Daniel Regan - To Hell & Back With Purpose - I Took a Hike

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, daniel Regan, are you okay with being
recorded on a podcast?
Absolutely, there goes thatliability.
This is I Took a Hike.
I'm your host.
Darren Mass, founder ofBusiness Therapy Group and
part-time wilderness philosopher.
Here we step out of theboardrooms and home offices and
into the great outdoors wherethe hustle of entrepreneurship
meets the rustle of nature.

(00:21):
In this season-ending episode,we hike the trail alongside
Daniel Regan's harrowing journeyfrom literally the bottom of
the rock all the way to the topof recovery to form new
beginnings as the founder ofHealing Us Centers.
Our topics delve into some ofthe most profoundly impactful
conversations that I have everencountered.

(00:42):
That I have ever encountered.
We explore the harrowingjourney of a hard drug user,
from the early entanglement ofmewling for the cartels,
enduring multiple arrests, andthe unwavering determination of
a mother who refused to let herchild succumb to the darkness.
This is an inspiring tale ofresilience, as Daniel shares his

(01:03):
life's hardship towardsrecovery and discovers a
newfound will to survive, livinga positive and purposeful
mission.
There are moments that areprofoundly challenging to absorb
, serving as a wake-up call formany to confront the raw truth
of pain, anguish and despair,intertwined with the harsh

(01:23):
realities that plague society.
Experience this transformativeand inspirational journey when I
took a hike with Daniel Regan.
This episode is proudly broughtto you by Brand Built, a dynamic

(01:47):
social media networkingcommunity designed to elevate
your success, feeling stuck in abrand loop.
Your brand matters more thanever before and falling behind
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Join our dynamic community forexpert social media guidance,
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(02:08):
Explore more at mybrandbuiltcomand join me in the chat fora.
Thriving journey to success.
All right, daniel, if anyone'sdone a background research on
you, you have had somechallenges and I want to hear
about those challenges.
The way that I got connectedwith you is through your sister.

(02:28):
Yes, she took an opportunity.
Maybe she saw me on a post onLinkedIn, since I do a lot of
that, mm-hmm.
And she reached out to me andsaid my brother has an awesome
story and he's very successfuland he's been through F and hell
and back.
And then you applied and youshared some of your videos and

(02:50):
content that you've had and Iremember seeing one of those
bits.
You were on a Chris Hansenspecial.
Yes, now I'm going to pause,not to catch the predator.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
There we go.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
You were on a different one, yes, but yeah,
it's not to catch a predator, go.
You were on a different one,yes, but yeah, it's not to catch
a predator.
But you were on a specialcalled crime watch and I
remember it was friday night orwhatever, and I was watching
those shows at that time in mylife and I remembered the exact
episode.
I don't know how many I musthave watched, but when I clicked
on that link I was like holyshit, I saw this episode.

(03:23):
So why don't you start off bytelling us what was hell?

Speaker 2 (03:28):
like hell is hell?
Not so much for the physicalthings that come with it all
those, those are terrible.
But what the mental anguishthat you go through as an
individual, that you're livingand existing at the bottom of
society really and just thebottom of self.

(03:49):
You don't know who you areanymore.
You start to adopt a feelingthat that's all you can be and
there's no fixing you.
There's no other avenue insight, there's no other
opportunity for you, and thescariest part of being there was
that I was accepting that and Ididn't think there was any
other route for me.

(04:10):
And that acceptance of thatfate led me to some really dark
places in my mind and in life,and I didn't know if I.
I didn't think I'd ever get outand I was on the pathway to end
it as quick as I could.
Wow.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
And just so we can draw attention to it.
What was the hell reason?
Why did you get there?
What were you doing?

Speaker 2 (04:35):
I think everything stems.
You know, it's a snowballeffect For someone to get there,
it's just not one day and thenthe next right.
There's a perspective that'sgrown over time and we feel a
lot of the times.
I always say your gifts can becurses in a lot of ways.
I've always been a veryempathetic person, always cared

(04:57):
about the world, always wantedto make an impact, always felt
the the hurt in the world.
So I I always dealt with that.
I mean, I saw, saw one of thosecommercials on TV where you get
, you know, 99 cents a day youcould save a child and wherever.
Oh, you're that guy you fell forthat no, no, I mean, but I saw
that as a four-year-old kid andI started saving my food every

(05:20):
dinner and, you know, stick itunder my bed.
My mom will tell you stories ofthese kind of things all the
time.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
So your character is good, but I just wanted to
clarify your hell was a majorsubstance abuse and I'm not
talking about a middle.
I'm not talking about smoking ajoint outside of school.
I'm not talking about just aparty drug with your friends at
a club.
You were in a literal hell hole.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
Of course.
Yes, what I'm getting to isbasically that feeling of
uncertainty.
All the time it was reaffirmedin my life in multiple different
facets, because when you'refocused on the negative, what
happens is you find it rightAnything that I'm attracting
into my life and setting anattention for that's what ends
up being attracted.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
Well, the same goes for positive too.
If you have a positive mindset,you find it.
If you have a negative mindsetor surround yourself with
negative people or junkies, youwill be a culmination of those
people or that situation.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Right, so you know, that mindset was very.
It was reaffirmed in multipledifferent facets.
My mom got cancer when I wasyounger and stuff like that.
I had a hard time with change.
I didn't know how to adapt tolife's changes.
I wanted to control and keepthings comfy and in doing so I
kind of would always find myselfin a state of chaos, because

(06:36):
life is always changing.
Nothing is permanent, right.
So I was dealing with this and,unfortunately, before I learned
how to regulate that or copewith it, I found substances and
it seemed to cure that fear,that anxiety.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
It seemed to help me cope thoughts in the mind right
so what was the first substanceyou tried?

Speaker 2 (06:59):
marijuana.
It was the first one.
Who didn't?
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (07:02):
now it's legal yeah it's typically the first.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Right now it's legal and not even cool.
Yeah, typically alcohol is thefirst, but I actually I could
care less about alcohol.
I never have really cared forit, but we'd got into that and
it just seemed to cure all myissues.
All of a sudden I was makingfriends, because it was easy to

(07:24):
make friends that are doing thewrong thing.
It's easy to get into thosecircles.
You just have to do the wrongthing with them, right?
And uh, it just kind of took ona life of itself, because I
became the kid that was daringand would try different things.
And you know, I came intomiddle school with a cool story
of the weekend, of what I didand got up to.

(07:46):
So peer pressure was just.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
It was more.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
There was peer pressure, but no one actually
was making me do it.
It was what I was getting fromdoing those things right.
So the validation of others,like wanting to know what my
weekend was like, what I got upto.
And, of course, as get older,other people are trying weed now
, so you got to up the ante.
Right, you have to up the ante,yes, and I was.

(08:11):
I grew up.
My parents are great parents,so they struck me with the fear
of God with drugs.
You know you smoke weed, you'regoing to fall down and die,
kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
This is your brain on drugs.
Yeah, exactly, dad, I learnedthis is your brain on drugs.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, exactly, dad, I learned it from you and all
those 80s stupid commercialsthat we laughed exactly.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
No one bought that shit, but I could.
I give out, your mom is clearly.
I've seen the interviews yourmom is clearly a good mom.
You didn't grow up in aneglected home.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
You were just that kid that fell prey to influence
yeah, and you know, once you tryweed and you didn't fall down
and die and you had a great timeand you were laughing and
giggling and all that stuff,you're like, ah, I guess they
lied to me about everything, ohshit.
So that's where it kind of tookeffect.
And you know I have familymembers that also were into

(09:01):
drugs and substances so it waseasy to get introduced to them.
You know, everybody thinks it'slike a drug dealer lurking in
the corner of an alley.
It's never.
It's someone that you trust andlove.
That's probably going to showyou the way with this, whether
it's a friend, a family member,whatever it may be.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, I think you know I've been in these
situations as well.
It's someone you look up to.
They're getting high and like,hey, you want to try, but they
don't realize what they're doingbecause they have already
self-justified their ownmedication, correct?

Speaker 2 (09:32):
so it's like hey, you want to be at the level I'm at
right, try this, it'll be cool.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, but uh so how old were you when you, when you
smoked your first?
What joint bowl first.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, it was a bowl, but uh, that was 12.
That was my first one.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
That's about typical.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
I look back at pictures of myself at 12, and
I'm like, oh my God, I was ababy and in my head I thought I
was grown.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
you know Well of course you were always older in
your mind when you were younger,but when you get older you are
younger in your mind.
Of course that works out.
It's funny how that works out.
All right, so you go on fromthere.
What's the next drug?

Speaker 2 (10:09):
So cocaine was next.
Okay, what age?
I love cocaine.
Yeah, I loved it.
Gave me a sense of control overmy life, felt like I could do
anything, so you fell with.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
Superman, Exactly Now .
Were you doing cocaine atparties, or was it?
You know I need a quick bumpbefore school.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
No, at this time it was parties, it was recreational
.
Next came psychedelics.
I've always been a hippie atheart, so you know got into
psilocybin, lsd, things likethat.
Okay, a lot of my friends in myfriend group now are entrenched
in drug culture, so we'redealing drugs, we're kind of

(10:56):
being the people that introduceothers, okay.
Um, and we had a close knit offriends.
We all went across togetherdirt bike stuff like that, okay.
So we go into the woods andparty, okay.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
And that was college for me.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, and many others .
By the time we were leavinghigh school, oxycontin started.
That became really big.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
So you were getting pills of Oxy?
Were you just ingesting thepills or grinding them and
snorting them?

Speaker 2 (11:26):
I didn't mess with them at first.
To be honest with you, I hateddowners.
I loved loved uppers.
Love speed, love doing hippie,flipping things okay, like
ecstasy mushrooms.
And then we uh, I broke my backdirt biking.
I ended up up crushing my L3,l4, l5.
Oh wow.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
I think I know where this is going now.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, okay, so my friend, what age?
Was this.
This was right before I lefthigh school.
Okay, so this was 17, 18.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
Very impressionable kid at that point Correct, very
susceptible to not understandingright and wrong and addiction.
Exactly Got it.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
So this isn't a forewarning for all parents.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
What you're about to hear is reality.
It's what happens, and a lot ofour opioid crisis comes from
wisdom teeth.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yes, it does, and sports injuries.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
And sports injuries.
So, yeah, this is a goodmessage to hear.
So you get prescribed opioidsyes, oxy, oxy 30s.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yep, okay, which is strong?
So my, my friend, nickunfortunately nick's not here
anymore.
Okay, he passed away, but he,uh, he, he knew how to sell
these things.
That's what he was doing.
He was also learning how todoctor shop.
So what he was doing is gettingfive to seven different doctors

(12:53):
to prescribe him pills.
So he was getting anywherebetween 400 to 830 milligram
Roxy's a week.
Wow.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
And sold them for 15.
And the doctors?

Speaker 4 (13:06):
didn't know yet what they were doing.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
They knew no, but they didn't know what was going
to happen.
Obviously.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
They all knew Really.
Yeah, everything was under thetable.
Ah, cash, oh, understood.
I mean, he was brilliant at it.
He would get homeless people inNewark, okay, and he would have
a line of them.
Everybody was getting thesepills.
He'd hook them up with a couple.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
And the doctors knew what was going on.
Yeah, oh, wow.
I mean, they pretended not toknow.
I hope they all lose theirlicense.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
They did certain things to kind of cover their
tracks, but everybody knew theseweren't good doctors or home
wall kind of places, crookeddoctors, okay.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
so so you get these pills yeah, so he he goes score.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
You know, my friend has a legitimate injury.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
I'll teach him how to doctor shop, but you already
were getting a prescription foroxy, yeah, but I hated it.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
okay, I really didn't like taking downers, but when I
started doctor shopping, youknow I had thousands of these
things.
I'm making money.
How much?
Now I'm in college.
How much money are you making?
We were making probably closeto $10,000 a month.
Wow.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Did you realize?

Speaker 2 (14:19):
it was wrong.
Yes, but I had this kind ofrebel mentality.
Okay, that we, uh, you know youjustify it and rationalize the
most rational stuff well.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
so I often say this on the show human beings were
born with two things thatseparate us from the animal
kingdom one posable thumbs it'sgreat for tools and two, the
ability to rationalizeeverything.
If you're making a lot of money, you could rationalize it.
You can give yourself a reasonor an excuse.
You could steal the loaf ofbread if you're hungry

(14:56):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Okay, so it's amazing how we can do this and that's
the it's survival, yeah, andit's the abuse of the prefrontal
cortex.
Right there you go.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Science not, uh, yeah , all right so you are now
dealing, you're bringing in asubstantial amount of money.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yes, for 18 uh, yep, 18, going on 19 and uh, at this
point, like I'm in college.
So now I'm doing, I'm doingcocaine and ecstasy is like
every day.
You know, now, because I don'thave my parents, I'm really good
at living two different lives.
So I was a straight a student,okay, captain of the swim team

(15:40):
through high school, oh, wow,tsa student for engineering.
I got a full-ride scholarshipto FTU.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
So your parents had no knowledge.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
I mean, there's little signs, but there's so
much evidence, I'm doing itright then.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
Because why correct something if everything else is
working right?
Correct.
So they're thinking maybeyou're partying every once in a
while, but they don't realizehow bad the habit is yeah, they
think I'm smoking weed everyonce in a while.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
But yet you're still getting straight A's, and
chances are you know yourparents grew up in the 60s and
all right, that didn't killanyone, whatever, okay, and so
now I'm in college, I don't havetheir oversight, I don't have
to pretend to be anybody else,so it's just, you know, balsa to
the wall in that direction.
So I got addicted to partyingand having ecstasy and cocaine

(16:30):
all the time.
That stuff is very expensive.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
And you're dealing to everyone around, correct.
So you're the fun guy thateveryone comes to.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yep exactly.
So I take on that personalityof being that guy and eventually
one time you know all mydealers for Coke and everything
else they run out.
They don't have anything.
This is when opiates reallystarted becoming so popular that
that's what they were sellingheroin or pills.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
Okay, before we go into, that?

Speaker 2 (17:04):
how many pills a day were you doing Once I started
using at this point because theyran out of coke and everything
else I started with about aquarter of an oxy and in two
months I was doing 14 a day.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
14 a day, Wow.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
So at that point I'm totally lost.
I'm gone, I can't go to classes, I'm avoiding my house, I'm not
calling home.
My whole life just downhillreal quick and it gets real ugly
real quick, doing things that,putting myself in really

(17:43):
dangerous situations, going intoPatterson and, you know,
getting drugs from gangs, makingalliances with them.
You're making alliances withgang members.
We had to because it was a costthing.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
What does that look like?

Speaker 2 (17:59):
Well, they like you.
You know I'm the white boy thatcan get through things a little
bit easier.
If I get pulled over, I'musually let go.
So typically you become a mulefor the gangs and then I get
cheaper product.
So that's what's happening,because now I'm using my own
supply.

(18:20):
So, uh, you know that took overthen my I remember my college
roommate that you know I wasinvolved with.
You know that took over.
Then I remember my collegeroommate that you know I was
involved, you know, doing allthis stuff with.
He brought heroin one day whenwe made one of these runs to
Patterson and I remember goingto him and being like what is
wrong with you?
Like why would you bring thatin here?
We don't do heroin, we'reclassy, you know drug addicts,

(18:43):
he's like it's the same thing.
I'm like, no, it's not, it'sheroin, it's different.
And he's like, no, just trysome.
It's the exact same thing.
And I was hurting.
We didn't have anything yet soI tried it.
I'm like, oh, my God, it's thesame thing.

(19:04):
Injected, no, snorting.
We were only snorting at thistime and uh, only snorting.
But uh, he, uh.
I was like how much was that?
He goes, it's five dollars.
So it's cheap so that fivedollars is about equal to sixty
dollars worth of pills.
So I was like it's cheap game,it's easy and it's cleaner,
correct?
So we were selling pills andbuying heroin that's what it

(19:26):
turned into which was veryeconomical for us at the time.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
You were using that smart calculated brain Right Not
for the Purpose of good, butyeah, I ended up.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
I came home for summer break and I got pulled
over in my car and I hadeverything in my car because we
just moved out of our dorm roomand I was found with 200
Oxycontin and a list of peoplewho owe me money and about like
$15,000 in cash.
You're guilty and they knewwhat I was doing.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
You're guilty yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
There's no question.
Luckily I had someprescriptions over in my name,
so you know.
I told them I was a bus boy andit was my tip money that I've
been saving.
They weren't buying it.
No, I was stupid.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
They have to arrest you, no matter what.
It's up to the DA.
I was arrested.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, my parents are waiting for me at home for
dinner.
They have no idea I've beenarrested.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
And they have no idea what you're doing.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
No, and I talked them out of it and said look, I know
what you think this is.
I'm not going to say whether Iam or not doing these things.
I am taking these pills.
I am getting more than what Ishould be getting.
I'm like I'll introduce you tothe doctor so you can take care
of the problem as long as I cango right now and they allowed

(20:41):
that to happen no jail, no jail.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Hey listener, Thanks for hiking along with us.
Discover more episodes atitookahikecom, or to recommend
an adventurous guest, apply tobe a sponsor or to simply drop
us a line.
All right, let's continue onthis trail.
So what year was?

Speaker 2 (20:57):
this, so this was the line.
All right, let's continue onthis trail.
So what year was this?
So this was.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
You got arrested, just to be clear, right.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, I got arrested.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
The officer has no choice.
They have to uphold the lawCorrect.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
Okay and I was charged.
They didn't charge me fordealing, even though they had
more than enough evidence.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
They didn't charge you for dealing Okay.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
No, they just charged me for the pills that were not
in the prescription.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Okay, so I'm going to ask this polarizing question Do
you believe that you were notcharged for dealing because of
the color of your skin?

Speaker 2 (21:27):
I believe I wouldn't be able to.
This situation wouldn't happenunless I was who I was.
I was, you know.
I got a, got pulled over infreehold.
I'm from Freehold, I'm white.
I wouldn't, probably have thatopportunity yeah.
Do you believe that was fair.
I mean, at the time I thoughtit was fair because I wanted to

(21:51):
get away with it.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, and no, I'm not trying to set you up for
anything.
This is just the unfortunatereality of the polarization of
society.
Yeah, Do you believe at thattime that was fair, or should
you have been arrested andsentenced to something?

Speaker 2 (22:08):
I 100.
Let me, this is like.
There's many different layersto this.
I think anybody who is addictedto drugs shouldn't be punished
because they're addicted todrugs.
I fully agree with that.
I believe that they should havean opportunity to get well.
I fully agree with that.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
Over that Dealing, though, is a different story.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Dealing is a different story, but I do agree
there's levels of dealing.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Peer pressure, especially in the young minds of
teenage children, can causeyour life to take a different
path and you don't know how orwhen to say no, and sometimes
it's that one pill that gets youCorrect.
So I do agree, especially ifyou are under a certain age,
that you should be given theopportunity to not go to jail

(22:54):
but get help Correct when you'redealing that's a different
story.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yes, I agree, and you need to.
There needs to be consequencesto actions right, equal and
opposite, and I totally, 100%deserved a chance to get myself
well, because really the onlyreason I'm dealing is to support
my drug habit.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
It goes hand in hand sometimes, right, and how much
was this habit?

Speaker 2 (23:18):
dollar.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
Wise is to support my drug habit.
It goes hand in hand sometimes,right.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
How much was this habit?
Dollar wise, I was using about$400 a day.
That's a lot of money.
Yeah, it's hard to do Every day, seven days a week yes, no
breaks, no breaks.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Were you high all day , all night.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yes, but you get your tolerance builds up so you're
able to function and youregulate it in a way.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
I have friends where they smoke pot all day, all
night.
I don't know how they do that,but to them that's normal.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, well, with THC, you have THC receptors in your
brain, so basically they getclogged up after a while and you
don't feel high anymore, got it.
So that's why they take a breakevery once in a while.
Yep, okay, got to knock it off,yep, and then All right.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
So $400 a day, habit, yep, you get arrested.
Handcuffs that had to be scary,it was.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
I'm scared to death County.
No, when I tell you I was inand out in three hours.
I was in and out in three hours, all right you got a lucky
break.
Yeah, back to the street.
Now I had a clean record.
So, not anymore, not anymore,okay, but I actually still have
a clean record to this day.
Okay, because they set me upwith, you know, their special

(24:29):
detectives.
I had to go into these doctors,wear a wire and do deals with
these doctors.
Okay, everything was recorded,and so you were an informant
Became a snitch.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, okay, so we all know rat snitches and all that.
Of course, that's the moviestuff.
Yeah, real life.
You became part of the solution, so you are now back on the
streets.
Did you learn your lesson atall?
As you were an informant, youwere sober or what happened?

Speaker 2 (25:03):
Not at all.
All right, so you're aninformant and you're still
getting high.
I'm trying to live this doublelife right, but now I'm home
from college, I'm with myparents again.
They're starting to notice somestuff up with me, they're aware
, correct, they have no idea.
I've been arrested, some stuffup with me.
They're aware, correct, theyhave no idea.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
I've been arrested your night, no idea that I'm
being an informant.
Wait, wait, wait.
They had no idea that you werearrested.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
Nope, no idea, I was 19.
I was in.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
I told you I was in and out in three hours.
They're waiting for me fordinner at the house while I'm
being arrested.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
That night it was so surreal, but that addictive ego
just tells you you're just sogood, you just feel like you got
away with it and your parentshad no idea.
No idea, I sat back down atdinner.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
They're like where were you?

Speaker 2 (25:50):
Probably got held up with traffic.
I totally got pulled over forspeeding ticket or something.
It was just normal for me.
I had a super WRXX, so I wasalways speeding Okay understood.
Loud, farty, exhaust.
Yep, gotcha, you're that guy,I'm that guy.
Okay, thanks, still that guy.
All good, all good, but theyhad no idea.

(26:10):
I mean my mom.
After it all came out, she juststarts second guessing her
motherhood, you know which is?

Speaker 1 (26:18):
not her fault.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
No, not at all.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
You're an upper class human being in an upper class
town, Nice, educated parentsright, Mm-hmm the classic cliche
.
How could this happen to my boy?
We were always there for them.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, I mean, my family was like the Brady Bunch.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
But that's the crazy part, is it happens?
Oh, it knows no bounds it knowsno bounds.
Good people, bad people, itdoesn't matter, anyone can have
that situation, in your case, aback problem.
Mm-hmm, you were probably goingto go there, by the way,
chances are.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, I was well on my way even without that.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
That expedited.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Accelerated yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
All I was well on my way even without that.
That expedited, accelerated,all right.
So now I'm going to jump back.
You're an informant, you're anarcing, you're doing drugs.
Are you still dealing as you'rean informant?

Speaker 2 (27:08):
No, the dealing stopped.
I was too scared.
But I still have a $400 a dayhabit Of heroin, of heroin, of
snorting.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yep Ever doing, of heroin, of heroin, of snorting,
yep ever doing?

Speaker 2 (27:19):
injectables.
Uh, not until later, untillater yeah, all right.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
So what happens next?

Speaker 2 (27:23):
so so, basically, I have this habit and I'm at this
point I have to resort tostealing.
That's the only way to get themoney for the day.
What were you stealing?
Anything and everything.
Did you steal my car radio?

Speaker 1 (27:38):
No, I did not, I didn't have mine.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
I was really big into see.
I always had like a businessmindset in a crazy way.
So like I started this junkbusiness where I was picking up
people's junk, selling the metalI was doing odd jobs doing you
know power washing and stufflike that, and copper was a big
one for me, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
So I came from the telecom industry.
Copper is very good to recycle.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, so undisclosed.
I'm not going to give locationsor anything.
No, no, please don't.
But you know we would like newbuilding sites, you would you
were that guy, yeah, the onethat the contractors hate.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
Correct, I got you.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
So we would do that stuff.
I live on a farm so there's alot of random stuff, tools,
everything around the farm, soI'm stealing from there, taking
from my dad's wallet, when I canLike anything and everything.
Do you think they knew?
What Did they know they wouldcatch?
They would ask me questionsLike where'd my 20 go?

(28:38):
You know, I thought I got awaywith it, but they knew where I
was going.
You know I would hack intotheir online banking system,
transfer money to myself.
We did this last time too.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Sorry, forgot our one turn because the marker is not
there.
Gotcha Did this last time, allright, so your dad called you
out on it.
Maybe once in a place.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yeah, and I mean you're talking only like a span
of you know, the June is when Igot out of school.
Yeah, like end of May, june,and then by July is the first
time my, my mom's like you needto go to treatment.
Got it?

Speaker 1 (29:15):
So she at this point, your family's having the
discussion.
My mom's, like you need to goto treatment, got it.
So she, at this point, yourfamily's having the discussion.
They know they're aware.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, what.
What exacerbated and made myparents know like I need to do
something.
They need to do something aboutit is uh, my uncle came down
for the weekend from New York.
He has a prescription foranxiety medications.
I ate the whole bottle andfound me it was Xanax.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
Oh, that's a very abused drug.
Yes, I was hurting.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
I couldn't get my heroin that day.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
What's the difference in the high between Xanax and
heroin or an opioid?

Speaker 2 (29:49):
Completely different, better or worse, not enough.
Personally, I hate Xanaxbecause I black out.
Every time I take it I forgeteverything.
I lose my phone, my wallet.
I have conversations withpeople I can't remember and this
time I've basically likesleepwalking around and had a
whole conversation with myparents about what I've been
doing.

(30:09):
Basically had a wholeconversation about how I need
help and didn't remember.
I woke up the next day to myfamily sitting around the
kitchen table and they're likewe're going to get you some.
Remember?
I woke up the next day, it's myfamily sitting around the
kitchen table and they're likewe're going to get you some help
.
I'm like what are you talkingabout?
Like you don't rememberanything from last night.
I'm like I have no idea whatyou're talking about and so

(30:30):
that's just started my journey.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
What was that?
They send you to a treatmentfacility they did.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
Now they're very, very.
You know, like most families,you have no idea what to do in
this situation.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, no one does yeah, you can watch every show
in the world, but when it's you,yeah you're, you're in a panic
mode they have no idea where tostart.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, where do you send me?
What do I need?

Speaker 1 (30:50):
yeah, there's a lot of self-doubt and blame on
themselves a lot of questions itprobably came between your
parents relationship a a littlebit Correct.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Oh, a lot, A lot of it Showed you some fighting.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
It's your fault.
No, it's your fault.
You didn't hug him enough.
Type stuff.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Not so much that it was more of what needs to be
done.
My dad comes from a poorbackground.
He grew up in Manchester,england Okay, and had an
alcoholic mother has sevensiblings, so there is a
potential gene for abuse?
Oh, 100%, okay, yeah, it runsin both sides of my family.

(31:27):
Okay, just, we all havedifferent ics.
Yeah, workaholic my grandfatherwas a gambling addict, got it.
My uncle had drug issues.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
So it does stem in my family, so then I can imagine
your parents were saying it'syour family that caused this.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
No, your family no it's just my dad wanted to take
the harder route.
Let him figure it out.
It's a phase kind of thing whenmy mom was like, no, we need to
do something before he dies,break a cycle Right.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
And uh, so you go to rehab, where and how long?

Speaker 2 (31:59):
So the first time, like most parents, they call the
number on the back of theirinsurance card.
And you know, this is thescrewed up part of the industry
where people they don't know thetoxicity that exists in any
health care industry.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Well, health care is a business it is and its purpose
is a business it is and itspurpose is to drive down the
cost Correct and make sure thatAlso keep you patient.
Yeah, they're providing youonly enough.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Right, so they call the number on the back, of
course, they send me to thecheapest treatment center that
they could find.
Okay, which is where it is inBowling Green, pennsylvania.
Yeah, it was a homeless shelterAwesome, as well as like a soup
kitchen, okay, and a treatmentcenter all in one, okay.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
So they're not treating you, they're treating
other people, correct?

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Okay, I mean it was a horrible experience and I was
20 years old.
I had no intention.
I'm like how am I gonna besober if I live to 80?
Yeah, how am I gonna be soberfor 60 years?
It doesn't make sense.
How do I have fun without?

Speaker 4 (33:11):
drugs.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
How do I?
It's been my identity for solong.
How am I the party guy withoutdrugs?
How am I gonna be the life ofthe party?
How am I the party guy withoutdrugs?
How?

Speaker 3 (33:20):
am I going to be the life of the?

Speaker 2 (33:20):
party.
How am I going to be cool?
How am I going to fit in Allthose kind of questions swirling
around.
So I went into the firsttreatment center.
Horrible experience flooded onthe second day there's mildew.
I got sick.
I was in a room with someonethat had alcohol-induced
dementia.

Speaker 4 (33:40):
Oh, so he keeps waking up Real alcoholic.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, he keeps waking up, thinking I'm his wife and
screaming at me.
So I was just like I need toget out of here and convinced.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Did that scare you To the point where you would just
say you know what?
I don't want to be like this.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
No, Because I already thought I was a dirtbag at this
point.
I was already going into thatmode that there's nothing better
for me and like I didn't seeanother side of life.
I didn't see anything beingdifferent you accepted your
position Correct and I felt bad.
There was a lot of shame andguilt.

(34:19):
I didn't want to upset myfamily, I didn't want to steal
from them, but I did thesethings already.
So like there's kind of like ahow am I ever gonna get
forgiveness?
Kind of thing yeah, you know, Iwouldn't forgive myself, kind
of deal and so convinced myparents that I was cured in two
weeks and I'm all better.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
Did they believe it?

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Ready to go?
Of course they did, becauseevery parent does.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
They want it.
No, it's confirmation bias.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
They want it to be over.
Yeah, because they're scaredtoo.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
And their pain, which you know, you're putting
yourself and the people who loveyou in jeopardy.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, so I come home.
Mom has like a whole plan forme.
We got all these great things.
You're going to wake up, you'regoing to do this, and blah,
blah, blah.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
She got her boy back.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
She got her boy back.
She actually got me a dog,thinking that the dog is going
to.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
That's the best medicine I'm going to have
medicine.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, I was totally down for it.
But she thought it would giveme responsibility and structure.
But she wasn't wrong.
I just wasn't ready.
Within a week, less than a week, my drug dealers lived right
across the street from me.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
That's rule number one is you separate from anyone
that brings you back or hadassociation.
Yeah, it's very hard.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
I was very young and immature.
There's no way you were gonnaseparate me from my friends.
So relapsed, went down realquick, real fast.
It's like zero to a hundred.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Went right back to where I was Straight back to
heroin.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Yep, okay.
And then my mom caught mebecause she took off her wedding
ring to wash the dishes andgrabbed it.
You did not yep, and I grabbedit to go sell it.
I got to the pawn shop and Icouldn't, I couldn't do it, I
couldn't, I couldn't sell it.
All right, good, so all right,I was about to hate on you for a

(36:11):
second.
Yeah, I couldn't do it are youmarried?
Yes, you are you said?

Speaker 1 (36:14):
you're married.
Yep, imagine.
The most ceremonial gift youcan ever give your spouse in a
moment of pure love is nowswiped by your child.
Mm-hmm, yeah, it was filledwith pure evil at the time.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
Pure evil, that's evil, and that's what drugs do
that's what drugs do?

Speaker 1 (36:37):
Okay yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
They don't care, they don't.
You're so in your head you'regonna die.
You're so in fight or flightresponse and you're so in
survival mode that they're, andyou lost who you are at this
point.
So you have no moral compass,you don't.
You don't have any core beliefsanymore.

(37:00):
They're gone.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
You're not a member of society.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
You lost everything that you were, you're not a
contributing member of society.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
You are now a drain.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
You are a robot solely going trying to sustain,
getting the only need that youneed at this time, which is
drugs.
You will forfeit sexrelationships, water, food,
shelter, security.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
You're on pure survival, all for that substance
.
So let's fast forward to theChris Hansen special Yep, where
I saw your mom's scared facetalking to the camera.
She found you kicked open thedoor of a crack house, needle in
your arm and about to die.
So let's talk about that.

(37:44):
And then we're pivoting to whyyou're such an awesome human.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
Yeah, so I went back to treatment, ended up in
California this time.
Real treatment.
What was that?
A real place?
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
I mean, they're all real places.
No, but like a place thatgelled with you.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah Well, no, yes and no.
It was a nicer place, 100% Goodcounselors.
They were a 12-step model ofcare and I went out there and I
really wanted to make it work ina way, not for myself, but just
not to hurt others anymore.
Okay, that's the thing.

(38:20):
You're not going to really makechange happen unless you have
that internal motivation at theend of the day, and external
only takes you so far.
Yeah, so I got about 60 days ofrecovery and then, uh, was in a
sober living.
Someone started using linedmyself with them.
I was off to the races.
This time I met methamphetamine, oh, and, like I told you, I

(38:41):
love speed, so I found my newlove.
At this point, did you stopheroin for meth?

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, I would still use heroin every once in a while
, but it's more to come downthan to get high.
All right, so before we pivot,that's shocking.
Yeah, I've heard of people witha lot of heroin, but it's more
to come down than to get high.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
All right, so before we pivot, that's shocking.
Yeah, I've heard of people,when they're too into a
psychedelic trip, smoking weedand that brings them down.
But using heroin to come downoff of meth, yes, okay, it's a
downer, I get it.
So what does heroin feel likebefore we pivot to meth it?

(39:20):
So?
So heroin feel like before wepivot to meth?
Walk me through the feeling,because we all hear heroin
stories.
You're not the first, you'recertainly not the last, but no
one, I think.
If for those who have not triedit, myself included, what is it
like?

Speaker 2 (39:34):
for me it's like a warm hug, warm hug, you know you
fall asleep.
I mean, sometimes you nod out,but it's not like.
Isn't that a waste?
It's not like falling asleepthough You're going into like a
warm bath of euphoria.
For me, methamphetamine was thewhole grill for me, okay.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
Now we all hear horror stories about that.
Yeah, In fact, on the show inseason two, someone who is a
phenomenal person, inspirational.
He's a business coach.
His name is John Firth.
Mid episode he had asked what'sthe most shocking thing a guest
has ever told you?
And we're sitting on a benchwhat's the most shocking thing a

(40:18):
guest has ever told you?
And we're sitting on a bench inLiberty State Park and I told
them a few things and they werepretty shocking to me.
And then he said well, I have asubstance abuse problem
currently.
Wow, and I said, okay, coke,weed.
And then I made a quip Well,you have your teeth, so it's
definitely not meth.
And he goes no, no, no, no,meth.
Yeah, and I held my composurebecause that's what I do, a

(40:41):
business therapist.
You can't shock me.
But my mind went bonkers.
How could this individualtalking to me be actively having
this conversation while high on?

Speaker 2 (40:50):
meth.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
I've met neurosurgeons that do surgeries
high on meth okay, jesus, okayYep, as all people on this trail
just shocked themselves.
What the what?
Mm-hmm.
Neurosurgeons.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Neurosurgeons Working on your brain.
So yeah, so I'll get there,because I met him in my last
treatment center, but he wedon't say his name.
Obviously I won't say his name.
I don't know how he's doing.
I haven't spoke to him in yearsbut I hope he's not doing.
He was practicing medicalmedicine.
He was doing surgeries andLiterally smoking meth in the

(41:27):
operating room while doingsurgeries.
Yeah, Tweaking filmed himselfdoing it.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
Expletive yeah meth is one of those things that like
so now, if I need brain surgery, I need to say by the way, do
you do meth?

Speaker 2 (41:45):
in the cup, please wait.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
So do the nurses and the anesthesiologists and the
people in the room they all knowwhat.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
They're the ones who made him go to treatment.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
You know that person should be thrown in jail for
life period.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
I don't care if he's got a habit, because what it
does to you?
The world becomes gold, itbecomes the most exciting thing
ever and you are the king of it.
That's what it makes you feel.
It doesn't matter what it is,you will beat it, you will take
control of it, you are it in allof it.

(42:20):
It makes you extremely hyperfocused.
It allows you to stay up andwork past any kind of physical
barrier.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
Listen, I took Adderall in college to study for
tests.
I get that.
That's nothing.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Multiply that by a hundred thousand.
I'm going to say this with myhat off.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Kids.
Drugs are bad.
Stay off of them.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well, it deteriorates , you you know, very quickly,
because you can only sustainthat level of energy for so long
.
Now, when I was using, thelongest I stayed up without
sleep was 11 days.
11 days straight, no sleep.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
Just tweaking.
So right there, we know sleepdeprivation is you go into a
psychotic trip, correct, and youcan't fall asleep.
It's not like you didn't try,you just can't, you can't, you
can't 11 days and now you'rehallucinating.
So you're the zombie you see onthe New York City street
walking like this.
That person's on meth.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
No.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
No, no, that person's on heroin?

Speaker 2 (43:15):
That's heroin.
Yeah, that person's on heroin?
That's heroin, yeah.
Tweakers is.
I'm erratic.

Speaker 3 (43:19):
So the one that's doing this, yeah, like itching
all around that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
So it's like a South Park special, correct.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
My mind is blown and I hope these people go to jail.
I'm sorry I hope they gettreatment and lose their license
to practice.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, I mean when he told me that I was like what?
Yeah, dude, like I thought Iwas bad, I didn't up with that.
Okay, it's on another level,all right, you know, pivoting
back, so I end up on meth.
I go wild, I'm.
I'm mulling for the cartels outthere to supply my habit
mexican turtles.
I'm in, uh, palm springs,california, so we're very close

(43:53):
to tijuana.
Okay, so again I'm the whiteboy.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
So is that a shit your pants scenario when you're
talking to anyone in the cartel?
Yes, I would Do you have anystories of that where it's just
like you thought you were notcoming home?
Many of them.
Pretty much every interactionso is it kind of like hey,
gringo, come here and then gunto your head type situation Yep.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Like having to switch .
You know, they never want totell me where they are, so I'd
have to meet somewhere.
You'd have to get the bag overyour head, they'd have to drive
you to the next place.
Meanwhile I'm 20 years old.
You know, I'm tiny.
A guy From the use of meth Iwas 97 pounds.
Because I'm not eating, oh myGod.

(44:36):
And so I'm tiny.
I mean I'm wasting, god, and soI'm tiny.
I mean I'm wasting away andgetting a bag thrown over my
head.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
I had a girlfriend at the time You're getting a bag
thrown over your head.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, like you got the hood so that's literally
where you're going.
Oh yeah, the movies are real.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
Are you really afraid ?
Are you just so high thatyou're just like okay, cool, I
need my drug?

Speaker 2 (44:56):
It's the only way that I'm going to get it it.
You know, and they know thatthey got you.
Yeah, they're gonna use me forwhat I'm worth, which is I'm
gonna get through the borderwithout many questions and you
got through the.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
So you, I used to watch this show arrested abroad,
where I think that's the nameof it, and it was all about
these essentially mules peoplethat were lured out of countries
.
You know, honest, innocentpeople, but they were enticed by
a $10,000 payday for justputting something in their in
their suitcase.

Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yeah, for me.
They would give me a coupleounces of meth, which you know
was a huge score for me and youwould cross the border.
Yeah, so we would go over witha Toyota Corolla.
You know that had secretcompartments in the back,
whatever this is in San Diego.
Drop it off somewhere.
They would take it somewhereelse, they would load it up,

(45:41):
bring it back to you.
Did you ever feel like you wereabout to get caught?
Oh, every, every second.
Why didn't you get caught?
Well, again, because I'm anAmerican citizen, I'm white, I
look like a kid that was justgonna go enjoy spring break.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Yeah, but every other mule that you see is also a
white American citizen.
They get caught, so why not you?

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Well, you've got to think At the border, what are
they processing, like hundredsof thousands of cars a day?
Got it?
It's just a lot of probability.
I'd like to think, because I'mjust so good at mulling, but
that's not the case.
It's just the luck of a draw,okay, but it's.
You're scared, you don't?

(46:21):
You're just crossing yourfingers and hoping you get
through and you're just thinkingabout I'm gonna go get high
after this, so that's all you'rethinking all right, all right,
I understand.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
So how many trips did you take?

Speaker 2 (46:29):
um, we did about seven, seven trips, like that
and it was only meth.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
And you said how many .

Speaker 2 (46:36):
I mean, honestly, I don't really know what.
They put it in the back of thecar.
You don't want to ask, I don'twant to ask, you don't ask, you
don't look you don't touch it.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
What was the scariest moment in front of?

Speaker 2 (46:44):
the cartel.
The scariest part is I had agirlfriend at the time.
You know, obviously, being agirl in those situations, you're
extra vulnerable.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
She was physically with you.
Yes, At the cartel also a druguser, I imagine.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Yes, we were both using.
She's the one who introduced meto injection.
She was a nurse, so she taughtme how to inject Meth, meth, all
of it.
It didn't really matter at thispoint.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
All right, let's go there in a second, but so the
scariest moment in front of thecartel.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Scariest moment is that we ended up out some kind
of you know, flop house kind ofordeal.
It's a stash house In Mexico.
No, this was in California,okay, and you know we're in the
desert, so you go through likemassive areas of nothing.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
And then you come to like a little town.
You're driving over bodies thathave been buried Probably yeah,
okay.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
You end up at this little house.
I think they were just messingwith us.
But you know they started, likeyou know, grabbing her, telling
her what they're going to do.
He's going to have to watch.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Just you know, messing with us.
How old are these cartelmembers?
I have no idea.
The kids or adults.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
They probably range.
I mean, all of them look olderthan probably what they are.
Okay, just because you, justbecause they're all tattooed up
and stuff like that, but they'relike hardened criminal.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
Yeah, these guys are hardcore, so I imagine it must
have been something likeBreaking Bad when they meet Tuco
.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
Yeah, it's something like that.
I mean that's an exaggeratedstandpoint, but oh that's
exaggerated Cause.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
that scared the shit out of me when I watched
Breaking Bad at least a dozentimes.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, I do love that show, but when they meet Tuco
you're like that dude thatdude's crazy.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
And then they meet his uncle.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, I mean, I mean he would do meth and he was
always blasted out Tuco in theshow.

Speaker 3 (48:29):
I mean, these guys didn't really yeah, they didn't.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
They didn't mess with their supply.
You know they were businessmen.
At the end of the day, they'rejust willing to kill you to get
a business deal.
You know you, you're a purenumber.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
You are a commodity to them correct and uh.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
So you know all this was happening.
That was the scariest pointbecause I didn't think we were
going to get out of there.
You know, I was worried aboutmy girlfriend at the time that
you know she's.
They're just going to keep herthere and do whatever and I'm
not going to be able to doanything.
Like I said, I'm 97 pounds.
One of my fight there was about15 guys there, so yeah, all
strapped up.
How did you?

(49:04):
get out of that situation so Ithink they're just messing with
us basically at the end of it.
I mean yeah, it was about 40minutes of them just messing
with us like I, and I reallydidn't think I'm getting out of
there they take your driver'slicense so they know who you are
.
Type of situation oh yeah, theyknow everything.
Yeah, they're looking you up onfacebook, you know, you know,

(49:26):
telling you, you know yourmother's name, that kind of
stuff, oh shit, you know.
So I mean, I don't know if theyare that capable, as I say they
are, but of course, though, youyou were in a room with 15
adult men tatted and their lifeof crime.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
They could have easily done whatever they wanted
to do with both you and yourgirlfriend and buried you and no
one would ever know you existed.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Correct?
Yeah, there is no law At thattime.
100% when we were.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
You could have buried me in the backyard and no one
was going to find me there, butthey didn't because you were of
use to them as a mule, correct?
And what did they give you inthat situation?
Um, for that, for that job, wegot about two ounces of meth.
Two ounces, yeah.
Making a hand gesture, oh,that's two ounces of meth.
A brick, yep.
Two ounces of meth in exchangefor literally two people's lives

(50:13):
.
And how much money did you make?
I?

Speaker 2 (50:17):
didn didn't make anything, I just used old meth
oh so walk me through why theywould give you two ounces of
meth.
It was cheaper for them to giveme meth and cash they're going
to make.
Oh, so that was your paymentfor mulling.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Yeah, that was my payment.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
Yeah, I didn't care about cash at this point, talk
about an addictive businessmodel.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
Yeah, their product costs them virtually nothing.
Yeah, their product costs themvirtually nothing.
Right, it gets you hooked tocome back.
Right, the drug in America thatis very popular is called money
.
Mm-hmm, right, that's whatkeeps you working at your desk,
correct For a job.
Money is the addiction that weall suffer from, and in your
case, the real addiction is trueaddiction.
You have no choice.

(50:54):
Mm-hmm, oh, geez, guys, are welearning in all of your days on
the, on the force, yes, whateveryou call it.
Have you ever heard this storylike this?

Speaker 2 (51:06):
so you're aware of this oh yeah, what was up?

Speaker 4 (51:11):
I don't know what branch they belong to, but I
probably my one of my last cases, about four years ago, was a
kilo of meth, so it started ascoke.
Kilo, yeah it started as cokeon Renwick Street in the city of
Newburgh Turned out it was meth.
Sonola cartel was pushing itinto Newburgh through some hubs

(51:33):
in Jersey Philly there's a.
Florida Connect and ArizonaConnect, but the majority of it.
The mules are crossing theCalifornia border right down to
Tijuana, but that was insane.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
But have you ever heard the story from the mule
like this?

Speaker 3 (51:49):
Yeah, interviewing them.
Yeah, yeah, interview them,because usually that's that's
your only way into the biggerguys.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
So I'm obviously not recording you guys on video,
because there's probably peoplethat would love to know who you
are, so we're going to go by thenames of Bob and Michael the
doctor thing man.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
That was like some of my last big cases were working
on these doctors in Queens andit seemed like every person we
locked up in Manhattan had apill bottle with the same doctor
from Queens.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
They obviously lost their license.
I hope it was a giant case.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
I mean the DA that we worked with.
She wrote a book about it andeverything.
It was pretty impressive.
But at one point there was adoctor downtown Manhattan, one
of the hospitals Boy, I wish Icould remember what hospital.
Anyway, there was a doctorthere and he was geeked out of
his mind constantly on heroin.
Geeked is like a inside term.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
Yeah, he was like yeah, just smashed always.

Speaker 3 (52:45):
And he had a substantial habit and he was in
the operating room operating andhim and another surgeon were
taking turns in shifts.
His shift was up, he came out,he was not feeling well, needed
needed more heroin, overdosedand died mid surgery.
Oh my god.
So you can see how that canscrew things.

Speaker 4 (53:05):
That's a lawsuit oh my god.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
Yeah, it's not like you can find another
neurosurgeon just running on byexactly no, it's no bounds,
that's so, but it's it'sunfortunately.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
Have you guys ever felt bad for the mule like?
Have you heard this?

Speaker 1 (53:15):
story that's.
I mean, that's like you.
You ever felt bad for the muleLike.
Have you heard this storythat's?

Speaker 4 (53:20):
I mean, that's like you know you're in the game.
Next thing you know you have anaddiction and then you know the
gang's using you as a mule.
I mean they're using you anychance they can, because it's
true, well, he's a number, right, he's just a tick.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
Until I actually struggled with my own addiction
problem.
You had your own addictionproblem While working, and once
I got past that, it startedmoving on.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
So you were a detective at that point, yeah,
and you were.
What were you addicted to as a?

Speaker 3 (53:47):
police officer like a substantial part of my career.
I mean it was just active, youknow, and it all.
What were you addicted on Pills.
Same thing pills how.
Started as an injury in theMarines and you know.
Then they were just like here.
You know how many do you need.
What do you want Like?
What do?

Speaker 1 (54:04):
you need Because you're a Marine.
Yeah, you can take it, dowhatever.
Yeah, well, the VA sucks.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
And then it just slowly progressed to the point
where I had a surgery, I had tohave another surgery and after
that surgery, while I was home,I started to feel better, like
no pain.
And then I saw myself takingthese pills when I wasn't in

(54:30):
pain and I'm like, man, I gotta,and you're a cop.
Yeah, I identified it and I wasable to put my finger on it for
a while and I was home for oh,I was home for oh, I was home
for a broke, something at work,like my foot or something like
that, and I was out for a whileand then I just like a switch
went off and I said I'm done,that's it.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
So I had to detox in my house in my base and you
can't tell anyone because you'rea cop.
Yeah, and cops don't have havep tests they, um, they do.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
But I had a prescription for everything.
You know.
I had a prescription.
I doctor shopped.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
This doesn't shock you.
Well, with our treatmentcenters, we specialize in PBA
officers and VA.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
When you mentioned your treatment center, I know
it's the farm, I know that'swhere the guys go.
So, guys, we're going.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
We're probably midway through this.
This episode is going to be along one, because this is a
great story, not great in thatsense.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
Everyone needs to hear this episode.
I never sympathized with theseguys until I had my own
experience.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
Until you were on that side.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
And then I was like man, I get it, like I get it.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Did it make you a better cop?

Speaker 3 (55:35):
I wouldn't say better man it gave me a lot of false
confidence.
I wouldn't say better man.
It gave me a lot of falseconfidence.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
Did it make you understand the plight of a
informant a little better?
Oh yeah, so would you be morelenient on them?
Never more lenient.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
So you upheld their game better?
Yeah, but I was always.
I had like I don't want to saya soft spot, but I was
empathetic.
Like I have conversations withthese guys, I'm like, look man,
like I get it.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
Yeah, these are relationships.

Speaker 3 (56:02):
I don't know how else I could tell you, like I get it
.
That's the best I can do foryou.
Like I understand where you'recoming from, whatever, but now
we you know there's also stuffthat we got to do.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
I got a job to do.
Or are you Mike?
Which one are you?
I'm Mike, you're Mike, that'sBob.
Okay, when I first met Mike, Iasked him this question Did you
ever have an informant die onyour watch?

Speaker 3 (56:23):
Yeah yeah, I had my business up.
That's funny.
He had my business card in hispocket when they found him dead.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
And he was killed because he was an informant.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
He had the 20 bucks on him that I gave him the 20
bucks I gave him.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
So he was killed because he was discovered as an
informant I.

Speaker 3 (56:39):
I don't know if it was because he was discovered.
I think that he was justinvolved in a lot of man.
He was a street guy did youfeel bad?

Speaker 1 (56:47):
no you didn't feel bad?
No, mike, I asked you thisquestion did you feel bad when
your informant was killed?

Speaker 4 (56:55):
I.
That was something I alwaysknew was.
I actually would tell him thatall the time.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
He's going to get killed.

Speaker 4 (57:00):
Yes, I said, if you don't change paths, you're
either going to be in jailforever or I'm going to be
standing over you one day.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
But it's bittersweet though, because you want him to
continue as an informant.
You, essentially, are usingthese informants as your own
mule to bust the bigger guys, asmuch as the bigger guys are
using the drug mule guys I wasinforming with, like the cops
that were doing this, like Imean they were nice guys, like
they, I mean they're in it.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
I I felt bad for them because their their job is to
go into my life, like some ofthese guys have been undercover
for years and biker gangs, andlike I couldn't imagine faking,
the pressure of faking.
We saw the sons of anarchy andwhat you're I mean you got to
use drugs.
If you're in those situationsLike you can't be fake.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
You know what I?

Speaker 3 (57:45):
mean Do the undercover ones?
You can't.
It's a big misconception.
Like you can see how you canget into a situation where you
may have to, or something likethat.
All right, so let's just saythe job has zero tolerance in
going into it.
You know that.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
So what I'm about to say is a completely contrived
scenario.
But I'm in a biker gang, I'm anundercover cop and my test you
know the old cliche are you acop?
No, okay, well then you can't.
That's bullshit.
We know that's not true.
A cop can tell.
They say okay, prove, you'renot a cop.
Here's a line.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
It happens, but nowhere near as much as you
would think.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
Most of the gangs that I've been involved with
like the top guys.
If you're at that level,they're not messing with the
stuff.
No.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
And if they're trusting you to come into their
business.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
They don't want you messing with the stuff.
I mean, I was scum of the earth.

Speaker 3 (58:38):
They expect the lower level guys, the users.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
The ones that are in the street risking their life
every day.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
You know, using it as a business to make money.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
They know that they're really not All right, so
another question aboutinformants Did you get a sense
that the majority, if not all ofyour informants, or none, were
happy that they turned at leasta life of good or had an
opportunity to be good, or didyou feel like they were
reluctant?

Speaker 3 (59:06):
You know they were.
It was like a mix.
Some of them used the money andthe resources that we gave them
.
Oh, you gave them money.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
Good money, yeah yeah , just for their own good or to
buy, yeah, yeah whatever theywanted.

Speaker 3 (59:18):
A lot of times they used it to get high, um, so we
would pay them to to go insomeplace and make a buy.
You know we give them like 40,so it's like my kids, keep the
change.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, go in there.
Except I'm giving them a 20,you know, and I expect 14 back.
We do that a few times.

Speaker 3 (59:33):
And then I get a warrant and I go to a location
that we boom the door, we lockup a bunch of people, I get a
supplier and all that.
Then I'll go back to thatinformant.
I mean, you know, hey, meet meat wherever and I'll give them,
you know, probably a couplegrand and that comes from the
police department.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Right, it's not your money, no, no, the police
department has their own fundsfor that.
Where were you getting yourdrugs from all legal um?

Speaker 3 (59:54):
mostly yeah, from the pharmacy and the doctors again.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
your name is bob, so no, no one knows you.
Wow, but when you were gettingyour street, when you were
giving informants drugs, wasthat from cases or people that
were arrested?

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
So we never gave informants drugs.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
What about you, mike?

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
Never, ever ever, never, never.

Speaker 4 (01:00:12):
So it's not like Hollywood.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
If we were in a situation we were in a case
where that was part of it and wehad to 99.9% of the time, I
feel like they would have beenfake.
They would have been fake drugs.
Your informant's killed on thatone.
The agencies really wouldn'tlet you mess around with real
drugs.
Once they came in, they neverwent back out.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
All right, let's go on with our journey.
This is a season three finale.
Eye-opening, because I am notthat person Now.
I have dabbled in your world alittle bit, but not with
extremes to that extent, and Idon't have an addictive
personality.
So I was confident in any timeI used a drug to party or for
the night.

(01:01:00):
I was confident I would return,not needing it the next day.
But you have to know yourpowers and your limits.
I am not telling people tonever use drugs.
In fact there are drugs thatare really good out there.
This study is on psilocybin andketamine to help depression are
showing far better results thanthe prescription drugs, which

(01:01:21):
are equally, if not worse, right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
So it is a good versus evil.
We utilize those at ourtreatment centers.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
Yeah, and psilocybin growing in the ground is a
natural drug versus theprescription for whatever this
pharmaceutical company made upjust to get the money out of
your wallet and get you addicted, correct?

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
You know we get it.
It's good versus evil.
I mean it's a balance whenyou're dealing with mental
health, with a lot of those youknow, a lot of them are outdated
, those medications.
Of course, A lot of them comewith serious side effects that
would lead to depression anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
Or or the.
The one I love is, if you arehaving increased suicidal
thoughts or hard thoughts ofharming yourself because of the
use of this anti-depression, yes, please speak to your.
Stop using it immediately,right?
That wording right there tellsyou this is not for you yes, and
there's no long-term studies onthis so let me, let me pivot
now.
Let's go to the moment your momkicked in the crack house door.

(01:02:15):
What happened?

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
so I'm running and gunning in california.
I kind of come to theconclusion that I'm not going to
hurt my family by, I'm justgoing to disappear, essentially.
So I'm running and gunning tothe fullest extent, completely
just living in a state ofpsychosis.
My drug habit at the end ofthis is about three grams of
bath salts.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Methamphetamine about a teener, Three grams of bath
salts which are legallypurchased?
Correct, Because we don't.
The laws can't outlaw things asquick as they come out.
Correct?
Are bath salts illegal now orlegal still?

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Depends what formula.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
So some chemist in the Dutch world comes up with a
new formula.

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
Yeah, it's all shipped over from China.
They have super labs that dothis stuff Okay, but it
basically gives you the effectof methamphetamine and LSD
together.
Oh my god, that is not a person.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
I want to hang out with for the night.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Yeah, so I'm doing that methamphetamine and then
I'm using Xanax and heroin tocome down after I've been up for
too long and I'm seeing toomuch stuff.
Okay, and so my mom wants torescue me.
She's trying to figure outwhere I am.
She gets a hold of mygirlfriend's mother and finds

(01:03:29):
out that she's going to go outto California to try to get to
my girlfriend.
The mother said that she's beenin contact with my girlfriend
because at the time it was taxseason, so my girlfriend's
trying to get her taxes back sowe could use it for drug use.
The mom said hey, I got thecheck.
I don't want to mail it orwhatever.
I'm going to drive it out toyou.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Us, we didn't care, it's like an intervention tax,
yeah, so her mom's coming outhere, but she doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Her focus is her daughter Doesn't really want to
help my mom, so my mom's justlike screw it.
I'm going to go out toCalifornia and she literally hid
at the airport in a bush andwaited for this woman to leave
the airport and saw mygirlfriend pull up for her and
my mom literally jumped in thecar and hijacked the car.
I might have been running withgangs, but my mom's the only

(01:04:16):
gangster in the family a momwith her baby, you know, in in
jeopardy, just like a fatherthey do everything.
So she jumped in the car.
You're taking me to my sonright now so they pull up to the
.
At this point we're living inan abandoned hotel and uh, she
squatting, yeah, squatting inthe hotel and she I hear the

(01:04:40):
pounding at the door andhonestly, I thought it was the
cops and I was just about toshoot up some more meth.
So you really were shooting upmeth.
Yep and the door opens, do you?

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
have track marks still scars.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
No, not really.
I'm very vascular, okay, soit's very easy Bro for
vascularity.
Yeah, so IV use was very easyfor me.
I actually was so skinny that Ihad veins that ran down my ribs
into my stomach and I usedthose veins, not my arms.
So your mom knocks on the door.
So my mom knocks on the door.
No one answers because I thinkit's the cops.

(01:05:13):
And then she basically kicksthe door open and I stood there
with a spoon and needle in handand I just saw a silhouette and
light coming through and I hearmy mother's voice and I'm in a
state of psychosis so.
I'm like what the hell is goingon right now, and the only way I
could describe it is like Iregressed to like a four year
old state and I didn't like whatI was doing.

(01:05:36):
I you know, I saw myselfwasting away in front of in the
mirror.
I hated myself, you were readyto die.
I was ready to go and I wastrying to Actually the shot that
I was going to shoot up was afull gram and a half in one shot
.
You were about to do a shot tokill yourself.
Yeah, every shot at this pointfor the last, like three days,

(01:05:57):
up till my mom was there, I justkept putting more and more kind
of I'm suicidal, but I didn'thave really the balls to kill
myself, yeah.
So like I would just put alittle bit more to see if that
one was the one that I go.
So this is kind of like fear andloathing in las vegas yeah, a
little bit, except differentdrug obviously alcohol, and one
of these it was like the secondday I I did overdose.

(01:06:19):
Overdosing on meth is differentthan heroin.
How so?
It's kind of it's because itreally has to do with your heart
, like all I could reallydescribe is I think I had like a
mini stroke and I wentunconscious and you know, the
people I'm with just dragged meout to the alleyway on the side
of the building and I justhappened to wake up from it and
came back too know that washappening and and the shot that

(01:06:41):
I had ready to go was, uh, itwas about a gram and a half of
meth, that's a lot, which is alot of meth like usually a gram
will last you like three days,so I was doing a gram and a half
, so you knew at any moment youwere going to do the dose that
would do you in

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
yeah and you wanted that I did, and you think that
when your mom knocked on thatdoor, broke it down, down and
saw you that was.
If she hadn't done that, youwould have been dead that night.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
I very well could have been yeah, and I was okay
with it at that point.
So she comes in and I regressedto a four-year-old state.
I was just like Mom, like,because I'm in California, I'm
3,000 miles away, like, how likemom, like because I'm in
california, I'm three thousandmiles away.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
Like how did you find me here?
You know, this is like the Isaw my life flash before my eyes
.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Yeah, real, and I.
I followed her back to the car,um, and she's driving me to, uh
uh, mutual friends and she wasgonna her.
Her plan was that she was gonnaget me on a plane and compete,
kind of do like, chain you to aradiator style recovery, get me
back to new jersey.
But I was well, you'll die.
I was a mess.
I mean, I was.
I was up for multiple days.

(01:07:46):
At this point, you need to beweaned off, otherwise you'll die
.
Yeah, and and the drug mindsetcame through about like halfway
through the drive and I and she,I remember asking me, like what
are we dealing with, dan?
Like what do we need to do?
And, um, you know, I lifted upmy shirt and pulled up my arms.
I'm like this is what you'redealing with.
And like I was a mess, like Ihad, you know, track marks all
over the place and you know I'm97 pounds a mess and I'm

(01:08:11):
screaming at my mom.
You can't save me.
Like let me go.
Like you're, we're gonna gohere and get you help.
I'm like there's no point.
Like let me die, mom.
And I couldn't imagine being mymom and hearing your son say
this, like pleading with you tolet him die.
Like and I'm dead set, like Iam vicious with it.

(01:08:34):
And now I try.
I'm trying to leave the house.
No one's listening to me.
I'm trying to leave the house.
They called the police on meand they 5150'd me, which is
when they take away your rights,you're in danger to yourself or
others.
And they didn't have to do this.
Like, thank God for the copsGood cops, yeah, they wanted me
to get help and I was ferociousman.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
I was not in a good state of mind.
You got the strength of ten men.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
Yeah, so they're trying to tell me that they're
going to take away my rights.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
I'm reciting the Constitution that they can't do
that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
And one cop takes out his taser, hits me in the neck.
I thought he hit me with a bat.
I thought he took his baton outand hit me.
That's what it felt like and Iwas like you mother, like how
are you going to hit me rightnow?
So I got up and I punched himright in the face.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
I broke his nose.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
Yeah, I broke his nose.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
Wait, you hit a cop.
Oh yeah yeah, how are youhaving this conversation with me
, and not in jail?

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
I don't know, man, I have a guardian angel or
something.
Yeah, I got four more tasers tothe neck after that you broke a
cop's nose.

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
No charges.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
No, I didn't get any charges, you're going to ask the
same question.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
You weren't who you were.
The color of your skin probablya little different.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
No, yeah, I think honestly.
Where I was, there's a lot ofrehabs in that area.
So they see it time and timeagain kids that aren't from that
area, that get lost in the mixand that, and then they're
dealing with it.
So there's a frustration ontheir part to help right if I
get this person help, then Idon't have to deal with it kind
of mentality, right?
Have you seen these, thesepolice officers?

(01:10:12):
These cops after uh, yeah, I'veseen some of them in in the mix
and not all of them yeah, ofcourse.
Yeah, I mean I.
I wouldn't have this chance oflife if it wasn't for them
putting up with that all right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
So how so you beat up a cop?
They tase you a whole bunch oftimes.
You've got the strength.
I fall down.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
I I have a scar from falling into you do the uh into
a table.
I cut my whole, my wholeeyelids hanging off my face I
pissed myself um.
I didn't know they had straightjackets.
I thought that was a like athing in the movies I was
putting in a stray jacket put inthe padded room yeah, they
never padded me down, though, soI ended I still had three grams
of basalt on me, so in thepadded room.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
So now you're entering a holding cell with
with drugs.
So okay, stack these charges.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
So I uh take everything out.
You, my hands are bound andstuff.
So like I managed to get themopen with my mouth and stuff and
get them on the ground and Isnort the three grams in the
floor of the pad room.
You know they rush in.
They're like what the fuck?
They hit me with some kind ofshot in my butt.
I'm out, cold, gone, and I wakeup in the ambulance on a drive

(01:11:18):
to a psych hospital somewhere inAurora, california, and I'm
locked up there for days.
It took me five days to comedown.
Every day I tried to escapesomehow.
One day I ripped the lightswitch off the wall and I used
that to unbolt windows.
To try to push the window outand escape.
I ran down the hallways.

(01:11:39):
I'd call my mom like you needto let me die, and I'm like I'm
leaving, and I run down thehallway, get tackled, shot in
the butt, wake up.
It was like Groundhog's Day.
I just kept waking up in thispadded room and then on the
fifth day, my mom came in tovisit me and I crawled in her
lap and I cried and I'm like Idon't, I'm sorry and I don't
know what to do.
I don't know where it goes fromhere.

(01:12:03):
I don't know what I'm to do.
I just feel like a lost cause.
If you want me to try something,I'll try something.
That's kind of where I was, soyou're at a state of I want to
kill myself.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
I can't do it, so I'm just going to keep upping my
drugs until I do it.
So now you are fighting foryour life because you don't have
the drug to where you've givenup on life and you're like fuck
it, my life is.
So, whatever it is, I'm justgoing to now commit to being
sober I I.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
No, I was just I.
I was just broken I I.
There was no commitment, it wasjust, it was just.
Uh, I put down the sword ifthat you gave up.
Yeah, yeah, I went with the flowyeah, I'm like I'm gonna just
go with the flow.
I mean, I was beaten up at thispoint I was.
I was a mess man like justemotionally all over the place,

(01:12:56):
spirit completely broken andjust physically drained.
I haven't eaten in months.
I'm just a mess, you know.
And it just so happened mygrandfather was reading, saw a
commercial for a treatmentcenter that happened to be like
right down the street from meand the only way for me to get
out of this place is I literallyhad to have someone that was

(01:13:20):
going to guard me from thepsychiatric hospital to this
location.
And they just so happened toprovide that service where they
would make sure I got to thenext place.
Because I'm a ward of the state, I'm literally the property of
California at this point.
So I was forced into the nexttreatment center and it was the

(01:13:42):
whole other side of life.
This place was in Malibu,california it's on the cliffs of
.
Malibu.
No, no, it's called passages,oh passages yeah, you know, I
once was an addict.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
No, I'm not yeah, yeah, I've seen that commercial
and, um, wow, it was.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
You know it was absolutely stunning.
I had a five-star chef andinfinity pool.
I was like this was you know itwas absolutely stunning.
I had a five-star chef inInfinity Pool.
Oh, so there's.
I was just like this is amazing.
You know they're wooing you atthis point Well, yeah, I mean it
was.
All those things were great youknow what I mean and awesome.
That's not what gets you sober,though.

Speaker 1 (01:14:13):
No, but that helps you realize that there's
something better in life to atleast experience.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
It gave me a sense of maybe there's something to go
after in life, maybe I'm worthit if I somehow ended up here by
chance.

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
Like you know, I started believing in something
more you know, you startedbelieving that you could do it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
Yeah, that I had a little bit more self-worth, Like
maybe I'm worth trying for OkayWell clearly you are because
someone was worth fighting foryou.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
Correct, it's your mom.
Yes, all right, so you're here.
How long are you at Passage?

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
I'm here for 30 days and what was fantastic about
this program is that I got eightdifferent therapists that I met
with individually each week andthey all had different
disciplines, so they reallypulled me apart in a million
different ways.
I attribute a lot of my successtoday to a man named noah
rothschild, who his disciplinewas inner child work and really

(01:15:11):
unraveling.
You know what is this unhealthyperspective that you have that
keeps leading you to this cycle,this unhealthy cycle?
So this guy saved you.
Yeah, I attribute a lot of mymindset today to the work that
we did together while atPassages and beyond Passages,
because I kept up with him.
So, this works this.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
You're still over for at least 30 days.

Speaker 2 (01:15:34):
What was great about this is it was non-denominative.
So a lot of these 12-steptreatment centers what they do
is they say, hey, here's a boxof recovery, this is how you
recover.
Fit into this box, you'll findlife.
If you don't fit into the box,you're gonna die.
That's pretty much the synopsisof the teachings in most of
these places.
That's the Minnesota model ofrecovery.
The this place was cold,completely non-denominative,

(01:15:55):
like there is no box of recovery.
You build the box of recovery.
It's yours.
We're going to give you all thematerials and tools to build
this box.
It's up to you to take theaction, but we're going to let
you experience all thesedifferent things.
Yeah, and I love that.
I was like, oh my God, I canbuild my own house of recovery.
And a lot of things spoke to me.
I took to a lot of Easternmedicine and philosophy and

(01:16:25):
Buddhism and inner child workand DBT tools.
All these different thingsstarted exercising, eating
healthy.
I was just on fire.
I'm like, oh my god, I could dothis.
Yeah, and then at the end ofthat treatment center, I'm like,
yes, okay, I just got to keepthis up and do these things.
Now this is 2010, 2011.
So at the time in New Jersey, alot of these holistic therapies

(01:16:45):
like now everybody likesholistic things, yeah, but at
the time, like yoga studiosweren't even really a thing in
New Jersey yet.
I was like a California thing,yeah.
So I was gonna go home and Imet with my discharge planner
and they handed me my aftercareplan of what I'm supposed to
follow when I leave and it wasgo to 12 step meetings, 90

(01:17:05):
meetings in 90 days.
I'm like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
You just literally taught methis way for 29 days and now
you're telling me go do thatother thing that didn't work for
you all those times before.
Yeah, and I'm like how doesthat make sense?
Yeah, it's hypocritical.
So I call my mom and I'm likemom, like let's go this way.

Speaker 4 (01:17:24):
What am I gonna?

Speaker 2 (01:17:25):
what am I gonna do, you know?
And I'm literally upset cryingwith her on the phone and she's
like if it doesn't exist, we'llbuild it, dan it doesn't exist,
we'll build it man, your mom isa warrior, yeah, she's a badass.
And I'm like, okay, whatever yousay, ma.
And so I came home, built arecovery plan we had to search

(01:17:47):
far and wide for the things thatI was into and built a recovery
plan for myself and I was doingfantastic.
And then she pushed me intodoing prevention work.
She went to some presentationfor back-to-school night or
whatever for my sister.
There was a guy speaking abouthis story and it was a
prevention type of scenario athigh schools and she was like my

(01:18:09):
son would be great for this.
And I got hooked up with himand I was nervous as hell.
I didn't want to tell my story.
I didn't do public speaking.
I was actually a very shy kid.
You know, again that thatchange thing, all that old stuff
that I was dealing with withthe child that went away by
using drugs, came flooding backwithout the drugs, you know.

(01:18:32):
So I'm not adapting to change.
Well, again, I'm sociallyawkward and nervous and anxiety
and all that kind of stuff.
So I remember sitting at myfirst speech and I literally had
to read my own story off apiece of paper because I was so
nervous I couldn't even rememberme and I'm shaking, and after

(01:18:52):
that I had like five kids comeup to me and they're like I have
a brother who I have a dad whoa mother who you know.
Thank you for saying that.
I needed to hear that there'shope on the other side and I'm
like wow.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
I made a difference, you know.
I mean, I thought I was awful,you know, and you lived many
years where you were low.

Speaker 2 (01:19:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah , I was well seasoned at that
point, as I like to call it.
So I I started doing that.
I started doing speeches atschools.
I pretty much hit every highschool in the state of New
Jersey doing middle schools.
My mom got involved with medoing it and she's like let's
make an elementary schoolprogram.
So she was Crazy Susie and Iwas Traffic man Dan and we had a

(01:19:36):
right lane and a lost lane andkids had to tell you which way
to go with all these decisionsthey had to make.
It was like a play andelementary school started
wanting that presentation andall my friends, every single one
of us from high school, mygroup of friends there's 14 of
us Only one didn't do drugs.
The rest of them ended upaddicted.
So they started seeing me doingwell and hearing me doing well,

(01:19:59):
seeing me do these speeches,seeing me on facebook, and
they're like what are you doing?
that's working because theywanted it yeah, and I'm going
back to school at this point forsocial work, so I'm in
psychology classes.
You're purposeful.
We had a dream uh, to you know,start a treatment center and uh
, so I'm going to school,working horse shows, doing all

(01:20:20):
this, just grabbing life by thehorns.
And I started helping myfriends build a recovery plan
for themselves, started helpingpeople get into treatment, got
certified as an interventionist.
So then I started travelingaround the world.
I mean, we did interventions inScotland and England and all
across America.
I was getting called byfamilies and I loved it.

(01:20:43):
It was like exciting for me.
It was a way for me to pullsomebody out of the wreckage and
, you know, being on the otherside of the table kept me sober
at the end of the day, you'refinding extreme purpose and it's
almost like a new addiction.

Speaker 1 (01:20:55):
Your addiction is helping yourself and staying
sober and helping others.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
Yeah, helping others it was is helping yourself and
staying sober and helping others.
Yeah, helping others, it waswhat I always wanted, like back
from the kid when I'm hiding thefood underneath his bed, I I
just, from the work that I wasdoing, I really became in, in
tune, in my authentic self.
I like wasn't afraid to begoofy and quirky, and I didn't
have to be the cool kid, Ididn't have to be the life of
the party, I just was.
You found yourself, yeah, and Ilike it just seemed everything,

(01:21:22):
even when it's bad, you're goingto get to the other side of it.
You know that's how everythingbecame so.
Challenges in life, those lullsof life, those valleys.
I look forward to them becauseI know something great is going
to come out the other side, aslong as I stay to and I keep
Dude high five for that.

Speaker 4 (01:21:41):
Well, that's a low five you gotta be a nerd in that
one.
Let's go this way.

Speaker 1 (01:21:46):
Holy cow.

Speaker 2 (01:21:48):
So my mother and I, after a bunch of my friends,
started asking me what to do.
I was like there seriouslyneeds to be a place for people
to come to that are like me,that, you know, don't
particularly do the 12 steps.
Um, you know, I was 21 at thetime.
So how do I meet girls insobriety?

(01:22:08):
Like, how do I fit in as a 21year old into this world when I
don't drink?
You know, I started gettinginto fitness and doing mud man
axes and all those kinds ofthings.
And uh, by the way.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
This is your addictive personality.
So there's a good addiction andbad addiction.
We know that the dude at thegym pumping iron like crazy is
addicted to not only looking athimself, but addicted to the
pump.

Speaker 2 (01:22:31):
Arnold said right, it's better than a comic right.

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
Can't do an Arnold voice, but anyway.
But you have an addictivepersonality, so whatever you're
into positive or negative willbe your addiction.
So I promise that this storyand Daniel Regan's journey would
be very positive, so let's hearit.
So what do you do now?

Speaker 2 (01:22:53):
So now I realize that there's a lot of people that
are like me, that are not reallyfitting into this Minnesota
model of recovery, that areinterested in the things that
help me get sober.
I love helping people, so weneed to create a place for them
to come.
That's where my mother and Istarted our nonprofit

(01:23:14):
organization.
That's where my mother and Istarted our nonprofit
organization called Coming FullCircle Loud and Clear.
Coming Full Circle Loud andClear.
Okay.
So everything was about beingon that other side of life,
right, coming full circle fromwhere you're at, because that's
where we were being yourauthentic self, loud and clear,
right.
So that's where the name camefrom, okay, and what we did was

(01:23:36):
we built a community of peoplethat were going to have good,
sober, social fun and we weregoing to grab life by the horns.
We have self-help groupsthroughout the week.
We're going to do wellnessrecovery action plans for
everybody and built a community,and it started literally with
like six people at our kitchentable and has grown massive.
We have multiple locationsright now with the nonprofit.

(01:23:59):
This is today, today.
Okay.
So how many locations do youhave?
So we have multiple locationsright now with the nonprofit.
This is today, today.
Okay, so how many locations doyou have?
So we have three locations forthe nonprofit and four sober
livings underneath that.
So you've been sober for howmany years?

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
now 13 years, 13 years.
That episode that I saw waswhat?
2013?
Yeah, right, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:24:20):
So 11 years 12 years ago.
So Sober, at that point Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:24:24):
All right, so you were three years sober when it
fell.
Okay, so the dates line up.

Speaker 2 (01:24:27):
Okay.
How many people have you helped.
I know from a data standpoint.
On average we help about youknow 20,000 families, because
help is very.

Speaker 1 (01:24:39):
Thousand families.

Speaker 2 (01:24:41):
Yeah, it gets over yes.
Because we help them in manydifferent levels.

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
I'll give you the single clap.
That's mothers, fathers,children, mm-hmm, spouses,
friends.
20,000 people have foundsobriety through you, okay so
our program?

Speaker 2 (01:25:00):
because so we do.
You know, individual sports arealways important to me and I
really attribute that to I havea really good way of honing in
on chaos.
Okay, I, you know, when you'reriding a dirt bike, racing a car

(01:25:22):
, skiing downhill, doing theseextreme sports, a lot of people
aren't good at them because theytry to control what they're
doing and to really go fast, toreally be able to conquer that
sport, in a way, is you have tolet go, you have to let go of
the fear, you have to let go.
You have to let go of the fearyou have to let go of that.

(01:25:43):
You're not actually controllinganything, you're just guiding
it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:45):
So the fear, uncertainty and doubt which I
speak of often, the FUD factor,holds a lot of people back from
business success or life successright as an adult.
Our adult brain has more fearthan a child brain.
That's why children can learnactivities like skateboarding
right or riding a bike a loteasier than an adult Correct.
So they just, they let go andthey just trust the environment.

(01:26:08):
So yeah.
Yes, experience has its fearconsequences.
So you're, you're deep, you'redeprogramming that fear, that
FUD in the people you're helping.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
Okay programming that fear, that FUD in the people
you're helping.
Okay, so I tapped into a lot ofthis in my recovery, Knowing
what that feeling feels like ofletting go and being able to let
the motorcycle do its thing andjust guide it to where it needs
to go, not fear the you knowobstacle in your way that it
will make it over, and that kindof like recovery.
You got to let go and let it,let it do its thing and, um,

(01:26:44):
that's a lot of our programming.
So we push people like I justgot.
I just took everybody skiing umtwo weeks ago and, uh, you know
, they never skied before, theynever had that experience.
The more experience thatsomeone gets in a positive light
right, they build moreconnection that plugs them into
life.
The opposite of addiction isconnection.

Speaker 1 (01:27:04):
So the opposite of addiction is connection.

Speaker 2 (01:27:07):
Yes, well, what does our addiction try to do?
It tries to take you away fromeverything you plug into life.
So in order to fight that orcounteract it, I plug you back
in.
So the more experience that Icould give you, more
opportunities that I can put infront of you.
It's your responsibility totake that commitment and action,
to take a hold of thatopportunity.

(01:27:28):
But that's what we do.
We provide you withopportunities to have positive
experiences, to do somethingthat you've never done, to learn
how to challenge yourself, andnot necessarily conquer it, but
just try it and to see how itfits you, because that's how you
discover yourself.
I mean, life is really aboutdiscovering yourself.
Every time we're comfy, we stopgrowing.

(01:27:51):
Only in uncomfortability do wegrow.
So is this a business?
This is purely a non-profit.
Oh non-profits are businesses.
It's a business.
It was never.

Speaker 1 (01:28:04):
I never made a dime, so you didn't make any money, no
, so how do you make money today?

Speaker 2 (01:28:08):
So so, we, through this helping people, what we
were discovering is that, youknow, the treatment centers
industry is failing.
It's really built on peoplecoming back in through those
doors, so they want you to comeback Right.
And I'm finding that at ournonprofit we're doing work that
counselors should be doing andwe don't really have the proper

(01:28:32):
set up to do that, nor can Iever find enough funding to get
this done the proper way, andthen I feel like I'm doing a
disservice to people.
So I started wanting to open upmy own treatment center to
basically fill in these gaps,and so we started this journey
of trying to open up our ownplace, probably in 2014.

(01:28:55):
It took me a while to findsomeone to invest in a
24-year-old man who just hadaddiction issues and just has
these big dreams.
And I did find those people.
My mom and I found them andthey literally gave me a million
dollars without even operatingagreement and said make it

(01:29:18):
happen.
And that was 2015.
I got.
I started with two sober livingsand started the licensing
process for the treatment center.
We all go.
I had rose colored glasses.
That's probably the biggestthing that I've always dealt
with.
I'm a very optimistic person,that mindset of if I just go

(01:29:41):
through this, I'm going to getto the other side.
Um, I don't really.
I believe in planning, but Ibelieve not over planning,
because you could get into thereeds of just giving yourself
anxiety over something ratherthan just jumping in and doing.
Um, and I learned that from mymom mostly and uh, so we just
jumped head first into and Ithought you know, hey, you're

(01:30:04):
going to get this license.
You just have to do this pieceof paper and, like you, fill it
out, they give you your licenseand it's not that process
whatsoever.
Um, business is hard, not.
Profit is still a business, yes, but but not just from the
license, not just from astructured business standpoint,
but you're fighting society atthe same time, because just
finding a place for my treatmentcenter took four years, because

(01:30:28):
it's not in my backyard, I'mnot going to have those people
here, and I had to go throughfour years of fighting with
different towns to even find abuilding that they would allow
me to open them.
Then the licensing processhappened.
Submitting my application towhen I actually got a license
took about 26 months and it'snot my fault, it's just the way

(01:30:48):
our state works and I literallythe hippie in me came in and I
literally had to chain myself toa bench at the Department of
Health and the chef from therooftop was like there's people
dying here, we need beds.
And like you're just notanswering my emails.
Like this is ridiculous.
Like I have everything in order.

(01:31:09):
I have a building.
I built out the building atthis point.
I'm paying for that overhead.
I have to have all these peopleon staff.
You know, I was scared becausewe blew through that million.
We, you know I was.
I was scared because we blewthrough that million.
We blew through another 400,000and I needed to come up with
more money for operating.
When we opened and um we, uh,they gave me my license about

(01:31:31):
like five days from me trainingmyself because when I was there,
someone overdosed in thebathroom at the department of
health and and I said and I hadit on film on Facebook Live and
I was just like literallythere's people dying in your
building right now and you can'teven answer your phone for me
to help them.
And yeah, obviously probablypissed some people off, but you

(01:31:54):
know, I've always been a fighterin that way, an advocate, and I
will continue to be the plowand create change.
Sometimes it causes someobstacles in my life with
business, because there's a lotof people that don't want to
mess with me because I'm theloud guy in the room that, so
that's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:32:14):
So this is.
I mean, I took a hike as abusiness inspired, right, it's a
passion and I like to tiethings to business and that's
why your story is a successfuljourney.
Clearly, you have endured farmore than many people in this
life.
Right, you've been through itall and now you are running a

(01:32:34):
successful business and you'relearning the lessons that every
business owner will learn.
It ain't easy Not at all.
You've got to fight for whatyou think is right.
You have to fight for, in yourcase, permits and the ability to
conduct business.
You have to fight for yourfirst client.
You have to fight foreverything.
You have to raise capital.
You've done that all.
So what are your biggestlearning lessons in running a
business?

Speaker 2 (01:32:57):
The biggest lessons is keeping myself is not losing
my authentic self in thebusiness Because, um, being in
the human services, you got todie Like I.
I like working in the trenches.
Yeah, I, I, I like working inthe trenches.
I'm empathetic.
You want to do everything, um,but balance doesn't balancing

(01:33:21):
that with business.
Business doesn't always allowthat to take place.
So finding that balance is keyLearning how to move and
navigate in a complicated way ofkeeping the doors open and
making profit and paying allyour employees, but doing right
by every single person thatcomes in your door.
It's a very hard balance.

(01:33:45):
I came from the nonprofit worldthat we make a dollar and give
it away In business.
I can't do that.
There's way more overhead atthese treatment centers than the
nonprofit.
You're the CEO of a business,correct, so learning how to keep
my sense of self and notgetting the reads because it
gets chaotic.
You know you're dealing with hr.
You're dealing with investorsthat want their money.

(01:34:05):
You're dealing with, um, justregulation from the government
and things different happeningand insurances that don't want
to pay you and all this kind ofstuff.
So you could get so lost in allthose fights and lose what the
real meaning of what you'redoing, and that would be like
the death of me if that was thecase.
So the biggest lessons I had todo was learn how to balance

(01:34:28):
those two things.
I'm a really good mediator.
I'm a really good person to bein the middle.
I'm very calm, I'm very patient, I don't lose my head, I don't
get emotional with decisions.
I'm able to take pause.
That's probably one of mygreatest attributes.

Speaker 1 (01:34:43):
So, being steadfast, sticking with your morals, your
ethics, focused on never loseyourself.
Where can we find you?
Um, yeah, because there.
There are definitely listenershere that they've reflected
through this whole journey ofyours.
They they could either align orthey're equally as in shock as
I was in moments.
You know, they know somebodythat needs help.

(01:35:06):
They know someone in thetrenches.

Speaker 2 (01:35:06):
That that has suffered yes, immensely.

Speaker 1 (01:35:08):
How can they get to you?

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):
there's multiple pathways to me, um, but
healingusorg is our website forour non-profit, where you know
we'll help no matter what, whatthe case is, and find you a
resource that you need.
If you're a family member andjust needs to talk to somebody,
give us a call.
There's someone there to helpyou.
If you're someone that'slooking for recovery you need to

(01:35:29):
get detoxed, need mental healthhelp, whatever it may be that
you're dealing with there'ssomeone there to help guide you
through that.
So you don't have to call thenumber on the 1-800 number on
the back of your card and figureit out for yourself.
You can talk to people thathave experienced it and have
been there moms and and you knowpeers alike.
You know it's, it's been abeautiful journey and I keep the

(01:35:53):
mindset of one life at a timeand you know the byproduct of
that has been success inmultiple facets.

Speaker 1 (01:36:02):
When you were injecting your almost final dose
1.5 grams of meth into your arm, did you love life?

Speaker 2 (01:36:10):
No, not at all.

Speaker 1 (01:36:12):
Today do you love life.

Speaker 2 (01:36:14):
Absolutely absolutely .

Speaker 1 (01:36:16):
And you right.
There are proof that even yourbiggest junkie, the person that
you walk by on the street anddismiss, they're a life.
They have value 100%.
Someone just needs to be thereto save them.
Someone needs, they just needthat opportunity.
Dude, you are an inspiration.
Thanks, man.
This is a very differentepisode than we normally
recorded Season finale.

(01:36:36):
I am proud to have hiked withyou.
I am proud of you.
Your journey, you have facedsomething that hell true hell.
I'm back.
You now run a thriving business.
You're making money, you'reprofitable.

Speaker 2 (01:36:49):
Yeah, we.
I mean that one treatmentcenter is now growing into three
, which by the end of next yearwill be four or five.

Speaker 1 (01:36:56):
You found a positive addiction, which is business,
and business is life right.

Speaker 2 (01:37:02):
And I found my wife, my life partner.
She's my best friend.
She comes from a world of chaostoo.
She's not in recovery, butshe's a child of the system.
She was taken away from herparents, and I wouldn't be who I
am if I didn't have the familythat's next to me.
I didn't do this myself.

Speaker 1 (01:37:21):
I have been talking and hiking alongside someone
that should not be here.
For all intents and purposes,you were.
There's some people in thisworld that are just meant for
something better.
They have a purpose right, weall have a purpose and it's up
to us to find it.
But there are some people that,just chance after chance, like
a nine live cat and you are that, chance after chance, you were

(01:37:42):
put here to save others.
Clearly, you punched an officerin the nose, you got tased, you
got arrested, you had drugdeals written on a piece of
paper, you've been an informant,you've met with cartels, you
have almost injected yourself todeath, yet every time there

(01:38:03):
happened to be the right personor the right instance that saved
you to now the person you aretoday.
Do not ever go back, becauseyou are needed.
So thank you for that, and withthat, we are at the end of the
trail.
Our season three journey hasreached its conclusion, and with
that, we are at the end of thetrail.
Our season three journey hasreached its conclusion, filled

(01:38:24):
with inspiring and remarkableachievers.
A heartfelt thank you to all ofyou, wonderful listeners, for
trekking alongside us.
Now it is time for us to rest,regroup and recharge for season
four of I Took a Hike, withdetails to follow soon.
In the meantime, stay tuned forbonus episodes and additional
content to enhance yourlistening and hiking experiences
.
We are immensely grateful foreveryone who has joined us along

(01:38:48):
this incredible adventure,sharing in the joy of
inspirational accomplishmentsfor your auditory delight.
For those not already followingus, connect with Darren Hikes
on Instagram and I Took a Hikepodcast on YouTube.
Find us on LinkedIn as wellunder I Took a Hike.
Keep those adventurous guestrecommendations coming along

(01:39:09):
with relevant sponsorships.
Let's continue to pursue,thrive and explore this journey
together Until we reunite on thetrail, signing off with
anticipation for our return.
See you soon.

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Daniel Regan - To Hell & Back With Purpose

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Daniel Regan - To Hell & Back With Purpose