May 20, 2025 • 25 mins
Sweet Dreams: Sleep Habits and the Importance of Sleep from Cradle to College
From sleepless newborn nights to college all-nighters, sleep—or the lack of it—is a shared thread through every parenting and growing-up journey. In this episode of I Get It From My Mom, Elissa and Ava (minus Maggie this time!) dive deep into sleep: how it changes as kids grow, why teens fight it, and how parents never really rest again.
You’ll hear:
- Honest stories from the baby and toddler years (including night terrors and pacifier mishaps)
- The science of adolescent sleep cycles and why teens are biologically wired to stay up late
- What chronic sleep deprivation does to teens’ mental health and performance
- The "eternal vigilance" of mom sleep (and why dads sleep through everything!)
- Power naps, dream talk, and nighttime routines that actually help
- Tips for improving your family’s sleep, from bedtime routines to sleep environments
Whether you're a parent of little ones, navigating the teen years, or just trying to survive your own sleepless phase, this one’s for you. Comment, follow, and share it with a sleep-deprived parent.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Welcome to, I Get It from mymom, where we tackle the
realities of family life withhonesty and a whole lot of love.
I'm Elissa, mother of twoincredible daughters and
professional sleep enthusiastwho hasn't had a full night's
rest since 2005.
And I'm Ava 18 and soon to be asophomore in college where sleep
(00:28):
is basically a luxury item thatnone of us can afford.
Coffee is now my personality.
Maggie, our family's night owlis sadly not able to join us
this episode, but we'll shareher not so great sleep habits
along the way.
Today we're talking aboutsomething all humans do, but
that parents in particular are,but that parents in particular
(00:51):
are obsessed with sleep.
Whether you're trying to getyour baby to sleep, your
teenager to wake up, or justtrying to remember what eight
consecutive hours ofunconsciousness feels like this
episode is for you.
We'll go through how our sleephabits have changed over the
years, the science of how muchsleep kids actually need at
(01:12):
different ages and why Momsomehow developed bionic hearing
for the slightest baby whimper,but can sleep through dad's
snoring.
And we'll make a passionate casefor bringing back nap time at
all ages.
So grab your favorite cozyblanket, maybe a cup of
chamomile tea, and settle in.
Just try not to fall asleepbefore we're done.
(01:45):
Let's start at the beginningwhen you were babies.
You both decided nighttime sleepwas not a priority for you from
the start.
Oh God, am I about to hear howterrible I was as a baby again?
Well, Ava, you definitelypresented some challenges.
You had reflux and were aterrible sleeper.
You only slept well in our armsor on our chests.
(02:08):
You absolutely hated thatbassinet.
Even when swaddled, youessentially refused to sleep
unless you were physicallyattached to one of our bodies.
Sometimes the only way you'dsleep was when it was also in a
swing going super fast side toside.
Cried a lot in the middle of thenight.
Was it really that bad?
(02:29):
Uh, we were so sleep deprivedthat our pediatrician actually
suggested letting you sleep onyour stomach, which went against
all official recommendations atthe time.
But it helped you were so muchless fussy that way, and grandma
also bought you this geniuscontraption that kept you from
rolling over in the night whenyou were a few months old, so
(02:49):
you wouldn't get stuck in a badposition.
And that helped too.
Was Maggie any better?
She was less sensitive, so notscreaming in pain all the time,
but she still woke up frequentlyas a second child though we knew
to put her down to fall asleepand let her figure it out a bit
more for herself.
But Mags was still up every twoto three hours all night and we
(03:12):
still lazily had her sleep inour bed after a while just to
survive.
For both of you.
We had you swaddled all the timesince you preferred it that way
and you were both addicted topacifiers.
We had to place them throughoutyour cribs.
You'd throw them or they'd fallout and we count them landing
through the baby monitor to knowexactly when the crying would
(03:32):
start.
We could hear the thunk and weknew what we had about 10
seconds before the next meltdowndid I eventually sleep through
the night though?
We hit our wits end on NewYear's Eve of 2007.
We remember it well.
We were at our friend's placefor New Year's, and all of their
babies slept through the night,but you were screaming and awake
(03:55):
as the ball dropped at midnight.
It still had us awake all night.
You were seven months then.
So we used the Ferber methodafter that.
What's the Ferber method?
Oh, you'll love this.
It's where you let your babiescry for progressive longer
periods before checking on them.
The idea is they learned toself-soothe and get back to
sleep after crying.
(04:16):
It worked, but those first fewnights were so tough on
everyone.
We literally sat outside of yourroom and watched you on the
monitor and listened to youscream through the door for
about two and a half hours thatfirst night.
But you did eventually sleep.
So did you torture Maggie likethat too?
No, of course not.
(04:37):
We frankly were worried if shescreamed out, she'd wake you in
the room next door.
Plus, at least when she woke up,Maggie happily ate and then went
right back to sleep.
She wasn't crying or up for longperiods like you.
So while it was tiring, itwasn't.
I don't know mind.
Numbingly painful for us, butneither of you really fully
(04:57):
slept through the night untilyou're about one years old.
It was torture.
What's the science on babysleep?
Like?
Why do they literally sleep somuch?
Infant sleep is actuallycritical for brain development
as you'd expect during thosefirst few months.
Baby's brains are forming amillion neural connections per
second.
Sleep is when memories getconsolidated and learning gets
(05:20):
processed.
But I feel like they wake up sooften.
It kind of seemscounterproductive.
Actually, I looked into this andthere's an evolutionary reason
for it.
Frequent waking is a survivalmechanism.
It allows for regular feedingand keeps the baby aware of its
surroundings.
Their sleep cycles are abouthalf as long as adults, so
(05:40):
around 50 to 60 minutes comparedto our 90 to 120 minutes, which
makes sense.
Then while you are waking upevery damn hour, when parents
complain about baby sleep,they're actually just
complaining about humanevolution.
I guess you can put it that way.
We're fighting biology, butthat's why sleep training is so
(06:01):
controversial and for lack of abetter term, an exhausting
topic.
We're essentially asking babiesto override their natural
programming.
To me, this just feels likeanother way for you to complain
about me being a bad sleeper,but do you have any advice for
new parents on getting throughthis stage?
It is absolutely a way for me toremind you how tough you were
(06:22):
and how great I am.
But yes, for parents, lower yourexpectations dramatically.
Find your non-negotiables forsanity, but be flexible on
everything else, and mostimportantly, accept help.
Whether it's someone watchingthe baby, your partner, your
parents.
Take a nap.
(06:43):
Let them bring you food, letpeople help you.
And what about those moms whoclaim their two week old sleeps
12 hours straight?
Is that even safe?
You know, every baby isdifferent, but I have a firm
belief that parents just have alot of selective memory and
creative math.
Im parenting.
You know, sleeping through thenight might mean a three, four
(07:03):
or five hour stretch.
Far better than one hourstretches I would get, but it's
still not fully through thenight.
Okay.
But once you became toddlers, wedeveloped a really consistent
nighttime routine.
It was the only way to maintainour sanity.
And what was this routine like?
We always read books to each ofyou before bedtime.
We started this when you wereonly a few months old.
(07:25):
I mean, I remember some books,but like what were our
favorites?
Sure.
Do you remember Brown Bear?
Brown Bear?
Brown Bear?
What do you see?
Oh God, yes.
I believe the next one was agreen frog looking at you, but
that said, it always had a bluehorse, which just never made
sense in science.
But anyway, you also both lovedthe hungry caterpillar, and I
(07:49):
still literally memorized everyword to that one.
I.
In the light of the moon, alittle leg, lay on a leaf.
One Sunday morning, the warm suncame up and pop outta the egg.
Came a tiny and very hungrycaterpillar.
He started to look for somefood.
Oh God, I'm getting sleepy asI'm saying it.
Yeah.
(08:09):
And you've told us stories abouthow we would quote, unquote read
them to you too.
I guess we just kind ofmemorized all the words long
before we could ever read.
Yeah, I don't remember the book,Ava, but there was one about
love and it had a big picture onone page of the hardcover book.
That was a moon.
And I would say the word when Iread the book and take my finger
(08:30):
and circle the outline of themoon, I'd say moon and circle.
And I remember it like nine or10 months old.
You took your little finger andwent around the page and said,
Mo.
I was amazed.
I thought you were the biggestgenius in the world, and I
really understood at that pointthe purpose and the point of
(08:51):
repetition and reading to yourchild because you picked up the
word, the motion, the page, allof it.
Just utter genius.
Yeah, I agree.
I think it just means I'm agenius.
Um, but I know we definitely hadnighttime songs too.
I remember Twinkle, twinkle,little Star, blah blah, black
Sheep, you Are My Sunshine Everynight.
Occasionally we throw in our ownon top of spaghetti and very
(09:13):
funny operatic voices.
And Dad and I sang BruceSpringsteen's, born to Run like
every night until I was like 10.
Yes.
Not the standard lullaby, but wedo love that song.
Do we have preferences forsleeping conditions even when we
were young?
Yeah, I mean, besides the dozensof pacifiers we've already
(09:35):
talked about, you guys wereactually different.
Maggie liked a nightlight.
You always preferred totaldarkness.
Maggie always had bear or otherstuffed animals.
You had no affinity for dolls atall.
Neither of you really used soundmachines or anything.
The war of the city is enough, Ithink.
Didn't I have some sleep issueswhen I was like a bit older too?
(09:57):
Oh yeah.
Ava, you were just the gift thatkept on giving thanks.
Once we finally got Maggie tosleep through the night at like
one years old, you lovinglydeveloped night terrors on and
off from the ages of about fourto six.
That was scary and miserable foreveryone.
You'd wake up screaming with noidea you were even awake and
would've no memory of it in themorning.
(10:18):
What?
The pediatrician explained thatnight terrors happened during
the transition between sleepcycles and aren't actually
nightmares.
You'd seem awake, but we'redefinitely not fully conscious.
It's actually quite common, butknowing that didn't make it any
(10:41):
easier in the moment and thosemoments would last a good 30 to
45 minutes.
Oh my God.
I don't, I don't know why Idon't remember this one.
I don't, I've never heard ofthis.
Oh, you don't remember it theneither.
So were we good?
Nappers at least.
Maggie was a great napper as asecond child.
You know, she got dragged aroundto your activities and around
(11:03):
your schedules, but when shewanted to sleep, she'd sleep.
Whether it was the stroller, thecar, the crib, or once she even
put her head down right on thetable at a restaurant.
And me?
You ready for this wedding?
Not surprisingly, you oftenfought naps.
Mine not tired.
You actually gave them up prettyearly at like two and a half
(11:25):
years old when I was verypregnant with Maggie.
And at that point you wouldfight the nap, frankly, longer
than you would actually sleep,and then it would just mess up
the nighttime routine.
So we just stopped and we movedyour bedtime a little earlier.
So your, you know, personalityand happiness wouldn't get
affected.
The toddler preschool years arewhen most parents develop what I
(11:46):
call sleep obsession.
You become hyper aware of everypotential sleep disruption.
You start structuring yourentire life around sleep
schedules, no events During naptime, you panic if you're gonna
be home later than bedtime.
You decline evening invitationsbecause the Ben time routine is
sacred.
You drive aimlessly for an hourto nowhere because the child
(12:07):
fell asleep in the car and youdare not disturb them.
Geez, that's intense.
Yep.
To parents of young children,you are not alone.
The sleep fixation is universal,but what helped us was having a
fairly consistent routine whileaccepting that some days we're
just going to be sleepdisasters, and it was what it
was.
We saved our energies for whenthe battles really mattered.
(12:29):
What happens if kids don't getenough sleep during that age?
You know, it's an importantpoint.
Sleep deprivation in youngchildren looks different than in
adults.
You know, tired adults get quietand sluggish, tired.
Kids become hyper and impulsiveand emotional, so that wild
child who's bouncing off thewalls probably is just
exhausted.
(12:50):
And now comes the teenage yearswhen everything you thought you
knew about your child's sleepturns upside down.
Yeah.
Maggie's actually become quitethe night owl, but you know, she
says her body won't let her fallasleep early.
I think science says it's right,but I don't believe it.
You know, during puberty, thebody's circadian rhythm shifts,
melatonins release later in theevening for teens, making it
(13:14):
biologically difficult for themto fall asleep before 11:00 PM
I.
And I know the science is there,but I still worry Maggie doesn't
get enough sleep, although ithelps that her school changed
its hours, so it doesn't startuntil nine 30 in the morning now
because school start times arereally a problem.
The American Academy ofPediatrics recommends that
(13:34):
middle and high school shouldstart no earlier than eight 30.
Yeah, well, mine started at 8 05 and I had an hour long commute
with when I was in high school,so I was waking up at like 6:00
AM torture right.
It's torture.
Exactly.
Teenagers need eight to 10 hoursof sleep and you, you give your,
have, you know, all yournighttime kinda homework
(13:55):
activities, social lives, andthen early school start times.
It messed with the whole systemthere.
Most teens, as you can know, arechronically sleep deprived and
therefore have a little bit ofan attitude.
Thanks.
And I mean, for some peoplecollege is even worse.
There's this like weird badge ofhonor about pulling all
nighters, like sleeping issomehow a weakness.
(14:17):
How much sleep were you gettingat school?
Well, I mean, personally, I, Iactually sleep pretty well.
I got lucky, I had late classes.
And I learned the value of agood nap.
Definitely now, but I also, I.
Don't go to bed so late comparedto a lot of other people my age.
And I definitely sleep when Idon't have anything else to do.
So I actually get a solid age of10 hours every night.
(14:41):
I'm jealous.
But what even happens duringteen sleep anyway?
Like why is it so important now?
Yeah, well, like baby stages andkidney stages, sleep remains
important.
Sleep means that it can help youmake decisions and control
impulses.
All of that stuff is stilldeveloping even at your age.
It's true.
(15:01):
Your prefrontal cortex isn'tactually developed till you're
like, what, mid twenties orsomething like that?
25, I think.
Did you learn that in psych?
Yeah, I think so.
I mean, I, I feel like that'salso kind of common knowledge.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Oh, well.
But sleep deprivation impactsall of that.
Yeah, absolutely.
(15:22):
Chronic sleep deprivation inteens has been linked to
increased risk of depression,anxiety, impaired decision
making, lower academicperformance, and higher rates of
car accidents.
Scarily, well, I'll just saythat it can explain how we're
all cranky when we're tired.
Yeah, so for parents, if youhave teenagers, try to be
(15:43):
understanding about their oddsleep patterns.
They're not lazy, their bodiesare truly on a different
schedule.
Advocate for later school starttimes if you can, and try to
keep weekends somewhatconsistent instead of the
letting them sleep till 2:00 PMit just makes it harder on
Monday mornings.
You know, I gotta say though,mom, I wonder, do you ever
(16:03):
actually really sleep deeplyanymore because you just seems
like you don't?
Nope.
Not really.
There's this transformation thathappens when you become a
parent.
Your sleep becomes permanentlylighter like a biological
change.
Partly biological, partlypsychological studies of brain
(16:24):
activity show that new mother'sbrains remain more alert during
sleep, particularly to thesounds of a baby.
It's an evolutionary adaptation.
You need to respond to yourinfant.
I used to wake up thinking, Iwas hearing one of you,'cause I
would hear baby cries.
There was no baby crying.
It was like a phantom baby.
Craziest thing.
Well, it's been a while since wewere babies, so shouldn't you
(16:45):
kind of just go back to sleepingnormally now?
You would think so Eva, butwhat's that vigilance pathways
established in your brain?
It's hard to turn off.
I still wake up.
If one of you comes home lateif, or there's an unusual sound
in the house if dad snores orthe air conditioning kicks in,
(17:06):
or if a car three miles away hasan alarm go off, it feels like,
well, dad doesn't seem to have aproblem with that.
He sleeps through everything.
Yes, there's actually adocumented gender disparity in
how parenthood affects sleep.
I used to hear you cry and haveto wake up, dad.
He wouldn't wake up from it.
Studies show that moms losesignificantly more sleep than
(17:28):
dads in the first few years of achild's life, and many never
fully recovered previous sleeppatterns like me never.
It gets better, but studies showthat mother's sleep remains
disrupted even when children areschool age and teenagers father
sleep goes right back to preparent levels.
(17:48):
I mean, that sounds exhaustingand kind of unfair.
Is it a biological thing or likea societal expectation?
It's a mix.
Probably.
There's biological factors,especially for nursing moms, but
a lot of it is about justdivision of.
I guess you'd call it mentallabor.
Moms carry more of the mentalload of parenting, which
(18:09):
includes worrying at night.
Oh, so sorry to make you worry.
Oh, please.
It comes with the title of mom.
Sure.
Well, for any new parentslistening, here's what the
research says.
In that first year, mothers losean average of 40 to 44 minutes
of sleep per night compared topre-pregnancy.
That adds up to about 250 hoursof lost sleep in the first year
(18:32):
alone.
That's like missing an entiremonth of sleep.
Frankly it felt worse than that.
So if you're in those earlyyears, know that it's normal and
it will improve like otherthings.
Our motto is this too shallpass, but also advocate for your
own rest.
Sleep isn't a luxury.
It's a healthy necessity.
(18:52):
Any tips for new momsspecifically?
Yeah, I mean, like I saidbefore, sleep when the baby
sleeps is actually good advice,even though it's annoying to
hear.
Ignore the dishes, learn to napefficiently and more
importantly, communicate withyour partner about sharing night
duties.
Dad would stay up and do that,like 11:00 PM or midnight
(19:12):
feeding for you guys with abottle so that I could get those
early hours of sleep and then Iwould take on the rest of the
night.
And this way, both of us,somewhere in there got enough
sleep.
But those night terrors Ava thatyou had, we had to tackle those
together.
I have literally no memory ofthose.
But more importantly, can weplease talk about naps because
(19:33):
honestly, I definitely thinkthey deserve their own segment.
Yes, naps are the unsu sunk heroof humid existence, nature's
reset button, but I think we alltend to nap too long.
The ideal nap length depends onwhat you need, but a 20 minute
power nap boosts alertnesswithout leaving you groggy.
(19:55):
If you want memory benefits, youneed about 60 minutes to reach
slow wave sleep.
But if you go beyond that, yourisk waking up during deep
sleep, which causes thathorrible, groggy feeling.
Right, so the sweet spot iseither 20 minutes or 90 minutes.
90 minutes will be a whole fullsleep cycle.
So you'll wake up in between andreally shouldn't be groggy.
(20:15):
Is there an age when humansnaturally stop needing naps?
You know, most children droptheir daily naps between.
Three and five.
You of course were earlierbecause you're that genius, but
there's actually evidence thatwe could all benefit from
napping throughout life.
I mean, Mackey loves anafterschool nap.
I know that.
And I am definitely not againsta nap anymore.
(20:38):
Yep.
And short naps can definitely behelpful, especially after
school, but her tends to go over30 minutes, which is probably
interfering with her nighttimesleep, which is why then she's
up so late.
So Dad and I both love naps too.
We all do.
I guess it's something youdefinitely got from us.
Well, the best sleeper in thefamily now is arguably the dog.
(20:59):
He sleeps all day and night, andwe see him get hyper on days
when he sleeps less.
But he's mastered the art in away humans can only dream of
because he has noresponsibilities.
Yep.
Life calls.
We all wanna be Wesley.
So can we talk about somethingfun?
Let's talk about dreams for abit.
Do you remember any of yourdreams regularly?
(21:22):
I tend to remember my dreams forlike 10 minutes after I wake up,
and then I kind of like can'tremember what they are, but if I
ever do really remember them, ittends to be really di like
detailed.
And sometimes they're likecontinuous night after night,
like a series.
That's fascinating.
Do you have any recurring dreamsor themes that show up often?
(21:44):
Yes.
I have dreams where my teeth arefalling out a lot.
Like not necessarily falling outof my mouth, but that they're
like wiggly and then I go andlike pull it out.
It's really weird.
Oh God, that is odd.
But it's actually a very commonanxiety dream.
It means you're stressed andworried about not having control
in your life.
Yeah, I mean that, that makessense.
(22:06):
Uh, what about you?
All my dreams lately, Avainvolve big waves and floods and
tsunamis.
They apparently reflect beingoverwhelmed by responsibilities
or challenges and the need tocleanse emotionally.
I.
It sure does.
I always wonder what the puppydream's about.
I assume us and squirrels andtreats.
(22:29):
It's so cute when he is likeclearly having a nightmare and
he like winds in his sleep orhe's like running in his sleep.
Maybe it's that he like can'tfind food or God forbid we left
him in the house alone for a fewhours, which is his worst
nightmare.
All of the above probably.
Okay, so let's end with somepractical advice.
(22:49):
We're not all great aboutfollowing the rules, but we
certainly know what can helpsleep.
I'll start.
I know that consistency reallymatters in college when my
schedule is all over the place,my sleep suffers when I maintain
a somewhat regular sleepschedule.
Even on weekends, I feel a lotbetter.
Yep.
And we know bedtime routine isimportant, right?
(23:09):
We all tend to scroll on ourphones until literally the
second before trying to sleep.
I've actually hit myself in thehead with my phone coming down
on it.
Um, probably not the bestapproach.
They, you know, research wouldsay, put the phone away and, go
to sleep on your own or actuallyread and not on a screen before
you go to sleep.
(23:29):
And you know, sleep environmentmatters too.
Personally, I like to sleep inthe Arctic, but temperature
between 60 to 67 degrees isoptimal for most people.
Mom, you hear that 60 to 67degrees, your room is freezing.
But that said, dad likes it waytoo warm.
So I get it.
But is it true that you can'tlike catch up on sleep on the
(23:52):
weekends?
Mostly true.
You can recover a bit, butchronic sleep deprivation causes
changes that can't be fixed withone good night, right?
And think about nutrition andfood.
You can't eat poorly all weekand then have one super healthy
day and call it balanced, eventhough that's my approach with
exercise one exercise and I'mnow good for the month.
(24:15):
I feel like my best tip would becounterintuitive when I really
can't sleep after like.
30 minutes to an hour, I'll likeget up and walk around a little
bit to try and get sleepy again.
Because staying in bed and justtossing and turning tends to
make me feel frustrated.
Yeah, that's actuallyevidence-based Sleep experts
recommend it.
It's called stimulus control.
(24:37):
Bed should be for sleep, not fortossing and turning or scrolling
on phones or studying or eating.
And I think the most importantthing is not to make a big deal
about sleep One night isn'tgonna ruin everything.
Exactly.
It's kind of like you werebabies.
You know?
Sleep is important, but worryingabout it too much creates a
vicious cycle.
So trust that your body knowshow to sleep.
(24:58):
It's one of our most basicfunctions.
Okay, so let's wrap up.
If you enjoy this episode of IGet It From My Mom, please share
it with the exhausted parent orsleep deprived student in your
life.
Sometimes just knowing you'renot alone in your sleeps can
help.
And send us to the commentthrough the podcast, what's your
(25:18):
best unusual sleep tip thatactually works.
We'd love some advice.
And remember, whether you're anight owl or an early bird,
sleep is not a luxury or a signof laziness.
It's a biological necessity.
Until a very special episodenext week, we wish you sweet
dreams and at least oneuninterrupted nap.
(25:38):
You'll clearly get it from yourmom.
See you next time.
Welcome to, I Get It from mymom, where we tackle the
realities of family life withhonesty and a whole lot of love.
I'm Elissa, mother of twoincredible daughters and
professional sleep enthusiastwho hasn't had a full night's
rest since 2005.
And I'm Ava 18 and soon to be asophomore in college where sleep
(00:28):
is basically a luxury item thatnone of us can afford.
Coffee is now my personality.
Maggie, our family's night owlis sadly not able to join us
this episode, but we'll shareher not so great sleep habits
along the way.
Today we're talking aboutsomething all humans do, but
that parents in particular are,but that parents in particular
(00:51):
are obsessed with sleep.
Whether you're trying to getyour baby to sleep, your
teenager to wake up, or justtrying to remember what eight
consecutive hours ofunconsciousness feels like this
episode is for you.
We'll go through how our sleephabits have changed over the
years, the science of how muchsleep kids actually need at
(01:12):
different ages and why Momsomehow developed bionic hearing
for the slightest baby whimper,but can sleep through dad's
snoring.
And we'll make a passionate casefor bringing back nap time at
all ages.
So grab your favorite cozyblanket, maybe a cup of
chamomile tea, and settle in.
Just try not to fall asleepbefore we're done.
(01:45):
Let's start at the beginningwhen you were babies.
You both decided nighttime sleepwas not a priority for you from
the start.
Oh God, am I about to hear howterrible I was as a baby again?
Well, Ava, you definitelypresented some challenges.
You had reflux and were aterrible sleeper.
You only slept well in our armsor on our chests.
(02:08):
You absolutely hated thatbassinet.
Even when swaddled, youessentially refused to sleep
unless you were physicallyattached to one of our bodies.
Sometimes the only way you'dsleep was when it was also in a
swing going super fast side toside.
Cried a lot in the middle of thenight.
Was it really that bad?
(02:29):
Uh, we were so sleep deprivedthat our pediatrician actually
suggested letting you sleep onyour stomach, which went against
all official recommendations atthe time.
But it helped you were so muchless fussy that way, and grandma
also bought you this geniuscontraption that kept you from
rolling over in the night whenyou were a few months old, so
(02:49):
you wouldn't get stuck in a badposition.
And that helped too.
Was Maggie any better?
She was less sensitive, so notscreaming in pain all the time,
but she still woke up frequentlyas a second child though we knew
to put her down to fall asleepand let her figure it out a bit
more for herself.
But Mags was still up every twoto three hours all night and we
(03:12):
still lazily had her sleep inour bed after a while just to
survive.
For both of you.
We had you swaddled all the timesince you preferred it that way
and you were both addicted topacifiers.
We had to place them throughoutyour cribs.
You'd throw them or they'd fallout and we count them landing
through the baby monitor to knowexactly when the crying would
(03:32):
start.
We could hear the thunk and weknew what we had about 10
seconds before the next meltdowndid I eventually sleep through
the night though?
We hit our wits end on NewYear's Eve of 2007.
We remember it well.
We were at our friend's placefor New Year's, and all of their
babies slept through the night,but you were screaming and awake
(03:55):
as the ball dropped at midnight.
It still had us awake all night.
You were seven months then.
So we used the Ferber methodafter that.
What's the Ferber method?
Oh, you'll love this.
It's where you let your babiescry for progressive longer
periods before checking on them.
The idea is they learned toself-soothe and get back to
sleep after crying.
(04:16):
It worked, but those first fewnights were so tough on
everyone.
We literally sat outside of yourroom and watched you on the
monitor and listened to youscream through the door for
about two and a half hours thatfirst night.
But you did eventually sleep.
So did you torture Maggie likethat too?
No, of course not.
(04:37):
We frankly were worried if shescreamed out, she'd wake you in
the room next door.
Plus, at least when she woke up,Maggie happily ate and then went
right back to sleep.
She wasn't crying or up for longperiods like you.
So while it was tiring, itwasn't.
I don't know mind.
Numbingly painful for us, butneither of you really fully
(04:57):
slept through the night untilyou're about one years old.
It was torture.
What's the science on babysleep?
Like?
Why do they literally sleep somuch?
Infant sleep is actuallycritical for brain development
as you'd expect during thosefirst few months.
Baby's brains are forming amillion neural connections per
second.
Sleep is when memories getconsolidated and learning gets
(05:20):
processed.
But I feel like they wake up sooften.
It kind of seemscounterproductive.
Actually, I looked into this andthere's an evolutionary reason
for it.
Frequent waking is a survivalmechanism.
It allows for regular feedingand keeps the baby aware of its
surroundings.
Their sleep cycles are abouthalf as long as adults, so
(05:40):
around 50 to 60 minutes comparedto our 90 to 120 minutes, which
makes sense.
Then while you are waking upevery damn hour, when parents
complain about baby sleep,they're actually just
complaining about humanevolution.
I guess you can put it that way.
We're fighting biology, butthat's why sleep training is so
(06:01):
controversial and for lack of abetter term, an exhausting
topic.
We're essentially asking babiesto override their natural
programming.
To me, this just feels likeanother way for you to complain
about me being a bad sleeper,but do you have any advice for
new parents on getting throughthis stage?
It is absolutely a way for me toremind you how tough you were
(06:22):
and how great I am.
But yes, for parents, lower yourexpectations dramatically.
Find your non-negotiables forsanity, but be flexible on
everything else, and mostimportantly, accept help.
Whether it's someone watchingthe baby, your partner, your
parents.
Take a nap.
(06:43):
Let them bring you food, letpeople help you.
And what about those moms whoclaim their two week old sleeps
12 hours straight?
Is that even safe?
You know, every baby isdifferent, but I have a firm
belief that parents just have alot of selective memory and
creative math.
Im parenting.
You know, sleeping through thenight might mean a three, four
(07:03):
or five hour stretch.
Far better than one hourstretches I would get, but it's
still not fully through thenight.
Okay.
But once you became toddlers, wedeveloped a really consistent
nighttime routine.
It was the only way to maintainour sanity.
And what was this routine like?
We always read books to each ofyou before bedtime.
We started this when you wereonly a few months old.
(07:25):
I mean, I remember some books,but like what were our
favorites?
Sure.
Do you remember Brown Bear?
Brown Bear?
Brown Bear?
What do you see?
Oh God, yes.
I believe the next one was agreen frog looking at you, but
that said, it always had a bluehorse, which just never made
sense in science.
But anyway, you also both lovedthe hungry caterpillar, and I
(07:49):
still literally memorized everyword to that one.
I.
In the light of the moon, alittle leg, lay on a leaf.
One Sunday morning, the warm suncame up and pop outta the egg.
Came a tiny and very hungrycaterpillar.
He started to look for somefood.
Oh God, I'm getting sleepy asI'm saying it.
Yeah.
(08:09):
And you've told us stories abouthow we would quote, unquote read
them to you too.
I guess we just kind ofmemorized all the words long
before we could ever read.
Yeah, I don't remember the book,Ava, but there was one about
love and it had a big picture onone page of the hardcover book.
That was a moon.
And I would say the word when Iread the book and take my finger
(08:30):
and circle the outline of themoon, I'd say moon and circle.
And I remember it like nine or10 months old.
You took your little finger andwent around the page and said,
Mo.
I was amazed.
I thought you were the biggestgenius in the world, and I
really understood at that pointthe purpose and the point of
(08:51):
repetition and reading to yourchild because you picked up the
word, the motion, the page, allof it.
Just utter genius.
Yeah, I agree.
I think it just means I'm agenius.
Um, but I know we definitely hadnighttime songs too.
I remember Twinkle, twinkle,little Star, blah blah, black
Sheep, you Are My Sunshine Everynight.
Occasionally we throw in our ownon top of spaghetti and very
(09:13):
funny operatic voices.
And Dad and I sang BruceSpringsteen's, born to Run like
every night until I was like 10.
Yes.
Not the standard lullaby, but wedo love that song.
Do we have preferences forsleeping conditions even when we
were young?
Yeah, I mean, besides the dozensof pacifiers we've already
(09:35):
talked about, you guys wereactually different.
Maggie liked a nightlight.
You always preferred totaldarkness.
Maggie always had bear or otherstuffed animals.
You had no affinity for dolls atall.
Neither of you really used soundmachines or anything.
The war of the city is enough, Ithink.
Didn't I have some sleep issueswhen I was like a bit older too?
(09:57):
Oh yeah.
Ava, you were just the gift thatkept on giving thanks.
Once we finally got Maggie tosleep through the night at like
one years old, you lovinglydeveloped night terrors on and
off from the ages of about fourto six.
That was scary and miserable foreveryone.
You'd wake up screaming with noidea you were even awake and
would've no memory of it in themorning.
(10:18):
What?
The pediatrician explained thatnight terrors happened during
the transition between sleepcycles and aren't actually
nightmares.
You'd seem awake, but we'redefinitely not fully conscious.
It's actually quite common, butknowing that didn't make it any
(10:41):
easier in the moment and thosemoments would last a good 30 to
45 minutes.
Oh my God.
I don't, I don't know why Idon't remember this one.
I don't, I've never heard ofthis.
Oh, you don't remember it theneither.
So were we good?
Nappers at least.
Maggie was a great napper as asecond child.
You know, she got dragged aroundto your activities and around
(11:03):
your schedules, but when shewanted to sleep, she'd sleep.
Whether it was the stroller, thecar, the crib, or once she even
put her head down right on thetable at a restaurant.
And me?
You ready for this wedding?
Not surprisingly, you oftenfought naps.
Mine not tired.
You actually gave them up prettyearly at like two and a half
(11:25):
years old when I was verypregnant with Maggie.
And at that point you wouldfight the nap, frankly, longer
than you would actually sleep,and then it would just mess up
the nighttime routine.
So we just stopped and we movedyour bedtime a little earlier.
So your, you know, personalityand happiness wouldn't get
affected.
The toddler preschool years arewhen most parents develop what I
(11:46):
call sleep obsession.
You become hyper aware of everypotential sleep disruption.
You start structuring yourentire life around sleep
schedules, no events During naptime, you panic if you're gonna
be home later than bedtime.
You decline evening invitationsbecause the Ben time routine is
sacred.
You drive aimlessly for an hourto nowhere because the child
(12:07):
fell asleep in the car and youdare not disturb them.
Geez, that's intense.
Yep.
To parents of young children,you are not alone.
The sleep fixation is universal,but what helped us was having a
fairly consistent routine whileaccepting that some days we're
just going to be sleepdisasters, and it was what it
was.
We saved our energies for whenthe battles really mattered.
(12:29):
What happens if kids don't getenough sleep during that age?
You know, it's an importantpoint.
Sleep deprivation in youngchildren looks different than in
adults.
You know, tired adults get quietand sluggish, tired.
Kids become hyper and impulsiveand emotional, so that wild
child who's bouncing off thewalls probably is just
exhausted.
(12:50):
And now comes the teenage yearswhen everything you thought you
knew about your child's sleepturns upside down.
Yeah.
Maggie's actually become quitethe night owl, but you know, she
says her body won't let her fallasleep early.
I think science says it's right,but I don't believe it.
You know, during puberty, thebody's circadian rhythm shifts,
melatonins release later in theevening for teens, making it
(13:14):
biologically difficult for themto fall asleep before 11:00 PM
I.
And I know the science is there,but I still worry Maggie doesn't
get enough sleep, although ithelps that her school changed
its hours, so it doesn't startuntil nine 30 in the morning now
because school start times arereally a problem.
The American Academy ofPediatrics recommends that
(13:34):
middle and high school shouldstart no earlier than eight 30.
Yeah, well, mine started at 8 05 and I had an hour long commute
with when I was in high school,so I was waking up at like 6:00
AM torture right.
It's torture.
Exactly.
Teenagers need eight to 10 hoursof sleep and you, you give your,
have, you know, all yournighttime kinda homework
(13:55):
activities, social lives, andthen early school start times.
It messed with the whole systemthere.
Most teens, as you can know, arechronically sleep deprived and
therefore have a little bit ofan attitude.
Thanks.
And I mean, for some peoplecollege is even worse.
There's this like weird badge ofhonor about pulling all
nighters, like sleeping issomehow a weakness.
(14:17):
How much sleep were you gettingat school?
Well, I mean, personally, I, Iactually sleep pretty well.
I got lucky, I had late classes.
And I learned the value of agood nap.
Definitely now, but I also, I.
Don't go to bed so late comparedto a lot of other people my age.
And I definitely sleep when Idon't have anything else to do.
So I actually get a solid age of10 hours every night.
(14:41):
I'm jealous.
But what even happens duringteen sleep anyway?
Like why is it so important now?
Yeah, well, like baby stages andkidney stages, sleep remains
important.
Sleep means that it can help youmake decisions and control
impulses.
All of that stuff is stilldeveloping even at your age.
It's true.
(15:01):
Your prefrontal cortex isn'tactually developed till you're
like, what, mid twenties orsomething like that?
25, I think.
Did you learn that in psych?
Yeah, I think so.
I mean, I, I feel like that'salso kind of common knowledge.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Oh, well.
But sleep deprivation impactsall of that.
Yeah, absolutely.
(15:22):
Chronic sleep deprivation inteens has been linked to
increased risk of depression,anxiety, impaired decision
making, lower academicperformance, and higher rates of
car accidents.
Scarily, well, I'll just saythat it can explain how we're
all cranky when we're tired.
Yeah, so for parents, if youhave teenagers, try to be
(15:43):
understanding about their oddsleep patterns.
They're not lazy, their bodiesare truly on a different
schedule.
Advocate for later school starttimes if you can, and try to
keep weekends somewhatconsistent instead of the
letting them sleep till 2:00 PMit just makes it harder on
Monday mornings.
You know, I gotta say though,mom, I wonder, do you ever
(16:03):
actually really sleep deeplyanymore because you just seems
like you don't?
Nope.
Not really.
There's this transformation thathappens when you become a
parent.
Your sleep becomes permanentlylighter like a biological
change.
Partly biological, partlypsychological studies of brain
(16:24):
activity show that new mother'sbrains remain more alert during
sleep, particularly to thesounds of a baby.
It's an evolutionary adaptation.
You need to respond to yourinfant.
I used to wake up thinking, Iwas hearing one of you,'cause I
would hear baby cries.
There was no baby crying.
It was like a phantom baby.
Craziest thing.
Well, it's been a while since wewere babies, so shouldn't you
(16:45):
kind of just go back to sleepingnormally now?
You would think so Eva, butwhat's that vigilance pathways
established in your brain?
It's hard to turn off.
I still wake up.
If one of you comes home lateif, or there's an unusual sound
in the house if dad snores orthe air conditioning kicks in,
(17:06):
or if a car three miles away hasan alarm go off, it feels like,
well, dad doesn't seem to have aproblem with that.
He sleeps through everything.
Yes, there's actually adocumented gender disparity in
how parenthood affects sleep.
I used to hear you cry and haveto wake up, dad.
He wouldn't wake up from it.
Studies show that moms losesignificantly more sleep than
(17:28):
dads in the first few years of achild's life, and many never
fully recovered previous sleeppatterns like me never.
It gets better, but studies showthat mother's sleep remains
disrupted even when children areschool age and teenagers father
sleep goes right back to preparent levels.
(17:48):
I mean, that sounds exhaustingand kind of unfair.
Is it a biological thing or likea societal expectation?
It's a mix.
Probably.
There's biological factors,especially for nursing moms, but
a lot of it is about justdivision of.
I guess you'd call it mentallabor.
Moms carry more of the mentalload of parenting, which
(18:09):
includes worrying at night.
Oh, so sorry to make you worry.
Oh, please.
It comes with the title of mom.
Sure.
Well, for any new parentslistening, here's what the
research says.
In that first year, mothers losean average of 40 to 44 minutes
of sleep per night compared topre-pregnancy.
That adds up to about 250 hoursof lost sleep in the first year
(18:32):
alone.
That's like missing an entiremonth of sleep.
Frankly it felt worse than that.
So if you're in those earlyyears, know that it's normal and
it will improve like otherthings.
Our motto is this too shallpass, but also advocate for your
own rest.
Sleep isn't a luxury.
It's a healthy necessity.
(18:52):
Any tips for new momsspecifically?
Yeah, I mean, like I saidbefore, sleep when the baby
sleeps is actually good advice,even though it's annoying to
hear.
Ignore the dishes, learn to napefficiently and more
importantly, communicate withyour partner about sharing night
duties.
Dad would stay up and do that,like 11:00 PM or midnight
(19:12):
feeding for you guys with abottle so that I could get those
early hours of sleep and then Iwould take on the rest of the
night.
And this way, both of us,somewhere in there got enough
sleep.
But those night terrors Ava thatyou had, we had to tackle those
together.
I have literally no memory ofthose.
But more importantly, can weplease talk about naps because
(19:33):
honestly, I definitely thinkthey deserve their own segment.
Yes, naps are the unsu sunk heroof humid existence, nature's
reset button, but I think we alltend to nap too long.
The ideal nap length depends onwhat you need, but a 20 minute
power nap boosts alertnesswithout leaving you groggy.
(19:55):
If you want memory benefits, youneed about 60 minutes to reach
slow wave sleep.
But if you go beyond that, yourisk waking up during deep
sleep, which causes thathorrible, groggy feeling.
Right, so the sweet spot iseither 20 minutes or 90 minutes.
90 minutes will be a whole fullsleep cycle.
So you'll wake up in between andreally shouldn't be groggy.
(20:15):
Is there an age when humansnaturally stop needing naps?
You know, most children droptheir daily naps between.
Three and five.
You of course were earlierbecause you're that genius, but
there's actually evidence thatwe could all benefit from
napping throughout life.
I mean, Mackey loves anafterschool nap.
I know that.
And I am definitely not againsta nap anymore.
(20:38):
Yep.
And short naps can definitely behelpful, especially after
school, but her tends to go over30 minutes, which is probably
interfering with her nighttimesleep, which is why then she's
up so late.
So Dad and I both love naps too.
We all do.
I guess it's something youdefinitely got from us.
Well, the best sleeper in thefamily now is arguably the dog.
(20:59):
He sleeps all day and night, andwe see him get hyper on days
when he sleeps less.
But he's mastered the art in away humans can only dream of
because he has noresponsibilities.
Yep.
Life calls.
We all wanna be Wesley.
So can we talk about somethingfun?
Let's talk about dreams for abit.
Do you remember any of yourdreams regularly?
(21:22):
I tend to remember my dreams forlike 10 minutes after I wake up,
and then I kind of like can'tremember what they are, but if I
ever do really remember them, ittends to be really di like
detailed.
And sometimes they're likecontinuous night after night,
like a series.
That's fascinating.
Do you have any recurring dreamsor themes that show up often?
(21:44):
Yes.
I have dreams where my teeth arefalling out a lot.
Like not necessarily falling outof my mouth, but that they're
like wiggly and then I go andlike pull it out.
It's really weird.
Oh God, that is odd.
But it's actually a very commonanxiety dream.
It means you're stressed andworried about not having control
in your life.
Yeah, I mean that, that makessense.
(22:06):
Uh, what about you?
All my dreams lately, Avainvolve big waves and floods and
tsunamis.
They apparently reflect beingoverwhelmed by responsibilities
or challenges and the need tocleanse emotionally.
I.
It sure does.
I always wonder what the puppydream's about.
I assume us and squirrels andtreats.
(22:29):
It's so cute when he is likeclearly having a nightmare and
he like winds in his sleep orhe's like running in his sleep.
Maybe it's that he like can'tfind food or God forbid we left
him in the house alone for a fewhours, which is his worst
nightmare.
All of the above probably.
Okay, so let's end with somepractical advice.
(22:49):
We're not all great aboutfollowing the rules, but we
certainly know what can helpsleep.
I'll start.
I know that consistency reallymatters in college when my
schedule is all over the place,my sleep suffers when I maintain
a somewhat regular sleepschedule.
Even on weekends, I feel a lotbetter.
Yep.
And we know bedtime routine isimportant, right?
(23:09):
We all tend to scroll on ourphones until literally the
second before trying to sleep.
I've actually hit myself in thehead with my phone coming down
on it.
Um, probably not the bestapproach.
They, you know, research wouldsay, put the phone away and, go
to sleep on your own or actuallyread and not on a screen before
you go to sleep.
(23:29):
And you know, sleep environmentmatters too.
Personally, I like to sleep inthe Arctic, but temperature
between 60 to 67 degrees isoptimal for most people.
Mom, you hear that 60 to 67degrees, your room is freezing.
But that said, dad likes it waytoo warm.
So I get it.
But is it true that you can'tlike catch up on sleep on the
(23:52):
weekends?
Mostly true.
You can recover a bit, butchronic sleep deprivation causes
changes that can't be fixed withone good night, right?
And think about nutrition andfood.
You can't eat poorly all weekand then have one super healthy
day and call it balanced, eventhough that's my approach with
exercise one exercise and I'mnow good for the month.
(24:15):
I feel like my best tip would becounterintuitive when I really
can't sleep after like.
30 minutes to an hour, I'll likeget up and walk around a little
bit to try and get sleepy again.
Because staying in bed and justtossing and turning tends to
make me feel frustrated.
Yeah, that's actuallyevidence-based Sleep experts
recommend it.
It's called stimulus control.
(24:37):
Bed should be for sleep, not fortossing and turning or scrolling
on phones or studying or eating.
And I think the most importantthing is not to make a big deal
about sleep One night isn'tgonna ruin everything.
Exactly.
It's kind of like you werebabies.
You know?
Sleep is important, but worryingabout it too much creates a
vicious cycle.
So trust that your body knowshow to sleep.
(24:58):
It's one of our most basicfunctions.
Okay, so let's wrap up.
If you enjoy this episode of IGet It From My Mom, please share
it with the exhausted parent orsleep deprived student in your
life.
Sometimes just knowing you'renot alone in your sleeps can
help.
And send us to the commentthrough the podcast, what's your
(25:18):
best unusual sleep tip thatactually works.
We'd love some advice.
And remember, whether you're anight owl or an early bird,
sleep is not a luxury or a signof laziness.
It's a biological necessity.
Until a very special episodenext week, we wish you sweet
dreams and at least oneuninterrupted nap.
(25:38):
You'll clearly get it from yourmom.
See you next time.
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