April 2, 2024 • 22 mins
Stages in the progression of a canyoneer can be a bit messy to sort out. That’s why we came up with the SUV analogy. Find out what seat in the SUV you’re currently occupying. And more importantly, imagine what seat you really want to be in!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katie (00:08):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
I'm Katie
Carma (00:10):
and I'm Carma and you're listening to, I'd rather be
canyoneering.
Katie (00:14):
We're best friends who totally geek out about canyon
rigging and beautifully slotcanyons.
Basically we'd always rather becanyoneering.
But when we can't, we spendevery spare minute, we have
talking about it.
Carma (00:26):
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
Please seek professionalinstruction and practice
technical skills in a controlledenvironment before entering slot
canyons.
Your safety is entirely your ownresponsibility.
Katie (00:41):
Welcome to our canyon crew! Welcome back everyone.
Today we're going to talk aboutthe progression of a canyoneer.
We want to help you see whereyou're at and where you can go.
Something that we've learnedover the years is that it's not
all about the numbers.
You can have done a lot ofcanyons, but still have beginner
(01:03):
skills.
And you could be fairly new onyour numbers of canyons that
you've completed, but havereally studied the skills to
bring you up to the next level.
We spent a lot of time on thistopic, trying to tease out what
skills belong where.
And it's not always clear wheresomebody fits in on the beginner
to advanced levels.
So we wanted to help you figureout what are the critical skills
(01:25):
that you might be missing insome categories so that you can
move forward.
Carma (01:28):
It takes time to build up experience and a frame of
reference in canyoneering.
So having that time in thecanyon helps you to see how the
things that you learned, liketheoretically, how they actually
play out in real life.
And you need that understandingto be able to interpret beta, to
(01:48):
plan a canyon, and then to goand execute the run through
successfully.
So one of the things we loveabout canyoneering is that there
is always more to learn, nomatter where you are.
And we've also seen, as we'vekind of evaluated ourselves,
that experience level is allrelative to the group you are
(02:09):
currently talking to.
So you may be the mostexperienced canyoneer in your
circle, but that doesn'tnecessarily mean you're an
expert canyoneer.
So when we were in college, wethought we were like
intermediate canyoneers havingdone 12 canyons because most of
our friends had only done one ortwo Our eyes were opened as we
(02:31):
started attending rendezvous,and we met people who had done a
hundred canyons, and then we metpeople who had led a hundred
canyons, and then people who hadled over a hundred unique
canyons all over the world.
So all of a sudden, our little,frame of reference expanded, and
we saw where we were more in theglobal canyoneering community.
(02:55):
As opposed to just our closefriends.
And that really changed ourperspective of, where we wanted
to go with our skills.
We could see the avenues ofwhere, where we could end up.
And that's kind of what we wantto share with you.
You know, the new year isstarting and we want to have
canyon goals, right?
So what is it that you want todo this year to progress in your
(03:19):
canyoneering journey?
Katie (03:20):
As we were talking about this, we started trying to just
dial in where our friends wereas canyoneers, as we were trying
to invite them on trips andfigure out how we could help,
especially other women to bringup their canyon levels.
We were trying to tease out whatwas missing and where people
were and what kind of a team wewanted to put together for
(03:40):
different goals with differenttrips we were doing.
Something that I thought about alot and finally came up with
this idea is when we're thinkingabout a group of canyoneers and
where somebody is on theircanyoneering journey is to
Imagine a family of fivecanyoneers getting into an SUV.
There's a driver, a co pilot,and three spots in the back.
(04:01):
Let's say that that back seat isfull.
So you've got one middleschooler who's pretty self
sufficient, one elementaryschooler in a booster seat, and
then one little baby in aninfant seat.
With the parents up front,everybody's got their spot and
The driver's ultimatelyresponsible for the safety of
the entire canyoneering family.
As we're thinking about this SUVanalogy, this system is to help
(04:24):
us realize where we are In asport.
So for canyoneering, I'm goingto give you a lot of very
specific information here, but Ialso look at this analogy when
I'm going on other adventures.
I may be a driver in acanyoneering adventure, and I
might be in the infant car seator a booster seat in a rafting
trip, so as we're alladventurers and we love to get
(04:47):
in the outdoors, it's okay to bethe novice, it's okay to be in
the booster seat or the babyseat, all of that's fine, it
just helps us to realize wherewe're at on any given trip so
that we can assess ourselvespersonally and see what kind of
things we can focus on duringthat trip to make it the best
trip for
Carma (05:05):
Right.
And every seat contributes tothe trip.
Everyone has a part.
Katie (05:12):
Exactly.
Let's start out with thosecanyoneering team role
descriptions from leastresponsibility up to most
responsibility.
So let's start with that infantcar seat.
This is a novice.
This person is along for theride.
They're excited to come, butdependent on others.
They need somebody to bucklethem in, pack their bag for them
(05:32):
and are always supervised.
So, this is your first fewcanyons.
Everything's new to you, you'rebright eyed and bushy tailed,
and you follow your friendsbecause they told you it would
be fun.
You need someone else to packyour bag.
You don't really have any ofyour own personal gear yet,
you're trying out the sport, andyou aren't completely invested.
You need help to get yourharness on properly, or double
(05:53):
check it, or to learn thedifference between the auto
lockers and the ones that needto be doubled back.
You need help to rig your repeldevice every time.
You probably need a lot ofcoaching and encouragement for
rappelling, downclimbing, etc.
because you haven't learned howto maneuver your body in this
new environment yet.
You should be rappelling onreleasable rigging and have a
top belay or bottom belay as abackup on every rappel because
(06:15):
you're brand spanking new andyou don't know if you're gonna
freeze or flip upside down orlet go with your brake hand
because you haven't faced thistype of vertical terrain before.
Every single canyoneer startedin this baby car seat.
Some of them just did it inanother rope heavy sport like
climbing or caving ormountaineering.
Nobody starts in the driver'sseat.
It's a totally normal part ofthe progression, and you want to
(06:37):
be a good friend.
If you have someone who's in thebaby seat, you need to be there
encouraging them, excited forthem, asking them how they
learn, and really supportingthem in the way that they need.
Carma (06:46):
Yeah.
And it's a really fun seat to bein, actually.
When I start a new sport I lovepart, like when everything is
new and fresh and you're justpicking up skills like crazy.
It's exciting.
Katie (07:00):
It really is.
And I, I actually justexperienced this like two days
ago.
I work in adaptive sports withWasatch Adaptive Sports.
And we were out at Snowbird SkiResort.
And I was learning how to use amono ski.
For that, it's a sit ski, yousit down in it, and I did not
know where any of the strapswent, you know, we've got straps
(07:22):
to hold you in, and straps incase you need to do an
evacuation off of a chairlift,and I literally had a coworker
of mine strapping me in, in thisnovice position, and it's okay
to tell people that you're inthat space so that you can learn
the basics really well.
Carma (07:36):
I actually like that because literally somebody else
was strapping you into yourdevice because you didn't know
Katie (07:44):
Right.
And then she was followingbehind me and making sure I
didn't tip over and break anarm.
And probably I wouldn't havetipped over and broke an arm or
anything.
It's just, you know, supermellow.
But there was a friend spottingme.
That's the equivalent of abottom belay.
Carma (07:57):
Yeah, and When you're taking friends out who are in
that category, you want them tohave a good time, right?
You want them to come back againand join your canyon team And so
you're gonna do all those extrathings to help them succeed in
their first outings.
After the infant car seat phaseis the booster seat phase.
This is a beginner canyoneer.
(08:18):
So this is like Katie's secondgrader, right?
She can buckle herself in.
She can carry her own backpack,but someone still needs to make
sure she has her mittens and herhomework and that she gets out
the door on time.
She still needs a fair amount ofsupport.
When you're in the booster seatposition, you can put on your
own harness, You can rig yourown rappel device and know how
(08:39):
to add friction on the fly.
And when your leads double checkyou, it's usually correct.
You can go down straightforwardrappels and simple downclimbs
without coaching at this point,but you still like seeing
examples of how to do awkwardstarts and when the downclimbs
get tricky, it's nice if you canwatch somebody else go first.
You are picking up more and moreskills and you're catching the
(09:01):
canyon bug.
You're not a baby anymore, butyou're still gaining
perspective.
You still need someone to helpyou pack your backpack, someone
to tell you whether or notyou're going to need a wetsuit,
and someone to help you startthe canyon on time so that you
can get home by dark.
And you've learned to bag ropeand volunteer to carry the rope,
(09:23):
or at least bring really greatsnacks to share so that you keep
getting invited back.
Katie (09:28):
My second grader loves to share her snacks.
It's not the only reason I bringher.
Carma (09:33):
Doesn't hurt though
Katie (09:35):
no, it doesn't.
then we move on to that backseatpassenger, and there are going
to be a lot of people who stayin this position for a long
time.
We call them an advancedbeginner, but this backseat
passenger is like a middleschooler who can buckle
themselves in, pack their ownbackpack, contribute to group
projects, and the onlydifference is they still rely on
(09:57):
others to make the assignments.
This person in the canyon worldcan take care of themselves on
rope and can even help othersout a little bit.
But they're still relying on theleaders to assign the packing
list, take care of reading thebeta, navigation, rigging,
seasonal variations, annualvariations of water levels, all
of those things they're stillleaving to the leaders.
(10:17):
This person would considerthemselves a canyoneer.
They've invested significanttime and money into the hobby.
And it's because they freakinglove it.
Not only do they pack their ownbackpacks, have all their own
gear, they also contribute tothe group gear when the leader
assigns stuff out.
They can lock off their device,operate a third hands or hands
free backup, and are learninghow to self rescue.
(10:39):
They provide fireman belays forothers, can do partner assists,
they may still need someone togo first on a tricky spot but
they have enough experience tonavigate most of the obstacles
themselves.
Someone in this backseat role islearning the rules of the road
by observation.
It takes time to build up thatexperience in the frame of
reference.
It also takes time to acquirethe gear and to be able to
(11:00):
practice with it and maybeacquire multiple descenders and
decide what they like best.
they help watch over the boosterseat kids and the baby seat
members.
They've already started learningabout anchors, rigging, ropes,
pulls.
They're able to assist the frontseat members in keeping the
group moving safely.
Carma (11:17):
A general recommendation we have for backseat team
members is that until you knowhow to self rescue, it's a good
idea for your leaders to berigging releasable.
That way, if you run into yourfirst big problem on rappel,
your leaders have a quick way tosolve that problem.
Katie (11:35):
So for example, after a hundred canyons and a thousand
rock climbs.
I've had a problem on tworappels.
I have gotten my hair stuck onceback when I was in college.
And I got my hand trapped underthe rope once.
I had to learn how to solve iton my own.
I had to just take that momentand fix it myself.
It would have been a lot nicerif I could have been lowered
and, um, never made that mistakeagain, but those, do come up
(11:57):
sometimes.
Carma (11:57):
Yeah.
And I would say the likelihoodof it coming up is higher when
you're newer in the sport.
Because as you've done, youknow, more and more repels,
you've seen how to avoid havingthat happen.
Or you've also seen other peoplehave one of those things
happens.
Like I feel like we'reconstantly telling our friends,
like, don't trap your hand, youknow, that kind of a thing just
(12:18):
because we've already seen ithappen.
Katie (12:20):
Because you don't have the fear of God put in you yet
to avoid them?
Carma (12:23):
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Katie (12:27):
Until you've seen somebody struggle with it, At
some point it is going to becomea very memorable moment, whether
it was you or a friend in thegroup where you're like, yeah,
I'm never going to let thathappen to me.
Carma (12:38):
Yeah.
Ha Ha ha Right?
Katie (12:40):
Or You figure out why it happens, you know, like
realizing how, that if you havean extended repel, everything's
moving much higher, closer toyour face and your hair, or
realizing that, oh, the placewhere people trap their hands is
when they go over a shelf.
And it happens all the timebecause your body balance sets
you up to probably trap yourhand, unless you consciously
move it around to the top.
(13:01):
but until those start to come asecond nature, until you've seen
it and know why it's happening,then you aren't consciously
avoiding it as well as you willbe after you have those canyon
miles.
Carma (13:11):
The next seat in the SUV is the co pilot and this is what
we would consider theintermediate canyoneer.
Just like on a road trip, the copilot helps the driver read the
maps, watch the hazards on theroad, and check for bad weather
coming up.
The co pilot helps take care ofeverybody else in the backseat.
(13:31):
You, at this point, are reallyassisting the driver.
You've more than just glancedthrough the route description.
You have looked for points oftrouble like falls, stuck ropes,
core shots, and you're activelyworking to mitigate those risks
through hand lines, good pulltechniques, creep in the rope,
and belays for other teammembers.
(13:53):
So when you're at this point,You're not only bringing your
own gear, and contributing togroup gear, but you're able to
read the beta and help determinewhat gear is needed for each
specific canyon.
you are able to rig most rappelson your own.
And when someone double checksyou, there are no critical
errors, just maybe some nuancesyou could improve for the rope
(14:13):
pull, or something along thoselines.
You help the driver interpretthe maps.
You're checking the weather.
You're competent with a fewdifferent rappel devices and
know how to lock them off midrappel.
You perform buddy checks whereyou assist others in gearing up
and rigging their rappel devicescorrectly.
You inspect anchors, build basicanchors, And when your leader
(14:35):
double checks you, there are nocritical errors.
So they're going to trust you ifyou say the webbing looks good,
because you've actuallyinspected it all the way around
that boulder or whatever.
You also have a betterunderstanding of the bigger
picture of the canyon and how toset the pace so that you make
sure your team stays on trackbecause you've seen, the
(14:56):
reasoning behind why you need tokeep the pace going because
you've probably been in a canyonafter dark and it wasn't a super
lot of fun.
You may be reading beta now thatsays that the trickiest, hardest
rappel is at the end of thecanyon.
And that's how it was in IceCube, where the whole group
knew, set the pace because we donot want to be rigging that in
(15:18):
the dark.
It hangs off over the edge of a200 foot drop and you've got to
kind of stem out to the anchor.
We don't want to be rigging thatin the dark.
So everyone knew.
When we say 10 minute lunch, wemean 10 minute lunch.
You know, and keep yeah,definitely.
In the copilot seat, you go downfirst or last, depending on the
type of canyon.
So in the desert, a co leadoften goes down first, because
(15:41):
they can troubleshoot problemson rappel, and they understand
the rigging to be able to tellthe leader if something needs to
be adjusted.
Katie (15:48):
And in an aquatic canyon, the co lead might be at the top.
If they're really good at doingmechanical advantage and
lowering, if they need to, theleader might go down first
through the hairy gnarly stuffand that co pilot might be the
one who's setting the ropelength from the top and doing
what's asked of them by theperson who can see what's going
on.
Carma (16:06):
As a co pilot, you have experience with tricky obstacles
but the buck doesn't stop withyou.
There is still someone moreexperienced than you driving the
vehicle and takingresponsibility for the team, but
you are sharing the load withthem and you're on deck to take
the lead.
If needed.
So when you're at this point,you take ownership of each trip
(16:27):
that you go on.
You don't want to just followthe directions of some other
leader.
You want to understand thereasoning behind the driver's
decisions.
And you've spent time out of thecanyon researching, studying,
and developing your own canyonskills.
Katie (16:43):
And I don't think anybody falls into this position.
This is something you have toactively work for.
And in a lot of canyon teams,unless someone asks to rig a
rappel, no one's going to putthat on you.
So this is a point where, justlike in rock climbing, you have
to ask to take the lead and jumpin.
In canyoning, you have to ask totake the lead on rigging and
(17:05):
say, hey, can I rig that one?
And ask somebody to double checkyou
Carma (17:09):
Yeah, and like Gordie said in our last episode, this
is a point where you really wanta mentor.
a mentor who's going to,actively be teaching you and
helping you to progress in yourskills.
Katie (17:22):
The last position we want to talk about is the driver.
And this is the expert.
This is the crazy friend whoowns the car and through all
their enthusiastic leadershiptakes everyone along for the
ride.
This person assumesresponsibility and safety for
everyone in the car with them.
And their evaluation of theweather, the destination, the
team, is all going to drive thecritical choices along the way.
(17:47):
So, as listed in the name, thedriver often drives the momentum
for the trip.
This is the person who'sscouring the internet day and
night, reading up on canyons andwhere would be awesome to go and
what time of year you'resupposed to go there.
This is oftentimes the personwho throws out the trip plan and
is inviting everyone else.
People are often drawn to thisperson because they're
(18:08):
passionate about canyoneeringand they trust them to keep them
safe.
This person has enough canyonexperience that when they read a
route description they know notonly whether or not they will be
able to safely complete thecanyon, but they also know and
can interpret that for the restof the team members.
If everyone who they're invitingwill be able to get down safely
(18:29):
with their help.
This is the person who has somuch gear that they're loaning
it out so that people in theback seat have a chance to come
along for the ride.
They're filling in the gaps bybeg borrowing or stealing all
the gear to make sure thishappens.
When this person approaches arappel, they can visualize the
potential problems and solutionsfor each of the members in their
team.
They understand the wholeprocess from start to finish,
(18:51):
and they've tested theirtheories on hundreds of rappels
and rigging that other peoplehave checked.
They're confident andcomfortable going first or last
on any rappel in the canyon andthey can switch things up when
they need to.
They have significant outdoorleadership experience in a
canyon so that they can assessconditions and obstacles for
each individual team member andmaybe even some of those
(19:14):
emotional issues that might comeup that they know that being in
a long narrow canyon for a whilemight affect some people or that
They've dealt with frustrationwith somebody and can help
someone navigate that so thatthey don't lose it mid canyon.
They're trained in wildernessfirst aid, rescue scenarios.
They're the ones who carry asatellite communicator and know
(19:36):
its limitations.
Know that it's not just gonnawork everywhere.
And they can clearly see Theroad and mitigate dangers that
might pop up along the way.
This is the person who we allaspire to be as canyoneers, and
we're all on the journey to notonly be able to check all these
boxes for beginner canyons, butthen intermediate canyons and
(19:59):
advanced canyons.
So we're always on the journey.
Carma (20:03):
Yeah.
And nobody starts out in thatdriver's seat.
Everybody's process and timelinefor getting there is very
different.
And you don't want to be thrownstraight into the driver's seat
too quickly because it'sdangerous.
That was something, again, that,Gordy talked about.
Having beginner people leadingother beginners down canyons is
(20:23):
dangerous.
It has caused many injuries.
It has also caused deaths.
So you don't want to be in thedriver's seat too early.
Katie (20:30):
Yeah.
Carma (20:32):
Positions in the car are fluid.
I think Katie mentioned thisearlier.
On a different trip, you'regoing to be in a different
position in the car, in thecanyon.
You might be a driver on yourhome turf, but in a new area,
you're in the back seat, whereyou get to, learn and observe a
little bit more and not be incharge.
Or sometimes Katie has had myback before when I wanted to
(20:53):
come on a canyon and my life wasjust like totally crazy and my
kids were sick and I'm like, Ihave no brain space to plan this
canyon honestly, because my lifeis nuts, but we have each
other's backs and take turnswith some of those
responsibilities so that we canall get into canyons more as
busy humans and busy parents.
(21:13):
So,
Katie (21:14):
I'm like, hey, I already got, two drivers, you know,
Shars coming, I've got somebody,I've got two drivers, you can be
a passenger, that's okay.
And, you know, my first AquaticCanyon, I was like, yeah, show
me what's different.
Show me what mistake I don'twant to make, like, totally open
to learning.
Carma (21:29):
Actually, like, some people will stay in the backseat
as canyoneers for a long time.
And it's probably because it'snot their primary sport.
They're a driver in anothersport.
Maybe they're a driver onrafting trips.
Maybe they're the one leadingtheir mountain biking group.
we have Several friends thatthey aren't the drivers in
canyons, but we're theirpassengers in other situations.
(21:51):
And so it's awesome
Katie (21:52):
I love
Carma (21:53):
right?
Katie (21:54):
Honestly, I cannot afford all the gear for all the sports
that I would love to be a driverin.
And so our friend group kind ofhas specialties and we kind of
lean on some people to do therafting trips and some people to
do the canyon trips and somepeople to put together the back
country ski trips because we'refinding a way to share those
seats so that there's alwaysenough drivers and co pilots so
(22:17):
that we can all go out safelyand enjoy way more recreation
than we'd be able to otherwise.
Carma (22:25):
Hey, Canyon Crew, we need your help to grow the show.
If you learned somethingvaluable from this episode,
please share it with a friend.
You can also help more amazingcanyoneers find the show by
giving us a rating and review onyour favorite podcast listening
app.
Lastly, if you'd like to fundour quest for great canyoneering
content, click on the supportthe show button in the show
(22:48):
notes As always, thanks fordropping in with us.
We'll catch you on the rap side.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
I'm Katie
Carma (00:10):
and I'm Carma and you're listening to, I'd rather be
canyoneering.
Katie (00:14):
We're best friends who totally geek out about canyon
rigging and beautifully slotcanyons.
Basically we'd always rather becanyoneering.
But when we can't, we spendevery spare minute, we have
talking about it.
Carma (00:26):
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
Please seek professionalinstruction and practice
technical skills in a controlledenvironment before entering slot
canyons.
Your safety is entirely your ownresponsibility.
Katie (00:41):
Welcome to our canyon crew! Welcome back everyone.
Today we're going to talk aboutthe progression of a canyoneer.
We want to help you see whereyou're at and where you can go.
Something that we've learnedover the years is that it's not
all about the numbers.
You can have done a lot ofcanyons, but still have beginner
(01:03):
skills.
And you could be fairly new onyour numbers of canyons that
you've completed, but havereally studied the skills to
bring you up to the next level.
We spent a lot of time on thistopic, trying to tease out what
skills belong where.
And it's not always clear wheresomebody fits in on the beginner
to advanced levels.
So we wanted to help you figureout what are the critical skills
(01:25):
that you might be missing insome categories so that you can
move forward.
Carma (01:28):
It takes time to build up experience and a frame of
reference in canyoneering.
So having that time in thecanyon helps you to see how the
things that you learned, liketheoretically, how they actually
play out in real life.
And you need that understandingto be able to interpret beta, to
(01:48):
plan a canyon, and then to goand execute the run through
successfully.
So one of the things we loveabout canyoneering is that there
is always more to learn, nomatter where you are.
And we've also seen, as we'vekind of evaluated ourselves,
that experience level is allrelative to the group you are
(02:09):
currently talking to.
So you may be the mostexperienced canyoneer in your
circle, but that doesn'tnecessarily mean you're an
expert canyoneer.
So when we were in college, wethought we were like
intermediate canyoneers havingdone 12 canyons because most of
our friends had only done one ortwo Our eyes were opened as we
(02:31):
started attending rendezvous,and we met people who had done a
hundred canyons, and then we metpeople who had led a hundred
canyons, and then people who hadled over a hundred unique
canyons all over the world.
So all of a sudden, our little,frame of reference expanded, and
we saw where we were more in theglobal canyoneering community.
(02:55):
As opposed to just our closefriends.
And that really changed ourperspective of, where we wanted
to go with our skills.
We could see the avenues ofwhere, where we could end up.
And that's kind of what we wantto share with you.
You know, the new year isstarting and we want to have
canyon goals, right?
So what is it that you want todo this year to progress in your
(03:19):
canyoneering journey?
Katie (03:20):
As we were talking about this, we started trying to just
dial in where our friends wereas canyoneers, as we were trying
to invite them on trips andfigure out how we could help,
especially other women to bringup their canyon levels.
We were trying to tease out whatwas missing and where people
were and what kind of a team wewanted to put together for
(03:40):
different goals with differenttrips we were doing.
Something that I thought about alot and finally came up with
this idea is when we're thinkingabout a group of canyoneers and
where somebody is on theircanyoneering journey is to
Imagine a family of fivecanyoneers getting into an SUV.
There's a driver, a co pilot,and three spots in the back.
(04:01):
Let's say that that back seat isfull.
So you've got one middleschooler who's pretty self
sufficient, one elementaryschooler in a booster seat, and
then one little baby in aninfant seat.
With the parents up front,everybody's got their spot and
The driver's ultimatelyresponsible for the safety of
the entire canyoneering family.
As we're thinking about this SUVanalogy, this system is to help
(04:24):
us realize where we are In asport.
So for canyoneering, I'm goingto give you a lot of very
specific information here, but Ialso look at this analogy when
I'm going on other adventures.
I may be a driver in acanyoneering adventure, and I
might be in the infant car seator a booster seat in a rafting
trip, so as we're alladventurers and we love to get
(04:47):
in the outdoors, it's okay to bethe novice, it's okay to be in
the booster seat or the babyseat, all of that's fine, it
just helps us to realize wherewe're at on any given trip so
that we can assess ourselvespersonally and see what kind of
things we can focus on duringthat trip to make it the best
trip for
Carma (05:05):
Right.
And every seat contributes tothe trip.
Everyone has a part.
Katie (05:12):
Exactly.
Let's start out with thosecanyoneering team role
descriptions from leastresponsibility up to most
responsibility.
So let's start with that infantcar seat.
This is a novice.
This person is along for theride.
They're excited to come, butdependent on others.
They need somebody to bucklethem in, pack their bag for them
(05:32):
and are always supervised.
So, this is your first fewcanyons.
Everything's new to you, you'rebright eyed and bushy tailed,
and you follow your friendsbecause they told you it would
be fun.
You need someone else to packyour bag.
You don't really have any ofyour own personal gear yet,
you're trying out the sport, andyou aren't completely invested.
You need help to get yourharness on properly, or double
(05:53):
check it, or to learn thedifference between the auto
lockers and the ones that needto be doubled back.
You need help to rig your repeldevice every time.
You probably need a lot ofcoaching and encouragement for
rappelling, downclimbing, etc.
because you haven't learned howto maneuver your body in this
new environment yet.
You should be rappelling onreleasable rigging and have a
top belay or bottom belay as abackup on every rappel because
(06:15):
you're brand spanking new andyou don't know if you're gonna
freeze or flip upside down orlet go with your brake hand
because you haven't faced thistype of vertical terrain before.
Every single canyoneer startedin this baby car seat.
Some of them just did it inanother rope heavy sport like
climbing or caving ormountaineering.
Nobody starts in the driver'sseat.
It's a totally normal part ofthe progression, and you want to
(06:37):
be a good friend.
If you have someone who's in thebaby seat, you need to be there
encouraging them, excited forthem, asking them how they
learn, and really supportingthem in the way that they need.
Carma (06:46):
Yeah.
And it's a really fun seat to bein, actually.
When I start a new sport I lovepart, like when everything is
new and fresh and you're justpicking up skills like crazy.
It's exciting.
Katie (07:00):
It really is.
And I, I actually justexperienced this like two days
ago.
I work in adaptive sports withWasatch Adaptive Sports.
And we were out at Snowbird SkiResort.
And I was learning how to use amono ski.
For that, it's a sit ski, yousit down in it, and I did not
know where any of the strapswent, you know, we've got straps
(07:22):
to hold you in, and straps incase you need to do an
evacuation off of a chairlift,and I literally had a coworker
of mine strapping me in, in thisnovice position, and it's okay
to tell people that you're inthat space so that you can learn
the basics really well.
Carma (07:36):
I actually like that because literally somebody else
was strapping you into yourdevice because you didn't know
Katie (07:44):
Right.
And then she was followingbehind me and making sure I
didn't tip over and break anarm.
And probably I wouldn't havetipped over and broke an arm or
anything.
It's just, you know, supermellow.
But there was a friend spottingme.
That's the equivalent of abottom belay.
Carma (07:57):
Yeah, and When you're taking friends out who are in
that category, you want them tohave a good time, right?
You want them to come back againand join your canyon team And so
you're gonna do all those extrathings to help them succeed in
their first outings.
After the infant car seat phaseis the booster seat phase.
This is a beginner canyoneer.
(08:18):
So this is like Katie's secondgrader, right?
She can buckle herself in.
She can carry her own backpack,but someone still needs to make
sure she has her mittens and herhomework and that she gets out
the door on time.
She still needs a fair amount ofsupport.
When you're in the booster seatposition, you can put on your
own harness, You can rig yourown rappel device and know how
(08:39):
to add friction on the fly.
And when your leads double checkyou, it's usually correct.
You can go down straightforwardrappels and simple downclimbs
without coaching at this point,but you still like seeing
examples of how to do awkwardstarts and when the downclimbs
get tricky, it's nice if you canwatch somebody else go first.
You are picking up more and moreskills and you're catching the
(09:01):
canyon bug.
You're not a baby anymore, butyou're still gaining
perspective.
You still need someone to helpyou pack your backpack, someone
to tell you whether or notyou're going to need a wetsuit,
and someone to help you startthe canyon on time so that you
can get home by dark.
And you've learned to bag ropeand volunteer to carry the rope,
(09:23):
or at least bring really greatsnacks to share so that you keep
getting invited back.
Katie (09:28):
My second grader loves to share her snacks.
It's not the only reason I bringher.
Carma (09:33):
Doesn't hurt though
Katie (09:35):
no, it doesn't.
then we move on to that backseatpassenger, and there are going
to be a lot of people who stayin this position for a long
time.
We call them an advancedbeginner, but this backseat
passenger is like a middleschooler who can buckle
themselves in, pack their ownbackpack, contribute to group
projects, and the onlydifference is they still rely on
(09:57):
others to make the assignments.
This person in the canyon worldcan take care of themselves on
rope and can even help othersout a little bit.
But they're still relying on theleaders to assign the packing
list, take care of reading thebeta, navigation, rigging,
seasonal variations, annualvariations of water levels, all
of those things they're stillleaving to the leaders.
(10:17):
This person would considerthemselves a canyoneer.
They've invested significanttime and money into the hobby.
And it's because they freakinglove it.
Not only do they pack their ownbackpacks, have all their own
gear, they also contribute tothe group gear when the leader
assigns stuff out.
They can lock off their device,operate a third hands or hands
free backup, and are learninghow to self rescue.
(10:39):
They provide fireman belays forothers, can do partner assists,
they may still need someone togo first on a tricky spot but
they have enough experience tonavigate most of the obstacles
themselves.
Someone in this backseat role islearning the rules of the road
by observation.
It takes time to build up thatexperience in the frame of
reference.
It also takes time to acquirethe gear and to be able to
(11:00):
practice with it and maybeacquire multiple descenders and
decide what they like best.
they help watch over the boosterseat kids and the baby seat
members.
They've already started learningabout anchors, rigging, ropes,
pulls.
They're able to assist the frontseat members in keeping the
group moving safely.
Carma (11:17):
A general recommendation we have for backseat team
members is that until you knowhow to self rescue, it's a good
idea for your leaders to berigging releasable.
That way, if you run into yourfirst big problem on rappel,
your leaders have a quick way tosolve that problem.
Katie (11:35):
So for example, after a hundred canyons and a thousand
rock climbs.
I've had a problem on tworappels.
I have gotten my hair stuck onceback when I was in college.
And I got my hand trapped underthe rope once.
I had to learn how to solve iton my own.
I had to just take that momentand fix it myself.
It would have been a lot nicerif I could have been lowered
and, um, never made that mistakeagain, but those, do come up
(11:57):
sometimes.
Carma (11:57):
Yeah.
And I would say the likelihoodof it coming up is higher when
you're newer in the sport.
Because as you've done, youknow, more and more repels,
you've seen how to avoid havingthat happen.
Or you've also seen other peoplehave one of those things
happens.
Like I feel like we'reconstantly telling our friends,
like, don't trap your hand, youknow, that kind of a thing just
(12:18):
because we've already seen ithappen.
Katie (12:20):
Because you don't have the fear of God put in you yet
to avoid them?
Carma (12:23):
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Katie (12:27):
Until you've seen somebody struggle with it, At
some point it is going to becomea very memorable moment, whether
it was you or a friend in thegroup where you're like, yeah,
I'm never going to let thathappen to me.
Carma (12:38):
Yeah.
Ha Ha ha Right?
Katie (12:40):
Or You figure out why it happens, you know, like
realizing how, that if you havean extended repel, everything's
moving much higher, closer toyour face and your hair, or
realizing that, oh, the placewhere people trap their hands is
when they go over a shelf.
And it happens all the timebecause your body balance sets
you up to probably trap yourhand, unless you consciously
move it around to the top.
(13:01):
but until those start to come asecond nature, until you've seen
it and know why it's happening,then you aren't consciously
avoiding it as well as you willbe after you have those canyon
miles.
Carma (13:11):
The next seat in the SUV is the co pilot and this is what
we would consider theintermediate canyoneer.
Just like on a road trip, the copilot helps the driver read the
maps, watch the hazards on theroad, and check for bad weather
coming up.
The co pilot helps take care ofeverybody else in the backseat.
(13:31):
You, at this point, are reallyassisting the driver.
You've more than just glancedthrough the route description.
You have looked for points oftrouble like falls, stuck ropes,
core shots, and you're activelyworking to mitigate those risks
through hand lines, good pulltechniques, creep in the rope,
and belays for other teammembers.
(13:53):
So when you're at this point,You're not only bringing your
own gear, and contributing togroup gear, but you're able to
read the beta and help determinewhat gear is needed for each
specific canyon.
you are able to rig most rappelson your own.
And when someone double checksyou, there are no critical
errors, just maybe some nuancesyou could improve for the rope
(14:13):
pull, or something along thoselines.
You help the driver interpretthe maps.
You're checking the weather.
You're competent with a fewdifferent rappel devices and
know how to lock them off midrappel.
You perform buddy checks whereyou assist others in gearing up
and rigging their rappel devicescorrectly.
You inspect anchors, build basicanchors, And when your leader
(14:35):
double checks you, there are nocritical errors.
So they're going to trust you ifyou say the webbing looks good,
because you've actuallyinspected it all the way around
that boulder or whatever.
You also have a betterunderstanding of the bigger
picture of the canyon and how toset the pace so that you make
sure your team stays on trackbecause you've seen, the
(14:56):
reasoning behind why you need tokeep the pace going because
you've probably been in a canyonafter dark and it wasn't a super
lot of fun.
You may be reading beta now thatsays that the trickiest, hardest
rappel is at the end of thecanyon.
And that's how it was in IceCube, where the whole group
knew, set the pace because we donot want to be rigging that in
(15:18):
the dark.
It hangs off over the edge of a200 foot drop and you've got to
kind of stem out to the anchor.
We don't want to be rigging thatin the dark.
So everyone knew.
When we say 10 minute lunch, wemean 10 minute lunch.
You know, and keep yeah,definitely.
In the copilot seat, you go downfirst or last, depending on the
type of canyon.
So in the desert, a co leadoften goes down first, because
(15:41):
they can troubleshoot problemson rappel, and they understand
the rigging to be able to tellthe leader if something needs to
be adjusted.
Katie (15:48):
And in an aquatic canyon, the co lead might be at the top.
If they're really good at doingmechanical advantage and
lowering, if they need to, theleader might go down first
through the hairy gnarly stuffand that co pilot might be the
one who's setting the ropelength from the top and doing
what's asked of them by theperson who can see what's going
on.
Carma (16:06):
As a co pilot, you have experience with tricky obstacles
but the buck doesn't stop withyou.
There is still someone moreexperienced than you driving the
vehicle and takingresponsibility for the team, but
you are sharing the load withthem and you're on deck to take
the lead.
If needed.
So when you're at this point,you take ownership of each trip
(16:27):
that you go on.
You don't want to just followthe directions of some other
leader.
You want to understand thereasoning behind the driver's
decisions.
And you've spent time out of thecanyon researching, studying,
and developing your own canyonskills.
Katie (16:43):
And I don't think anybody falls into this position.
This is something you have toactively work for.
And in a lot of canyon teams,unless someone asks to rig a
rappel, no one's going to putthat on you.
So this is a point where, justlike in rock climbing, you have
to ask to take the lead and jumpin.
In canyoning, you have to ask totake the lead on rigging and
(17:05):
say, hey, can I rig that one?
And ask somebody to double checkyou
Carma (17:09):
Yeah, and like Gordie said in our last episode, this
is a point where you really wanta mentor.
a mentor who's going to,actively be teaching you and
helping you to progress in yourskills.
Katie (17:22):
The last position we want to talk about is the driver.
And this is the expert.
This is the crazy friend whoowns the car and through all
their enthusiastic leadershiptakes everyone along for the
ride.
This person assumesresponsibility and safety for
everyone in the car with them.
And their evaluation of theweather, the destination, the
team, is all going to drive thecritical choices along the way.
(17:47):
So, as listed in the name, thedriver often drives the momentum
for the trip.
This is the person who'sscouring the internet day and
night, reading up on canyons andwhere would be awesome to go and
what time of year you'resupposed to go there.
This is oftentimes the personwho throws out the trip plan and
is inviting everyone else.
People are often drawn to thisperson because they're
(18:08):
passionate about canyoneeringand they trust them to keep them
safe.
This person has enough canyonexperience that when they read a
route description they know notonly whether or not they will be
able to safely complete thecanyon, but they also know and
can interpret that for the restof the team members.
If everyone who they're invitingwill be able to get down safely
(18:29):
with their help.
This is the person who has somuch gear that they're loaning
it out so that people in theback seat have a chance to come
along for the ride.
They're filling in the gaps bybeg borrowing or stealing all
the gear to make sure thishappens.
When this person approaches arappel, they can visualize the
potential problems and solutionsfor each of the members in their
team.
They understand the wholeprocess from start to finish,
(18:51):
and they've tested theirtheories on hundreds of rappels
and rigging that other peoplehave checked.
They're confident andcomfortable going first or last
on any rappel in the canyon andthey can switch things up when
they need to.
They have significant outdoorleadership experience in a
canyon so that they can assessconditions and obstacles for
each individual team member andmaybe even some of those
(19:14):
emotional issues that might comeup that they know that being in
a long narrow canyon for a whilemight affect some people or that
They've dealt with frustrationwith somebody and can help
someone navigate that so thatthey don't lose it mid canyon.
They're trained in wildernessfirst aid, rescue scenarios.
They're the ones who carry asatellite communicator and know
(19:36):
its limitations.
Know that it's not just gonnawork everywhere.
And they can clearly see Theroad and mitigate dangers that
might pop up along the way.
This is the person who we allaspire to be as canyoneers, and
we're all on the journey to notonly be able to check all these
boxes for beginner canyons, butthen intermediate canyons and
(19:59):
advanced canyons.
So we're always on the journey.
Carma (20:03):
Yeah.
And nobody starts out in thatdriver's seat.
Everybody's process and timelinefor getting there is very
different.
And you don't want to be thrownstraight into the driver's seat
too quickly because it'sdangerous.
That was something, again, that,Gordy talked about.
Having beginner people leadingother beginners down canyons is
(20:23):
dangerous.
It has caused many injuries.
It has also caused deaths.
So you don't want to be in thedriver's seat too early.
Katie (20:30):
Yeah.
Carma (20:32):
Positions in the car are fluid.
I think Katie mentioned thisearlier.
On a different trip, you'regoing to be in a different
position in the car, in thecanyon.
You might be a driver on yourhome turf, but in a new area,
you're in the back seat, whereyou get to, learn and observe a
little bit more and not be incharge.
Or sometimes Katie has had myback before when I wanted to
(20:53):
come on a canyon and my life wasjust like totally crazy and my
kids were sick and I'm like, Ihave no brain space to plan this
canyon honestly, because my lifeis nuts, but we have each
other's backs and take turnswith some of those
responsibilities so that we canall get into canyons more as
busy humans and busy parents.
(21:13):
So,
Katie (21:14):
I'm like, hey, I already got, two drivers, you know,
Shars coming, I've got somebody,I've got two drivers, you can be
a passenger, that's okay.
And, you know, my first AquaticCanyon, I was like, yeah, show
me what's different.
Show me what mistake I don'twant to make, like, totally open
to learning.
Carma (21:29):
Actually, like, some people will stay in the backseat
as canyoneers for a long time.
And it's probably because it'snot their primary sport.
They're a driver in anothersport.
Maybe they're a driver onrafting trips.
Maybe they're the one leadingtheir mountain biking group.
we have Several friends thatthey aren't the drivers in
canyons, but we're theirpassengers in other situations.
(21:51):
And so it's awesome
Katie (21:52):
I love
Carma (21:53):
right?
Katie (21:54):
Honestly, I cannot afford all the gear for all the sports
that I would love to be a driverin.
And so our friend group kind ofhas specialties and we kind of
lean on some people to do therafting trips and some people to
do the canyon trips and somepeople to put together the back
country ski trips because we'refinding a way to share those
seats so that there's alwaysenough drivers and co pilots so
(22:17):
that we can all go out safelyand enjoy way more recreation
than we'd be able to otherwise.
Carma (22:25):
Hey, Canyon Crew, we need your help to grow the show.
If you learned somethingvaluable from this episode,
please share it with a friend.
You can also help more amazingcanyoneers find the show by
giving us a rating and review onyour favorite podcast listening
app.
Lastly, if you'd like to fundour quest for great canyoneering
content, click on the supportthe show button in the show
(22:48):
notes As always, thanks fordropping in with us.
We'll catch you on the rap side.
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