February 12, 2024 • 28 mins
This episode explores the therapeutic power of writing trauma with the author and writing coach TJ from Virginia. Tj's compelling work, "Dating Silky Maxwell," brings to life a chorus of passionate, damaged characters who leave their pasts behind and reinvent themselves until their mistakes no longer define them.
During this episode we delve into the silent strength of writing, especially for those not ready to vocalize their truths.
Embarking on the writing journey mirrors navigating an uncharted path. This discussion unveils the intricate process of crafting a short story collection, addressing revisions, rejections, and the authenticity breathed into fiction.
Tj's insights highlight the vital role of a writing coach in providing emotional support and practical wisdom, urging writers to infuse creativity into their daily lives.
Connect with TJ: https://www.tjbutlerauthor.com/dating-silky-maxwell-1
To order Dating Silky Maxwell on Amazon:
https://www.tjbutlerauthor.com/
Connect with Jen:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ineedbluepodcast/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/needbluepodcast
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp1q8SfA_hEXRJ4EaizlW8Q
Website: https://ineedblue.net/
The background music is written, performed and produced exclusively by Char Good.
https://chargood.com/home
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennifer (00:00):
Everyone has a story.
They just don't always have aplace to share it.
Music.
Welcome to the I Need Bluepodcast.
This is Shar Good and I amhonored to introduce Jennifer
(00:23):
Lee, author, life coach and hostof today's show on the I Need
Blue podcast.
TJ (00:28):
MUSIC.
Jennifer (00:41):
Thank you for that warm introduction, shar, and
welcome to I Need Blue, thepodcast about to take you on an
extraordinary journey whereprofound narratives come to life
, one captivating episode at atime.
I'm your host, jennifer Lee,and I founded this podcast
(01:01):
because I know there is healingand sharing.
Each story you will hear sharedon this podcast is a testament
to our collective strength,innate ability to transform in
the incredible power of healing.
Please remember you are neveralone.
Please visit and share mywebsite with those seeking
(01:23):
connection and inspirationwwwineedbluenet.
Thank you, shar Good, forcomposing and performing the
introduction medley for I NeedBlue.
You can find information aboutShar on her website,
wwwshargoodcom.
(01:43):
Before starting today's episode,I must provide a trigger
warning.
I Need Blue features graphicthemes, including, but not
limited to, violence, abuse andmurder, and may not be suitable
for all listeners.
Please take care of yourselfand don't hesitate to ask for
help if you need it.
Now let's get started withtoday's story.
(02:06):
There are different ways toshare your trauma.
For instance, I founded apodcast, offer personal life
coaching and wrote a book.
Everyone experiences theirhealing journey in their own way
.
My guest today found writing tobe the healing journey she
(02:26):
needed Once she permittedherself to write.
The healing was profound.
She needed to help others putpen to paper.
Today, we are going to focus onhow to write your trauma.
Only 3% of writers who start anovel finish it.
Tiffany helps aspiring writersput pen to paper and keep the
(02:52):
process going.
She is an author living inVirginia with her husband and
dog.
She enjoys helping writers findtheir voice, tell their stories
and guide those who want tobegin.
Her short story collection,dating Silky Maxwell, is
available online at yourfavorite bookseller.
(03:15):
Tiffany, thank you for being myesteemed guest today and
welcome to the I Need Bluepodcast.
TJ (03:25):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to share mystory and help writers and just
people listening who areinterested in it.
Jennifer (03:34):
Absolutely.
And before I hit the recordbutton, you and I were kind of
chatting about the importance ofwriting For some.
They're not quite ready to puttheir voice behind their story.
They may never be ready, butputting it on paper is a great
way to sort out all of thosethoughts that are going through
your head and createorganization out of.
(03:56):
For some is this absolute chaos.
When did you realize you neededto write a book?
TJ (04:05):
I was one of those kids that said I wanted to be a writer
when I grew up, but I didn'tkeep on writing.
I dropped that and went alongin my life and had jobs and
relationships and a couple yearsago, I realized that I needed
to start writing and I wasn'tsure what did it.
(04:27):
I just thought, after notwriting for years, I wrote a
little bit in college and youknow I'm in my late 40s, and so
this really came to me later inlife.
But I thought, you know, I havesome stories to tell.
So I started writing what'scalled flash fiction, which is
little stories that are athousand words or less.
(04:50):
Then I thought, you know, oh, Ireally have something here.
I had some positive feedback andI estranged myself from my
mother in 2017 and it was big,big feelings because I was just
getting into writing seriouslyas an adult, with all my life
(05:14):
experience and my education,whereas you know school and also
life education, and so the twokind of came together, realizing
that you know, I had stories totell and I did not want to sit
down and write a memoir because,you know, I thought about you
(05:37):
know who's gonna read it, andalso the big thing was.
I don't want to focus on thethings that happen to me and put
them down on pen and paper andthen have someone read it and
judge my lived experience.
So I thought, if I'm gonna dosomething with this, I can tell
(05:58):
my stories in fiction.
I worked out some personalissues on the page and I kept
writing and, through the magicof how the universe works, I now
have a short story collectionthat is out.
Jennifer (06:16):
That is awesome, and you said something that I wasn't
familiar with Flash fiction.
So is your current book?
Does it fit in that category offlash fiction, where it's under
a thousand words, or does eachstory within your book fit into
that category?
TJ (06:34):
I started writing flash fiction as a way to kind of get
my arms around.
You know, here's a containerthat you can put a story in.
My short stories are typicalshort story length but when I
was starting out as a writer itwas really daunting to think
that I might have to write 20pages.
(06:56):
But the shorter form they'recalled micro if you're, you know
, 300, 500, 700 words, and thenthey're called flash when
they're around a thousand.
The short form as a legitimate,recognized form, allowed me to
(07:17):
feel like I was writing and notjust scribbling down some stuff
but really writing, and I didn'thave to tell huge stories.
You know, 500 words is about apage and if you think about
somebody just starting outsaying I want to tell stories, I
(07:37):
want to write, I want to putsomething on the page, I'm not
sure what, knowing that you knowsomebody's giving you
permission, knowing that it'sokay to write a scene in 500
words, you know you, a validstory is what happened that one
(07:58):
time at Thanksgiving at thedinner table.
What happened to you that onetime?
Your mother, something,something, something.
And not having to describeeverything, you don't even have
to write conversation, you justtell a little anecdote, you just
(08:20):
tell you know what happenedthen and there, and having the
freedom to say I can make thisas shortest to paragraphs or I
can keep going and going until Ihave some pages, it really
allowed me to figure out what Iwas doing on the page.
Because if I had come into thisthinking, oh okay, well,
(08:43):
writers write novels, or writerswrite, you know, articles in
the New York Times and writersdo all of these very fancy
things, I'm just a regularperson.
I don't know if I would havekept with it, but embracing the
short form allowed me to getgood enough that I was
(09:04):
comfortable writing shortstories and writing longer
things and then sending them topeople and then getting them
published, which is a wholedifferent story.
Jennifer (09:15):
You talked about giving yourself permission.
Did somebody give youpermission to write these things
down?
Or was it yourself getting to apoint in your healing journey
where you said I'm giving myselfpermission?
TJ (09:30):
It didn't really have permission as much as a
compulsion.
I wrote these two pieces, twoextreme childhood situations,
and I wrote these stories inwhat's called second person.
Second person is where you sayyou, whereas first person is I
(09:51):
did something, and third personis we, they, he, she did
something.
So writing in second persontakes me, takes the writer out
of it, because you will say youopened the door slowly, you
looked inside the room and sawsomething Writing it as you
(10:15):
makes it the reader, and that'snot a very popular form.
But I wrote these two reallytraumatic things in second
person.
I haven't reread them, but itallowed me to kind of like break
the seal, I guess.
(10:36):
And then I started writing alittle more.
I.
So I I didn't necessarily havepermission, as much as figuring
it out.
But in talking to newer writersI know that so many people feel
intimidated or they say, ohwell, I'm not really a writer.
(10:57):
Well, yes, you are.
If you are writing, if you wantto write, yes, you can be a
writer, you are a writer.
I joined a local writers groupthat met at an organic market
every other week and that kindof got me started.
And so now, with writing groupsbeing on Zoom and in person.
(11:23):
It is not difficult to find awriting group and join and
connect with other writers.
Jennifer (11:32):
Right.
So after you wrote those twoshort stories in second person
using the word you, how did youfeel afterwards?
TJ (11:41):
Super traumatized.
So I sent one in and Ipublished it in a literary
journal, which is a format thatanybody can send in their work
to literary journals and bepublished.
And I used a different name tosubmit it.
And when they told me it waspublished, I was excited because
(12:02):
I got some published work andI'm not sure why I sent it in,
but I just wanted to kind of putit out there.
And then when I heard from thejournal that it was released, I
went to the website and I readmaybe two sentences and closed.
I just closed my laptop screenand I thought you know, I don't
(12:24):
want to read that.
I've put it out there.
I have.
I've taken the first step as awriter now kind of ripping the
bandaid off.
Now let me try to explore somedifferent things.
Then it kind of happened that Iwas starting to write about bad
(12:47):
mothers and writing aboutdaughters who had to find their
way in the world, and my shortstory collection has a lot of
bad mothers and a lot of womenwho are making choices based on
the tools that they have, andnot all of those tools are
(13:09):
enough.
That was kind of my start for,like you know, how did I feel
not so great.
But how did I feel later, whenI was not writing about the most
raw unhealed wound possible?
Much better about myself.
Jennifer (13:25):
Right, because I wanted to go back to where you
said you felt super traumatized,because there are those
listening who, after listeningto you, may decide to write and
also may feel super traumatized.
So I wanted you to let themknow your journey of, even
though you felt these intenseemotions, what did you do to
(13:46):
work through them?
Did you seek help at that timeor was continuing to write the
therapy that you needed?
So that's a really interestingquestion.
TJ (13:58):
The two early pieces were just exploring writing and
exploring trauma.
I had very recently estrangedmyself from my mother, so that
brought up, you know, decades ofreally hard emotional things to
(14:18):
deal with.
And when I realized that Iwanted to tell my truth but I
didn't want to do that to myselfagain and I didn't want to
write a memoir I realized that Icould take situations from my
life and fictionalize them.
So many trauma survivors, wehave normalized our experiences
(14:45):
so we can go through and if youmeet with a new therapist or if
you get into a new relationshipor you're, you know, meeting
somebody new and kind of givingyour bite sized life history.
We have these bullet pointsthat we just go through Because
as trauma survivors we havepossibly told these things to
(15:08):
therapists or close friends orrelationships and so in
normalizing our trauma we havekind of downplayed it, whereas
we might hear someone else'strauma and feel like our heart
goes out to them, you know,because of what they've been
through, not realizing thatsomeone else is thinking the
(15:32):
same thing about our trauma.
I wanted to tell my stories butI wasn't really sure how to do
it in fiction and I have manymemoir pieces in my stories.
But the thing that I did wasthe body of work is kind of me
(15:53):
controlling the trauma narrative.
My stories are mostly fromwomen's point of view.
I gave these women agency at atime in situations when I was
powerless, and I gave them avoice when I had none.
That allowed me to control thetrauma narrative.
(16:17):
I have one story that outlines asituation, my life story,
essentially living with mymother before she gave up
custody and put me in fostercare at 13.
But the main character in thatstory is a man and myself, as
(16:42):
the bad seed of the family, Imade that his little sister.
So by changing up the detailsand giving them completely
different arc, I was able totell my story.
Because I'm a stranger from mymother, I don't necessarily have
to worry about her reading it,which most people don't have
(17:04):
that thing.
I would say that it's best forwriters to feel like they can
write freely, and that meanschanging characters, sexes, that
means blending three differentpeople into one character.
That means fictionalizing thedetails so that nobody says, hey
(17:28):
, you're writing about me.
Many people successfully writememoirs and they show their
family members the stories toget permission Others who may be
on the outs with their familiesand don't have as good
relationships.
They just write their truth.
That can be good or bad, ormaybe we just write and it's not
(17:53):
to be published.
Maybe the goal is to write forthe joy of it but not send it
out into the world.
Just get our story on paper.
Jennifer (18:04):
Right, I have a ton of poems that are in a folder.
That is where they stay and I'mokay with that.
They were healing at the time.
I don't feel I have to go backand read them.
Nothing like that.
You know earlier when youtalked about the short stories,
you don't have to be asdescriptive.
Sometimes less detail gives thereader the opportunity to use
(18:29):
their imagination but then alsorecall a situation that relates
to them.
So rather than saying I went toa beach with purple sand, yada
yada, yada, yada, yada yada,when you just say the beach.
Now they can go back to theirmemory of going to the beach and
bring themselves a little moreinto the story and the
(18:49):
understanding, maybe, of whatthat character was going through
.
Do you agree with that thoughtprocess?
TJ (18:56):
Absolutely so.
Stephen King wrote this reallypowerful book called On Writing
and it is part memoir, part hiswriting philosophy, and I
recommend that everybody read it.
It's a quick read and it's justgreat.
So one of the things he says ohmy gosh, I hope it is in this
(19:18):
book, but that's a good bookanyway.
So he says that rather thandescribing a character by saying
they had here's their haircolor and eye color and here's
their shape and their nose wasbig and their hands were hairy,
rather than saying that he wouldsay something like she looked
like the kind of woman thatshopped at thrift stores.
(19:41):
And everybody who's listeninghas now just decided what that
woman looks like.
For me, because I do a lot ofsecondhand shopping, I'm like,
oh, she's cool.
And then some people who maybehave never been into a thrift
shop, they might think, oh, shelooks some way.
And so describing a characterwith those simple words looks
(20:03):
like they shop at thrift storesthat speaks volumes.
When we are describing a room,you don't need to describe every
single thing in there.
If you want to let your readersknow that the person has an
interest in music, you can skipeverything but point out that
(20:26):
they had a piano in the room andthere was framed art on the
wall with music notes.
And right there we know thatperson inhabits a room that
supports their musical interest.
Without going into any detailabout the couch and the carpet
and the drapes and all thatstuff, Okay, so that is amazing.
Jennifer (20:48):
I'm so glad you shared the examples because I too am a
thrift shopper, and more sowhen I was younger is I wanted
to look nice, but I couldn'tafford to shop off the rack.
Yeah, same, yes, uh-huh, andthat was for me thrift.
There weren't.
Well, guess, I looked like Ishopped at thrift.
(21:08):
But you can find a really greatstuff at the thrift store, I'm
telling you.
But when you said that, yeah,there's a natural inclination of
what someone would look like,perceptions and whatnot, but we
can defy that perception, right,of course I like when you
talked about describingcharacters, for me, being a
(21:31):
memoir, I changed names.
There really isn't muchdescription in my characters,
also for legality reasons,because I did not have
permission to write about theother characters in my book.
But when I reached out to alawyer, he said as long as you
don't give a lot ofdistinguishing features,
nobody's going to know whoyou're talking about.
(21:53):
And nobody does.
The average reader has no ideawho I'm talking about.
They have the name of thecharacter and that's it.
There's nothing else.
How long did it take you towrite your book?
TJ (22:04):
Okay, so I finished this collection.
When I say finished, I'm doingair quotes finished the
collection in 2020.
And along the way, I wentthrough two agents.
I had a small press contractthat I pulled.
I wrote a novel that's in thedumpster, and so when I ended up
(22:30):
with this contract that has nowjust been published from, in
the publication process Irevised my every story again.
So to start with saying, here'sa completed short story
collection longer than a year,and then it went through a
(22:50):
number of revisions.
Short stories are a thing,because I have 11 of them and I
had to come up with 11 differentworlds.
When I am in the mindset ofbeing a writer, I can kind of do
that, but then I can't switchgears to being a photographer.
I have to focus on one thing ata time, but writing a book
(23:15):
takes a long time.
If you can knock out a book ina year, that might not be your
best work.
Speed is not of the essence.
There is a thing in Novembercalled NaNoWriMo, which is
National Write a Novel Month,and people try to write a 50,000
(23:38):
word novel in a month.
That is hard to do, and then ittakes, you know, months and
months and months of revision toget it right.
It's not necessarily the timebecause we have as just citizens
of the world.
We have families, we have jobs,we have other things.
(24:01):
We want to sometimes watchYouTube rather than sit down and
write.
Writing is a commitment.
Writing is for me.
Writing is really hard, butI'll tell you what not writing
is harder, so it's notnecessarily the calendar time
that it takes to write the book.
(24:22):
It is the time that you cantake from your life to do this
thing.
So I work part-time as awriting coach and I'm not
reading people's writing.
I'm working more as a writer'stherapist.
There's a lot of junk on socialmedia garbage about who is and
(24:43):
who is not a valid writer.
The writing process is not allyour fingers typing words on a
keyboard.
The writing process is goingfor a walk and working out plot
points, going for a drive.
You know how we always get thegreatest ideas when we're in the
shower or when we're washingdishes.
(25:05):
It's a muscle memory that yourbody goes into that puts your
brain in a creative state Whileyou are, you know, walking your
dog and you have to pull outyour phone and say, hey, google,
send an email and then do yourplot point.
Those are all part of thewriting process.
(25:25):
It's part of the writingprocess when you, before you
fall asleep, think of a crazything that you have to put in
your story and you send yourselfthis email and when you wake up
it's like snails with shirtseating waffles and you're like
wait a minute, that was the bestidea last night.
What does it mean?
So, rather than the time ittakes, it is however long it
(25:52):
takes until it's done, reallyRight.
Jennifer (25:55):
To add to that, I started writing my dating abuse
story 17 years ago.
Six years ago, I ripped it allup, thinking that that was
prohibiting me from healingwhich was not the case and so I
picked my pen back up and becameintentional.
For me, it was about beingintentional, and some could
(26:15):
describe that as just allocatingthe time, dedicating yourself
to that, and in a busy worldthat can be hard to do.
But I love when you talk abouthow we're allocating time for
YouTube, for Facebook, forInstagram.
Imagine if you just took half ofthe time that you spent
scrolling through your phone anddedicated that to writing
(26:37):
something, even if it's justjournaling.
It's amazing what comes out ofjournaling.
Then you would realize thatwriting isn't quite as hard as
you thought.
I was going to ask you tobasically dig into what you do
to help others as a writingcoach.
I want to give you anopportunity to elaborate a
(26:57):
little bit more on that howpeople can contact you, and if
there was something else youwanted to talk about that I
missed, I definitely want to getthat in here as well.
TJ (27:11):
So I take clients who need help not with their actual words
, but just with a writingprocess in general.
This can be an accountabilitybuddy.
I can be a cheerleader when yousay I'm going to write a
chapter by the next time we talkand then you know that you told
(27:35):
me this so you're going to haveto have it done.
There's a lot of emotionwrapped up when we are telling
our stories.
I've been through a lot.
I was in foster care.
I aged out of foster carewithout any family support.
I came from a home withdomestic violence and alcoholism
(27:55):
.
So I have seen a lot andknowing with my experiences, I'm
a good ear to listen whenwriters are trying to process
some of their things and writeabout them.
My website is tjbutlerauthorcomand on that website that's kind
(28:16):
of everything about me.
I have a writing workshop thatI teach on how to publish,
whether that is in literaryjournals or whether you are
interested in getting an agentand a big fancy contract or even
a small press contract orself-publishing.
(28:37):
One of the things about writingthat I strongly believe in is
being a good literary citizen.
I spend a lot of time on socialmedia, not scrolling through
dog videos, but looking atwriters and writing
organizations.
I've curated my social mediafeeds so that there's no
politics, just a couple ofanimal pages and all kinds of
(29:04):
writing resources and writers.
And when I have clients, that Iget to know their needs, I see
something come across, anopportunity or something for
them, and I just send them atext message.
I just recently got a formerclient published in a very, very
long-standing journal because Isaw the opportunity and knew
(29:28):
she had some stuff and I said,hey, here's this thing, send it
in.
So I do my sessions amonth-long package of weekly
calls.
Occasionally, after one or twosessions, they will drop out
because they realize that itdoesn't make you a writer if you
pay a writing coach.
It makes you a writer when youwrite.
(29:49):
And these people just haverealized that I just don't have
time to do it and maybe I'mgoing to do it on my own or
maybe I'm just not going to doit.
I will do one call with peoplefor free just to assess your
situation.
I'm not out for money.
I'm out to help people who wantto be writers, because I got
(30:14):
some enormous help when Istarted out and I want to pay it
forward.
Writing has been the singlemost stressful thing I have done
to myself on purpose, and Iknow that for other writers.
So if you go to my website,tjbutlerauthorcom, my short
(30:35):
story collection is availablethere through any online
reseller, but you'll get to seea little book trailer and you'll
get to read about thecharacters that I have and learn
a little bit about me.
Jennifer (30:49):
I will put that link in the show notes.
TJ (30:52):
I would like to add to everybody who's contemplating
writing get out your favoritenotepad on your phone, your
laptop, an old fashionednotebook and a pen and write two
paragraphs, and if you don'tknow what to write about, you
start typing over and over again.
I don't know what to writeInstead of timer for 11 minutes,
(31:15):
and by the time 11 minutes havegone by, you will know what to
write, and then you can keepwriting or you can get up and
try it again tomorrow.
Jennifer (31:25):
Great advice.
I love that.
Thank you so much for sharing.
TJ (31:30):
Thank you so very much for having me today.
Jennifer (31:33):
Absolutely, TJ.
It has been my pleasure.
Thank you all for listening.
This is Jennifer Lee with the INeed Blue podcast.
To find everything you everwanted to learn about I Need
Blue, visit my website,wwwineedbluenet, and always
remember you are stronger thanyou think.
(31:54):
Until next time.
TJ (32:00):
Bye.
Everyone has a story.
They just don't always have aplace to share it.
Music.
Welcome to the I Need Bluepodcast.
This is Shar Good and I amhonored to introduce Jennifer
(00:23):
Lee, author, life coach and hostof today's show on the I Need
Blue podcast.
TJ (00:28):
MUSIC.
Jennifer (00:41):
Thank you for that warm introduction, shar, and
welcome to I Need Blue, thepodcast about to take you on an
extraordinary journey whereprofound narratives come to life
, one captivating episode at atime.
I'm your host, jennifer Lee,and I founded this podcast
(01:01):
because I know there is healingand sharing.
Each story you will hear sharedon this podcast is a testament
to our collective strength,innate ability to transform in
the incredible power of healing.
Please remember you are neveralone.
Please visit and share mywebsite with those seeking
(01:23):
connection and inspirationwwwineedbluenet.
Thank you, shar Good, forcomposing and performing the
introduction medley for I NeedBlue.
You can find information aboutShar on her website,
wwwshargoodcom.
(01:43):
Before starting today's episode,I must provide a trigger
warning.
I Need Blue features graphicthemes, including, but not
limited to, violence, abuse andmurder, and may not be suitable
for all listeners.
Please take care of yourselfand don't hesitate to ask for
help if you need it.
Now let's get started withtoday's story.
(02:06):
There are different ways toshare your trauma.
For instance, I founded apodcast, offer personal life
coaching and wrote a book.
Everyone experiences theirhealing journey in their own way
.
My guest today found writing tobe the healing journey she
(02:26):
needed Once she permittedherself to write.
The healing was profound.
She needed to help others putpen to paper.
Today, we are going to focus onhow to write your trauma.
Only 3% of writers who start anovel finish it.
Tiffany helps aspiring writersput pen to paper and keep the
(02:52):
process going.
She is an author living inVirginia with her husband and
dog.
She enjoys helping writers findtheir voice, tell their stories
and guide those who want tobegin.
Her short story collection,dating Silky Maxwell, is
available online at yourfavorite bookseller.
(03:15):
Tiffany, thank you for being myesteemed guest today and
welcome to the I Need Bluepodcast.
TJ (03:25):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to share mystory and help writers and just
people listening who areinterested in it.
Jennifer (03:34):
Absolutely.
And before I hit the recordbutton, you and I were kind of
chatting about the importance ofwriting For some.
They're not quite ready to puttheir voice behind their story.
They may never be ready, butputting it on paper is a great
way to sort out all of thosethoughts that are going through
your head and createorganization out of.
(03:56):
For some is this absolute chaos.
When did you realize you neededto write a book?
TJ (04:05):
I was one of those kids that said I wanted to be a writer
when I grew up, but I didn'tkeep on writing.
I dropped that and went alongin my life and had jobs and
relationships and a couple yearsago, I realized that I needed
to start writing and I wasn'tsure what did it.
(04:27):
I just thought, after notwriting for years, I wrote a
little bit in college and youknow I'm in my late 40s, and so
this really came to me later inlife.
But I thought, you know, I havesome stories to tell.
So I started writing what'scalled flash fiction, which is
little stories that are athousand words or less.
(04:50):
Then I thought, you know, oh, Ireally have something here.
I had some positive feedback andI estranged myself from my
mother in 2017 and it was big,big feelings because I was just
getting into writing seriouslyas an adult, with all my life
(05:14):
experience and my education,whereas you know school and also
life education, and so the twokind of came together, realizing
that you know, I had stories totell and I did not want to sit
down and write a memoir because,you know, I thought about you
(05:37):
know who's gonna read it, andalso the big thing was.
I don't want to focus on thethings that happen to me and put
them down on pen and paper andthen have someone read it and
judge my lived experience.
So I thought, if I'm gonna dosomething with this, I can tell
(05:58):
my stories in fiction.
I worked out some personalissues on the page and I kept
writing and, through the magicof how the universe works, I now
have a short story collectionthat is out.
Jennifer (06:16):
That is awesome, and you said something that I wasn't
familiar with Flash fiction.
So is your current book?
Does it fit in that category offlash fiction, where it's under
a thousand words, or does eachstory within your book fit into
that category?
TJ (06:34):
I started writing flash fiction as a way to kind of get
my arms around.
You know, here's a containerthat you can put a story in.
My short stories are typicalshort story length but when I
was starting out as a writer itwas really daunting to think
that I might have to write 20pages.
(06:56):
But the shorter form they'recalled micro if you're, you know
, 300, 500, 700 words, and thenthey're called flash when
they're around a thousand.
The short form as a legitimate,recognized form, allowed me to
(07:17):
feel like I was writing and notjust scribbling down some stuff
but really writing, and I didn'thave to tell huge stories.
You know, 500 words is about apage and if you think about
somebody just starting outsaying I want to tell stories, I
(07:37):
want to write, I want to putsomething on the page, I'm not
sure what, knowing that you knowsomebody's giving you
permission, knowing that it'sokay to write a scene in 500
words, you know you, a validstory is what happened that one
(07:58):
time at Thanksgiving at thedinner table.
What happened to you that onetime?
Your mother, something,something, something.
And not having to describeeverything, you don't even have
to write conversation, you justtell a little anecdote, you just
(08:20):
tell you know what happenedthen and there, and having the
freedom to say I can make thisas shortest to paragraphs or I
can keep going and going until Ihave some pages, it really
allowed me to figure out what Iwas doing on the page.
Because if I had come into thisthinking, oh okay, well,
(08:43):
writers write novels, or writerswrite, you know, articles in
the New York Times and writersdo all of these very fancy
things, I'm just a regularperson.
I don't know if I would havekept with it, but embracing the
short form allowed me to getgood enough that I was
(09:04):
comfortable writing shortstories and writing longer
things and then sending them topeople and then getting them
published, which is a wholedifferent story.
Jennifer (09:15):
You talked about giving yourself permission.
Did somebody give youpermission to write these things
down?
Or was it yourself getting to apoint in your healing journey
where you said I'm giving myselfpermission?
TJ (09:30):
It didn't really have permission as much as a
compulsion.
I wrote these two pieces, twoextreme childhood situations,
and I wrote these stories inwhat's called second person.
Second person is where you sayyou, whereas first person is I
(09:51):
did something, and third personis we, they, he, she did
something.
So writing in second persontakes me, takes the writer out
of it, because you will say youopened the door slowly, you
looked inside the room and sawsomething Writing it as you
(10:15):
makes it the reader, and that'snot a very popular form.
But I wrote these two reallytraumatic things in second
person.
I haven't reread them, but itallowed me to kind of like break
the seal, I guess.
(10:36):
And then I started writing alittle more.
I.
So I I didn't necessarily havepermission, as much as figuring
it out.
But in talking to newer writersI know that so many people feel
intimidated or they say, ohwell, I'm not really a writer.
(10:57):
Well, yes, you are.
If you are writing, if you wantto write, yes, you can be a
writer, you are a writer.
I joined a local writers groupthat met at an organic market
every other week and that kindof got me started.
And so now, with writing groupsbeing on Zoom and in person.
(11:23):
It is not difficult to find awriting group and join and
connect with other writers.
Jennifer (11:32):
Right.
So after you wrote those twoshort stories in second person
using the word you, how did youfeel afterwards?
TJ (11:41):
Super traumatized.
So I sent one in and Ipublished it in a literary
journal, which is a format thatanybody can send in their work
to literary journals and bepublished.
And I used a different name tosubmit it.
And when they told me it waspublished, I was excited because
(12:02):
I got some published work andI'm not sure why I sent it in,
but I just wanted to kind of putit out there.
And then when I heard from thejournal that it was released, I
went to the website and I readmaybe two sentences and closed.
I just closed my laptop screenand I thought you know, I don't
(12:24):
want to read that.
I've put it out there.
I have.
I've taken the first step as awriter now kind of ripping the
bandaid off.
Now let me try to explore somedifferent things.
Then it kind of happened that Iwas starting to write about bad
(12:47):
mothers and writing aboutdaughters who had to find their
way in the world, and my shortstory collection has a lot of
bad mothers and a lot of womenwho are making choices based on
the tools that they have, andnot all of those tools are
(13:09):
enough.
That was kind of my start for,like you know, how did I feel
not so great.
But how did I feel later, whenI was not writing about the most
raw unhealed wound possible?
Much better about myself.
Jennifer (13:25):
Right, because I wanted to go back to where you
said you felt super traumatized,because there are those
listening who, after listeningto you, may decide to write and
also may feel super traumatized.
So I wanted you to let themknow your journey of, even
though you felt these intenseemotions, what did you do to
(13:46):
work through them?
Did you seek help at that timeor was continuing to write the
therapy that you needed?
So that's a really interestingquestion.
TJ (13:58):
The two early pieces were just exploring writing and
exploring trauma.
I had very recently estrangedmyself from my mother, so that
brought up, you know, decades ofreally hard emotional things to
(14:18):
deal with.
And when I realized that Iwanted to tell my truth but I
didn't want to do that to myselfagain and I didn't want to
write a memoir I realized that Icould take situations from my
life and fictionalize them.
So many trauma survivors, wehave normalized our experiences
(14:45):
so we can go through and if youmeet with a new therapist or if
you get into a new relationshipor you're, you know, meeting
somebody new and kind of givingyour bite sized life history.
We have these bullet pointsthat we just go through Because
as trauma survivors we havepossibly told these things to
(15:08):
therapists or close friends orrelationships and so in
normalizing our trauma we havekind of downplayed it, whereas
we might hear someone else'strauma and feel like our heart
goes out to them, you know,because of what they've been
through, not realizing thatsomeone else is thinking the
(15:32):
same thing about our trauma.
I wanted to tell my stories butI wasn't really sure how to do
it in fiction and I have manymemoir pieces in my stories.
But the thing that I did wasthe body of work is kind of me
(15:53):
controlling the trauma narrative.
My stories are mostly fromwomen's point of view.
I gave these women agency at atime in situations when I was
powerless, and I gave them avoice when I had none.
That allowed me to control thetrauma narrative.
(16:17):
I have one story that outlines asituation, my life story,
essentially living with mymother before she gave up
custody and put me in fostercare at 13.
But the main character in thatstory is a man and myself, as
(16:42):
the bad seed of the family, Imade that his little sister.
So by changing up the detailsand giving them completely
different arc, I was able totell my story.
Because I'm a stranger from mymother, I don't necessarily have
to worry about her reading it,which most people don't have
(17:04):
that thing.
I would say that it's best forwriters to feel like they can
write freely, and that meanschanging characters, sexes, that
means blending three differentpeople into one character.
That means fictionalizing thedetails so that nobody says, hey
(17:28):
, you're writing about me.
Many people successfully writememoirs and they show their
family members the stories toget permission Others who may be
on the outs with their familiesand don't have as good
relationships.
They just write their truth.
That can be good or bad, ormaybe we just write and it's not
(17:53):
to be published.
Maybe the goal is to write forthe joy of it but not send it
out into the world.
Just get our story on paper.
Jennifer (18:04):
Right, I have a ton of poems that are in a folder.
That is where they stay and I'mokay with that.
They were healing at the time.
I don't feel I have to go backand read them.
Nothing like that.
You know earlier when youtalked about the short stories,
you don't have to be asdescriptive.
Sometimes less detail gives thereader the opportunity to use
(18:29):
their imagination but then alsorecall a situation that relates
to them.
So rather than saying I went toa beach with purple sand, yada
yada, yada, yada, yada yada,when you just say the beach.
Now they can go back to theirmemory of going to the beach and
bring themselves a little moreinto the story and the
(18:49):
understanding, maybe, of whatthat character was going through
.
Do you agree with that thoughtprocess?
TJ (18:56):
Absolutely so.
Stephen King wrote this reallypowerful book called On Writing
and it is part memoir, part hiswriting philosophy, and I
recommend that everybody read it.
It's a quick read and it's justgreat.
So one of the things he says ohmy gosh, I hope it is in this
(19:18):
book, but that's a good bookanyway.
So he says that rather thandescribing a character by saying
they had here's their haircolor and eye color and here's
their shape and their nose wasbig and their hands were hairy,
rather than saying that he wouldsay something like she looked
like the kind of woman thatshopped at thrift stores.
(19:41):
And everybody who's listeninghas now just decided what that
woman looks like.
For me, because I do a lot ofsecondhand shopping, I'm like,
oh, she's cool.
And then some people who maybehave never been into a thrift
shop, they might think, oh, shelooks some way.
And so describing a characterwith those simple words looks
(20:03):
like they shop at thrift storesthat speaks volumes.
When we are describing a room,you don't need to describe every
single thing in there.
If you want to let your readersknow that the person has an
interest in music, you can skipeverything but point out that
(20:26):
they had a piano in the room andthere was framed art on the
wall with music notes.
And right there we know thatperson inhabits a room that
supports their musical interest.
Without going into any detailabout the couch and the carpet
and the drapes and all thatstuff, Okay, so that is amazing.
Jennifer (20:48):
I'm so glad you shared the examples because I too am a
thrift shopper, and more sowhen I was younger is I wanted
to look nice, but I couldn'tafford to shop off the rack.
Yeah, same, yes, uh-huh, andthat was for me thrift.
There weren't.
Well, guess, I looked like Ishopped at thrift.
(21:08):
But you can find a really greatstuff at the thrift store, I'm
telling you.
But when you said that, yeah,there's a natural inclination of
what someone would look like,perceptions and whatnot, but we
can defy that perception, right,of course I like when you
talked about describingcharacters, for me, being a
(21:31):
memoir, I changed names.
There really isn't muchdescription in my characters,
also for legality reasons,because I did not have
permission to write about theother characters in my book.
But when I reached out to alawyer, he said as long as you
don't give a lot ofdistinguishing features,
nobody's going to know whoyou're talking about.
(21:53):
And nobody does.
The average reader has no ideawho I'm talking about.
They have the name of thecharacter and that's it.
There's nothing else.
How long did it take you towrite your book?
TJ (22:04):
Okay, so I finished this collection.
When I say finished, I'm doingair quotes finished the
collection in 2020.
And along the way, I wentthrough two agents.
I had a small press contractthat I pulled.
I wrote a novel that's in thedumpster, and so when I ended up
(22:30):
with this contract that has nowjust been published from, in
the publication process Irevised my every story again.
So to start with saying, here'sa completed short story
collection longer than a year,and then it went through a
(22:50):
number of revisions.
Short stories are a thing,because I have 11 of them and I
had to come up with 11 differentworlds.
When I am in the mindset ofbeing a writer, I can kind of do
that, but then I can't switchgears to being a photographer.
I have to focus on one thing ata time, but writing a book
(23:15):
takes a long time.
If you can knock out a book ina year, that might not be your
best work.
Speed is not of the essence.
There is a thing in Novembercalled NaNoWriMo, which is
National Write a Novel Month,and people try to write a 50,000
(23:38):
word novel in a month.
That is hard to do, and then ittakes, you know, months and
months and months of revision toget it right.
It's not necessarily the timebecause we have as just citizens
of the world.
We have families, we have jobs,we have other things.
(24:01):
We want to sometimes watchYouTube rather than sit down and
write.
Writing is a commitment.
Writing is for me.
Writing is really hard, butI'll tell you what not writing
is harder, so it's notnecessarily the calendar time
that it takes to write the book.
(24:22):
It is the time that you cantake from your life to do this
thing.
So I work part-time as awriting coach and I'm not
reading people's writing.
I'm working more as a writer'stherapist.
There's a lot of junk on socialmedia garbage about who is and
(24:43):
who is not a valid writer.
The writing process is not allyour fingers typing words on a
keyboard.
The writing process is goingfor a walk and working out plot
points, going for a drive.
You know how we always get thegreatest ideas when we're in the
shower or when we're washingdishes.
(25:05):
It's a muscle memory that yourbody goes into that puts your
brain in a creative state Whileyou are, you know, walking your
dog and you have to pull outyour phone and say, hey, google,
send an email and then do yourplot point.
Those are all part of thewriting process.
(25:25):
It's part of the writingprocess when you, before you
fall asleep, think of a crazything that you have to put in
your story and you send yourselfthis email and when you wake up
it's like snails with shirtseating waffles and you're like
wait a minute, that was the bestidea last night.
What does it mean?
So, rather than the time ittakes, it is however long it
(25:52):
takes until it's done, reallyRight.
Jennifer (25:55):
To add to that, I started writing my dating abuse
story 17 years ago.
Six years ago, I ripped it allup, thinking that that was
prohibiting me from healingwhich was not the case and so I
picked my pen back up and becameintentional.
For me, it was about beingintentional, and some could
(26:15):
describe that as just allocatingthe time, dedicating yourself
to that, and in a busy worldthat can be hard to do.
But I love when you talk abouthow we're allocating time for
YouTube, for Facebook, forInstagram.
Imagine if you just took half ofthe time that you spent
scrolling through your phone anddedicated that to writing
(26:37):
something, even if it's justjournaling.
It's amazing what comes out ofjournaling.
Then you would realize thatwriting isn't quite as hard as
you thought.
I was going to ask you tobasically dig into what you do
to help others as a writingcoach.
I want to give you anopportunity to elaborate a
(26:57):
little bit more on that howpeople can contact you, and if
there was something else youwanted to talk about that I
missed, I definitely want to getthat in here as well.
TJ (27:11):
So I take clients who need help not with their actual words
, but just with a writingprocess in general.
This can be an accountabilitybuddy.
I can be a cheerleader when yousay I'm going to write a
chapter by the next time we talkand then you know that you told
(27:35):
me this so you're going to haveto have it done.
There's a lot of emotionwrapped up when we are telling
our stories.
I've been through a lot.
I was in foster care.
I aged out of foster carewithout any family support.
I came from a home withdomestic violence and alcoholism
(27:55):
.
So I have seen a lot andknowing with my experiences, I'm
a good ear to listen whenwriters are trying to process
some of their things and writeabout them.
My website is tjbutlerauthorcomand on that website that's kind
(28:16):
of everything about me.
I have a writing workshop thatI teach on how to publish,
whether that is in literaryjournals or whether you are
interested in getting an agentand a big fancy contract or even
a small press contract orself-publishing.
(28:37):
One of the things about writingthat I strongly believe in is
being a good literary citizen.
I spend a lot of time on socialmedia, not scrolling through
dog videos, but looking atwriters and writing
organizations.
I've curated my social mediafeeds so that there's no
politics, just a couple ofanimal pages and all kinds of
(29:04):
writing resources and writers.
And when I have clients, that Iget to know their needs, I see
something come across, anopportunity or something for
them, and I just send them atext message.
I just recently got a formerclient published in a very, very
long-standing journal because Isaw the opportunity and knew
(29:28):
she had some stuff and I said,hey, here's this thing, send it
in.
So I do my sessions amonth-long package of weekly
calls.
Occasionally, after one or twosessions, they will drop out
because they realize that itdoesn't make you a writer if you
pay a writing coach.
It makes you a writer when youwrite.
(29:49):
And these people just haverealized that I just don't have
time to do it and maybe I'mgoing to do it on my own or
maybe I'm just not going to doit.
I will do one call with peoplefor free just to assess your
situation.
I'm not out for money.
I'm out to help people who wantto be writers, because I got
(30:14):
some enormous help when Istarted out and I want to pay it
forward.
Writing has been the singlemost stressful thing I have done
to myself on purpose, and Iknow that for other writers.
So if you go to my website,tjbutlerauthorcom, my short
(30:35):
story collection is availablethere through any online
reseller, but you'll get to seea little book trailer and you'll
get to read about thecharacters that I have and learn
a little bit about me.
Jennifer (30:49):
I will put that link in the show notes.
TJ (30:52):
I would like to add to everybody who's contemplating
writing get out your favoritenotepad on your phone, your
laptop, an old fashionednotebook and a pen and write two
paragraphs, and if you don'tknow what to write about, you
start typing over and over again.
I don't know what to writeInstead of timer for 11 minutes,
(31:15):
and by the time 11 minutes havegone by, you will know what to
write, and then you can keepwriting or you can get up and
try it again tomorrow.
Jennifer (31:25):
Great advice.
I love that.
Thank you so much for sharing.
TJ (31:30):
Thank you so very much for having me today.
Jennifer (31:33):
Absolutely, TJ.
It has been my pleasure.
Thank you all for listening.
This is Jennifer Lee with the INeed Blue podcast.
To find everything you everwanted to learn about I Need
Blue, visit my website,wwwineedbluenet, and always
remember you are stronger thanyou think.
(31:54):
Until next time.
TJ (32:00):
Bye.
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