuard Rules, Kevin Dolak writes,
the trial's live streamingplayers each come with a unique
delivery style that's lesspolished or familiar and rife
with the slang du jour.
(02:45):
Among this gang of streetjournalists are the sometimes
frantic and frazzled, but moreoften than not sharp and
informative explainers, likeYouTuber Tisa Tells, the
conspiratorial voice ofFamertube, the comedy trial
coverage of first-timer SamCrouppen, who has 510,000
followers and a growing TikTokfan base, and the wildly popular
(03:08):
Rotten Mango, a.k.a.
true crime podcaster StephanieHsu.
who has taken up the Diddy trialand is running with it so
successfully, she overtook JoeRogan as the top podcaster on
YouTube.
I actually interviewed Sueoutside the courthouse on May
22nd.
Listen to what she had to say.
SPEAKER_03 (03:29):
Yeah, I'm Stephanie Sue of Rotten Mango.
I do a true crime podcast.
And now this is the first trialI'm ever sitting on ever, like
ever.
And it's the most intense thingI've ever experienced in my
life.
SPEAKER_02 (03:42):
What made you want to cover it in this way?
Yeah, so
SPEAKER_03 (03:49):
we did like a four part series on this case.
I think like collectively,probably close to nine hours of
video content out there.
And I just like I can't I can'tget it out of my head.
I mean, I spent so long justlooking at all the lawsuits,
going through it and filming.
And I'm like, I'm so investedthat I just want to see what
(04:09):
happens.
And I think the experience is sounique.
And I know you guys have coveredso many.
So I'm like such a new peer.
SPEAKER_02 (04:19):
And while it's fun for her, it's really no laughing
matter.
Stephanie Hsu has over 5 millionsubscribers on YouTube.
Due to safety and privacyconcerns, the creator of this
(04:42):
YouTube channel has requestedthat we not give his name.
So today to help us understandthe story outside the trial, I'm
joined by the creator of Make ItMake Sense, the YouTube channel
which has over 200,000subscribers.
Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_04 (04:58):
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
Thank you so much for joining me.
So I think for me and so manypeople I've spoken to about the
importance of social mediacovering this trial, how did you
get your start?
SPEAKER_04 (05:11):
It was the weirdest thing.
This was not supposed to be mylife.
I completely recognize that.
I was interviewing for a newposition during COVID and you
had to take 10 questions andbriefly answer them and then
submit those via video.
(05:31):
And it took around six hours.
SPEAKER_02 (05:34):
What?
SPEAKER_04 (05:34):
Because I didn't like the way that I presented on
camera.
And I had a friend who had like500 subscribers and she was
like, come on my channel just toget a little used to being on
camera.
So I was like, okay, sure.
And she dropped.
And it was just dead air.
So had I not actually startedtalking to the audience or
(05:55):
engaging, it would have beendead air.
And that's literally how I gotmy start.
I started my own channel rightafter that.
I still don't technically likethe way I present, which sounds
crazy since this is now mycareer.
SPEAKER_02 (06:08):
What is it specifically?
Because I kind of can understandwhat you're saying about that.
There are things that I'velooked at of myself and I'm
like, oh, I sound weird or...
I don't seem comfortable there.
Is there something specific foryou?
I
SPEAKER_04 (06:23):
don't watch one of my videos.
SPEAKER_02 (06:26):
Oh, really?
Once you do it, you just
SPEAKER_04 (06:28):
put
SPEAKER_02 (06:28):
it out there?
Mm-hmm.
When did you realize that youcould do this as a profession?
Because to hear you say,pandemic time, you're looking
for this job, you kind ofstumble upon this, and then you
realize, wait a minute, this iskind of cool.
I like doing this enough thatI'm going to pursue it.
I'm going to start my ownchannel.
SPEAKER_04 (06:48):
Technically, it's as a smaller content creator, you
don't make a lot of money, but Ialways set goals for myself.
And I said, well, I'm going todo this weekly.
And within three months or fourmonths, if I'm not making enough
money to pay a car note or pay abill, then I'm not going to do
this weekly.
Cause it's a lot of time, likeputting together a show, finding
(07:10):
an audience.
It did not happen in threemonths, but within like six or
seven months, I was able to paya car note and I was like, okay,
This is something.
But my channel actually took offat a really low point in my
life.
My sister was very, very ill,and I was a caregiver, and I'm
in corporate America.
I'm working sometimes six, sevendays a week, overtime and
(07:33):
caregiving.
And my channel took off.
Literally, she was ill thatJanuary, moved into our home,
and my channel took off.
SPEAKER_02 (07:45):
What were you talking about at that time that
you think...
people were resonating with whatyou had to say?
SPEAKER_04 (07:51):
I've always been a person interested in like going
past surface level information.
And believe it or not, KimZolciak from the Bravo show Real
Housewives was having legaltrouble with her house.
And I went in, I pulled all thecourt records, which technically
a lot of people were not doingon YouTube at the time.
(08:11):
However, they do it now.
But yes, so that's really how itstarted.
I started pulling court records.
I hired a private eye forcertain things.
And I had an attorney who wouldassist me before I knew how to
do it myself.
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
So I want to get into a little bit of what we're
covering.
You know, it is the trial of theyear.
Some would say of the century.
They haven't seen.
And I actually spoke to somebodywho talked about covering OJ
Simpson and saying that thisfelt like that in terms of the
energy.
But When you think about thethings that you have discussed
or covered on your channel, whythis trial?
(08:49):
Why invest the time and theresources in covering Sean
Combs?
SPEAKER_04 (08:56):
I'll just be blunt.
A lot of people that arecovering it are covering it as
if Cassie was somehow deservingof what she got.
And I chose to amplify thevoices of victims and survivors.
once some of the survivorsstarted reaching out to me, then
(09:17):
it started feeling like aresponsibility.
SPEAKER_02 (09:19):
Like,
SPEAKER_04 (09:21):
definitely, I don't understand the way people think.
So it became a responsibilityfor me to break it down in a
more digestible way so that youcould see that there was, you
can't glorify celebrity, youcan't glorify these people's
lives, because you feel likeThey have a certain amount of
(09:42):
money or access to things.
No, we have to talk aboutconsent.
We have to talk about rapeculture.
We have to talk about thesethings so that it can be a
learning experience.
So that's why I took on thechallenge.
I had no idea there would be somany civil complaints.
I had no idea that this wouldbasically take over a good
(10:02):
percentage of the things that Irun on my channel.
SPEAKER_02 (10:07):
So what do you think about this attention influencers
are getting at this time andcomparing it to legacy media?
I
SPEAKER_04 (10:19):
think it's very dangerous.
Although I try to have somejournalistic integrity on my
platform, you can sit in thecourtroom with someone who has a
million subscribers and they'llleave the courtroom and you'll
see them outside talking andthey'll just say things like,
(10:39):
Young Miami was in the courtroomtoday.
SPEAKER_02 (10:42):
You've heard that?
SPEAKER_04 (10:43):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (10:45):
Okay, we know that's not accurate.
SPEAKER_04 (10:47):
That person does not have a million followers, but
whatever amount of followersthey have, they're listening
because that's where they'regetting their news from.
So if you don't have anyintegrity in what you're saying,
then it's just mass spread lies.
I think it's very dangerous.
SPEAKER_02 (11:06):
So isn't it up to the people?
who decide who they want tofollow or watch.
SPEAKER_04 (11:12):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (11:13):
What they believe, like you can't make, what I
think about social media when Ilook at this landscape, if you
will, people are going to go towhere they think someone is
giving them the real news.
There are some criticalconsumers who will look at
various platforms, right?
(11:34):
Like I personally like lookingat all of the different
networks.
I don't necessarily just stay inmy CBS bubble.
And I think the same is true forpeople who consume on social
media.
Not everybody, but I do havehope that there are some folks
that are looking more criticallyor even, I think it's
(11:56):
interesting when somebody willadd a detail that I didn't put
in a social media video, thatit's not that I didn't know
that, But I just didn't want itto be 10 minutes long.
And I decide what five bulletpoints am I going to talk about?
SPEAKER_04 (12:11):
Yeah, I guess if I'm doing short form content, I do
that.
But in terms of this trial, Idon't.
Sometimes my lives are an hourand a half.
I still think it's dangerous.
And we have seen a shift fromlegacy media to new media.
And I think the pendulum swingsboth ways.
If you recall when they weregoing to take away TikTok, they
(12:36):
were saying they're taking awayTikTok because TikTok is the
only outlet that really allowspeople to speak the truth.
But a lot of those truths areconspiracy theories.
So it's not necessarily thatyou're getting unfiltered truth
and you're getting someone'sopinion or you're getting
somebody's who is lying becausea lie is more interesting than
(12:58):
the truth.
And I think that that is verydangerous.
That's why I have a lot ofrespect for legacy media because
you guys, well, some networks.
SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
You can say you have a lot of respect for CBS.
It's okay.
It's a shameless plug here.
It's okay.
SPEAKER_04 (13:14):
Some networks operate with integrity, but I
don't, I think it's dangerous.
I think that I'm trying not tosay any content creators' names
to give an example, but justfill in the blank with whatever
your favorite content creator isthat gives you the most
(13:36):
salacious information.
Everybody skews whatever way,but-
SPEAKER_02 (13:44):
So which way do you skew?
I
SPEAKER_04 (13:47):
acknowledge that I'm giving an opinion.
I acknowledge that sometimes Ihold a bias.
But my subscribers expect that,for example, this trial, I'm
going to give them an unbiasedopinion.
Although I do not like Diddy asa person, I don't like anyone
who puts their hands on women.
If the defense has a good day,I'm going to tell my subscribers
(14:09):
when I feel like what they didin court was effective.
SPEAKER_02 (14:14):
So when it comes to legacy media, because I kind of
want to stay there, who do youfollow?
SPEAKER_04 (14:19):
MSNBC, CNN.
I also watch.
I also watch Fox News.
I always put CBS, ABC, and NBC.
I group them together, but Iconsume everything.
I feel like that gives me a morerounded opinion because I do
(14:41):
follow everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
Do you consider yourself a journalist?
SPEAKER_04 (14:45):
Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_02 (14:47):
Why not?
SPEAKER_04 (14:49):
I think that journalists go to school for
that.
I think that journalists...
There's a lot of work thatlegacy media puts in.
Somebody with a microphone whohas an opinion, I think it's
great.
I'm one of those people, but Ido have a certain amount of
respect for legacy media.
SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Well, as you probably know, based on covering
legacy media, things areshifting.
And I think for us, it's aboutbeing in all of those different
spaces as well as on broadcasttelevision.
That Hollywood Reporter articlethat I mentioned earlier,
according to a Pew Researchstudy, it said 86% of Americans
(15:26):
turn to digital devices fornews, with two-thirds using news
websites and apps and aroundhalf getting news directly from
social media channels.
SPEAKER_04 (15:38):
Based on my response, do you see any danger
in that?
SPEAKER_02 (15:43):
I think people have always...
made a decision based on theirown values to follow certain
newspapers before there wastelevision, radio stations, some
that have an agenda, whetherit's to preserve certain things
(16:04):
the way they are, or people thatare advocating for change and
evolution and revolution.
So I think in some ways, thisisn't that new in terms of
people having choices as to whatthey're going to listen to or
what they're going to subscribeto.
I just think we are inundatednonstop with this constant play
(16:26):
of different places to get yournews from that it could become
overwhelming.
And we now have algorithms too,which is a little different
because it's going to continueto feed you whatever you're
liking.
So in that regard, it can be ifyou're not a conscious consumer
or someone that's open tohearing other sides or other
(16:47):
perspectives.
I've been told I probably givepeople too much credit when it
comes to believing that theywill not research, but reach out
to not just one particularspace.
And to the name of your channel,Make It Make Sense, I think
(17:09):
you're right.
People ask that question all thetime.
And sometimes it's a livedexperience.
that informs you more than whatyou're going to tell me.
You could tell me that there arelollipops falling from the sky.
I've never seen that.
So I'm not going to trust you.
I just think that maybe you'rejust being funny.
SPEAKER_04 (17:29):
And some people might ask the location so they
could pick one up off thestreet.
SPEAKER_02 (17:34):
And what happens when they never get that
lollipop?
SPEAKER_04 (17:37):
They still believe it.
SPEAKER_02 (17:39):
Yeah.
I guess because I'm in thisfield and I would love for it to
be around a lot longer.
I'm actually more fascinated,and this is why...
I wanted to do this segment.
I'm fascinated by seeing thatthere's really a lot of room for
a lot of different opinions andways of telling stories.
(18:00):
I'm also interested in howpeople are able to quit their
jobs and have, you know, someonelike a Stephanie Sue, 5 million
subscribers, right?
You've got 200,000 subscribers.
That's not what most peoplehave.
And then you're able to monetizethat.
So I find all of that like superfascinating.
But this case has really startedsort of brought that to light?
(18:22):
Because anytime you have, youknow, the Hollywood Reporter,
the Wall Street Journal, the NewYork Times, they've all covered
this story on some level, andhaving covered other trials,
I've never seen this before.
Have you?
No.
SPEAKER_04 (18:35):
I do think that this is the trial of the century.
It's way more than just watercooler talk.
People are having in-depthconversations about consent and
rape culture, and I'm going tocontinue to say that because I
don't think that people are evenaware that this trial is
challenging the way that theysee rape culture.
SPEAKER_02 (18:55):
Now,
SPEAKER_04 (18:56):
maybe you can't talk about this at work, or maybe you
can't listen to my podcast atwork if you don't have your
earphones on, but that's justthe content.
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
No, I mean, like I said, I'm a consumer of a lot of
different news and I'm alwaysinterested to hear different
perspectives.
And I think anytime you have acase, whether it's a Sean Combs
or the second trial recently ofHarvey Weinstein, you know, or
the, you know, GhislaineMaxwell, Jeffrey Epstein, the
list goes on.
I think anytime thoseconversations are being had, it
(19:27):
elevates something that maybe weweren't talking about 10, 15, 20
years ago in this way.
SPEAKER_04 (19:33):
I think the issue with Sean Combs is he's always
wanted media attention.
You weren't really seeingproducers wanting to be in music
videos like he was with Biggie.
You weren't really seeing themcultivate an image so that they
could be the celebrity when theywere supposed to be the CEO.
(19:54):
This is what he wanted.
And that's why this trial hasbecome so much bigger than
Epstein or who's the other guy?
SPEAKER_02 (20:03):
Harvey Weinstein?
SPEAKER_04 (20:04):
Yes.
Weinstein.
This is so much bigger becauseSean Combs, marginally talented,
wanted to be the star.
He wanted this.
And now, unfortunately, becauseyou are such a public figure and
you are fighting to stay apublic figure at, I think he's
around 54, 55?
55.
(20:24):
Yeah.
Now, this is the end result.
When you go down, the worldwants to know because you wanted
to be a public figure at allcosts.
SPEAKER_02 (20:35):
How do you think this ends for him?
SPEAKER_04 (20:37):
I hope he gets some jail time.
I hope he gets jail time.
And if he doesn't, I will lookat the culture as a whole with a
different lens.
If you can sit and listen to themerits of the case, and decide
that this man is not guilty,then what does that say for our
(21:00):
society?
SPEAKER_02 (21:00):
What if he is found guilty but receives a pardon
from the president?
SPEAKER_04 (21:06):
I don't think, and this is just my personal
opinion, I don't think thatTrump will pardon him.
I think that Trump chose tothrow that out into the
atmosphere because he is verygood at marketing himself.
And that particular week he haddone several buzzworthy things
and they were all overshadowedby Sean Combs trial.
(21:26):
So why not mention Sean Combs?
It automatically put him in themedia.
SPEAKER_02 (21:33):
Something that we spoke about before this podcast
is this idea that you thinkjurors should have been
sequestered.
And I say that because of thetimes that we're in and how
ubiquitous digital media, cellphones are.
televisions, you could get in acab and you didn't mean to see
(21:54):
something that comes across thescreen as a juror, but there it
is in a supermarket.
I mean, there's televisions andaccess to social media just
about everywhere you turn.
Talk to me a little bit aboutwhy you felt that way.
SPEAKER_04 (22:10):
For all of the reasons you just stated, there's
no way that this particular jurywho is dealing with, um,
probably arguably one of thelargest stars in the world is
not going to see a newscast, apodcast.
I literally thought, wouldn't itbe horrible if one of the jurors
turned to the public side andsaw one of the YouTubers that
(22:35):
they watch?
You just never know.
I mean, people for thisparticular jury, they know that
after the jury, they're gonna beable to book interviews,
podcasts, for money, they'regoing to be able to write books.
So I wouldn't be surprised ifsomeone was not forthcoming
about what they viewed or knewabout the case prior to.
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
How do you prepare for covering this trial?
What's a typical week like foryou?
SPEAKER_04 (23:02):
Well, like I said, I got the cheat code now.
Now that I know that I don'thave to show up at the buttcrack
of dawn to get into the eitheractual courtroom or the
overflow, I kind of casuallystroll in late.
every day so that I don't haveto be in the line.
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
And I've seen you in the courtroom a couple of times,
a few times.
And I've seen you in overflowbecause I'm in overflow
occasionally, but I'm usuallyinside the courtroom.
SPEAKER_04 (23:26):
I prefer the overflow.
I don't really like the way thatthe bailiffs talk to you in the
courtroom.
And I like to talk to people.
So that first week it was it wasso great to be in the overflow
room because I was havingconversations with like Gloria
Allred and Lisa Bloom every day.
a lot of attorneys and just laypeople who are interested.
(23:46):
There's a lot of energy aroundthis case.
And I can bring thoseconversations back to my
subscribers.
So now I have an apartment, soI'm not moving.
So that's more comfortable, Ican wake up, go get breakfast,
go to the gym, and just Uber tothe courtroom and just get into
an overflow room verycomfortably.
SPEAKER_02 (24:08):
And when you say you have an apartment, you're not
the first person I've spoken towho sort of has temporarily
relocated so that you can coverthis every day.
What's that been like?
SPEAKER_04 (24:21):
Well, it's very expensive.
It's very expensive.
But it was important for me tohave an apartment that was
secure.
I was told prior to Sean goingto actual jail that that it may
not be safe for me to come toNew York and attend the trial.
And then I got the word afterthat I could come after he was
(24:43):
already in jail.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
So how did you take that?
SPEAKER_04 (24:46):
Seriously?
I've had, I've had behind thescenes conversations with people
who are close to Sean Combs orwho were close to Sean Combs or
who experienced violence at thehands of Sean Combs.
And the general consensus isthat he is very dangerous and he
does take names.
SPEAKER_02 (25:06):
So since making a decision again, it sounds like
you're someone that does notalways listen to what people
tell you and it works out foryou.
You have come to the trial.
You're taking notes.
You've obviously done a numberof videos on your channel about
this trial.
Since that time, have youreceived any type of threats or
(25:30):
concern about your safety sinceappearing now that...
Your face is being shown.
It's not like you come in therewearing a mask or a hat or
you're in a disguise.
SPEAKER_04 (25:40):
No, but when you have intimate conversations with
his alleged victims, you takethat at face value.
So no, my safety is my firstconcern.
I could have easily stayed homeand produced the same content.
But for me and mysubscribership, they felt like
this was the best place for meto be.
(26:01):
And to their credit, they havegiven me money.
I've never asked anyone for anymoney, but they sent money
through like super chats tosoften the blow and some cash
app as well.
SPEAKER_02 (26:17):
Okay.
So some of the people that areyour loyal listeners have helped
to pay for your ability to coverthis trial, which we're in,
we're going into week seven.
But have helped to pay for thecost for you to be there.
So you can say you're in thecourtroom or you're in the
overflow room.
SPEAKER_04 (26:36):
Absolutely.
And I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02 (26:39):
Is that something you imagined would happen even
when you said six months in, youstarted to see that your
subscribers had increased andpeople were really starting to
pay attention and follow you?
I
SPEAKER_04 (26:49):
didn't.
I never imagined that.
I never would have thought thatI would have even amassed
200,000.
I didn't think when I hit 20,000subscribers, I was surprised,
but in terms of the money, Ican't remember how this
particularly came about, butthere was a woman who was
(27:10):
murdered at the hands of herfriend's child's father.
He murdered her and shot the,the the friend and another man
that were there, they werehelping her to pack, to flee her
abuser.
He comes in, he murders her.
I knew somebody who knew thisgirl, another content creator.
(27:34):
And I said, let's do somethingfor the kids.
I had no idea that within maybean hour, there was like$5,000
there just to give to thechildren.
And the point was somethinghorrible happened to your
mother.
let people who you don't know,just say, we see you, we're so
(27:56):
sorry.
And the world is not that bad.
The world is not what you'vejust experienced through a
horrible person.
And so we just gave the kids themoney.
And that was like 5000 within anhour.
My subscribership is verydifferent.
There's no rhyme or reason towhy people follow me.
(28:16):
We have federal judges, we havepeople who who are stay at home
moms, we have, I won't name thefederal judge that came up to
me, but a federal judge did comeup to me and say, not only do I
watch your channel, I use yourcatchphrase all the time.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
Make it make sense.
SPEAKER_04 (28:37):
On the stand.
We have moms, we havegrandmothers in the channel, and
we've kind of turned into thechannel that cares.
I had no idea that they wouldwant me here and would give me
money to soften the blow of thevery expensive apartment rental.
SPEAKER_02 (28:58):
How much is it costing you a week to cover this
trial?
SPEAKER_04 (29:02):
I don't even want to think about it, but I can tell
you that the apartment is closeto eight a month.
Whoa.
That doesn't cover...
SPEAKER_02 (29:12):
Is that eight bedrooms?
No.
SPEAKER_04 (29:14):
It's not even a bedroom.
It's not even a bedroom.
SPEAKER_02 (29:18):
So Where do you go from here?
What happens after the verdict?
When this trial is over, thenwhat?
SPEAKER_04 (29:28):
I can breathe again.
I'm going to continue coveringtrials.
I have this theory that...
I don't know.
This is not my channel, so I'mgoing to watch the things that I
say.
There are other moguls and CEOsthat will be in...
the same courthouse withincoming months.
(29:51):
I will definitely be coveringthose.
I don't know that I'll come herefor that.
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
wait, are you breaking news right now on this
podcast?
SPEAKER_04 (29:58):
I don't I'm nervous.
I don't know if I can saycertain things.
I think that this case is veryimportant to other very
powerful, wealthy men who mighthave the same proclivities.
And it's all coming to surface.
And if this case does not workout for him, some of these
people who are too big to failmight fail.
(30:19):
I don't think he was in italone.
What
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
is the biggest challenge in your role?
Because I know you've talkedabout this being a place where
you can be authentic.
You can be yourself.
People feel like they know you,so therefore they want to know
more about you, but you're alsovery private.
So where's that line?
It seems like a very fine lineto balance.
SPEAKER_04 (30:49):
It is absolutely a fine line.
For my family, I'm veryprotective, so I don't mention
them.
I don't show photos of themunless they want to, especially
with the kids in my family.
I have a studio, and they willcome over, because it's a
separate building.
They will come into the studioand they will want to get on
(31:12):
camera.
And I'm always so nervousbecause although I feel like I
have one of the bettersubscriberships, people are
crazy.
And I would never want to putthem in a space where maybe
someone might say somethingnegative about them or say I
know them or try to find out whothey are.
So I'm private in that way.
(31:32):
But I share very personalstories.
Like a lot of people feel likemaybe I came from a pedigree and
I didn't.
I came from a very small town inLouisiana.
You
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
said people feel like you came from a pedigree?
SPEAKER_04 (31:45):
Yes.
Yes.
People think that I went to anIvy League school.
I went to a state school.
People have all of their ownopinions about me based on the
way that I present.
And I'm like, no, like I comefrom a pedigree.
Very small town in Louisiana.
(32:05):
We had no money.
That's not even a thing.
We lived in a four-room house.
So people don't understand whatI'm saying.
It's five rooms.
It was a den, a kitchen, twobedrooms separated by a
bathroom.
But there were no hallways.
It was just a wall.
SPEAKER_02 (32:26):
So humble beginnings.
SPEAKER_04 (32:28):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (32:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (32:30):
I think if anything...
There are a lot of contentcreators who want to be the only
one or feel like they should bein this space.
But I tell people all the time,start your channel today.
Whatever you have is for you.
So I don't feel competition withother content creators.
And I actually shout them out.
(32:52):
Like, why not check out theircontent?
SPEAKER_02 (32:54):
So that's the advice that you have for anybody that's
considering starting a channelbecause I was, I wanted to know
from your opinion, is it asituation where you feel like
this is not for everyone?
Because it also sounds like ittakes a certain level of
discipline to do this everyweek, to get on your feed for an
hour, to want to reach out tothe resources, I guess, again,
(33:15):
depending on the type of channelthat you want to do, but
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
you're
SPEAKER_02 (33:18):
reading transcripts to people, you're reading
documentation and you'reAllowing people to make sense of
it on their own based on whatwas said.
And some of it's like, you know,you can't make this up.
This happened.
And then this happened.
So is this something that youidentify certain people as?
I don't know if you want tostart your own channel.
(33:40):
Or do you find yourself beinghonest with how much work goes
into it to be at that levelwhere you have subscribers that
want to send you money toactually go cover a case like
this?
SPEAKER_04 (33:53):
I technically don't know how to answer that because
to be a content creator reallyjust takes on turning on a
camera.
You don't need any specificequipment.
As you get more money from it,it makes sense to invest in
yourself and get betterequipment, but anyone can do it.
I'm a person who never wanted tobe in front of the camera and I
just, I am.
There are people who want to bein front of the camera because
(34:15):
they like attention.
There are some people who arecrazy.
There are some people whothey've achieved something so
much more success doing apodcast or doing a YouTube
channel.
There's so many reasons behindit.
I tell everyone, do it if youwant to.
If you feel like in theslightest you have an opinion,
give it to the people.
SPEAKER_02 (34:35):
Do you love what you do now?
I
SPEAKER_04 (34:37):
love when it's fun.
The Diddy content is dark.
It can be difficult at times,especially that I have like
personal issues going on, likepeople around me with health
issues.
It can be dark content, butAgain, it goes back to I feel a
responsibility to cover it.
I feel a responsibility to havevery, very difficult
(34:58):
conversations that a lot ofpeople don't want to have or,
you know, it's taboo to talkabout.
So I add a little bit of levityto it.
And then I also understand thatpeople come to me for escapism.
So I do feel a responsibility.
It can be tough at times.
SPEAKER_02 (35:13):
So when was the last assignment for you that was fun?
SPEAKER_04 (35:17):
You know, if I'm on my YouTube channel and you see
Red Solo Cup, I've probably hada little Casamigos.
And if I can just have an openconversation that's light and
fun about different topics,great.
But like Diddy topics,traditionally for me, they have
been pretty dark.
SPEAKER_02 (35:37):
So what do you do to move through that?
I
SPEAKER_04 (35:43):
have a therapist.
I got a therapist maybe twoyears ago now.
And it's been life changing.
SPEAKER_02 (35:54):
Where do you see yourself five years from now?
Do you think the contentcreation space is sustainable?
I
SPEAKER_04 (36:02):
absolutely think it's sustainable.
However, it makes sense todiversify.
So there'll probably be sometelevision work.
I have not been taking meetingsfor things like documentaries
because I didn't feel like I wasready.
But within five years, Idefinitely see myself doing some
radio, doing some televisionwork, and probably doing some
(36:26):
type of actual charity.
SPEAKER_02 (36:29):
Why is charity so important to you?
Because you mentioned early onthat that's something that you
feel like separates you fromother content creators you have
no problem with.
putting out stories, trying toget money or raise money for
different things.
What is that about?
SPEAKER_04 (36:45):
I'm very blessed to be in this space.
One thing that my mom instilledin me was charity work.
I've done on a personal level,I've worked with the homeless,
the elderly, and kids at thecancer center, but that one was
too taxing on me.
So I had to give it up.
I couldn't be there weekly andsee, you know, children really
(37:08):
going through such a horriblething.
But I've been given a lot.
And I feel like if you've beengiven a lot, you should give
back as much as possible.
And I'm very lucky for thesubscribership that I have
because they want to.
SPEAKER_02 (37:22):
Nice.
Even though you say five yearsfrom now, this is sustainable
for you because you want toexpand your brand, essentially.
How Scared are you or concernedare you of the impact artificial
intelligence will have on all ofthose plans?
SPEAKER_04 (37:46):
I'm not very scared because I've built an audience.
And my audience is there becausethey trust me specifically and
my opinion, even when they don'tagree with me.
For new content creators, it...
should be very scary becausethey can take your mannerisms,
they can take your likeness andwhatever application you use,
(38:09):
whether it's TikTok or meta, orthey can, sometimes they will
send you things asking if AI canuse your content.
And once you do that, you arebasically giving up all rights
to your likeness and the thingsthat you say and your
mannerisms.
So they can produce a newer,younger, better version of you.
(38:32):
It's extremely scary for contentcreators.
And I think more people shouldbe scared in general.
Because if AI can replace acontent creator, they can
replace you.
They're already replacing somecall centers.
They're replacing so manydifferent careers.
SPEAKER_02 (38:54):
I am
SPEAKER_04 (38:54):
not a fan.
SPEAKER_02 (38:55):
I was in Columbus, Ohio this past weekend.
I ordered from my favoriteplace, Donato's Pizza.
It was a computer.
Hi, thank you for callingDonato's.
What would you like?
What was that again?
And this was to get to the localpizza shop that was near the
airport.
I never talked to a human.
SPEAKER_04 (39:15):
Imagine when we get to a space where AI sounds so
authentic, you can't tell it'sAI.
That's the last step.
If they can have your likenesswith no blemishes, no signs of
aging, and use all of your samequips and jokes and things like
(39:38):
that, that's very scary.
It should scare people.
There is a content creator thatI know who's on YouTube who was
offered$10,000 to give hercatalog to an AI company.
She's a comedian.
they would have then been ableto reproduce her and she would
have only been selling it for$10,000.
(39:58):
That is extremely scary.
SPEAKER_02 (40:03):
What do you want people to take away from content
creators, social mediainfluencers who are covering
what some of us are covering inthe legacy media news space?
What do you think the takeawayis?
SPEAKER_04 (40:21):
I would just advise to consume from content creators
who you trust, but also look atthe news.
And if you're very interested,look into the merits of the case
yourself.
I have so many people who callme and say, well, did this
happen?
And I'm like, no, Young Miamiwas not in the court.
(40:43):
And I've actually gotten introuble with that because now
what happens is people will hearsomething from another youtuber
or another social media personand they will send money via a
super chat to ask me a questionand i think it's just an
innocuous question that ends upbeing me fact checking another
content creator so i always justsay critically think and for my
(41:04):
subscribers they know i don'twant you to think like me i want
you to hear my opinion but drawyour own conclusions and they
know that so they'll argue inthe chat respectfully and i love
it like That's the spice oflife.
I'm not a content creator whowants you to think one way.
I don't like groupthink.
And I think that has separatedmy channel and my subscribers in
(41:26):
a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_02 (41:26):
How much has your subscription grown because of
this trial?
SPEAKER_04 (41:29):
Very early on, it grew about like 100,000.
But in terms of the actualtrial, I think maybe only like
6,000 or 7,000.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (41:42):
But when you first started covering it from the...
When you say early on, are wetalking the filing of the Cassie
lawsuit, Cassie Ventura lawsuit?
SPEAKER_04 (41:51):
Yes, I would say around maybe like 100,000.
SPEAKER_02 (41:54):
Well, listen, we appreciate your time.
We thank you for helping us makeit make sense.
Good luck to you as you continueto grow as a content creator.
And thanks for just spendingtime with us to help break down
sort of the behind the scenesand your thoughts about what the
future looks like.
SPEAKER_04 (42:12):
Well, thank you for having me.
And thank you for what you do.
I don't think that journalistsget enough credit, honestly.
It's a lot of work.
And I just think that not enoughcredit is given.
SPEAKER_02 (42:24):
Well, I appreciate that.
I really do.
All
SPEAKER_04 (42:28):
right.
Well, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02 (42:31):
And one more thing.
This experience covering thetrial alongside influencers and
YouTubers has taught me there isroom for it all.
Don't get me wrong, there is anart to storytelling.
I believe and was taught thatclear and concise writing,
beginning, a middle, and end,they're foundational.
It's part of the process.
(42:52):
That's what makes good writing.
That's what makes a good story.
But in a world of constantconsumption of media, finding
and embracing new ways to shareinformation is the key, to me,
to surviving this new landscapewhere legacy is not enough alone
to last.
I thank you so much forlistening.
(43:12):
Please follow me on Instagramand TikTok.
I am that reporter JD.
Again, I am that reporter JD.
DM me if you have any questionsand maybe we can address them on
the next one.
Until then, have a blessed day.
Hopefully we'll see you backhere once again.
(43:38):
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to help, please, please,
please spread the word.
Tell your friends, tell yourfamily, encourage them to
listen.
You can also follow Rate andReview on Apple Podcasts and
Spotify.
And just like Uber, five-starreviews are very much
appreciated.
I definitely don't feel like Diddy's going to do
life in prison.
I say 10 to 15 years, honestly.
He might even walk.
The women who have taken thestand, I don't believe that
their testimonies were strongenough to put Diddy away for
life in prison.
SPEAKER_00 (00:17):
I think the defense, and this is just a personal on
my own accord, but the reasonwhy Diddy had these women having
so many freak-offs and so manyinteractions with these men is
because he wanted to be the onehaving these interactions with
the men.
SPEAKER_02 (00:36):
We are getting close to the end.
During week six of the UnitedStates government versus Sean
Combs, the federal judge excusedjuror number six, a 41-year-old
Black man who gave inconsistentstatements about where he lives.
I'm Jerika Duncan, a CBS Newsnational correspondent and
anchor of the CBS Weekend News.
(00:58):
Welcome to my podcast, I Am ThatReporter.
Thank you so much.
(01:23):
According to the government,Combs abused, threatened, and
coerced women and others aroundhim for decades to fulfill his
sexual desires, protect hisreputation, and conceal his
conduct.
The government says Combs reliedon employees, resources, and
influence from his multifacetedbusiness empire that he led and
(01:43):
controlled, creating a criminalenterprise whose members and
associates engaged in andattempted to engage in among
other crimes, sex trafficking,forced labor, kidnapping, arson,
bribery, and obstruction ofjustice.
Combs has denied any wrongdoingand has pleaded not guilty to
all charges.
(02:03):
This week, I want to talk aboutsomething I noticed the second
week of the trial, and that isthe number of influencers,
content creators, and YouTuberswho were informing people in
their own unique way about thistrial and have grown their
audiences who can't get enough.
The New York Times, theWashington Post, the Wall Street
(02:25):
Journal, they've all donestories about it.
In a June 16th HollywoodReporter article titled Outside
the Diddy Trial, A New MediaGuard Rules, Kevin Dolak writes,
the trial's live streamingplayers each come with a unique
delivery style that's lesspolished or familiar and rife
with the slang du jour.
(02:45):
Among this gang of streetjournalists are the sometimes
frantic and frazzled, but moreoften than not sharp and
informative explainers, likeYouTuber Tisa Tells, the
conspiratorial voice ofFamertube, the comedy trial
coverage of first-timer SamCrouppen, who has 510,000
followers and a growing TikTokfan base, and the wildly popular
(03:08):
Rotten Mango, a.k.a.
true crime podcaster StephanieHsu.
who has taken up the Diddy trialand is running with it so
successfully, she overtook JoeRogan as the top podcaster on
YouTube.
I actually interviewed Sueoutside the courthouse on May
22nd.
Listen to what she had to say.
SPEAKER_03 (03:29):
Yeah, I'm Stephanie Sue of Rotten Mango.
I do a true crime podcast.
And now this is the first trialI'm ever sitting on ever, like
ever.
And it's the most intense thingI've ever experienced in my
life.
SPEAKER_02 (03:42):
What made you want to cover it in this way?
Yeah, so
SPEAKER_03 (03:49):
we did like a four part series on this case.
I think like collectively,probably close to nine hours of
video content out there.
And I just like I can't I can'tget it out of my head.
I mean, I spent so long justlooking at all the lawsuits,
going through it and filming.
And I'm like, I'm so investedthat I just want to see what
(04:09):
happens.
And I think the experience is sounique.
And I know you guys have coveredso many.
So I'm like such a new peer.
SPEAKER_02 (04:19):
And while it's fun for her, it's really no laughing
matter.
Stephanie Hsu has over 5 millionsubscribers on YouTube.
Due to safety and privacyconcerns, the creator of this
(04:42):
YouTube channel has requestedthat we not give his name.
So today to help us understandthe story outside the trial, I'm
joined by the creator of Make ItMake Sense, the YouTube channel
which has over 200,000subscribers.
Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_04 (04:58):
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (04:59):
Thank you so much for joining me.
So I think for me and so manypeople I've spoken to about the
importance of social mediacovering this trial, how did you
get your start?
SPEAKER_04 (05:11):
It was the weirdest thing.
This was not supposed to be mylife.
I completely recognize that.
I was interviewing for a newposition during COVID and you
had to take 10 questions andbriefly answer them and then
submit those via video.
(05:31):
And it took around six hours.
SPEAKER_02 (05:34):
What?
SPEAKER_04 (05:34):
Because I didn't like the way that I presented on
camera.
And I had a friend who had like500 subscribers and she was
like, come on my channel just toget a little used to being on
camera.
So I was like, okay, sure.
And she dropped.
And it was just dead air.
So had I not actually startedtalking to the audience or
(05:55):
engaging, it would have beendead air.
And that's literally how I gotmy start.
I started my own channel rightafter that.
I still don't technically likethe way I present, which sounds
crazy since this is now mycareer.
SPEAKER_02 (06:08):
What is it specifically?
Because I kind of can understandwhat you're saying about that.
There are things that I'velooked at of myself and I'm
like, oh, I sound weird or...
I don't seem comfortable there.
Is there something specific foryou?
I
SPEAKER_04 (06:23):
don't watch one of my videos.
SPEAKER_02 (06:26):
Oh, really?
Once you do it, you just
SPEAKER_04 (06:28):
put
SPEAKER_02 (06:28):
it out there?
Mm-hmm.
When did you realize that youcould do this as a profession?
Because to hear you say,pandemic time, you're looking
for this job, you kind ofstumble upon this, and then you
realize, wait a minute, this iskind of cool.
I like doing this enough thatI'm going to pursue it.
I'm going to start my ownchannel.
SPEAKER_04 (06:48):
Technically, it's as a smaller content creator, you
don't make a lot of money, but Ialways set goals for myself.
And I said, well, I'm going todo this weekly.
And within three months or fourmonths, if I'm not making enough
money to pay a car note or pay abill, then I'm not going to do
this weekly.
Cause it's a lot of time, likeputting together a show, finding
(07:10):
an audience.
It did not happen in threemonths, but within like six or
seven months, I was able to paya car note and I was like, okay,
This is something.
But my channel actually took offat a really low point in my
life.
My sister was very, very ill,and I was a caregiver, and I'm
in corporate America.
I'm working sometimes six, sevendays a week, overtime and
(07:33):
caregiving.
And my channel took off.
Literally, she was ill thatJanuary, moved into our home,
and my channel took off.
SPEAKER_02 (07:45):
What were you talking about at that time that
you think...
people were resonating with whatyou had to say?
SPEAKER_04 (07:51):
I've always been a person interested in like going
past surface level information.
And believe it or not, KimZolciak from the Bravo show Real
Housewives was having legaltrouble with her house.
And I went in, I pulled all thecourt records, which technically
a lot of people were not doingon YouTube at the time.
(08:11):
However, they do it now.
But yes, so that's really how itstarted.
I started pulling court records.
I hired a private eye forcertain things.
And I had an attorney who wouldassist me before I knew how to
do it myself.
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
So I want to get into a little bit of what we're
covering.
You know, it is the trial of theyear.
Some would say of the century.
They haven't seen.
And I actually spoke to somebodywho talked about covering OJ
Simpson and saying that thisfelt like that in terms of the
energy.
But When you think about thethings that you have discussed
or covered on your channel, whythis trial?
(08:49):
Why invest the time and theresources in covering Sean
Combs?
SPEAKER_04 (08:56):
I'll just be blunt.
A lot of people that arecovering it are covering it as
if Cassie was somehow deservingof what she got.
And I chose to amplify thevoices of victims and survivors.
once some of the survivorsstarted reaching out to me, then
(09:17):
it started feeling like aresponsibility.
SPEAKER_02 (09:19):
Like,
SPEAKER_04 (09:21):
definitely, I don't understand the way people think.
So it became a responsibilityfor me to break it down in a
more digestible way so that youcould see that there was, you
can't glorify celebrity, youcan't glorify these people's
lives, because you feel likeThey have a certain amount of
(09:42):
money or access to things.
No, we have to talk aboutconsent.
We have to talk about rapeculture.
We have to talk about thesethings so that it can be a
learning experience.
So that's why I took on thechallenge.
I had no idea there would be somany civil complaints.
I had no idea that this wouldbasically take over a good
(10:02):
percentage of the things that Irun on my channel.
SPEAKER_02 (10:07):
So what do you think about this attention influencers
are getting at this time andcomparing it to legacy media?
I
SPEAKER_04 (10:19):
think it's very dangerous.
Although I try to have somejournalistic integrity on my
platform, you can sit in thecourtroom with someone who has a
million subscribers and they'llleave the courtroom and you'll
see them outside talking andthey'll just say things like,
(10:39):
Young Miami was in the courtroomtoday.
SPEAKER_02 (10:42):
You've heard that?
SPEAKER_04 (10:43):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (10:45):
Okay, we know that's not accurate.
SPEAKER_04 (10:47):
That person does not have a million followers, but
whatever amount of followersthey have, they're listening
because that's where they'regetting their news from.
So if you don't have anyintegrity in what you're saying,
then it's just mass spread lies.
I think it's very dangerous.
SPEAKER_02 (11:06):
So isn't it up to the people?
who decide who they want tofollow or watch.
SPEAKER_04 (11:12):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (11:13):
What they believe, like you can't make, what I
think about social media when Ilook at this landscape, if you
will, people are going to go towhere they think someone is
giving them the real news.
There are some criticalconsumers who will look at
various platforms, right?
(11:34):
Like I personally like lookingat all of the different
networks.
I don't necessarily just stay inmy CBS bubble.
And I think the same is true forpeople who consume on social
media.
Not everybody, but I do havehope that there are some folks
that are looking more criticallyor even, I think it's
(11:56):
interesting when somebody willadd a detail that I didn't put
in a social media video, thatit's not that I didn't know
that, But I just didn't want itto be 10 minutes long.
And I decide what five bulletpoints am I going to talk about?
SPEAKER_04 (12:11):
Yeah, I guess if I'm doing short form content, I do
that.
But in terms of this trial, Idon't.
Sometimes my lives are an hourand a half.
I still think it's dangerous.
And we have seen a shift fromlegacy media to new media.
And I think the pendulum swingsboth ways.
If you recall when they weregoing to take away TikTok, they
(12:36):
were saying they're taking awayTikTok because TikTok is the
only outlet that really allowspeople to speak the truth.
But a lot of those truths areconspiracy theories.
So it's not necessarily thatyou're getting unfiltered truth
and you're getting someone'sopinion or you're getting
somebody's who is lying becausea lie is more interesting than
(12:58):
the truth.
And I think that that is verydangerous.
That's why I have a lot ofrespect for legacy media because
you guys, well, some networks.
SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
You can say you have a lot of respect for CBS.
It's okay.
It's a shameless plug here.
It's okay.
SPEAKER_04 (13:14):
Some networks operate with integrity, but I
don't, I think it's dangerous.
I think that I'm trying not tosay any content creators' names
to give an example, but justfill in the blank with whatever
your favorite content creator isthat gives you the most
(13:36):
salacious information.
Everybody skews whatever way,but-
SPEAKER_02 (13:44):
So which way do you skew?
I
SPEAKER_04 (13:47):
acknowledge that I'm giving an opinion.
I acknowledge that sometimes Ihold a bias.
But my subscribers expect that,for example, this trial, I'm
going to give them an unbiasedopinion.
Although I do not like Diddy asa person, I don't like anyone
who puts their hands on women.
If the defense has a good day,I'm going to tell my subscribers
(14:09):
when I feel like what they didin court was effective.
SPEAKER_02 (14:14):
So when it comes to legacy media, because I kind of
want to stay there, who do youfollow?
SPEAKER_04 (14:19):
MSNBC, CNN.
I also watch.
I also watch Fox News.
I always put CBS, ABC, and NBC.
I group them together, but Iconsume everything.
I feel like that gives me a morerounded opinion because I do
(14:41):
follow everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
Do you consider yourself a journalist?
SPEAKER_04 (14:45):
Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_02 (14:47):
Why not?
SPEAKER_04 (14:49):
I think that journalists go to school for
that.
I think that journalists...
There's a lot of work thatlegacy media puts in.
Somebody with a microphone whohas an opinion, I think it's
great.
I'm one of those people, but Ido have a certain amount of
respect for legacy media.
SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Well, as you probably know, based on covering
legacy media, things areshifting.
And I think for us, it's aboutbeing in all of those different
spaces as well as on broadcasttelevision.
That Hollywood Reporter articlethat I mentioned earlier,
according to a Pew Researchstudy, it said 86% of Americans
(15:26):
turn to digital devices fornews, with two-thirds using news
websites and apps and aroundhalf getting news directly from
social media channels.
SPEAKER_04 (15:38):
Based on my response, do you see any danger
in that?
SPEAKER_02 (15:43):
I think people have always...
made a decision based on theirown values to follow certain
newspapers before there wastelevision, radio stations, some
that have an agenda, whetherit's to preserve certain things
(16:04):
the way they are, or people thatare advocating for change and
evolution and revolution.
So I think in some ways, thisisn't that new in terms of
people having choices as to whatthey're going to listen to or
what they're going to subscribeto.
I just think we are inundatednonstop with this constant play
(16:26):
of different places to get yournews from that it could become
overwhelming.
And we now have algorithms too,which is a little different
because it's going to continueto feed you whatever you're
liking.
So in that regard, it can be ifyou're not a conscious consumer
or someone that's open tohearing other sides or other
(16:47):
perspectives.
I've been told I probably givepeople too much credit when it
comes to believing that theywill not research, but reach out
to not just one particularspace.
And to the name of your channel,Make It Make Sense, I think
(17:09):
you're right.
People ask that question all thetime.
And sometimes it's a livedexperience.
that informs you more than whatyou're going to tell me.
You could tell me that there arelollipops falling from the sky.
I've never seen that.
So I'm not going to trust you.
I just think that maybe you'rejust being funny.
SPEAKER_04 (17:29):
And some people might ask the location so they
could pick one up off thestreet.
SPEAKER_02 (17:34):
And what happens when they never get that
lollipop?
SPEAKER_04 (17:37):
They still believe it.
SPEAKER_02 (17:39):
Yeah.
I guess because I'm in thisfield and I would love for it to
be around a lot longer.
I'm actually more fascinated,and this is why...
I wanted to do this segment.
I'm fascinated by seeing thatthere's really a lot of room for
a lot of different opinions andways of telling stories.
(18:00):
I'm also interested in howpeople are able to quit their
jobs and have, you know, someonelike a Stephanie Sue, 5 million
subscribers, right?
You've got 200,000 subscribers.
That's not what most peoplehave.
And then you're able to monetizethat.
So I find all of that like superfascinating.
But this case has really startedsort of brought that to light?
(18:22):
Because anytime you have, youknow, the Hollywood Reporter,
the Wall Street Journal, the NewYork Times, they've all covered
this story on some level, andhaving covered other trials,
I've never seen this before.
Have you?
No.
SPEAKER_04 (18:35):
I do think that this is the trial of the century.
It's way more than just watercooler talk.
People are having in-depthconversations about consent and
rape culture, and I'm going tocontinue to say that because I
don't think that people are evenaware that this trial is
challenging the way that theysee rape culture.
SPEAKER_02 (18:55):
Now,
SPEAKER_04 (18:56):
maybe you can't talk about this at work, or maybe you
can't listen to my podcast atwork if you don't have your
earphones on, but that's justthe content.
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
No, I mean, like I said, I'm a consumer of a lot of
different news and I'm alwaysinterested to hear different
perspectives.
And I think anytime you have acase, whether it's a Sean Combs
or the second trial recently ofHarvey Weinstein, you know, or
the, you know, GhislaineMaxwell, Jeffrey Epstein, the
list goes on.
I think anytime thoseconversations are being had, it
(19:27):
elevates something that maybe weweren't talking about 10, 15, 20
years ago in this way.
SPEAKER_04 (19:33):
I think the issue with Sean Combs is he's always
wanted media attention.
You weren't really seeingproducers wanting to be in music
videos like he was with Biggie.
You weren't really seeing themcultivate an image so that they
could be the celebrity when theywere supposed to be the CEO.
(19:54):
This is what he wanted.
And that's why this trial hasbecome so much bigger than
Epstein or who's the other guy?
SPEAKER_02 (20:03):
Harvey Weinstein?
SPEAKER_04 (20:04):
Yes.
Weinstein.
This is so much bigger becauseSean Combs, marginally talented,
wanted to be the star.
He wanted this.
And now, unfortunately, becauseyou are such a public figure and
you are fighting to stay apublic figure at, I think he's
around 54, 55?
55.
(20:24):
Yeah.
Now, this is the end result.
When you go down, the worldwants to know because you wanted
to be a public figure at allcosts.
SPEAKER_02 (20:35):
How do you think this ends for him?
SPEAKER_04 (20:37):
I hope he gets some jail time.
I hope he gets jail time.
And if he doesn't, I will lookat the culture as a whole with a
different lens.
If you can sit and listen to themerits of the case, and decide
that this man is not guilty,then what does that say for our
(21:00):
society?
SPEAKER_02 (21:00):
What if he is found guilty but receives a pardon
from the president?
SPEAKER_04 (21:06):
I don't think, and this is just my personal
opinion, I don't think thatTrump will pardon him.
I think that Trump chose tothrow that out into the
atmosphere because he is verygood at marketing himself.
And that particular week he haddone several buzzworthy things
and they were all overshadowedby Sean Combs trial.
(21:26):
So why not mention Sean Combs?
It automatically put him in themedia.
SPEAKER_02 (21:33):
Something that we spoke about before this podcast
is this idea that you thinkjurors should have been
sequestered.
And I say that because of thetimes that we're in and how
ubiquitous digital media, cellphones are.
televisions, you could get in acab and you didn't mean to see
(21:54):
something that comes across thescreen as a juror, but there it
is in a supermarket.
I mean, there's televisions andaccess to social media just
about everywhere you turn.
Talk to me a little bit aboutwhy you felt that way.
SPEAKER_04 (22:10):
For all of the reasons you just stated, there's
no way that this particular jurywho is dealing with, um,
probably arguably one of thelargest stars in the world is
not going to see a newscast, apodcast.
I literally thought, wouldn't itbe horrible if one of the jurors
turned to the public side andsaw one of the YouTubers that
(22:35):
they watch?
You just never know.
I mean, people for thisparticular jury, they know that
after the jury, they're gonna beable to book interviews,
podcasts, for money, they'regoing to be able to write books.
So I wouldn't be surprised ifsomeone was not forthcoming
about what they viewed or knewabout the case prior to.
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
How do you prepare for covering this trial?
What's a typical week like foryou?
SPEAKER_04 (23:02):
Well, like I said, I got the cheat code now.
Now that I know that I don'thave to show up at the buttcrack
of dawn to get into the eitheractual courtroom or the
overflow, I kind of casuallystroll in late.
every day so that I don't haveto be in the line.
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
And I've seen you in the courtroom a couple of times,
a few times.
And I've seen you in overflowbecause I'm in overflow
occasionally, but I'm usuallyinside the courtroom.
SPEAKER_04 (23:26):
I prefer the overflow.
I don't really like the way thatthe bailiffs talk to you in the
courtroom.
And I like to talk to people.
So that first week it was it wasso great to be in the overflow
room because I was havingconversations with like Gloria
Allred and Lisa Bloom every day.
a lot of attorneys and just laypeople who are interested.
(23:46):
There's a lot of energy aroundthis case.
And I can bring thoseconversations back to my
subscribers.
So now I have an apartment, soI'm not moving.
So that's more comfortable, Ican wake up, go get breakfast,
go to the gym, and just Uber tothe courtroom and just get into
an overflow room verycomfortably.
SPEAKER_02 (24:08):
And when you say you have an apartment, you're not
the first person I've spoken towho sort of has temporarily
relocated so that you can coverthis every day.
What's that been like?
SPEAKER_04 (24:21):
Well, it's very expensive.
It's very expensive.
But it was important for me tohave an apartment that was
secure.
I was told prior to Sean goingto actual jail that that it may
not be safe for me to come toNew York and attend the trial.
And then I got the word afterthat I could come after he was
(24:43):
already in jail.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
So how did you take that?
SPEAKER_04 (24:46):
Seriously?
I've had, I've had behind thescenes conversations with people
who are close to Sean Combs orwho were close to Sean Combs or
who experienced violence at thehands of Sean Combs.
And the general consensus isthat he is very dangerous and he
does take names.
SPEAKER_02 (25:06):
So since making a decision again, it sounds like
you're someone that does notalways listen to what people
tell you and it works out foryou.
You have come to the trial.
You're taking notes.
You've obviously done a numberof videos on your channel about
this trial.
Since that time, have youreceived any type of threats or
(25:30):
concern about your safety sinceappearing now that...
Your face is being shown.
It's not like you come in therewearing a mask or a hat or
you're in a disguise.
SPEAKER_04 (25:40):
No, but when you have intimate conversations with
his alleged victims, you takethat at face value.
So no, my safety is my firstconcern.
I could have easily stayed homeand produced the same content.
But for me and mysubscribership, they felt like
this was the best place for meto be.
(26:01):
And to their credit, they havegiven me money.
I've never asked anyone for anymoney, but they sent money
through like super chats tosoften the blow and some cash
app as well.
SPEAKER_02 (26:17):
Okay.
So some of the people that areyour loyal listeners have helped
to pay for your ability to coverthis trial, which we're in,
we're going into week seven.
But have helped to pay for thecost for you to be there.
So you can say you're in thecourtroom or you're in the
overflow room.
SPEAKER_04 (26:36):
Absolutely.
And I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02 (26:39):
Is that something you imagined would happen even
when you said six months in, youstarted to see that your
subscribers had increased andpeople were really starting to
pay attention and follow you?
I
SPEAKER_04 (26:49):
didn't.
I never imagined that.
I never would have thought thatI would have even amassed
200,000.
I didn't think when I hit 20,000subscribers, I was surprised,
but in terms of the money, Ican't remember how this
particularly came about, butthere was a woman who was
(27:10):
murdered at the hands of herfriend's child's father.
He murdered her and shot the,the the friend and another man
that were there, they werehelping her to pack, to flee her
abuser.
He comes in, he murders her.
I knew somebody who knew thisgirl, another content creator.
(27:34):
And I said, let's do somethingfor the kids.
I had no idea that within maybean hour, there was like$5,000
there just to give to thechildren.
And the point was somethinghorrible happened to your
mother.
let people who you don't know,just say, we see you, we're so
(27:56):
sorry.
And the world is not that bad.
The world is not what you'vejust experienced through a
horrible person.
And so we just gave the kids themoney.
And that was like 5000 within anhour.
My subscribership is verydifferent.
There's no rhyme or reason towhy people follow me.
(28:16):
We have federal judges, we havepeople who who are stay at home
moms, we have, I won't name thefederal judge that came up to
me, but a federal judge did comeup to me and say, not only do I
watch your channel, I use yourcatchphrase all the time.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
Make it make sense.
SPEAKER_04 (28:37):
On the stand.
We have moms, we havegrandmothers in the channel, and
we've kind of turned into thechannel that cares.
I had no idea that they wouldwant me here and would give me
money to soften the blow of thevery expensive apartment rental.
SPEAKER_02 (28:58):
How much is it costing you a week to cover this
trial?
SPEAKER_04 (29:02):
I don't even want to think about it, but I can tell
you that the apartment is closeto eight a month.
Whoa.
That doesn't cover...
SPEAKER_02 (29:12):
Is that eight bedrooms?
No.
SPEAKER_04 (29:14):
It's not even a bedroom.
It's not even a bedroom.
SPEAKER_02 (29:18):
So Where do you go from here?
What happens after the verdict?
When this trial is over, thenwhat?
SPEAKER_04 (29:28):
I can breathe again.
I'm going to continue coveringtrials.
I have this theory that...
I don't know.
This is not my channel, so I'mgoing to watch the things that I
say.
There are other moguls and CEOsthat will be in...
the same courthouse withincoming months.
(29:51):
I will definitely be coveringthose.
I don't know that I'll come herefor that.
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
wait, are you breaking news right now on this
podcast?
SPEAKER_04 (29:58):
I don't I'm nervous.
I don't know if I can saycertain things.
I think that this case is veryimportant to other very
powerful, wealthy men who mighthave the same proclivities.
And it's all coming to surface.
And if this case does not workout for him, some of these
people who are too big to failmight fail.
(30:19):
I don't think he was in italone.
What
SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
is the biggest challenge in your role?
Because I know you've talkedabout this being a place where
you can be authentic.
You can be yourself.
People feel like they know you,so therefore they want to know
more about you, but you're alsovery private.
So where's that line?
It seems like a very fine lineto balance.
SPEAKER_04 (30:49):
It is absolutely a fine line.
For my family, I'm veryprotective, so I don't mention
them.
I don't show photos of themunless they want to, especially
with the kids in my family.
I have a studio, and they willcome over, because it's a
separate building.
They will come into the studioand they will want to get on
(31:12):
camera.
And I'm always so nervousbecause although I feel like I
have one of the bettersubscriberships, people are
crazy.
And I would never want to putthem in a space where maybe
someone might say somethingnegative about them or say I
know them or try to find out whothey are.
So I'm private in that way.
(31:32):
But I share very personalstories.
Like a lot of people feel likemaybe I came from a pedigree and
I didn't.
I came from a very small town inLouisiana.
You
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
said people feel like you came from a pedigree?
SPEAKER_04 (31:45):
Yes.
Yes.
People think that I went to anIvy League school.
I went to a state school.
People have all of their ownopinions about me based on the
way that I present.
And I'm like, no, like I comefrom a pedigree.
Very small town in Louisiana.
(32:05):
We had no money.
That's not even a thing.
We lived in a four-room house.
So people don't understand whatI'm saying.
It's five rooms.
It was a den, a kitchen, twobedrooms separated by a
bathroom.
But there were no hallways.
It was just a wall.
SPEAKER_02 (32:26):
So humble beginnings.
SPEAKER_04 (32:28):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (32:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (32:30):
I think if anything...
There are a lot of contentcreators who want to be the only
one or feel like they should bein this space.
But I tell people all the time,start your channel today.
Whatever you have is for you.
So I don't feel competition withother content creators.
And I actually shout them out.
(32:52):
Like, why not check out theircontent?
SPEAKER_02 (32:54):
So that's the advice that you have for anybody that's
considering starting a channelbecause I was, I wanted to know
from your opinion, is it asituation where you feel like
this is not for everyone?
Because it also sounds like ittakes a certain level of
discipline to do this everyweek, to get on your feed for an
hour, to want to reach out tothe resources, I guess, again,
(33:15):
depending on the type of channelthat you want to do, but
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
you're
SPEAKER_02 (33:18):
reading transcripts to people, you're reading
documentation and you'reAllowing people to make sense of
it on their own based on whatwas said.
And some of it's like, you know,you can't make this up.
This happened.
And then this happened.
So is this something that youidentify certain people as?
I don't know if you want tostart your own channel.
(33:40):
Or do you find yourself beinghonest with how much work goes
into it to be at that levelwhere you have subscribers that
want to send you money toactually go cover a case like
this?
SPEAKER_04 (33:53):
I technically don't know how to answer that because
to be a content creator reallyjust takes on turning on a
camera.
You don't need any specificequipment.
As you get more money from it,it makes sense to invest in
yourself and get betterequipment, but anyone can do it.
I'm a person who never wanted tobe in front of the camera and I
just, I am.
There are people who want to bein front of the camera because
(34:15):
they like attention.
There are some people who arecrazy.
There are some people whothey've achieved something so
much more success doing apodcast or doing a YouTube
channel.
There's so many reasons behindit.
I tell everyone, do it if youwant to.
If you feel like in theslightest you have an opinion,
give it to the people.
SPEAKER_02 (34:35):
Do you love what you do now?
I
SPEAKER_04 (34:37):
love when it's fun.
The Diddy content is dark.
It can be difficult at times,especially that I have like
personal issues going on, likepeople around me with health
issues.
It can be dark content, butAgain, it goes back to I feel a
responsibility to cover it.
I feel a responsibility to havevery, very difficult
(34:58):
conversations that a lot ofpeople don't want to have or,
you know, it's taboo to talkabout.
So I add a little bit of levityto it.
And then I also understand thatpeople come to me for escapism.
So I do feel a responsibility.
It can be tough at times.
SPEAKER_02 (35:13):
So when was the last assignment for you that was fun?
SPEAKER_04 (35:17):
You know, if I'm on my YouTube channel and you see
Red Solo Cup, I've probably hada little Casamigos.
And if I can just have an openconversation that's light and
fun about different topics,great.
But like Diddy topics,traditionally for me, they have
been pretty dark.
SPEAKER_02 (35:37):
So what do you do to move through that?
I
SPEAKER_04 (35:43):
have a therapist.
I got a therapist maybe twoyears ago now.
And it's been life changing.
SPEAKER_02 (35:54):
Where do you see yourself five years from now?
Do you think the contentcreation space is sustainable?
I
SPEAKER_04 (36:02):
absolutely think it's sustainable.
However, it makes sense todiversify.
So there'll probably be sometelevision work.
I have not been taking meetingsfor things like documentaries
because I didn't feel like I wasready.
But within five years, Idefinitely see myself doing some
radio, doing some televisionwork, and probably doing some
(36:26):
type of actual charity.
SPEAKER_02 (36:29):
Why is charity so important to you?
Because you mentioned early onthat that's something that you
feel like separates you fromother content creators you have
no problem with.
putting out stories, trying toget money or raise money for
different things.
What is that about?
SPEAKER_04 (36:45):
I'm very blessed to be in this space.
One thing that my mom instilledin me was charity work.
I've done on a personal level,I've worked with the homeless,
the elderly, and kids at thecancer center, but that one was
too taxing on me.
So I had to give it up.
I couldn't be there weekly andsee, you know, children really
(37:08):
going through such a horriblething.
But I've been given a lot.
And I feel like if you've beengiven a lot, you should give
back as much as possible.
And I'm very lucky for thesubscribership that I have
because they want to.
SPEAKER_02 (37:22):
Nice.
Even though you say five yearsfrom now, this is sustainable
for you because you want toexpand your brand, essentially.
How Scared are you or concernedare you of the impact artificial
intelligence will have on all ofthose plans?
SPEAKER_04 (37:46):
I'm not very scared because I've built an audience.
And my audience is there becausethey trust me specifically and
my opinion, even when they don'tagree with me.
For new content creators, it...
should be very scary becausethey can take your mannerisms,
they can take your likeness andwhatever application you use,
(38:09):
whether it's TikTok or meta, orthey can, sometimes they will
send you things asking if AI canuse your content.
And once you do that, you arebasically giving up all rights
to your likeness and the thingsthat you say and your
mannerisms.
So they can produce a newer,younger, better version of you.
(38:32):
It's extremely scary for contentcreators.
And I think more people shouldbe scared in general.
Because if AI can replace acontent creator, they can
replace you.
They're already replacing somecall centers.
They're replacing so manydifferent careers.
SPEAKER_02 (38:54):
I am
SPEAKER_04 (38:54):
not a fan.
SPEAKER_02 (38:55):
I was in Columbus, Ohio this past weekend.
I ordered from my favoriteplace, Donato's Pizza.
It was a computer.
Hi, thank you for callingDonato's.
What would you like?
What was that again?
And this was to get to the localpizza shop that was near the
airport.
I never talked to a human.
SPEAKER_04 (39:15):
Imagine when we get to a space where AI sounds so
authentic, you can't tell it'sAI.
That's the last step.
If they can have your likenesswith no blemishes, no signs of
aging, and use all of your samequips and jokes and things like
(39:38):
that, that's very scary.
It should scare people.
There is a content creator thatI know who's on YouTube who was
offered$10,000 to give hercatalog to an AI company.
She's a comedian.
they would have then been ableto reproduce her and she would
have only been selling it for$10,000.
(39:58):
That is extremely scary.
SPEAKER_02 (40:03):
What do you want people to take away from content
creators, social mediainfluencers who are covering
what some of us are covering inthe legacy media news space?
What do you think the takeawayis?
SPEAKER_04 (40:21):
I would just advise to consume from content creators
who you trust, but also look atthe news.
And if you're very interested,look into the merits of the case
yourself.
I have so many people who callme and say, well, did this
happen?
And I'm like, no, Young Miamiwas not in the court.
(40:43):
And I've actually gotten introuble with that because now
what happens is people will hearsomething from another youtuber
or another social media personand they will send money via a
super chat to ask me a questionand i think it's just an
innocuous question that ends upbeing me fact checking another
content creator so i always justsay critically think and for my
(41:04):
subscribers they know i don'twant you to think like me i want
you to hear my opinion but drawyour own conclusions and they
know that so they'll argue inthe chat respectfully and i love
it like That's the spice oflife.
I'm not a content creator whowants you to think one way.
I don't like groupthink.
And I think that has separatedmy channel and my subscribers in
(41:26):
a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_02 (41:26):
How much has your subscription grown because of
this trial?
SPEAKER_04 (41:29):
Very early on, it grew about like 100,000.
But in terms of the actualtrial, I think maybe only like
6,000 or 7,000.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (41:42):
But when you first started covering it from the...
When you say early on, are wetalking the filing of the Cassie
lawsuit, Cassie Ventura lawsuit?
SPEAKER_04 (41:51):
Yes, I would say around maybe like 100,000.
SPEAKER_02 (41:54):
Well, listen, we appreciate your time.
We thank you for helping us makeit make sense.
Good luck to you as you continueto grow as a content creator.
And thanks for just spendingtime with us to help break down
sort of the behind the scenesand your thoughts about what the
future looks like.
SPEAKER_04 (42:12):
Well, thank you for having me.
And thank you for what you do.
I don't think that journalistsget enough credit, honestly.
It's a lot of work.
And I just think that not enoughcredit is given.
SPEAKER_02 (42:24):
Well, I appreciate that.
I really do.
All
SPEAKER_04 (42:28):
right.
Well, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02 (42:31):
And one more thing.
This experience covering thetrial alongside influencers and
YouTubers has taught me there isroom for it all.
Don't get me wrong, there is anart to storytelling.
I believe and was taught thatclear and concise writing,
beginning, a middle, and end,they're foundational.
It's part of the process.
(42:52):
That's what makes good writing.
That's what makes a good story.
But in a world of constantconsumption of media, finding
and embracing new ways to shareinformation is the key, to me,
to surviving this new landscapewhere legacy is not enough alone
to last.
I thank you so much forlistening.
(43:12):
Please follow me on Instagramand TikTok.
I am that reporter JD.
Again, I am that reporter JD.
DM me if you have any questionsand maybe we can address them on
the next one.
Until then, have a blessed day.
Hopefully we'll see you backhere once again.
(43:38):
If you enjoy this podcast andwant to help, please, please,
please spread the word.
Tell your friends, tell yourfamily, encourage them to
listen.
You can also follow Rate andReview on Apple Podcasts and
Spotify.
And just like Uber, five-starreviews are very much
appreciated.
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