Building Trusted Partner Relationships and Creating Raving Fans with Craig Zimmerman and Jason Makevich

Episode Transcript
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Anthony Carrano (00:05):
Welcome to
the IAMCP Profiles andPartnership. The podcast that
showcases how Microsoft partnersand IAMCP members boost their
business by collaborating withother members and partners. I'm
your co host, Anthony Carano.And in each episode, I'll be
talking to some of the mostinnovative and successful
partners in the Microsoftecosystem. The International

(00:26):
Association of Microsoft ChannelPartners, otherwise known as
IAMCP, is a community ofMicrosoft partners who help each
other grow and thrive.
Members can find and connectwith other partners locally and
globally and access exclusiveresources and opportunities.
Whether you're looking for newcustomers, new markets, or new
solutions, IAMCP can help youachieve your goals. We'll hear

(00:48):
their stories, learn from theirexperiences, and discover the
best practices and strategiesthey use to increase customer
loyalty and grow revenues.Whether you're a new partner or
an established one, you'll findvaluable insights and
inspiration in this podcast. Wehope you enjoy this podcast and
find it useful and inspiring.
If you do, please subscribe,rate, and review us on your

(01:09):
favorite podcast platform. Anddon't forget to follow us on
social media and connect with uson our website,
www.profilesinpartnership.com,where you can find more
information, resources, andopportunities to partner for
success. Thank you forlistening, and now let's get
started with today's episode.Before we dive into our

(01:29):
interview, let me ask you aquestion. How do you leverage
your membership in the IMCP tofind and develop partner
relationships that will help yougrow your business?
Finding the right partner can bechallenging, but it can also be
rewarding. In fact, according toa recent study by IDC, Microsoft
partners who collaborate withother partners generate almost 2
and a half times more revenuegrowth than those who don't.

(01:52):
That's a huge difference, and itshows the power of partnering.
So how do you nurture and buildtrust relationships that will
help you grow your business? Andhow do you ensure success for
your customer and yourrespective businesses?
These are some of the questionswe'll explore in this podcast
with the help of our guests,recent global and America's P2P
award winners who are alsoexperts in partnering. They'll

(02:13):
share their stories, challenges,and successes, and give you
practical tips and advice on howto partner for
success. Are you ready to joinus on this journey? Then stay
tuned because we have a greatshow for you today. Our guests
are award winning Microsoftpartners, Craig Zimmerman, the
chief operating officer at BigCloud Consultants, and Jason
Makevich, the CEO at GreenlightCyber.

(02:35):
Let's hear what they have tosay. Well, I wanna welcome Craig
and Jason, to the podcast today.Really appreciate you guys
joining us. So let's start off.Craig, why don't you start off
and tell us a little bit aboutyourself?

Craig Zimmerman (02:50):
Sure. So I live in Asheville, North Carolina
where our company is based. CEOCOO of Big Cloud Consultants.
And we're a Microsoft 365partner as most IAMCP members
are. And we are, you know, wespecialize in partner to partner
relationships.
And that's kinda how we got heretoday.

Excellent. And then how long have you been with
Big Cloud Consultants?

Since the beginning. 8 years.

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah.
Okay. And, Jason, how aboutyourself?

Jason Makevich (03:22):
Yeah. Thanks for having me. Jason Makevich here.
So, yeah, I'm the founder andCEO of Green Light, here in
Southern California. Born andraised.
Started the company in 2010 as aMSP back when MSPs were kinda
just starting off in the SMBspace. Been a Microsoft partner,
you know, this whole time, andmade a transition, to to be an

(03:45):
MSSP over the last, few years.So, it's been it's been a great
journey, and and we love ourpartnerships. Love love being
part of this program with IAMCP,and, I'm excited to talk to you
guys today about the successeswe've had with with Big Cloud.

When did you guys both join IAMCP?

I'm gonna say 2018.

Yeah. I think it was 2019. Yeah.

Okay.

About a year before we all ran home.

Let's not talk about that.

Wanna congratulate you guys both on
winning the IAMCP P2P SolutionProvider Award. And I know
Rudy's gonna get into and, youknow, ask you some questions
about that story. Before I do,what are some of the company's
areas of specialization?

So we specialize in SharePoint. That
is really our bread and butter.Right? So we have and that's
where partnering has workedreally well for us, honestly,
because because it's such aspecialty, we've had other
companies who where it's nottheir specialty come to us and
say, hey. We've been working onthis.
We can't do it. We need help.And we're able to accomplish it
in you know, what they've beenworking on for weeks, we can

(04:53):
accomplish in a couple hoursbecause that's our expertise. So
we do other things, Teamsphones, and things like that,
but SharePoint is definitelybread and butter for us.

Yeah. I can attest to that. We we work with
Big Cloud all the time. When andwhenever we need anything,
SharePoint and Teams phones, andanything kinda in that whole
ecosystem. And they're just,they're absolutely one of our
best favorite partners, for it.
They're really, really good atthat stuff. And then for us,
really, cybersecurity,especially for the SMB market,

(05:26):
making cybersecurity reasonablefor SMBs. And, you know, being a
Microsoft partner and havingcome from the MSP world, the
talent that we have on the teamallows us to bridge a lot of
gaps. Right? So not onlyinternally do we have that
capability of doing a lot of thekinda IT related functions that

(05:49):
might be adjacent tocybersecurity, but the partner
network that we've built overthe years is, is maybe, our our
our most important, asset,because, partners like the big
cloud, and we have many othersthat are just, truly outstanding
at what they do.
No one is good as Big Cloud, ofcourse, but, but,

And that's why we love Jason. Yeah. Thank you.

But but yeah. I mean, gosh. Our partner network
is has been a real key to oursuccess here.

And I'll just follow that up by saying part of
at least part of ourrelationship is if there's
something that we don't do andI'm not sure if Greenlight will
do it, I'll reach out to Jasonand go, hey. I have this
opportunity. Is this somethingyou can help with? And it's
those types of partnershipswhere you have someone to go to
1st, I think, to at least askthat question that make a huge

(06:44):
difference. I have no problemcalling Jason or anyone on his
staff and asking, hey.
Here's the opportunity. Can youhelp? And we get that back from
them all the time.

If I Rudy, if I can jump in with this one, I
want to piggyback. There's whatI find fascinating about this
story is I mean, obviously, BigCloud is, you know, based in,
you know, North Carolina.Greenlight is, you know, based
in California. Obviously, I knowGreenlight started as as an MSP,
and usually you know, typically,a lot of MSPs will work more

(07:13):
regionally. How did you guysconnect, you know, across coast
and working with andcollaborating with these with
customers?

So it's actually a funny story that
Jason and I just realized againa couple weeks ago, which was we
actually met through a thirdperson who we had both been
looking for a different partner,and we found someone else. And
he actually connected Jason andI and said, hey. It'd be good if
you guys met. And the funnything is he is now totally out

(07:43):
of this business and haven'theard from him in ages. But
Jason and I not only struck outa great partnership, what turned
out to be a great friendship.

Yeah. And and that's the thing. I mean, Craig
touched on it. Like, you know,he'll reach out if he's not sure
if it's something we do, andthen that can lead to well, you
know what? Actually, we don't dothat, but we have someone great
that does.
And that's happened many timesas well. Right? So it's just
having that culture in anorganization to be really open
to working with other folks andhaving a circle of folks you

(08:13):
trust. The relationships thatthat we have are everything.
Right?
But, yeah, the way we met waswas really in this, in that same
spirit of, you know, we're we'reconnecting with people. I'm
always very open to connect withpeople. So when this, third
party said, hey. You should meetthis guy, jump at it. Right?
And, you never know. In thiscase, it worked out beautifully.

And I think we we found we work the same way,
and we treat clients the sameway. And what what's even
funnier to your question,Anthony, is, you know, we're
across the country from eachother. How did we meet? Our
joint client that we won thisaward for is actually in neither
of our states. They're inGeorgia.
Ah. And so you know? And I thinkthe first time Jason and I met

(08:57):
in person was when we went tothe client.

Oh, wow. Yep. Yeah. I mean, Craig and I both,
our companies, we we haveclients all across the country.
We have a few we just we justgot a client in Japan of all
places.
But, yeah, I mean, especially onthe security side, you know, the
local kinda regional thing isnot is not something that that's
important because the on-sitenecessity is very rare if if if

(09:25):
we ever need to do that. Nowwith Teams and Zoom and
everything else, there's so manyways to to work. And, of course,
with with Craig and his companybeing in SharePoint, I mean, you
know, everything we do is in thecloud now, and, so we're not
we're not tied to a a regionlike most MSPs are because of

(09:46):
the field service they need to,perform.

Rudy Rodriguez (09:50):
It's great to hear how you guys met. And, you
know, you didn't meet to eachother till you met at the
client. So in getting startedwith this story, why don't you
why don't you tell us a littlebit about the client? You don't
have to give us a name. Maybe alittle bit about the size of the
company, the industry, techimplementation, what challenges
that we're facing, and how youcame about to selecting each

(10:12):
other to to work on this deal.

Sure. So the clients in Atlanta, they had
actually called us a coupleyears ago about something that
we don't do. It was they calledus for Dynamics, and we found
the right Dynamics partner tobring in. And we kept the
client, and they've been veryhappy with the Dynamics end. And
they got to the point where wehad been talking to them about

(10:38):
taking over their licenses andmanaging that and as their CSP,
But their current MSP was justnot doing a good job for them.
And I think that puts it mildly.I mean, they held them ransom
for stuff. It was not a goodrelationship. And so as they
told me more about that, I kepttelling them, no. You need to
bring in someone else becausethis is not the way it should

(11:00):
be.
And, when they finally agreed, Ihad introduced them to Jason
probably a year before

Mhmm.

We actually did something and didn't go
anyplace. And then I kepttalking to them, and finally,
they said, okay. We're ready tomake the change. And so we
brought Jason back in becausethat was part of the
relationship we had and how wework together. And so and we're
very careful, I think, and Iwanna mention this, not to step
on each other's toes.
So there's stuff that Jason doesthat we do. There's stuff like

(11:30):
he can manage their licenseslike we can. We could do some of
the security stuff, but wedon't. And it's like, okay. This
is our lane.
This is your lane. This is whythe partnership works because we
stay in our lanes for thisclient. Right? The client
probably has, what, 200 seats,maybe? 2, 300 seats?

Yeah. Yeah. And it does fluctuate. It's an
interesting business model wherethey have these seasonal
workers. So the sometimes aclient has, I don't know, a 100,
a 150.
Sometimes they have, like, 350

or so. You know? And sometimes they have
30. Offseason, they have 30.

Yeah. That's true.

And, honestly, part of the way we got to manage
their licenses was they had saidto us, listen. We need you guys
to adjust them. We don't adjustlicenses. So we need you guys to
provide a report, and differentpeople get different reports.
That was part of earning theirbusiness.
But I think when when we gotthere with Jason, the great news
was they needed a lot more stuffthan they thought. Right? So

(12:29):
there was a huge hardwareinvestment. The interesting
thing about that was Jason toldI was there for the meeting
where Jason told them, and andthey were skeptical at first,
not about the need, but justabout understanding why they
need to replace all thishardware and what was going on.
And I think both of us beingthere gave them that security

(12:50):
feeling of because I had workedwith them for a couple years,
and the first thing the managerdid was look at me.
And I went, no. Whatever he'stelling you is what you need to
do. And now I think we both havethat relationship with the
client.

And they're so much better off. I mean, Craig,
there's no overstating how badthings were for them. They had
data loss that they hadexperienced.

Couldn't get their passwords.

You couldn't get passwords. Wow. And then when I
get out there, I flew out there.And the incoming IT company
wouldn't give the client theirpasswords, which anyone in IT
knows that, like, no matter thesituation, you can't do that.

(13:35):
It's their property.
And that's in a world a world ofhurt. But, of course, I fly out
there and it looks it's startingto look like there's nothing I'm
gonna be able to do. You know?So I was looking at flights
home, but we were able to workthings out very diplomatically,
well, somewhat, you know, asmuch as we could. In

For cash. I mean, let's be honest. The the
old It was the old MSP held themup for money. Yes.

Wow.

Which both of us were were so incensed at just
because that's not how we dobusiness.

Yeah. But I I actually served as kind of a
mediator, for that deal and andand, you know, helped make that
happen so that we could, youknow, start working on things.
And to Craig's point, we get inthere, we start looking at
everything, and then it's suchbad shape. Their equipment's so
old. And, yeah, it was kindalike, alright.

(14:33):
Well, we have a couple options.We can run this stuff more into
the ground than it already is,but you're gonna spend so much
every month. You're gonna have alot of problems. Or we can redo
things here. We can do it right.
And this is a real investment inyour business. And and it worked
out. It worked out. And they'reso much better off. They're

(14:55):
they're raving fans of both ofus.
They love us. Right. Nice. Andthey might and they're not the
easiest client.

No. They're they're tough. But you know
what? They're tough, but theyare I I don't wanna say tough,
but fair. They're I mean, theyare, but they're tough with high
expectations, which I think isgood.
It's good for both our companiesbecause we want to meet their
expectations or exceed them.Mhmm. So I think it actually is
good for us.

I like those clients. I like the ones that
have high expectations, becausethat's how we operate here. And
I don't I I like them a lot morethan the clients that don't
really care about it. They don'twanna talk about it. They don't
wanna think about it.
Those ones are harder because,you know, if if our job is to go

(15:42):
and and help them, and theytheir job is to bury their heads
in the sand, you know, how doyou even have a conversation? So
many of those out there, right,in the SMB space. So, yeah, this
is a good client.

And it
took some convincing. I mean,there's no you know, it took and
I don't mean convincing from thesales side. It took convincing
as to, okay, first, I need to becomfortable with you, and then
Mhmm. I need to fully understandwhy this is an issue. Mhmm.

And our okay. So speaking of partnerships,
there's no way I could've goneflip flown into Atlanta, and in
day 2 or 3, said, hey. You guysneed to spend 6 digits on
equipment. There there's no waythey wouldn't have probably ran
me out of that building with ashotgun. But because of the

(16:32):
relationship they already hadwith my partner, with Craig,
that made a world of difference.
So it's not just the conveniencefactor of, oh, we get more
opportunities or anything. No.That that that carried so much
weight. And Craig's right. Wewere we were both there when I
when I, you know, had to tellthem, hey, you guys are kinda in

(16:52):
for it here.
And they looked right at himright when I hit right when I
told him that. So you know thekind of trust that that they
have in Craig and Craig'sbusiness, which says a lot about
Craig and and Big Cloud. Butit's also it's a huge benefit to
me because it helped metremendously. Having this

(17:13):
partnership, it it it allowed meto do my job much more
effectively because then, youknow, otherwise, yeah, the
client might have been like,okay. No.
No. No. You just flew in here.Now you're telling us we have
spent all this extra money. Howconvenient.
Get the heck out of here. Right?But that wasn't the case, and it
was, I think, very much becauseof the partnership that Craig

(17:33):
and I have.

Well, Jason, I'm glad you bring that up
because one of the things, justas I've been listening to this
story, that's really fantastic.And I wanted to ask this
specifically for Craig, isbecause, you know, there was you
you mentioned where, you know,the the client had asked you
about, like, for a Dynamicspartner, and then, you know,
they get stuck. They need helpwith an MSP. What did you like,

(17:55):
how did you develop the trustrelationship with the client
that they were willing to relyon you for, like, the different
vendors and seek you out reallyas a as a trusted adviser to you
know, for things outside of yourarea of expertise?

That is a great question. I think, you know,
when they originally came to us,I think what we have found more
and more over the years is yousay Microsoft partner, and
people think you can doeverything. Right? It doesn't
matter to them. Dynamics,SharePoint, it's all part of
Microsoft.
They don't know. We're and we'rein this industry, so we deal
with this every day. Right? Butlike Copilot, very exciting for

(18:35):
us, not as exciting for theclients. Right?
They're interested, but it's notlike it was for us. Right? So I
think this is the same thing.Right? It's very,
it's it's very how can we getthe client what they need and
still keep the rest of theirbusiness? Because I think, you

(18:56):
know, you don't wanna refer itout for everything Mhmm. And
just turn it over to someoneelse because I still want the
licensing. The licensing is abig part of this. So and I still
want that relationship.

You do wanna refer it out because if you
don't, they might go they mighthave to go to market. And now
who are they talking to? Right?So to protect your own interest
in what you have there, yougotta have a partner network.
You gotta know, okay, who's onspeed out who can help me here.
And you just gotta have thatmindset of having those
relationships and and being veryopen, to those and and really

(19:31):
cultivating them too. It's notjust there for your convenience.
I mean, it's a relationshipthat, like anything, kinda
require that effort and and areworth it. You know?

And I
think that's the thing. We justwanna do the best we can for the
client. Right? We wanna makesure that the client has what
they need Mhmm. In the end.
And my feeling always is if itdoesn't get us business today,
it will in the future. If you dothe right thing, they'll be
back. And so in the case ofDynamics and what's really funny
as I'm thinking about it is the3rd party that introduced Jason

(20:01):
and I, he's the one I called onfor this project originally, for
the Dynamics part of it. Thatwas a disaster, and so we wound
up finding another company. But,you know, the client after a
little while and I it wasn't abig secret.
I mean, we said we're bringingin this partner. One of the
things that I try and make sureto do is I don't want the

(20:21):
client, if they went to thepartner directly, to pay less.
So whatever I work out with thepartner, I try and make it so
that, okay, the client is gonnapay us slightly less than they
may pay you directly, and we allget some kind of piece of that.
But in that, we're all makingsome money. Right?
And then the client never feelslike if they call you directly,

(20:42):
they're getting a better deal.So we worked that out with the
Dynamics provider. That workedgreat. And then as time went on
and they went from littledynamic stuff to, okay, now we
wanna we wanna roll out fieldservice. And I said, well, I'll
find a partner for that.
And they were like, that's fine.Because in the end, the client
said to me, and he has said thismore than once, we want one neck

(21:04):
to ring, and it's yours.

Yeah.

But I totally get it. It's like they just
wanna call one place and go,alright. How do I do this? So
even when they onboard newusers, they they send them to
us. There's a piece that wecontact Greenlight for.
Right? We've automated it. SoGreenlight gets an email in
their ticketing system, whateverthey need to do that piece, But
then it's all done. The client'sjust dealing with 1 person,

(21:29):
right, and one company. Andwhatever they need, it's getting
accomplished.

Yeah. So I've got a I've got a follow-up
question here. Because both ofyou have mentioned that
partnering is a big component ofeach other's business. So, you
know and you've mentioned, youknow, you build trust
relationships with each of yourclients, etcetera. So what's
your criteria for selecting apartner?
And then how do you go about it?Do you discuss, have you ever

(21:54):
had it sat down with a partnerand discuss the rules of
engagement? Because that'salways a key part of building a
good trust relationship with apartner. Do you do that in in
your engagements when you'retrying to select a partner? How
do how do you, what's yourprocess look like?

I mean, I can speak to it first. I don't think
I have a SOP for it. I think itdoes kinda vary, but I think
it's a couple things that'lldrive that. Right? So one is,
hey.
I need a SharePoint partner.Would my client needs help with
SharePoint? The way I would goabout finding that, if if I

(22:31):
didn't already know Big Cloud,is I would reach out to a couple
of folks in that space that Ithat I trust, that I know that I
like and that I trust. Right?I'm not gonna Google it.
I'm not going on any sort ofmarketplace to look for anybody.
I'm gonna reach out to the folksI trust, and that trust
transfers. Not a 100% of it, buta great deal of it. Right? So if

(22:55):
I I don't know.
If I need help with Dynamics, Imight call Craig Craig, you
know, who do you have this thatI can trust for for dynamics for
this project? And if Craig says,oh, you gotta work with so and
so, they've been outstanding.Now I trust that person. You
know? And then it's like, okay.
Then we engage. Right? Then ityeah. At some point, there would
be some rules of engagement. ButI think a lot of it is, at least

(23:19):
for Craig and I understood.
Right? Like, Craig brought meinto this one opportunity. Craig
said, hey. We're doing theirlicensing. We're doing
SharePoint.
We're doing their their cloudstuff, and we need your help on
on kinda all these things. Andso that's enough for us. Right?
We've it's right in our system.It's documented in our system.

(23:42):
So my whole team is aware thatthis is these are the lanes
we're in for this client. Andit's it's Craig's it was Craig's
opportunity, so we would deferto him on what, you know, what
he wants us to do. And thishappens a lot with our partners
because we get a lot of partnersthat bring us in much more than

(24:02):
the other way around. And so wewe always make sure it's very
clear, but, I don't I don't knowthat we have a a real defined
process because I think each onehas its own unique qualities,
each relationship.

So how much does IAMCP play in your build in your
P2P relationships?

Yeah. I mean, I would say I agree with Jason
before about the standardoperating procedure, and there
is no there is no one forfinding a partner. Right? There
is no one right way. But the thething that I do in addition to
calling people I know is I willlook at the IAMCP member list to
see and look for companies thatI need.
Because my first inclination isthe people in the IAMCP operate

(24:47):
the same way that we do and havethe same code of ethics. And
they wanna remain there, andthey're not going to they're
gonna do they're gonna work thesame way. Right? They're they're
not gonna steal our part of thebusiness, and I'm not gonna
steal their part of thebusiness. And I say this all the
time when we work with partners.
You can only screw a partneronce. Right? You can only steal
business once. That gets aroundvery quickly. It's not a good

(25:09):
reputation.
It's not and that's what wehave. And so we just don't do
that. I mean, I honestly, wehave a partner who we did a
whole bunch of work for them. Wedidn't get paid. I'm 90% sure
they got paid by the client.
And if not, and they didn't billthe client, that's on them.
Right? But I hate having to goafter people for that, but they
owe us a chunk of money. Thefirst thing I did was look to

(25:31):
see the

checks in the mail. I

They stated as a state check. That works too.

Yeah. You know, we can just ACH now. That's
good. It's the one. But, no, Ithink the the point is that the
first thing I did after that waslook in our IAMCP member list to
make sure they weren't an IAMCPmember because we got screwed.
I don't wanna do that. And thosearen't the those aren't the
people that I want to be part ofthe organization that I really

(26:01):
enjoy being a part of because Iwanna know that the people on
the list work the way we do.

So I know there's there was a phrase. I'm
gonna start with you, Jason,because you you used the phrase
a couple of times, and I gotreally turned on to this concept
early in my business career. Youused the phrase raving fans.
Right? Mhmm.
Or turn them, excuse me, declineinto a raving fan. And so,
obviously, you guys shared alittle bit about the, you know,
the the challenge that I mean,just the horrific situation that

(26:29):
customer was in. And what aresome maybe if you don't wanna
answer, like, the details, youyou can answer 1 of 2 ways.
Either what are some things youspecifically took to take that
client who was in a really, youknow, difficult situation, and
you mentioned that they weresomewhat of a challenge to work
with and turn them into a ravingfan, or or if you'd say, I

(26:51):
wanna, you know, maybe talk moreabstract, and what are some,
some general, steps and tipsthat you would give to folks
listening, what they can do ifthey were in a similar
situation?

Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll start by by saying,
you know, in the case of of thisof this client, you know, Craig
touched on the fact that the theprior IT company didn't have a
good relationship with them. Andso and they were held hostage. I
mean, when it comes to, youknow, getting their passwords,
and, that there was data lossthat that occurred that the IT

(27:26):
company really, I think, was acause of, not just out of
negligence, but, well, I don'tknow. But, nonetheless, it was
horrible.
Right? And and so these thesepeople were were just beyond
frustrated. And I don't thinkthey knew to what extent,
honestly.
Yeah. It was a lot of, it was alot of secrecy around, you know,

(27:47):
on that. It was just it wasvery, you know It was bad.

Yeah. And just for the record, that other MSP
was not an IAMCP member. Right?

Correct.

Okay. Good. Yep.

Yep. Yep. So the most important thing for me was
understanding what the clientwas going through and
understanding what that meant tothem. If I don't understand how
my client is feeling and whattheir motivations are, I'm gonna

(28:18):
be at best mediocre at my job.Right?
And I've seen this time and timeagain with service providers
where they focus so much ontheir features and their
products and their solutions.And it's like, hey, this is how
we do it, and we're gonna do it,and trust us, and it's fine. And
that's not how we operate. Idon't think you have a whole lot

(28:40):
of raving fans if it's veryone-sided of a relationship. I
think what's better is to get toknow the clients to really to
really understand what whattheir experiences, what their
motivations are, and whatreally, what's important to
them.
And if we can solve for thosethings and and make them feel
better about how things are andand just more comfortable with

(29:02):
it and trust, you know, trustus, and and all that. And you
earn that, and it takes time.You know? They weren't raving
fans day 1 with us, but theythey gave us the opportunity to
earn that trust. And and, yeah,they they love our our team, and
they love the leadership we havehere because we're very open.

(29:22):
We we like to, you know, sharewith them what's going on, but
not too much. Just we knowthey're very busy. So we we
cater it to them. We have someclients that wanna get a ton of
information every month, andthey get a bunch of reports. We
have some clients that wouldnever wanna see that stuff.
And and it's like pulling teethto get a meeting. Right? And you

(29:43):
gotta know what's important toeach client. And and to a
degree, you do have to forcecertain things because we're in
the business of of, you know,managing and mitigating risk.
Right?
Mhmm. Pretty important way ofconversations. But at the same
time, some folks really wannatalk forever. Some folks have a
want it super short and sweet.Some want a in person meeting

(30:03):
somewhat over Zoom.
Some just want a phone call andsome would rather have an email.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Understanding each client and then catering to
them, and that's what we do.That's what we focus on here is
even in our solution delivery,we don't have just some package
solution.
And we have no we have no 2clients the same. We have we're
we don't have 2 clients thathave the same products or, you

(30:30):
know, services. Everything we dois is very bespoke. And it's
very much against the kind ofbest practices of an MSP, but
that's fine because, you know,as an MSSP in in the world we're
in, we need to be able to bevery flexible with, but still
have our our our standards andand our best practices and the

(30:52):
frameworks and all that. But itreally is just about listening
to the client and really payingattention to be very in tune to
what's really, really importantto them and making sure you're
solving for that.

Mhmm. Now I know the the client because you
mentioned previously that, youknow, they were, you know,
obviously, you know, they werereally badly burned by, you
know, their prior, you know,MSP. You're being brought in,
you know, from Big Cloud, and,obviously, you know, Big Cloud's
recommendation and just, youknow, the relationship that they
have, you know, with Craig. I'mreally but I also know at the

(31:28):
same time, you had mentionedthat they had a lot of doubts
about having, you know, an MSPfrom another state. So what are
some, specific things that youdid right out of the gate to
help them overcome those doubtsof working with somebody who's,
you know, clear across thecountry?
Or you answered the other way iswhat would be just some some,

(31:50):
you know, specific not actuallyI don't wanna do a specific tip.
I wanna say maybe, like, what's,like, one thing that you that
somebody who's finds himself ina similar situation, what is it
like you absolutely have to doright out of the gate to help
that customer overcome thosedoubts?

Well, in in this case, the the customer being in
a different state and

Yeah.

Craig Craig needing us to to provide, you
know, IT services, fieldservice, all of it, and we're
not local. So the first thing wedid is a lot of due diligence
around finding a great partnerthat's local to that client,
that could be on call for us.That could be our hands and feet

(32:34):
when we need it. And we did.Actually, we talked to a few,
but, ultimately, we're veryselective.
And and we found a great teamdown there that that we work
with, have such a greatrelationship with them now. They
brought us into a bunch ofclients now that we're doing the
cybersecurity for them. So it'sturned into a great great
partnership, but they're they'rethey're just doing hands and

(32:57):
feet over there, which they'vedone a lot of, especially in the
early on, you know, part wherewe had a lot of, infrastructure
refresh. But that that was aconcern not only for the client.
It was concern for Craig and I.
It's like, how are we gonna beable to handle build service if
I'm not gonna put a tech on aplane every time someone's
printer doesn't work. Right? So,yeah, that that was a a a

(33:21):
absolute requirement that we gotin front of right away.

Nice. I know aside from the initial, were
there any other challengesduring the engagement? And if
so, maybe what were they, andhow did you guys work together
to overcome it?

So you don't know the client, so there's
always a challenge during theengagement. Really, I mean, we
just call them clients. Uh-huh.Honestly, sometimes I like the
challenging clients a littlebetter because, you know, they
ask questions that make youthink about something, or it
sends you in a differentdirection that it's out of my
normal comfort zone. Right?
And I wind up researchingsomething else. I, I like the

(33:58):
easy clients that that, hey, youwant the tough ones to deal
with.
I didn't say a lot of thembecause somehow nobody else in
our company wants to deal with
them. They all come back to me.What's nice though is, in this
case, especially, having Jasonto be able to go, were you on
this thread? Did you see this?
What'd you think of this?

So Yeah. We commiserate a lot. It's great.

Yeah. But, you know, it's really it comes back
to trust. It comes back to trustwith the client. If the client
trusts you, which took a longtime for us, it wasn't that it
wasn't a a right away thing.Right?
They actually got referred to usfrom someone else who didn't do
only did SharePoint, right, anddidn't do, and they got this
lead. And so that's how we gotthis client. Right? And so it's

(34:43):
really about how do you developthat relationship with the
client. And like Jason said, youhave to tailor you have to know
your audience.
Right? And so every client'sdifferent. And so, like, on the
SharePoint side, you know, whenwe do a project or we do a build
out and we talk to a client toyou know, today and we finish
something and then we talk to adifferent client tomorrow, we
explain to them, no. We're stillgonna do discovery because, you

(35:06):
know what? What we builtyesterday is not gonna be for
you.
It's not gonna meet your needsbecause your company is
different and how you work isdifferent. And so we need to
understand that going in. And Ithink if you do and you you have
that ongoing reputation with theclient, then it will it it it
develops over time. Right? Whatwas the question, Anthony?

That's right. Rudy, you you mentioned that you
got a question?

No. I I'm tired of talking to these guys. But,
no. I I think it's great. Youknow, partnering can be very
challenging at times, and it'sit's great when you build those
those relationships.
So when when you partnertogether on on any opportunity
and, by the way, those areservice opportunities when you

(36:00):
have a difficult client. Thoseare service opportunities.

Yes.

So the the challenge can be you know, one
of the things that you we allwant to do and having run these
businesses before is, does ourservice increase the customer
satisfaction, and does it helpthem increase their revenue?
What are what are the metricsthat you guys look at in
servicing, during a partneringopportunity?

It depends on the client. Right? So I think in
this in the case of this client,I don't know that we were going
to enhance their revenue so muchas stop it from going away if
their technology didn't work,right, or if they got hacked or
Mhmm. I mean, any number ofthings. So in this particular
case Yeah.

To a degree, I think they're more efficient now
in a lot of ways. Agree

with them. I but they're also a bit

more resilient, more stable. Yeah. No downtime.

Yeah. And we've looked at their other systems,
and we know like, there are acouple other systems that need
to be replaced, and we'rediscussing it with them. They're
getting there. Right? But ittakes time.

Well, Jason, you brought up a good point on on
customer efficiency because thatalso you know, to to Craig's
point, that does drive revenue.The more efficient you are and,
you know, I I know I used toteach my teams. It's like, hey.
Let's measure this if we can,because it's it's one of those
great things when you're havinga quarterly business review or
something like that with aclient that you can go over. And

(37:29):
as an MSP, you know, you youtalked about the reports and
stuff, and they don't wanna hearthat, you know, a lot of the
things.
But it's always nice to reviewthe gains that you've had, you
know, in in in satisfaction, inrevenue, etcetera. As, I made a
joke about it with a clientyesterday. Clients just wanna
review the bills with you.Right? And there's other things

(37:50):
that you need to review.
And what are the things that welook at? The customer
satisfaction, revenue, there'sseveral metrics, and and our
teams can always bring us thatinformation, which is good to
review with a client. And so inpartnering, those are the kinds
of things to continue to havediscussions, you know, because,
you're always looking for waysto make your own organization

(38:12):
better, make the client'sorganization better, and and the
partner organizations. You know,you gotta have these
discussions. So do you guys everget into some of those things to
to really discuss, you know,when you're talking about
partnering opportunities?

To be honest, I don't think we have because we
look at it as, in the end, isthe client happy with what their
are their needs being met?Right? So, like, the the client
we partnered on, they perfectexample. They don't wanna talk
metrics. They don't care.
They don't wanna they don'twanna spend any extra time
talking to either of us, andthey like us. But they don't

(38:49):
wanna spend any extra timetalking to us, because my
conversation always ends withthem telling us how great we
are. And so, I mean, that part'sa good part of the conversation
to have. Right? But they don'twanna spend any more time with
us than they need to.
So, yes, it's the bills and whatthey look like, and then it's,
you know, here are upcomingprojects for the off season. And

(39:11):
that's pretty much it. Theydon't so we haven't discussed
those metrics because theclient, in this case, that
particular client doesn't care.

We do have some clients. I mean, in in cyber
risk, quantifying risk isimportant. Some of our clients,
want us to to help them at thatlevel. Some of them not at all.
We just, you know, get in andtry to protect them, and that's
it.
But those that do I mean, wehave systems in place that help

(39:38):
us, you know, try to quantify,the the financial what the
financial losses would be andeverything. Then, of course,
that starts getting intoconversations around cyber
insurance and and transferringto risk there and all of that.
Right? So there's a lot of thoseconversations happening more to
do with the the risk managementaspect. And because we have

(40:02):
systems in place to help usquantify those risks, it makes
it doable.
But when it's so nebulous, likeIT uptime and even that, like,
there are ways to quantify. Buta lot of it is also very, like,
hypothetical. Right? You know?And let's have a lot of data
points to really go off of andbe pragmatic about your, you

(40:25):
know, your your quantification.
It would be very, it would itwould come across maybe
nebulous. And and then and then,you know, how much credence is
are the numbers really gonnahave? Or is it is the customer
really gonna put much weight onthat? And so it does vary, but I

(40:45):
think there are ways to do it.And when you can quantify, any
value to a client, if there's away, Rudy, you mentioned, if we
can, this way.
Yeah. Absolutely.

We should. Yep.

Yeah. So and that's something that, I mean,
we could probably do even betterjob of. I think we all could.
Right? Anyone listening wouldwould probably think the same.
I think that's a huge, hugetakeaway here. It's a great,
great point to make, Rudy.

Yeah. And and to your point, Jason, I think you
do. We all manage ourconversations based on the
client's behavior. Right? Andand that's what you do because
you'll have clients that wannalearn know everything, and then
you have clients that go, likeCraig mentioned.
Let's get out of here get out ofhere, guys.

No. Know your audience. That's always in my
mind is know your audience.

But since both of you have since both of you
have talked a lot aboutpartnering, what advice do you
have for companies who arelooking at partnering? Because
that's one of the things, youknow, Microsoft pushes. We all
can't be experts at everythingthat we used to do back in the
1990s. Right? If we were allexperts at everything in the
1990s

(41:55):
And then the world changed.Right? The cloud came along, and
everything changed. And and sowhat advice do you have for
people who are looking atpartnering, who know they they
may need to to partner? Becauseyou've brought up some very good
points, and I think we need todiscuss those.
What advice would you have forpeople to you know, who are
looking at possibly partnering?

My advice would be if if you're, say, the
business owner and you're anintrovert and you don't really
like to get out there and talkto people and go to these events
where you're gonna meet otherpartners or anything, hire
someone that you trust that isgood at that stuff. Because, I
mean, for me, I love doing thatstuff. I love going to IAMCP
meetings and shaking hands and,you know, all that and getting

(42:38):
to know people. It's it's a oneof my best parts of the of the
month, right, to go and do that.I love connecting with with
Craig and other partners that Ihave and and you know?
But not everyone does, and I'veseen that a lot. I've good
friends, colleagues of mine thathave their own shops, their own

(42:58):
MSPs, or or they're just, youknow, independent consultants,
and they're busy working allday, and then they go home, and
that's it. And they don'treally, you know I'm, like, one
of 3 people they'll talk to. Andand, yeah.

And I do think it's gotten worse since everyone
works from home a lot more. And,I mean, not that I'm not for
that. I love working from homeand, you know, and but I think
that the communication haschanged from not being in in a
group setting periodically.

Yeah. I think so. But I think it's also that
personality type. Right? Noteveryone's wired to be a
networker.
And, you know, you don't need tobe salesy. It's not what it's
about. It's about just wantingto meet people and get to know
them and get to know what theydo. I mean, if if you're if
you're in a back of an Uber, areyou talking to the Uber driver
and getting to know who theyare? Are you on your phone and

(43:50):
not seeing a word the wholetime?
That that tells you who you are.Right? I wanna I'm the guy
that's talking to the Uberdriver, and I would want someone
on my team to be that guy too,you know, if they're gonna be
out there networking.

That's a good California answer. New Yorkers.
Don't get in the kit don't getin the car and talk to the
driver. Sorry.

Get in a stranger's car and then talk to
him. That's the world we live innow.

Well, I I think both of you have demonstrated
the value of partnering, andthat's one of the things to to
really discuss with people isthe value that you bring to the
table. And and that's it's ait's a great thing when you do
build these relationships likeyou guys have built. I think
that's really good because thatthat that brings value to your
your individual companies andvalue to your customers as well.

And I think it goes to you know, we don't sell
any products or services that wewouldn't use or don't use. I
think the same holds true forpartnering. Right? We don't if I
wouldn't use Jason's company forus. If I wouldn't trust him for
us, then I wouldn't say to aclient, these are the guys.
Right? It's like we have anotheropportunity going on in New

(45:00):
York. I know exactly the partnerto call in New York. I already
told our client because we'renot gonna manage his firewall
because it's not what we do.Right?
And he's like, well, can't youjust nope. Because I don't wanna
be the guy when your Internetdoesn't work. Right? And you
need a partner in New York whereyou are, and I have a partner to
bring in who will do exactlythat for him.

Anthony, I'll turn it back to you.

First of all, thank you. I mean, this this
story was fantastic. You bothgot extensive, you know, amount
of, you know, experience, like,with partnering. You know your
swim lanes. So just doing a lotof, you know, good, things, you
know, really right. Or at least,you know, if it's in Craig's
case, it sounds like you'redoing it right. Right, Craig?

Thanks, I think. Yeah.

Perception is everything.

That's it. And, I'm just messing with you,
Craig. I know I'm gonna probablyfind a way to kinda I'll pay for
it here a little later. But, asexecutives, you know, in in your
companies, what did you bothlearn that enabled your
respective organizations toimprove from this particular
experience?

Good question. I I think that so, originally, I
don't know that I was gonna meetJason in Atlanta because I had
been in New York and but Idecided it was good to go to one
meet Jason and see our client.Being on that trip was
fantastic. I mean, not only didJason and I get to spend some
one on one time together andplay credit card roulette, whole
other story. But we did youknow, we we met with the client.

(46:28):
And I think that, honestly, andnot I mean, I I don't wanna take
credit for this, but I thinkthat being there, my being there
because the client had so muchtrust in me, we which, like I
said, took a long time to build.But I think my being there made
it easier for Jason to close thebusiness and for the client to

(46:50):
really understand what theyneed. Right? So I think that was
super important. So I definitelylearned the on the on-site
visit, well worth it.

Face to face is so important. It it makes a
world of difference. And ifthere's yeah. I would say that's
a big one. Right?
I mean, I don't I don't go toclients very often. I mean,
honestly, the we have clients inmy company I've never talked to
ever. I have other people thathave sold them on what they
sell, and then they serve them.And so I haven't even met all

(47:20):
our clients. For me to fly outto a client all that, because
Craig introduced me.
And then I talked to them, and Irecognize, like, there's a lot
of opportunity here. There's alot that they're gonna need to
really get to know me and trustme in order to trust my company.
This is only gonna work if I getout there and spend some time

(47:42):
there, which is what I did. Andthen for Craig to come down and
just get that face to face time.If there is one thing, it's
that.
It's I we wouldn't have gottenthe client had I not gone out
there, and we try to do thingsremotely, which we could have
done. Mhmm. You know, wewouldn't have gotten that
client. They wouldn't be even ifwe did, they wouldn't be happy.
And we yeah.

(48:03):
Being there, being face to face,having Craig there, if there's
one takeaway, it would be that.It it does make a a a world of
difference.

And I think it comes back again to know your
audience. Right? Because Ididn't say to Jason when we
started this, I think you needto come here, you know, or or
I'll meet you there. You know?It was his decision.
He saw where this was going, andhe said, I think I need to make
a trip. Mhmm. Which made perfectsense. Right? So I think we both
had a learning experience fromthat.
And it comes back to the otherthing of know your audience.

(48:32):
Know your audience. Know youryeah. Know who you're talking
to. Because with other clients,not a problem.
Like, the client in New York wewere just discussing, when I say
to him, this is the person Iwanna bring, not a problem. He
doesn't care. But in this case,it would have made all the
difference in the world. And ifthey didn't personally like
Jason, this particular client,if he didn't relate to Jason, it

(48:52):
wouldn't have worked.

Yeah.

Wow. That's awesome. That's awesome. Thanks,
guys. That's really good.
So, last last question. I knowat the beginning, you know, you
know, we were talking a littlebit in preshow about you guys
are doing some cool andinteresting things, you know, in
your companies. You've beenholding out for about 45 minutes
now. Let's hear it. What aresome cool and interesting things

(49:15):
you guys are doing?

Go ahead, Jason.

Oh, Yeah. I mean, I'm it's funny. I've had
the company for about 15 years,and I feel like we're in startup
mode again in a lot of ways. Imean, we're just, busier than
ever. We're growing prettyquickly now.
And it's all because of the thetransition that we've we've been
making into, managed securityservices. Right? And what's

(49:42):
really cool, I think, is theopportunity finally to not only
partner with MSPs that we'vebeen able to partner with
certain things, or I'll use theterm MSP loosely because, you
know, like, big cloud, maybe isor is not an MSP, but they do
elements of that with SharePointand all that. So now we actually

(50:03):
have MSP partners that that havecome to us, so that we've talked
to. We've had some relationshipswith different, you know, ones
I'm good friends with with many,founders of different, you know,
smaller MSPs.
But now we actually have MSPsthat are bringing us into their
clients, which we were an MSP.Like, that would have never
happened. Right? Mhmm. And sonow I'm getting to work with

(50:27):
these folks that I really like,that I'm good friends with, and
and they're bringing us into, tohelp them with the security.
And and they're they're happy.The clients are happy. It it's
just turning into some reallygreat, you know, win win sort
of, situations. But that'sthat's kind of the coolest

(50:47):
thing, I think, is being able tonow I've been in the MSP space
for 15 years, been in IT for 25,and just getting to now be
partnering with the IT folks outthere that are recognizing that
cybersecurity is a beast. And tobe great at IT and security is
is a tall order.

(51:08):
And unless you're a pretty largecompany, you're gonna struggle.

And they're not good at it either. Large
companies aren't good at iteither.

Yeah. There's a lot that are really, really just
not not cutting it out there.And so instead of trying to just
grow products at the problem,which most MSPs are doing, you
know, the the ones that arepartnering with us, we love it,
and it's working out great forthem because we we we look at
risk from a risk based approachrather than a product based

(51:40):
approach. So it makes a a worldof difference when when we're
going to have the conversationswith the clients as well as,
curate the appropriate solutionsfor each client?

I would say for us, you know, our focus is
definitely still SharePoint andAzure. We're doing a bunch of
AVD work too, which is greatbecause, I think clients are
finally starting to see thevalue of the AVD. And so that's
great. But I think that, youknow, again, it comes back to

(52:16):
partnering for us and makingsure the clients get what they
need.
Because for us, a lot of times,things will start out as
SharePoint projects. That's howpeople find us or that's what we
get referred for. And thendepending on what it is, after
that first project, they'relike, oh, great. You can be our
CSP. And now you can do this forus.
And now so, you know, it alwayscomes down to, hey. Prove
yourself. And then we'll take afurther leap with you.

Excellent. Excellent. And, how can people
find out more information aboutyou?

So for me, that's simple. I'm
craig@bigcloudconsultants.com.And phone number is
828-348-1515. And our website,bigcloudconsultants.com

Yeah. You can't find me. I'm, out there. So good
luck. I just did

a Google search. You should see what
comes up.

Yeah. No. Definitely. I would love to hear
from anyone. My email isjason@greenlight-is.com
And, yeah, you can find me onLinkedIn. My last name, m a k e
v i c h, pretty unique. So nottoo hard to find me out there.

And we'll have we'll have the, web addresses
and your LinkedIn profile linksin the show notes for people who
wanna find out, just moreinformation about, you know, Big
Cloud consultants and, andGreenlight really appreciate you
guys. This was fun. This wasvery, very informative. And you
guys, once again, thank you.

Yeah. Thank you for having us.

Appreciate it.

Well, that was fun. I really appreciate, Jason
and Craig for being on with ustoday. I learned a lot, took
away several really keypractical things. Rudy, what
were some things that you tookaway, from the episode today?

Well, I I thought it was a great episode.
And and some of the things thatI learned from both these
gentlemen and the that theyexhibited was that as a member
of IAMCP, you can meet, you youcan meet partners, through
meetings, either live or oronline. And through that, you
through networking with otherpartners, you can learn to build

(54:29):
trust relationships with eachother, and that'll help you in
determining who are the partnersthat you wanna work with. So
when a when a client brings youan opportunity, then you have
the sources that you can go toto build that that you trust and
then introduce them to theclient and build a a bigger,

(54:50):
deeper trust relationship withthe client. So I think that's
very important, and they taughtus that, again, it could happen
at the local level.
It can happen at the regional orglobal level.

Yeah. One of the things I appreciated too
what Craig was saying, you know,on that note is, he mentioned
about, like, with, you know,with IAMCP as as his trust
network. And the phrase he said,look, that I know when I talked
to a fellow IMCP member, they'regonna work the same way, have
that that code of ethics, thatwe have. I I thought that was a

(55:21):
great, you know, way to phrasethat. What have you found just
in your experience, you know, inIAMCP for many years?
I mean, what have you found,like, when working with IMCP
members versus not?

Well, that trust relationship is real important.
I've had great success building,lots of great networking
relationships, throughout theyears. And and they still exist
today even though I'm no longerdoing IT services. But the one
thing was, I remember when wewere starting the IAMCP, we

(55:54):
worked hard on that code ofethics. We worked very, very
hard on that code of ethics.
And and that's what I still liveby because that's how I ran my
companies. You have to beaccountable. You have to operate
with high integrity. And andmore importantly, you have to be
able to communicate, what youwant and what you want done. And
and that's the one thing I'velearned from from all the

(56:17):
partnering that we do at IAMCP
And over the years, we've builtthe resources and the courses to
teach people that this is thebest way to build those
partnering relationships.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Yeah. And there was another point that was
brought up a few times thatreally resonated with me when
they kept using, the phrase,creating a raving fan. And
especially, like, in thissituation, I mean, it was a
really difficult situation ascustomers and, you know, between
being held hostage, you know,with their billing, data loss,
holding up passwords, all Imean, what a mess. But how they

(56:54):
came in and when he outlined,like, the steps that they took
to take, you know, a achallenging customer who's, you
know, in a really bad situation.Right?
So you got kinda like thiscompounding and how then they
created a raving fan out ofthem. And he and, you know, they
talked about how it's important,number 1, to just to understand,

(57:15):
you know, how the client'sfeeling, you know, try and, you
know, see, you know, from theirpoint of view, gain, you know,
ultimately, to to understandwhat's important to them. Number
3 said, do the things you needto do to make them kinda feel
better, solve their problem,alleviate that pain, you know,
right away, and then number 4,continue to earn their trust. I
thought that was fantastic. And,you know, to piggyback on both

(57:38):
what they were saying and justeven as as you mentioned here a
little bit earlier is if theclient trusts you, they're gonna
keep coming back.
And the the the comp the note Iwrote down is that, you know,
customers a good customerexperience, right, is the best
form of marketing.

Exactly. Okay. So I wanna thank all of you for
joining us on this episode ofIMCP profiles in partnership
powered by Duenamis Marketing.We hope you enjoyed the podcast
and find it useful andinspiring. If you did, please
subscribe, rate, and review uson your favorite podcast
platform.
And don't forget to follow us onsocial media and connect with us

(58:17):
on our website at iamcp.org,where you can find more
information, resources, andopportunities to partner for
success. One of the best ways topartner for success is to join
the IAMCP, a community ofMicrosoft partners who help each
other grow and thrive. IAMCPmembers can find and connect

(58:38):
with other partners locally andeven globally to access
exclusive resources andopportunities. Whether you're
looking for new customers, newmarkets, or new solutions, IAMCP
can help you achieve your goals.To learn more, visit the IAMCP
website at iamcp.org.

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