November 30, 2023 • 57 mins
Have you ever wondered exactly what happens after you place a call to search and rescue (SAR)? Do you have the emergency essentials, in your pack, to survive a night in the canyon? Do you know what the most common issues are that lead to injuries and deaths in Zion canyons? Gordon L Larsen M.D. from Zion SAR answers all these need to know questions and more!
DONATE to Zion SAR through the Zion Forever Project!
See helicopter video of canyoneers rescued from the Subway.
Read about Aron Ralston's incredible survival story.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katie (00:08):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
I'm Katie
Carma (00:10):
and I'm Carma and you're listening to, I'd rather be
canyoneering.
Katie (00:14):
We're best friends who totally geek out about canyon
rigging and beautifully slotcanyons.
Basically we'd always rather becanyoneering.
But when we can't, we spendevery spare minute, we have
talking about it.
Carma (00:26):
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
Please seek professionalinstruction and practice
technical skills in a controlledenvironment before entering slot
canyons.
Your safety is entirely your ownresponsibility.
Katie (00:41):
Welcome to our canyon crew!
Carma (00:46):
Hey everyone.
Welcome back.
It's getting really close toThanksgiving and Something that
we're super thankful for asCanyoneers are all the wonderful
people who work in search and
Katie (00:58):
rescue Yeah, we are!
Carma (01:00):
because we know that they have our back.
And so we have a really awesomeopportunity today.
We're going to get to speak withGordon Larson who's been working
with Zion search and rescue forquite some time.
Welcome to the show, Gordon.
Gordon (01:15):
Thank you.
It's good to be here.
Carma (01:18):
first off, Gordon, we just want to get to know you.
So can you tell us what yourrole is with Zion Search and
Rescue?
Gordon (01:25):
I am the medical advisor for Zion National Park.
And I also participate withtheir search and rescue program.
I have been doing that as avolunteer 26 years now.
Katie (01:39):
that's impressive.
Gordon, Roughly, how many SARcalls do you think you've been
involved in?
Over the years?
Gordon (01:45):
Well, it's hard to say exactly because I don't keep a
log, but I estimate I have...
I have been involved in someform or another in about 60
different rescue scenarios overin Zion National Park.
Katie (01:58):
Wow.
Carma (01:59):
what is your medical background?
Gordon (02:01):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I'm one of the emergencyphysicians at St.
George Regional Hospital.
I am board certified inemergency medicine and have a
fellowship in wildernessmedicine.
I'm also a climber and canyoneerand, uh, have participated in
(02:22):
rope rescue and search andrescue training over these many
years with my association withZion.
So some of the ways I'm involvedwith Search and Rescues, because
I am on duty at the hospital,you know, I work shifts at the
emergency department, when weget a call out for a search and
rescue, I'm not always able togo because like, well, I'm on
(02:43):
duty or I go on duty in sixhours.
So I can't drive over to ZionBut often if they're in the
field and they have aninteresting or difficult or
serious medical Situation theywill call me on the phone And so
I'm in touch with them sometimesdirectly by phone and sometimes
through radio relay the dispatchradio relay to the patient and
(03:05):
so some of the medical decisionsare made that way.
Carma (03:08):
so are you a volunteer or are you paid by the Park Service
Gordon (03:13):
I am a volunteer, although when search and rescue
teams gather, they do getcompensated for their time on
the rescue itself.
Carma (03:26):
Okay,
Katie (03:26):
That's good.
Yeah.
Can you explain the process tous of what happens when somebody
places a SAR call?
Gordon (03:34):
there are many different ways for a call to come in to
the park service needing arescue.
Zion National Park is a nationalpark and a federal agency, but
it also is inside WashingtonCounty and the state of Utah.
And so there's, many overlappingagencies, but essentially in
(03:57):
some manner a call has to cometo dispatch at, the emergency
operations center in, ZionNational Park.
This can be from a shuttle busdriver, from a reporting party,
like a third party, it can befrom one of the other rangers.
In some cases it can be from thesatellite services that you can
(04:23):
subscribe to and they'll notifythe dispatch at Zion that
there's been a signal sent fromwithin the park boundaries.
Katie (04:30):
Gotcha.
So there's a lot of differentthings that could be happening
depending on which way that callcame in.
Gordon (04:35):
Correct.
So, let's say it finally gets todispatch that somebody might
need help.
On duty that day, one of theRangers, and they're usually
involved in law enforcement, AndEMS and SAR and some of these
Rangers and trained in allthree.
So, and, uh, I really likeworking with the Zion Rangers.
(04:59):
They're almost always collegegraduates.
They're highly motivated to workfor the park service.
They love to be outside.
And yeah, they're fire trained.
They're federal law enforcementtrained.
They're paramedic trained.
They're search and rescue.
And they're just Awesome people.
to hang out with.
Katie (05:16):
Sounds like
Carma (05:16):
Yeah.
Katie (05:17):
people.
Carma (05:18):
Yeah.
Gordon (05:19):
But anyway, so one of these guys, gals, or guys, cause
it's, about 50 50 over therenow, the female male rangers,
one of them is assigned, And asIC incident commander and, when
they're an IC, they then decidehow much resources is going to
be, sent towards this complaint.
(05:39):
So one of the first things theyneed to do is this legitimate
call.
And if they're not sure, or ifit's like so, so they send out
the hasty team.
to go find out the details.
Where exactly are they?
What it's going to take to getthem out of there?
And, you know, are medicallyunstable?
And then, uh, IC will then put apage in to the search and rescue
(06:01):
system, which there are a coreof about 10 rangers in Zion who
are trained, some of them highlytrained, and then several
members of the community inSpringdale.
They're usually guides, orthey're, dirtbag climbers
looking for a little extra money
Carma (06:20):
Mm
Gordon (06:21):
and a few EMS guys and then a few from the community
like me that have long termrelationships or interest, you
know in Washington County andZion search and rescue and stuff
and so that page goes outprobably to about 30 And when
they say, oh, we need 10 peopleto respond, you call it
dispatch.
(06:41):
And usually the first 10 thatrespond will be on that, you
know, call.
And then sometimes they'll doadditional pages.
We need four more or somethinglike that.
So then they assemble the teamat the EOC.
And they go through the wholescenario, they talk about the
safety of everything, what'sgoing to need to be done.
We have a search and rescue van,which has all the equipment.
And then the IC at this pointdecides whether a helicopter can
(07:05):
be of help in this situationtoo.
And, then they dispatch theoperation, and some operations
are done.
90 minutes and some go on fortwo days, you know, so and the
other thing is there could bemultiple Incidences at the same
time which is not uncommon on abusy weekend in Zion where you
(07:25):
have maybe a Rescue off one ofthe hiking trails like up to
emerald pools But now we have acall out of the narrows and oh,
yeah, someone's hurt in thebottom of Pine
Katie (07:34):
Yeah.
Gordon (07:35):
You know things like that
Carma (07:36):
Mm hmm.
Katie (07:37):
Or weather might cause you to have the same type of
incident everywhere around thepark.
Gordon (07:42):
well that brings up a whole new category of issues and
problems with Zion is, uh, flashfloods.
Yeah, I have been on somerescues where we are racing the
clock on you know, storms comingin and There's been a couple
times where we've actuallyextracted the team and waited
for the flash flood threat topass before we put him back in
Carma (08:03):
Wow.
Yike.
Yeah.
Gordon (08:04):
or hopeful that the injured party is at least up on
the side out of the way.
Katie (08:09):
Yeah.
Difficult choices to make atthat point, and really a lot of
respect for people who arewilling to go in and be in that
zone.
Gordon (08:16):
Right.
And Zion National Park has achallenge in that communications
is difficult.
Even with cell phone towers andsatellite and radio towers and
stuff, because of the deep slotcanyons in Zion, it is still a
considerable challenge to, havereal time communication
(08:38):
throughout the park.
Carma (08:39):
yeah, I'm thinking of, when we went down Mystery, I
forgot to send my message to,everyone at home that we were,
dropping into the death gully.
And so, we were partway down itwhen I tried to send, with my
inReach to be like, hey, we'redropping into the canyon, just
updating everyone.
It took, a couple hours for itto finally,send, because we were
so deep.
Gordon (09:01):
Yeah.
That's the challenge.
And in fact, sometimes some ofthe first stages of, Finding
someone out in the backcountry,one of the assignments or roles
for one of the search and rescuemembers is to be radio relay.
We will spot people up on ridgesor certain prominent points to
just stay there and to be arelay between dispatch and the
(09:23):
team that's out on the groundbecause of these exact
challenges.
Carma (09:27):
Yeah, that?
makes a lot of sense.
Like a mini cell tower, or whatare you carrying to do that?
Katie (09:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gordon (09:33):
The Park Service has, radios other than that, I
couldn't tell you the details ofthe specifics of them, but,
Carma (09:39):
course, Katie wants to know the, the, the audio
engineering side
Katie (09:45):
that's part of my background.
Gordon (09:48):
Sometimes they'll give me one and say, okay, this is
the channel we're on.
This is how you transmit it.
Don't touch anything else.
Carma (09:57):
don't change any
Katie (09:58):
Don't break my toys you can just you can play with it,
Gordon (10:00):
Yeah, so, one of the questions I do get is when
someone calls for a search andrescue, a SAR rescue in Zion,
how much does it cost them?
And, fortunately, Zion SARprogram does not charge anyone
for a rescue.
Now, once, once they reach EMS,the medical helicopter or an
(10:24):
ambulance on the road, thentypical medical, charges and
fees and applications apply.
But the search and rescueprogram at Zion is totally
funded within the Park Service.
Katie (10:38):
Awesome
Carma (10:38):
Yeah.
Katie (10:41):
So having been out there on so many of these and been on
so many different positions onthe team, you really have a well
rounded sense of what's goingon.
What do you think are thefactors that get people into the
most trouble in the back countryof Zion?
Whether canyoneering or not, butjust in general.
Gordon (10:57):
yes.
Not everything that search andrescue responds to in Zion
National Park is related tocanyoneering.
And in fact, probably themajority of calls are from just
the main trails.
But because of the uniquetopography of Zion, lot of the
rescues do turn into a canyoneerexperience because, we're
(11:17):
talking the Zion Narrows, which.
In a way, it's canyoneering, itjust might not be the most
technical, but it does involvedescending the narrow slot
canyon.
The subway, which has a fewshort rappels, uh, but is the
site of many of our rescues andso forth.
lot of the rescues do involve,people that are encountering
(11:41):
challenging descents throughwet, cold, narrow corridors.
the vast majority of injuries incanyoneering and in the
backcountry are to the lowerextremity.
When someone jumps or slidesdown and, breaks their ankle or
breaks their legs or dislocatestheir knee, and then they're not
(12:03):
able to progress on their ownand they need a rescue at that
point.
Carma (12:08):
Right, which is super difficult to provide, right?
To get to them and get them out.
Gordon (12:15):
you know, when I started participating with Search and
Rescue, and you see, in yourmind you picture a litter, and
like six volunteers carryingsomeone along, it looks
reasonable, but if you ever doit in person, after about a
hundred feet over ruggedterrain, six people are fairly
exhausted, and so.
(12:37):
Anytime we have to, rescuepeople out of difficult, rugged
terrain, more than just a fewhundred feet, it becomes, quite
the operation.
And, also, you have to take intoaccount that you can sustain
injuries to the, rescue membersin these, conditions.
Yeah.
Carma (12:57):
yeah,
Katie (12:58):
Especially if you're going into these narrow slots
and trying to maneuver somethingthat's super solid.
Do you think that in general therescue teams end up doing
helicopter lifts because of thenature of these rescues and how
difficult and strenuous theywould be if you tried to
continue down canyon?
Gordon (13:14):
Yes, absolutely, uh, using helicopters in Zion
National Park has increased infrequency over the past 20
years, for several reasons.
One is we have more helicopterrescue services available to us.
Some is through the parkservice.
One's based out of Grand CanyonNational Park.
(13:35):
The Utah Highway Patrol has ahelicopter that's trained for
rescue, and then some of themedical helicopters locally can
provide some assistance.
So whenever we have an extendedrescue deep in the backcountry
of Zion, one of the first thingsthey do is assess the situation
and see how can a helicopterhelp us.
(13:56):
Uh, whether it's insertingmembers of the SAR team to get
there quickly.
Or to get the injured patient orparties out of there.
Unfortunately, not everyscenario is conducive to the
helicopters.
They cannot land in the heart ofthe Narrows, you know, in the
Wall Street area.
(14:17):
They can't land up in the subwaysection.
In fact, most of the time theyactually don't land.
When we use the helicopters,they use the long line method or
hoist.
Or what they call short haul,
Carma (14:31):
Yeah.
Gordon (14:32):
Have a rescuer dangling from about a 200 foot rope and
they hover over the site, theyattach the patient and the
rescuer to the line, and thenthey lift up.
I'm sure it's an exhilaratingride for the injured injured
party and the ranger.
And they take him to thenearest, spot on the road where
(14:52):
they then put him down and thenfrom there we can transfer him
to a medical helicopter or puthim in the back of an ambulance
and take him on to the hospitalfrom there.
Or in some cases where theirinjury is minor, but the rescue
is so difficult, they thenrefuse transport and go by
private car at that point.
Carma (15:08):
Yeah, it makes sense.
Katie (15:10):
What does it look like when you can't use the
helicopter?
Gordon (15:14):
Let me give you a typical kind of scenario in
Zion.
Um, every year the SAR teamresponds to serious falls from
canyoneers and climbers andoften their fatalities.
And the team has to eventuallyextract the body and the
process.
And then there's a few that areso critically injured that it's
(15:37):
very time sensitive and they dorisk personnel and equipment
with judgment, you know, toexpedite, but the, majority of
injuries and rescues, are notlife threatening.
And so you have a little bit oftime to sort it out.
kind of a typical standardrescue in Zion, which may occur
(15:57):
in the narrows or in the subwayor sometimes up in Pine Creek
is, between 2 p.
m.
and 4 p.
m.
in the afternoon, somebody getsinjured.
Usually they slide down, or theyjump, and they fall, and they
break their leg, or theydislocate their shoulder, or
something similar to that.
(16:17):
So then, they can't make atelephone call, because there's
no cell service there.
So someone has to hike out, andnotify someone to then get hold
of the rangers at dispatch.
So this is going to take two tofour hours and so It's between 4
p.
m.
And 6 p.
m.
(16:38):
on a typical Saturday or Sunday,we'll get a call A page goes out
from search and rescue you need10 for a rescue in the narrows
Katie (16:46):
Wow.
Gordon (16:47):
report to dispatch need eight for a carry out on the
Kayenta trail or Need 10 for atechnical rescue out of the
subway.
It's always kind of the lateafternoon early evening and
Katie (17:01):
Witching hour.
Gordon (17:02):
Yes, and in the meantime usually what the incident
commander for the park will dois they'll send a hasty team
which usually one to threeRangers that can hike quickly
that know the canyon and Takesome minimal gear and their
bags, you know first aid stuffAnd usually some food and water,
(17:23):
a little sleeping bag, and, someclothing.
And they'll hike quickly to thevictim and find out the details,
like just how bad are they hurt,with a little bit of help, can
they help them self rescue, orare they really incapacitated
and are going to need a fullrescue.
And, uh, sometimes about dark,they determined that, okay, it's
(17:46):
going to take a full rescue.
It's going to take a fulloperation and we get them out of
here.
It's now dark.
We can't really launch thehelicopter.
It's kind of getting dangerousfor people who come in for the
night.
And so they spend the night withthe patient.
Carma (17:58):
okay,
Gordon (17:59):
Yeah, they will, give them pain medication.
They'll splint them, put them ina warm sleeping bag, make sure
they have dry clothes, and thenjust hunker down with them for
the night.
And then the next morning wefinished the rescue operation.
That has happened many times inZion.
In the Narrows and the Subway.
I was just, About six weeks ago,I hiked in on one of those
(18:19):
scenarios.
And, I had to work the next day,so I didn't volunteer and stay
with the patient.
But, made sure they weresplinted and comfortable.
And then she had two rangerswith her.
And I was like, oh, I'm sorry,but I gotta hike out.
Go to the hospital in themorning to work.
Maybe I'll see you there.
So,
Carma (18:38):
ha, see you when you get there,
Katie (18:39):
sounds like a hasty ranger has to be willing to
suffer a little bit.
Oh man.
Gordon (18:44):
you're absolutely right.
A lot of times in those hastysearches, When they throw their
gear together, they always throwin some personal gear just in
case this is going to go muchlonger than they think, because
it does do that.
Which actually brings me to, oneof the questions asked What do I
think is essential that everyoneshould put in their first aid
(19:07):
kit or have in their pack ifthey're in the back country of
Zion or doing canyoneering
Katie (19:11):
Right.
everyone's trying to go lightand fast, but what are the
things that you do want in therewithout taking the kitchen sink?
Tell us Gordon, please.
Gordon (19:20):
Exactly.
I am an advocate of, light andfast.
Whenever I go canyoneering withpeople, they kind of do make a
comment.
They're like, well, why don'tyou stop and enjoy a little bit?
And I'm like, well, when we getthrough the technical section,
I'll kind of tone down theurgency a little bit, because
then I know, okay, we're throughthis.
(19:40):
But even in canyons that aregoing to take me 45 minutes, or
a canyon that's going to take me12 hours, I do have the same
basic things every time.
And, it has proven to be of helpin a few situations.
Any of these kits, you alwayskeep in mind that you hope to
(20:01):
never use the gear.
but that's exactly when you needit is when you're not expecting
it.
So, I think everyone shouldhave, an emergency blanket or a
little emergency bivvy sack.
That they can crawl into orcover themselves.
I think they should have a lightlayer of clothing like a light
(20:23):
jacket or a little tiny puffythat will pack down.
Even in the summer in Zion, thedeep slots can get really cold
at night, surprisingly cold.
Uh, I always take a littlebeanie, a little lightweight
beanie as well.
Personal first aid kit,Obviously several band aids, a
(20:45):
light roll of gauze.
And a roll of, uh, medical tape.
Headlamp with extra batteries,
Carma (20:53):
yep, heh heh,
Gordon (20:56):
Matches with a little candle.
Katie (20:59):
Can you tell us about that?
That was new to me last year.
So can you just tell for thelisteners who are wondering,
what are you going to do with acandle?
Gordon (21:05):
Oh, well, I mean, it can provide backup in case, like,
say your headlamp got way toowet and it was supposed to be
waterproof and it wasn't, and soyou don't have any light.
So it provides another thing oflight.
But if you make yourself alittle shelter, sometimes a
little candle can give you alittle bit of warmth.
Katie (21:24):
Awesome.
Gordon (21:25):
I mean, I'm not talking about canyoneering when we're
building snow caves, but anyonewho's ever built a snow cave and
spent a night in it knows thatif you put a candle or two in
there, it's remarkable, uh, howmuch warmth it brings to that
little area that you're hangingout in.
So, I always have just a smallcandle in mine.
Oh, a knife.
A small knife.
(21:46):
About 15 feet of cord,cordelette.
But it's small, so it's not toobulky.
Carma (21:54):
mm hmm.
Gordon (21:55):
Uh, a Sam splint.
Carma (21:57):
Yes, I always carry mine.
Gordon (22:00):
Yeah.
Ah.
Heh heh.
think more important than sizeis just one of them.
My canyon one is probably one ofthe smaller ones, but I always
just have it in the back part ofmy pack there.
It's so light, you don't evenknow it's there, and it can be
so helpful.
Those are the things right off Ican think of that I take every
(22:21):
time.
And I've had people kind oftease me a little bit over the
years, uh, 110 degree day inZion, I've got all this little
stuff, including a puffy jacket.
Carma (22:33):
Mm hmm.
Gordon (22:34):
But, uh, I'd much rather have it Yeah.
Katie (22:37):
like crazy at nighttime.
And I think until you've been inthere, it's hard to even fathom
how cold it can get on a summernight.
Carma (22:44):
Especially when you're wet or you've been wet and
you're trying to warm up, it canbe really cold.
Gordon (22:52):
I was talking with some of the Rangers the other day
because we were reflecting onthe things that we see over in
Zion and, hypothermia isactually been a considerable
part of the injuries andproblems we've seen with
canyoneers over the years.
And again, as I, and you kind ofget the feeling, Oh, it's the
(23:13):
desert.
It's very hot down there andeverything, but, all times of
the year, and especially in thespring and the fall, hypothermia
is an issue in, people that arecanyoneering and it contributes
to poor decision making andtheir injuries.
for sure.
And several of our deaths overthe past couple years in Zion
(23:34):
canyoneering has been attributedto hypothermia.
Carma (23:38):
Are you finding that people are not taking thick
enough wetsuits and things?
Is that contributing to it?
overall cold conditions gettingon top of people.
Gordon (23:49):
Not so much that they don't take enough wetsuits is
that they don't take them atall.
That, like they say, well I canmake it through the Pine Creek
slot, it's right by the tunnelhighway there.
It's only got a handful ofrappels and most people can do
it in a couple hours.
But that slot is deep and darkand wet and when you get several
(24:12):
people staged at the rappels itslows you down and, there have
been several incidences of,people needing help and rescue
from the SAR team in Pine Creekthat was related to hypothermia.
Yeah.
Katie (24:28):
I
Gordon (24:34):
But the majority of people, get cold quite easily.
It's only a few of you reallyhusky guys that seem to be able
to tolerate it really well.
And don't let them be the onethat says, Oh, we're going to be
fine in there.
And yeah.
Katie (24:50):
learned to make my temperature call on my own a
long time ago.
Gordon (24:54):
Yeah, when it, comes to conditions in the canyons,
regarding temperature, I woulderr on the side of caution and
be, more than prepared for coldconditions.
There's been a few times whereI've left my wetsuit in my pack
and carried it through and Idon't think there's anything
wrong with that.
Carma (25:11):
Yeah.
because you had it if you wouldhave needed it.
Yeah,
Gordon (25:15):
right.
Katie (25:15):
So, some people struggle to figure out when in the
backcountry is it a good time tocall SAR.
No matter how prepared you are,sometimes things go sideways,
and what would you say are goodreasons to call SAR?
Gordon (25:30):
That is a, an issue or a question that of course is
debatable, but I come from arock climbing background and The
way I was taught by my mentorand through the years of
climbing is that you self rescueif at all possible.
And you always take a little bitof gear with you to escape a
(25:53):
climb, to self rescue.
And you have that, mindset incertain situations that, well,
I'm going to solve my ownproblems here.
And so, I think that shouldstill be the case in
canyoneering.
I think you should, in yourgroup.
think through things, maybe havea little bit of contingency
plan, have the extra gear alongfor rescue and, have the, the
(26:18):
mindset that we're going tosolve our own problems.
Carma (26:21):
Mm hmm.
Gordon (26:21):
And in canyoneering, sometimes that can be some of
the most rewarding situations iswhere you've come across
something that's unexpected, oryou have a rope that gets stuck,
or, someone gets, you know,minorly injured, how are you
going to deal with this, and Ithink that's part of the fun and
challenge of canyoneering andadventure climbing, you know,
big routes and alpine routes.
But having said that, there is apoint where it might be the time
(26:45):
to reach out and call forrescue.
And when you do that, uh, youdon't want to delay it so far
that you've actually now pushedyour window out to where they
can't rescue you that, very day,or you've put yourself in a
situations now worse because youheld off.
So there is a, period ofjudgment there where.
(27:07):
Okay, it's great that you'retough and everything, but you
should have probably called forrescue a few hours earlier, but
that, that should probably be ona case by case basis.
But once you decide that you'regoing to call for rescue, you're
now going to involve otherpeople, not only their time,
their equipment, but, the riskof them being in, the situation
that you are and coming to helpand all that's involved in,
(27:28):
traversing usually rugged and,and wilderness type terrain.
Carma (27:32):
hmm.
Gordon (27:33):
I think that a good rule of thumb would be is if you have
someone that has a broken lowerextremity and they cannot walk
anymore, then that's likely whenyou're going to need some help.
Carma (27:47):
Yeah.
Gordon (27:47):
If you have someone that has altered mental status, they
are no longer coherent or ableto talk or communicate, that
would be an indication for rapidhelp.
Someone that has unstable vitalsigns or hemorrhage.
They're bleeding and you can'tseem to control it, and in some
way you're able to tell theirvital signs are not stable,
(28:08):
they're not a super fast heartrate, they're having a hard time
breathing, you can obviouslytell the urgency of the
situation.
Carma (28:15):
Mm hmm.
Gordon (28:16):
Uh, if there's a significant risk of
environmental exposure, like,hypothermia, like we're not
going to survive the night if wedon't call for help.
not just be uncomfortable.
There's a difference between,yeah, you're really cold and
uncomfortable and you're coldand hungry and you just want to
get home to like, okay, this isserious life threatening
hypothermia.
(28:36):
I need to reach out.
Carma (28:38):
Yeah, I saw, video, earlier this year, from
helicopter picking up somepeople in the subway when there
was snow and ice everywhere.
And I was like, whew, yeah, Imean, that, that would be that
kind of situation.
Like, we will not survive thenight in
Gordon (28:55):
Yes.
Yes, those young men werefortunate to have survived that
experience.
Carma (29:00):
Yeah, it
Gordon (29:01):
Yeah.
Carma (29:03):
Another kind of general, search and rescue question.
We touched on it a little bit,the personal satellite devices
that everybody has now, but howdo you think,'cause you've been
with Search and Rescue probablylong enough to see the
difference between, you know,before everyone had these
devices and now when they'reseem to be common, at least in
(29:25):
our groups that we run aroundwith are common.
How has that changed search andrescue?
Gordon (29:31):
The satellite devices have certainly changed things in
that more people have access tocalling backcountry themselves.
And there have been severalincidences in Zion where The
satellite company has contactedZion Dispatch and notified them
(29:51):
that there is a call for helpwithin the park boundaries.
And we have hiked up and foundthe party and helped them.
And so it has been very helpful.
Katie (30:01):
That's nice.
Gordon (30:03):
But at the same time, as you've discovered when you were
doing Mystery Canyon, is thatthese satellite devices still
have considerable slot canyons.
And, that satellite's got to goover, there's got to be a clear
sky, you've got to have a windowof time.
And so sometimes that, call forhelp may not actually be sent
(30:24):
out for several hours.
So, it's not the end all device.
It still has considerablelimitations.
And I think it's a good idea forpeople who frequent the back
country and wilderness areas tohave it because it's available
to us now, but there should beother thoughts and other methods
and other plans, to, call forhelp or to.
(30:47):
You know, work through yourrescue scenarios without
depending on it completely.
Carma (30:52):
right.
Or like you talked about thattimeline of by the time someone
hikes out, can get a message outand then it's dark and like, you
still may need to stay the nightin the canyon.
So you need to be prepared forthat scenario, whether you're
carrying an inReach or not.
Katie (31:10):
That can't be your primary way of, of rescuing
yourself.
Carma (31:15):
yeah,
Gordon (31:16):
You can't put so much trust into that that you forego
the other good planning andequipment that you might have to
spend an unexpected night out.
One of the lectures I do withthe park rangers every couple
years and with local EMS is Ihave a lecture that I...
Titled, The Unexpected Nightout, and I talked about some of
(31:38):
these issues and what, what gearthey should take as a rescuer
and if they're just personally,you know, going through canyons
and hiking and climbing andstuff, so.
Katie (31:47):
That makes a lot of sense.
Carma (31:48):
yeah, especially if you're, yeah, on the rescue
team, you're gonna do it, right?
Eventually you're gonna spend anight in a canyon.
Gordon (31:56):
Yeah.
Katie (31:57):
want to.
Gordon (31:59):
one of the most common, calls, to the park rangers.
But doesn't always require afull on rescue team rescue, is
party overdue.
That is frequent all through theseason over in Zion.
There's a party overdue,someone's loved ones or family
or spouse has called and said,they were supposed to be out
(32:19):
tonight.
They haven't come out andhaven't called me.
And because it's such a commonthing, the rangers don't get too
excited until they get morespecific details and find out
there's truly someone injured orin trouble.
And the reason why Party overdueis so common is because they
truly underestimate thebackcountry of the Zion.
(32:40):
Canyon miles and canyoneeringare not the same as hiking
miles.
Carma (32:45):
right?
Katie (32:45):
That is a really good shout out.
Gordon (32:47):
And specifically Canyon miles and the backcountry of the
Zion are not the same as othermiles.
So someone may read And see anInstagram or a Facebook or even
read on websites about wonderfulsubway hike in Zion National
Park or, the Narrows.
It's one of the greatest hikesin the world, which I can't
(33:09):
argue with.
It's just spectacular.
And they see, it's like, oh,it's nine miles.
Oh, it's six miles.
Oh, it's 12 miles.
And they're like, well, I canhike that.
I, I've hiked a trail like that.
I hiked up to a lake that wassix miles up and back and I did
it in just a few hours.
it's not the same in the backcountry there with route finding
and negotiating slots and poolsand such.
(33:31):
And so, yeah, most of the timethey usually get too late of a
start.
They have someone in their partywho thought they were fit, but
they were not.
And they are truly notphysically prepared for it.
They run into obstacles thatthey have difficulty negotiating
because they don't have theright equipment.
I have seen parties in thesubway, because you can get a
(33:52):
permit for up to 12 people onthe same permit in the subway.
And between the 12 people,they'll have two harnesses.
And they'll have to pass it upto each person, and then down,
up, and down.
And so you can see it, like howone rappel will take them an
hour, hour and a half to do.
Katie (34:08):
Yeah, I've seen that too.
Gordon (34:10):
so, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And so, yeah, underestimatingthe difficulty, that backcountry
miles are not the same as justhiking miles on regular easy
trails, changing weatherconditions.
Even though it's hot summer, itcan get cold in the evening and
(34:31):
then they get fatigued becausethey run out of water.
And another silly thing thatwe've seen in some of our
rescues is they're not injured,that they are sick with heat
related illness and it's becausethey won't drink any water and
they're hiking in water.
And, I find that kind ofinteresting.
It's like, yeah, we'd like topurify water, and I'd always
(34:52):
recommend that you filter waterand have clean water, but when
it comes to life and death, ifyou're hiking in water, and
you're getting to that point,just drink it.
Right You might get a bellyache,you might need an antibiotic for
a week afterwards, but you'll bealive.
Katie (35:07):
You're gonna get through today.
Yeah.
Gordon (35:09):
We have had a couple of deaths in Zion where they hiked
along the stream, not wanting todrink it because they were
afraid of contaminated water,and they succumbed to extreme
dehydration and hyperthermia.
That has
Katie (35:23):
happened Wow.
Carma (35:24):
Wow.
Gordon (35:25):
Yeah, and we, we had one in the subway.
Katie (35:27):
Ah, that's terrible.
Carma (35:29):
Yeah, because the solution to their problem was
right at their feet.
Katie (35:33):
But fear.
Gordon (35:35):
It's a fear that's out of proportion.
Uh, they don't realize that.
Yeah.
Contaminated water may give youa problem, but it's not an
immediate problem and it can be,taken care of rather easily, but
death from, you know,dehydration, hyperthermia and
exhaustion is, rapid and realand in that case, I give you
(35:57):
permission to drink the waterfrom that pool.
ha.
Carma (36:00):
Drink any water you can find.
No no matter
Gordon (36:04):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Carma (36:07):
Awe man
Gordon (36:08):
So you remember Aaron ralston, right?
Katie (36:10):
Yeah, I read his book.
Gordon (36:12):
Ralston, if you can, you know.
I've actually canyoneered withAaron, since his accident, so
I've, had the privilege ofdescending a canyon with him and
watching how he negotiatesrapels with his one, hand and
everything.
It's pretty remarkable.
And, uh, I was able topersonally talk to him about his
story, which was just amazing.
(36:32):
But yeah, when he finally gothimself free, when he came to
that first pool, it was not aclean pool, but he slurped it
down he was at a point where hejust needed the liquid
absolutely
Carma (36:44):
I mean, that was days later, right?
Gordon (36:47):
Yeah two or three
Carma (36:48):
days later?
Katie (36:49):
and we can deal with Giardia later.
Carma (36:52):
it's amazing that even, like, once he got himself free
that he even made it out ofthere.
Katie (37:00):
So along those lines, and talking about canyoneers and the
problems that come up for them,do you think there's any main
root causes in the problems forcanyoneers?
Gordon (37:10):
The root causes for like injuries or need for rescue or,
when they get into trouble inthe canyons, they have, I
Katie (37:21):
we take one step
Gordon (37:22):
yeah, as we've talked, anybody can have trouble on any
given day, even if you'recompletely prepared, you can.
Twist an ankle, you can slip andslide and, you know, break your
leg, you can have rock fall and,you know, they can hit you, you
can lose control of a repel andjust repel too quickly and, you
know, hurt yourself.
(37:42):
I mean, there's just lots ofdifferent ways.
probably the number one way ison the approach, I trip and fall
with my pack.
Carma (37:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Katie (37:51):
gully
Gordon (37:52):
yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, probably some common themesthat, over the years I've seen
with, uh, search and rescue, awe've already gotten over most
of this stuff, but it would be,underestimating the difficulty
and length of the canyon and notgetting an early start.
Not having a mentor or someonewith you who is experienced and
(38:15):
can help you solve the problems.
So, inexperience.
I mean, everyone's got to startsomewhere, but there are just
some activities where It's notbest to just figure it out on
your own.
You really should take a course.
Or you should go with a mentor.
And my climbing background, itwas very important to, establish
(38:36):
a mentor, become friends, orsomehow get into a climbing
group where you could thenshadow and learn from these
mentors.
And in canyoneering, I thinkthat's the same.
There are some courses outthere.
And you can get started thatway, but even so, I think, uh,
you should probably reach out incanyoneering groups and on
social media and try to link upwith people who have experience
(38:59):
and, and get some of thesecanyons under your belt and
start with the simple ones, thegrade two, the grade three,
before you tackle the fours.
Uh, The big three I talk aboutin Zion are, of course, Kolob,
which was my favorite, Imlay.
Especially in low waterconditions where you have to
hook out of many potholes andstuff.
(39:19):
And then heaps.
I consider heaps the mostdifficult canyon in Zion for
multiple reasons.
And I would never recommendanyone that's just done a few...
It's not just hiking andrappelling.
It's way more than that So,yeah.
Katie (39:35):
out to like the rock climbing world.
No one would go trad
Carma (39:39):
yeah
Gordon (39:42):
Yeah, buy their rack and go try climbing.
Katie (39:44):
wouldn't ever go out without a mentor.
Gordon (39:46):
will get injured.
It's not if, they
Katie (39:49):
You will get injured.
Let somebody point out that badpiece instead of having it pop
on you, and yet sometimes youdon't, translate that over
Gordon (39:57):
canyoneering.
Yeah.
Katie (39:59):
That's a very good way to relate it.
Gordon (40:01):
Yeah.
we've had, several injuries andeven, one death I know of in
Zion that they took acanyoneering course the day
before and then they went anddid it themselves the next day.
And I commend them for takingthe course, but they graduated
too quickly to being independentthe next day and thinking they
could do it themselves and itresulted in, uh, their death.
Katie (40:24):
There was somebody I came across that had done the same
thing, and it wasn't as bad.
They were trying to rappel inthe subway on a third hand
through a waterfall and gotstuck on their third hand.
And, like, you commend them.
These folks were from adifferent country, even, and
come and take a course and go dothe canyon the next day and try
to do a beginner canyon.
And without a mentor, just kindof point out how it works and
(40:47):
get your feet wet.
It can be difficult
Gordon (40:50):
Yeah, I agree.
Carma (40:51):
you don't know what you don't know right you need
somebody who knows more than youto help you get through
Katie (40:57):
and I
Gordon (40:57):
Yeah.
Katie (40:57):
application because what you're talking about They
learned a whole lot oftechniques and what I saw is the
wrong application of a goodtechnique.
Gordon (41:04):
For sure.
repelling and waterfalls canreally change things.
Katie (41:09):
yeah
Gordon (41:09):
most challenging.
Situations I've had incanyoneering are log jams and
waterfalls.
They are so tricky anddifficult.
Yeah.
they're just hard to get up on.
The anchor is usually slungaround a little horn, and so you
have to get yourself on repeldown, climb over it, hang, get
(41:31):
your weight on the thing, andeverything's slippery.
And sometimes the logs break.
I mean, it's just, yeah.
I've run into more troubles withdifficult log jams in those deep
slots than I have just, youknow, plain old rappels off of
rocks and.
Pinch points and stuff, yeah.
Katie (41:46):
Yeah, there's recently a fatality in the Pacific
Northwest from a logjam thatfell through
Gordon (41:52):
Yeah,
Katie (41:54):
you know, it's like one of those traps you saw as a kid
in a storybook, but it reallycan come to light in there.
Gordon (42:00):
yeah.
Katie (42:00):
So when a cannoneer does reach the point where they have
called search and rescue to comehelp them out and they've got
somebody maybe stabilized.
What would you say is somethingthat the team can do to help
search and rescue?
So not the victim, but the teamwho's still able, what can they
do to help make things runsmoothly?
Gordon (42:17):
Well, continue to, prepare your injured party for
rescue.
Get them to a safe location ifpossible.
Up out of the floodplain.
Maybe out of the elements, ifit's gonna rain, or if it's
gonna get cold, you can get himinto a little area where you can
form a little cave or pocket forwarmth.
(42:38):
A warming fire in diresituations is sometimes
appropriate.
Make sure that they're dry.
Get wet clothes off and get dryclothes on and wrap them up.
Sometimes you forget that whenyou're damp, it'll just keep you
very wet.
Katie (42:53):
I've wondered about that with a wetsuit.
Gordon (42:55):
Oh yeah, good point.
Katie (42:56):
Do you keep it on?
Do you take it off?
How
Gordon (42:58):
yeah.
Ha, ha.
I've often wondered that myself.
There's not a good, you know,straight answer for that.
I think if you're stillsubmerged partially in the
water, you have no choice butyou gotta leave your wetsuit on.
If you're in a wetsuit butyou're out of the water and
there's a canyon breeze, I thinkit cools you down.
I think you need to get it off.
(43:20):
If you're able to insulate thewetsuit, like, putting,
windbreaker or a barrier aroundit, then that would be okay.
One of the things we do on oursearch and rescue team is when
we rescue people, is we try toremove their wet clothes, but if
that's kind of impossiblesituation, we then, put that
vapor barrier around them thenin a sleeping bag and then keep
(43:41):
them covered there.
So yeah, keep them warm dry ifpossible.
If you really think they'regoing to be there overnight, you
know, keep them hydrated.
Keep them calm talk to them andthen if there's more than one
person in the party, maybeconsider, only having one or two
people stay with the patient andthen get everyone else moving
and out.
(44:02):
Because when a team comes in, ofcourse they gotta focus on the
injured party, but if they alsonow have multiple other members
of the party that they have toworry about, that becomes more
of a burden.
So, I think it's a good ideathat you start thinking about
everybody in the party.
And it's like, okay, well, onlyone of us needs to stay.
We're going to leave this muchgear here.
(44:23):
Everyone else let's get moving.
Let's get out and let's selfrescue ourselves out of this
situation and let the Rangerstake over.
Yeah.
Carma (44:29):
yeah,
Katie (44:30):
Now, logistically, that would mean that you'd need to be
able to split into two differentgroups and still have enough
rope to get everybody out,Right.
Gordon (44:38):
Right.
Katie (44:39):
people aren't going with in the helicopter,
Gordon (44:40):
Right.
Well, if, you're in thatsituation where you're still
repelling, then you may have tostay together as a party.
Yeah.
I would just stay together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Katie (44:50):
through it there, or if you
Gordon (44:51):
Yeah.
Katie (44:51):
rope, you could.
Gordon (44:52):
Right.
Katie (44:53):
There's one rappel
Gordon (44:54):
Which brings another interesting question.
Do I take extra rope throughcanyons?
I personally like to repel ondouble ropes most of the time.
I mean, I'm familiar with thebeaner block method, and I often
use it in certain scenarios, butI sometimes will take enough
rope to repel through a canyonusing, the double strand method.
(45:16):
I know you want it like, say,fast and light.
But you gotta have a good firstaid kit, you gotta have some
good layers to keep yourselfwarm in case you get an
unexpected night out, and Ithink extra rope is not a bad
idea, even if it's...
Maybe, not the full strength,but more like a pull cord type
thing so that you have theability to, if you lose part of
(45:39):
your rope or you need to splitand you can send someone ahead,
it's not a bad idea.
I've talked to Bo Beck.
I don't know if you guys know BoBeck.
Do you know Bo?
Bo is the he's the manager ofthe Desert Rat
Carma (45:52):
Oh,
Gordon (45:53):
Yeah, Okay.
Yes.
Carma (45:57):
I've talked to him multiple
Gordon (45:58):
Well, if there's anyone that's more of an expert than
me, it would be Bo Beck.
Cause you know, he's been herein St.
George many years and he startedcanyoneering probably in a few
years before I did, and aclimber.
And he was involved in searchand rescue in Zion for many
years and probably went on a lotmore calls than me.
And he's always in the storethere giving advice and getting
(46:21):
stories from people and stuff.
And, Bo and I've discussed this.
We both tend to err on the sideof carrying a little extra rope
through a canyon.
Because of all the stories we'veheard over the years, and we
just think it's a good idea tohave extra rope.
Katie (46:35):
We're on team extra rope as well, so you're among friends
here.
I mean, you could have a coreshot, you could stick one, you
could need to break
Gordon (46:43):
Yeah.
Katie (46:44):
and we're on a team of, well, bring a few extra friends,
and it's not heavy.
Gordon (46:48):
Yeah, that's,
Carma (46:49):
right?
Gordon (46:49):
for sure.
Yeah,
Carma (46:51):
we're all about having options.
Katie (46:55):
Is there anything that you want the canyoneering
community to know or do so thatwe can all be a little safer and
reduce the number of search andrescue calls out in Zion?
Gordon (47:06):
As the canyoneering community grows, I think it
would be a great idea if theydid find mentors and classes
that get better prepared beforethey venture out there.
And although it may seem,limiting and quite a hassle,
there are rules in place over inZion National Park regarding
canyoneering for a good reason.
(47:27):
They have limits on the numberof, Canyoneers through a
particular drainage day.
Some of that is just because theaesthetics of the backcountry.
They don't want to spoil theexperience for the typical
person, to have so many peoplein the same canyon, you know, in
a wilderness setting.
But it's also, because if youget too many people stacked up
(47:49):
on the rappels, then that can bea, an issue of getting people
through the canyon in a timelymanner.
And also protect the resource.
You know, keep things lookingwilderness like.
So, understand why Zion has thepermit system, and it has the
limits, and it has the ethics,and abide by them, always.
And then, know that the searchand rescue team is there, and,
(48:13):
willing and ready to help.
They're highly trained, they'reexcited to do it, but at the
same time, just know thatwhenever you call someone to do
that, that there is some riskinvolved and there will be
people out there, risking, someinjury or even their life in
certain situations and to not,lean upon that too much, not,
you know, do it lightly.
Carma (48:34):
Yeah.
Gordon (48:35):
I started canyoneering about 1996 when it was not very
popular or common.
And I started doing some of thecanyons in Zion.
of the times I went down throughthe canyons, I had to have a
bolt kit because the anchorswere not yet set and, it still
needed a way down.
(48:55):
I don't carry a bolt kit verymuch anymore unless I'm doing a
first descent with somebody.
And now, most people descend acanyon without leaving hardware
behind.
But it just shows you that whenI started, I always carried a
bolt kit.
Katie (49:14):
Plan A.
Gordon (49:15):
Yeah, and I've kept a log, and since 2005, I am at 318
canyon descents.
Carma (49:24):
Nice.
And, every year I try to do anew canyon I haven't done
Gordon (49:29):
before.
And I'm able to do that.
Katie (49:31):
That's fantastic.
Congratulations.
Gordon (49:34):
have to, you know, of course, expand to the Grand
Canyon, over by Moab.
I mean, all of canyon country isa fair game.
One of my personal firstdescents this last year was in
Ecuador, so that was prettycool.
Carma (49:47):
Wow.
Gordon (49:47):
Yeah, down a big waterfall canyon, that was
really awesome.
Um,
Katie (49:52):
as far as Costa Rica, but I've heard Ecuador is fantastic.
Gordon (49:56):
yeah.
Katie (49:56):
Well, then we have to ask you, what's your favorite
canyon?
And I'm gonna double down on itby, what is your favorite
canyoneering experience?
So it doesn't have to be thecanyon was your favorite, but
the trip that just, you smileevery time you think about it.
Gordon (50:10):
Oh.
Katie (50:11):
I know it wasn't on the list, so I'll give you a minute,
Gordon (50:14):
Well, I've been asked that question many, many times
because, My home base is Zion,and I canyoneer over and over
there, and I've done some ofthose canyons, you know, times.
Katie (50:25):
Yeah.
Carma (50:27):
Yeah.
Gordon (50:28):
But it's always different.
It's a different time of year, adifferent year.
With different, you know, waterlevels and conditions and
different people, so it's alwaysjust a wonderful experience, but
if they really pin me down, myfavorite is Kolob Canyon from
the top, where you start and godown through the technical
section and then come out allthe way through the narrows.
(50:50):
And just this last September, Idid Kolob out through the
narrows, which usually take twodays to do that.
Katie (50:58):
Yeah.
Gordon (50:59):
absolutely love every minute from the start to the
finish of doing Kolob outthrough the narrows.
Katie (51:05):
That's awesome.
Carma (51:06):
Sounds amazing.
That's, on our list.
Neither of us have gotten to hitthat one yet, but it's on our
Gordon (51:12):
Yes.
Another really good one is, oneof the Lake Powell Canyons.
And, Michael Kelsey, in hisbook, I think it's, I forget the
name of it, Canyoneering on TheColorado
Katie (51:24):
The orange one.
Gordon (51:25):
it is, it, yes.
Katie (51:28):
with that book when there wasn't all sorts of
Gordon (51:30):
Okay, well, in one of the canyons, he makes the
comment, This is the bestoverall canyon on the Colorado
Plateau.
And I thought, what?
What?
The Colorado Plateau, like,everywhere.
And it had such a genericsounding name.
(51:51):
It was West canyon.
Katie (51:53):
Huh.
Gordon (51:53):
Canyon.
Katie (51:54):
Doesn't sound special at all.
Gordon (51:55):
No,
Carma (51:56):
there could be a hundred
Gordon (51:57):
Ha ha ha.
West Canyon I've done threetimes.
First time I was not able tocomplete it.
The conditions were such, and Iunderestimated it.
Ha ha.
But I've done it twice since.
And.
So you have to take a boat upthe lake, leave your boat at the
end.
Tie it off.
(52:17):
Hope it's going to be there whenyou come back in a couple of
days.
And you hike for miles up abeautiful canyon that has spring
water running through it.
And then you get up onto the rimand hike for several more miles
and drop into the slot.
And you canyoneer.
Through just the deepest,darkest slot.
(52:37):
You need a headlamp for a fewsections.
And then you still have to dothe six miles back to your boat
through a wonderful canyon.
It just has everything that youwant in canyoneering.
It's challenging, it'sdifficult, it's remote, it's
beautiful, it's just got anamazing slot, it's wild.
It's technically on the Navajoside of Lake Powell, so anytime
(53:02):
you leave the water and go upinto the canyons on the south
side or the Navajo side, youneed to have a permit from the
Navajo Nation.
I've found that usually prettyeasy to obtain, they're willing
to give you a permit if youjust...
Pay the fee but West Canyon ispretty spectacular.
Katie (53:21):
Thanks for the recommendation.
Gordon (53:22):
But, really hard
Carma (53:25):
Yeah.
Katie (53:26):
Don't underestimate it, huh?
Gordon (53:27):
Yeah.
And it has some tributaries orside canyons and I may still go
do a couple of those that, youhave to have ghosting techniques
to do that.
Katie (53:36):
Right.
Gordon (53:36):
So you got to have the sand traps, the water traps.
You got to have pot shots.
You got to have a good group,
Katie (53:42):
Good group with a lot of gear.
Yeah.
Awesome
Carma (53:45):
And we truly appreciate you and everyone who works with
you in Search and Rescue and isputting themselves at risk and
is taking time away from theirfamilies and their jobs and
caring about people strangers.
That is unique and we aregrateful for that.
What can we in the canyoneeringcommunity do to support search
(54:10):
and rescue in Zion?
Is there somewhere we can donateor anything?
What can we do to support searchand rescue?
Gordon (54:20):
Some of the funding comes from entrance fees from
the visitors of Zion.
And, uh, some of it is allocatedlike usual, you know, through
budgets and things like that.
I don't know the best way to,like, target search and rescue
for Zion.
I think probably the best waywould be to be an advocate for
(54:41):
Congress to continue to fund ournational parks and, provide
adequate funding for ourvisitation and our rescue
services there.
Carma (54:52):
Right.
Well, and what number is Zionnow on visitation?
Is it the second or third mostvisited park?
Gordon (54:59):
Right.
Katie (55:00):
then Zion.
Carma (55:00):
Yeah.
Or Grand Canyon or
Gordon (55:03):
Well, Grand Canyon's huge.
Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, theGreat Smoky Mountains, just
because it's near big populationcenters and people drive over
there.
But I, I'm pretty sure Zion's inthe top four.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it was like 4.
7 million people last year.
Carma (55:19):
Wow.
so many.
Gordon (55:21):
I remember when it hit 2 million people, we thought that
was ridiculous.
Katie (55:24):
Wow.
Carma (55:25):
Yeah.
now it's more than doubled fromthat.
Katie (55:28):
Well, I think that's great because if we keep voting
for that and advocating forthat.
Then we can keep those highclass rangers that you're
talking about.
And then you have really skilledpeople around, contributing and
being there for it.
Gordon (55:41):
Right.
Carma (55:42):
So as it turns out, the Zion Forever Project is the
official non profit partner ofZion National Park.
You've maybe seen their logos onthe park store doors at the
visitor center.
They have an emergency servicesfund to support the efforts of
the Zion Search and Rescue team.
So to make a donation, just goto zionpark.
(56:05):
org slash SAR or click on thelink we'll provide in the show
notes.
Katie (56:10):
Awesome.
Well, Gordon, we are so thankfulfor you and the teams that you
work with and everybody out atZion National Park.
And we're grateful for youspending your time with us,
helping our listeners fill insome gaps in knowledge and just
painting an awesome picture forus so that we know what we can
do out there to help search andrescue.
And when's the right time topush the button.
(56:31):
Thanks for being here.
Gordon (56:32):
Thank you for having me on the podcast.
I always get excited talkingabout canyoneering anytime.
Carma (56:43):
Hey, Canyon Crew, we need your help to grow the show.
If you learned somethingvaluable from this episode,
please share it with a friend.
You can also help more amazingcanyoneers find the show by
giving us a rating and review onyour favorite podcast listening
app.
Lastly, if you'd like to fundour quest for great canyoneering
content, click on the supportthe show button in the show
(57:06):
notes As always, thanks fordropping in with us.
We'll catch you on the rap side.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
I'm Katie
Carma (00:10):
and I'm Carma and you're listening to, I'd rather be
canyoneering.
Katie (00:14):
We're best friends who totally geek out about canyon
rigging and beautifully slotcanyons.
Basically we'd always rather becanyoneering.
But when we can't, we spendevery spare minute, we have
talking about it.
Carma (00:26):
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
Please seek professionalinstruction and practice
technical skills in a controlledenvironment before entering slot
canyons.
Your safety is entirely your ownresponsibility.
Katie (00:41):
Welcome to our canyon crew!
Carma (00:46):
Hey everyone.
Welcome back.
It's getting really close toThanksgiving and Something that
we're super thankful for asCanyoneers are all the wonderful
people who work in search and
Katie (00:58):
rescue Yeah, we are!
Carma (01:00):
because we know that they have our back.
And so we have a really awesomeopportunity today.
We're going to get to speak withGordon Larson who's been working
with Zion search and rescue forquite some time.
Welcome to the show, Gordon.
Gordon (01:15):
Thank you.
It's good to be here.
Carma (01:18):
first off, Gordon, we just want to get to know you.
So can you tell us what yourrole is with Zion Search and
Rescue?
Gordon (01:25):
I am the medical advisor for Zion National Park.
And I also participate withtheir search and rescue program.
I have been doing that as avolunteer 26 years now.
Katie (01:39):
that's impressive.
Gordon, Roughly, how many SARcalls do you think you've been
involved in?
Over the years?
Gordon (01:45):
Well, it's hard to say exactly because I don't keep a
log, but I estimate I have...
I have been involved in someform or another in about 60
different rescue scenarios overin Zion National Park.
Katie (01:58):
Wow.
Carma (01:59):
what is your medical background?
Gordon (02:01):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I'm one of the emergencyphysicians at St.
George Regional Hospital.
I am board certified inemergency medicine and have a
fellowship in wildernessmedicine.
I'm also a climber and canyoneerand, uh, have participated in
(02:22):
rope rescue and search andrescue training over these many
years with my association withZion.
So some of the ways I'm involvedwith Search and Rescues, because
I am on duty at the hospital,you know, I work shifts at the
emergency department, when weget a call out for a search and
rescue, I'm not always able togo because like, well, I'm on
(02:43):
duty or I go on duty in sixhours.
So I can't drive over to ZionBut often if they're in the
field and they have aninteresting or difficult or
serious medical Situation theywill call me on the phone And so
I'm in touch with them sometimesdirectly by phone and sometimes
through radio relay the dispatchradio relay to the patient and
(03:05):
so some of the medical decisionsare made that way.
Carma (03:08):
so are you a volunteer or are you paid by the Park Service
Gordon (03:13):
I am a volunteer, although when search and rescue
teams gather, they do getcompensated for their time on
the rescue itself.
Carma (03:26):
Okay,
Katie (03:26):
That's good.
Yeah.
Can you explain the process tous of what happens when somebody
places a SAR call?
Gordon (03:34):
there are many different ways for a call to come in to
the park service needing arescue.
Zion National Park is a nationalpark and a federal agency, but
it also is inside WashingtonCounty and the state of Utah.
And so there's, many overlappingagencies, but essentially in
(03:57):
some manner a call has to cometo dispatch at, the emergency
operations center in, ZionNational Park.
This can be from a shuttle busdriver, from a reporting party,
like a third party, it can befrom one of the other rangers.
In some cases it can be from thesatellite services that you can
(04:23):
subscribe to and they'll notifythe dispatch at Zion that
there's been a signal sent fromwithin the park boundaries.
Katie (04:30):
Gotcha.
So there's a lot of differentthings that could be happening
depending on which way that callcame in.
Gordon (04:35):
Correct.
So, let's say it finally gets todispatch that somebody might
need help.
On duty that day, one of theRangers, and they're usually
involved in law enforcement, AndEMS and SAR and some of these
Rangers and trained in allthree.
So, and, uh, I really likeworking with the Zion Rangers.
(04:59):
They're almost always collegegraduates.
They're highly motivated to workfor the park service.
They love to be outside.
And yeah, they're fire trained.
They're federal law enforcementtrained.
They're paramedic trained.
They're search and rescue.
And they're just Awesome people.
to hang out with.
Katie (05:16):
Sounds like
Carma (05:16):
Yeah.
Katie (05:17):
people.
Carma (05:18):
Yeah.
Gordon (05:19):
But anyway, so one of these guys, gals, or guys, cause
it's, about 50 50 over therenow, the female male rangers,
one of them is assigned, And asIC incident commander and, when
they're an IC, they then decidehow much resources is going to
be, sent towards this complaint.
(05:39):
So one of the first things theyneed to do is this legitimate
call.
And if they're not sure, or ifit's like so, so they send out
the hasty team.
to go find out the details.
Where exactly are they?
What it's going to take to getthem out of there?
And, you know, are medicallyunstable?
And then, uh, IC will then put apage in to the search and rescue
(06:01):
system, which there are a coreof about 10 rangers in Zion who
are trained, some of them highlytrained, and then several
members of the community inSpringdale.
They're usually guides, orthey're, dirtbag climbers
looking for a little extra money
Carma (06:20):
Mm
Gordon (06:21):
and a few EMS guys and then a few from the community
like me that have long termrelationships or interest, you
know in Washington County andZion search and rescue and stuff
and so that page goes outprobably to about 30 And when
they say, oh, we need 10 peopleto respond, you call it
dispatch.
(06:41):
And usually the first 10 thatrespond will be on that, you
know, call.
And then sometimes they'll doadditional pages.
We need four more or somethinglike that.
So then they assemble the teamat the EOC.
And they go through the wholescenario, they talk about the
safety of everything, what'sgoing to need to be done.
We have a search and rescue van,which has all the equipment.
And then the IC at this pointdecides whether a helicopter can
(07:05):
be of help in this situationtoo.
And, then they dispatch theoperation, and some operations
are done.
90 minutes and some go on fortwo days, you know, so and the
other thing is there could bemultiple Incidences at the same
time which is not uncommon on abusy weekend in Zion where you
(07:25):
have maybe a Rescue off one ofthe hiking trails like up to
emerald pools But now we have acall out of the narrows and oh,
yeah, someone's hurt in thebottom of Pine
Katie (07:34):
Yeah.
Gordon (07:35):
You know things like that
Carma (07:36):
Mm hmm.
Katie (07:37):
Or weather might cause you to have the same type of
incident everywhere around thepark.
Gordon (07:42):
well that brings up a whole new category of issues and
problems with Zion is, uh, flashfloods.
Yeah, I have been on somerescues where we are racing the
clock on you know, storms comingin and There's been a couple
times where we've actuallyextracted the team and waited
for the flash flood threat topass before we put him back in
Carma (08:03):
Wow.
Yike.
Yeah.
Gordon (08:04):
or hopeful that the injured party is at least up on
the side out of the way.
Katie (08:09):
Yeah.
Difficult choices to make atthat point, and really a lot of
respect for people who arewilling to go in and be in that
zone.
Gordon (08:16):
Right.
And Zion National Park has achallenge in that communications
is difficult.
Even with cell phone towers andsatellite and radio towers and
stuff, because of the deep slotcanyons in Zion, it is still a
considerable challenge to, havereal time communication
(08:38):
throughout the park.
Carma (08:39):
yeah, I'm thinking of, when we went down Mystery, I
forgot to send my message to,everyone at home that we were,
dropping into the death gully.
And so, we were partway down itwhen I tried to send, with my
inReach to be like, hey, we'redropping into the canyon, just
updating everyone.
It took, a couple hours for itto finally,send, because we were
so deep.
Gordon (09:01):
Yeah.
That's the challenge.
And in fact, sometimes some ofthe first stages of, Finding
someone out in the backcountry,one of the assignments or roles
for one of the search and rescuemembers is to be radio relay.
We will spot people up on ridgesor certain prominent points to
just stay there and to be arelay between dispatch and the
(09:23):
team that's out on the groundbecause of these exact
challenges.
Carma (09:27):
Yeah, that?
makes a lot of sense.
Like a mini cell tower, or whatare you carrying to do that?
Katie (09:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gordon (09:33):
The Park Service has, radios other than that, I
couldn't tell you the details ofthe specifics of them, but,
Carma (09:39):
course, Katie wants to know the, the, the audio
engineering side
Katie (09:45):
that's part of my background.
Gordon (09:48):
Sometimes they'll give me one and say, okay, this is
the channel we're on.
This is how you transmit it.
Don't touch anything else.
Carma (09:57):
don't change any
Katie (09:58):
Don't break my toys you can just you can play with it,
Gordon (10:00):
Yeah, so, one of the questions I do get is when
someone calls for a search andrescue, a SAR rescue in Zion,
how much does it cost them?
And, fortunately, Zion SARprogram does not charge anyone
for a rescue.
Now, once, once they reach EMS,the medical helicopter or an
(10:24):
ambulance on the road, thentypical medical, charges and
fees and applications apply.
But the search and rescueprogram at Zion is totally
funded within the Park Service.
Katie (10:38):
Awesome
Carma (10:38):
Yeah.
Katie (10:41):
So having been out there on so many of these and been on
so many different positions onthe team, you really have a well
rounded sense of what's goingon.
What do you think are thefactors that get people into the
most trouble in the back countryof Zion?
Whether canyoneering or not, butjust in general.
Gordon (10:57):
yes.
Not everything that search andrescue responds to in Zion
National Park is related tocanyoneering.
And in fact, probably themajority of calls are from just
the main trails.
But because of the uniquetopography of Zion, lot of the
rescues do turn into a canyoneerexperience because, we're
(11:17):
talking the Zion Narrows, which.
In a way, it's canyoneering, itjust might not be the most
technical, but it does involvedescending the narrow slot
canyon.
The subway, which has a fewshort rappels, uh, but is the
site of many of our rescues andso forth.
lot of the rescues do involve,people that are encountering
(11:41):
challenging descents throughwet, cold, narrow corridors.
the vast majority of injuries incanyoneering and in the
backcountry are to the lowerextremity.
When someone jumps or slidesdown and, breaks their ankle or
breaks their legs or dislocatestheir knee, and then they're not
(12:03):
able to progress on their ownand they need a rescue at that
point.
Carma (12:08):
Right, which is super difficult to provide, right?
To get to them and get them out.
Gordon (12:15):
you know, when I started participating with Search and
Rescue, and you see, in yourmind you picture a litter, and
like six volunteers carryingsomeone along, it looks
reasonable, but if you ever doit in person, after about a
hundred feet over ruggedterrain, six people are fairly
exhausted, and so.
(12:37):
Anytime we have to, rescuepeople out of difficult, rugged
terrain, more than just a fewhundred feet, it becomes, quite
the operation.
And, also, you have to take intoaccount that you can sustain
injuries to the, rescue membersin these, conditions.
Yeah.
Carma (12:57):
yeah,
Katie (12:58):
Especially if you're going into these narrow slots
and trying to maneuver somethingthat's super solid.
Do you think that in general therescue teams end up doing
helicopter lifts because of thenature of these rescues and how
difficult and strenuous theywould be if you tried to
continue down canyon?
Gordon (13:14):
Yes, absolutely, uh, using helicopters in Zion
National Park has increased infrequency over the past 20
years, for several reasons.
One is we have more helicopterrescue services available to us.
Some is through the parkservice.
One's based out of Grand CanyonNational Park.
(13:35):
The Utah Highway Patrol has ahelicopter that's trained for
rescue, and then some of themedical helicopters locally can
provide some assistance.
So whenever we have an extendedrescue deep in the backcountry
of Zion, one of the first thingsthey do is assess the situation
and see how can a helicopterhelp us.
(13:56):
Uh, whether it's insertingmembers of the SAR team to get
there quickly.
Or to get the injured patient orparties out of there.
Unfortunately, not everyscenario is conducive to the
helicopters.
They cannot land in the heart ofthe Narrows, you know, in the
Wall Street area.
(14:17):
They can't land up in the subwaysection.
In fact, most of the time theyactually don't land.
When we use the helicopters,they use the long line method or
hoist.
Or what they call short haul,
Carma (14:31):
Yeah.
Gordon (14:32):
Have a rescuer dangling from about a 200 foot rope and
they hover over the site, theyattach the patient and the
rescuer to the line, and thenthey lift up.
I'm sure it's an exhilaratingride for the injured injured
party and the ranger.
And they take him to thenearest, spot on the road where
(14:52):
they then put him down and thenfrom there we can transfer him
to a medical helicopter or puthim in the back of an ambulance
and take him on to the hospitalfrom there.
Or in some cases where theirinjury is minor, but the rescue
is so difficult, they thenrefuse transport and go by
private car at that point.
Carma (15:08):
Yeah, it makes sense.
Katie (15:10):
What does it look like when you can't use the
helicopter?
Gordon (15:14):
Let me give you a typical kind of scenario in
Zion.
Um, every year the SAR teamresponds to serious falls from
canyoneers and climbers andoften their fatalities.
And the team has to eventuallyextract the body and the
process.
And then there's a few that areso critically injured that it's
(15:37):
very time sensitive and they dorisk personnel and equipment
with judgment, you know, toexpedite, but the, majority of
injuries and rescues, are notlife threatening.
And so you have a little bit oftime to sort it out.
kind of a typical standardrescue in Zion, which may occur
(15:57):
in the narrows or in the subwayor sometimes up in Pine Creek
is, between 2 p.
m.
and 4 p.
m.
in the afternoon, somebody getsinjured.
Usually they slide down, or theyjump, and they fall, and they
break their leg, or theydislocate their shoulder, or
something similar to that.
(16:17):
So then, they can't make atelephone call, because there's
no cell service there.
So someone has to hike out, andnotify someone to then get hold
of the rangers at dispatch.
So this is going to take two tofour hours and so It's between 4
p.
m.
And 6 p.
m.
(16:38):
on a typical Saturday or Sunday,we'll get a call A page goes out
from search and rescue you need10 for a rescue in the narrows
Katie (16:46):
Wow.
Gordon (16:47):
report to dispatch need eight for a carry out on the
Kayenta trail or Need 10 for atechnical rescue out of the
subway.
It's always kind of the lateafternoon early evening and
Katie (17:01):
Witching hour.
Gordon (17:02):
Yes, and in the meantime usually what the incident
commander for the park will dois they'll send a hasty team
which usually one to threeRangers that can hike quickly
that know the canyon and Takesome minimal gear and their
bags, you know first aid stuffAnd usually some food and water,
(17:23):
a little sleeping bag, and, someclothing.
And they'll hike quickly to thevictim and find out the details,
like just how bad are they hurt,with a little bit of help, can
they help them self rescue, orare they really incapacitated
and are going to need a fullrescue.
And, uh, sometimes about dark,they determined that, okay, it's
(17:46):
going to take a full rescue.
It's going to take a fulloperation and we get them out of
here.
It's now dark.
We can't really launch thehelicopter.
It's kind of getting dangerousfor people who come in for the
night.
And so they spend the night withthe patient.
Carma (17:58):
okay,
Gordon (17:59):
Yeah, they will, give them pain medication.
They'll splint them, put them ina warm sleeping bag, make sure
they have dry clothes, and thenjust hunker down with them for
the night.
And then the next morning wefinished the rescue operation.
That has happened many times inZion.
In the Narrows and the Subway.
I was just, About six weeks ago,I hiked in on one of those
(18:19):
scenarios.
And, I had to work the next day,so I didn't volunteer and stay
with the patient.
But, made sure they weresplinted and comfortable.
And then she had two rangerswith her.
And I was like, oh, I'm sorry,but I gotta hike out.
Go to the hospital in themorning to work.
Maybe I'll see you there.
So,
Carma (18:38):
ha, see you when you get there,
Katie (18:39):
sounds like a hasty ranger has to be willing to
suffer a little bit.
Oh man.
Gordon (18:44):
you're absolutely right.
A lot of times in those hastysearches, When they throw their
gear together, they always throwin some personal gear just in
case this is going to go muchlonger than they think, because
it does do that.
Which actually brings me to, oneof the questions asked What do I
think is essential that everyoneshould put in their first aid
(19:07):
kit or have in their pack ifthey're in the back country of
Zion or doing canyoneering
Katie (19:11):
Right.
everyone's trying to go lightand fast, but what are the
things that you do want in therewithout taking the kitchen sink?
Tell us Gordon, please.
Gordon (19:20):
Exactly.
I am an advocate of, light andfast.
Whenever I go canyoneering withpeople, they kind of do make a
comment.
They're like, well, why don'tyou stop and enjoy a little bit?
And I'm like, well, when we getthrough the technical section,
I'll kind of tone down theurgency a little bit, because
then I know, okay, we're throughthis.
(19:40):
But even in canyons that aregoing to take me 45 minutes, or
a canyon that's going to take me12 hours, I do have the same
basic things every time.
And, it has proven to be of helpin a few situations.
Any of these kits, you alwayskeep in mind that you hope to
(20:01):
never use the gear.
but that's exactly when you needit is when you're not expecting
it.
So, I think everyone shouldhave, an emergency blanket or a
little emergency bivvy sack.
That they can crawl into orcover themselves.
I think they should have a lightlayer of clothing like a light
(20:23):
jacket or a little tiny puffythat will pack down.
Even in the summer in Zion, thedeep slots can get really cold
at night, surprisingly cold.
Uh, I always take a littlebeanie, a little lightweight
beanie as well.
Personal first aid kit,Obviously several band aids, a
(20:45):
light roll of gauze.
And a roll of, uh, medical tape.
Headlamp with extra batteries,
Carma (20:53):
yep, heh heh,
Gordon (20:56):
Matches with a little candle.
Katie (20:59):
Can you tell us about that?
That was new to me last year.
So can you just tell for thelisteners who are wondering,
what are you going to do with acandle?
Gordon (21:05):
Oh, well, I mean, it can provide backup in case, like,
say your headlamp got way toowet and it was supposed to be
waterproof and it wasn't, and soyou don't have any light.
So it provides another thing oflight.
But if you make yourself alittle shelter, sometimes a
little candle can give you alittle bit of warmth.
Katie (21:24):
Awesome.
Gordon (21:25):
I mean, I'm not talking about canyoneering when we're
building snow caves, but anyonewho's ever built a snow cave and
spent a night in it knows thatif you put a candle or two in
there, it's remarkable, uh, howmuch warmth it brings to that
little area that you're hangingout in.
So, I always have just a smallcandle in mine.
Oh, a knife.
A small knife.
(21:46):
About 15 feet of cord,cordelette.
But it's small, so it's not toobulky.
Carma (21:54):
mm hmm.
Gordon (21:55):
Uh, a Sam splint.
Carma (21:57):
Yes, I always carry mine.
Gordon (22:00):
Yeah.
Ah.
Heh heh.
think more important than sizeis just one of them.
My canyon one is probably one ofthe smaller ones, but I always
just have it in the back part ofmy pack there.
It's so light, you don't evenknow it's there, and it can be
so helpful.
Those are the things right off Ican think of that I take every
(22:21):
time.
And I've had people kind oftease me a little bit over the
years, uh, 110 degree day inZion, I've got all this little
stuff, including a puffy jacket.
Carma (22:33):
Mm hmm.
Gordon (22:34):
But, uh, I'd much rather have it Yeah.
Katie (22:37):
like crazy at nighttime.
And I think until you've been inthere, it's hard to even fathom
how cold it can get on a summernight.
Carma (22:44):
Especially when you're wet or you've been wet and
you're trying to warm up, it canbe really cold.
Gordon (22:52):
I was talking with some of the Rangers the other day
because we were reflecting onthe things that we see over in
Zion and, hypothermia isactually been a considerable
part of the injuries andproblems we've seen with
canyoneers over the years.
And again, as I, and you kind ofget the feeling, Oh, it's the
(23:13):
desert.
It's very hot down there andeverything, but, all times of
the year, and especially in thespring and the fall, hypothermia
is an issue in, people that arecanyoneering and it contributes
to poor decision making andtheir injuries.
for sure.
And several of our deaths overthe past couple years in Zion
(23:34):
canyoneering has been attributedto hypothermia.
Carma (23:38):
Are you finding that people are not taking thick
enough wetsuits and things?
Is that contributing to it?
overall cold conditions gettingon top of people.
Gordon (23:49):
Not so much that they don't take enough wetsuits is
that they don't take them atall.
That, like they say, well I canmake it through the Pine Creek
slot, it's right by the tunnelhighway there.
It's only got a handful ofrappels and most people can do
it in a couple hours.
But that slot is deep and darkand wet and when you get several
(24:12):
people staged at the rappels itslows you down and, there have
been several incidences of,people needing help and rescue
from the SAR team in Pine Creekthat was related to hypothermia.
Yeah.
Katie (24:28):
I
Gordon (24:34):
But the majority of people, get cold quite easily.
It's only a few of you reallyhusky guys that seem to be able
to tolerate it really well.
And don't let them be the onethat says, Oh, we're going to be
fine in there.
And yeah.
Katie (24:50):
learned to make my temperature call on my own a
long time ago.
Gordon (24:54):
Yeah, when it, comes to conditions in the canyons,
regarding temperature, I woulderr on the side of caution and
be, more than prepared for coldconditions.
There's been a few times whereI've left my wetsuit in my pack
and carried it through and Idon't think there's anything
wrong with that.
Carma (25:11):
Yeah.
because you had it if you wouldhave needed it.
Yeah,
Gordon (25:15):
right.
Katie (25:15):
So, some people struggle to figure out when in the
backcountry is it a good time tocall SAR.
No matter how prepared you are,sometimes things go sideways,
and what would you say are goodreasons to call SAR?
Gordon (25:30):
That is a, an issue or a question that of course is
debatable, but I come from arock climbing background and The
way I was taught by my mentorand through the years of
climbing is that you self rescueif at all possible.
And you always take a little bitof gear with you to escape a
(25:53):
climb, to self rescue.
And you have that, mindset incertain situations that, well,
I'm going to solve my ownproblems here.
And so, I think that shouldstill be the case in
canyoneering.
I think you should, in yourgroup.
think through things, maybe havea little bit of contingency
plan, have the extra gear alongfor rescue and, have the, the
(26:18):
mindset that we're going tosolve our own problems.
Carma (26:21):
Mm hmm.
Gordon (26:21):
And in canyoneering, sometimes that can be some of
the most rewarding situations iswhere you've come across
something that's unexpected, oryou have a rope that gets stuck,
or, someone gets, you know,minorly injured, how are you
going to deal with this, and Ithink that's part of the fun and
challenge of canyoneering andadventure climbing, you know,
big routes and alpine routes.
But having said that, there is apoint where it might be the time
(26:45):
to reach out and call forrescue.
And when you do that, uh, youdon't want to delay it so far
that you've actually now pushedyour window out to where they
can't rescue you that, very day,or you've put yourself in a
situations now worse because youheld off.
So there is a, period ofjudgment there where.
(27:07):
Okay, it's great that you'retough and everything, but you
should have probably called forrescue a few hours earlier, but
that, that should probably be ona case by case basis.
But once you decide that you'regoing to call for rescue, you're
now going to involve otherpeople, not only their time,
their equipment, but, the riskof them being in, the situation
that you are and coming to helpand all that's involved in,
(27:28):
traversing usually rugged and,and wilderness type terrain.
Carma (27:32):
hmm.
Gordon (27:33):
I think that a good rule of thumb would be is if you have
someone that has a broken lowerextremity and they cannot walk
anymore, then that's likely whenyou're going to need some help.
Carma (27:47):
Yeah.
Gordon (27:47):
If you have someone that has altered mental status, they
are no longer coherent or ableto talk or communicate, that
would be an indication for rapidhelp.
Someone that has unstable vitalsigns or hemorrhage.
They're bleeding and you can'tseem to control it, and in some
way you're able to tell theirvital signs are not stable,
(28:08):
they're not a super fast heartrate, they're having a hard time
breathing, you can obviouslytell the urgency of the
situation.
Carma (28:15):
Mm hmm.
Gordon (28:16):
Uh, if there's a significant risk of
environmental exposure, like,hypothermia, like we're not
going to survive the night if wedon't call for help.
not just be uncomfortable.
There's a difference between,yeah, you're really cold and
uncomfortable and you're coldand hungry and you just want to
get home to like, okay, this isserious life threatening
hypothermia.
(28:36):
I need to reach out.
Carma (28:38):
Yeah, I saw, video, earlier this year, from
helicopter picking up somepeople in the subway when there
was snow and ice everywhere.
And I was like, whew, yeah, Imean, that, that would be that
kind of situation.
Like, we will not survive thenight in
Gordon (28:55):
Yes.
Yes, those young men werefortunate to have survived that
experience.
Carma (29:00):
Yeah, it
Gordon (29:01):
Yeah.
Carma (29:03):
Another kind of general, search and rescue question.
We touched on it a little bit,the personal satellite devices
that everybody has now, but howdo you think,'cause you've been
with Search and Rescue probablylong enough to see the
difference between, you know,before everyone had these
devices and now when they'reseem to be common, at least in
(29:25):
our groups that we run aroundwith are common.
How has that changed search andrescue?
Gordon (29:31):
The satellite devices have certainly changed things in
that more people have access tocalling backcountry themselves.
And there have been severalincidences in Zion where The
satellite company has contactedZion Dispatch and notified them
(29:51):
that there is a call for helpwithin the park boundaries.
And we have hiked up and foundthe party and helped them.
And so it has been very helpful.
Katie (30:01):
That's nice.
Gordon (30:03):
But at the same time, as you've discovered when you were
doing Mystery Canyon, is thatthese satellite devices still
have considerable slot canyons.
And, that satellite's got to goover, there's got to be a clear
sky, you've got to have a windowof time.
And so sometimes that, call forhelp may not actually be sent
(30:24):
out for several hours.
So, it's not the end all device.
It still has considerablelimitations.
And I think it's a good idea forpeople who frequent the back
country and wilderness areas tohave it because it's available
to us now, but there should beother thoughts and other methods
and other plans, to, call forhelp or to.
(30:47):
You know, work through yourrescue scenarios without
depending on it completely.
Carma (30:52):
right.
Or like you talked about thattimeline of by the time someone
hikes out, can get a message outand then it's dark and like, you
still may need to stay the nightin the canyon.
So you need to be prepared forthat scenario, whether you're
carrying an inReach or not.
Katie (31:10):
That can't be your primary way of, of rescuing
yourself.
Carma (31:15):
yeah,
Gordon (31:16):
You can't put so much trust into that that you forego
the other good planning andequipment that you might have to
spend an unexpected night out.
One of the lectures I do withthe park rangers every couple
years and with local EMS is Ihave a lecture that I...
Titled, The Unexpected Nightout, and I talked about some of
(31:38):
these issues and what, what gearthey should take as a rescuer
and if they're just personally,you know, going through canyons
and hiking and climbing andstuff, so.
Katie (31:47):
That makes a lot of sense.
Carma (31:48):
yeah, especially if you're, yeah, on the rescue
team, you're gonna do it, right?
Eventually you're gonna spend anight in a canyon.
Gordon (31:56):
Yeah.
Katie (31:57):
want to.
Gordon (31:59):
one of the most common, calls, to the park rangers.
But doesn't always require afull on rescue team rescue, is
party overdue.
That is frequent all through theseason over in Zion.
There's a party overdue,someone's loved ones or family
or spouse has called and said,they were supposed to be out
(32:19):
tonight.
They haven't come out andhaven't called me.
And because it's such a commonthing, the rangers don't get too
excited until they get morespecific details and find out
there's truly someone injured orin trouble.
And the reason why Party overdueis so common is because they
truly underestimate thebackcountry of the Zion.
(32:40):
Canyon miles and canyoneeringare not the same as hiking
miles.
Carma (32:45):
right?
Katie (32:45):
That is a really good shout out.
Gordon (32:47):
And specifically Canyon miles and the backcountry of the
Zion are not the same as othermiles.
So someone may read And see anInstagram or a Facebook or even
read on websites about wonderfulsubway hike in Zion National
Park or, the Narrows.
It's one of the greatest hikesin the world, which I can't
(33:09):
argue with.
It's just spectacular.
And they see, it's like, oh,it's nine miles.
Oh, it's six miles.
Oh, it's 12 miles.
And they're like, well, I canhike that.
I, I've hiked a trail like that.
I hiked up to a lake that wassix miles up and back and I did
it in just a few hours.
it's not the same in the backcountry there with route finding
and negotiating slots and poolsand such.
(33:31):
And so, yeah, most of the timethey usually get too late of a
start.
They have someone in their partywho thought they were fit, but
they were not.
And they are truly notphysically prepared for it.
They run into obstacles thatthey have difficulty negotiating
because they don't have theright equipment.
I have seen parties in thesubway, because you can get a
(33:52):
permit for up to 12 people onthe same permit in the subway.
And between the 12 people,they'll have two harnesses.
And they'll have to pass it upto each person, and then down,
up, and down.
And so you can see it, like howone rappel will take them an
hour, hour and a half to do.
Katie (34:08):
Yeah, I've seen that too.
Gordon (34:10):
so, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And so, yeah, underestimatingthe difficulty, that backcountry
miles are not the same as justhiking miles on regular easy
trails, changing weatherconditions.
Even though it's hot summer, itcan get cold in the evening and
(34:31):
then they get fatigued becausethey run out of water.
And another silly thing thatwe've seen in some of our
rescues is they're not injured,that they are sick with heat
related illness and it's becausethey won't drink any water and
they're hiking in water.
And, I find that kind ofinteresting.
It's like, yeah, we'd like topurify water, and I'd always
(34:52):
recommend that you filter waterand have clean water, but when
it comes to life and death, ifyou're hiking in water, and
you're getting to that point,just drink it.
Right You might get a bellyache,you might need an antibiotic for
a week afterwards, but you'll bealive.
Katie (35:07):
You're gonna get through today.
Yeah.
Gordon (35:09):
We have had a couple of deaths in Zion where they hiked
along the stream, not wanting todrink it because they were
afraid of contaminated water,and they succumbed to extreme
dehydration and hyperthermia.
That has
Katie (35:23):
happened Wow.
Carma (35:24):
Wow.
Gordon (35:25):
Yeah, and we, we had one in the subway.
Katie (35:27):
Ah, that's terrible.
Carma (35:29):
Yeah, because the solution to their problem was
right at their feet.
Katie (35:33):
But fear.
Gordon (35:35):
It's a fear that's out of proportion.
Uh, they don't realize that.
Yeah.
Contaminated water may give youa problem, but it's not an
immediate problem and it can be,taken care of rather easily, but
death from, you know,dehydration, hyperthermia and
exhaustion is, rapid and realand in that case, I give you
(35:57):
permission to drink the waterfrom that pool.
ha.
Carma (36:00):
Drink any water you can find.
No no matter
Gordon (36:04):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Carma (36:07):
Awe man
Gordon (36:08):
So you remember Aaron ralston, right?
Katie (36:10):
Yeah, I read his book.
Gordon (36:12):
Ralston, if you can, you know.
I've actually canyoneered withAaron, since his accident, so
I've, had the privilege ofdescending a canyon with him and
watching how he negotiatesrapels with his one, hand and
everything.
It's pretty remarkable.
And, uh, I was able topersonally talk to him about his
story, which was just amazing.
(36:32):
But yeah, when he finally gothimself free, when he came to
that first pool, it was not aclean pool, but he slurped it
down he was at a point where hejust needed the liquid
absolutely
Carma (36:44):
I mean, that was days later, right?
Gordon (36:47):
Yeah two or three
Carma (36:48):
days later?
Katie (36:49):
and we can deal with Giardia later.
Carma (36:52):
it's amazing that even, like, once he got himself free
that he even made it out ofthere.
Katie (37:00):
So along those lines, and talking about canyoneers and the
problems that come up for them,do you think there's any main
root causes in the problems forcanyoneers?
Gordon (37:10):
The root causes for like injuries or need for rescue or,
when they get into trouble inthe canyons, they have, I
Katie (37:21):
we take one step
Gordon (37:22):
yeah, as we've talked, anybody can have trouble on any
given day, even if you'recompletely prepared, you can.
Twist an ankle, you can slip andslide and, you know, break your
leg, you can have rock fall and,you know, they can hit you, you
can lose control of a repel andjust repel too quickly and, you
know, hurt yourself.
(37:42):
I mean, there's just lots ofdifferent ways.
probably the number one way ison the approach, I trip and fall
with my pack.
Carma (37:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Katie (37:51):
gully
Gordon (37:52):
yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, probably some common themesthat, over the years I've seen
with, uh, search and rescue, awe've already gotten over most
of this stuff, but it would be,underestimating the difficulty
and length of the canyon and notgetting an early start.
Not having a mentor or someonewith you who is experienced and
(38:15):
can help you solve the problems.
So, inexperience.
I mean, everyone's got to startsomewhere, but there are just
some activities where It's notbest to just figure it out on
your own.
You really should take a course.
Or you should go with a mentor.
And my climbing background, itwas very important to, establish
(38:36):
a mentor, become friends, orsomehow get into a climbing
group where you could thenshadow and learn from these
mentors.
And in canyoneering, I thinkthat's the same.
There are some courses outthere.
And you can get started thatway, but even so, I think, uh,
you should probably reach out incanyoneering groups and on
social media and try to link upwith people who have experience
(38:59):
and, and get some of thesecanyons under your belt and
start with the simple ones, thegrade two, the grade three,
before you tackle the fours.
Uh, The big three I talk aboutin Zion are, of course, Kolob,
which was my favorite, Imlay.
Especially in low waterconditions where you have to
hook out of many potholes andstuff.
(39:19):
And then heaps.
I consider heaps the mostdifficult canyon in Zion for
multiple reasons.
And I would never recommendanyone that's just done a few...
It's not just hiking andrappelling.
It's way more than that So,yeah.
Katie (39:35):
out to like the rock climbing world.
No one would go trad
Carma (39:39):
yeah
Gordon (39:42):
Yeah, buy their rack and go try climbing.
Katie (39:44):
wouldn't ever go out without a mentor.
Gordon (39:46):
will get injured.
It's not if, they
Katie (39:49):
You will get injured.
Let somebody point out that badpiece instead of having it pop
on you, and yet sometimes youdon't, translate that over
Gordon (39:57):
canyoneering.
Yeah.
Katie (39:59):
That's a very good way to relate it.
Gordon (40:01):
Yeah.
we've had, several injuries andeven, one death I know of in
Zion that they took acanyoneering course the day
before and then they went anddid it themselves the next day.
And I commend them for takingthe course, but they graduated
too quickly to being independentthe next day and thinking they
could do it themselves and itresulted in, uh, their death.
Katie (40:24):
There was somebody I came across that had done the same
thing, and it wasn't as bad.
They were trying to rappel inthe subway on a third hand
through a waterfall and gotstuck on their third hand.
And, like, you commend them.
These folks were from adifferent country, even, and
come and take a course and go dothe canyon the next day and try
to do a beginner canyon.
And without a mentor, just kindof point out how it works and
(40:47):
get your feet wet.
It can be difficult
Gordon (40:50):
Yeah, I agree.
Carma (40:51):
you don't know what you don't know right you need
somebody who knows more than youto help you get through
Katie (40:57):
and I
Gordon (40:57):
Yeah.
Katie (40:57):
application because what you're talking about They
learned a whole lot oftechniques and what I saw is the
wrong application of a goodtechnique.
Gordon (41:04):
For sure.
repelling and waterfalls canreally change things.
Katie (41:09):
yeah
Gordon (41:09):
most challenging.
Situations I've had incanyoneering are log jams and
waterfalls.
They are so tricky anddifficult.
Yeah.
they're just hard to get up on.
The anchor is usually slungaround a little horn, and so you
have to get yourself on repeldown, climb over it, hang, get
(41:31):
your weight on the thing, andeverything's slippery.
And sometimes the logs break.
I mean, it's just, yeah.
I've run into more troubles withdifficult log jams in those deep
slots than I have just, youknow, plain old rappels off of
rocks and.
Pinch points and stuff, yeah.
Katie (41:46):
Yeah, there's recently a fatality in the Pacific
Northwest from a logjam thatfell through
Gordon (41:52):
Yeah,
Katie (41:54):
you know, it's like one of those traps you saw as a kid
in a storybook, but it reallycan come to light in there.
Gordon (42:00):
yeah.
Katie (42:00):
So when a cannoneer does reach the point where they have
called search and rescue to comehelp them out and they've got
somebody maybe stabilized.
What would you say is somethingthat the team can do to help
search and rescue?
So not the victim, but the teamwho's still able, what can they
do to help make things runsmoothly?
Gordon (42:17):
Well, continue to, prepare your injured party for
rescue.
Get them to a safe location ifpossible.
Up out of the floodplain.
Maybe out of the elements, ifit's gonna rain, or if it's
gonna get cold, you can get himinto a little area where you can
form a little cave or pocket forwarmth.
(42:38):
A warming fire in diresituations is sometimes
appropriate.
Make sure that they're dry.
Get wet clothes off and get dryclothes on and wrap them up.
Sometimes you forget that whenyou're damp, it'll just keep you
very wet.
Katie (42:53):
I've wondered about that with a wetsuit.
Gordon (42:55):
Oh yeah, good point.
Katie (42:56):
Do you keep it on?
Do you take it off?
How
Gordon (42:58):
yeah.
Ha, ha.
I've often wondered that myself.
There's not a good, you know,straight answer for that.
I think if you're stillsubmerged partially in the
water, you have no choice butyou gotta leave your wetsuit on.
If you're in a wetsuit butyou're out of the water and
there's a canyon breeze, I thinkit cools you down.
I think you need to get it off.
(43:20):
If you're able to insulate thewetsuit, like, putting,
windbreaker or a barrier aroundit, then that would be okay.
One of the things we do on oursearch and rescue team is when
we rescue people, is we try toremove their wet clothes, but if
that's kind of impossiblesituation, we then, put that
vapor barrier around them thenin a sleeping bag and then keep
(43:41):
them covered there.
So yeah, keep them warm dry ifpossible.
If you really think they'regoing to be there overnight, you
know, keep them hydrated.
Keep them calm talk to them andthen if there's more than one
person in the party, maybeconsider, only having one or two
people stay with the patient andthen get everyone else moving
and out.
(44:02):
Because when a team comes in, ofcourse they gotta focus on the
injured party, but if they alsonow have multiple other members
of the party that they have toworry about, that becomes more
of a burden.
So, I think it's a good ideathat you start thinking about
everybody in the party.
And it's like, okay, well, onlyone of us needs to stay.
We're going to leave this muchgear here.
(44:23):
Everyone else let's get moving.
Let's get out and let's selfrescue ourselves out of this
situation and let the Rangerstake over.
Yeah.
Carma (44:29):
yeah,
Katie (44:30):
Now, logistically, that would mean that you'd need to be
able to split into two differentgroups and still have enough
rope to get everybody out,Right.
Gordon (44:38):
Right.
Katie (44:39):
people aren't going with in the helicopter,
Gordon (44:40):
Right.
Well, if, you're in thatsituation where you're still
repelling, then you may have tostay together as a party.
Yeah.
I would just stay together.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Katie (44:50):
through it there, or if you
Gordon (44:51):
Yeah.
Katie (44:51):
rope, you could.
Gordon (44:52):
Right.
Katie (44:53):
There's one rappel
Gordon (44:54):
Which brings another interesting question.
Do I take extra rope throughcanyons?
I personally like to repel ondouble ropes most of the time.
I mean, I'm familiar with thebeaner block method, and I often
use it in certain scenarios, butI sometimes will take enough
rope to repel through a canyonusing, the double strand method.
(45:16):
I know you want it like, say,fast and light.
But you gotta have a good firstaid kit, you gotta have some
good layers to keep yourselfwarm in case you get an
unexpected night out, and Ithink extra rope is not a bad
idea, even if it's...
Maybe, not the full strength,but more like a pull cord type
thing so that you have theability to, if you lose part of
(45:39):
your rope or you need to splitand you can send someone ahead,
it's not a bad idea.
I've talked to Bo Beck.
I don't know if you guys know BoBeck.
Do you know Bo?
Bo is the he's the manager ofthe Desert Rat
Carma (45:52):
Oh,
Gordon (45:53):
Yeah, Okay.
Yes.
Carma (45:57):
I've talked to him multiple
Gordon (45:58):
Well, if there's anyone that's more of an expert than
me, it would be Bo Beck.
Cause you know, he's been herein St.
George many years and he startedcanyoneering probably in a few
years before I did, and aclimber.
And he was involved in searchand rescue in Zion for many
years and probably went on a lotmore calls than me.
And he's always in the storethere giving advice and getting
(46:21):
stories from people and stuff.
And, Bo and I've discussed this.
We both tend to err on the sideof carrying a little extra rope
through a canyon.
Because of all the stories we'veheard over the years, and we
just think it's a good idea tohave extra rope.
Katie (46:35):
We're on team extra rope as well, so you're among friends
here.
I mean, you could have a coreshot, you could stick one, you
could need to break
Gordon (46:43):
Yeah.
Katie (46:44):
and we're on a team of, well, bring a few extra friends,
and it's not heavy.
Gordon (46:48):
Yeah, that's,
Carma (46:49):
right?
Gordon (46:49):
for sure.
Yeah,
Carma (46:51):
we're all about having options.
Katie (46:55):
Is there anything that you want the canyoneering
community to know or do so thatwe can all be a little safer and
reduce the number of search andrescue calls out in Zion?
Gordon (47:06):
As the canyoneering community grows, I think it
would be a great idea if theydid find mentors and classes
that get better prepared beforethey venture out there.
And although it may seem,limiting and quite a hassle,
there are rules in place over inZion National Park regarding
canyoneering for a good reason.
(47:27):
They have limits on the numberof, Canyoneers through a
particular drainage day.
Some of that is just because theaesthetics of the backcountry.
They don't want to spoil theexperience for the typical
person, to have so many peoplein the same canyon, you know, in
a wilderness setting.
But it's also, because if youget too many people stacked up
(47:49):
on the rappels, then that can bea, an issue of getting people
through the canyon in a timelymanner.
And also protect the resource.
You know, keep things lookingwilderness like.
So, understand why Zion has thepermit system, and it has the
limits, and it has the ethics,and abide by them, always.
And then, know that the searchand rescue team is there, and,
(48:13):
willing and ready to help.
They're highly trained, they'reexcited to do it, but at the
same time, just know thatwhenever you call someone to do
that, that there is some riskinvolved and there will be
people out there, risking, someinjury or even their life in
certain situations and to not,lean upon that too much, not,
you know, do it lightly.
Carma (48:34):
Yeah.
Gordon (48:35):
I started canyoneering about 1996 when it was not very
popular or common.
And I started doing some of thecanyons in Zion.
of the times I went down throughthe canyons, I had to have a
bolt kit because the anchorswere not yet set and, it still
needed a way down.
(48:55):
I don't carry a bolt kit verymuch anymore unless I'm doing a
first descent with somebody.
And now, most people descend acanyon without leaving hardware
behind.
But it just shows you that whenI started, I always carried a
bolt kit.
Katie (49:14):
Plan A.
Gordon (49:15):
Yeah, and I've kept a log, and since 2005, I am at 318
canyon descents.
Carma (49:24):
Nice.
And, every year I try to do anew canyon I haven't done
Gordon (49:29):
before.
And I'm able to do that.
Katie (49:31):
That's fantastic.
Congratulations.
Gordon (49:34):
have to, you know, of course, expand to the Grand
Canyon, over by Moab.
I mean, all of canyon country isa fair game.
One of my personal firstdescents this last year was in
Ecuador, so that was prettycool.
Carma (49:47):
Wow.
Gordon (49:47):
Yeah, down a big waterfall canyon, that was
really awesome.
Um,
Katie (49:52):
as far as Costa Rica, but I've heard Ecuador is fantastic.
Gordon (49:56):
yeah.
Katie (49:56):
Well, then we have to ask you, what's your favorite
canyon?
And I'm gonna double down on itby, what is your favorite
canyoneering experience?
So it doesn't have to be thecanyon was your favorite, but
the trip that just, you smileevery time you think about it.
Gordon (50:10):
Oh.
Katie (50:11):
I know it wasn't on the list, so I'll give you a minute,
Gordon (50:14):
Well, I've been asked that question many, many times
because, My home base is Zion,and I canyoneer over and over
there, and I've done some ofthose canyons, you know, times.
Katie (50:25):
Yeah.
Carma (50:27):
Yeah.
Gordon (50:28):
But it's always different.
It's a different time of year, adifferent year.
With different, you know, waterlevels and conditions and
different people, so it's alwaysjust a wonderful experience, but
if they really pin me down, myfavorite is Kolob Canyon from
the top, where you start and godown through the technical
section and then come out allthe way through the narrows.
(50:50):
And just this last September, Idid Kolob out through the
narrows, which usually take twodays to do that.
Katie (50:58):
Yeah.
Gordon (50:59):
absolutely love every minute from the start to the
finish of doing Kolob outthrough the narrows.
Katie (51:05):
That's awesome.
Carma (51:06):
Sounds amazing.
That's, on our list.
Neither of us have gotten to hitthat one yet, but it's on our
Gordon (51:12):
Yes.
Another really good one is, oneof the Lake Powell Canyons.
And, Michael Kelsey, in hisbook, I think it's, I forget the
name of it, Canyoneering on TheColorado
Katie (51:24):
The orange one.
Gordon (51:25):
it is, it, yes.
Katie (51:28):
with that book when there wasn't all sorts of
Gordon (51:30):
Okay, well, in one of the canyons, he makes the
comment, This is the bestoverall canyon on the Colorado
Plateau.
And I thought, what?
What?
The Colorado Plateau, like,everywhere.
And it had such a genericsounding name.
(51:51):
It was West canyon.
Katie (51:53):
Huh.
Gordon (51:53):
Canyon.
Katie (51:54):
Doesn't sound special at all.
Gordon (51:55):
No,
Carma (51:56):
there could be a hundred
Gordon (51:57):
Ha ha ha.
West Canyon I've done threetimes.
First time I was not able tocomplete it.
The conditions were such, and Iunderestimated it.
Ha ha.
But I've done it twice since.
And.
So you have to take a boat upthe lake, leave your boat at the
end.
Tie it off.
(52:17):
Hope it's going to be there whenyou come back in a couple of
days.
And you hike for miles up abeautiful canyon that has spring
water running through it.
And then you get up onto the rimand hike for several more miles
and drop into the slot.
And you canyoneer.
Through just the deepest,darkest slot.
(52:37):
You need a headlamp for a fewsections.
And then you still have to dothe six miles back to your boat
through a wonderful canyon.
It just has everything that youwant in canyoneering.
It's challenging, it'sdifficult, it's remote, it's
beautiful, it's just got anamazing slot, it's wild.
It's technically on the Navajoside of Lake Powell, so anytime
(53:02):
you leave the water and go upinto the canyons on the south
side or the Navajo side, youneed to have a permit from the
Navajo Nation.
I've found that usually prettyeasy to obtain, they're willing
to give you a permit if youjust...
Pay the fee but West Canyon ispretty spectacular.
Katie (53:21):
Thanks for the recommendation.
Gordon (53:22):
But, really hard
Carma (53:25):
Yeah.
Katie (53:26):
Don't underestimate it, huh?
Gordon (53:27):
Yeah.
And it has some tributaries orside canyons and I may still go
do a couple of those that, youhave to have ghosting techniques
to do that.
Katie (53:36):
Right.
Gordon (53:36):
So you got to have the sand traps, the water traps.
You got to have pot shots.
You got to have a good group,
Katie (53:42):
Good group with a lot of gear.
Yeah.
Awesome
Carma (53:45):
And we truly appreciate you and everyone who works with
you in Search and Rescue and isputting themselves at risk and
is taking time away from theirfamilies and their jobs and
caring about people strangers.
That is unique and we aregrateful for that.
What can we in the canyoneeringcommunity do to support search
(54:10):
and rescue in Zion?
Is there somewhere we can donateor anything?
What can we do to support searchand rescue?
Gordon (54:20):
Some of the funding comes from entrance fees from
the visitors of Zion.
And, uh, some of it is allocatedlike usual, you know, through
budgets and things like that.
I don't know the best way to,like, target search and rescue
for Zion.
I think probably the best waywould be to be an advocate for
(54:41):
Congress to continue to fund ournational parks and, provide
adequate funding for ourvisitation and our rescue
services there.
Carma (54:52):
Right.
Well, and what number is Zionnow on visitation?
Is it the second or third mostvisited park?
Gordon (54:59):
Right.
Katie (55:00):
then Zion.
Carma (55:00):
Yeah.
Or Grand Canyon or
Gordon (55:03):
Well, Grand Canyon's huge.
Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, theGreat Smoky Mountains, just
because it's near big populationcenters and people drive over
there.
But I, I'm pretty sure Zion's inthe top four.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it was like 4.
7 million people last year.
Carma (55:19):
Wow.
so many.
Gordon (55:21):
I remember when it hit 2 million people, we thought that
was ridiculous.
Katie (55:24):
Wow.
Carma (55:25):
Yeah.
now it's more than doubled fromthat.
Katie (55:28):
Well, I think that's great because if we keep voting
for that and advocating forthat.
Then we can keep those highclass rangers that you're
talking about.
And then you have really skilledpeople around, contributing and
being there for it.
Gordon (55:41):
Right.
Carma (55:42):
So as it turns out, the Zion Forever Project is the
official non profit partner ofZion National Park.
You've maybe seen their logos onthe park store doors at the
visitor center.
They have an emergency servicesfund to support the efforts of
the Zion Search and Rescue team.
So to make a donation, just goto zionpark.
(56:05):
org slash SAR or click on thelink we'll provide in the show
notes.
Katie (56:10):
Awesome.
Well, Gordon, we are so thankfulfor you and the teams that you
work with and everybody out atZion National Park.
And we're grateful for youspending your time with us,
helping our listeners fill insome gaps in knowledge and just
painting an awesome picture forus so that we know what we can
do out there to help search andrescue.
And when's the right time topush the button.
(56:31):
Thanks for being here.
Gordon (56:32):
Thank you for having me on the podcast.
I always get excited talkingabout canyoneering anytime.
Carma (56:43):
Hey, Canyon Crew, we need your help to grow the show.
If you learned somethingvaluable from this episode,
please share it with a friend.
You can also help more amazingcanyoneers find the show by
giving us a rating and review onyour favorite podcast listening
app.
Lastly, if you'd like to fundour quest for great canyoneering
content, click on the supportthe show button in the show
(57:06):
notes As always, thanks fordropping in with us.
We'll catch you on the rap side.
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