May 6, 2023 • 48 mins
Does the idea of having to escape from a pothole intimidate you? Going into Woody Canyon we felt the same way, but it ended up being our favorite canyon of the trip!
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Episode Transcript
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Katie (00:08):
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
I'm Katie
Carma (00:10):
and I'm Carma and you're listening to, I'd rather be
canyoneering.
Katie (00:14):
We're best friends who totally geek out about canyon
rigging and beautifully slotcanyons.
Basically we'd always rather becanyoneering.
But when we can't, we spendevery spare minute, we have
talking about it.
Carma (00:26):
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
Please seek professionalinstruction and practice
technical skills in a controlledenvironment before entering slot
canyons.
Your safety is entirely your ownresponsibility.
Katie (00:41):
Welcome to our canyon crew! For today's episode, we
are going to do our first evertrip report, and we thought that
it would be even more fun ifinstead of Karma and I just
talking about it, we might tellan actual person who was not
with us, but would've loved tobeen with us.
(01:01):
So today we've invited ourfriend Char Evans, who's on our
Canyon crew to come join us.
Say, hi, Shar.
Sharlene (01:08):
Hi.
Katie (01:10):
Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.
Sharlene (01:11):
so I'm Charlene uh, a little bit about me is, I love
doing lots of things in theoutdoors.
I'm a recreational therapist bytrade, so I like to keep that
up.
I live in like the Orum area andhave like three kids and a
husband, and it's fun familylife.
I also volunteer with a groupcalled Mountain Mamas.
(01:35):
And we do a lot more than justcanyoneering.
We do all kinds of adventures,but I'm one of the quote unquote
canyoneering guides.
It's all volunteer runs, sothat's why it's kind of a quote
unquote canyoneering guidething, I enjoy taking women on
adventures and, yeah so that'sjust, that's me.
Katie (01:58):
Awesome.
Thanks for being with us
Carma (02:00):
Yeah.
Sharlene (02:01):
Yep.
Thanks for having me.
Katie (02:02):
and for everyone else, all the listeners out there,
this'll be kind of like acampfire environment where we're
sitting around and tellingstories and asking questions and
this should be a fun episode.
Carma (02:13):
Katie and I just got back from an awesome trip in the
North Wash.
We had so much fun.
It ended up just being the twoof us because we were able to
get away in the middle of theweek, which is like a super hard
time for most people to getaway.
But, um,
Sharlene (02:28):
a miracle.
Carma (02:29):
yeah, it, it really was.
It was like the last weekpossible to do this before my
husband started his new job,which he starts tomorrow.
So we spent a couple days insouthern Utah, near the town of
Hanksville, and that whole areais called the North Wash.
Katie (02:47):
Yeah, and some of you might recognize this area as
where the Leprechaun Canyonsare, the Irish Canyons chale,
blarney, those are all in thesame area.
Carma (02:56):
And our favorite canyon of the trip was Woody Canyon.
Katie (03:01):
Yeah,
Sharlene (03:03):
So how many canyons did you run down there?
Katie (03:06):
four plus
Sharlene (03:08):
Nice.
Wow.
Katie (03:10):
It was that adventure that I'd talked about like a
year ago of doing the poisonsprings area in maybe a figure
eight.
So it was scenic and slide nineand constrict nine, and there's
this upli extravaganza that youcan use to link them and you go
up this unnamed canyon withentirely too much rope on your
(03:32):
back.
But we did those first as awarmup, waiting for the day when
it was not cold or havingpotential snow.
So at a 70 degree weather, wedecided to go get the potholes
that were full of water.
Carma (03:46):
yeah.
Sharlene (03:46):
Awesome.
Yeah, I wanna hear about it.
Carma (03:49):
Yeah, so, Woody Canyon is pothole after pothole after
pothole is how road trip Ryandescribes it.
that was really intimidating tome at first reading the
descriptions.
it also says you need like threepeople minimum for your group,
and it was just me and Katie.
So, um,
Katie (04:12):
we had some good intel.
Carma (04:13):
yeah.
Sharlene (04:14):
I was wondering about that, and so I don't know too
much about potholes.
but in my brain, I alwaysthought, don't you need more?
Don't you need like a team to,you know, partner assist if the
potholes are sketchy or, yeah.
Does that play a big factor inpotholes normally?
Katie (04:33):
Yeah, let me start out by telling people what a pothole
is, in case they don't know.
It's really common to find thesein the desert and maybe a little
less common in other places.
but A pothole is when the canyonwater comes down and a waterfall
carves out, kind of a bowl or atall dish.
Another word for that would belike a silo and.
(04:54):
Those become these kind of darkshafts that you can go down to.
They can be anything from just afoot deep down to, I mean, they
can be 20 feet deep, but theseparticular potholes were mostly
in the 15 foot area, like eightto 15, a lot of that size.
And then those can be dry orthey can be full of water or
(05:15):
they can be half full.
So when they're totally dry,then you can stack people on top
of each other to get out.
when they're full, you couldjust swim over them and you're
pretty easy.
If they're half full, that'swhen they get tricky because you
can't necessarily stack peopleon top of each other.
If three people would beunderwater, that doesn't work
(05:35):
out.
It's harder to stack rocks toget out, harder to stand on
bags, just get a little moretricky.
And so, yeah, definitelyrecommend having more people.
Kind of the more the merrier ina pothole fest.
for us, we actually knew somepeople who have been down this
canyon upwards of 50 times, andthey knew our skillsets really
well, and they had just beenthere the week before lots of
(05:59):
fresh beta on how all thepotholes were, what levels, and
they knew that we'd be able tostem over because they not only
are right around our sameheights, but they've done it
that many times and had been outwith us enough to say, yeah, the
one that might be tricky, youcould stem over.
So we had a lot of really goodintel to make that choice.
Sharlene (06:18):
Okay, so my first question actually is, is there a
difference?
I've heard the lingo like thisis a keeper pothole.
is a keeper pothole the same asa regular pothole?
Katie (06:28):
A keeper.
Pothole is one that usually youneed more than one person to
escape.
And a keeper is one that for anumber of reasons might become
really difficult to get out of,even with two people, maybe even
with three.
So it could be a keeper potholeif it's hard to climb on people
to get out.
Maybe it's really, reallyvertical, or maybe it's kind of
(06:50):
overhung which makes it hard toclimb up, or it could be a
keeper when it's half fullbecause then it's hard to throw
something up and over becauseit's hard to tread water and
throw a pack.
One of the ways to get out ofthe potholes is to fill a bag
with sand and throw it and itcould be a keeper if that throw
is really long and far and maybeyou physically can't throw 40
(07:10):
feet.
And so you might have to do somereally creative things to be
able to get out of it.
Sharlene (07:16):
Cool.
So yeah, like not all potholesare keepers, but keepers are
potholes kinda thing.
Okay.
Carma (07:22):
Yes, exactly.
Katie (07:22):
It's a pothole that is particularly difficult to
escape,
Sharlene (07:26):
Gotcha.
Katie (07:27):
and people have been known to spend hours in them.
Sharlene (07:29):
and that's what this Canyon specifically had, right?
It had a lot of those kinds ofpotholes.
Katie (07:35):
It had one or two that they call keepers
Carma (07:37):
Yeah.
Katie (07:38):
people will say actually that it's in keeper mode because
some of'em are really easy toescape when they're dry, and so
people will put conditions uponline.
It's like, oh yeah, this one'sin keeper mode, or this one's in
swim over easy mode.
Sharlene (07:51):
Right.
Carma (07:52):
it depends on the mode that it's in.
Katie (07:55):
There's one in Neon that we did and that one took a
pyramid of three people to getout and that's a potential
keeper.
If it were full, it wouldn't bethough, cause you just went
right over it.
Sharlene (08:04):
it seems like in general you're always gonna
wanna stay up to date on themost current beta of what's
going on in canyons.
But like, really specificallywith these potholes, it was
really great for you to havelocal beta,
Katie (08:17):
Yeah.
Sharlene (08:18):
very recent information because you really
wanna know what the water levelsof these as they are
consistently like changing.
Katie (08:25):
Yeah, and we got our be from like four days before
Sharlene (08:31):
with all the spring runoff, were they all pretty
full then?
Carma (08:34):
They weren't as full as we thought they would be.
They were kind of, we think likemid-level, like we didn't swim
across the top of any of them,and none of the significant ones
were dry either, so they weresomewhere in the middle.
I think it was in fun mode.
That's what I would say.
Woody was in fun mode because itwas problem solving mode, which
(08:59):
is also keeper mode, but therewasn't anything that got us
trapped for very long.
Like we were able to solve allof the problems that we came up
against.
Katie (09:11):
And most of the time you weren't treading water.
There was one swim at the end,but usually you were just a
little less than shoulders deep.
And so that made it so it waseasy for me to go over and
basically I'd climb into apothole and make sure we could
get out on the other side.
Then I'd come back over andpartner assist karma down into
what would be a significant downclimb.
(09:32):
And so it was nice that I wasn'ttrying to tread water and help
her climb down.
So I think that was a fun modetype of thing.
However, if it'd been a lotdeeper, she probably just
would've jumped right into thewater.
So it's kind of in between wherethat is and how the catches are.
Carma (09:46):
Yeah.
We had two full swimmers.
Yeah.
Cuz we had the, the one, uh,where Katie did some diving and
then, uh, we had the long onethat we had to swim.
Katie (09:57):
Oh yeah, that happened.
Sharlene (09:59):
By diving you mean like diving down into a pothole
or,
Carma (10:04):
Yeah.
Katie (10:05):
Karma's giving me crap because I dropped a basic into
the bottom of a pothole,
Carma (10:10):
She dropped.
She dropped my basic into thebottom
Sharlene (10:13):
Oh, no.
Katie (10:16):
so I had to retrieve it.
I mean, I didn't have to, Icould have bought a new one, uh,
but I chose to get into mydiving mode from my college
days.
Yeah.
And so luckily we had wetsuitson the entire time and they were
hooded wetsuits.
So that's plays a big part inwhether you're going to have fun
(10:36):
in one of these canyons, orwhether you're gonna come out
hypothermic because you might bein the pothole for a while.
And that's also something thatwe kind of gauged so we wouldn't
have karma get in at the sametime as me.
We'd see if I could escape itand once I was ready to help her
out, then she'd get in and comeover that way.
No one's just chilling in thecold water for no good reason.
Sharlene (10:55):
so My other question is, how do you determine what
millimeter of wet suit to wearto these canyons?
Katie (11:02):
Right?
That would be what you find outin your research, you know,
what's suggested and what otherpeople are running with.
It definitely depends on how wetthe canyon is, cuz if it's
totally dry.
Then you're not gonna eat muchof a wetsuit, but if you're
swimming the entire time, you'regonna want something thick and
maybe even five mil and five milon your chest and a hood.
(11:23):
I wore five mil and it had ajacket, so I had 10 on my chest
and I was comfy, cozy, andthat's worked for me in a lot of
canyons.
But you might be able to dropdown if you happen to own a
couple of varieties or you'regonna go rent something in
particular, then that's whereyou look up the bay and see
who's running it, in what mode.
And how big are they?
(11:43):
Because people who are on thesmaller side are getting colder
more easily, or some people arejust more susceptible to cold in
general.
Like I've got Ray nods, sothat'll catch me sometimes if I
wasn't careful.
So I pay attention to who'ssaying, yeah, if you're on the
colder side, you'll wanna dothis or add a vest to your
current wetsuit.
I look and pay a lot ofattention to those types of
things.
Sharlene (12:03):
Cool.
Carma (12:04):
Katie and I both have the same kind of suit, but honestly
I think I probably could haveditched my jacket for a lot of
this canyon until the very endwhen we had to swim, across the
lawn keeper.
I was glad I had the jacket on.
Katie (12:19):
And I couldn't have dove without a hood and a jacket.
So maybe consider some of thosethings that might be a rescue
scenario where you might be inthe water longer or.
You know, or if you're theperson, I mean, this would
really suck, but if you're theonly person in your group
wearing a wetsuit, theneveryone's gonna vote you to be
the person to stay in the waterand help people out all day
long.
And you're gonna maybe even getcolder if you're the only person
(12:41):
wearing a wetsuit.
Sharlene (12:43):
look At those worst case scenarios like, Hmm, if I
drop my basic in the water, Imight need to retrieve it.
Katie (12:49):
Yeah.
Hmm.
That might happen.
Sharlene (12:51):
Things might happen.
Carma (12:53):
Right, or like the whole thing with the keeper pothole is
that it could keep you in therefor a long time.
When you're in the shade inreally cold, canyon water, how
long can you maintain your bodytemperature in that situation?
So,
Katie (13:09):
And how bad is the wind?
The day before there were 20mile an hour winds and 40 mile
an hour gusts.
If you had had all thatevaporative cooling on your
body, you might need a jacket toput over the wetsuit if it was a
really windy day like that,
Sharlene (13:23):
do you ever have canyons where you do a dry suit?
Katie (13:27):
You could.
Yeah, you could.
they're popular in Zion.
They rent'em for Zion.
Seattle has dry suit canyons fora long time.
They're kind of looked down on,cuz you might get a leak and
people are saying, oh, thatblows everything and you've lost
all your heat.
But a lot of those leaks arepretty slow.
So it just kind of depends onwhat you're comfortable with.
(13:47):
If you're more afraid of rippingyour dry suit or if you're more
afraid of being cold.
But I've seen it work for a lotof people, so it's up to you.
Sharlene (13:55):
I was gonna ask you a question.
You know, it sounds like there'sa lot of terms I'm used to, like
partner assists with getting outof potholes.
And I know a little bit aboutwhat a potshot is, but yeah, if
you could explain what a potshotis and then maybe did you have
to like, use an ISIS hook?
Is that what that is?
Carma (14:15):
Oh,
Sharlene (14:16):
I abyss.
So yeah, I'm really unfamiliarwith the mechanical means of
getting out of potholes as wellas, the skillset of getting out
of potholes.
So if you could like, talk aboutsome of the gear.
Katie (14:27):
Yeah.
So some of the main ways ofgetting out of potholes is a
partner assist, so somebodyboosting you up, or maybe a
couple of people boosting you upto get you up there.
One of the really cool thingsabout it is you can have one
person standing up against thepothole and another person
pushing them into the potholewall to help keep it stabilized
and then another person canclimb up.
So that's cool.
(14:48):
Some other ways to get out areto throw some sort of a bag of
sand, like a pot shot is a namebrand.
And then I think the other oneis an escape bag.
I think that's the on rope one.
And those you fill'em up withsand and then cinch'em shut.
And then they have two handlesthat you tie your rope to, so
you chuck that rope up past thepothole that you're gonna get
(15:09):
into so that it goes up and overthe lip of it.
And when it drops over the otherside, that gives it 90 degrees,
of friction going up and over.
And that helps it to stay down.
So you kind of.
Tend to send lighter people overfirst if you're in a big group
so that it holds, and then theycan help the other person
handline up or grab onto a cordthat they're holding or put down
(15:31):
a foot strap.
Or you might even bring two potshots.
Or two of those bags.
Or three of those bags so thatyou can throw over extra weight.
And that way any size personcould go over first, and that's
really helpful.
Carma (15:44):
Yeah, and it really depends on the canyon geometry
of the specific pothole thatyou're trying to escape from.
So you throw the potshot first,the bag of sand before you even
get into the pothole a lot ofthe times so that you're high up
and you have space to throw.
You're not like down in a holetrying to throw it out.
you try to throw it
Katie (16:05):
The basketball shot does not work.
Don't do that.
Carma (16:08):
especially if you're treading water.
Sharlene (16:10):
Right.
I was thinking if you can'ttouch the ground, if you don't
have that momentum, that wouldbe a big issue.
Katie (16:15):
Yeah, so throw before you go,
Carma (16:17):
Yeah, throw before you go.
That's a good tagline, Katie.
Um, you're gonna throw,whatever, you know, your pot
shots or your packs, whateveryou're using as your weight over
the lip of the pothole beforeyou even get into it.
And it just kind of depends onthe canyon geometry, how much
weight you need in, the pot shopbag, like how much sand, whether
(16:41):
it's dry or wet.
And then whether you're gettingover like a really big, lip, cuz
some of the edges of thesepotholes are just like a balance
beam width wide that you'restanding on.
Katie (16:53):
you're barely riding the pony.
Carma (16:54):
Yeah.
if it's one like that whereyou're gonna throw it over and
this bag of sand, the pot shotis gonna like sink way down into
the water.
So you have the weight of thatdown and then the rope going up
and over.
This saddle like that gives youa lot of friction.
And usually just one pot shotwas enough for one of us to
climb out on.
It was enough weight and enoughfriction for us to climb that
(17:17):
rope,
Katie (17:18):
but it feels like a flat exit.
If you came into a pothole andthen it was just flat for a
while, There were very few ofthose in Woody.
Those are tricky because yourbag's just gonna come right back
at you, so you'd have to throwmore of them and maybe do more
climbing work in order to notwait it as soon.
And so that worked better onones that had more footholds,
(17:39):
and you kind of might wanna sendyour best climber if it's got a
pretty flat exit to it.
Carma (17:45):
right.
Sharlene (17:46):
That makes sense.
I'm just processing.
So if the angle doesn't go likeyou said, directly up and back
down, then that definitelythrows off the whole friction on
the rock so that makes sense.
Katie (17:59):
They actually used to teach firefighters that they
could repel off their oxygentanks if they put it up and over
a window sill because they had a90 degree bend on it, and that
90 degree bend added so muchfriction.
So yeah, when you think of those90 degree bends you can think
of, that's a lot of friction.
That's good.
But then think of your tabletopand how things slide right off
of it.
Sharlene (18:18):
Right.
Okay.
That makes a lot of sense.
Carma (18:21):
And Something that we learned by doing this canyon is
that when you're choosing yourrope length for a pothole
canyon, you need to consider notonly like the vertical length of
rope that you're gonna have touse, but also.
The horizontal distances thatyou're going to have to cover.
Katie (18:42):
Right?
Carma (18:43):
So when you're choosing your rope length in a pothole
canyon, you need to make sureyou have enough rope for your
longest repel and for yourlongest throw.
Sharlene (18:54):
Oh, okay.
Carma (18:55):
And you may need to.
Double or triple the length ofyour longest throw.
If you're going to be throwinglike two or three pot shots,
each potshot needs an end ofrope attached to it for climbing
up on.
A couple of like 60 footers or100 footers can be really handy.
in a pothole canyon.
(19:15):
And this is a spot where again,it really helped that we knew
people who knew this canyonreally well and gave us.
Very specific beta because whenwe were reading the Road Trip
Ryan description, we got reallyconfused cuz it said the longest
repel was like 33 feet.
(19:37):
And so we're thinking, allright, so minimum we need, you
know a 70 foot rope and then atthe top of the beta, it said for
the rope length that you shouldbring it said you needed a
hundred foot rope.
And the math just didn't add up.
Katie (19:55):
Yeah
Carma (19:56):
we're like, that's more rope than you need to do that
long repel.
So why is he saying that we needthis a hundred foot rope?
When our only repel is 33 feetlong, and when we were in the
canyon and we had that reallylong throw at the end, we
realized, Oh, when you're doinga pothole Canyon, pay attention
(20:19):
to the rope length if they haveone that they recommend you to
bring, because it's not justabout vertical feet it's also
about horizontally, like how farare you gonna have to throw,
what is your biggest pothole?
Katie (20:32):
Yeah
Carma (20:32):
then also how many pot shots or packs are you gonna be
throwing, because you need ropeattached to each one.
So that you can climb out on'em.
Sharlene (20:41):
Right.
Carma (20:42):
And honestly, two in this canyon with the potholes being
one right after another, rightafter another.
We did, take the pot shot andactually had the rope stretched
across more than one pothole,you know?
So that's the thing too.
It's not just how long is theone longest pothole, but how
long is like the sequence thatyou're gonna need to keep your
(21:04):
rope going through to, you know,get everybody across, the
obstacles.
Katie (21:09):
Right?
Sharlene (21:09):
and did you need to, in this canyon, use any hooks or
other hardware or things likethat?
I.
Carma (21:17):
we didn't have to use.
Any hooks to hook out of apothole in this particular
canyon.
So that's another way to escapea pothole is to use like IBUs
hooks or what are the grapplinghook ones called Katie the,
Talents.
Yeah.
So we didn't have to like useany of those on the rock to get
(21:40):
up and out of a pothole in thisparticular canyon.
But that is a common strategy,like I believe, uh, Emily, you
have to do that, right?
You have to hook out a potholes.
Katie (21:51):
Yeah.
So Emily has a lot of hookingand.
It's not just the hook that getsyou outta there.
The hook is attached to a ladderan H V A, and you basically, use
two of'em to go up the wall oryou can hook one and then maybe
get really high up the ladderand get out that way.
But sometimes you need two, onefor each of your Feet.
So you can move up, put anotherhook in, move up, put another
(22:13):
hook in, and it becomes a lotlike aid climbing.
It is basically, and yeah,that's another way we didn't
need to do that,
Carma (22:21):
No.
Katie (22:22):
but it's nice to have those as a oh crap exit.
It was cleaner to do this onewith pot shots and you didn't
leave a bunch of scarringbehind.
So it's nice when you can do itwith partner assists and not
hooks so that you don't scar therock behind you.
Sharlene (22:35):
Right.
It would make sense to not havethat be your immediate go-to
since we're trying to do LenaTrace and stuff.
Katie (22:41):
Exactly trying to do leave no trace.
That's like, okay, we'll trythat last, it's in my back
pocket.
We brought them and I broughtlike five of them, so I'd have
different sizes, but yeah,that's more of the last resort.
Sharlene (22:52):
So I just realized you said different sizes.
So I mean, in that respect, it'skind of.
Similar to like trad climbing,how they have different sizes
for different, like cracks andstuff.
Okay.
So that's kind of what you'relooking at with like hooks and
Katie (23:06):
Yeah.
The Talon has three on it andit's really cool cuz it goes in,
it looks like a grappling hook.
It has three sides to it.
And so you can pick the widthand depth and angle a little bit
on'em, and that's cool.
And then the two feet come inand help keep that pressure on
the wall nicely.
So the talons are really cool.
The other ones are also verycool.
(23:27):
But they have more of a depth tothem.
Sharlene (23:29):
How do you know what size of like hooks or, did you
say cloths is that they are
Katie (23:37):
It was a talon.
It was one of the hooks.
Yeah, it It's one of the hooksthough.
Hooks is the big word.
So yeah,
Sharlene (23:42):
Okay.
I guess that just depends on theresearch that you do.
Will they typically say, Hey,you need this size of hook, or,
Katie (23:50):
sometimes.
Sometimes they're as good aslike our trash climbing friends
who will say, you need a numbertwo or something.
Other times they just say ahook.
But I actually saw it in thebeta on like a Facebook forum.
People were asking each other,which hook did you use?
And someone's like, oh, I don'tknow.
It was one of the IBUs hooks.
And someone's like, well, was itthis one or this one?
They're like, uh, take both.
(24:11):
I don't know.
There was a spot where you couldchoose to repel off of a hook
and there's what's called asolution pocket in the wall of
the canyon, and that's like alittle bit of an alcove.
And in that little place thatgot bored out by wind and sand,
it leaves something like a flakeabout the size of a handhold,
and then you can put a hook onit, repel off the hook, and then
(24:32):
flick it out.
It's not a very long repel.
You don't really want metalcoming, you know, creaming
towards your face on a big, longrepel.
This one's like 30 feet, but wechose to use a sand trap there
instead.
Because I didn't love the ideaof metal flicking at my face.
Carma (24:48):
And with that too, there's always a chance that you
could blow the hole that you'rehooking out of
Sharlene (24:53):
Whatever you're hooking it onto.
Yeah,
Carma (24:55):
yeah.
Cuz it is just sandstone.
I mean, it.
There's always that chance andit had really good canyon
geometry for the sand trap atthis particular repel.
Like it is a great sand trap.
Repel.
Sharlene (25:08):
How many reps were there?
Were they all.
Repels where you had to buildsound traps.
Were there other types of repelsthere?
Carma (25:18):
For us, there was only one mandatory repel, and that
was that 30 foot repel that weused the sand trap for.
And then at the very end of thecanyon was another like 15
footer that
Katie (25:32):
This is like the crux for us.
Carma (25:34):
Oh my gosh, it was so dumb.
So like we got through all ofthese potholes, right?
With just the two of us.
And then you go through thisreally pretty like corkscrew
section that's just you know, alittle down climby, but nothing
major, like, no major obstacles.
After we get across this longkeeper anyway, and we get to the
like 15 foot repel and the hookhole for it had been blown.
(25:59):
So we couldn't hook it to repeldown it.
And so I was like, oh no, wewouldn't have wanted to anyway,
but it didn't look too bad.
So I was like, Hey, Katie, justlike handline me down it and
then I went to a partner assistKatie down it.
But it was super awkward.
There was no good place for meto stand down there.
And so I'm trying to stand onthis little shelf, kind of off
(26:22):
to the right and trying tosupport Katie, but she's coming
down and can't quite get herweight over to me.
Katie (26:28):
I am like, I'm sorry, but Gravity's gonna pull me
straight.
Karma's like, go right.
And I'm like, I can't.
Sharlene (26:33):
Yeah.
Her fall line was definitely notwhere you were.
Carma (26:35):
no, her fall line was not where I was, but I, there was
nothing for me to stand on inher fall line.
no And it would've been nice tohave a third person to like push
me into the wall as I helped herdown.
And anyway, we ended up gettingto a point where she just had to
bail and.
Katie (26:54):
it was with finesse.
So car was like, come thisdirection.
I'm like, I can't.
Um, the fall line is right here.
And so I basically loweredmyself and found like barely a
foothold and I was just like,push my hip in.
And that gave me the room tokind of spin my shoulders around
and get a good jump off of it.
(27:14):
So it worked out.
It was fun and ridiculousthough.
Carma (27:18):
It was like the sketchiest thing we did all day.
Was that,
Sharlene (27:24):
I think it's funny how many times in canyons it's
always that.
Aspect of, we were not expectingthat to be the hard part.
And that's always what pops upin these canyons.
Like, oh, we planned for thiskeeper and that keeper, and we
had all the beta on this.
And then you kind of relax andthen suddenly this new challenge
(27:45):
pops up and it's like, oh, wewere not planning for this.
Katie (27:49):
yeah.
and I'm looking around, I'mlike, can I fiddle something?
Can I use a fiddle stick onsomething?
The hooks have all blown like,Hmm, tricky.
Carma (27:59):
And it was only like 10, 15 feet.
This is such a seemingly smallthing to be like stumping us
right now after we've justgotten out of all of these
potholes.
Katie (28:12):
So do we need to get you some gear for pothole escapes?
Charlene
Sharlene (28:18):
I know.
Katie (28:20):
does.
Sharlene (28:20):
Would you recommend first purchase, maybe a sand
trap, and then go from there topurchase other,
Katie (28:26):
I'd say the potshots the most basic,
Sharlene (28:28):
Oh, okay.
Katie (28:29):
cuz most people can fill that with sand and truck it.
And that's prettystraightforward.
The sand trap.
I went with friends who knew howto use it and I practiced it a
lot before I did it on my own.
I've known how to do'em for overa year and this was the first
one that wasn't double checkedby somebody else
Sharlene (28:47):
Okay, so there's a little bit more technique
involved with the sand trapversus
Katie (28:50):
a lot.
Yeah.
Sand traps when you pull'em.
You need it to be heavy enoughthat you're not going to drop
anybody, but you need'em lightenough that you're not going to
core shot your rope when you'retrying to retrieve it.
And even in the milking of it,the way that it works, you could
still really easily, thefriction of the pole could core
(29:11):
shot your rope when you'reretrieving it, or you could get
it stuck and there's too muchweight and you just can't get it
down at all.
So lots of little nuanced thingswith that.
I would definitely go withpeople who are quite seasoned in
using it and watch them andlearn from them.
And we even went with a groupwhere somebody in front of us
was doing sand traps and pulling'em.
So I got to see the pole onquite a few.
Then set one up and pull thatone myself.
(29:33):
That was really helpful to get areally good idea of how they
work and what they look like andwhat they look like from the top
and the bottom before I set'emup for anybody else.
Sharlene (29:42):
Yeah, I would definitely not plan on going out
with a pot shot or a sand trapwithout having gone through a
Kenyon with someone who canteach me how to do it first and
do it like multiple, multipletimes.
Katie (29:55):
Yeah, and the pot shot's pretty intuitive.
You're basically throwing andseeing if it stays, so, and then
how much weight holds you withso much friction, you kind of
get a feel for that.
The only surprises I've had withthe pot shot were, okay, we're
gonna go back to that one spawhere I had a little bit of
trouble, and it's the trickypothole.
(30:16):
So basically you have to lookahead with potholes, one, two,
maybe three potholes to know ifyou can get out of'em, because
sometimes you need to do yourthrow from a couple of potholes
back to get out of the finalone.
So it's very much a lookingforward type of thing.
So on this one, I threw it andthen I went to ascend out and I
(30:40):
had a TI block on it, they'rereally good for pothole escapes
because they're really narrowcontours of a TI block.
Allow it to go up very cleanly,and if it gets up to the rim and
the lip of the pothole, it'sstill going up nicely and I'm
not trying to shove like anentire hand to sender over the
edge of the pothole.
(31:00):
Scarring it up a ton.
That low profile's really cool.
So I was trying to use my tiplock and I realized I needed an
attachment point.
I needed like a footholdattached to it, and so I let go
of the tip lock to grab mytether, and when I did it went
up and over the edge and it wasout of reach.
(31:22):
And the other side was justheavy enough to pull the rope up
and over the edge of that lipagain because I wasn't able to
hold onto it with just my handstrength anymore.
So I was like, dang it.
And I lost my ti lock up andover and I was like, it's fine.
We brought extra stuff.
I had another tib lock in a bag,and I had a basic in my bag, and
Karma had a basic in her bag.
So we had lots of ascendingoptions.
(31:44):
And so Karma hands me her basic,and I've been in this deep water
for a little bit now.
Messing with this and gettingeverything set up.
And I went to put the basic onand I have one neoprene glove
that has a thumb cut out of itso I can use the dexterity of
the thumb.
And I unscrewed the carabinerand put the basic in my hand
(32:04):
that had all glove and it wascold and the glove was thick and
I just, I babbled it and Idropped it to the bottom of the
pothole and
Carma (32:17):
Yeah.
Katie (32:18):
I look like karma.
And I'm just like, ah.
Cause I know it's like a hundreddollars worth of gear.
I just dropped down there.
Sharlene (32:24):
Yeah.
I, totally agree with yourdecision to have dived down and
grabbed that, by the way,
Katie (32:31):
Right.
But it was deep.
Uh, I took one kind ofexploratory dive and just to
make sure there's not any junkdown there to get caught on and
stuff.
And kind of if can I get a quickgrab on it?
And I went down there and I'mjust like making a grid with my
hand.
I'm just doing like three acrossby three tall.
I just like putting my hand downin the sand and I didn't find
(32:52):
it, but I kinda got close towhere I thought it might be, cuz
when I babbled it, I tried tocatch it with my legs and it
went between my legs.
So I knew it was somewhere rightin there ish.
And I made a mental note ofwhere ish was.
And so I come up after the firstquick dive and I come up with
like a handful of crap in myhands and throw it out of the
way so it's cleaner down there.
I clear a couple more sticks andthen I go for my real dive and
(33:16):
karma recorded it.
She had her GoPro going and I gounder, I go upside down.
I dive all the way down.
There's this little like archwaythat sometimes people can walk
through and I put my hand up inthe archway to hold myself under
cuz neoprene makes you wannafloat up.
And then I found two footholdsto like hold myself underwater
(33:36):
by my feet.
And in the video, you reallycan't even see my feet anymore.
I'm like gone.
Carma (33:41):
She's like doing a handstand under the water.
And like I see her feet, herboots come up and push on the
wall, and I can tell she's likepushing herself down under the
water to try to get this basic,and on the video it's like, I
know she's a diver, but like itfeels like she's under for a
(34:02):
long time, long enough for me tobe like, okay, uh, come back up.
Now.
I don't like how long you'vebeen down there.
Katie (34:12):
Oh man.
We counted it or watched thevideo and it was 10 seconds.
Sharlene (34:16):
Oh man.
That's a long 10 seconds though.
Carma (34:18):
Yeah, it felt like a long time.
It was when I realized like,okay, um, I don't wanna be alone
in this canyon.
Like, come back up, please.
Sharlene (34:27):
Oh, no.
Katie (34:28):
Oh, I came up with it.
I was really glad I had a hoodon my wetsuit because I couldn't
have done that dive.
It was so cold the night beforehad some snow like it was 70
degree weather for us, but thewater was cold and so I would
not have wanted to, I couldn'thave done that if my head was
that cold.
Sharlene (34:43):
Mm-hmm.
Katie (34:44):
can have a hood, you can get like a neoprine skull cap.
Those are really nice to have inpothole canyons.
But I also could have justwalked away from that and it
would've been fine.
A hundred bucks isn't a bigdeal,
Carma (34:54):
Yeah.
Sharlene (34:54):
I guess in the long run it's not a big deal, but
still there's that part of youthat's like my canyon booty.
I need to get this stuff back.
Katie (35:02):
Right.
But we got it back and that wasawesome.
Carma (35:05):
yeah.
And then, That TID lock ended upbeing really helpful in the end
for getting out that pothole.
Katie (35:13):
Yeah, so we would've had to throw another pack over.
But as the TI block came over,it wedged itself in the rope
groove.
There's a rope groove there fromwhere people have pulled each
other in and out a lot.
The ti block wedged like aclimbing nut and made it super
easy to get out.
So I don't know that, that'slike a normal trick of the
trade.
And then you climb on top ofthat pothole and I had to throw
(35:34):
again.
And this one you have to throwreally far to get it out.
And I was pretty tired at thispoint.
So, I actually ended up going,you know, I think I can climb
out of that other side.
So I had Karma came in where shecould give me a hand assist out.
And so then I proceeded throughand I found I could climb up
high enough to throw the potshot far enough to kind of hook
(35:55):
a shelf on the other side, likean overhang.
And I was like, yeah, let's dothat cuz I don't wanna stand up
here and throw 40 times and getexhausted cuz it's just, it was
like one foot out of.
Reach of where I wanted to throwit, and I probably could've
taken more sand out and thrownit that far, but
Carma (36:09):
Yeah,
Katie (36:10):
it's just kinda a trick of how much sand to throw.
Or do we need to throw two ofthese?
But it'd be really awesome ifeveryone in your group had a pot
shot
Sharlene (36:18):
yeah, in that case, yeah, how big is a pot shot?
Is it a pretty minimal piece of
Carma (36:23):
a small rope bag.
It's like a canvassy bag that's,I don't know, the size of like a
pull cord bag
Katie (36:31):
Yeah.
Like
Carma (36:31):
kind
Katie (36:31):
small travel pillow
Sharlene (36:32):
mm-hmm.
So, I mean, it wouldn't take uptoo
Katie (36:36):
No,
Sharlene (36:37):
you know,
Katie (36:38):
you can usually lay it in the bottom of most packs
Carma (36:40):
Yeah,
Katie (36:41):
and it's just two layers of canvas thick.
Sharlene (36:43):
so it's like if you're planning on all going and doing
potholes, you might as well allhave that extra piece of gear.
Katie (36:50):
And then that would be nice too, because if everybody
was waiting around for the nextpot shot to get thrown, you'd be
kind of precariously placedtrying to get lots of people up
on those saddles in betweenpotholes waiting for a bag to
come through.
So that might be a little harderwith a big group.
That was kind of an advantage totwo, is we could usually sit on
(37:11):
the same saddle together when wewanted to.
Carma (37:13):
yeah.
Something that was surprising tome because this was my first
pothole canyon really and I wasnervous about it at first.
Keeper potholes have alwaysintimidated me and you always
hear all of of the horrorstories about people having to
get rescued because they gothypothermic swimming for three
hours in a keeper pothole.
And so I was intimidated, butsomething that I learned, and
(37:37):
maybe it just really helpedbeing able to see it in person,
was the sequence of how to getin a pothole and get out of a
pothole, which I hadn't beenable to picture beforehand.
It would start with us standingon the lip of something and
chucking a potshot over, thepothole on the outside edge of
it.
And then,
Katie (37:57):
Yeah, that other side, the down
Carma (37:58):
Yeah, the down canyon side.
So we're taking the potshot,we're throwing it over the
pothole and it's landing in thenext pothole over the exit lip.
And then we would have topartner assessed into the
pothole.
So usually we would handline thefirst person in which a lot of
the times was Katie Handline.
Katie in, she swims over to theother side and tries to see if
(38:20):
she can get out.
And so when I got towards theend and we were tired, Katie
would get out on the other sideto make sure that we could get
out, but then she would have tocome back into the pothole to
help me get in.
This is where a third personwould come in handy, is there
would be less up and down forthe first person who's.
(38:42):
Escaping the pothole cuz theywouldn't have to get out and
then come back in to help thenext person down.
Because if you're the lastperson getting into the pothole,
there's no anchor up there foryou to use to, you know, get
down this, Yeah.
There's no handline, there'snothing.
So unless it's steep enough foryou to just slide into the
water, which most of the ones wedid in Woody weren't that deep.
(39:05):
And so you don't wanna sprain anankle getting into it, so you
need someone to assist you toget down.
And then we both go across andclimb out on the other end.
And so it was like that sequenceof you're looking ahead, you're
throwing first, you know, you'resending one person in, making
sure that they can get out.
And then in our case, becausethere was only two of us, we
(39:27):
then had to have that firstperson come back in, and assist
the last person into thepothole.
Katie (39:33):
And luckily, I didn't have to go back on every single
one for you and it was more theones at the end that kind of had
bigger drops and needed somebodyto help you get into it.
It was only a few at the end.
Sharlene (39:45):
Yeah, I could see not every pothole, but if a pothole
has a big drop, then yeah, youneed someone
Carma (39:49):
Yeah,
Sharlene (39:49):
that was gonna be one of my bigger questions was how
does sequencing, affecteverything?
Like what is your sequence?
And so it sounds like youdefinitely always want to have
one person, or well, in yourcase, one person because there
are two of you, but like yourwhole group is kind of staying
(40:10):
out until that first personthey're like the explorer that
goes and explores the area andthey prove that it's possible.
Once they prove it's possible,then everybody can move forward.
Katie (40:22):
yeah.
Sharlene (40:22):
That's kinda the sequence.
Katie (40:24):
you can see what's coming up next, and once you see it's
possible.
Yeah.
And that way you don't have abunch of people trapped in a
pothole with no means ofregress.
And that was nice.
Karma was always there for me.
Even if I just got tired or gotcold or anything, I could have
always ascended back up to whereshe was.
Carma (40:40):
yeah, and we could have switched places.
Katie (40:42):
And that was my plan on the one where I was like, I
don't know if I can climb outtathat, but I think I can, I can
always ascend back up.
Or Karma can take some throwsfrom right there cuz she's
fresher than me right now.
Cause I've been in this coldpothole for quite a while and
taken a few throws already.
Sharlene (40:56):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I like the idea of, yeah.
It doesn't have to be solely onone person.
If there's one person that'sjust pumped and needs to get
outta the water, yeah.
You can go handline back up.
You can switch places and havesomeone else, you know, paste
that out.
Carma (41:13):
yeah.
As long as you always keep,someone on that up Canyon
saddle, you know, they're theescape person.
Anyone who is in the pothole hasan opportunity to get out.
And if they just need a warmup,if they just need to take a
rest, or if you just all need tostrategize because you haven't
yet figured out how to get out,you always have that way to
(41:34):
rewind where everyone can be ina safe place, to strategize or
just to rest, or to swap out aperson or whatever.
Sharlene (41:44):
I like that.
The rewind.
We need the rewind buttonconstantly in place.
Katie (41:48):
control Z.
Sharlene (41:49):
cool.
Carma (41:50):
Cnrl.
Katie (41:52):
and you asked what items are good to have.
Another item that's really goodto have in potholes is some sort
of a pulley.
Doing a two to one to getsomeone outta a pothole is
awesome.
So like when I wanted to helpKarma, she would just put a
pulley or a micro traction,whichever one she wanted onto
her harness.
And what I would do is I wouldtie the rope to me and then I'd
(42:14):
send it down to her and give herthis little drop loop and then I
could pull on that other one attwo to one.
And I don't have to lift her outof every single pothole.
She can help climb, I can pulland I'm only pulling half of her
weight out every time.
So that is an amazing technique,that I learned from canyon
earing chicks.
Super fun, awesome way to do it.
And it really helps you to notbe exhausted by the end of the
(42:37):
canyon, cuz you didn't pullsomebody all the way out of
everything.
Sharlene (42:40):
So you're saying just by that pulley system, it's the
redirect of the rope that causesit to now you're not lifting all
the weight yourself.
That redirect, makes it soyou're lifting like, what is it,
half the weight now or
Katie (42:53):
it's half the weight.
Mm-hmm.
And you can picture that becauseI'm still holding all of her
weight on my harness as theanchor, but I'm not lifting all
of her weight.
there's like a figure eight tiedto my harness, and that static
line is going down to her.
Then it goes through the pulleythat's on karma and then comes
back up to me.
So when I'm pulling the otherrope is holding half of her
(43:15):
weight and the rope that I'mpulling through, the pulley only
has half of her weight on it.
It's sharing the load.
Those two ropes are sharing theload.
And you can just sit up thereand pull the whole group out one
by one.
And it wouldn't actually be alot of work.
Sharlene (43:29):
Wow, that's awesome.
Katie (43:31):
I think that's probably the very first technique that I
would learn in pothole escapes.
Carma (43:36):
Yeah, the micro traction was nice to use because you also
get some progress capture withthat as well.
Katie (43:42):
Yeah, made it really nice to not be able to drop her or
anything.
Sharlene (43:45):
And by progress capture you mean, you're pulling
the rope and if you were to likelet go of the rope, this device
you have is now grabbing thatrope so it doesn't all fall back
down.
Is that what you
Katie (43:58):
Exactly.
Sharlene (43:58):
capture?
Okay.
Katie (43:59):
So micro traction is a pulley with teeth.
Carma (44:02):
Yeah.
so like as Katie pulls me up, ifshe needed to take a rest
somewhere, you know, halfway upthe pull, we don't lose the
progress.
She doesn't have to lower me allthe way back down.
the micro traction can keep mewhere I'm at for round two of
pulling up
Sharlene (44:18):
That's awesome.
Katie (44:19):
That's a good toy.
Sharlene (44:20):
Oh, Well, I was just gonna say, I've learned a lot
from this and I'm super lessintimidated by the idea of going
into a canyon with potholes.
Now I'm like, oh, okay.
Maybe now I know I can just gowith some friends like you and,
it definitely seems lessintimidating after talking to
(44:42):
you about it, which is great.
Carma (44:44):
Yeah.
Katie (44:45):
It's a new flavor.
It's really fun.
I've been in canyons where I runinto like one or two or
something, to go in and just thewhole goal is to go play in the
potholes.
Made it really fun to get lotsof practice and lots of
confidence.
I liked having'em one after theother and really getting a lot
of variety.
Sharlene (45:02):
Yeah, that's nice.
Carma (45:03):
I was surprised.
I loved it.
I was so intimidated by it and Iended up loving it.
I'm like, puzzles are awesome.
It's all these puzzles that youget to solve one after the
other, after the other.
And really that's one of thethings that I've always loved
about canyoneering.
And so it was fun to step intolike this new type of puzzle to
(45:24):
figure out.
And.
It's just a lot of fun.
You get to splash around, youget to play in the dirt.
Like, like we have a video ofme, I'm filling a pot shot and
I'm like, da da da da.
Singing a little song about howI'm filling up the pot shot
because I'm just playing in asand Pitt.
And then next we're gonna jumpin a water hole and then you're
(45:46):
gonna climb out and play inanother sandpit.
And Katie made up a song aboutfishing for packs cuz like at
the end there's this long keeperthat we could not throw the pot
shot across.
Katie (45:59):
It's like 40 feet
Carma (46:01):
It's so far and there's not a good spot to throw from.
It's a funky angle that you'restanding on and it's just too
far to throw.
And so Katie ended up swimmingacross it with like a half full
pot shot and found a lip.
Katie (46:15):
with the pot
Carma (46:15):
just swimming with the pacha.
And then she found like a lipwhere she could stand up and
just get enough leverage to bumpit over.
Cuz it wasn't a big edge on theother side, but it was just far
Katie (46:26):
And there was good climbing holds.
Like char, you could climb onthose and stand on those and
you'd find them with your feet.
Yeah.
Carma (46:31):
right.
So she went exploring and founda place to do that.
And then we ended up just likechucking our packs into the
water and letting them bobaround.
And I tied them to the rope andKatie just like slowly like
pulled them in, like fishing forpacks, just fishing for packs
across this huge pothole.
(46:52):
Anyway, we were just playingaround, joking around.
It wasn't.
Nearly as scary or intimidatingas I thought it would be.
By the time we got to thatpoint, we had already conquered
I don't know, 10 potholesalready by that point.
I don't remember how many.
There's a lot.
Um,, yeah, I lost count too, butit, it ended up being so much
(47:15):
fun where I'm like, this is oneof my new favorite canyons.
I'm really excited to come backwith friends.
Katie (47:23):
it's really fun once you learn the tricks, like so these
kind of lips in the potholeswhen we throw'em over, usually
one pot shot holds my weight, orI might need two on this one.
And you start to feel even moreconfident about judging the
angles and the friction, andespecially when you have'em one
after another after another.
It's really fun.
I can't wait for you to go,
Sharlene (47:42):
Yeah.
I'm super excited.
I'm, I'm ready to go try now.
Katie (47:45):
All right, well, I hope everyone out there is excited to
go try some potholes too.
Grab some friends who know andthrow before you go, Thanks for
being with us, Charlene.
We appreciate you.
Sharlene (47:58):
Yeah, of course.
Thanks for asking me.
Carma (48:01):
so if you think Woody Canyon sounds like a lot of fun
now that we've talked aboutpotholes and how to escape from
them, and you wanna be able tolike see what that really looks
like.
I.
Katie and I took a GoPro downthe canyon with us, and we'll be
posting a video to our YouTubechannel so you can get an idea
of what it looks like forthrowing pot shots and setting
up a sand trap and just having alot of fun splashing around in
(48:25):
the potholes.
If you're totally hooked oncanyoneering like us, remember
to subscribe, so you don't missany episodes and you can also
reach out to us on Facebook.
with questions, comments, topicsyou wanna talk about, or just to
say, Hey, cuz We would love tohear from you.
(48:47):
Thanks for dropping in with usand we'll catch you on the wrap
side.
Hey everyone.
Thanks for joining us.
I'm Katie
Carma (00:10):
and I'm Carma and you're listening to, I'd rather be
canyoneering.
Katie (00:14):
We're best friends who totally geek out about canyon
rigging and beautifully slotcanyons.
Basically we'd always rather becanyoneering.
But when we can't, we spendevery spare minute, we have
talking about it.
Carma (00:26):
This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
Please seek professionalinstruction and practice
technical skills in a controlledenvironment before entering slot
canyons.
Your safety is entirely your ownresponsibility.
Katie (00:41):
Welcome to our canyon crew! For today's episode, we
are going to do our first evertrip report, and we thought that
it would be even more fun ifinstead of Karma and I just
talking about it, we might tellan actual person who was not
with us, but would've loved tobeen with us.
(01:01):
So today we've invited ourfriend Char Evans, who's on our
Canyon crew to come join us.
Say, hi, Shar.
Sharlene (01:08):
Hi.
Katie (01:10):
Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.
Sharlene (01:11):
so I'm Charlene uh, a little bit about me is, I love
doing lots of things in theoutdoors.
I'm a recreational therapist bytrade, so I like to keep that
up.
I live in like the Orum area andhave like three kids and a
husband, and it's fun familylife.
I also volunteer with a groupcalled Mountain Mamas.
(01:35):
And we do a lot more than justcanyoneering.
We do all kinds of adventures,but I'm one of the quote unquote
canyoneering guides.
It's all volunteer runs, sothat's why it's kind of a quote
unquote canyoneering guidething, I enjoy taking women on
adventures and, yeah so that'sjust, that's me.
Katie (01:58):
Awesome.
Thanks for being with us
Carma (02:00):
Yeah.
Sharlene (02:01):
Yep.
Thanks for having me.
Katie (02:02):
and for everyone else, all the listeners out there,
this'll be kind of like acampfire environment where we're
sitting around and tellingstories and asking questions and
this should be a fun episode.
Carma (02:13):
Katie and I just got back from an awesome trip in the
North Wash.
We had so much fun.
It ended up just being the twoof us because we were able to
get away in the middle of theweek, which is like a super hard
time for most people to getaway.
But, um,
Sharlene (02:28):
a miracle.
Carma (02:29):
yeah, it, it really was.
It was like the last weekpossible to do this before my
husband started his new job,which he starts tomorrow.
So we spent a couple days insouthern Utah, near the town of
Hanksville, and that whole areais called the North Wash.
Katie (02:47):
Yeah, and some of you might recognize this area as
where the Leprechaun Canyonsare, the Irish Canyons chale,
blarney, those are all in thesame area.
Carma (02:56):
And our favorite canyon of the trip was Woody Canyon.
Katie (03:01):
Yeah,
Sharlene (03:03):
So how many canyons did you run down there?
Katie (03:06):
four plus
Sharlene (03:08):
Nice.
Wow.
Katie (03:10):
It was that adventure that I'd talked about like a
year ago of doing the poisonsprings area in maybe a figure
eight.
So it was scenic and slide nineand constrict nine, and there's
this upli extravaganza that youcan use to link them and you go
up this unnamed canyon withentirely too much rope on your
(03:32):
back.
But we did those first as awarmup, waiting for the day when
it was not cold or havingpotential snow.
So at a 70 degree weather, wedecided to go get the potholes
that were full of water.
Carma (03:46):
yeah.
Sharlene (03:46):
Awesome.
Yeah, I wanna hear about it.
Carma (03:49):
Yeah, so, Woody Canyon is pothole after pothole after
pothole is how road trip Ryandescribes it.
that was really intimidating tome at first reading the
descriptions.
it also says you need like threepeople minimum for your group,
and it was just me and Katie.
So, um,
Katie (04:12):
we had some good intel.
Carma (04:13):
yeah.
Sharlene (04:14):
I was wondering about that, and so I don't know too
much about potholes.
but in my brain, I alwaysthought, don't you need more?
Don't you need like a team to,you know, partner assist if the
potholes are sketchy or, yeah.
Does that play a big factor inpotholes normally?
Katie (04:33):
Yeah, let me start out by telling people what a pothole
is, in case they don't know.
It's really common to find thesein the desert and maybe a little
less common in other places.
but A pothole is when the canyonwater comes down and a waterfall
carves out, kind of a bowl or atall dish.
Another word for that would belike a silo and.
(04:54):
Those become these kind of darkshafts that you can go down to.
They can be anything from just afoot deep down to, I mean, they
can be 20 feet deep, but theseparticular potholes were mostly
in the 15 foot area, like eightto 15, a lot of that size.
And then those can be dry orthey can be full of water or
(05:15):
they can be half full.
So when they're totally dry,then you can stack people on top
of each other to get out.
when they're full, you couldjust swim over them and you're
pretty easy.
If they're half full, that'swhen they get tricky because you
can't necessarily stack peopleon top of each other.
If three people would beunderwater, that doesn't work
(05:35):
out.
It's harder to stack rocks toget out, harder to stand on
bags, just get a little moretricky.
And so, yeah, definitelyrecommend having more people.
Kind of the more the merrier ina pothole fest.
for us, we actually knew somepeople who have been down this
canyon upwards of 50 times, andthey knew our skillsets really
well, and they had just beenthere the week before lots of
(05:59):
fresh beta on how all thepotholes were, what levels, and
they knew that we'd be able tostem over because they not only
are right around our sameheights, but they've done it
that many times and had been outwith us enough to say, yeah, the
one that might be tricky, youcould stem over.
So we had a lot of really goodintel to make that choice.
Sharlene (06:18):
Okay, so my first question actually is, is there a
difference?
I've heard the lingo like thisis a keeper pothole.
is a keeper pothole the same asa regular pothole?
Katie (06:28):
A keeper.
Pothole is one that usually youneed more than one person to
escape.
And a keeper is one that for anumber of reasons might become
really difficult to get out of,even with two people, maybe even
with three.
So it could be a keeper potholeif it's hard to climb on people
to get out.
Maybe it's really, reallyvertical, or maybe it's kind of
(06:50):
overhung which makes it hard toclimb up, or it could be a
keeper when it's half fullbecause then it's hard to throw
something up and over becauseit's hard to tread water and
throw a pack.
One of the ways to get out ofthe potholes is to fill a bag
with sand and throw it and itcould be a keeper if that throw
is really long and far and maybeyou physically can't throw 40
(07:10):
feet.
And so you might have to do somereally creative things to be
able to get out of it.
Sharlene (07:16):
Cool.
So yeah, like not all potholesare keepers, but keepers are
potholes kinda thing.
Okay.
Carma (07:22):
Yes, exactly.
Katie (07:22):
It's a pothole that is particularly difficult to
escape,
Sharlene (07:26):
Gotcha.
Katie (07:27):
and people have been known to spend hours in them.
Sharlene (07:29):
and that's what this Canyon specifically had, right?
It had a lot of those kinds ofpotholes.
Katie (07:35):
It had one or two that they call keepers
Carma (07:37):
Yeah.
Katie (07:38):
people will say actually that it's in keeper mode because
some of'em are really easy toescape when they're dry, and so
people will put conditions uponline.
It's like, oh yeah, this one'sin keeper mode, or this one's in
swim over easy mode.
Sharlene (07:51):
Right.
Carma (07:52):
it depends on the mode that it's in.
Katie (07:55):
There's one in Neon that we did and that one took a
pyramid of three people to getout and that's a potential
keeper.
If it were full, it wouldn't bethough, cause you just went
right over it.
Sharlene (08:04):
it seems like in general you're always gonna
wanna stay up to date on themost current beta of what's
going on in canyons.
But like, really specificallywith these potholes, it was
really great for you to havelocal beta,
Katie (08:17):
Yeah.
Sharlene (08:18):
very recent information because you really
wanna know what the water levelsof these as they are
consistently like changing.
Katie (08:25):
Yeah, and we got our be from like four days before
Sharlene (08:31):
with all the spring runoff, were they all pretty
full then?
Carma (08:34):
They weren't as full as we thought they would be.
They were kind of, we think likemid-level, like we didn't swim
across the top of any of them,and none of the significant ones
were dry either, so they weresomewhere in the middle.
I think it was in fun mode.
That's what I would say.
Woody was in fun mode because itwas problem solving mode, which
(08:59):
is also keeper mode, but therewasn't anything that got us
trapped for very long.
Like we were able to solve allof the problems that we came up
against.
Katie (09:11):
And most of the time you weren't treading water.
There was one swim at the end,but usually you were just a
little less than shoulders deep.
And so that made it so it waseasy for me to go over and
basically I'd climb into apothole and make sure we could
get out on the other side.
Then I'd come back over andpartner assist karma down into
what would be a significant downclimb.
(09:32):
And so it was nice that I wasn'ttrying to tread water and help
her climb down.
So I think that was a fun modetype of thing.
However, if it'd been a lotdeeper, she probably just
would've jumped right into thewater.
So it's kind of in between wherethat is and how the catches are.
Carma (09:46):
Yeah.
We had two full swimmers.
Yeah.
Cuz we had the, the one, uh,where Katie did some diving and
then, uh, we had the long onethat we had to swim.
Katie (09:57):
Oh yeah, that happened.
Sharlene (09:59):
By diving you mean like diving down into a pothole
or,
Carma (10:04):
Yeah.
Katie (10:05):
Karma's giving me crap because I dropped a basic into
the bottom of a pothole,
Carma (10:10):
She dropped.
She dropped my basic into thebottom
Sharlene (10:13):
Oh, no.
Katie (10:16):
so I had to retrieve it.
I mean, I didn't have to, Icould have bought a new one, uh,
but I chose to get into mydiving mode from my college
days.
Yeah.
And so luckily we had wetsuitson the entire time and they were
hooded wetsuits.
So that's plays a big part inwhether you're going to have fun
(10:36):
in one of these canyons, orwhether you're gonna come out
hypothermic because you might bein the pothole for a while.
And that's also something thatwe kind of gauged so we wouldn't
have karma get in at the sametime as me.
We'd see if I could escape itand once I was ready to help her
out, then she'd get in and comeover that way.
No one's just chilling in thecold water for no good reason.
Sharlene (10:55):
so My other question is, how do you determine what
millimeter of wet suit to wearto these canyons?
Katie (11:02):
Right?
That would be what you find outin your research, you know,
what's suggested and what otherpeople are running with.
It definitely depends on how wetthe canyon is, cuz if it's
totally dry.
Then you're not gonna eat muchof a wetsuit, but if you're
swimming the entire time, you'regonna want something thick and
maybe even five mil and five milon your chest and a hood.
(11:23):
I wore five mil and it had ajacket, so I had 10 on my chest
and I was comfy, cozy, andthat's worked for me in a lot of
canyons.
But you might be able to dropdown if you happen to own a
couple of varieties or you'regonna go rent something in
particular, then that's whereyou look up the bay and see
who's running it, in what mode.
And how big are they?
(11:43):
Because people who are on thesmaller side are getting colder
more easily, or some people arejust more susceptible to cold in
general.
Like I've got Ray nods, sothat'll catch me sometimes if I
wasn't careful.
So I pay attention to who'ssaying, yeah, if you're on the
colder side, you'll wanna dothis or add a vest to your
current wetsuit.
I look and pay a lot ofattention to those types of
things.
Sharlene (12:03):
Cool.
Carma (12:04):
Katie and I both have the same kind of suit, but honestly
I think I probably could haveditched my jacket for a lot of
this canyon until the very endwhen we had to swim, across the
lawn keeper.
I was glad I had the jacket on.
Katie (12:19):
And I couldn't have dove without a hood and a jacket.
So maybe consider some of thosethings that might be a rescue
scenario where you might be inthe water longer or.
You know, or if you're theperson, I mean, this would
really suck, but if you're theonly person in your group
wearing a wetsuit, theneveryone's gonna vote you to be
the person to stay in the waterand help people out all day
long.
And you're gonna maybe even getcolder if you're the only person
(12:41):
wearing a wetsuit.
Sharlene (12:43):
look At those worst case scenarios like, Hmm, if I
drop my basic in the water, Imight need to retrieve it.
Katie (12:49):
Yeah.
Hmm.
That might happen.
Sharlene (12:51):
Things might happen.
Carma (12:53):
Right, or like the whole thing with the keeper pothole is
that it could keep you in therefor a long time.
When you're in the shade inreally cold, canyon water, how
long can you maintain your bodytemperature in that situation?
So,
Katie (13:09):
And how bad is the wind?
The day before there were 20mile an hour winds and 40 mile
an hour gusts.
If you had had all thatevaporative cooling on your
body, you might need a jacket toput over the wetsuit if it was a
really windy day like that,
Sharlene (13:23):
do you ever have canyons where you do a dry suit?
Katie (13:27):
You could.
Yeah, you could.
they're popular in Zion.
They rent'em for Zion.
Seattle has dry suit canyons fora long time.
They're kind of looked down on,cuz you might get a leak and
people are saying, oh, thatblows everything and you've lost
all your heat.
But a lot of those leaks arepretty slow.
So it just kind of depends onwhat you're comfortable with.
(13:47):
If you're more afraid of rippingyour dry suit or if you're more
afraid of being cold.
But I've seen it work for a lotof people, so it's up to you.
Sharlene (13:55):
I was gonna ask you a question.
You know, it sounds like there'sa lot of terms I'm used to, like
partner assists with getting outof potholes.
And I know a little bit aboutwhat a potshot is, but yeah, if
you could explain what a potshotis and then maybe did you have
to like, use an ISIS hook?
Is that what that is?
Carma (14:15):
Oh,
Sharlene (14:16):
I abyss.
So yeah, I'm really unfamiliarwith the mechanical means of
getting out of potholes as wellas, the skillset of getting out
of potholes.
So if you could like, talk aboutsome of the gear.
Katie (14:27):
Yeah.
So some of the main ways ofgetting out of potholes is a
partner assist, so somebodyboosting you up, or maybe a
couple of people boosting you upto get you up there.
One of the really cool thingsabout it is you can have one
person standing up against thepothole and another person
pushing them into the potholewall to help keep it stabilized
and then another person canclimb up.
So that's cool.
(14:48):
Some other ways to get out areto throw some sort of a bag of
sand, like a pot shot is a namebrand.
And then I think the other oneis an escape bag.
I think that's the on rope one.
And those you fill'em up withsand and then cinch'em shut.
And then they have two handlesthat you tie your rope to, so
you chuck that rope up past thepothole that you're gonna get
(15:09):
into so that it goes up and overthe lip of it.
And when it drops over the otherside, that gives it 90 degrees,
of friction going up and over.
And that helps it to stay down.
So you kind of.
Tend to send lighter people overfirst if you're in a big group
so that it holds, and then theycan help the other person
handline up or grab onto a cordthat they're holding or put down
(15:31):
a foot strap.
Or you might even bring two potshots.
Or two of those bags.
Or three of those bags so thatyou can throw over extra weight.
And that way any size personcould go over first, and that's
really helpful.
Carma (15:44):
Yeah, and it really depends on the canyon geometry
of the specific pothole thatyou're trying to escape from.
So you throw the potshot first,the bag of sand before you even
get into the pothole a lot ofthe times so that you're high up
and you have space to throw.
You're not like down in a holetrying to throw it out.
you try to throw it
Katie (16:05):
The basketball shot does not work.
Don't do that.
Carma (16:08):
especially if you're treading water.
Sharlene (16:10):
Right.
I was thinking if you can'ttouch the ground, if you don't
have that momentum, that wouldbe a big issue.
Katie (16:15):
Yeah, so throw before you go,
Carma (16:17):
Yeah, throw before you go.
That's a good tagline, Katie.
Um, you're gonna throw,whatever, you know, your pot
shots or your packs, whateveryou're using as your weight over
the lip of the pothole beforeyou even get into it.
And it just kind of depends onthe canyon geometry, how much
weight you need in, the pot shopbag, like how much sand, whether
(16:41):
it's dry or wet.
And then whether you're gettingover like a really big, lip, cuz
some of the edges of thesepotholes are just like a balance
beam width wide that you'restanding on.
Katie (16:53):
you're barely riding the pony.
Carma (16:54):
Yeah.
if it's one like that whereyou're gonna throw it over and
this bag of sand, the pot shotis gonna like sink way down into
the water.
So you have the weight of thatdown and then the rope going up
and over.
This saddle like that gives youa lot of friction.
And usually just one pot shotwas enough for one of us to
climb out on.
It was enough weight and enoughfriction for us to climb that
(17:17):
rope,
Katie (17:18):
but it feels like a flat exit.
If you came into a pothole andthen it was just flat for a
while, There were very few ofthose in Woody.
Those are tricky because yourbag's just gonna come right back
at you, so you'd have to throwmore of them and maybe do more
climbing work in order to notwait it as soon.
And so that worked better onones that had more footholds,
(17:39):
and you kind of might wanna sendyour best climber if it's got a
pretty flat exit to it.
Carma (17:45):
right.
Sharlene (17:46):
That makes sense.
I'm just processing.
So if the angle doesn't go likeyou said, directly up and back
down, then that definitelythrows off the whole friction on
the rock so that makes sense.
Katie (17:59):
They actually used to teach firefighters that they
could repel off their oxygentanks if they put it up and over
a window sill because they had a90 degree bend on it, and that
90 degree bend added so muchfriction.
So yeah, when you think of those90 degree bends you can think
of, that's a lot of friction.
That's good.
But then think of your tabletopand how things slide right off
of it.
Sharlene (18:18):
Right.
Okay.
That makes a lot of sense.
Carma (18:21):
And Something that we learned by doing this canyon is
that when you're choosing yourrope length for a pothole
canyon, you need to consider notonly like the vertical length of
rope that you're gonna have touse, but also.
The horizontal distances thatyou're going to have to cover.
Katie (18:42):
Right?
Carma (18:43):
So when you're choosing your rope length in a pothole
canyon, you need to make sureyou have enough rope for your
longest repel and for yourlongest throw.
Sharlene (18:54):
Oh, okay.
Carma (18:55):
And you may need to.
Double or triple the length ofyour longest throw.
If you're going to be throwinglike two or three pot shots,
each potshot needs an end ofrope attached to it for climbing
up on.
A couple of like 60 footers or100 footers can be really handy.
in a pothole canyon.
(19:15):
And this is a spot where again,it really helped that we knew
people who knew this canyonreally well and gave us.
Very specific beta because whenwe were reading the Road Trip
Ryan description, we got reallyconfused cuz it said the longest
repel was like 33 feet.
(19:37):
And so we're thinking, allright, so minimum we need, you
know a 70 foot rope and then atthe top of the beta, it said for
the rope length that you shouldbring it said you needed a
hundred foot rope.
And the math just didn't add up.
Katie (19:55):
Yeah
Carma (19:56):
we're like, that's more rope than you need to do that
long repel.
So why is he saying that we needthis a hundred foot rope?
When our only repel is 33 feetlong, and when we were in the
canyon and we had that reallylong throw at the end, we
realized, Oh, when you're doinga pothole Canyon, pay attention
(20:19):
to the rope length if they haveone that they recommend you to
bring, because it's not justabout vertical feet it's also
about horizontally, like how farare you gonna have to throw,
what is your biggest pothole?
Katie (20:32):
Yeah
Carma (20:32):
then also how many pot shots or packs are you gonna be
throwing, because you need ropeattached to each one.
So that you can climb out on'em.
Sharlene (20:41):
Right.
Carma (20:42):
And honestly, two in this canyon with the potholes being
one right after another, rightafter another.
We did, take the pot shot andactually had the rope stretched
across more than one pothole,you know?
So that's the thing too.
It's not just how long is theone longest pothole, but how
long is like the sequence thatyou're gonna need to keep your
(21:04):
rope going through to, you know,get everybody across, the
obstacles.
Katie (21:09):
Right?
Sharlene (21:09):
and did you need to, in this canyon, use any hooks or
other hardware or things likethat?
I.
Carma (21:17):
we didn't have to use.
Any hooks to hook out of apothole in this particular
canyon.
So that's another way to escapea pothole is to use like IBUs
hooks or what are the grapplinghook ones called Katie the,
Talents.
Yeah.
So we didn't have to like useany of those on the rock to get
(21:40):
up and out of a pothole in thisparticular canyon.
But that is a common strategy,like I believe, uh, Emily, you
have to do that, right?
You have to hook out a potholes.
Katie (21:51):
Yeah.
So Emily has a lot of hookingand.
It's not just the hook that getsyou outta there.
The hook is attached to a ladderan H V A, and you basically, use
two of'em to go up the wall oryou can hook one and then maybe
get really high up the ladderand get out that way.
But sometimes you need two, onefor each of your Feet.
So you can move up, put anotherhook in, move up, put another
(22:13):
hook in, and it becomes a lotlike aid climbing.
It is basically, and yeah,that's another way we didn't
need to do that,
Carma (22:21):
No.
Katie (22:22):
but it's nice to have those as a oh crap exit.
It was cleaner to do this onewith pot shots and you didn't
leave a bunch of scarringbehind.
So it's nice when you can do itwith partner assists and not
hooks so that you don't scar therock behind you.
Sharlene (22:35):
Right.
It would make sense to not havethat be your immediate go-to
since we're trying to do LenaTrace and stuff.
Katie (22:41):
Exactly trying to do leave no trace.
That's like, okay, we'll trythat last, it's in my back
pocket.
We brought them and I broughtlike five of them, so I'd have
different sizes, but yeah,that's more of the last resort.
Sharlene (22:52):
So I just realized you said different sizes.
So I mean, in that respect, it'skind of.
Similar to like trad climbing,how they have different sizes
for different, like cracks andstuff.
Okay.
So that's kind of what you'relooking at with like hooks and
Katie (23:06):
Yeah.
The Talon has three on it andit's really cool cuz it goes in,
it looks like a grappling hook.
It has three sides to it.
And so you can pick the widthand depth and angle a little bit
on'em, and that's cool.
And then the two feet come inand help keep that pressure on
the wall nicely.
So the talons are really cool.
The other ones are also verycool.
(23:27):
But they have more of a depth tothem.
Sharlene (23:29):
How do you know what size of like hooks or, did you
say cloths is that they are
Katie (23:37):
It was a talon.
It was one of the hooks.
Yeah, it It's one of the hooksthough.
Hooks is the big word.
So yeah,
Sharlene (23:42):
Okay.
I guess that just depends on theresearch that you do.
Will they typically say, Hey,you need this size of hook, or,
Katie (23:50):
sometimes.
Sometimes they're as good aslike our trash climbing friends
who will say, you need a numbertwo or something.
Other times they just say ahook.
But I actually saw it in thebeta on like a Facebook forum.
People were asking each other,which hook did you use?
And someone's like, oh, I don'tknow.
It was one of the IBUs hooks.
And someone's like, well, was itthis one or this one?
They're like, uh, take both.
(24:11):
I don't know.
There was a spot where you couldchoose to repel off of a hook
and there's what's called asolution pocket in the wall of
the canyon, and that's like alittle bit of an alcove.
And in that little place thatgot bored out by wind and sand,
it leaves something like a flakeabout the size of a handhold,
and then you can put a hook onit, repel off the hook, and then
(24:32):
flick it out.
It's not a very long repel.
You don't really want metalcoming, you know, creaming
towards your face on a big, longrepel.
This one's like 30 feet, but wechose to use a sand trap there
instead.
Because I didn't love the ideaof metal flicking at my face.
Carma (24:48):
And with that too, there's always a chance that you
could blow the hole that you'rehooking out of
Sharlene (24:53):
Whatever you're hooking it onto.
Yeah,
Carma (24:55):
yeah.
Cuz it is just sandstone.
I mean, it.
There's always that chance andit had really good canyon
geometry for the sand trap atthis particular repel.
Like it is a great sand trap.
Repel.
Sharlene (25:08):
How many reps were there?
Were they all.
Repels where you had to buildsound traps.
Were there other types of repelsthere?
Carma (25:18):
For us, there was only one mandatory repel, and that
was that 30 foot repel that weused the sand trap for.
And then at the very end of thecanyon was another like 15
footer that
Katie (25:32):
This is like the crux for us.
Carma (25:34):
Oh my gosh, it was so dumb.
So like we got through all ofthese potholes, right?
With just the two of us.
And then you go through thisreally pretty like corkscrew
section that's just you know, alittle down climby, but nothing
major, like, no major obstacles.
After we get across this longkeeper anyway, and we get to the
like 15 foot repel and the hookhole for it had been blown.
(25:59):
So we couldn't hook it to repeldown it.
And so I was like, oh no, wewouldn't have wanted to anyway,
but it didn't look too bad.
So I was like, Hey, Katie, justlike handline me down it and
then I went to a partner assistKatie down it.
But it was super awkward.
There was no good place for meto stand down there.
And so I'm trying to stand onthis little shelf, kind of off
(26:22):
to the right and trying tosupport Katie, but she's coming
down and can't quite get herweight over to me.
Katie (26:28):
I am like, I'm sorry, but Gravity's gonna pull me
straight.
Karma's like, go right.
And I'm like, I can't.
Sharlene (26:33):
Yeah.
Her fall line was definitely notwhere you were.
Carma (26:35):
no, her fall line was not where I was, but I, there was
nothing for me to stand on inher fall line.
no And it would've been nice tohave a third person to like push
me into the wall as I helped herdown.
And anyway, we ended up gettingto a point where she just had to
bail and.
Katie (26:54):
it was with finesse.
So car was like, come thisdirection.
I'm like, I can't.
Um, the fall line is right here.
And so I basically loweredmyself and found like barely a
foothold and I was just like,push my hip in.
And that gave me the room tokind of spin my shoulders around
and get a good jump off of it.
(27:14):
So it worked out.
It was fun and ridiculousthough.
Carma (27:18):
It was like the sketchiest thing we did all day.
Was that,
Sharlene (27:24):
I think it's funny how many times in canyons it's
always that.
Aspect of, we were not expectingthat to be the hard part.
And that's always what pops upin these canyons.
Like, oh, we planned for thiskeeper and that keeper, and we
had all the beta on this.
And then you kind of relax andthen suddenly this new challenge
(27:45):
pops up and it's like, oh, wewere not planning for this.
Katie (27:49):
yeah.
and I'm looking around, I'mlike, can I fiddle something?
Can I use a fiddle stick onsomething?
The hooks have all blown like,Hmm, tricky.
Carma (27:59):
And it was only like 10, 15 feet.
This is such a seemingly smallthing to be like stumping us
right now after we've justgotten out of all of these
potholes.
Katie (28:12):
So do we need to get you some gear for pothole escapes?
Charlene
Sharlene (28:18):
I know.
Katie (28:20):
does.
Sharlene (28:20):
Would you recommend first purchase, maybe a sand
trap, and then go from there topurchase other,
Katie (28:26):
I'd say the potshots the most basic,
Sharlene (28:28):
Oh, okay.
Katie (28:29):
cuz most people can fill that with sand and truck it.
And that's prettystraightforward.
The sand trap.
I went with friends who knew howto use it and I practiced it a
lot before I did it on my own.
I've known how to do'em for overa year and this was the first
one that wasn't double checkedby somebody else
Sharlene (28:47):
Okay, so there's a little bit more technique
involved with the sand trapversus
Katie (28:50):
a lot.
Yeah.
Sand traps when you pull'em.
You need it to be heavy enoughthat you're not going to drop
anybody, but you need'em lightenough that you're not going to
core shot your rope when you'retrying to retrieve it.
And even in the milking of it,the way that it works, you could
still really easily, thefriction of the pole could core
(29:11):
shot your rope when you'reretrieving it, or you could get
it stuck and there's too muchweight and you just can't get it
down at all.
So lots of little nuanced thingswith that.
I would definitely go withpeople who are quite seasoned in
using it and watch them andlearn from them.
And we even went with a groupwhere somebody in front of us
was doing sand traps and pulling'em.
So I got to see the pole onquite a few.
Then set one up and pull thatone myself.
(29:33):
That was really helpful to get areally good idea of how they
work and what they look like andwhat they look like from the top
and the bottom before I set'emup for anybody else.
Sharlene (29:42):
Yeah, I would definitely not plan on going out
with a pot shot or a sand trapwithout having gone through a
Kenyon with someone who canteach me how to do it first and
do it like multiple, multipletimes.
Katie (29:55):
Yeah, and the pot shot's pretty intuitive.
You're basically throwing andseeing if it stays, so, and then
how much weight holds you withso much friction, you kind of
get a feel for that.
The only surprises I've had withthe pot shot were, okay, we're
gonna go back to that one spawhere I had a little bit of
trouble, and it's the trickypothole.
(30:16):
So basically you have to lookahead with potholes, one, two,
maybe three potholes to know ifyou can get out of'em, because
sometimes you need to do yourthrow from a couple of potholes
back to get out of the finalone.
So it's very much a lookingforward type of thing.
So on this one, I threw it andthen I went to ascend out and I
(30:40):
had a TI block on it, they'rereally good for pothole escapes
because they're really narrowcontours of a TI block.
Allow it to go up very cleanly,and if it gets up to the rim and
the lip of the pothole, it'sstill going up nicely and I'm
not trying to shove like anentire hand to sender over the
edge of the pothole.
(31:00):
Scarring it up a ton.
That low profile's really cool.
So I was trying to use my tiplock and I realized I needed an
attachment point.
I needed like a footholdattached to it, and so I let go
of the tip lock to grab mytether, and when I did it went
up and over the edge and it wasout of reach.
(31:22):
And the other side was justheavy enough to pull the rope up
and over the edge of that lipagain because I wasn't able to
hold onto it with just my handstrength anymore.
So I was like, dang it.
And I lost my ti lock up andover and I was like, it's fine.
We brought extra stuff.
I had another tib lock in a bag,and I had a basic in my bag, and
Karma had a basic in her bag.
So we had lots of ascendingoptions.
(31:44):
And so Karma hands me her basic,and I've been in this deep water
for a little bit now.
Messing with this and gettingeverything set up.
And I went to put the basic onand I have one neoprene glove
that has a thumb cut out of itso I can use the dexterity of
the thumb.
And I unscrewed the carabinerand put the basic in my hand
(32:04):
that had all glove and it wascold and the glove was thick and
I just, I babbled it and Idropped it to the bottom of the
pothole and
Carma (32:17):
Yeah.
Katie (32:18):
I look like karma.
And I'm just like, ah.
Cause I know it's like a hundreddollars worth of gear.
I just dropped down there.
Sharlene (32:24):
Yeah.
I, totally agree with yourdecision to have dived down and
grabbed that, by the way,
Katie (32:31):
Right.
But it was deep.
Uh, I took one kind ofexploratory dive and just to
make sure there's not any junkdown there to get caught on and
stuff.
And kind of if can I get a quickgrab on it?
And I went down there and I'mjust like making a grid with my
hand.
I'm just doing like three acrossby three tall.
I just like putting my hand downin the sand and I didn't find
(32:52):
it, but I kinda got close towhere I thought it might be, cuz
when I babbled it, I tried tocatch it with my legs and it
went between my legs.
So I knew it was somewhere rightin there ish.
And I made a mental note ofwhere ish was.
And so I come up after the firstquick dive and I come up with
like a handful of crap in myhands and throw it out of the
way so it's cleaner down there.
I clear a couple more sticks andthen I go for my real dive and
(33:16):
karma recorded it.
She had her GoPro going and I gounder, I go upside down.
I dive all the way down.
There's this little like archwaythat sometimes people can walk
through and I put my hand up inthe archway to hold myself under
cuz neoprene makes you wannafloat up.
And then I found two footholdsto like hold myself underwater
(33:36):
by my feet.
And in the video, you reallycan't even see my feet anymore.
I'm like gone.
Carma (33:41):
She's like doing a handstand under the water.
And like I see her feet, herboots come up and push on the
wall, and I can tell she's likepushing herself down under the
water to try to get this basic,and on the video it's like, I
know she's a diver, but like itfeels like she's under for a
(34:02):
long time, long enough for me tobe like, okay, uh, come back up.
Now.
I don't like how long you'vebeen down there.
Katie (34:12):
Oh man.
We counted it or watched thevideo and it was 10 seconds.
Sharlene (34:16):
Oh man.
That's a long 10 seconds though.
Carma (34:18):
Yeah, it felt like a long time.
It was when I realized like,okay, um, I don't wanna be alone
in this canyon.
Like, come back up, please.
Sharlene (34:27):
Oh, no.
Katie (34:28):
Oh, I came up with it.
I was really glad I had a hoodon my wetsuit because I couldn't
have done that dive.
It was so cold the night beforehad some snow like it was 70
degree weather for us, but thewater was cold and so I would
not have wanted to, I couldn'thave done that if my head was
that cold.
Sharlene (34:43):
Mm-hmm.
Katie (34:44):
can have a hood, you can get like a neoprine skull cap.
Those are really nice to have inpothole canyons.
But I also could have justwalked away from that and it
would've been fine.
A hundred bucks isn't a bigdeal,
Carma (34:54):
Yeah.
Sharlene (34:54):
I guess in the long run it's not a big deal, but
still there's that part of youthat's like my canyon booty.
I need to get this stuff back.
Katie (35:02):
Right.
But we got it back and that wasawesome.
Carma (35:05):
yeah.
And then, That TID lock ended upbeing really helpful in the end
for getting out that pothole.
Katie (35:13):
Yeah, so we would've had to throw another pack over.
But as the TI block came over,it wedged itself in the rope
groove.
There's a rope groove there fromwhere people have pulled each
other in and out a lot.
The ti block wedged like aclimbing nut and made it super
easy to get out.
So I don't know that, that'slike a normal trick of the
trade.
And then you climb on top ofthat pothole and I had to throw
(35:34):
again.
And this one you have to throwreally far to get it out.
And I was pretty tired at thispoint.
So, I actually ended up going,you know, I think I can climb
out of that other side.
So I had Karma came in where shecould give me a hand assist out.
And so then I proceeded throughand I found I could climb up
high enough to throw the potshot far enough to kind of hook
(35:55):
a shelf on the other side, likean overhang.
And I was like, yeah, let's dothat cuz I don't wanna stand up
here and throw 40 times and getexhausted cuz it's just, it was
like one foot out of.
Reach of where I wanted to throwit, and I probably could've
taken more sand out and thrownit that far, but
Carma (36:09):
Yeah,
Katie (36:10):
it's just kinda a trick of how much sand to throw.
Or do we need to throw two ofthese?
But it'd be really awesome ifeveryone in your group had a pot
shot
Sharlene (36:18):
yeah, in that case, yeah, how big is a pot shot?
Is it a pretty minimal piece of
Carma (36:23):
a small rope bag.
It's like a canvassy bag that's,I don't know, the size of like a
pull cord bag
Katie (36:31):
Yeah.
Like
Carma (36:31):
kind
Katie (36:31):
small travel pillow
Sharlene (36:32):
mm-hmm.
So, I mean, it wouldn't take uptoo
Katie (36:36):
No,
Sharlene (36:37):
you know,
Katie (36:38):
you can usually lay it in the bottom of most packs
Carma (36:40):
Yeah,
Katie (36:41):
and it's just two layers of canvas thick.
Sharlene (36:43):
so it's like if you're planning on all going and doing
potholes, you might as well allhave that extra piece of gear.
Katie (36:50):
And then that would be nice too, because if everybody
was waiting around for the nextpot shot to get thrown, you'd be
kind of precariously placedtrying to get lots of people up
on those saddles in betweenpotholes waiting for a bag to
come through.
So that might be a little harderwith a big group.
That was kind of an advantage totwo, is we could usually sit on
(37:11):
the same saddle together when wewanted to.
Carma (37:13):
yeah.
Something that was surprising tome because this was my first
pothole canyon really and I wasnervous about it at first.
Keeper potholes have alwaysintimidated me and you always
hear all of of the horrorstories about people having to
get rescued because they gothypothermic swimming for three
hours in a keeper pothole.
And so I was intimidated, butsomething that I learned, and
(37:37):
maybe it just really helpedbeing able to see it in person,
was the sequence of how to getin a pothole and get out of a
pothole, which I hadn't beenable to picture beforehand.
It would start with us standingon the lip of something and
chucking a potshot over, thepothole on the outside edge of
it.
And then,
Katie (37:57):
Yeah, that other side, the down
Carma (37:58):
Yeah, the down canyon side.
So we're taking the potshot,we're throwing it over the
pothole and it's landing in thenext pothole over the exit lip.
And then we would have topartner assessed into the
pothole.
So usually we would handline thefirst person in which a lot of
the times was Katie Handline.
Katie in, she swims over to theother side and tries to see if
(38:20):
she can get out.
And so when I got towards theend and we were tired, Katie
would get out on the other sideto make sure that we could get
out, but then she would have tocome back into the pothole to
help me get in.
This is where a third personwould come in handy, is there
would be less up and down forthe first person who's.
(38:42):
Escaping the pothole cuz theywouldn't have to get out and
then come back in to help thenext person down.
Because if you're the lastperson getting into the pothole,
there's no anchor up there foryou to use to, you know, get
down this, Yeah.
There's no handline, there'snothing.
So unless it's steep enough foryou to just slide into the
water, which most of the ones wedid in Woody weren't that deep.
(39:05):
And so you don't wanna sprain anankle getting into it, so you
need someone to assist you toget down.
And then we both go across andclimb out on the other end.
And so it was like that sequenceof you're looking ahead, you're
throwing first, you know, you'resending one person in, making
sure that they can get out.
And then in our case, becausethere was only two of us, we
(39:27):
then had to have that firstperson come back in, and assist
the last person into thepothole.
Katie (39:33):
And luckily, I didn't have to go back on every single
one for you and it was more theones at the end that kind of had
bigger drops and needed somebodyto help you get into it.
It was only a few at the end.
Sharlene (39:45):
Yeah, I could see not every pothole, but if a pothole
has a big drop, then yeah, youneed someone
Carma (39:49):
Yeah,
Sharlene (39:49):
that was gonna be one of my bigger questions was how
does sequencing, affecteverything?
Like what is your sequence?
And so it sounds like youdefinitely always want to have
one person, or well, in yourcase, one person because there
are two of you, but like yourwhole group is kind of staying
(40:10):
out until that first personthey're like the explorer that
goes and explores the area andthey prove that it's possible.
Once they prove it's possible,then everybody can move forward.
Katie (40:22):
yeah.
Sharlene (40:22):
That's kinda the sequence.
Katie (40:24):
you can see what's coming up next, and once you see it's
possible.
Yeah.
And that way you don't have abunch of people trapped in a
pothole with no means ofregress.
And that was nice.
Karma was always there for me.
Even if I just got tired or gotcold or anything, I could have
always ascended back up to whereshe was.
Carma (40:40):
yeah, and we could have switched places.
Katie (40:42):
And that was my plan on the one where I was like, I
don't know if I can climb outtathat, but I think I can, I can
always ascend back up.
Or Karma can take some throwsfrom right there cuz she's
fresher than me right now.
Cause I've been in this coldpothole for quite a while and
taken a few throws already.
Sharlene (40:56):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I like the idea of, yeah.
It doesn't have to be solely onone person.
If there's one person that'sjust pumped and needs to get
outta the water, yeah.
You can go handline back up.
You can switch places and havesomeone else, you know, paste
that out.
Carma (41:13):
yeah.
As long as you always keep,someone on that up Canyon
saddle, you know, they're theescape person.
Anyone who is in the pothole hasan opportunity to get out.
And if they just need a warmup,if they just need to take a
rest, or if you just all need tostrategize because you haven't
yet figured out how to get out,you always have that way to
(41:34):
rewind where everyone can be ina safe place, to strategize or
just to rest, or to swap out aperson or whatever.
Sharlene (41:44):
I like that.
The rewind.
We need the rewind buttonconstantly in place.
Katie (41:48):
control Z.
Sharlene (41:49):
cool.
Carma (41:50):
Cnrl.
Katie (41:52):
and you asked what items are good to have.
Another item that's really goodto have in potholes is some sort
of a pulley.
Doing a two to one to getsomeone outta a pothole is
awesome.
So like when I wanted to helpKarma, she would just put a
pulley or a micro traction,whichever one she wanted onto
her harness.
And what I would do is I wouldtie the rope to me and then I'd
(42:14):
send it down to her and give herthis little drop loop and then I
could pull on that other one attwo to one.
And I don't have to lift her outof every single pothole.
She can help climb, I can pulland I'm only pulling half of her
weight out every time.
So that is an amazing technique,that I learned from canyon
earing chicks.
Super fun, awesome way to do it.
And it really helps you to notbe exhausted by the end of the
(42:37):
canyon, cuz you didn't pullsomebody all the way out of
everything.
Sharlene (42:40):
So you're saying just by that pulley system, it's the
redirect of the rope that causesit to now you're not lifting all
the weight yourself.
That redirect, makes it soyou're lifting like, what is it,
half the weight now or
Katie (42:53):
it's half the weight.
Mm-hmm.
And you can picture that becauseI'm still holding all of her
weight on my harness as theanchor, but I'm not lifting all
of her weight.
there's like a figure eight tiedto my harness, and that static
line is going down to her.
Then it goes through the pulleythat's on karma and then comes
back up to me.
So when I'm pulling the otherrope is holding half of her
(43:15):
weight and the rope that I'mpulling through, the pulley only
has half of her weight on it.
It's sharing the load.
Those two ropes are sharing theload.
And you can just sit up thereand pull the whole group out one
by one.
And it wouldn't actually be alot of work.
Sharlene (43:29):
Wow, that's awesome.
Katie (43:31):
I think that's probably the very first technique that I
would learn in pothole escapes.
Carma (43:36):
Yeah, the micro traction was nice to use because you also
get some progress capture withthat as well.
Katie (43:42):
Yeah, made it really nice to not be able to drop her or
anything.
Sharlene (43:45):
And by progress capture you mean, you're pulling
the rope and if you were to likelet go of the rope, this device
you have is now grabbing thatrope so it doesn't all fall back
down.
Is that what you
Katie (43:58):
Exactly.
Sharlene (43:58):
capture?
Okay.
Katie (43:59):
So micro traction is a pulley with teeth.
Carma (44:02):
Yeah.
so like as Katie pulls me up, ifshe needed to take a rest
somewhere, you know, halfway upthe pull, we don't lose the
progress.
She doesn't have to lower me allthe way back down.
the micro traction can keep mewhere I'm at for round two of
pulling up
Sharlene (44:18):
That's awesome.
Katie (44:19):
That's a good toy.
Sharlene (44:20):
Oh, Well, I was just gonna say, I've learned a lot
from this and I'm super lessintimidated by the idea of going
into a canyon with potholes.
Now I'm like, oh, okay.
Maybe now I know I can just gowith some friends like you and,
it definitely seems lessintimidating after talking to
(44:42):
you about it, which is great.
Carma (44:44):
Yeah.
Katie (44:45):
It's a new flavor.
It's really fun.
I've been in canyons where I runinto like one or two or
something, to go in and just thewhole goal is to go play in the
potholes.
Made it really fun to get lotsof practice and lots of
confidence.
I liked having'em one after theother and really getting a lot
of variety.
Sharlene (45:02):
Yeah, that's nice.
Carma (45:03):
I was surprised.
I loved it.
I was so intimidated by it and Iended up loving it.
I'm like, puzzles are awesome.
It's all these puzzles that youget to solve one after the
other, after the other.
And really that's one of thethings that I've always loved
about canyoneering.
And so it was fun to step intolike this new type of puzzle to
(45:24):
figure out.
And.
It's just a lot of fun.
You get to splash around, youget to play in the dirt.
Like, like we have a video ofme, I'm filling a pot shot and
I'm like, da da da da.
Singing a little song about howI'm filling up the pot shot
because I'm just playing in asand Pitt.
And then next we're gonna jumpin a water hole and then you're
(45:46):
gonna climb out and play inanother sandpit.
And Katie made up a song aboutfishing for packs cuz like at
the end there's this long keeperthat we could not throw the pot
shot across.
Katie (45:59):
It's like 40 feet
Carma (46:01):
It's so far and there's not a good spot to throw from.
It's a funky angle that you'restanding on and it's just too
far to throw.
And so Katie ended up swimmingacross it with like a half full
pot shot and found a lip.
Katie (46:15):
with the pot
Carma (46:15):
just swimming with the pacha.
And then she found like a lipwhere she could stand up and
just get enough leverage to bumpit over.
Cuz it wasn't a big edge on theother side, but it was just far
Katie (46:26):
And there was good climbing holds.
Like char, you could climb onthose and stand on those and
you'd find them with your feet.
Yeah.
Carma (46:31):
right.
So she went exploring and founda place to do that.
And then we ended up just likechucking our packs into the
water and letting them bobaround.
And I tied them to the rope andKatie just like slowly like
pulled them in, like fishing forpacks, just fishing for packs
across this huge pothole.
(46:52):
Anyway, we were just playingaround, joking around.
It wasn't.
Nearly as scary or intimidatingas I thought it would be.
By the time we got to thatpoint, we had already conquered
I don't know, 10 potholesalready by that point.
I don't remember how many.
There's a lot.
Um,, yeah, I lost count too, butit, it ended up being so much
(47:15):
fun where I'm like, this is oneof my new favorite canyons.
I'm really excited to come backwith friends.
Katie (47:23):
it's really fun once you learn the tricks, like so these
kind of lips in the potholeswhen we throw'em over, usually
one pot shot holds my weight, orI might need two on this one.
And you start to feel even moreconfident about judging the
angles and the friction, andespecially when you have'em one
after another after another.
It's really fun.
I can't wait for you to go,
Sharlene (47:42):
Yeah.
I'm super excited.
I'm, I'm ready to go try now.
Katie (47:45):
All right, well, I hope everyone out there is excited to
go try some potholes too.
Grab some friends who know andthrow before you go, Thanks for
being with us, Charlene.
We appreciate you.
Sharlene (47:58):
Yeah, of course.
Thanks for asking me.
Carma (48:01):
so if you think Woody Canyon sounds like a lot of fun
now that we've talked aboutpotholes and how to escape from
them, and you wanna be able tolike see what that really looks
like.
I.
Katie and I took a GoPro downthe canyon with us, and we'll be
posting a video to our YouTubechannel so you can get an idea
of what it looks like forthrowing pot shots and setting
up a sand trap and just having alot of fun splashing around in
(48:25):
the potholes.
If you're totally hooked oncanyoneering like us, remember
to subscribe, so you don't missany episodes and you can also
reach out to us on Facebook.
with questions, comments, topicsyou wanna talk about, or just to
say, Hey, cuz We would love tohear from you.
(48:47):
Thanks for dropping in with usand we'll catch you on the wrap
side.
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