November 6, 2023 • 40 mins
Get ready to be captivated as Lois Gibson, the world’s most successful forensic artist, enthralls us with her powerful story of transforming personal trauma into a mission to fight crime. With her unique talent, Lois Gibson is recorded in The Guinness Book of World Records as "The World's Most Successful Forensic Artist." Her sketches have helped law enforcement identify more than 751 criminals, making mere sketches a profound weapon against crime.
Lois's fascinating journey continues beyond there. She's a remarkable artist and a provider of invaluable safety tips. With keen insights into crime avoidance, Lois teaches us how to decipher the expression of potential criminals and what steps to follow if we feel threatened. There's also a deep discussion on the significance of trusting your gut instinct and learning from the news to keep ourselves safe.
Take advantage of this compelling exploration of forensic art, its profound impact on law enforcement, and how it's changing the world, one sketch at a time.
**Contains graphic content about murder, sexual assualt and other topics which may be triggering.
Contact Lois:
https://loisgibson.com/
Email:
giblois@comcast.net
Resources discussed in the episode:
Faces of Evil- Murderers, Kidnappers, Rapists and the Forensic Artist Who Puts Them Behind Bars by Lois Gibson and Deanie Francis Mills
https://www.amazon.com/Faces-Evil-Kidnappers-Murderers-Forensic/dp/0882822586/ref=la_B001IZX44A_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1489704765&sr=1-2
Forensic Art Essentials - A Manual for Law Enforcement Artists by Lois Gibson
https://www.amazon.com/Forensic-Art-Essentials-Enforcement-Artists/dp/0123708982/ref=la_B001IZX44A_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1489704765&sr=1-
Connect with Jen:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ineedbluepodcast/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/needbluepodcast
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp1q8SfA_hEXRJ4EaizlW8Q
Website: https://ineedblue.net/
The background music is written, performed, and produced exclusively by Char Good.
https://chargood.com/home
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Everyone has a story.
They just don't always have aplace to share it Music.
Welcome back.
This is Jen Lee, creator andhost of I Need Blue podcast.
True Crime to True Life.
As a survivor of armed robberyand abduction, I understand the
(00:25):
trauma and triggers survivorsexperience Knowing this and
through my powerful podcast, Ioffer survivors a safe place to
share their lived experiences.
Survivors need blue to feelthey belong, they are loved,
understood and my favoriteempowered.
(00:47):
Please note I Need Blue doescontain sensitive topics which
could be triggering.
Please seek help if needed andremember you always come first.
I Need Blue episodes can befound on Apple Podcast, Spotify
and many listening platforms,including my website,
(01:07):
wwwineedbluenet.
There you will find valuableresources, safety tips, my newly
released book and e-book why ISurvived by Jennifer Lee.
I would like to thank Shar Good, the talented violinist who
composed and performed thisopening music.
(01:28):
You can find information aboutShar Good on my website.
As always, thank you forlistening.
Let's begin today's episode.
Lois Gibson is recorded in theGuinness Book of World Records
as the world's most successfulforensic artist.
Her sketches have helped lawenforcement identify more than
(01:52):
751 criminals.
Wow, she drew the firstforensic sketch shown on
America's Most Wanted, whichhelped identify the suspect and
solve the case.
Today we will discuss thetraumatic event of her past
(02:14):
which led to her calling tocatch criminals through forensic
sketching.
We will discuss crime avoidancetips, which, as the listeners
know, is a passionate topic forme.
We delve into why only a fewstates employ forensic artists
(02:34):
and how you can become aforensic artist.
Lois published a textbookForensic Art essentials a manual
for law enforcement artists, byLois Gibson.
I will include the Amazon linkin the show notes.
She also wrote Faces of EvilMurderers, Kidnappers, Rapists
(02:58):
and the Forensic Artist who putsthem behind bars, by Lois
Gibson and Deanie Francis Mills.
After decades of catchingcriminals, Lois has a new
mission to create a movementresulting in every police
department employing a forensicartist.
(03:18):
Lois, thank you for being myguest today and welcome to the I
Need Blue podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I'm so glad to be here.
This is my place.
I was nearly killed by aviolent felon.
It was a sexual assault thatstrangled me almost to death and
I was too embarrassed to reportit.
I was destroyed and then I hada miracle from God six weeks
after my attack, even though Icouldn't report it, I saw him
(03:50):
get arrested for another crime.
I saw justice and that's how Ican stand to do what I do.
I've drawn since I was tiny andI've done lots of portraits.
After I got attacked I had thisintense desire to go back to
the middle of the country andthen I got an art degree and
(04:11):
went to the Riverwalk in SanAntonio and did about 3,000
tourist portraits.
They were realistic, they werenot caricatures, they were
really fine art portraits.
After 3,000 portraits, that's alot of practice.
If you're not very good, youdon't get past the first or
second one.
I did 3,000 and moved toHouston and I heard about all
(04:32):
the crime and I heard about aterrible rape.
I was with my girlfriend and weheard that a man had raped a
dance instructor in front of herlittle 12 year old students.
I thought I could draw apicture of all those little
girls that had seen him and mygirlfriend.
So I sent her to the gasstation.
I didn't go with her.
(04:52):
She looked at the guy.
She came back and described him.
Then we both went back to thegas station and it looked just
like the man she had described.
I broke down crying at the gaspump because I knew if I could
draw people.
I couldn't see From witnesseswho had seen crimes that I would
(05:13):
catch people.
Originally I just wanted tocatch a rapist, just one person.
I was dumb.
I didn't think.
Then, when I did attach myselfto the police department, they
used me over and over.
Now I'm in the Gittis Book ofRecords.
I've helped catch more than1,266 of some of the worst
(05:35):
felons that walked the face ofthe earth.
So this has been terrifictherapy.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
That's amazing To kind of put things in
perspective for people, for howlong you've been doing this and
your experience.
How long ago did the rape occur?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
I was attacked in 1970.
I was 20 years old.
I've been doing this for 40years at the Houston Police
Department.
I've worked 5,089 cases.
I have hours where I draw asketch of a woman that kidnaps a
10-hour-old baby with the momthat just gave birth.
(06:13):
It's been kidnapped.
I did the sketch of thekidnapper.
It looks like the kidnapperposed for it.
I drove home, I sat down andturned on the news and they said
they got the baby back.
I saw the nurse that was in thehospital holding the baby and
kissing it.
Wow, so yeah, I've been doingit for 40 years.
I've had two criminals that Isketched that.
(06:35):
When those criminals saw mysketch on TV they turned
themselves in.
One guy raped a 10-year-oldgirl and it wasn't very close
but he saw it and he turnedhimself in.
One guy killed a father and mywitness was 17-year-old, going
to work with his daddy at 5.30in the morning, sees a man shoot
him to death and then gothrough his pockets.
(06:57):
That guy felt guilty becausewhen he saw my sketch and it
wasn't the best I ever did hecalled and turned himself in.
But HPD took seven and a halfyears to give me a full-time job
.
45 states do not have aforensic artist in the entire
state.
Forensic Art Essentials.
I wrote that so even after mydeath, you can learn how to be a
(07:18):
forensic artist.
I dare you artists, practicethis with a friend.
You can draw people you can'tsee.
Get a friend to be yourquote-unquote witness.
Take a cell phone picture.
Hide the cell phone.
Don't cheat and draw fromsomeone's memory.
I promise you right now youwill shock yourself how
wonderful you are.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, yeah, I want to ask you because I know from my
robbery like I was amazedafterwards how many things that
I actually remembered Evenearlier that day customers that
had been in the store and inyada, yada.
But I'm curious, how much doyou think for you was intuition?
You had a talent, obviously fordrawing, but do you think you
(08:01):
have a special intuition?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
First of all, everybody is psychic.
I won't go into that, I'mpositive, it's God.
Secondly, you don't have tohave intuition.
If you read my book, the answerto how you get it out of the
witness is called sympathy love.
My attack being nearly killedhelps me do this, because I
(08:25):
literally tell the witness well,someone tried to kill me.
And then they just relaxbecause they know, I know kind
of sort of how they feel andthen if you feel sympathy, you
say the right things, you askthe right things, you act the
right way.
It's just human love and theability to draw and it's always
a wonderful thing for thewitness.
(08:48):
It's a soothing, therapeuticthing.
You make it therapeutic.
You have to make the personfeel better.
But Jen, you know thatinstinctively you got to be just
like a wonderful mama and yougot to love people.
I mean, didn't you figure out,when I got a little
four-year-old boy in Ulysses,kansas saw his mom and dad slash
(09:08):
to death the day he turned four?
He was a young four-year-oldbut I did a sketch nevertheless
from his memory because they hadthe Steinberg catalog, samantha
Steinberg catalog.
He picked out the features withhis little baby finger and I
put together a sketch, turned itaround.
You do the sketch with thewitness isn't looking from the
catalog and then you say I'mgoing to change anything you
(09:29):
want.
I turned it around to thisfour-year-old and he got really
mad because he goes why did youdraw that man?
He was mad.
But then after a secondeverybody started crying because
we had a picture of the guy andthey took it near the
neighborhood and everybodypointed to a house Go to the
house, go to the house.
They knocked on the door.
(09:50):
A guy came to the door thatlooked like the sketch.
He had the knife.
He confessed there was blood onthe knife.
But a being, but a being.
Artists could be solvingthousands of cases in this
country.
They are not being engaged.
I think artists cannot sketchan identifiable image from a
witness.
But I'm absolutely positiveafter 40 years, artists can do
(10:15):
it.
I had an officer with shot inthe head, shot in the back and
then, after he laid unconscious,the shooter, who was in escape
combat, got back in his car andran over him, drug him 65 feet.
He walked back and called inhis own assist and I went to the
hospital bed and he said Ididn't see anything.
I didn't see his face, I onlysaw the flash of the gun.
(10:37):
Future forensic artists, here'syour number one trick.
They all say they didn't seethe face.
Be nice, don't argue with themand then say, wow, what kind of
expression did they have?
If they answer that question,they saw the face and you're
going to get a sketch.
Paul, the officer that was shot, said he looked like a shark.
(11:00):
He looked like he didn't careabout anything at all.
I did the sketch.
A man was arrested forshoplifting a chainsaw from
Sears.
Two days later, two guys at thejail thought he looked like the
sketch.
They had a voice lineup or avideo lineup at Paul's hospital
room and he picked him out.
He got tried and convicted andthey went to the parking lot
(11:22):
where the attacker's car was.
He got life.
What was your most memorabledrawing?
I did the first sketch forAmerica's Most Wanted.
It was Opal Zacharias' murderon Chantilly Lane, and my
witness saw him jump over afence and looked at him and then
he jumped back over the fencebecause he didn't realize she
(11:42):
would be there.
She gave me a sketch.
They got an immediate tip thedetectives but for two years
they were looking for Dang Lee.
What about this tip?
We can't find him.
No, you got the name wrong.
It's Lee Dang, and they foundhim immediately.
And they solved it from mysketch on America's Most Wanted.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
That is awesome.
Was that earlier in your career?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That was really early in my career.
That was before I got a job.
It took seven and a quarteryears for law enforcement to get
a job, even though every thirdsketch would solve a crime and
scientifically there's been astudy in the forensic journal.
Officially it's 31% of the time.
Even in the worst circumstancesyour sketch artist is going to
(12:29):
solve your case.
In Kansas I have about 95% to100% success rate.
They fly me up there when theyhad bad crimes and just in
Kansas alone I've caught fourserial killers.
Get a sketch artist.
Kansas, full time, the wholestate Colorado.
Everybody does not have asketch artist.
(12:50):
You should have a sketch artistavailable for your crime
witnesses.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I have a question for you because there are obviously
times where you have justbrought in that missing piece
for them to solve the case andget the criminal.
Have you been threatened by anyof them?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
No, that's so sweet and I don't live in there.
And, to tell you the truth, thefear would be probably judges
and officers and DAs, even thecrooks.
I've seen them in court andthey look at me and it's like no
, I'm not afraid, I won't beafraid.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I know you're not afraid, but that doesn't mean
somebody won't send you a letterto be like watch your back.
They're a criminal.
Obviously they don't care right.
That's why they are in courtand in jail.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
True, but you're thinking like such an organized
person.
Most people think, oh, they'reso organized.
No, do you realize?
Almost 100% of the crimevictims think they're going to
come back and hurt them again.
But everybody and I have myspeech for them that no, they're
not going to come back.
But when I exercise and stuff,I carry a hidden weapon plus my
(13:59):
knowledge.
Girls, here's your tip to avoidcrime.
This will be universal.
If you are alone in a parkinglot or anywhere sort of open
public area anywhere, and if yousay see a male, okay, I'm sorry
, men, but 95% of violent crimeis for men.
So you're walking, you're afemale.
(14:20):
You see a man alone.
All you have to do is look atthe expression on their face.
You will know.
If they are fixing to come upand jack you for your purse or
your car, you will know and itwill stop him.
If you exhibit knowledge, you'llgo oh or whatever.
So just look at the face and ifyou think you need to, girl,
(14:41):
get in that car real quick andtake off, lock the door.
You know what the routine.
Run back in the mall.
If you're like Aunt Lois, maybeyou have a little weapon.
Surprise, but I've worked crimeso much, I've worked so many
murders, I have such an attitude.
If someone comes up and I don'teven have my weapon, I
absolutely know how, with mylarge fingers, to take the eye,
(15:01):
one of his eyes, out of his headand completely probably destroy
him.
I mean, I've worked too manymurders, I'm ready.
But girls, look at theexpression of the face of people
approaching you when you arealone and you'll know what
they're going to do.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
What other crime avoidance tips do you have?
We had a little conversationabout this and it's definitely
something that's important toour audience.
I am my demographic, so it isthe female.
For the most part, you're 18 to55.
Anybody can be a victim at anyage, not to say you know.
If you're not in that age group, you're not susceptible, but
(15:38):
Well here's the number one thing.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
This is what you mess up on people and guys too.
If you've had a crime yes, canhappen to you, Believe it, Think
about it and when you hearcrimes, run the scenario of what
you might have done in thatsituation that could have saved
your life.
You hear the news every day,right?
You read the newspaper, maybenot Look at your phone, Hear
(16:02):
about a crime.
You hear about them in parkinglots.
I already told you what to do,but literally run the scenario.
You do it all the time anyway.
Then go a little further.
You drive up and you don'tleave your person in your car,
right?
Okay, so you're trying toprevent crime.
I was in Palm Springs walkingwith a friend and a man was
(16:23):
behind us and he seemed sohealthy.
He was walking around, realpowerful and athletic, and me
and my friend were older and Isaid, oops, I need to come over
here and look at my eye and Ihad him just get near me while
this guy walked slowly past.
So he was in front of us and wewere behind him.
That was all I did.
Use your instincts and gutinstincts whatever you want to
(16:43):
call them gut.
Quote, unquote the psychethings that people have told me
about that saved their life.
You have that gut instinct andfollow it.
Follow it All kind of myvictims.
They said, man, I feltsomething before I walked in the
door and they didn't listen toit and they walked in, they got
attacked.
Follow your gut instinct andbelieve it could be you and
(17:05):
that's how you keep it frombeing you being a victim of
crime.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Right, don't dismiss it.
And you know, in my book thethird story is a similar
situation and I had met thisindividual and the first time I
met him he left me with thisfeeling of something's not right
.
Right, but I dismissed itbecause in my head I was like,
oh, you know, he's probably areally nice guy and I don't want
(17:31):
to be mean and all of theseother things.
And I should not have done that, because then that just led to
another situation later onduring that conference.
But don't dismiss it.
And there's nothing wrong tosay to somebody you know, you're
making me uncomfortable, right,there's nothing wrong with that
.
And for me in that position Ididn't have that confidence.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You had an instinct but next time you'll be fine,
right.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Absolutely, and because of it I live in a
different world where I knowthings can happen.
But even in that situation andknowing things can happen, I
still dismissed it.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I have been doing sketches for four years.
Of course, before the sketchesand everything, I got nearly
strangled to death, horrible,really near death experience.
So I've been doing sketches forfour years and I told girls
that were attacked especially,you'll know.
I told them the parking lot,the expression in the parking
lot, okay.
So after I had my baby, who was11 months old, I'm shopping and
(18:33):
I saw a guy's expression and Ihad four seconds to get ready
and I was right.
He walked up and I was readyemotionally.
He put a knife in my face andthen he put it down on my
stomach.
He says get in the car andeverything will be okay.
11 years before I met him, Iknew do not get in a vehicle or
(18:55):
a house or any area.
He says get in the car andeverything would be all right.
So I had ankle strap, highheels, it didn't matter.
I twisted my arm.
He had to hold my wrist.
I twisted away and I ran and hegoes don't run or I'll shoot
you.
So I kept running and I ran azigzag and high ankle strap,
(19:16):
high heels, try that.
I got 30 people together and Isaid he's out there.
He threatened me with a knifeand some woman said well, you're
not cut, okay.
Anyway, 30 people surroundedhim.
He went to court.
He got convicted.
They found the knife.
He threw it in a ditch, etcetera.
Be ready, think it could happento you.
(19:37):
That makes you safer.
And you better tell your babykids I'm sorry, kids, here's my
tip Tell your babies.
No adult should have to ask youfor help.
No adult this is me, mom, papaor me no adult should ask you
for help finding puppies oranything.
If an adult asks you for help,that means run away, scream.
(19:59):
Feel free to scream.
What should you scream?
I've told people this is adultsand children for years.
Finally, I had one reallyintelligent Asian woman do it
and she knew what to do.
If you are in trouble, do notjust scream.
Scream fire, fire.
Every single person will jumpimmediately because they think
(20:22):
they could get burned.
Firework goes, scream fire.
A girl did that and she got 20or 30 people.
Don't do it if you're faking it, kids.
No, no, no, no, no.
You scream fire.
Everybody will jump and atleast look at you to see if
you're burning and they want totake a video, right, but anyway.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Sadly, that is true.
I never thought of that.
We always talk about screaming,but wow, Even me.
As soon as you said fire, Icame to a different alert level.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
It's a quickie.
That means even people thatmove slow.
They're going to go quick and,I'm serious, they're going to at
least open the door and look.
Please memorize that everybody,if you really need help, you're
going to get it.
Also, I need to bring this upbecause I've worked so many
crimes.
Yes, I've had four people.
They had to run out nakedbecause they were being either
(21:15):
arm dropped or raped or whatever.
You will get help if you runout naked.
You will.
I'm sorry about yourembarrassment.
How about those extra pounds?
Never mind To save your ownlife, please.
Running naked works as anothersafety tip.
I don't care if you think yourneighbors are tacky, or I don't
(21:37):
care.
Whatever it is.
As a matter of safety, go overand knock on the door and go.
You know, as a matter of safety, aunt Lois says I need to meet
you.
This is what I look like.
I see you, I'm over there.
You need help.
Run to my door and I'll helpyou.
You should know what theneighbors look like.
You don't have to be friends,you just like that's what they
(21:58):
look like and meet them andunderstand at the very least.
When it's really bad if it'slife or death or armed robbery
or whatever, you can run to them.
If somebody comes in the frontI worked over 100 home invasion
If you hear people coming in thefront and you'll know if it's a
breaking.
Now I don't know if you'regoing to have enough snap to do
this.
If they're coming in one way,go out the other way.
(22:21):
Open the door, open a window,take your cell phone hopefully
naked, remember that's okay, butget out.
If they're going to come robyour house and you leave it,
that means they have to stoprobbing your house because they
know you could be calling 911.
And if they do rob, nothing inyour home is worth you being
killed.
So get out the other way.
Any feelings you have aboutgold, jewels or anything in your
(22:46):
house appliances, vehicles youcare more about your life Go out
the other way and let them haveit.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Very true.
Do you teach classes on this,like it's very?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
good?
Well, because I've talked toover 5,000 people and they said
this happened, that happened andthis happened.
I can't forget them.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Now I have a question .
You've been doing this for somany years and, like you've said
a few times now, just thehomicide, the things that you've
seen, the things that you'veheard.
How are you taking care ofyourself, your well-being, your
mental health, because that's alot of continual conversation
and being involved in thosetypes of things?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Good, question the Holy Ghost.
Were you to be like a Christianand you understand that that's
going to comfort you.
And I get special comfort whenI get a very bad call.
I get extra comfort and youfeel like a welling up in your
chest, like when you see yourchild do something makes you
proud, or when you fall in loveyou feel it in your chest.
(23:50):
I got a call.
A 9-year-old girl sees hermother, her hogtide, strangled
to death, raped, and then herapes the little girl.
It's 3.30 in the morning andthe chief says come on down.
And I felt the welling up in mychest.
I'm given special comfort byHeavenly Father.
And then, of course, in the endwhen they catch the person,
(24:13):
they caught the person from that9-year-old.
I went and she was 9 years old.
I did a sketch and they justtook the sketch to the next
apartment complex down and thesecurity guard pointed to a door
and they knock on the door andthe guy says no, he looks like
the sketch.
No, I was here all night.
My girlfriend will tell you.
Behind him is stacked all kindof stuff stolen from the murder
(24:34):
scene.
So I handle this becauseHeavenly Father made me to do
this and then I fell in lovewith somebody after I did
thousands of portraits and movedto Houston and then I was drawn
to the police department and,given the strength to fight, the
Houston police departmentFought me.
They said we don't need you,you need forensic artists.
(24:54):
I'm positive, Go to Lois Gibson.
I have a YouTube telling youhow to get practices.
If you do those practices, ifyou can draw real good and you
think you got the inner strength, the inner toughness to stand
this work, if you think you cando it, see that YouTube video.
And if you go and say, hey, I'mgoing to draw somebody in front
of you, with you havingsomebody from your personnel be
(25:17):
a witness, I promise you'll beable to do it.
Convince them that they shouldat least try you on a freelance
basis.
If they tag $5,000 in City Hall, you charge 500 a case.
In 10 cases, I promise you, ina smaller city, you at the very
least will solve three cases.
An artist, become a forensicartist.
(25:39):
You want to draw and get themost fulfilling job, the most
difficult job.
If you think you have it andit's just a simple drawing.
Most people use graphite pencil.
I use pastels on gray paper.
It's a monochromatic Understand, it's not full color.
So you go quick and you got tobe able to erase it and change
it when the witness says and yougot to have a witness tell you
(26:01):
what to do and do exactly whatthey say submit to their will.
You can solve crimes.
45 states have no forensicartist.
Call me, I want you out there.
If you can draw anywhere, Iwill help you.
Find me lowest Gibsoncom andemail me.
(26:21):
I'll give you the hints.
By my book forensic artessentials, I wrote faces of
evil and it's about my bestcases that I helped solve.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, you're very confident in your approach when
it comes to law enforcement.
I know, like in ourconversation as well, you're
like we need them, even thoughyou have this frustration in
this mission over here, becauseyou know that they're needed.
Tell me, from your perspectiveand your experience, why we need
our law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Hey, jen Lee, thank you to bring me back because I
got my one bone to pick withthem.
I want to tell the public.
If you think that you shouldnot like law enforcement, you
just don't know one of them, oryou met one you didn't like
because you were speeding.
They have to be so strong.
In one year that I read about,there was over 6 million
(27:11):
interactions with lawenforcement and public.
It could have been a ticket orwhatever arrest, whatever.
Look, 99.9% of the time whenyou're with an officer, all you
have to do is follow theirorders, because that's actually
what you have to do and you'refine.
You are fine.
I've seen homicide detectiveswork murder cases.
(27:33):
I've seen them cry.
I saw a detective with a casewhere a blind woman, six and a
half months pregnant, was rapedand we saw that.
We saw that case.
But they care so much.
They are family people.
And this thing with hating yourpolice and defunding the biggest
(27:54):
mistake in the world.
And if you think you want tohate police, they've had police
since Roman times and sincebefore 4000 BC, 6000 years and
before.
We've always had to have police.
If you want to hate and destroyyour police, you want your
(28:14):
civilization to die and in areaswhere they have hated their
police more, we see that theircivilization is dying more than
places where they love theirpolice.
But they're deeply spiritual.
Or they could not handleworking crime and they couldn't
(28:34):
handle helping you with yourproblems.
They are superior in personaltoughness and in spirituality,
or they would all commit suicidewhen they weren't murders and
you could see the woman's handsup with cuts across where she
tried to fight the knife offbefore it hit her chest 20 times
.
No, they are spiritual and theycare.
Don't ruin your own city andyour own area and your own life
(28:58):
by hating cops.
Cops are you.
Love them, love yourself, loveyour city.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Thank you for sharing that.
And it's also true and, in allhonesty, our first responders,
even outside of law enforcement,you know their mental health is
such a topic of urgency andimportance because they do just
like you.
They see things we can'tpossibly imagine, and they see
(29:24):
it over and over and, over andover again.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Jim, we need the police.
Just trust me If you don'tunderstand, we need the police.
If you read a book aboutMarxism and you want us to be
Venezuela or whatever, or andyou are part of that is, you
have to destroy the police.
How about we'd be Americans andlove each other?
You can show you love yourcommunity and yourself by being
(29:48):
loving toward your officers.
And who doesn't lovefirefighters?
No, no, no, no.
Cute, cute, cute, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Has your laughter been part of your coping
mechanism of dealing with the?
Because you're funny like.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Officially I am.
I am the funniest person ifyou've almost been killed.
I covered in my book the HolyGrail of a Great Interview is to
get the witness to laugh.
I have witnesses obviously havebeen through the worst thing in
their life and a whole bunch ofthem have said because I do
know how to make people laughthey have said these witnesses
Wow, that's the first time I'velaughed.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Did Houston PD get another forensic artist once you
retired?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yes, I worked real hard and with great spirit.
I have four artists installedat HPD and they all took my
class and I love them and I helpthem, you know, give them hands
, stuff.
So you mentor, I mentor.
Yes, I've mentored people allover the world.
(30:53):
I started somebody's career inIsrael, romania, portugal,
brazil.
There is no forensic artist inthe entire continent of Europe
except for in Germany, britain.
No forensic artist.
No, they'll try to say, oh, wedo this, we do that, I don't
(31:14):
call it.
If you get a computer, that'snot it.
That's not it.
You have to have a human being.
Listen, computers don't work.
By the way, somebody out theretheir brain's going ask her, if
computers work, that computersdon't work.
Okay, so do it by hand artists.
If you can draw by hand, youcan do this.
You just need the SamanthaSteinberg catalog and you can do
(31:37):
it.
From a witness memory, I'mpositive.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah, and I'll put these links in the show notes so
people can easily find them.
So, aside from mentoring, whatdo you do in your spare time now
?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Well, now I'm doing the most exciting thing in my
life.
I'm so happy about it.
I'm doing paintings of the menwho died at the Alamo in the
Battle of the Alamo in 1836.
And there are no photographs ofthem, but I have taken
descendants photos andextrapolated the main features
(32:14):
and this does work successfully.
And feeding into that is myforensic art.
Being able to do that isbecause I was able to
successfully faciallyreconstruct skulls.
With only a skull I'vesuccessfully done faces, so I
have a deep understanding of theface.
And then I do age progressions.
(32:35):
So I do age progression andfacial reconstruction on skulls.
Rather, and because of that I'mtaking the descendants.
I've done four.
All my easel right now isWilliam P King.
They think he was 15 and maybedied the day he turned 16.
His uncle was there at thehouse and Colonel Travis came by
(32:59):
to pick up the uncle to fightin the Battle of the Alamo and
he volunteered to replace hisuncle, william P King, and he
died at the Alamo in 1836.
So they're hanging in themuseum behind the Alamo which I
need to bring up as aircondition.
If you're in San Antonio, yougo to the Alamo and then you go
behind it, the air conditionbuilding and you can see my
(33:22):
portraits.
They have lowest Gibson at thebottom.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
That's awesome.
That is like so purposeful too,especially for their living
relatives.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yes, the relatives.
It brings them to tears.
That's what I want.
I'm a Pisces.
I like emotion, but that meansit looks like them.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I don't even have to ask you what makes you happy
because, like you said, thatemotion bringing closure for
people, because when you catchthat criminal, that is part of
their whole closing process, ofcourse, and then they want
justice throughout the courtsystem as well.
So impactful.
I think there are thingsforensic artists, the impacts
they can have that they don'trealize.
It's not just sketching.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I know, but how sad.
I can't even allow myself tothink about Chicago and all the
crime they have.
And they have zero forensicartists to use.
Get a forensic artist.
I trained two and they used touse them, but they wouldn't use
them on cases, they made them doother things.
Law enforcement believe in aforensic artist.
(34:29):
If you have an artist and theyhave a catalog the Steinberg
catalog you have someone thatsaw a face.
Put them in a room with thatartist and in about an hour
you're going to get an image ofthe person for whom you search.
Use forensic artists, vet themand let them get with your
(34:51):
witnesses.
First of all, it makes thewitness feel terrific.
It makes them feel better.
It's another advocate.
Yeah, it's a vessel that thewitness gets to go.
Look, this is what they looklike.
Look, it's a beautiful unionbetween the witness and the
detective.
Before I die, I want to makethis happen.
(35:12):
People, we need forensicartists.
Contact me.
If you can draw, I will guideyou.
It won't be hard, it is notcomplicated, it's simple and you
can catch criminals.
Witness memory sketches thatcan help solve the case.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I'm positive In closing.
I was going to ask so what doesit take to be a forensic artist
?
But let me tell you what Iheard.
It's quite fascinating.
Empathy, like being able to getinto, knowing how they feel and
because of what you've beenthrough, you get it.
Making them laugh is soimportant to build that trust
(35:54):
and kind of like you said, someof them may not have laughed in
a long time and there is a levelof assertiveness.
We know your value, lois.
Right, but to prove anotherforensic artist's value to a
police department is kind oflike the challenge that you're
(36:15):
facing and your mission is tobreak down that barrier.
How is that going for?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
you.
Well, I've only started becauseI was so busy actually doing
the job.
I just don't know.
But God has guided me and Ijust honestly this is when you
know I'm throwing my hands up alittle bit I'm praying to God
that He'll help me somehow.
I may not accomplish this, but,heavenly Father, I pray.
(36:44):
Please open up minds to justone artist per jurisdiction.
There's artists that can drawso well and those sketches are
just one face fits, just a quicksketch.
I'll give you the courage.
I haven't even made it.
Do that for you and I want to.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
This is maybe a naive .
Do they teach that in collegeor anything?
Are there courses where you canlearn that?
Speaker 2 (37:13):
No, they do not teach forensic art.
Here's what's taking collegeAll kind of life drawing, just
drawing human beings, that's all.
Just draw human beings.
And the best forensic artistdidn't even go to college at all
.
Be a sympathetic person, drawpeople really well and really
quickly.
The best way to train yourselfis to be a sidewalk artist, like
in New Orleans or go to anyplace where there's foot traffic
(37:36):
.
And then you have to get a show.
Go, hey, let me just draw youfor practice, for $3, for the
paper or free, it doesn't matter.
Sit them down and everybodywill stare when you start
drawing.
And they go how much?
And the shill's paying nothing.
But you go yeah, that'll be $80, $90, $50, whatever you want to
say.
So if you draw people, livelike that for money, it will
(37:58):
force you to be fabulous.
Somebody in New Orleans that didportraits like me.
He pulled me aside and hebought me a beignet and a tea
and he said this gives you theability to love people.
It's a giving profession.
Do portraits, people.
It's also the most painful.
Come on, a lot of artists don'twant to do portraits.
Go ahead and jump in there,people and do portraits.
(38:19):
Have the courage to do it.
But there's people out there,they already got the talent.
This work is pure passion anddrawing.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Is there anything you want to add before I do my
closing?
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I'm not kidding.
I'm going to try to live aslong as I can, and my goal
before I die is to get forensicartists in all 45 states that do
not even have one in the entirestate.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Go ahead and give your contact information right
now.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
LoisGibsoncom.
L-o-i-s.
Superman's girlfriend, loisL-O-I-S Gibson.
Common spelling G-I-V-S-O-Ncom,or you can just Google me.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Awesome, and your books are on Amazon, so we'll
include the link for that, Iguess.
Then go to your website then toget your email to contact you.
That'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
GhibLoiscomcastnet.
Ghibloiscomcastnet.
Ghibloiscomcastnet.
Yeah, email me.
How do I be a forensic artist?
I don't care where you are.
Alaska doesn't have one people.
Okay, we got artists in Alaska.
Call me.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Awesome, Lois.
Thank you so much for being myguest today on the I Need Blue
podcast.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Oh, Jen, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
You're so welcome.
Absolutely.
This is Jen Lee with the I NeedBlue podcast.
To find all of my episodes andeverything you ever needed to
learn about I Need Blue, you cango to my website,
wwwineedbluenet, and rememberyou are stronger than you think.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
I Need Blue.
Everyone has a story.
They just don't always have aplace to share it Music.
Welcome back.
This is Jen Lee, creator andhost of I Need Blue podcast.
True Crime to True Life.
As a survivor of armed robberyand abduction, I understand the
(00:25):
trauma and triggers survivorsexperience Knowing this and
through my powerful podcast, Ioffer survivors a safe place to
share their lived experiences.
Survivors need blue to feelthey belong, they are loved,
understood and my favoriteempowered.
(00:47):
Please note I Need Blue doescontain sensitive topics which
could be triggering.
Please seek help if needed andremember you always come first.
I Need Blue episodes can befound on Apple Podcast, Spotify
and many listening platforms,including my website,
(01:07):
wwwineedbluenet.
There you will find valuableresources, safety tips, my newly
released book and e-book why ISurvived by Jennifer Lee.
I would like to thank Shar Good, the talented violinist who
composed and performed thisopening music.
(01:28):
You can find information aboutShar Good on my website.
As always, thank you forlistening.
Let's begin today's episode.
Lois Gibson is recorded in theGuinness Book of World Records
as the world's most successfulforensic artist.
Her sketches have helped lawenforcement identify more than
(01:52):
751 criminals.
Wow, she drew the firstforensic sketch shown on
America's Most Wanted, whichhelped identify the suspect and
solve the case.
Today we will discuss thetraumatic event of her past
(02:14):
which led to her calling tocatch criminals through forensic
sketching.
We will discuss crime avoidancetips, which, as the listeners
know, is a passionate topic forme.
We delve into why only a fewstates employ forensic artists
(02:34):
and how you can become aforensic artist.
Lois published a textbookForensic Art essentials a manual
for law enforcement artists, byLois Gibson.
I will include the Amazon linkin the show notes.
She also wrote Faces of EvilMurderers, Kidnappers, Rapists
(02:58):
and the Forensic Artist who putsthem behind bars, by Lois
Gibson and Deanie Francis Mills.
After decades of catchingcriminals, Lois has a new
mission to create a movementresulting in every police
department employing a forensicartist.
(03:18):
Lois, thank you for being myguest today and welcome to the I
Need Blue podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I'm so glad to be here.
This is my place.
I was nearly killed by aviolent felon.
It was a sexual assault thatstrangled me almost to death and
I was too embarrassed to reportit.
I was destroyed and then I hada miracle from God six weeks
after my attack, even though Icouldn't report it, I saw him
(03:50):
get arrested for another crime.
I saw justice and that's how Ican stand to do what I do.
I've drawn since I was tiny andI've done lots of portraits.
After I got attacked I had thisintense desire to go back to
the middle of the country andthen I got an art degree and
(04:11):
went to the Riverwalk in SanAntonio and did about 3,000
tourist portraits.
They were realistic, they werenot caricatures, they were
really fine art portraits.
After 3,000 portraits, that's alot of practice.
If you're not very good, youdon't get past the first or
second one.
I did 3,000 and moved toHouston and I heard about all
(04:32):
the crime and I heard about aterrible rape.
I was with my girlfriend and weheard that a man had raped a
dance instructor in front of herlittle 12 year old students.
I thought I could draw apicture of all those little
girls that had seen him and mygirlfriend.
So I sent her to the gasstation.
I didn't go with her.
(04:52):
She looked at the guy.
She came back and described him.
Then we both went back to thegas station and it looked just
like the man she had described.
I broke down crying at the gaspump because I knew if I could
draw people.
I couldn't see From witnesseswho had seen crimes that I would
(05:13):
catch people.
Originally I just wanted tocatch a rapist, just one person.
I was dumb.
I didn't think.
Then, when I did attach myselfto the police department, they
used me over and over.
Now I'm in the Gittis Book ofRecords.
I've helped catch more than1,266 of some of the worst
(05:35):
felons that walked the face ofthe earth.
So this has been terrifictherapy.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
That's amazing To kind of put things in
perspective for people, for howlong you've been doing this and
your experience.
How long ago did the rape occur?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
I was attacked in 1970.
I was 20 years old.
I've been doing this for 40years at the Houston Police
Department.
I've worked 5,089 cases.
I have hours where I draw asketch of a woman that kidnaps a
10-hour-old baby with the momthat just gave birth.
(06:13):
It's been kidnapped.
I did the sketch of thekidnapper.
It looks like the kidnapperposed for it.
I drove home, I sat down andturned on the news and they said
they got the baby back.
I saw the nurse that was in thehospital holding the baby and
kissing it.
Wow, so yeah, I've been doingit for 40 years.
I've had two criminals that Isketched that.
(06:35):
When those criminals saw mysketch on TV they turned
themselves in.
One guy raped a 10-year-oldgirl and it wasn't very close
but he saw it and he turnedhimself in.
One guy killed a father and mywitness was 17-year-old, going
to work with his daddy at 5.30in the morning, sees a man shoot
him to death and then gothrough his pockets.
(06:57):
That guy felt guilty becausewhen he saw my sketch and it
wasn't the best I ever did hecalled and turned himself in.
But HPD took seven and a halfyears to give me a full-time job
.
45 states do not have aforensic artist in the entire
state.
Forensic Art Essentials.
I wrote that so even after mydeath, you can learn how to be a
(07:18):
forensic artist.
I dare you artists, practicethis with a friend.
You can draw people you can'tsee.
Get a friend to be yourquote-unquote witness.
Take a cell phone picture.
Hide the cell phone.
Don't cheat and draw fromsomeone's memory.
I promise you right now youwill shock yourself how
wonderful you are.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, yeah, I want to ask you because I know from my
robbery like I was amazedafterwards how many things that
I actually remembered Evenearlier that day customers that
had been in the store and inyada, yada.
But I'm curious, how much doyou think for you was intuition?
You had a talent, obviously fordrawing, but do you think you
(08:01):
have a special intuition?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
First of all, everybody is psychic.
I won't go into that, I'mpositive, it's God.
Secondly, you don't have tohave intuition.
If you read my book, the answerto how you get it out of the
witness is called sympathy love.
My attack being nearly killedhelps me do this, because I
(08:25):
literally tell the witness well,someone tried to kill me.
And then they just relaxbecause they know, I know kind
of sort of how they feel andthen if you feel sympathy, you
say the right things, you askthe right things, you act the
right way.
It's just human love and theability to draw and it's always
a wonderful thing for thewitness.
(08:48):
It's a soothing, therapeuticthing.
You make it therapeutic.
You have to make the personfeel better.
But Jen, you know thatinstinctively you got to be just
like a wonderful mama and yougot to love people.
I mean, didn't you figure out,when I got a little
four-year-old boy in Ulysses,kansas saw his mom and dad slash
(09:08):
to death the day he turned four?
He was a young four-year-oldbut I did a sketch nevertheless
from his memory because they hadthe Steinberg catalog, samantha
Steinberg catalog.
He picked out the features withhis little baby finger and I
put together a sketch, turned itaround.
You do the sketch with thewitness isn't looking from the
catalog and then you say I'mgoing to change anything you
(09:29):
want.
I turned it around to thisfour-year-old and he got really
mad because he goes why did youdraw that man?
He was mad.
But then after a secondeverybody started crying because
we had a picture of the guy andthey took it near the
neighborhood and everybodypointed to a house Go to the
house, go to the house.
They knocked on the door.
(09:50):
A guy came to the door thatlooked like the sketch.
He had the knife.
He confessed there was blood onthe knife.
But a being, but a being.
Artists could be solvingthousands of cases in this
country.
They are not being engaged.
I think artists cannot sketchan identifiable image from a
witness.
But I'm absolutely positiveafter 40 years, artists can do
(10:15):
it.
I had an officer with shot inthe head, shot in the back and
then, after he laid unconscious,the shooter, who was in escape
combat, got back in his car andran over him, drug him 65 feet.
He walked back and called inhis own assist and I went to the
hospital bed and he said Ididn't see anything.
I didn't see his face, I onlysaw the flash of the gun.
(10:37):
Future forensic artists, here'syour number one trick.
They all say they didn't seethe face.
Be nice, don't argue with themand then say, wow, what kind of
expression did they have?
If they answer that question,they saw the face and you're
going to get a sketch.
Paul, the officer that was shot, said he looked like a shark.
(11:00):
He looked like he didn't careabout anything at all.
I did the sketch.
A man was arrested forshoplifting a chainsaw from
Sears.
Two days later, two guys at thejail thought he looked like the
sketch.
They had a voice lineup or avideo lineup at Paul's hospital
room and he picked him out.
He got tried and convicted andthey went to the parking lot
(11:22):
where the attacker's car was.
He got life.
What was your most memorabledrawing?
I did the first sketch forAmerica's Most Wanted.
It was Opal Zacharias' murderon Chantilly Lane, and my
witness saw him jump over afence and looked at him and then
he jumped back over the fencebecause he didn't realize she
(11:42):
would be there.
She gave me a sketch.
They got an immediate tip thedetectives but for two years
they were looking for Dang Lee.
What about this tip?
We can't find him.
No, you got the name wrong.
It's Lee Dang, and they foundhim immediately.
And they solved it from mysketch on America's Most Wanted.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
That is awesome.
Was that earlier in your career?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That was really early in my career.
That was before I got a job.
It took seven and a quarteryears for law enforcement to get
a job, even though every thirdsketch would solve a crime and
scientifically there's been astudy in the forensic journal.
Officially it's 31% of the time.
Even in the worst circumstancesyour sketch artist is going to
(12:29):
solve your case.
In Kansas I have about 95% to100% success rate.
They fly me up there when theyhad bad crimes and just in
Kansas alone I've caught fourserial killers.
Get a sketch artist.
Kansas, full time, the wholestate Colorado.
Everybody does not have asketch artist.
(12:50):
You should have a sketch artistavailable for your crime
witnesses.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I have a question for you because there are obviously
times where you have justbrought in that missing piece
for them to solve the case andget the criminal.
Have you been threatened by anyof them?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
No, that's so sweet and I don't live in there.
And, to tell you the truth, thefear would be probably judges
and officers and DAs, even thecrooks.
I've seen them in court andthey look at me and it's like no
, I'm not afraid, I won't beafraid.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I know you're not afraid, but that doesn't mean
somebody won't send you a letterto be like watch your back.
They're a criminal.
Obviously they don't care right.
That's why they are in courtand in jail.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
True, but you're thinking like such an organized
person.
Most people think, oh, they'reso organized.
No, do you realize?
Almost 100% of the crimevictims think they're going to
come back and hurt them again.
But everybody and I have myspeech for them that no, they're
not going to come back.
But when I exercise and stuff,I carry a hidden weapon plus my
(13:59):
knowledge.
Girls, here's your tip to avoidcrime.
This will be universal.
If you are alone in a parkinglot or anywhere sort of open
public area anywhere, and if yousay see a male, okay, I'm sorry
, men, but 95% of violent crimeis for men.
So you're walking, you're afemale.
(14:20):
You see a man alone.
All you have to do is look atthe expression on their face.
You will know.
If they are fixing to come upand jack you for your purse or
your car, you will know and itwill stop him.
If you exhibit knowledge, you'llgo oh or whatever.
So just look at the face and ifyou think you need to, girl,
(14:41):
get in that car real quick andtake off, lock the door.
You know what the routine.
Run back in the mall.
If you're like Aunt Lois, maybeyou have a little weapon.
Surprise, but I've worked crimeso much, I've worked so many
murders, I have such an attitude.
If someone comes up and I don'teven have my weapon, I
absolutely know how, with mylarge fingers, to take the eye,
(15:01):
one of his eyes, out of his headand completely probably destroy
him.
I mean, I've worked too manymurders, I'm ready.
But girls, look at theexpression of the face of people
approaching you when you arealone and you'll know what
they're going to do.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
What other crime avoidance tips do you have?
We had a little conversationabout this and it's definitely
something that's important toour audience.
I am my demographic, so it isthe female.
For the most part, you're 18 to55.
Anybody can be a victim at anyage, not to say you know.
If you're not in that age group, you're not susceptible, but
(15:38):
Well here's the number one thing.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
This is what you mess up on people and guys too.
If you've had a crime yes, canhappen to you, Believe it, Think
about it and when you hearcrimes, run the scenario of what
you might have done in thatsituation that could have saved
your life.
You hear the news every day,right?
You read the newspaper, maybenot Look at your phone, Hear
(16:02):
about a crime.
You hear about them in parkinglots.
I already told you what to do,but literally run the scenario.
You do it all the time anyway.
Then go a little further.
You drive up and you don'tleave your person in your car,
right?
Okay, so you're trying toprevent crime.
I was in Palm Springs walkingwith a friend and a man was
(16:23):
behind us and he seemed sohealthy.
He was walking around, realpowerful and athletic, and me
and my friend were older and Isaid, oops, I need to come over
here and look at my eye and Ihad him just get near me while
this guy walked slowly past.
So he was in front of us and wewere behind him.
That was all I did.
Use your instincts and gutinstincts whatever you want to
(16:43):
call them gut.
Quote, unquote the psychethings that people have told me
about that saved their life.
You have that gut instinct andfollow it.
Follow it All kind of myvictims.
They said, man, I feltsomething before I walked in the
door and they didn't listen toit and they walked in, they got
attacked.
Follow your gut instinct andbelieve it could be you and
(17:05):
that's how you keep it frombeing you being a victim of
crime.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Right, don't dismiss it.
And you know, in my book thethird story is a similar
situation and I had met thisindividual and the first time I
met him he left me with thisfeeling of something's not right
.
Right, but I dismissed itbecause in my head I was like,
oh, you know, he's probably areally nice guy and I don't want
(17:31):
to be mean and all of theseother things.
And I should not have done that, because then that just led to
another situation later onduring that conference.
But don't dismiss it.
And there's nothing wrong tosay to somebody you know, you're
making me uncomfortable, right,there's nothing wrong with that
.
And for me in that position Ididn't have that confidence.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You had an instinct but next time you'll be fine,
right.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Absolutely, and because of it I live in a
different world where I knowthings can happen.
But even in that situation andknowing things can happen, I
still dismissed it.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I have been doing sketches for four years.
Of course, before the sketchesand everything, I got nearly
strangled to death, horrible,really near death experience.
So I've been doing sketches forfour years and I told girls
that were attacked especially,you'll know.
I told them the parking lot,the expression in the parking
lot, okay.
So after I had my baby, who was11 months old, I'm shopping and
(18:33):
I saw a guy's expression and Ihad four seconds to get ready
and I was right.
He walked up and I was readyemotionally.
He put a knife in my face andthen he put it down on my
stomach.
He says get in the car andeverything will be okay.
11 years before I met him, Iknew do not get in a vehicle or
(18:55):
a house or any area.
He says get in the car andeverything would be all right.
So I had ankle strap, highheels, it didn't matter.
I twisted my arm.
He had to hold my wrist.
I twisted away and I ran and hegoes don't run or I'll shoot
you.
So I kept running and I ran azigzag and high ankle strap,
(19:16):
high heels, try that.
I got 30 people together and Isaid he's out there.
He threatened me with a knifeand some woman said well, you're
not cut, okay.
Anyway, 30 people surroundedhim.
He went to court.
He got convicted.
They found the knife.
He threw it in a ditch, etcetera.
Be ready, think it could happento you.
(19:37):
That makes you safer.
And you better tell your babykids I'm sorry, kids, here's my
tip Tell your babies.
No adult should have to ask youfor help.
No adult this is me, mom, papaor me no adult should ask you
for help finding puppies oranything.
If an adult asks you for help,that means run away, scream.
(19:59):
Feel free to scream.
What should you scream?
I've told people this is adultsand children for years.
Finally, I had one reallyintelligent Asian woman do it
and she knew what to do.
If you are in trouble, do notjust scream.
Scream fire, fire.
Every single person will jumpimmediately because they think
(20:22):
they could get burned.
Firework goes, scream fire.
A girl did that and she got 20or 30 people.
Don't do it if you're faking it, kids.
No, no, no, no, no.
You scream fire.
Everybody will jump and atleast look at you to see if
you're burning and they want totake a video, right, but anyway.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Sadly, that is true.
I never thought of that.
We always talk about screaming,but wow, Even me.
As soon as you said fire, Icame to a different alert level.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
It's a quickie.
That means even people thatmove slow.
They're going to go quick and,I'm serious, they're going to at
least open the door and look.
Please memorize that everybody,if you really need help, you're
going to get it.
Also, I need to bring this upbecause I've worked so many
crimes.
Yes, I've had four people.
They had to run out nakedbecause they were being either
(21:15):
arm dropped or raped or whatever.
You will get help if you runout naked.
You will.
I'm sorry about yourembarrassment.
How about those extra pounds?
Never mind To save your ownlife, please.
Running naked works as anothersafety tip.
I don't care if you think yourneighbors are tacky, or I don't
(21:37):
care.
Whatever it is.
As a matter of safety, go overand knock on the door and go.
You know, as a matter of safety, aunt Lois says I need to meet
you.
This is what I look like.
I see you, I'm over there.
You need help.
Run to my door and I'll helpyou.
You should know what theneighbors look like.
You don't have to be friends,you just like that's what they
(21:58):
look like and meet them andunderstand at the very least.
When it's really bad if it'slife or death or armed robbery
or whatever, you can run to them.
If somebody comes in the frontI worked over 100 home invasion
If you hear people coming in thefront and you'll know if it's a
breaking.
Now I don't know if you'regoing to have enough snap to do
this.
If they're coming in one way,go out the other way.
(22:21):
Open the door, open a window,take your cell phone hopefully
naked, remember that's okay, butget out.
If they're going to come robyour house and you leave it,
that means they have to stoprobbing your house because they
know you could be calling 911.
And if they do rob, nothing inyour home is worth you being
killed.
So get out the other way.
Any feelings you have aboutgold, jewels or anything in your
(22:46):
house appliances, vehicles youcare more about your life Go out
the other way and let them haveit.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Very true.
Do you teach classes on this,like it's very?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
good?
Well, because I've talked toover 5,000 people and they said
this happened, that happened andthis happened.
I can't forget them.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Now I have a question .
You've been doing this for somany years and, like you've said
a few times now, just thehomicide, the things that you've
seen, the things that you'veheard.
How are you taking care ofyourself, your well-being, your
mental health, because that's alot of continual conversation
and being involved in thosetypes of things?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Good, question the Holy Ghost.
Were you to be like a Christianand you understand that that's
going to comfort you.
And I get special comfort whenI get a very bad call.
I get extra comfort and youfeel like a welling up in your
chest, like when you see yourchild do something makes you
proud, or when you fall in loveyou feel it in your chest.
(23:50):
I got a call.
A 9-year-old girl sees hermother, her hogtide, strangled
to death, raped, and then herapes the little girl.
It's 3.30 in the morning andthe chief says come on down.
And I felt the welling up in mychest.
I'm given special comfort byHeavenly Father.
And then, of course, in the endwhen they catch the person,
(24:13):
they caught the person from that9-year-old.
I went and she was 9 years old.
I did a sketch and they justtook the sketch to the next
apartment complex down and thesecurity guard pointed to a door
and they knock on the door andthe guy says no, he looks like
the sketch.
No, I was here all night.
My girlfriend will tell you.
Behind him is stacked all kindof stuff stolen from the murder
(24:34):
scene.
So I handle this becauseHeavenly Father made me to do
this and then I fell in lovewith somebody after I did
thousands of portraits and movedto Houston and then I was drawn
to the police department and,given the strength to fight, the
Houston police departmentFought me.
They said we don't need you,you need forensic artists.
(24:54):
I'm positive, Go to Lois Gibson.
I have a YouTube telling youhow to get practices.
If you do those practices, ifyou can draw real good and you
think you got the inner strength, the inner toughness to stand
this work, if you think you cando it, see that YouTube video.
And if you go and say, hey, I'mgoing to draw somebody in front
of you, with you havingsomebody from your personnel be
(25:17):
a witness, I promise you'll beable to do it.
Convince them that they shouldat least try you on a freelance
basis.
If they tag $5,000 in City Hall, you charge 500 a case.
In 10 cases, I promise you, ina smaller city, you at the very
least will solve three cases.
An artist, become a forensicartist.
(25:39):
You want to draw and get themost fulfilling job, the most
difficult job.
If you think you have it andit's just a simple drawing.
Most people use graphite pencil.
I use pastels on gray paper.
It's a monochromatic Understand, it's not full color.
So you go quick and you got tobe able to erase it and change
it when the witness says and yougot to have a witness tell you
(26:01):
what to do and do exactly whatthey say submit to their will.
You can solve crimes.
45 states have no forensicartist.
Call me, I want you out there.
If you can draw anywhere, Iwill help you.
Find me lowest Gibsoncom andemail me.
(26:21):
I'll give you the hints.
By my book forensic artessentials, I wrote faces of
evil and it's about my bestcases that I helped solve.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, you're very confident in your approach when
it comes to law enforcement.
I know, like in ourconversation as well, you're
like we need them, even thoughyou have this frustration in
this mission over here, becauseyou know that they're needed.
Tell me, from your perspectiveand your experience, why we need
our law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Hey, jen Lee, thank you to bring me back because I
got my one bone to pick withthem.
I want to tell the public.
If you think that you shouldnot like law enforcement, you
just don't know one of them, oryou met one you didn't like
because you were speeding.
They have to be so strong.
In one year that I read about,there was over 6 million
(27:11):
interactions with lawenforcement and public.
It could have been a ticket orwhatever arrest, whatever.
Look, 99.9% of the time whenyou're with an officer, all you
have to do is follow theirorders, because that's actually
what you have to do and you'refine.
You are fine.
I've seen homicide detectiveswork murder cases.
(27:33):
I've seen them cry.
I saw a detective with a casewhere a blind woman, six and a
half months pregnant, was rapedand we saw that.
We saw that case.
But they care so much.
They are family people.
And this thing with hating yourpolice and defunding the biggest
(27:54):
mistake in the world.
And if you think you want tohate police, they've had police
since Roman times and sincebefore 4000 BC, 6000 years and
before.
We've always had to have police.
If you want to hate and destroyyour police, you want your
(28:14):
civilization to die and in areaswhere they have hated their
police more, we see that theircivilization is dying more than
places where they love theirpolice.
But they're deeply spiritual.
Or they could not handleworking crime and they couldn't
(28:34):
handle helping you with yourproblems.
They are superior in personaltoughness and in spirituality,
or they would all commit suicidewhen they weren't murders and
you could see the woman's handsup with cuts across where she
tried to fight the knife offbefore it hit her chest 20 times
.
No, they are spiritual and theycare.
Don't ruin your own city andyour own area and your own life
(28:58):
by hating cops.
Cops are you.
Love them, love yourself, loveyour city.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Thank you for sharing that.
And it's also true and, in allhonesty, our first responders,
even outside of law enforcement,you know their mental health is
such a topic of urgency andimportance because they do just
like you.
They see things we can'tpossibly imagine, and they see
(29:24):
it over and over and, over andover again.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Jim, we need the police.
Just trust me If you don'tunderstand, we need the police.
If you read a book aboutMarxism and you want us to be
Venezuela or whatever, or andyou are part of that is, you
have to destroy the police.
How about we'd be Americans andlove each other?
You can show you love yourcommunity and yourself by being
(29:48):
loving toward your officers.
And who doesn't lovefirefighters?
No, no, no, no.
Cute, cute, cute, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Has your laughter been part of your coping
mechanism of dealing with the?
Because you're funny like.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Officially I am.
I am the funniest person ifyou've almost been killed.
I covered in my book the HolyGrail of a Great Interview is to
get the witness to laugh.
I have witnesses obviously havebeen through the worst thing in
their life and a whole bunch ofthem have said because I do
know how to make people laughthey have said these witnesses
Wow, that's the first time I'velaughed.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Did Houston PD get another forensic artist once you
retired?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yes, I worked real hard and with great spirit.
I have four artists installedat HPD and they all took my
class and I love them and I helpthem, you know, give them hands
, stuff.
So you mentor, I mentor.
Yes, I've mentored people allover the world.
(30:53):
I started somebody's career inIsrael, romania, portugal,
brazil.
There is no forensic artist inthe entire continent of Europe
except for in Germany, britain.
No forensic artist.
No, they'll try to say, oh, wedo this, we do that, I don't
(31:14):
call it.
If you get a computer, that'snot it.
That's not it.
You have to have a human being.
Listen, computers don't work.
By the way, somebody out theretheir brain's going ask her, if
computers work, that computersdon't work.
Okay, so do it by hand artists.
If you can draw by hand, youcan do this.
You just need the SamanthaSteinberg catalog and you can do
(31:37):
it.
From a witness memory, I'mpositive.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah, and I'll put these links in the show notes so
people can easily find them.
So, aside from mentoring, whatdo you do in your spare time now
?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Well, now I'm doing the most exciting thing in my
life.
I'm so happy about it.
I'm doing paintings of the menwho died at the Alamo in the
Battle of the Alamo in 1836.
And there are no photographs ofthem, but I have taken
descendants photos andextrapolated the main features
(32:14):
and this does work successfully.
And feeding into that is myforensic art.
Being able to do that isbecause I was able to
successfully faciallyreconstruct skulls.
With only a skull I'vesuccessfully done faces, so I
have a deep understanding of theface.
And then I do age progressions.
(32:35):
So I do age progression andfacial reconstruction on skulls.
Rather, and because of that I'mtaking the descendants.
I've done four.
All my easel right now isWilliam P King.
They think he was 15 and maybedied the day he turned 16.
His uncle was there at thehouse and Colonel Travis came by
(32:59):
to pick up the uncle to fightin the Battle of the Alamo and
he volunteered to replace hisuncle, william P King, and he
died at the Alamo in 1836.
So they're hanging in themuseum behind the Alamo which I
need to bring up as aircondition.
If you're in San Antonio, yougo to the Alamo and then you go
behind it, the air conditionbuilding and you can see my
(33:22):
portraits.
They have lowest Gibson at thebottom.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
That's awesome.
That is like so purposeful too,especially for their living
relatives.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yes, the relatives.
It brings them to tears.
That's what I want.
I'm a Pisces.
I like emotion, but that meansit looks like them.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I don't even have to ask you what makes you happy
because, like you said, thatemotion bringing closure for
people, because when you catchthat criminal, that is part of
their whole closing process, ofcourse, and then they want
justice throughout the courtsystem as well.
So impactful.
I think there are thingsforensic artists, the impacts
they can have that they don'trealize.
It's not just sketching.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I know, but how sad.
I can't even allow myself tothink about Chicago and all the
crime they have.
And they have zero forensicartists to use.
Get a forensic artist.
I trained two and they used touse them, but they wouldn't use
them on cases, they made them doother things.
Law enforcement believe in aforensic artist.
(34:29):
If you have an artist and theyhave a catalog the Steinberg
catalog you have someone thatsaw a face.
Put them in a room with thatartist and in about an hour
you're going to get an image ofthe person for whom you search.
Use forensic artists, vet themand let them get with your
(34:51):
witnesses.
First of all, it makes thewitness feel terrific.
It makes them feel better.
It's another advocate.
Yeah, it's a vessel that thewitness gets to go.
Look, this is what they looklike.
Look, it's a beautiful unionbetween the witness and the
detective.
Before I die, I want to makethis happen.
(35:12):
People, we need forensicartists.
Contact me.
If you can draw, I will guideyou.
It won't be hard, it is notcomplicated, it's simple and you
can catch criminals.
Witness memory sketches thatcan help solve the case.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I'm positive In closing.
I was going to ask so what doesit take to be a forensic artist
?
But let me tell you what Iheard.
It's quite fascinating.
Empathy, like being able to getinto, knowing how they feel and
because of what you've beenthrough, you get it.
Making them laugh is soimportant to build that trust
(35:54):
and kind of like you said, someof them may not have laughed in
a long time and there is a levelof assertiveness.
We know your value, lois.
Right, but to prove anotherforensic artist's value to a
police department is kind oflike the challenge that you're
(36:15):
facing and your mission is tobreak down that barrier.
How is that going for?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
you.
Well, I've only started becauseI was so busy actually doing
the job.
I just don't know.
But God has guided me and Ijust honestly this is when you
know I'm throwing my hands up alittle bit I'm praying to God
that He'll help me somehow.
I may not accomplish this, but,heavenly Father, I pray.
(36:44):
Please open up minds to justone artist per jurisdiction.
There's artists that can drawso well and those sketches are
just one face fits, just a quicksketch.
I'll give you the courage.
I haven't even made it.
Do that for you and I want to.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
This is maybe a naive .
Do they teach that in collegeor anything?
Are there courses where you canlearn that?
Speaker 2 (37:13):
No, they do not teach forensic art.
Here's what's taking collegeAll kind of life drawing, just
drawing human beings, that's all.
Just draw human beings.
And the best forensic artistdidn't even go to college at all
.
Be a sympathetic person, drawpeople really well and really
quickly.
The best way to train yourselfis to be a sidewalk artist, like
in New Orleans or go to anyplace where there's foot traffic
(37:36):
.
And then you have to get a show.
Go, hey, let me just draw youfor practice, for $3, for the
paper or free, it doesn't matter.
Sit them down and everybodywill stare when you start
drawing.
And they go how much?
And the shill's paying nothing.
But you go yeah, that'll be $80, $90, $50, whatever you want to
say.
So if you draw people, livelike that for money, it will
(37:58):
force you to be fabulous.
Somebody in New Orleans that didportraits like me.
He pulled me aside and hebought me a beignet and a tea
and he said this gives you theability to love people.
It's a giving profession.
Do portraits, people.
It's also the most painful.
Come on, a lot of artists don'twant to do portraits.
Go ahead and jump in there,people and do portraits.
(38:19):
Have the courage to do it.
But there's people out there,they already got the talent.
This work is pure passion anddrawing.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Is there anything you want to add before I do my
closing?
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I'm not kidding.
I'm going to try to live aslong as I can, and my goal
before I die is to get forensicartists in all 45 states that do
not even have one in the entirestate.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Go ahead and give your contact information right
now.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
LoisGibsoncom.
L-o-i-s.
Superman's girlfriend, loisL-O-I-S Gibson.
Common spelling G-I-V-S-O-Ncom,or you can just Google me.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Awesome, and your books are on Amazon, so we'll
include the link for that, Iguess.
Then go to your website then toget your email to contact you.
That'll be fine.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
GhibLoiscomcastnet.
Ghibloiscomcastnet.
Ghibloiscomcastnet.
Yeah, email me.
How do I be a forensic artist?
I don't care where you are.
Alaska doesn't have one people.
Okay, we got artists in Alaska.
Call me.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Awesome, Lois.
Thank you so much for being myguest today on the I Need Blue
podcast.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Oh, Jen, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
You're so welcome.
Absolutely.
This is Jen Lee with the I NeedBlue podcast.
To find all of my episodes andeverything you ever needed to
learn about I Need Blue, you cango to my website,
wwwineedbluenet, and rememberyou are stronger than you think.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
I Need Blue.
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