August 6, 2024 • 30 mins
Now that you know which seat of the SUV you're in, find out what skills you should be working on to level up your canyoneering skills.
*Bonus: canyoneering descender user manuals
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katie (00:08):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
I'm Katie
Carma (00:10):
and I'm Carma and you're listening to, I'd rather be
canyoneering.
Katie (00:14):
We're best friends who totally geek out about canyon
rigging and beautifully slotcanyons.
Basically we'd always rather becanyoneering.
But when we can't, we spendevery spare minute, we have
talking about it.
Carma (00:26):
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
Please seek professionalinstruction and practice
technical skills in a controlledenvironment before entering slot
canyons.
Your safety is entirely your ownresponsibility.
Katie (00:41):
Welcome to our canyon crew! Welcome back, everyone.
We are on the second episode ofa two part series here, and we
are talking about judging ourfriends and ourselves and
everyone on our team.
Karma and I have found the spacewhere it is nice to be able to
(01:01):
classify some friends when we'regoing on trips and get the
balance right on our teams.
So you obviously wouldn't want aton of beginners going with only
one person who's seasoned, or aton of beginners with an
intermediate person.
So we came up with a littleanalogy to help us see where
everyone is on the scale,including ourselves, and it is
our SUV analogy.
(01:22):
So just to get everybody caughtup, there are five people in our
4Runner, and we've got a driverin the front, who's the leader
of the trip.
We've got a co pilot who helpsto do all the planning and in
the back seats, we go from aninfant seat where they need
everything done for them to abooster seat, someone who's
learning the ropes, doing prettywell and up to kind of a teenage
(01:44):
passenger who can do almosteverything for themselves, but
still need to be checked off.
In this episode, we're going tolook at what things we can do to
progress from one seat to thenext, and we'll have a bunch of
tips on how to do that.
Carma (01:59):
So our number one suggestion when you're wanting
to advance between differentseats in the SUV and progress in
your canyoneering is to take aclass.
It's the most efficient way toget better.
And honestly, you're going tolearn things correctly the first
time so that you can be makinggood habits and you're going to
find out the reasoning behindwhy your instructors are
(02:22):
teaching you to do these things.
So what we're going to talkabout now is after you've taken
a class, these are some of thethings that you can work on in
Canyon with your mentor toprogress, and we'll go through
each of the different seats inthe SUV and some suggestions we
have, specifically what skillsyou should be working on.
Katie (02:41):
So again, we'll start with the the most beginner the
infant car seat and If you arein that spot where someone is
doing your harness for you everytime and doing your repel
device.
Those are the first two steps tolearn how to do those yourself.
Go ahead and look at yourspecific harness and look online
for what the manufacturer sayson how to adjust it properly.
(03:04):
Get to know your harness reallywell, and then also, learn how
to rig your own rappel device sothat you know what it should
look like.
You get it right 100 percent ofthe time.
You can sit and practice that infront of the TV with a length of
six foot rope from REI.
Carma (03:18):
But what you can't practice in front of your TV is
developing some more grit.
So if you have not spent muchtime in the backcountry, then
you may need to start gettingcomfortable with being
uncomfortable.
This is kind of an intangiblequality that Katie and I have
talked about, Canyon crewmembers someone can be less
(03:42):
experienced, but if they haveawesome grit, we'll take them
into places that we wouldn'totherwise take them because we
know that they have proventhemselves to be good teammates
when things get hard.
To train yourself and increaseyour grit, go out into the back
country and other venues and dohard things.
(04:05):
Honestly, get dirty, get someadventure marks, and, be up for
helping when things get tough.
Katie (04:14):
Yeah, absolutely amazing quality to have in a canyon
partner.
There have definitely beenpeople who've come on trips who
it may be been their first orsecond canyon and we were doing
a more intense canyon.
But I knew this person had somereally good grit because of
climb the Tetons with them orI've gone on a three day
backpacking trip with them andthey got blisters and they
didn't whine about it the wholetime.
(04:35):
Um, like that kind of grit.
Just being cold or having towait out a storm, those things
become a real asset to the teamwhen things don't go exactly as
you'd planned.
And it's really hard for thingsto go exactly as you'd planned
in a canyon that you've neverbeen in before.
Carma (04:49):
Yeah, that's so true.
So moving on to the booster seatposition, Some of the things
that you could be doing toprogress and contribute to your
team is when you're going out,start bringing a pack that's big
enough to help carry the rope.
Also.
Katie (05:06):
don't show up with a little mountain biking bladder
and that's it.
that's not fair to the rest ofthe
Carma (05:12):
so I have a friend who calls those hot chick packs
because the only ones who canget away with carrying teeny
little packs are hot chickswhere the dudes will carry all
the crap because they just wantthe hot chick to come.
So stop bringing a hot chickpack and bring an actual
Katie (05:28):
A gear
Carma (05:29):
gear pack so you can help carry group crap.
Anyway, also, um, learn how tobag rope.
I guarantee you, whoever'sleading you will be happy to
teach you how to bag rope.
It actually is a really good wayto warm up if you're getting
cold in a canyon.
So you should already know howto rig your own rappel device
(05:49):
correctly.
Now you want to start learningsome of these, other skills with
your rappel device.
Learning how to correctly addfriction.
You want to know how to lock offyour device.
And you can find that by lookingat, the manufacturer's
information that came with yourrappel device.
if you don't have those, you canfind those online and we can
even include them again in, ourpodcast notes, but, on there
(06:12):
it'll also show you ways to addfriction and it'll show you ways
to lock it off, and so practicethose skills and know them
really well for your own device.
Katie (06:21):
And if that paper is confusing you, reach out to a
friend who has that same deviceand just ask to take a video of
how to do it.
sometimes those papers are hardto read and there's, there are
YouTube videos out there andyou're like, Oh, it's just that.
I mean, I remember that when Iwas trying to decide if I wanted
to buy a squirrel or not.
And I was like, I don't knowthat lock off looks kind of
tricky.
I don't know.
(06:42):
There's a lot of arrows.
And, uh, and then Karma waslike, it's not that hard.
You do this.
Back and forth, back and forth,and now you're done.
So, like, the way that sheshowed me, I was like, oh,
that's easy, compared to tryingto interpret a lot of arrows can
sometimes just be a little bitof a
Carma (06:57):
yeah,
Katie (06:58):
and a lot of times the manufacturers have videos on it,
too.
Carma (07:01):
Yep.
And then another thing you canbe working on is learning how to
operate a third hand or a handsfree backup.
So there's a lot of differentoptions for that, using a VT
Prusik or a Hollowblock.
Learn how to do that becausethat's a skill you're going to
need, eventually when you'regetting to the point where you
can start going down first.
Katie (07:22):
Yeah.
And rock climbers.
This is a good time to ask yourfriends who've been in the
canyoneering world a little bitlonger.
If they have any other advicefor what to use for a hands free
backup, this is a really coolplace to learn a few extras to
add to your toolkit.
Carma (07:40):
You're also going to want to learn to recognize the
differences between commonsingle strand and double strand
rigging, so that when you walkup to the repel, you can know
how to evaluate which side ofthe rope you should be getting
yourself onto, in order to repelsafely.
Katie (07:57):
The last passenger in the back row is our teenager.
They're mostly self sufficientand pretty confident.
However, the difference betweenthe front seat and the back
seats is that the front seatteam members, like the driver
and co pilot, make decisionsthat will affect the safety of
the entire group, like riggingand pulling the rope to ensure
it doesn't get stuck.
Someone in the teenager positiondoesn't yet have the experience
(08:19):
to make those decisions, so ifyou're in the teenager position,
here are our recommendations foryou.
You need to start acquiring yourown gear so you can get to know
it really well and practice withit at home.
and kind of diversifying it.
Try out a few different items,and then go ahead and learn
about other harnesses so thatyou know the difference between
the two types, which.
Most of them are auto lockingnow, but every once in a while
(08:39):
you'll see one that has to bedoubled back and you need to see
that C shaped for closed.
If you don't know the differencebetween those two, go ahead and
look that up so that you canstart to recognize them just in
case someone shows up with anold school harness.
Do buddy checks for others.
If you are checking yourselfevery time you have one Canyon's
worth of experience, when youfinish, if you double check
(09:00):
other people, you're going todouble and triple your
experience of checking repeldevices as people are going
down.
Also learned a fireman belayothers and ask how to do proper
partner assists.
Learn to self rescue and to godown first.
maybe mock going down first byhaving somebody be a backup, but
you treating it like you're thefirst one down.
(09:20):
Learn to inspect the anchors bystepping up.
Ask somebody what they'relooking at.
Ask somebody what they'rechecking for.
If the webbing looks really new,ask them why they're looking
through the back and you mightlearn something about, you know,
mice chewing holes and stuff.
Ask somebody if they decide tocut the webbing, why they did
and why they replaced it thistime.
Handle that stuff.
Really get a feel for it.
Carma (09:41):
And while you're up there at the front, ask the person
who's rigging to show you howthey're rigging and why they're
choosing to rig that way.
There are some things that whenyou're watching someone rig are
obvious, but there are otherthings that you're not going to
catch unless they explain to youwhy they're making the choices
that they are and what thingsthey're trying to avoid by
(10:03):
making that choice.
So by letting them know thatyou're trying to learn, they
have an opportunity to explainto you the nuances of the
rigging that they've alreadylearned as far as certain
details of maybe which directionthey want to place the block,
Whether it's down canyon or upcanyon or if they're doing a
certain tie off on their figureeight to avoid having extra
(10:25):
loops of rope getting caught inthe bushes or something like
that.
So you really get thatopportunity to hear the why
behind it and you have anopportunity to ask questions.
So there if there's somethingyou don't understand you can say
well why Why does it look thatway this time and it looked a
different way another time?
You know, you have that learningopportunity between you and the
(10:47):
rigger to get down to the nittygritty with them.
Katie (10:51):
Other things you can do is that teenage passenger is to
start reading beta for thecanyons before and after you do
them so that you can see if yourinterpretation matched the
reality of the canyon.
You can also try navigating inthe field based on the beta.
Ask yourself what choices arecoming up ahead and make a
decision about what you think isthe right path before the leader
shows you the way.
(11:12):
Also, watch other team members,and start recognizing risks for
people less skilled than youare, so you can help protect the
team.
Watch when somebody does atricky down climb who is less
experienced than you, and see ifthe leaders set up hand line or
a top belay, and see how theirfeet do.
Just kind of get a feel for ifsomebody hikes this way, they
(11:33):
might down climb that way.
And if they slip on this kind ofenvironment, then we probably
need to protect them up at thisrepel.
Those kinds of things whereyou're starting to anticipate.
That's what the backseatpassenger needs to work on.
As we've talked about, there's ahuge jump between the back seat
and the front seat.
So the co pilot is responsiblefor knowing a lot of extra
(11:55):
information.
You need a good generalbackground of the outdoors,
which means you're going to needto know medical safety and first
aid, permitting processes,weather, watersheds.
So get a general understandingof those basic outdoor elements
as part of your foundationalskills to becoming a co pilot
and eventually a driver.
Carma (12:16):
If you're in the co pilot seat already, some of the things
that you can do to help progressto be a driver is to participate
in the trip planning.
So look at all the beta and tryto interpret it yourself as if
you were going to be the driverand then share what you find
with the driver.
So read it all yourself, kind ofsynthesize it in your mind, and
(12:39):
then try to tell the driver, asif you were the trip leader, and
then have them give you thatfeedback of like, hey, so I also
noticed that at this criticaljunction or at this repel, we
may want to do something else.
And so they're going to be ableto fill in where you missed
something, or they may help youfocus on what is the most
important part of what you justread, the part that really,
(13:02):
changes things for the team.
Also assist the driver incoordinating with all the
members of your team.
So help with that load ofcommunicating about the Canyon
and, setting the logistics up ofwho's got what gear and what
cars are we going to need to goto these different canyons?
Where are we going to camp?
Things like that to help make atrip come together and take some
(13:25):
of that load off of the driver.
Katie (13:27):
Absolutely.
Carma (13:28):
As the co pilot, you're already thinking about not only
how to set up an anchor, butwhat needs to be done to
retrieve the rope successfully.
Katie (13:36):
as you're going down rappel, you can start to pretend
that you are the last persondown and practice setting that
rope for the pull like you areactually going to pull it.
I've had Karma do this beforewhere I had her go down as if
she was the last person down,but really she was second to
last.
And then I came down after herand said, I changed this part
(13:58):
because I thought it was goingto get snagged on that little V
slot right there.
Watch that next time.
Watch for V slots.
But by doing that, you canreally get some good feedback
pretending you're the lastperson down.
Every time.
Carma (14:10):
That was really helpful because you're doing that skill,
practicing it, but in a lowpressure situation.
And now what you can do isactually get some real
experience going down lastwhere, it really is the buck
stopping with you on the ropepull.
And one of the things you can dois talk it out with your mentor,
(14:30):
with your driver, who's alreadygone down to the bottom of
rappel.
You can talk through the stepsof what you're doing.
Like, okay, I am removing thesafety.
I am clipping the rope tomyself.
I am laying the rope away fromthat rope groove.
So you can.
Have kind of those auditorydouble checks from them, even
though you actually are gettingthat chance to be the last
(14:52):
person down.
Katie (14:53):
Absolutely.
And I would, again, like Karmasaying, do this with a mentor
who one can talk you through itfrom the bottom.
And if this is a canyon wherethere's a bunch of long repels,
you can bring some radio so thatcommunication is super solid.
And also a mentor who maybe canhelp you fix something if you
make a mistake, you know, likeif you forget to take the safety
off, and you came down a repelthat's now fixed, you're gonna
(15:17):
want to have somebody on theteam who knows how to ascend
back up and fix that.
you know, if ideally, if theanchors are strong enough.
But pick and choose the onesthat you're gonna go down last
on, and get that experiencewith.
You know, the first time thatI'm really being the last one
down, I'd prefer to go off abunch of bolts, because there's
a lot more options to fixthings, and work my way up to
more marginal anchors.
Carma (15:36):
And it's the same kind of progression with all the skills
that you're going to belearning.
So you're going to start withthe simple things and then
progress to the more complicatedthings with your mentor by your
side.
So you've learned how to rig,Simple repels now start learning
how to rig the more complicatedones.
Start incorporating courtesyrigging and rigging for simple
(15:57):
rescue scenarios.
Learn the basics of mechanicaladvantage and memorize your
favorite like three to one setupand carry the gear on your
harness to be able to do thatand practice how to do those
simple things quickly so thatthey come naturally to you when
you need them.
And then progress to learning,more complicated mechanical
advantage scenarios and learnhow to ascend and practice
(16:21):
ascending so that you can figureout exactly what pieces of gear
work the best for you.
I know I have personallymodified my equipment a bunch
with that.
What I thought I wanted to use.
Once I practiced, I had to dialthat in and I learned that.
Some combinations don't fittogether very well.
So, for example, I waspracticing ascending in the
(16:43):
climbing gym, and I was using arope man as my rope grab that
had my foot loop on it, so therope grab on the top, and then I
was using my microtractionattached to my harness as my
bottom rope grab.
And so, uh, As I started goingup the rope, I realized I got a
few feet off the ground, and allof a sudden I came to a halt,
(17:06):
and I looked at my rope man andmy microtraction, and they were
touching, they were sittingright on top of each other, and
the rope man has a little pieceof cable at the bottom of it
that you have to use to likepull down to disengage the cam
so that you can
Katie (17:21):
Oh no!
Carma (17:22):
And that little piece of cable had gotten sucked into the
pulley part of my microtractionand I came to a complete stop.
Katie (17:31):
What did,you do?
Carma (17:33):
Luckily I was on a top belay because we were at the
climbing gym, but I grabbed athird rope grab and put it above
everything else so that I couldtake off all of my stuck gear.
And that's when I realized likethat combination doesn't work
well together.
Katie (17:49):
Oh man.
Well, I'm glad you figured thatout, not in a canyon.
Carma (17:52):
Yeah, definitely.
Katie (17:54):
what I would really advise is if you are wanting to
get into this driver's seat, goout with a bunch of drivers.
go out with a bunch of peoplewho are at this advanced level,
who are capable of leading othergroups.
And if that is your group thatyou're going out with, you're
going to have five mentors withyou.
You're going to be able to stepinto this position probably the
most smoothly with at least onementor, but maybe a group of
(18:17):
mentors.
Carma (18:17):
Yeah, ask a lot of questions.
Katie (18:20):
And ask to be critiqued.
Ask to rig something and ask tobe critiqued on it.
Ask to get advice and to let,,people who know what they're
doing give you pointers andnuances and really polish what
you're doing.
Carma (18:34):
Right.
Katie (18:35):
And the driver is also somebody who needs to be
critiqued.
So once you've kind of reachedwhere you're feeling like I'm a
driver, I know what I'm doing.
It is now your job to seek outpeople who are better than you
to continue to progress.
Some really good places to lookfor information here are to go
take a class on something thatyou are not well versed in.
(18:55):
If you are really interested inrescue rigging, go and get that
polished up.
Also go out with other drivers,people who are, Leading canyons,
other places, see what they'reusing.
See what they're doingdifferently than you let them
critique you.
Let them look at your riggingand see if they have any insight
to what you're doing and howthey might do something
differently.
Also, you're going to have to bereally involved in the canyon
(19:17):
community.
You know, there's a lot ofreally good information coming
from other canyoning groupsright now.
There's information and new bestpractices being established all
the time coming from our friendsin Europe and Australia, New
Zealand, all over the place.
They're adding to what we knowand the progression of a canyon
and new bolting techniques.
Um, putting in temporary boltsis an idea.
(19:39):
You've also got.
information coming out from thecompanies who produce all of the
devices, or from the ropecompanies, where we may have
learned something about semistatic ropes, or we might have
learned that the piranha is notgoing to mix with the dual
sheath ropes, and that that's nolonger advised to do it that
way, or that there's a new waythat's going to be a better
(20:01):
rigging technique.
I've seen some things come outrecently with the totem and ways
that when you're doing a lower,there can be an auto lock set up
on that.
So there's always newinformation coming in.
And if you're going to setyourself up as that driver is
that leader, then you definitelyneed to be interacting with
other drivers and other leadersto make sure that you're keeping
up with best practices andconstantly stepping up your
(20:22):
game.
And.
Some of the best places to go dothat is to go with other leaders
at a rendezvous.
That's one of the best places tomeet other leaders and also to
meet around the campfire afteryou've run some canyons and talk
through some scenarios, you canget a lot of really good insight
by going to rendezvous andconnecting with other leaders.
Carma (20:41):
I completely agree.
I just went to my firstrendezvous up in Seattle.
It was the Pacific Northwestrendezvous put on by the
Mountaineers.
And I have to say, I was veryimpressed with the caliber of
canyoneers that were leadingthose canyons.
And going there, having been aleader in a lot of canyons in
(21:02):
the desert, but not having beena leader.
In any class C canyons, I wasblown away where I was like,
man, I got to step up my game.
There is so much more to learn.
And, it was really a neatexperience to get to be in one
of those backseat positionsagain, and just be responsible
(21:22):
for myself at that point,because I was not used to the
swift water.
It was a lot stronger thananything else I've ever been in,
but I was very confident in theleadership that I had, and it
was an awesome learningopportunity and a great place to
network with other people whojust are super involved in the
sport and know a ton aboutwhat's going on in the
(21:42):
community.
Katie (21:43):
And one thing I think is really cool is when a leader
talks to a leader, You alreadyspeak the same language.
And so you can get right to themeat of it right away on why
someone chose to do something acertain way.
And with that, I feel like wegrow even faster when leaders
get to talk to leaders.
Carma (21:59):
Yeah, for example, we were talking to another one of
the leaders at the PNWrendezvous and we were just
asking him, why did you chooseto do like that transcript?
Daisy chain or European finishon the releasable figure eight.
And he was telling us thatthere's times when he has wanted
to be able to release the anchorand not have to be standing
(22:21):
right up next to the bolts, butbe able to be like five or six
feet away from it and still beable to release the anchor and
to control the lowering ofsomeone.
So that was, like an awesomedetail and nuance to learn about
why you would choose that lockoff that we wouldn't have had
the opportunity to find out ifwe're not going with other
people who have a lot of leadingexperience.
Katie (22:42):
and he was standing five or six feet below it because of
the terrain of the canyon.
So it was a really good exampleto see we were both there.
Carma (22:50):
it was really nice to see it in action.
Katie (22:53):
Hopefully after hearing about these different seats in
the car, you can kind of picturewhere you are with your own
group and where you are maybe inthe general canyoning community
now.
And at any of these levels, whenyou're trying to move up, you
can do a test with a moreexperienced person where you
say, Hey, I want to work ondoing this on my own, can you
just watch me and don't sayanything unless I make a
(23:13):
critical error and I'll tell youwhen I'm ready for my check and
that way you can talk throughobstacles and you can work on
your rigging and have somebodylook at it one skill at a time
instead of feeling overwhelmed,but somebody can walk through a
transition from being a infanton this one skill up to a
booster seat, all the way up tothe driver's seat
Carma (23:32):
While you're on that journey from the infant seat to
the driver's seat, just rememberalong the way to please be a
good passenger.
So Just like on a real roadtrip, how it can be really
exhausting to be the only driveron a long trip.
It's also taxing on the leaderto constantly be assessing
obstacles and making safetydecisions for a wide ranging
(23:54):
level of skills.
That trip leader, that driverand that co pilot are carrying a
heavy mental load.
And it's something that they'redoing for you as their friend or
fellow canyoneer.
So when you're the passenger,remember that, your driver and
co pilot are carrying a mentalload.
Katie (24:12):
so don't be the mouthy teenager in the back.
Don't be saying I'm fine mom.
I don't what I know.
I always know Like it's a lot ofwork to keep people safe and mid
canyon If, people have justbeen, snarky or sarcastic too
much, that leader's going tohave a lot of mental fatigue
(24:35):
and, isn't going to be able todo as good of a job and might
not want to bring you
Carma (24:38):
Yeah, so consider when you show up as a passenger, all
of the hours that the pilot andthe co pilot have already put
into planning and coordinatingthe trip before you even showed
up or before you even got aninvitation.
So think of like your mentalload as a passenger, completing
the canyon for yourself.
You know, making sure you havewhat you can take care of, and
(24:59):
then multiply it by how manypeople are on the trip, plus the
first and last person'sresponsibility, and you get like
a little idea of what the driverand the co pilot, are doing to
make the trip a reality.
Katie (25:12):
Yeah, every time they show up at a repel, they aren't
just figuring out if they can doit.
They're figuring out how they'regoing to do it and how everyone
else is going to do it andmentally imagining everybody and
any kind of problem or pendulumswing that might come up for the
entire group and how to coachpeople through that.
Just multiply that mental loadto feel like what it is like to
be a guide.
Just a small, small piece of
Carma (25:34):
Yeah, As a good passenger, some of the things
that you can do is take care ofas much of your own
responsibility as you are ableto do.
Respond to texts and read theinformation that your leaders
are giving to you.
just have an opinion aboutsomething, even if you don't
know all the details in thebackground, do those parts of
(25:57):
the trip planning that you cando.
So like we love re inviting ourfriends who have outdoor skills
in other areas and who will jumpin and be like, Hey, I'll bring
the cooler with cold drinks forafter we get out of the canyon
or I'll research campsites,because I know how to do that.
So jump in wherever you can.
Katie (26:16):
And that's honestly a huge way to get invited back.
I mean, there's been canyonswhere you and I were juggling a
lot of logistics and weather andtrying to get beta on what the
most recent conditions were.
And that was just a heavy liftfor us to do, you know, after
work each night.
So having somebody who's like,Hey, guess what?
I'll take care of the food.
Carma (26:36):
Right, or I'll book the hotel or the campsite or
whatever, do the research tofind out where on the BLM land
we can camp,
Katie (26:44):
Yeah, someone who's not a big canyoneer, but it's a great
backpacker could totally do thatpart.
Carma (26:48):
Right.
They already have theunderstanding of trip
coordinating and logistics.
And so they can contribute tothe trip as a whole, even if,
they need a little bit more helpwith like the technical
planning.
Another tip is just say, thankyou to the people who lead you
through a canyon.
So it doesn't have to beanything big, just, just say
(27:10):
thank you.
And if you want to do a littlemore than that, you can buy them
a Gatorade or a beer when you'redone, or like pick up the tab
for their dinner, or maybe helpcontribute to their next rope
purchase or something becauseyou're using their gear, you're
benefiting from their knowledge.
So just make them feel a littlebit appreciated
Katie (27:31):
right?
You might be breaking stuff youdon't know you're even breaking,
or you might be putting somesevere rope grooves in their
critters, and you don't evenknow it yet because you don't
recognize that you're going waytoo fast and you're burning
pieces of gear.
And they're gonna replace those.
And they probably won't tell youthat they're gonna replace
those.
Cause it's just like, ah, that'sjust the wear and tear with a
beginner it's more harsh, youknow, you put a hole in their
(27:53):
wetsuit, those kinds of thingshappen.
And a trip leader has had thathappen a lot and has replaced a
lot of gear and has spent a lotof extra time in canyons making
sure everybody else is having agood time.
so I just always try to saythank you for that too.
Carma (28:06):
Yeah.
And also, don't be offended ifyou don't get invited on every
trip.
Katie (28:11):
Oh, yeah, don't be the one who's mad at them for
leaving you out when there'sonly six spots on the permit and
they have fifty canyon friends.
Carma (28:19):
Yeah.
And it may just be like, theydidn't invite you because that
canyon isn't appropriate for youyet.
There's a lot of reasons likepermit availability, and maybe
they've been talking about thatspecific canyon with another
friend for a long time.
So, um, don't whine.
When you don't get invited toevery trip because it's really
not possible to do that,
Katie (28:41):
So every team you go out with is going to have a
different mix of passengers,drivers, co pilots.
And I just want to encourage youto enjoy that.
Enjoy it when somebody has moreexperience than you.
Enjoy helping other people tostep up their game and become
better canyoneers.
Ask questions, be curious, andask other people how you can
(29:02):
help them too.
Make it fun.
This game of canyoneering is aconstant learning environment.
There are no two canyons thatwill ever be exactly the same,
and there's no canyon that goingdown at a second time is going
to be exactly the same.
So we're going to be in aconstant state of learning, and
just get comfortable with that.
It's part of the game, part ofthe fun.
Carma (29:27):
Hey, Canyon Crew, we need your help to grow the show.
If you learned somethingvaluable from this episode,
please share it with a friend.
You can also help more amazingcanyoneers find the show by
giving us a rating and review onyour favorite podcast listening
app.
Lastly, if you'd like to fundour quest for great canyoneering
content, click on the supportthe show button in the show
(29:50):
notes As always, thanks fordropping in with us.
We'll catch you on the rap side.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
I'm Katie
Carma (00:10):
and I'm Carma and you're listening to, I'd rather be
canyoneering.
Katie (00:14):
We're best friends who totally geek out about canyon
rigging and beautifully slotcanyons.
Basically we'd always rather becanyoneering.
But when we can't, we spendevery spare minute, we have
talking about it.
Carma (00:26):
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
Please seek professionalinstruction and practice
technical skills in a controlledenvironment before entering slot
canyons.
Your safety is entirely your ownresponsibility.
Katie (00:41):
Welcome to our canyon crew! Welcome back, everyone.
We are on the second episode ofa two part series here, and we
are talking about judging ourfriends and ourselves and
everyone on our team.
Karma and I have found the spacewhere it is nice to be able to
(01:01):
classify some friends when we'regoing on trips and get the
balance right on our teams.
So you obviously wouldn't want aton of beginners going with only
one person who's seasoned, or aton of beginners with an
intermediate person.
So we came up with a littleanalogy to help us see where
everyone is on the scale,including ourselves, and it is
our SUV analogy.
(01:22):
So just to get everybody caughtup, there are five people in our
4Runner, and we've got a driverin the front, who's the leader
of the trip.
We've got a co pilot who helpsto do all the planning and in
the back seats, we go from aninfant seat where they need
everything done for them to abooster seat, someone who's
learning the ropes, doing prettywell and up to kind of a teenage
(01:44):
passenger who can do almosteverything for themselves, but
still need to be checked off.
In this episode, we're going tolook at what things we can do to
progress from one seat to thenext, and we'll have a bunch of
tips on how to do that.
Carma (01:59):
So our number one suggestion when you're wanting
to advance between differentseats in the SUV and progress in
your canyoneering is to take aclass.
It's the most efficient way toget better.
And honestly, you're going tolearn things correctly the first
time so that you can be makinggood habits and you're going to
find out the reasoning behindwhy your instructors are
(02:22):
teaching you to do these things.
So what we're going to talkabout now is after you've taken
a class, these are some of thethings that you can work on in
Canyon with your mentor toprogress, and we'll go through
each of the different seats inthe SUV and some suggestions we
have, specifically what skillsyou should be working on.
Katie (02:41):
So again, we'll start with the the most beginner the
infant car seat and If you arein that spot where someone is
doing your harness for you everytime and doing your repel
device.
Those are the first two steps tolearn how to do those yourself.
Go ahead and look at yourspecific harness and look online
for what the manufacturer sayson how to adjust it properly.
(03:04):
Get to know your harness reallywell, and then also, learn how
to rig your own rappel device sothat you know what it should
look like.
You get it right 100 percent ofthe time.
You can sit and practice that infront of the TV with a length of
six foot rope from REI.
Carma (03:18):
But what you can't practice in front of your TV is
developing some more grit.
So if you have not spent muchtime in the backcountry, then
you may need to start gettingcomfortable with being
uncomfortable.
This is kind of an intangiblequality that Katie and I have
talked about, Canyon crewmembers someone can be less
(03:42):
experienced, but if they haveawesome grit, we'll take them
into places that we wouldn'totherwise take them because we
know that they have proventhemselves to be good teammates
when things get hard.
To train yourself and increaseyour grit, go out into the back
country and other venues and dohard things.
(04:05):
Honestly, get dirty, get someadventure marks, and, be up for
helping when things get tough.
Katie (04:14):
Yeah, absolutely amazing quality to have in a canyon
partner.
There have definitely beenpeople who've come on trips who
it may be been their first orsecond canyon and we were doing
a more intense canyon.
But I knew this person had somereally good grit because of
climb the Tetons with them orI've gone on a three day
backpacking trip with them andthey got blisters and they
didn't whine about it the wholetime.
(04:35):
Um, like that kind of grit.
Just being cold or having towait out a storm, those things
become a real asset to the teamwhen things don't go exactly as
you'd planned.
And it's really hard for thingsto go exactly as you'd planned
in a canyon that you've neverbeen in before.
Carma (04:49):
Yeah, that's so true.
So moving on to the booster seatposition, Some of the things
that you could be doing toprogress and contribute to your
team is when you're going out,start bringing a pack that's big
enough to help carry the rope.
Also.
Katie (05:06):
don't show up with a little mountain biking bladder
and that's it.
that's not fair to the rest ofthe
Carma (05:12):
so I have a friend who calls those hot chick packs
because the only ones who canget away with carrying teeny
little packs are hot chickswhere the dudes will carry all
the crap because they just wantthe hot chick to come.
So stop bringing a hot chickpack and bring an actual
Katie (05:28):
A gear
Carma (05:29):
gear pack so you can help carry group crap.
Anyway, also, um, learn how tobag rope.
I guarantee you, whoever'sleading you will be happy to
teach you how to bag rope.
It actually is a really good wayto warm up if you're getting
cold in a canyon.
So you should already know howto rig your own rappel device
(05:49):
correctly.
Now you want to start learningsome of these, other skills with
your rappel device.
Learning how to correctly addfriction.
You want to know how to lock offyour device.
And you can find that by lookingat, the manufacturer's
information that came with yourrappel device.
if you don't have those, you canfind those online and we can
even include them again in, ourpodcast notes, but, on there
(06:12):
it'll also show you ways to addfriction and it'll show you ways
to lock it off, and so practicethose skills and know them
really well for your own device.
Katie (06:21):
And if that paper is confusing you, reach out to a
friend who has that same deviceand just ask to take a video of
how to do it.
sometimes those papers are hardto read and there's, there are
YouTube videos out there andyou're like, Oh, it's just that.
I mean, I remember that when Iwas trying to decide if I wanted
to buy a squirrel or not.
And I was like, I don't knowthat lock off looks kind of
tricky.
I don't know.
(06:42):
There's a lot of arrows.
And, uh, and then Karma waslike, it's not that hard.
You do this.
Back and forth, back and forth,and now you're done.
So, like, the way that sheshowed me, I was like, oh,
that's easy, compared to tryingto interpret a lot of arrows can
sometimes just be a little bitof a
Carma (06:57):
yeah,
Katie (06:58):
and a lot of times the manufacturers have videos on it,
too.
Carma (07:01):
Yep.
And then another thing you canbe working on is learning how to
operate a third hand or a handsfree backup.
So there's a lot of differentoptions for that, using a VT
Prusik or a Hollowblock.
Learn how to do that becausethat's a skill you're going to
need, eventually when you'regetting to the point where you
can start going down first.
Katie (07:22):
Yeah.
And rock climbers.
This is a good time to ask yourfriends who've been in the
canyoneering world a little bitlonger.
If they have any other advicefor what to use for a hands free
backup, this is a really coolplace to learn a few extras to
add to your toolkit.
Carma (07:40):
You're also going to want to learn to recognize the
differences between commonsingle strand and double strand
rigging, so that when you walkup to the repel, you can know
how to evaluate which side ofthe rope you should be getting
yourself onto, in order to repelsafely.
Katie (07:57):
The last passenger in the back row is our teenager.
They're mostly self sufficientand pretty confident.
However, the difference betweenthe front seat and the back
seats is that the front seatteam members, like the driver
and co pilot, make decisionsthat will affect the safety of
the entire group, like riggingand pulling the rope to ensure
it doesn't get stuck.
Someone in the teenager positiondoesn't yet have the experience
(08:19):
to make those decisions, so ifyou're in the teenager position,
here are our recommendations foryou.
You need to start acquiring yourown gear so you can get to know
it really well and practice withit at home.
and kind of diversifying it.
Try out a few different items,and then go ahead and learn
about other harnesses so thatyou know the difference between
the two types, which.
Most of them are auto lockingnow, but every once in a while
(08:39):
you'll see one that has to bedoubled back and you need to see
that C shaped for closed.
If you don't know the differencebetween those two, go ahead and
look that up so that you canstart to recognize them just in
case someone shows up with anold school harness.
Do buddy checks for others.
If you are checking yourselfevery time you have one Canyon's
worth of experience, when youfinish, if you double check
(09:00):
other people, you're going todouble and triple your
experience of checking repeldevices as people are going
down.
Also learned a fireman belayothers and ask how to do proper
partner assists.
Learn to self rescue and to godown first.
maybe mock going down first byhaving somebody be a backup, but
you treating it like you're thefirst one down.
(09:20):
Learn to inspect the anchors bystepping up.
Ask somebody what they'relooking at.
Ask somebody what they'rechecking for.
If the webbing looks really new,ask them why they're looking
through the back and you mightlearn something about, you know,
mice chewing holes and stuff.
Ask somebody if they decide tocut the webbing, why they did
and why they replaced it thistime.
Handle that stuff.
Really get a feel for it.
Carma (09:41):
And while you're up there at the front, ask the person
who's rigging to show you howthey're rigging and why they're
choosing to rig that way.
There are some things that whenyou're watching someone rig are
obvious, but there are otherthings that you're not going to
catch unless they explain to youwhy they're making the choices
that they are and what thingsthey're trying to avoid by
(10:03):
making that choice.
So by letting them know thatyou're trying to learn, they
have an opportunity to explainto you the nuances of the
rigging that they've alreadylearned as far as certain
details of maybe which directionthey want to place the block,
Whether it's down canyon or upcanyon or if they're doing a
certain tie off on their figureeight to avoid having extra
(10:25):
loops of rope getting caught inthe bushes or something like
that.
So you really get thatopportunity to hear the why
behind it and you have anopportunity to ask questions.
So there if there's somethingyou don't understand you can say
well why Why does it look thatway this time and it looked a
different way another time?
You know, you have that learningopportunity between you and the
(10:47):
rigger to get down to the nittygritty with them.
Katie (10:51):
Other things you can do is that teenage passenger is to
start reading beta for thecanyons before and after you do
them so that you can see if yourinterpretation matched the
reality of the canyon.
You can also try navigating inthe field based on the beta.
Ask yourself what choices arecoming up ahead and make a
decision about what you think isthe right path before the leader
shows you the way.
(11:12):
Also, watch other team members,and start recognizing risks for
people less skilled than youare, so you can help protect the
team.
Watch when somebody does atricky down climb who is less
experienced than you, and see ifthe leaders set up hand line or
a top belay, and see how theirfeet do.
Just kind of get a feel for ifsomebody hikes this way, they
(11:33):
might down climb that way.
And if they slip on this kind ofenvironment, then we probably
need to protect them up at thisrepel.
Those kinds of things whereyou're starting to anticipate.
That's what the backseatpassenger needs to work on.
As we've talked about, there's ahuge jump between the back seat
and the front seat.
So the co pilot is responsiblefor knowing a lot of extra
(11:55):
information.
You need a good generalbackground of the outdoors,
which means you're going to needto know medical safety and first
aid, permitting processes,weather, watersheds.
So get a general understandingof those basic outdoor elements
as part of your foundationalskills to becoming a co pilot
and eventually a driver.
Carma (12:16):
If you're in the co pilot seat already, some of the things
that you can do to help progressto be a driver is to participate
in the trip planning.
So look at all the beta and tryto interpret it yourself as if
you were going to be the driverand then share what you find
with the driver.
So read it all yourself, kind ofsynthesize it in your mind, and
(12:39):
then try to tell the driver, asif you were the trip leader, and
then have them give you thatfeedback of like, hey, so I also
noticed that at this criticaljunction or at this repel, we
may want to do something else.
And so they're going to be ableto fill in where you missed
something, or they may help youfocus on what is the most
important part of what you justread, the part that really,
(13:02):
changes things for the team.
Also assist the driver incoordinating with all the
members of your team.
So help with that load ofcommunicating about the Canyon
and, setting the logistics up ofwho's got what gear and what
cars are we going to need to goto these different canyons?
Where are we going to camp?
Things like that to help make atrip come together and take some
(13:25):
of that load off of the driver.
Katie (13:27):
Absolutely.
Carma (13:28):
As the co pilot, you're already thinking about not only
how to set up an anchor, butwhat needs to be done to
retrieve the rope successfully.
Katie (13:36):
as you're going down rappel, you can start to pretend
that you are the last persondown and practice setting that
rope for the pull like you areactually going to pull it.
I've had Karma do this beforewhere I had her go down as if
she was the last person down,but really she was second to
last.
And then I came down after herand said, I changed this part
(13:58):
because I thought it was goingto get snagged on that little V
slot right there.
Watch that next time.
Watch for V slots.
But by doing that, you canreally get some good feedback
pretending you're the lastperson down.
Every time.
Carma (14:10):
That was really helpful because you're doing that skill,
practicing it, but in a lowpressure situation.
And now what you can do isactually get some real
experience going down lastwhere, it really is the buck
stopping with you on the ropepull.
And one of the things you can dois talk it out with your mentor,
(14:30):
with your driver, who's alreadygone down to the bottom of
rappel.
You can talk through the stepsof what you're doing.
Like, okay, I am removing thesafety.
I am clipping the rope tomyself.
I am laying the rope away fromthat rope groove.
So you can.
Have kind of those auditorydouble checks from them, even
though you actually are gettingthat chance to be the last
(14:52):
person down.
Katie (14:53):
Absolutely.
And I would, again, like Karmasaying, do this with a mentor
who one can talk you through itfrom the bottom.
And if this is a canyon wherethere's a bunch of long repels,
you can bring some radio so thatcommunication is super solid.
And also a mentor who maybe canhelp you fix something if you
make a mistake, you know, likeif you forget to take the safety
off, and you came down a repelthat's now fixed, you're gonna
(15:17):
want to have somebody on theteam who knows how to ascend
back up and fix that.
you know, if ideally, if theanchors are strong enough.
But pick and choose the onesthat you're gonna go down last
on, and get that experiencewith.
You know, the first time thatI'm really being the last one
down, I'd prefer to go off abunch of bolts, because there's
a lot more options to fixthings, and work my way up to
more marginal anchors.
Carma (15:36):
And it's the same kind of progression with all the skills
that you're going to belearning.
So you're going to start withthe simple things and then
progress to the more complicatedthings with your mentor by your
side.
So you've learned how to rig,Simple repels now start learning
how to rig the more complicatedones.
Start incorporating courtesyrigging and rigging for simple
(15:57):
rescue scenarios.
Learn the basics of mechanicaladvantage and memorize your
favorite like three to one setupand carry the gear on your
harness to be able to do thatand practice how to do those
simple things quickly so thatthey come naturally to you when
you need them.
And then progress to learning,more complicated mechanical
advantage scenarios and learnhow to ascend and practice
(16:21):
ascending so that you can figureout exactly what pieces of gear
work the best for you.
I know I have personallymodified my equipment a bunch
with that.
What I thought I wanted to use.
Once I practiced, I had to dialthat in and I learned that.
Some combinations don't fittogether very well.
So, for example, I waspracticing ascending in the
(16:43):
climbing gym, and I was using arope man as my rope grab that
had my foot loop on it, so therope grab on the top, and then I
was using my microtractionattached to my harness as my
bottom rope grab.
And so, uh, As I started goingup the rope, I realized I got a
few feet off the ground, and allof a sudden I came to a halt,
(17:06):
and I looked at my rope man andmy microtraction, and they were
touching, they were sittingright on top of each other, and
the rope man has a little pieceof cable at the bottom of it
that you have to use to likepull down to disengage the cam
so that you can
Katie (17:21):
Oh no!
Carma (17:22):
And that little piece of cable had gotten sucked into the
pulley part of my microtractionand I came to a complete stop.
Katie (17:31):
What did,you do?
Carma (17:33):
Luckily I was on a top belay because we were at the
climbing gym, but I grabbed athird rope grab and put it above
everything else so that I couldtake off all of my stuck gear.
And that's when I realized likethat combination doesn't work
well together.
Katie (17:49):
Oh man.
Well, I'm glad you figured thatout, not in a canyon.
Carma (17:52):
Yeah, definitely.
Katie (17:54):
what I would really advise is if you are wanting to
get into this driver's seat, goout with a bunch of drivers.
go out with a bunch of peoplewho are at this advanced level,
who are capable of leading othergroups.
And if that is your group thatyou're going out with, you're
going to have five mentors withyou.
You're going to be able to stepinto this position probably the
most smoothly with at least onementor, but maybe a group of
(18:17):
mentors.
Carma (18:17):
Yeah, ask a lot of questions.
Katie (18:20):
And ask to be critiqued.
Ask to rig something and ask tobe critiqued on it.
Ask to get advice and to let,,people who know what they're
doing give you pointers andnuances and really polish what
you're doing.
Carma (18:34):
Right.
Katie (18:35):
And the driver is also somebody who needs to be
critiqued.
So once you've kind of reachedwhere you're feeling like I'm a
driver, I know what I'm doing.
It is now your job to seek outpeople who are better than you
to continue to progress.
Some really good places to lookfor information here are to go
take a class on something thatyou are not well versed in.
(18:55):
If you are really interested inrescue rigging, go and get that
polished up.
Also go out with other drivers,people who are, Leading canyons,
other places, see what they'reusing.
See what they're doingdifferently than you let them
critique you.
Let them look at your riggingand see if they have any insight
to what you're doing and howthey might do something
differently.
Also, you're going to have to bereally involved in the canyon
(19:17):
community.
You know, there's a lot ofreally good information coming
from other canyoning groupsright now.
There's information and new bestpractices being established all
the time coming from our friendsin Europe and Australia, New
Zealand, all over the place.
They're adding to what we knowand the progression of a canyon
and new bolting techniques.
Um, putting in temporary boltsis an idea.
(19:39):
You've also got.
information coming out from thecompanies who produce all of the
devices, or from the ropecompanies, where we may have
learned something about semistatic ropes, or we might have
learned that the piranha is notgoing to mix with the dual
sheath ropes, and that that's nolonger advised to do it that
way, or that there's a new waythat's going to be a better
(20:01):
rigging technique.
I've seen some things come outrecently with the totem and ways
that when you're doing a lower,there can be an auto lock set up
on that.
So there's always newinformation coming in.
And if you're going to setyourself up as that driver is
that leader, then you definitelyneed to be interacting with
other drivers and other leadersto make sure that you're keeping
up with best practices andconstantly stepping up your
(20:22):
game.
And.
Some of the best places to go dothat is to go with other leaders
at a rendezvous.
That's one of the best places tomeet other leaders and also to
meet around the campfire afteryou've run some canyons and talk
through some scenarios, you canget a lot of really good insight
by going to rendezvous andconnecting with other leaders.
Carma (20:41):
I completely agree.
I just went to my firstrendezvous up in Seattle.
It was the Pacific Northwestrendezvous put on by the
Mountaineers.
And I have to say, I was veryimpressed with the caliber of
canyoneers that were leadingthose canyons.
And going there, having been aleader in a lot of canyons in
(21:02):
the desert, but not having beena leader.
In any class C canyons, I wasblown away where I was like,
man, I got to step up my game.
There is so much more to learn.
And, it was really a neatexperience to get to be in one
of those backseat positionsagain, and just be responsible
(21:22):
for myself at that point,because I was not used to the
swift water.
It was a lot stronger thananything else I've ever been in,
but I was very confident in theleadership that I had, and it
was an awesome learningopportunity and a great place to
network with other people whojust are super involved in the
sport and know a ton aboutwhat's going on in the
(21:42):
community.
Katie (21:43):
And one thing I think is really cool is when a leader
talks to a leader, You alreadyspeak the same language.
And so you can get right to themeat of it right away on why
someone chose to do something acertain way.
And with that, I feel like wegrow even faster when leaders
get to talk to leaders.
Carma (21:59):
Yeah, for example, we were talking to another one of
the leaders at the PNWrendezvous and we were just
asking him, why did you chooseto do like that transcript?
Daisy chain or European finishon the releasable figure eight.
And he was telling us thatthere's times when he has wanted
to be able to release the anchorand not have to be standing
(22:21):
right up next to the bolts, butbe able to be like five or six
feet away from it and still beable to release the anchor and
to control the lowering ofsomeone.
So that was, like an awesomedetail and nuance to learn about
why you would choose that lockoff that we wouldn't have had
the opportunity to find out ifwe're not going with other
people who have a lot of leadingexperience.
Katie (22:42):
and he was standing five or six feet below it because of
the terrain of the canyon.
So it was a really good exampleto see we were both there.
Carma (22:50):
it was really nice to see it in action.
Katie (22:53):
Hopefully after hearing about these different seats in
the car, you can kind of picturewhere you are with your own
group and where you are maybe inthe general canyoning community
now.
And at any of these levels, whenyou're trying to move up, you
can do a test with a moreexperienced person where you
say, Hey, I want to work ondoing this on my own, can you
just watch me and don't sayanything unless I make a
(23:13):
critical error and I'll tell youwhen I'm ready for my check and
that way you can talk throughobstacles and you can work on
your rigging and have somebodylook at it one skill at a time
instead of feeling overwhelmed,but somebody can walk through a
transition from being a infanton this one skill up to a
booster seat, all the way up tothe driver's seat
Carma (23:32):
While you're on that journey from the infant seat to
the driver's seat, just rememberalong the way to please be a
good passenger.
So Just like on a real roadtrip, how it can be really
exhausting to be the only driveron a long trip.
It's also taxing on the leaderto constantly be assessing
obstacles and making safetydecisions for a wide ranging
(23:54):
level of skills.
That trip leader, that driverand that co pilot are carrying a
heavy mental load.
And it's something that they'redoing for you as their friend or
fellow canyoneer.
So when you're the passenger,remember that, your driver and
co pilot are carrying a mentalload.
Katie (24:12):
so don't be the mouthy teenager in the back.
Don't be saying I'm fine mom.
I don't what I know.
I always know Like it's a lot ofwork to keep people safe and mid
canyon If, people have justbeen, snarky or sarcastic too
much, that leader's going tohave a lot of mental fatigue
(24:35):
and, isn't going to be able todo as good of a job and might
not want to bring you
Carma (24:38):
Yeah, so consider when you show up as a passenger, all
of the hours that the pilot andthe co pilot have already put
into planning and coordinatingthe trip before you even showed
up or before you even got aninvitation.
So think of like your mentalload as a passenger, completing
the canyon for yourself.
You know, making sure you havewhat you can take care of, and
(24:59):
then multiply it by how manypeople are on the trip, plus the
first and last person'sresponsibility, and you get like
a little idea of what the driverand the co pilot, are doing to
make the trip a reality.
Katie (25:12):
Yeah, every time they show up at a repel, they aren't
just figuring out if they can doit.
They're figuring out how they'regoing to do it and how everyone
else is going to do it andmentally imagining everybody and
any kind of problem or pendulumswing that might come up for the
entire group and how to coachpeople through that.
Just multiply that mental loadto feel like what it is like to
be a guide.
Just a small, small piece of
Carma (25:34):
Yeah, As a good passenger, some of the things
that you can do is take care ofas much of your own
responsibility as you are ableto do.
Respond to texts and read theinformation that your leaders
are giving to you.
just have an opinion aboutsomething, even if you don't
know all the details in thebackground, do those parts of
(25:57):
the trip planning that you cando.
So like we love re inviting ourfriends who have outdoor skills
in other areas and who will jumpin and be like, Hey, I'll bring
the cooler with cold drinks forafter we get out of the canyon
or I'll research campsites,because I know how to do that.
So jump in wherever you can.
Katie (26:16):
And that's honestly a huge way to get invited back.
I mean, there's been canyonswhere you and I were juggling a
lot of logistics and weather andtrying to get beta on what the
most recent conditions were.
And that was just a heavy liftfor us to do, you know, after
work each night.
So having somebody who's like,Hey, guess what?
I'll take care of the food.
Carma (26:36):
Right, or I'll book the hotel or the campsite or
whatever, do the research tofind out where on the BLM land
we can camp,
Katie (26:44):
Yeah, someone who's not a big canyoneer, but it's a great
backpacker could totally do thatpart.
Carma (26:48):
Right.
They already have theunderstanding of trip
coordinating and logistics.
And so they can contribute tothe trip as a whole, even if,
they need a little bit more helpwith like the technical
planning.
Another tip is just say, thankyou to the people who lead you
through a canyon.
So it doesn't have to beanything big, just, just say
(27:10):
thank you.
And if you want to do a littlemore than that, you can buy them
a Gatorade or a beer when you'redone, or like pick up the tab
for their dinner, or maybe helpcontribute to their next rope
purchase or something becauseyou're using their gear, you're
benefiting from their knowledge.
So just make them feel a littlebit appreciated
Katie (27:31):
right?
You might be breaking stuff youdon't know you're even breaking,
or you might be putting somesevere rope grooves in their
critters, and you don't evenknow it yet because you don't
recognize that you're going waytoo fast and you're burning
pieces of gear.
And they're gonna replace those.
And they probably won't tell youthat they're gonna replace
those.
Cause it's just like, ah, that'sjust the wear and tear with a
beginner it's more harsh, youknow, you put a hole in their
(27:53):
wetsuit, those kinds of thingshappen.
And a trip leader has had thathappen a lot and has replaced a
lot of gear and has spent a lotof extra time in canyons making
sure everybody else is having agood time.
so I just always try to saythank you for that too.
Carma (28:06):
Yeah.
And also, don't be offended ifyou don't get invited on every
trip.
Katie (28:11):
Oh, yeah, don't be the one who's mad at them for
leaving you out when there'sonly six spots on the permit and
they have fifty canyon friends.
Carma (28:19):
Yeah.
And it may just be like, theydidn't invite you because that
canyon isn't appropriate for youyet.
There's a lot of reasons likepermit availability, and maybe
they've been talking about thatspecific canyon with another
friend for a long time.
So, um, don't whine.
When you don't get invited toevery trip because it's really
not possible to do that,
Katie (28:41):
So every team you go out with is going to have a
different mix of passengers,drivers, co pilots.
And I just want to encourage youto enjoy that.
Enjoy it when somebody has moreexperience than you.
Enjoy helping other people tostep up their game and become
better canyoneers.
Ask questions, be curious, andask other people how you can
(29:02):
help them too.
Make it fun.
This game of canyoneering is aconstant learning environment.
There are no two canyons thatwill ever be exactly the same,
and there's no canyon that goingdown at a second time is going
to be exactly the same.
So we're going to be in aconstant state of learning, and
just get comfortable with that.
It's part of the game, part ofthe fun.
Carma (29:27):
Hey, Canyon Crew, we need your help to grow the show.
If you learned somethingvaluable from this episode,
please share it with a friend.
You can also help more amazingcanyoneers find the show by
giving us a rating and review onyour favorite podcast listening
app.
Lastly, if you'd like to fundour quest for great canyoneering
content, click on the supportthe show button in the show
(29:50):
notes As always, thanks fordropping in with us.
We'll catch you on the rap side.
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