October 17, 2023 • 31 mins
Canyoneering with different people/groups is exciting, refreshing, fun, informative and sometimes difficult to navigate, just like dating. We discuss our recent experiences branching out from our core group and what we have learned that could help you along the way.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katie (00:08):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
I'm Katie
Carma (00:10):
and I'm Carma and you're listening to, I'd rather be
canyoneering.
Katie (00:14):
We're best friends who totally geek out about canyon
rigging and beautifully slotcanyons.
Basically we'd always rather becanyoneering.
But when we can't, we spendevery spare minute, we have
talking about it.
Carma (00:26):
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
Please seek professionalinstruction and practice
technical skills in a controlledenvironment before entering slot
canyons.
Your safety is entirely your ownresponsibility.
Katie (00:41):
Welcome to our canyon crew! hey everyone, hope you all
had an awesome summer.
We've been out playing in thecanyons and on backpacking trips
with friends and family.
Hopefully you've all had achance to get out and adventure
some too.
After this last season, we havereally had a chance to go out
there and kick it with a wholelot of really rad groups and get
(01:02):
to know a lot more canyoneers.
This episode, we're going tofocus on what it's like to go
out and join a new group wheremaybe you only know one person
in the group, or maybe you don'tknow anybody.
That's a totally new experiencefor us, and so we're going to
tell you a little bit about whatthat's like, what different
things come up, as challengesand what's really fun about
(01:24):
doing that.
Carma (01:25):
Yeah.
You can learn a lot seeing howother groups roll.
And the nice thing about it isyou can, choose to take away
from it, the stuff that youreally like.
And if there's something youdidn't love, you just leave it
behind, you know?
And also expanding your group ofcanyoneering friends is awesome.
It means you get to do morecanyons in more places.
When we started outcanyoneering, we were only going
(01:46):
with a small group of friends,mostly these were buddies.
We had climbed and adventuredwith a lot plus an occasional
add on to, of a friend to fillout a group.
But we were going with peoplethat we had seen in action in a
lot of different situations.
So high levels of trust alreadyestablished, with these friends
and we knew their comfort levelsand their styles and that we
(02:08):
already liked hanging out withthem.
Katie (02:09):
This episode is not so much on skill level competency
as it is on when you've alreadydecided that the group.
is proficient enough to go with.
And now there's just kind ofsome nuances within there.
So like we were saying, Carmen,I had a really well established
team and we knew everyone'sabilities, capabilities.
But now we live in differentareas.
(02:30):
So I'm up in salt Lake, Karma'sdown in St.
George.
We obviously can't go on everysingle Canyon trip together and.
Carma (02:37):
even though we try.
Katie (02:38):
Right?
Carma (02:39):
So when you have someone that's your leading buddy, you
know, where we're usually thebread of the sandwich, you know,
of the rest of the group whereone of us is usually the first
and one of us is usually thelast.
And we're used to doing thoseroles we know each other really
well.
We know what to expect the otherperson is going to do.
Katie (03:01):
To me, it feels like a soccer team.
Like, Oh yeah, I know whereyou're going to kick the ball.
Like I know if I'm on the post,you're going to kick it to me.
You know?
Carma (03:08):
I can anticipate it, which is really useful.
Katie (03:11):
It's definitely a team sport.
Carma (03:12):
It is a team sport and it does help in a lot of situations
in the canyon, if you cananticipate.
what the other person wants oris trying to communicate.
That makes me think of, uh, itwas Stuart Falls when the log
was bottom belaying me.
So our rope, the very end of ithad just barely gotten snagged
(03:37):
on this log and it was giving mea fireman belay and I couldn't
keep going down the rope.
Katie just watching me try topull on the rope.
She knew exactly what I neededwhen I needed it.
I looked down, I saw her runningover and I was like, Oh,
perfect.
I know Katie understands whatneeds to happen to fix this
(03:57):
situation.
I was so relieved, I wasn'teven, necessarily trying to
signal to you, but you knewfrom, my body language and what
I was doing and immediately wentto fix the situation anyway, so
things like that, it's reallynice to have someone that You
know what they're going to do.
Katie (04:14):
I usually go with a group where I at least know one person
in the group and that'straditionally been kind of a
trump card for me, where if I'mnot comfortable with something
I'm seeing or the rigging orsomething, then I have somebody
that I can talk to and kind of,if I choose to rig it
differently for myself, then Ihave a buddy who can partner
check me before I go down and Ijust really feel free To be able
(04:38):
to move within the group and Ican still make personal
decisions for myself..
Carma (04:42):
but Katie, you went with a group where you didn't know
anyone in the group.
What was that like?
Katie (04:47):
Yeah.
I did that in the Seattlerendezvous and I had been
signing up for the canyons basedon the canyons that I wanted to
do.
And then I was looking forsomebody that I knew in each of
the groups.
And I knew I'd have a good time.
I at least have one friend inthe canyon.
But one night I got home kind oflate from work and All of my
friends had signed up forcanyons already that were full,
(05:09):
and so I didn't have the optionto go with somebody that I knew.
So I Picked by the canyons thatI was most excited to do and
then I read the leader bios theMountaineers and the Pacific
Northwest had put togetherleader bios You could read up on
what their experience was likeand I had pictures, knew who I
was looking for, so I thoughtthat was really well done, and
it took a lot of the guessworkout for me, and I really
(05:30):
appreciated that they did that.
Carma (05:31):
that's awesome
Katie (05:32):
And then I kind of asked around.
I asked some of my friends fromthe PNW if they knew those
particular leaders, and if theythought I'd have a good time
with them, and they all vouchedfor them and said, oh yeah,
they're solid, and you're gonnahave a good time.
So, I felt pretty good about it.
but still just a touch nervous.
So I made sure that I met themthe night before I did the
(05:52):
canyon with them.
I kind of sought out somebodywho knew who they were and can
you introduce to these guys andI just want to see, what they're
like And when I met them, theyhad actually had kind of a rough
day in their canyon that day.
And I was going to go with themthe day.
And so when I met them, theydidn't seem like super
energetic.
I was like, well, I'm going togo, but I'm not sure if I'm
going to have a good time ornot.
(06:13):
We'll see, you know.
And then, the next day everybodyhad had a good night's sleep and
we got to the canyon and theyended up being hilarious.
Like as soon as their feettouched the water, they were
stoked and you could tell theexcitement was back.
And, we just had a blast.
they were playful.
They were everything I washoping for in the group.
So it's kind of tricky because,you can look up their beta, but
(06:34):
you don't know if that'severything about them and you
can meet them in person and theymight, be tired that day and
totally stoke the next, you cannever do it perfectly, but I
felt like I was at least goingin with my eyes open and kind of
knowing what I was getting intoand I felt good about it and it
was a great time.
Carma (06:50):
you were in a completely different environment.
Did you see anything cool?
Katie (06:54):
Yeah, actually.
A lot of the ropes weredifferent, out there.
It's really important thatthings don't sink into the
water.
And so not only do you have ropebags that float, but you also
have ropes that float.
And That actually makes me thinkof gear compatibility issues
that came out there a little bitEverybody's got different
devices that are their favoritesand they probably work really
(07:16):
well with their basic setups.
Whether they have a rugged olddesert rope that is totally
gnarred and rides really slow.
Or some people had like.
Brand new glacier black ropesthat float on the top of the
water and they are really slickand fast.
And one of the canyons that wewent into, I noticed that
(07:37):
somebody was going to ride downon a piranha.
And to me, I thought if I wasriding that, that might go a
little fast on some of the slickropes that I'd seen the day
before.
Carma (07:47):
Mm hmm.
Katie (07:47):
I kind of talked to the trip leaders is like, Oh, do you
know?
I have an extra hoodoo, likemaybe this would work better for
this person.
And, when I offered it to him,he actually was super hesitant
to take something new anduntried down the Canyon.
And that makes total sense.
Right.
Carma (08:02):
Yeah.
Katie (08:02):
And so we did offer bottom belays.
and that was nice to have on thefirst repels.
I still think that the person inmy group ended up going a little
faster than he wanted to.
And so, it just made me think,as you're going down these
canyons, even though somebodysaid, oh yeah, I brought a rope
that's this many feet long, youmay come up to ropes that are
(08:23):
faster or slower than whatyou're used to, and choosing
that correct compatibility mightjust be a little bit nuanced.
And maybe you do want to ask fora bottom belay, or for the
person who went too fast, maybeif I had offered to like hang
out with him so that I coulddouble check the hoodoo and he'd
feel comfortable, something Ithought of later was maybe there
(08:45):
was somebody else with a hoodoothat could have gone down with
that person and helped them likedouble check it every time that
it was right so that they wouldfeel comfortable.
Those are just kind of some ofthe ideas that I had so that
nobody got surprised bycompatibility between belay
devices and unfamiliar ropes.
Carma (09:00):
Right.
When you don't know the rope,you don't know how it feels in
your specific device.
So, sometimes it's just someonehas a new one.
New ropes are slick.
They just ride fast.
And Sometimes you can just tellbecause it's shiny and it's not
like all fuzzy yet.
Katie (09:19):
Feels smooth, yeah.
Carma (09:20):
It feels smooth.
So then you can kind of predictlike, Oh, I might go a little
faster.
I'm going to want to put alittle bit more friction.
Also sometimes people are usedto doing a lot of things double
stranded and if they switch itup and they just haven't
experienced what it feels liketo ride their device single
stranded, then.
(09:41):
Yeah.
Sometimes they can, uh, get alittle bit more of a wild ride
than they were expecting orwanted to get.
Katie (09:49):
And when you put a group together, you might see a lot of
different gear coming to thetable that might not be.
As compatible as you mightexpect.
Carma (09:57):
Or just, some adjustments need to be made, but.
That can surprise people whenthey're not expecting it,
Katie (10:03):
Karma, what's surprised you in the groups that you've
gone with that haven't been yournormal groups?
Anything?
Carma (10:08):
Yeah, I've been surprised sometimes about the differences
in expectations of what geareveryone's supposed to bring.
Like what everyone considers isstandard personal gear.
Katie (10:19):
What was missing?
Carma (10:20):
Well, one time I went with a group, just me and a
friend joined up with a bunch ofpeople and it turned out that
almost nobody in the group had atether or a personal anchor
system.
So we were doing this Canyonwhere the first repel was
probably about 75 feet straightdown and it was a wet, splashy
(10:42):
Canyon.
And so it was slippery and wewere anchored off of a tree and
then the rappel station was likesloped and then dropped off.
So in order to grab the rope toput your rappel device on, you
needed to be standing in kind ofa precarious, slippery spot.
And since I was one of the fewpeople who had.
(11:04):
A personal anchor system or atether.
I was able to clip into theanchor and then I worked as the
anchor manager and I would Pullthe repel rope back far enough
away from the slippery edge foreveryone to rig on.
So we were able to work aroundit because we had at least two
or three personal anchor systemsin the group, but it definitely
(11:28):
wasn't.
What I was expecting and not theway I would have preferred to do
it.
So by the time I realized thatthe personal anchor systems were
missing, we were already at thefirst repel.
You know, we weren't anywhereclose to the cars or the
trailhead.
Katie (11:43):
If you didn't bring the gear, you can't discuss bringing
it or not bringing it.
If you just don't have it
Carma (11:47):
Yeah.
Something that I do now tomitigate that when I'm going
with new groups is that I askmore specific questions.
So instead of asking someone Idon't know if they have all of
their own personal gear, I askthem, do you have a harness, a
personal anchor system, a repeldevice, a locking carabiner?
(12:08):
I'm just very specific.
about what I'm asking ahead oftime.
And then I let them know I haveextras of these items.
So if they look at that list andthey're like, what is that?
You know, then they have thisopportunity to be like, oh, can
I borrow your extra one?
Because I've already told them Ihave an extra one and I'm
willing to loan it to them.
I just don't assume anymore thatwhen I say, all of your own
(12:31):
personal gear, that that meansthe same thing to them as it
means to me.
Because I've had that experienceof showing up and realizing it
didn't mean the same thing.
Katie (12:42):
Yeah
Carma (12:43):
Now on the other hand, this group was excellent at
giving bottom belays andcommunicating between the
belayer and the repeller.
So that was something positive Itook away from that same
experience too.
Like I had never seen a group beso consistent with that before.
So something, you know, Ilearned from them, even though
there was this other thing thatI didn't love
Katie (13:05):
yeah, awesome.
Anything else?
I mean, I'm sure you've gonewith different people who had
different perspectives than youhad on probably a variety of
things.
Carma (13:13):
I definitely have run into having different
perspectives about what is okayto use in the canyon as far as
like drugs or alcohol andwhether people are comfortable
with people using something precanyon or mid canyon as opposed
to post canyon.
The people that I'm, go with arefine with whatever somebody
(13:34):
wants to use post canyon.
but not comfortable with peopleusing things pre canyon or mid
canyon.
Just because...
You really have to have yourmental state clear when you're
canyoneering, and that can be asafety issue for you and for the
group as a whole.
Katie (13:51):
Yeah, I could see how that could come up with alcohol,
marijuana, medicine,prescriptions.
Any of that could definitelycome up be something to talk
about.
Or, hopefully it wouldn't be asurprise, but I could definitely
see how that could happen too.
Carma (14:05):
Yeah, you know, in my case, it definitely was, and I
honestly think most of the timethat this is going to come up,
it will be a surprise, and whenyou get there and somebody pulls
something out, like, you reallydon't know their history.
You don't know if they're usingit for medical reasons or if
it's recreational.
And it's just something, likeyou'll probably have to address
on the fly with the group.
Katie (14:27):
Yeah, that makes sense.
You don't know if that's liketheir normal dosage, or if
they're upping it, or if then itbecomes a sharing thing.
And you'd kind of need to beable to address it right there
and say, Hey guys, do you wantto wait until the end of the
Canyon for that?
That'd be great.
Carma (14:41):
Right.
Katie (14:42):
And then maybe someone has the opportunity to tell you
more about their history ifthey're willing to share.
And if not, you have the choiceto go or not go still.
Carma (14:50):
Yeah, definitely.
Katie (14:52):
Something else I wanted to share with you was that it
was really exciting to be ableto go into new canyons that I
wasn't familiar with and alsothat had very little beta
available.
In the Pacific Northwest, a lotof these canyons are relatively
new and some of the people I gotto go with were literally people
who had been on the firstdescents of these canyons and
(15:15):
That was really fun.
There's this part of me thatdefinitely wants to know all the
beta before I go and wants toknow every little detail so I
can be completely prepared.
But with some of these canyons,there wasn't a list of Repel 1,
Repel 2, and Rebellay here anddo this there.
So when I got to those types ofcanyons, I was really excited
and I knew somebody who was onthe trip who I knew was great at
(15:36):
researching canyons.
I really trusted them to leadthat canyon.
And even though I basically justlook up the maps and know where
the exits were, I had, that typeof intel.
Other than that, I had friendsthat were saying, Hey, on this
next rappel, you're going to goaround the corner.
There's going to be a set ofbolts.
Don't rappel past them.
We need to re belay there.
And here we go.
(15:57):
And to me, that was really.
fun.
There was one canyon where itwas such an adventure because I
knew that more than three of thepeople were completely solid on
the canyon and I got to go intoit not knowing what was around
every corner and it was magical.
I went down this canyon and Iwent into this room called the
(16:18):
rain room and I had seen nopictures of it and I just got to
be amazed and It was like afirst descent is how it felt for
me.
And that was such a cool giftthat those friends gave to me to
be able to explore somethingthat's not super well known and
to just feel the magic of thatexploration and not knowing
what's around the next corner.
(16:39):
It was awesome.
Carma (16:40):
Yeah, that is really cool.
I've had kind of similarexperiences, out here in St.
George that I've been luckyenough to know a few people who
would take me down some of theshow, don't tell canyons in the
area where, yeah, you're goingin.
You don't have a list of all therepels or exactly how the
approach goes.
And so you do get to see it withfresh eyes.
(17:02):
You haven't watched threeYouTube videos of it already.
And the awesome thing about thatis, getting to know, these other
canyons that aren't just listedonline for everyone to see.
And I think If you're going todo that, you need to have trust
built with the people that aretaking down.
Because when you can't find allthe information for yourself, it
(17:24):
comes down to, do I trust theperson who's taking me to lead
me safely down this canyon?
And luckily I have gotten to dothat, where the person who was
taking me had done that canyonmany times, and just had a lot
of experience in general.
So I trusted them to take me.
It's a fun way to learn aboutsome hidden treasures.
Katie (17:44):
And I still, in that situation, prefer, there's at
least two people that know allthe ins and outs and exit
routes.
And like in my case, there wasthree, four, five.
And I like that because then ifthat trip leader got hurt,
there's not only one person whoknows the beta, but there's a
couple, there's backup.
So that's kind of one of my failsafes.
That, I like to have in placewhen I am doing a show don't
(18:06):
tell or a non published betatype canyon
Carma (18:10):
yeah.
Katie (18:11):
I did want to share one really good piece of advice that
my husband sent me off toSeattle with, he said, I know
you're going with a lot ofpeople and you're excited to
learn a lot in a differentenvironment and also just check
the hubris.
of the group.
Hubris refers to, being overlyconfident and he said, make sure
(18:32):
that you are solid and you arecomfortable with everything that
you're doing.
And I thought that would bereally easy advice to follow.
I was like, Oh yeah, I alwaysdouble check myself.
I know I don't go down anythingI don't think is safe.
And yet.
There was a moment where maybe Iwasn't, as spot on with that as
I should have been.
And I just want to share a quickstory because you don't think
(18:55):
that you'll get caught in thishubris trap or in the guide halo
or in any of that.
But I was doing a canyon.
And, we had been checking thedepth for jumps and we're coming
up to what was going to be ajump and a couple of us had
goggles.
I had gone over with one otherCanyon year to set up the repel.
I was going to repel down.
do the depth check with mygoggles, and then everybody else
(19:15):
was going to do the jump.
So they all stayed back on thiskind of ledge over by a diving
board where they were all goingto go, and we were around kind
of a different area, kind of inthe woods a little bit.
And, I got up to the spot andjust the way that we were on a
kind of a small ledge, I wasdoing the setup of And I did, an
EMO and the person came upbehind me and said, Oh, you know
(19:37):
what?
I don't know how to releasethat.
And this is a blind repel here.
so what should we do?
So I said, well, what releasablerigging do you know?
And she said, well, I can do aneight block with a braid.
And I said, well, I don't knowhow to double check that.
Um, huh.
What do we do?
Carma (19:57):
Yeah,
Katie (19:58):
So I decided that it was better that I go down and she'd
be able to release me.
So I took a look at it and thefriction was normal, same as how
I would set up the friction onit.
And then it was locked offthrough the small hole, which I
had seen online before.
And then it was just the braidand the safety that I didn't
really know.
So I did a pole test and itlooked good.
(20:19):
And so I went down on it andeverything was great.
I did the depth check, everyonedid their jumps.
Later down the canyon, I foundout that...
That was actually the first timethat she had rigged it for other
people.
She had just learned it thenight before.
Carma (20:34):
Oh,
Katie (20:34):
And that was a little bit unnerving for me because that's
just not how I roll.
I don't have anybody go down onsomething that I haven't done, a
dozen times or more and haddouble checked.
And so I kind of felt sillyhaving gone down on something
that I actually couldn't doublecheck.
I felt silly that I hadn't askedsomebody from, you know, way
(20:55):
back over there to come over andlook at it.
Looking back, I just should havegiven her my goggles and sent
her down first.
Um, but yeah, I think I did fallinto that hubris of, Oh yeah,
this person seems confident inwhat they're doing.
And so, uh, yeah, I'm good withit.
Carma (21:10):
Right, and you just don't know when you haven't met the
person before if they'reconfident in what they're doing,
when they learned it, or howmany times they've used it.
Katie (21:20):
And I didn't ask her how many times she tidied
Carma (21:22):
right.
And.
That kind of reminds me of aparallel with nursing.
So after I had become anexperienced nurse, I trained
other nurses and the nurses thatmade me the most nervous to
train were the nurses who wereoverconfident.
So like they learned somethingnew and then they'd want to jump
(21:43):
right in on a live patient andstart doing the procedure before
they had demonstrated to me thatthey I really knew all the steps
and how to keep it sterile, youknow, and so the nurses that I
trained or helped co train whowere overconfident, I worried
that they were going to go intoa patient's room without any
(22:06):
supervision and just start doinga procedure that they hadn't
really shown competence to do,whereas the nurses who were not
overconfident, they would ask alot of questions.
So they'd learn something newand then they'd want to practice
it in the med room and thenthey'd want to go into the room
and have me supervise them anddouble check their work before
(22:31):
they would go in and do it allby themselves.
Katie (22:35):
Yeah.
And you know, to be fair in theend, she had done it right.
I double checked it after I wenthome and it was correct.
And that's great.
That's just on me or on anybody,whether they're comfortable
going down on something theydon't recognize.
Carma (22:48):
Right.
Well, and it was just outside ofour norm, like you mentioned
that we usually have somebodycheck us multiple times before
we would do it ourselves withouta double check.
Yeah, the first time I did aCanyon without you, Katie, made
me nervous.
when you don't have that personwith you, who's like Your co
(23:08):
lead, your best Canyon buddy.
Right.
Then you kind of have to set upnew norms in your group.
For example the first time abunch of our normal crew went
together, but without you wasinteresting because we had to
make a new flow so people had tostep into different roles and it
worked out great but it wasdifferent.
Katie (23:29):
And it sounds like that might have made space for people
to, get experience that maybethey didn't have when I was
there.
Carma (23:35):
Yeah, definitely.
Katie (23:36):
I remember you told me something about being the last
person down and actually Trulybeing responsible for the rope
pull, which not that you haven'tdone it the whole time But I
think you said something aboutthat just being different when
you actually confronted it
Carma (23:52):
yeah.
So when we went without Katie, Ifell into being the last person
down role and It was actuallyreally good, yeah, because I got
so much more comfortable withthat role, and I was being
really cognizant of how we wererigging for the pull and where
the rope was going to lay andbeing that person coming down
(24:14):
you know, just making sure therope wasn't twisted it was a
good experience for me to haveto do that repeatedly because it
made me really comfortable.
And we even had discussionamongst us because we had Sarah
and Char out front doing a lotof the rigging and going down
first.
And at one point, one of themoffered to go last to clean.
(24:36):
And I was like, Oh yeah, if youwant to, but honestly, I'm
feeling good about it.
That Canyon happened to have alot of repels.
So I got to practice it a lot.
And Everyone did awesome.
It was a good day.
Katie (24:50):
That's been my experience in some of these other canyons
where I was jumping into PacificNorthwest with the Mountaineers
and they're an amazing crew andthey're so fun and they've got
their stuff dialed.
And for that, I was not thebread.
for a few trips up there andthat was just fun to be in that
zone where oh, I'm keeping upthe conversations to know if
(25:12):
somebody's still feeling good orsomeone's getting tired, but I'm
more on that social side ofteam.
Morale, you know, and helpinglike joking and having a good
time.
And that's an important roletoo, is to help keep everyone
moving because sometimes therigors, you know, they have to
be in super cereal mode all thetime.
They get in that mode and theykind of need somebody to come by
(25:32):
and splash and have some fun andto hand them a cookie, you know,
And there were some things Ididn't know that I got to do if
I didn't rig.
Like coming up and analyzing ananchor that you didn't get to
see the knots tied.
When you actually have to lookat an MMO and really look at it,
not getting to see it tied, it'sharder to inspect than if you
got to see it tied, if you werenumber one or number two.
Carma (25:54):
Right.
And you weren't part of thatdiscussion.
And then you're approaching itand you're analyzing it from,
outside this discussion andseeing, is this how I would have
done it?
Can I see why they chose to dothese
Katie (26:06):
Am I good with this?
Carma (26:07):
Yeah.
Am I okay with this?
Yep.
I've done that before too with,natural anchors, like Karen
anchors and things coming upwhen I wasn't, you know, part of
the setting up the rappel orinspecting everything Cause even
though other people have gonedown it, do I want to go down
it?
Katie (26:23):
There have also been some times in these big groups where
I really have held to my groundand really made sure that I was
comfortable and really confidentwith what we were doing, there
was a spot, um, on one of mytrips to an aquatic canyon, and
there was a big jump at the end.
A big, like, 40 feet.
And, I was the last person down.
I set the anchor.
(26:44):
I was manning the anchor.
And you basically have to rappelto a platform, then get off
rappel and do this 40 foot jump.
So, somebody else had gone downfirst and had swam over to land,
and then...
Another person went down and, itdidn't sound like they jumped.
It seemed like they swam, but Iwasn't totally sure.
(27:04):
They moved pretty quick.
And then the third person Iheard jump.
They dropped their bag.
It sounded like, and thensomething else, I don't know if
it was their jump or if theytook off their helmet.
But it all happened really fastand I wasn't.
sure that there was enough timein between that somebody had
actually done a depth check.
(27:25):
And so when I got out to theledge, I wasn't totally sure.
And I was asking the group, mysign language was great.
Everybody understood what I wasasking.
I was asking, did you guys jumpfrom this spot?
And everybody said, yes, thatjump happened from that spot.
But I couldn't confirm thatactually somebody had checked
(27:46):
the depth of the water.
I kind of like touched my eyes.
Like, did somebody look downhere and it just wasn't reading
from like across the pool andwith the noise of the waterfall
and everything, and I couldn'tconfirm somebody had checked the
depth of the water.
it seemed like I don't know,were we just doing a jump test?
And because I wasn't sure, Iactually rappelled down kind of
an extra five feet to kind of aweirder spot to jump from, but I
(28:08):
got to a spot where I could seereally well through the crystal
clear of the water and that'swhere I jumped from.
If I can't get solidcommunication that it's been
checked, then I'm going to movearound to this other spot where
I can see the lights really goodand I can actually see all the
way to the bottom.
Carma (28:23):
Right.
Where you're like, if I can'tconfirm, then I'm not going to
proceed.
Katie (28:28):
Yeah, I'm either finish this repel and just do it as a
repel and not do it as a jump,or I'm going to move to where I
can see everything I need to seeto make the jump.
Carma (28:35):
Right.
Don't assume just because otherpeople have gone before you that
they did all the things that youwould have done.Trust in
yourself.
Right?
Katie (28:44):
Yeah, All in all going with new groups of people is
awesome.
It's super fun to get out withnew personalities And see things
a different way, get newperspectives, learn new
techniques, get introduced to anarea that you don't know very
well, and grow your canyon crew.
Get to go out more often
Carma (29:02):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Katie (29:02):
to go with.
All these things are Awesomeperks, take 8?
And we also hope that we'vepointed you in some directions
for a few things to just keep aneye on.
If you can go with somebody whoyou already know and just have
one person in the group who youknow, that's awesome.
That really helps alleviate alot of the stress and pressure.
And if you can't, if you can geta feel for them, get someone
(29:25):
else to vouch for them, tell youa little bit about how the crew
generally rolls compared to howyou go, that's really helpful
to, to just have some insight tothe group before you go.
Carma (29:35):
Yeah, and something I've really taken away from going
with new groups is to just notmake assumptions.
So when you're running with yourown group, you kind of have
these preset assumptions aboutwhat it's going to be like.
don't assume everyone's going tobring all the gear that you
expect.
Don't assume that everyone'sgoing to, check everything the
way that you expect.
(29:56):
Just be open to, Askingquestions and finding different
solutions.
Talk to people in the group, ifyou're not comfortable with
something, that you see in theCanyon, there's ways to get
around that.
And also I think that it's justreally smart when you're going
with new people to pick canyonsthat are within your skill
level, and maybe even someshorter outings at first.
(30:18):
So you can feel things outbefore you're super committed to
a situation that might not endup being your favorite.
You can mitigate some of thoseissues if you pick something
simpler, shorter and canyons,ideally, even maybe ones that
you personally know.
So you can see people in actionand decide whether or not you
want to do something bigger withthem.
Katie (30:38):
Yeah.
Treat it like a first date.
Carma (30:40):
right?
Katie (30:41):
don't go road tripping with someone for your first
date.
Get to know them first, dancethe dance, you know, see if it
works out and see if you want tocommit to some of those bigger
trips.
Carma (30:52):
Canyon speed dating.
Katie (30:54):
canyon speed dating.
Carma (30:56):
Yeah.
If you're totally hooked oncanyoneering like us, remember
to subscribe, so you don't missany episodes and you can also
reach out to us on Facebook.
with questions, comments, topicsyou wanna talk about, or just to
say, Hey, cuz We would love tohear from you.
(31:19):
Thanks for dropping in with usand we'll catch you on the wrap
side.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
I'm Katie
Carma (00:10):
and I'm Carma and you're listening to, I'd rather be
canyoneering.
Katie (00:14):
We're best friends who totally geek out about canyon
rigging and beautifully slotcanyons.
Basically we'd always rather becanyoneering.
But when we can't, we spendevery spare minute, we have
talking about it.
Carma (00:26):
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
Please seek professionalinstruction and practice
technical skills in a controlledenvironment before entering slot
canyons.
Your safety is entirely your ownresponsibility.
Katie (00:41):
Welcome to our canyon crew! hey everyone, hope you all
had an awesome summer.
We've been out playing in thecanyons and on backpacking trips
with friends and family.
Hopefully you've all had achance to get out and adventure
some too.
After this last season, we havereally had a chance to go out
there and kick it with a wholelot of really rad groups and get
(01:02):
to know a lot more canyoneers.
This episode, we're going tofocus on what it's like to go
out and join a new group wheremaybe you only know one person
in the group, or maybe you don'tknow anybody.
That's a totally new experiencefor us, and so we're going to
tell you a little bit about whatthat's like, what different
things come up, as challengesand what's really fun about
(01:24):
doing that.
Carma (01:25):
Yeah.
You can learn a lot seeing howother groups roll.
And the nice thing about it isyou can, choose to take away
from it, the stuff that youreally like.
And if there's something youdidn't love, you just leave it
behind, you know?
And also expanding your group ofcanyoneering friends is awesome.
It means you get to do morecanyons in more places.
When we started outcanyoneering, we were only going
(01:46):
with a small group of friends,mostly these were buddies.
We had climbed and adventuredwith a lot plus an occasional
add on to, of a friend to fillout a group.
But we were going with peoplethat we had seen in action in a
lot of different situations.
So high levels of trust alreadyestablished, with these friends
and we knew their comfort levelsand their styles and that we
(02:08):
already liked hanging out withthem.
Katie (02:09):
This episode is not so much on skill level competency
as it is on when you've alreadydecided that the group.
is proficient enough to go with.
And now there's just kind ofsome nuances within there.
So like we were saying, Carmen,I had a really well established
team and we knew everyone'sabilities, capabilities.
But now we live in differentareas.
(02:30):
So I'm up in salt Lake, Karma'sdown in St.
George.
We obviously can't go on everysingle Canyon trip together and.
Carma (02:37):
even though we try.
Katie (02:38):
Right?
Carma (02:39):
So when you have someone that's your leading buddy, you
know, where we're usually thebread of the sandwich, you know,
of the rest of the group whereone of us is usually the first
and one of us is usually thelast.
And we're used to doing thoseroles we know each other really
well.
We know what to expect the otherperson is going to do.
Katie (03:01):
To me, it feels like a soccer team.
Like, Oh yeah, I know whereyou're going to kick the ball.
Like I know if I'm on the post,you're going to kick it to me.
You know?
Carma (03:08):
I can anticipate it, which is really useful.
Katie (03:11):
It's definitely a team sport.
Carma (03:12):
It is a team sport and it does help in a lot of situations
in the canyon, if you cananticipate.
what the other person wants oris trying to communicate.
That makes me think of, uh, itwas Stuart Falls when the log
was bottom belaying me.
So our rope, the very end of ithad just barely gotten snagged
(03:37):
on this log and it was giving mea fireman belay and I couldn't
keep going down the rope.
Katie just watching me try topull on the rope.
She knew exactly what I neededwhen I needed it.
I looked down, I saw her runningover and I was like, Oh,
perfect.
I know Katie understands whatneeds to happen to fix this
(03:57):
situation.
I was so relieved, I wasn'teven, necessarily trying to
signal to you, but you knewfrom, my body language and what
I was doing and immediately wentto fix the situation anyway, so
things like that, it's reallynice to have someone that You
know what they're going to do.
Katie (04:14):
I usually go with a group where I at least know one person
in the group and that'straditionally been kind of a
trump card for me, where if I'mnot comfortable with something
I'm seeing or the rigging orsomething, then I have somebody
that I can talk to and kind of,if I choose to rig it
differently for myself, then Ihave a buddy who can partner
check me before I go down and Ijust really feel free To be able
(04:38):
to move within the group and Ican still make personal
decisions for myself..
Carma (04:42):
but Katie, you went with a group where you didn't know
anyone in the group.
What was that like?
Katie (04:47):
Yeah.
I did that in the Seattlerendezvous and I had been
signing up for the canyons basedon the canyons that I wanted to
do.
And then I was looking forsomebody that I knew in each of
the groups.
And I knew I'd have a good time.
I at least have one friend inthe canyon.
But one night I got home kind oflate from work and All of my
friends had signed up forcanyons already that were full,
(05:09):
and so I didn't have the optionto go with somebody that I knew.
So I Picked by the canyons thatI was most excited to do and
then I read the leader bios theMountaineers and the Pacific
Northwest had put togetherleader bios You could read up on
what their experience was likeand I had pictures, knew who I
was looking for, so I thoughtthat was really well done, and
it took a lot of the guessworkout for me, and I really
(05:30):
appreciated that they did that.
Carma (05:31):
that's awesome
Katie (05:32):
And then I kind of asked around.
I asked some of my friends fromthe PNW if they knew those
particular leaders, and if theythought I'd have a good time
with them, and they all vouchedfor them and said, oh yeah,
they're solid, and you're gonnahave a good time.
So, I felt pretty good about it.
but still just a touch nervous.
So I made sure that I met themthe night before I did the
(05:52):
canyon with them.
I kind of sought out somebodywho knew who they were and can
you introduce to these guys andI just want to see, what they're
like And when I met them, theyhad actually had kind of a rough
day in their canyon that day.
And I was going to go with themthe day.
And so when I met them, theydidn't seem like super
energetic.
I was like, well, I'm going togo, but I'm not sure if I'm
going to have a good time ornot.
(06:13):
We'll see, you know.
And then, the next day everybodyhad had a good night's sleep and
we got to the canyon and theyended up being hilarious.
Like as soon as their feettouched the water, they were
stoked and you could tell theexcitement was back.
And, we just had a blast.
they were playful.
They were everything I washoping for in the group.
So it's kind of tricky because,you can look up their beta, but
(06:34):
you don't know if that'severything about them and you
can meet them in person and theymight, be tired that day and
totally stoke the next, you cannever do it perfectly, but I
felt like I was at least goingin with my eyes open and kind of
knowing what I was getting intoand I felt good about it and it
was a great time.
Carma (06:50):
you were in a completely different environment.
Did you see anything cool?
Katie (06:54):
Yeah, actually.
A lot of the ropes weredifferent, out there.
It's really important thatthings don't sink into the
water.
And so not only do you have ropebags that float, but you also
have ropes that float.
And That actually makes me thinkof gear compatibility issues
that came out there a little bitEverybody's got different
devices that are their favoritesand they probably work really
(07:16):
well with their basic setups.
Whether they have a rugged olddesert rope that is totally
gnarred and rides really slow.
Or some people had like.
Brand new glacier black ropesthat float on the top of the
water and they are really slickand fast.
And one of the canyons that wewent into, I noticed that
(07:37):
somebody was going to ride downon a piranha.
And to me, I thought if I wasriding that, that might go a
little fast on some of the slickropes that I'd seen the day
before.
Carma (07:47):
Mm hmm.
Katie (07:47):
I kind of talked to the trip leaders is like, Oh, do you
know?
I have an extra hoodoo, likemaybe this would work better for
this person.
And, when I offered it to him,he actually was super hesitant
to take something new anduntried down the Canyon.
And that makes total sense.
Right.
Carma (08:02):
Yeah.
Katie (08:02):
And so we did offer bottom belays.
and that was nice to have on thefirst repels.
I still think that the person inmy group ended up going a little
faster than he wanted to.
And so, it just made me think,as you're going down these
canyons, even though somebodysaid, oh yeah, I brought a rope
that's this many feet long, youmay come up to ropes that are
(08:23):
faster or slower than whatyou're used to, and choosing
that correct compatibility mightjust be a little bit nuanced.
And maybe you do want to ask fora bottom belay, or for the
person who went too fast, maybeif I had offered to like hang
out with him so that I coulddouble check the hoodoo and he'd
feel comfortable, something Ithought of later was maybe there
(08:45):
was somebody else with a hoodoothat could have gone down with
that person and helped them likedouble check it every time that
it was right so that they wouldfeel comfortable.
Those are just kind of some ofthe ideas that I had so that
nobody got surprised bycompatibility between belay
devices and unfamiliar ropes.
Carma (09:00):
Right.
When you don't know the rope,you don't know how it feels in
your specific device.
So, sometimes it's just someonehas a new one.
New ropes are slick.
They just ride fast.
And Sometimes you can just tellbecause it's shiny and it's not
like all fuzzy yet.
Katie (09:19):
Feels smooth, yeah.
Carma (09:20):
It feels smooth.
So then you can kind of predictlike, Oh, I might go a little
faster.
I'm going to want to put alittle bit more friction.
Also sometimes people are usedto doing a lot of things double
stranded and if they switch itup and they just haven't
experienced what it feels liketo ride their device single
stranded, then.
(09:41):
Yeah.
Sometimes they can, uh, get alittle bit more of a wild ride
than they were expecting orwanted to get.
Katie (09:49):
And when you put a group together, you might see a lot of
different gear coming to thetable that might not be.
As compatible as you mightexpect.
Carma (09:57):
Or just, some adjustments need to be made, but.
That can surprise people whenthey're not expecting it,
Katie (10:03):
Karma, what's surprised you in the groups that you've
gone with that haven't been yournormal groups?
Anything?
Carma (10:08):
Yeah, I've been surprised sometimes about the differences
in expectations of what geareveryone's supposed to bring.
Like what everyone considers isstandard personal gear.
Katie (10:19):
What was missing?
Carma (10:20):
Well, one time I went with a group, just me and a
friend joined up with a bunch ofpeople and it turned out that
almost nobody in the group had atether or a personal anchor
system.
So we were doing this Canyonwhere the first repel was
probably about 75 feet straightdown and it was a wet, splashy
(10:42):
Canyon.
And so it was slippery and wewere anchored off of a tree and
then the rappel station was likesloped and then dropped off.
So in order to grab the rope toput your rappel device on, you
needed to be standing in kind ofa precarious, slippery spot.
And since I was one of the fewpeople who had.
(11:04):
A personal anchor system or atether.
I was able to clip into theanchor and then I worked as the
anchor manager and I would Pullthe repel rope back far enough
away from the slippery edge foreveryone to rig on.
So we were able to work aroundit because we had at least two
or three personal anchor systemsin the group, but it definitely
(11:28):
wasn't.
What I was expecting and not theway I would have preferred to do
it.
So by the time I realized thatthe personal anchor systems were
missing, we were already at thefirst repel.
You know, we weren't anywhereclose to the cars or the
trailhead.
Katie (11:43):
If you didn't bring the gear, you can't discuss bringing
it or not bringing it.
If you just don't have it
Carma (11:47):
Yeah.
Something that I do now tomitigate that when I'm going
with new groups is that I askmore specific questions.
So instead of asking someone Idon't know if they have all of
their own personal gear, I askthem, do you have a harness, a
personal anchor system, a repeldevice, a locking carabiner?
(12:08):
I'm just very specific.
about what I'm asking ahead oftime.
And then I let them know I haveextras of these items.
So if they look at that list andthey're like, what is that?
You know, then they have thisopportunity to be like, oh, can
I borrow your extra one?
Because I've already told them Ihave an extra one and I'm
willing to loan it to them.
I just don't assume anymore thatwhen I say, all of your own
(12:31):
personal gear, that that meansthe same thing to them as it
means to me.
Because I've had that experienceof showing up and realizing it
didn't mean the same thing.
Katie (12:42):
Yeah
Carma (12:43):
Now on the other hand, this group was excellent at
giving bottom belays andcommunicating between the
belayer and the repeller.
So that was something positive Itook away from that same
experience too.
Like I had never seen a group beso consistent with that before.
So something, you know, Ilearned from them, even though
there was this other thing thatI didn't love
Katie (13:05):
yeah, awesome.
Anything else?
I mean, I'm sure you've gonewith different people who had
different perspectives than youhad on probably a variety of
things.
Carma (13:13):
I definitely have run into having different
perspectives about what is okayto use in the canyon as far as
like drugs or alcohol andwhether people are comfortable
with people using something precanyon or mid canyon as opposed
to post canyon.
The people that I'm, go with arefine with whatever somebody
(13:34):
wants to use post canyon.
but not comfortable with peopleusing things pre canyon or mid
canyon.
Just because...
You really have to have yourmental state clear when you're
canyoneering, and that can be asafety issue for you and for the
group as a whole.
Katie (13:51):
Yeah, I could see how that could come up with alcohol,
marijuana, medicine,prescriptions.
Any of that could definitelycome up be something to talk
about.
Or, hopefully it wouldn't be asurprise, but I could definitely
see how that could happen too.
Carma (14:05):
Yeah, you know, in my case, it definitely was, and I
honestly think most of the timethat this is going to come up,
it will be a surprise, and whenyou get there and somebody pulls
something out, like, you reallydon't know their history.
You don't know if they're usingit for medical reasons or if
it's recreational.
And it's just something, likeyou'll probably have to address
on the fly with the group.
Katie (14:27):
Yeah, that makes sense.
You don't know if that's liketheir normal dosage, or if
they're upping it, or if then itbecomes a sharing thing.
And you'd kind of need to beable to address it right there
and say, Hey guys, do you wantto wait until the end of the
Canyon for that?
That'd be great.
Carma (14:41):
Right.
Katie (14:42):
And then maybe someone has the opportunity to tell you
more about their history ifthey're willing to share.
And if not, you have the choiceto go or not go still.
Carma (14:50):
Yeah, definitely.
Katie (14:52):
Something else I wanted to share with you was that it
was really exciting to be ableto go into new canyons that I
wasn't familiar with and alsothat had very little beta
available.
In the Pacific Northwest, a lotof these canyons are relatively
new and some of the people I gotto go with were literally people
who had been on the firstdescents of these canyons and
(15:15):
That was really fun.
There's this part of me thatdefinitely wants to know all the
beta before I go and wants toknow every little detail so I
can be completely prepared.
But with some of these canyons,there wasn't a list of Repel 1,
Repel 2, and Rebellay here anddo this there.
So when I got to those types ofcanyons, I was really excited
and I knew somebody who was onthe trip who I knew was great at
(15:36):
researching canyons.
I really trusted them to leadthat canyon.
And even though I basically justlook up the maps and know where
the exits were, I had, that typeof intel.
Other than that, I had friendsthat were saying, Hey, on this
next rappel, you're going to goaround the corner.
There's going to be a set ofbolts.
Don't rappel past them.
We need to re belay there.
And here we go.
(15:57):
And to me, that was really.
fun.
There was one canyon where itwas such an adventure because I
knew that more than three of thepeople were completely solid on
the canyon and I got to go intoit not knowing what was around
every corner and it was magical.
I went down this canyon and Iwent into this room called the
(16:18):
rain room and I had seen nopictures of it and I just got to
be amazed and It was like afirst descent is how it felt for
me.
And that was such a cool giftthat those friends gave to me to
be able to explore somethingthat's not super well known and
to just feel the magic of thatexploration and not knowing
what's around the next corner.
(16:39):
It was awesome.
Carma (16:40):
Yeah, that is really cool.
I've had kind of similarexperiences, out here in St.
George that I've been luckyenough to know a few people who
would take me down some of theshow, don't tell canyons in the
area where, yeah, you're goingin.
You don't have a list of all therepels or exactly how the
approach goes.
And so you do get to see it withfresh eyes.
(17:02):
You haven't watched threeYouTube videos of it already.
And the awesome thing about thatis, getting to know, these other
canyons that aren't just listedonline for everyone to see.
And I think If you're going todo that, you need to have trust
built with the people that aretaking down.
Because when you can't find allthe information for yourself, it
(17:24):
comes down to, do I trust theperson who's taking me to lead
me safely down this canyon?
And luckily I have gotten to dothat, where the person who was
taking me had done that canyonmany times, and just had a lot
of experience in general.
So I trusted them to take me.
It's a fun way to learn aboutsome hidden treasures.
Katie (17:44):
And I still, in that situation, prefer, there's at
least two people that know allthe ins and outs and exit
routes.
And like in my case, there wasthree, four, five.
And I like that because then ifthat trip leader got hurt,
there's not only one person whoknows the beta, but there's a
couple, there's backup.
So that's kind of one of my failsafes.
That, I like to have in placewhen I am doing a show don't
(18:06):
tell or a non published betatype canyon
Carma (18:10):
yeah.
Katie (18:11):
I did want to share one really good piece of advice that
my husband sent me off toSeattle with, he said, I know
you're going with a lot ofpeople and you're excited to
learn a lot in a differentenvironment and also just check
the hubris.
of the group.
Hubris refers to, being overlyconfident and he said, make sure
(18:32):
that you are solid and you arecomfortable with everything that
you're doing.
And I thought that would bereally easy advice to follow.
I was like, Oh yeah, I alwaysdouble check myself.
I know I don't go down anythingI don't think is safe.
And yet.
There was a moment where maybe Iwasn't, as spot on with that as
I should have been.
And I just want to share a quickstory because you don't think
(18:55):
that you'll get caught in thishubris trap or in the guide halo
or in any of that.
But I was doing a canyon.
And, we had been checking thedepth for jumps and we're coming
up to what was going to be ajump and a couple of us had
goggles.
I had gone over with one otherCanyon year to set up the repel.
I was going to repel down.
do the depth check with mygoggles, and then everybody else
(19:15):
was going to do the jump.
So they all stayed back on thiskind of ledge over by a diving
board where they were all goingto go, and we were around kind
of a different area, kind of inthe woods a little bit.
And, I got up to the spot andjust the way that we were on a
kind of a small ledge, I wasdoing the setup of And I did, an
EMO and the person came upbehind me and said, Oh, you know
(19:37):
what?
I don't know how to releasethat.
And this is a blind repel here.
so what should we do?
So I said, well, what releasablerigging do you know?
And she said, well, I can do aneight block with a braid.
And I said, well, I don't knowhow to double check that.
Um, huh.
What do we do?
Carma (19:57):
Yeah,
Katie (19:58):
So I decided that it was better that I go down and she'd
be able to release me.
So I took a look at it and thefriction was normal, same as how
I would set up the friction onit.
And then it was locked offthrough the small hole, which I
had seen online before.
And then it was just the braidand the safety that I didn't
really know.
So I did a pole test and itlooked good.
(20:19):
And so I went down on it andeverything was great.
I did the depth check, everyonedid their jumps.
Later down the canyon, I foundout that...
That was actually the first timethat she had rigged it for other
people.
She had just learned it thenight before.
Carma (20:34):
Oh,
Katie (20:34):
And that was a little bit unnerving for me because that's
just not how I roll.
I don't have anybody go down onsomething that I haven't done, a
dozen times or more and haddouble checked.
And so I kind of felt sillyhaving gone down on something
that I actually couldn't doublecheck.
I felt silly that I hadn't askedsomebody from, you know, way
(20:55):
back over there to come over andlook at it.
Looking back, I just should havegiven her my goggles and sent
her down first.
Um, but yeah, I think I did fallinto that hubris of, Oh yeah,
this person seems confident inwhat they're doing.
And so, uh, yeah, I'm good withit.
Carma (21:10):
Right, and you just don't know when you haven't met the
person before if they'reconfident in what they're doing,
when they learned it, or howmany times they've used it.
Katie (21:20):
And I didn't ask her how many times she tidied
Carma (21:22):
right.
And.
That kind of reminds me of aparallel with nursing.
So after I had become anexperienced nurse, I trained
other nurses and the nurses thatmade me the most nervous to
train were the nurses who wereoverconfident.
So like they learned somethingnew and then they'd want to jump
(21:43):
right in on a live patient andstart doing the procedure before
they had demonstrated to me thatthey I really knew all the steps
and how to keep it sterile, youknow, and so the nurses that I
trained or helped co train whowere overconfident, I worried
that they were going to go intoa patient's room without any
(22:06):
supervision and just start doinga procedure that they hadn't
really shown competence to do,whereas the nurses who were not
overconfident, they would ask alot of questions.
So they'd learn something newand then they'd want to practice
it in the med room and thenthey'd want to go into the room
and have me supervise them anddouble check their work before
(22:31):
they would go in and do it allby themselves.
Katie (22:35):
Yeah.
And you know, to be fair in theend, she had done it right.
I double checked it after I wenthome and it was correct.
And that's great.
That's just on me or on anybody,whether they're comfortable
going down on something theydon't recognize.
Carma (22:48):
Right.
Well, and it was just outside ofour norm, like you mentioned
that we usually have somebodycheck us multiple times before
we would do it ourselves withouta double check.
Yeah, the first time I did aCanyon without you, Katie, made
me nervous.
when you don't have that personwith you, who's like Your co
(23:08):
lead, your best Canyon buddy.
Right.
Then you kind of have to set upnew norms in your group.
For example the first time abunch of our normal crew went
together, but without you wasinteresting because we had to
make a new flow so people had tostep into different roles and it
worked out great but it wasdifferent.
Katie (23:29):
And it sounds like that might have made space for people
to, get experience that maybethey didn't have when I was
there.
Carma (23:35):
Yeah, definitely.
Katie (23:36):
I remember you told me something about being the last
person down and actually Trulybeing responsible for the rope
pull, which not that you haven'tdone it the whole time But I
think you said something aboutthat just being different when
you actually confronted it
Carma (23:52):
yeah.
So when we went without Katie, Ifell into being the last person
down role and It was actuallyreally good, yeah, because I got
so much more comfortable withthat role, and I was being
really cognizant of how we wererigging for the pull and where
the rope was going to lay andbeing that person coming down
(24:14):
you know, just making sure therope wasn't twisted it was a
good experience for me to haveto do that repeatedly because it
made me really comfortable.
And we even had discussionamongst us because we had Sarah
and Char out front doing a lotof the rigging and going down
first.
And at one point, one of themoffered to go last to clean.
(24:36):
And I was like, Oh yeah, if youwant to, but honestly, I'm
feeling good about it.
That Canyon happened to have alot of repels.
So I got to practice it a lot.
And Everyone did awesome.
It was a good day.
Katie (24:50):
That's been my experience in some of these other canyons
where I was jumping into PacificNorthwest with the Mountaineers
and they're an amazing crew andthey're so fun and they've got
their stuff dialed.
And for that, I was not thebread.
for a few trips up there andthat was just fun to be in that
zone where oh, I'm keeping upthe conversations to know if
(25:12):
somebody's still feeling good orsomeone's getting tired, but I'm
more on that social side ofteam.
Morale, you know, and helpinglike joking and having a good
time.
And that's an important roletoo, is to help keep everyone
moving because sometimes therigors, you know, they have to
be in super cereal mode all thetime.
They get in that mode and theykind of need somebody to come by
(25:32):
and splash and have some fun andto hand them a cookie, you know,
And there were some things Ididn't know that I got to do if
I didn't rig.
Like coming up and analyzing ananchor that you didn't get to
see the knots tied.
When you actually have to lookat an MMO and really look at it,
not getting to see it tied, it'sharder to inspect than if you
got to see it tied, if you werenumber one or number two.
Carma (25:54):
Right.
And you weren't part of thatdiscussion.
And then you're approaching itand you're analyzing it from,
outside this discussion andseeing, is this how I would have
done it?
Can I see why they chose to dothese
Katie (26:06):
Am I good with this?
Carma (26:07):
Yeah.
Am I okay with this?
Yep.
I've done that before too with,natural anchors, like Karen
anchors and things coming upwhen I wasn't, you know, part of
the setting up the rappel orinspecting everything Cause even
though other people have gonedown it, do I want to go down
it?
Katie (26:23):
There have also been some times in these big groups where
I really have held to my groundand really made sure that I was
comfortable and really confidentwith what we were doing, there
was a spot, um, on one of mytrips to an aquatic canyon, and
there was a big jump at the end.
A big, like, 40 feet.
And, I was the last person down.
I set the anchor.
(26:44):
I was manning the anchor.
And you basically have to rappelto a platform, then get off
rappel and do this 40 foot jump.
So, somebody else had gone downfirst and had swam over to land,
and then...
Another person went down and, itdidn't sound like they jumped.
It seemed like they swam, but Iwasn't totally sure.
(27:04):
They moved pretty quick.
And then the third person Iheard jump.
They dropped their bag.
It sounded like, and thensomething else, I don't know if
it was their jump or if theytook off their helmet.
But it all happened really fastand I wasn't.
sure that there was enough timein between that somebody had
actually done a depth check.
(27:25):
And so when I got out to theledge, I wasn't totally sure.
And I was asking the group, mysign language was great.
Everybody understood what I wasasking.
I was asking, did you guys jumpfrom this spot?
And everybody said, yes, thatjump happened from that spot.
But I couldn't confirm thatactually somebody had checked
(27:46):
the depth of the water.
I kind of like touched my eyes.
Like, did somebody look downhere and it just wasn't reading
from like across the pool andwith the noise of the waterfall
and everything, and I couldn'tconfirm somebody had checked the
depth of the water.
it seemed like I don't know,were we just doing a jump test?
And because I wasn't sure, Iactually rappelled down kind of
an extra five feet to kind of aweirder spot to jump from, but I
(28:08):
got to a spot where I could seereally well through the crystal
clear of the water and that'swhere I jumped from.
If I can't get solidcommunication that it's been
checked, then I'm going to movearound to this other spot where
I can see the lights really goodand I can actually see all the
way to the bottom.
Carma (28:23):
Right.
Where you're like, if I can'tconfirm, then I'm not going to
proceed.
Katie (28:28):
Yeah, I'm either finish this repel and just do it as a
repel and not do it as a jump,or I'm going to move to where I
can see everything I need to seeto make the jump.
Carma (28:35):
Right.
Don't assume just because otherpeople have gone before you that
they did all the things that youwould have done.Trust in
yourself.
Right?
Katie (28:44):
Yeah, All in all going with new groups of people is
awesome.
It's super fun to get out withnew personalities And see things
a different way, get newperspectives, learn new
techniques, get introduced to anarea that you don't know very
well, and grow your canyon crew.
Get to go out more often
Carma (29:02):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Katie (29:02):
to go with.
All these things are Awesomeperks, take 8?
And we also hope that we'vepointed you in some directions
for a few things to just keep aneye on.
If you can go with somebody whoyou already know and just have
one person in the group who youknow, that's awesome.
That really helps alleviate alot of the stress and pressure.
And if you can't, if you can geta feel for them, get someone
(29:25):
else to vouch for them, tell youa little bit about how the crew
generally rolls compared to howyou go, that's really helpful
to, to just have some insight tothe group before you go.
Carma (29:35):
Yeah, and something I've really taken away from going
with new groups is to just notmake assumptions.
So when you're running with yourown group, you kind of have
these preset assumptions aboutwhat it's going to be like.
don't assume everyone's going tobring all the gear that you
expect.
Don't assume that everyone'sgoing to, check everything the
way that you expect.
(29:56):
Just be open to, Askingquestions and finding different
solutions.
Talk to people in the group, ifyou're not comfortable with
something, that you see in theCanyon, there's ways to get
around that.
And also I think that it's justreally smart when you're going
with new people to pick canyonsthat are within your skill
level, and maybe even someshorter outings at first.
(30:18):
So you can feel things outbefore you're super committed to
a situation that might not endup being your favorite.
You can mitigate some of thoseissues if you pick something
simpler, shorter and canyons,ideally, even maybe ones that
you personally know.
So you can see people in actionand decide whether or not you
want to do something bigger withthem.
Katie (30:38):
Yeah.
Treat it like a first date.
Carma (30:40):
right?
Katie (30:41):
don't go road tripping with someone for your first
date.
Get to know them first, dancethe dance, you know, see if it
works out and see if you want tocommit to some of those bigger
trips.
Carma (30:52):
Canyon speed dating.
Katie (30:54):
canyon speed dating.
Carma (30:56):
Yeah.
If you're totally hooked oncanyoneering like us, remember
to subscribe, so you don't missany episodes and you can also
reach out to us on Facebook.
with questions, comments, topicsyou wanna talk about, or just to
say, Hey, cuz We would love tohear from you.
(31:19):
Thanks for dropping in with usand we'll catch you on the wrap
side.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.