October 15, 2025 • 24 mins
What if the real test of leadership is your willingness to be disliked for making necessary change? That’s the provocation at the center of our conversation with Peter Cuneo—Navy veteran, seven-time corporate turnaround leader, and creator of the 28 essentials of “superhero leadership.” From Marvel’s boardroom to the bridge of a destroyer, Peter breaks down why courage is the foundation of every other leadership virtue and how the hardest leap is emotional: accepting that progress upsets people, even when it’s good for them.
We trace the origin story of the 28 essentials on an 11-hour flight to China, then move through patterns shared by great leaders: running at problems, embracing alien environments, and drawing strength from childhood adversity rather than shrinking from it. Peter shares why overparenting sabotages resilience in the next generation and offers concrete ways to build leadership early—travel that stretches comfort zones, real responsibility, honest feedback, and diverse, face-to-face experiences that teach instincts no textbook can. He also points to history as a living classroom, showing how archives and biographies compress centuries of decision-making into practical lessons you can apply today.
The through line is communication as an art. Peter explains how body language, tone, and consistency matter as much as the message, and why people prefer hard truth over the fog of uncertainty. You’ll come away with a sharper lens for your own leadership: how to act before certainty, speak plainly without spin, and make choices that trade popularity for progress. If you’re ready to strengthen your courage, steady your voice, and run toward hard problems, this conversation is your field guide. Subscribe, share with a friend who leads, and leave a review with the one essential you’ll practice this week.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Leader, you have uh developed 32 rules of superhero
hero leadership, we'll talkabout 28, 28, 28.
SPEAKER_01 (00:09):
I'm sorry, because I just wrote uh uh wrote a book
and it's will be out in FebruaryFebruary 3rd called Superhero
Leadership and um a little bitof play of my time at Marvel.
And um, you know, but you youbasically you um you know I'm
(00:30):
just I'm just thinking that youwell you're you're very good to
me.
I want to thank you.
You know, really very good tome.
So Peter, I might not charge afee for this, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
That's right.
That's right.
Thank you for that.
So look, look, look, you knowwhat?
It's about leadership is, youknow, we've talked a lot about
peering around the corners.
It's about working with goodpeople.
How about that one?
You like that one?
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Well, it's pretty generic, but sure.
SPEAKER_00 (00:59):
Okay.
That's a generic rule.
That's my rule.
Work with good people.
And so your new book, superheroleadership, lays about 28 ways
to lead with ready coverage,strength, and compassion.
That's what we're talking abouthere.
Peter, which one of those traitsdo you believe are most lacking
(01:26):
in today's leaders?
And how how do you see emergingleaders being able to cultivate
them?
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
Well, first of all, uh if I could just backtrack a
little bit.
So what what I do, um I'm stillin business, I'm chairman of
three companies, one inLuxembourg nanotechnology
company.
Um one is a uh, which I'm justgoing off of now, but uh a med
tech company on the Nasdaq, andone is an AI company in San
(01:57):
Francisco.
So that is in a sense one sideof my life.
The other side is that manyyears ago I became very
concerned about the lack ofleadership in the world.
And I like to say we have lessgood leadership in the world
than maybe ever in humanhistory.
I know, big statement.
But um, and that was years ago,and it's only worse now.
(02:23):
And uh so the theme of what uhwhat I do, which I'll run
through very quickly, is that,but it's also a very strong
sub-theme is young people arenot learning leadership.
And I'm defining young as agefive to age 30.
Why aren't they learningleadership?
We need them desperately for thefuture.
(02:44):
What can they do?
What can their parents do?
What can anybody do to encourageyoung people to learn
leadership?
And we, if we have time, we cantalk about why and some of the
things I recommend.
So, around that theme, I've beendoing speeches around the world
for over 20 years.
(03:04):
Uh, and actually, the now 28Essentials started that uh my
third year as CEO of MarvelEntertainment, and I was asked
to uh make a speech to a largegroup on leadership, and
shockingly now, when I thinkback, I really had thought very
little consciously about my ownleadership, my style, what I had
(03:24):
learned.
I had a lot of adventures.
I have the adventure of Jean, Iguess.
And um I had a I had a nonstopflight to China 11 hours before
the speech.
And I was nervous and got on theplane, what am I gonna say?
And I sort of went into a trancefor about nine hours writing,
(03:47):
going through my entire lifepractically.
What did I learn?
When did I learn it?
And that's when the most of the28 essentials, I might in 20
years I might have added threeor four, that's all.
And um, they are what I I what Ithink are instincts, habits,
(04:07):
attitudes.
They take various forms, and uh,and so on.
So that really started me off.
And then we have a podcast,superhero leadership with Peter
Cunningham.
We just finished the secondseason.
We're very happy with how that'sgoing.
We have the book coming outcalled Superhero Leadership in
right now, February 3rd.
(04:29):
It's written, so I think we'regonna make the date.
Um, I'm also working with acompany called Summer Discovery,
which runs summer programs atthe best universities in the
world for high ability highschool students.
I want to get to them, help themthink about leadership.
(04:50):
We're talking Oxford, Cambridge,five Ivy League schools, UCLA,
MIT, University of Madrid, andon and on.
And they uh students come from80 different countries, and um,
they have about 10,000 studentsin the summer.
So I'm working on a pilotprogram on leadership, which
will be out next summer.
(05:11):
And then uh working again withanother group uh called
Studio.com.
Some of you may be aware of it.
It's a little a bit likemasterclass, but really more for
a younger audience.
And uh they saw me give a talkand said, We need you to, we
don't have a we need a leader,we don't have a leader, you
know, we need a program.
(05:32):
So a lot going on on the on theuh the question of leadership
and so on.
And so um I'm um still, youknow, people still want to talk
about leadership, which makessense.
It's even if you don't aspire toleadership, it's a subject every
human being is interested in.
(05:53):
So um the toughest of the 28essentials, we call them
essentials for superheroleadership.
Um, and that is basically saysyou have to make the emotional
leap to understand that as aleader, and particularly when
(06:16):
I've done seven turnarounds, soit's particularly uh uh you know
difficult, challengingsituations.
But in any leadership position,business, non-business, public,
private, it doesn't matter whatyou're in, you have to be
comfortable emotionally.
That as a leader, you're gonnahave to make some change at some
(06:36):
point, and you're gonna makepeople unhappy.
And some of them will never seeyou any other way but a problem.
And that is very hard for mosthuman beings to do.
That is the mantle ofleadership.
It's the thing you really needto accept.
Yeah, you can make more money,yes, you there are some nice
(06:58):
things about being an effectiveleader, but in the end, you
can't be effective unless youare okay with, okay, I don't
want to abuse people, of coursenot.
But this change is going to beneeded, and unfortunately,
there's no way around it.
Because if we don't, we may haveeverybody else with out of a job
that hasn't lost it already.
(07:20):
So very, very tough.
I can't look at all of you anddetermine which of you can make
that leap, which can't.
Some can make the leap whenthey're 10, 20, 30, some need to
be 50.
Yeah, everyone is different.
But that is the key becauseleadership, the key word I
(07:40):
always associate with leadershipis courage.
If you ask me one word, what isit?
It's courage, courage to makechange.
Try not to make people unhappy,but accept that no matter what
you do, even positive changeupsets human beings because it's
change.
I'm not gonna be in that samecubicle anymore.
(08:02):
You're moving me to a corneroffice, I'm upset.
I want to stay in my cubicle.
I've had that happen as anexample.
So um it's it's it's not easyand there's a lot of stress
associated with it.
You have to accept that too.
Most human beings just don'twant to be leaders because they
don't want the responsibility ofhaving to deal with other
(08:26):
people.
We all fundamentally, most ofus, unless we're nuts, we all
want to be loved by everybody,right?
It's natural for human beings.
But if you're gonna be aneffective leader, it's
impossible.
And that is the you asked mewhat the biggest mistake was
that I think you know, leaderspoor certainly poor leaders
make, it's that.
(08:46):
They never make that leap.
They put off problems, theydon't want to deal.
Maybe it'll go away if I'mlucky.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
So it's isn't that human nature though?
Isn't it human nature to takethe path of least resistance?
So the courage, the courage totake that leap is what you're
talking about, right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
Sure, is if you do a study.
I'm on the board of the NationalArchives Foundation in
Washington.
The archives keeps all therecords of the United States
government from day one.
We have 22 billion documents.
The largest collection ofantique maps, the largest
collection of film, the largestcollection of photographs in the
(09:28):
world.
And being on the board, this I'min my 15th year, is you learn a
lot about leadership.
And if you go to my website,petercuneo.com, I do have a list
of 15 things that I recommendfor people to learn leadership.
And one of most of them are allabout face-to-face experiences
(09:48):
because I believe 90% oflearning leadership is your
personal experiences with adiversity of people,
professionally, personally,internationally, talking about
the UN.
All of that, you learn theinstincts of how to convince
people to go your way, but ittakes time.
(10:10):
So I just think that it's umit's a challenge, particularly
for young people, but I do havethat list which I recommend.
One of the things on the listis, which doesn't require
face-to-face, is study history.
And there's a lot of ways to dothat.
You can get a book, you can goonline, you can go to museums,
you can travel and go around theworld.
(10:34):
Whatever it takes.
There's a lot of the past isprologue.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
It's so so so incredible to hear, Peter,
because you are that leader.
Um, on your superhero leadershippodcast, which I encourage all
of you uh to listen to, uh,because it's Peter at his best,
uh, like today.
Um, you know, you'll hear Petertalking, you know, a range of
(11:01):
global leaders, CEOs and othersthat are just have been there,
have done that, or are doing it.
And I'd like you, I'd like toask you, Peter, for the global
audience, for the millions ofpeople that will see, watch,
hear this interview, um, whatare some of the threads that you
have found in these leaders?
(11:23):
Like what what what is that?
I know you said courage, andthat's important because without
courage, as they say, someonewiser than maybe we said, all of
the other virtues are notpossible.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
I think you're probably right on that.
Um again, if you study pastsuccessful leaders, you see a
number of things that in theirbehaviors that they all have.
And um one of them is they runat problems.
They do not shy away fromproblems, they actually run at
(12:02):
problems.
Another thing you see is thatthey are very comfortable being
thrown into or making a decisionto go into an alien environment.
Now, an alien in this case, I'mI'm I'm talking about different,
not necessarily bad, butdifferent.
Alien environments come up inyour life.
Sometimes it could be business.
(12:23):
And my first turnaround, my bosswalked into my office and said,
Peter, you're gonna take overthe international division
tomorrow.
You're gonna fly to London withme.
I was like, What?
And yeah, it's a big turnaround.
I had no idea, I knew anything,I had any skills in turnarounds.
I was thrown into an alienenvironment.
(12:45):
And I was depressed for sixmonths until we started getting
results, and I realized it wasall about leadership and so on.
So, or you you work in New York,guess what?
You just took a job in London.
Well, you're gonna go to analien environment.
It was your decision, not a badthing, but good leaders are very
(13:06):
good coping with alienenvironments.
And so, one of the things that Isee with our guests, and I will
say that we have, if you goonline, uh we we did um film uh
season two, so you can actuallysit there for 40 minutes and
watch two people talking to eachother.
I don't know who wants to dothat, but apparently it's very
(13:27):
popular.
And um season one was justaudio.
But our guests are some namesyou would know, but many don't
really know.
But when you hear what theyaccomplished, it's pretty
unbelievable.
It's unbelievable.
And that's the uh the ideabehind it.
But one of the things that Ialways ask is about their
(13:47):
childhood.
Tell me about your childhood.
What was it like?
I almost know what I'm gonnahear.
I mean, one guest said, I grewup in a trailer with five
brothers.
Another one said, um, you know,I basically my father had a lot
(14:08):
of physical problems.
I became a uh, I I deliverednewspapers when I was 10 years
old.
Um but I realized my first itwas first my first business
because I realized that if Iactually didn't just throw the
paper on the front step, but Iactually rang the bell and said,
Is there anything else I can dofor you?
(14:29):
People loved it.
Kind of 10 years old.
Incredible.
So what you what you see thoughwhen you hear these people talk
is they had very uniqueexperiences.
They were challenged by life inmany cases.
They were not overparented, theopposite in most cases.
(14:50):
We have a terrible problem withoverparenting.
This is one of the reasons youngpeople are not learning
leadership.
So, oh, you um oh you didn'tmake that elite soccer team?
Oh, it's the coach's fault.
I'm gonna call the coach andtell him off or her off.
Oh, you got a bad grade inschool?
Oh, it's the teacher's fault.
(15:10):
It's not your fault.
And kids never learn to cope.
A lot of kids today, I hearstories from C-suite people all
the time.
I almost can't believe my earssometimes on the problems with
young people.
First job, very well educated,and uh just amazing stories
about that.
(15:33):
They have no skin.
And they can't handle handle thesimplest setback because they
were never faced with a setbackgrowing up.
So um, you know, but I long,long-winded answer to your
question.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
Oh, that it's incredibly insightful, and I
think that it goes back tocourage, right?
And it and you develop thatcourage through adversity,
through experience, through allof these things that you know.
I don't think you can be taughtcourage, is what I'm trying to
say.
Can you?
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
I I don't know.
I I don't know.
You know, I think one of thethings you also see is most of
these leaders were encouraged totake risks, even at a very young
age.
Or they had experiences uh withthe family or friends where they
went into alien environments.
A five-year-old can learnleadership.
(16:26):
Now, I used to say that to theaudience, and all of you would
be going like this.
No way.
My five-year-old doesn't evenknow what leadership means.
And what I explain is this foryour next summer vacation, go to
Europe to a country that doesnot speak English.
(16:47):
Take your five-year-old, andhere's what happens.
Of course, the five-year-olddoesn't know anything about
leadership.
But the emotional reaction,assuming it went well, and
chances are it will go well, isyou know, we went to this place,
I forgot the name.
Um, I didn't understand anythinganyone said.
(17:10):
This is if you're an American,but I would apply this to
anybody going out of theirculture.
And uh the food was different,but I liked it.
Mom and dad, where are we goingnext year?
If you can't afford to go toEurope, okay, not everyone can,
go to Quebec.
If you can't afford to go toQuebec, you don't have to leave
(17:31):
the U.S., go to West Virginiaand let your kids see poverty.
That's another another importantum, I think, I think for all
young kids to know that there ispoverty in the world and what
that really means without havinga you know a terrible
experience.
Of course not.
It's not what I'm saying.
(17:53):
But these the parents, veryoften of these leaders, provided
those kinds of experiences justnaturally.
In my case, I often say I hadthe adventurer gene, and it's
really not uh it's not anythingorganic.
My parents were adventurers, andmy grandparents, three of whom
(18:13):
over four, were were um, youknow, immigrants, they were all
adventurers.
They couldn't sit at a desk.
My mother was an EMT for 30years.
The last 10, because shecouldn't do it physically, she
was a dispatcher for the EMTs.
She would come when I was inhigh school, she worked the 4-12
(18:35):
shift.
She would come to my house andput me in the back with her.
Now we're going way back.
This is before this wasunregulated, this is before
regulations, could never getaway with this.
And I would go on calls, and itwasn't that I did anything
because I wasn't qualified, butI saw my mother in action.
I grew up with a working womanwho had courage.
(18:58):
And I'm not going to get intosome of the graphic details of
what I happened to see because Iwas doing that.
My father was a lieutenant inthe New York City Fire
Department.
Canal on Allen Street here inManhattan was his firehouse.
Some of the worst fires in NewYork City, Chinatown.
And he uh he was, his men oftentold me he was one of the few
(19:23):
officers that actually ran inthe buildings to fight the fires
with them, as opposed tostanding out in the street and
directing.
My father was also in the U.S.
Navy as an officer in World WarII and Korea.
My grandparents uh immigratedfrom Italy, Sweden, and Scotland
(19:46):
via Nova Scotia and Canada.
They survived, they got throughthe depression, they were
middle-class families.
But they worked all jobs.
They got out there.
My grandfather and grandmothermet in a fancy apartment house
uh on Park Avenue, 903 ParkAvenue, which is 79th and Park.
(20:10):
And how'd they meet?
He was the handyman, and she wasrunning the elevator.
Because back then you actuallyhad to have someone in the
elevator to run it.
And that's how they met.
Incredible.
They were downstairs in a sense.
SPEAKER_00 (20:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:26):
Okay, but this is what I grew up with.
So it was um, I went in the Navyto Vietnam.
I'm uh I'm a Vietnam uh uh uhveteran of two tours, a guided
missile destroyer of the Navy.
I really went because myfather's service.
(20:47):
And I just thought it would be abig adventure, admittedly, I was
very naive when I think back.
But when I was when I reallystarted to learn leadership was
in the US Navy in combat.
And I was privileged to haveexperiences under some great
Navy officers and seniorenlisted men, Navy chiefs.
And I learned leadership just bybeing with them, asking them
(21:10):
questions, watching them inaction.
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
So Peter, you what a thank you for that journey
because it's so important tounderstand who you are.
And I think for our globalaudience to understand, you
know, your first of all, thankyou for your service to the
United States without a doubt.
Um I think it it's important tonote that.
(21:35):
Peter, you emphasize theimportance of being human and
being honest and accessible as aleader.
How do you balance that opennesswith the need, the courage, to
make such tough and perhapsunpopular decisions?
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
I actually think it comes down to communications.
And the art of community, it'san art form.
Communications is an art.
And a lot of people have, in inin in my world at least, um,
have never mastered the art orrealized how important it is.
So I'm looking at you threeladies right now, only because
(22:23):
you're in the front row.
50% of what I'm learning aboutyou right now is your body
language.
50%.
I haven't spoken to you yet, ofcourse.
So and if we were speaking, ofthe remaining 50%, 25% would be
(22:43):
what you say, the other 25%would be how you save it, say
it.
So I could probably tell if youreally liked me or not up here
if we have a conversation,regardless of what you say.
Um it's so communications, andif you're a leader, you have to
communicate honestly withpeople.
(23:03):
People know there are problems.
My experience with human beingsis they they feel better being
told the truth, even if it'snegative, than than being in an
atmosphere of total uncertainty.
It's human nature.
Okay, at least I know.
You know, I know what we'rethinking, I know what we're
(23:24):
trying to do.
And so regular communications toas many, I like to be face to
face as we are today, but ifyou're in a big organization,
that's not always possible.
But regular communications,consistent communications,
saying the same thing toeverybody.
How many, how many bad leadershave you met where what they
(23:45):
said was whoever talked to themfive minutes ago, that was their
story.
It could be different from theday before.
It happens.
Poor leadership, poorcommunication.
Uh Peter Cunio, thank you sovery much.
Thank you, George, very much.
Leader, you have uh developed 32 rules of superhero
hero leadership, we'll talkabout 28, 28, 28.
SPEAKER_01 (00:09):
I'm sorry, because I just wrote uh uh wrote a book
and it's will be out in FebruaryFebruary 3rd called Superhero
Leadership and um a little bitof play of my time at Marvel.
And um, you know, but you youbasically you um you know I'm
(00:30):
just I'm just thinking that youwell you're you're very good to
me.
I want to thank you.
You know, really very good tome.
So Peter, I might not charge afee for this, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (00:42):
That's right.
That's right.
Thank you for that.
So look, look, look, you knowwhat?
It's about leadership is, youknow, we've talked a lot about
peering around the corners.
It's about working with goodpeople.
How about that one?
You like that one?
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Well, it's pretty generic, but sure.
SPEAKER_00 (00:59):
Okay.
That's a generic rule.
That's my rule.
Work with good people.
And so your new book, superheroleadership, lays about 28 ways
to lead with ready coverage,strength, and compassion.
That's what we're talking abouthere.
Peter, which one of those traitsdo you believe are most lacking
(01:26):
in today's leaders?
And how how do you see emergingleaders being able to cultivate
them?
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
Well, first of all, uh if I could just backtrack a
little bit.
So what what I do, um I'm stillin business, I'm chairman of
three companies, one inLuxembourg nanotechnology
company.
Um one is a uh, which I'm justgoing off of now, but uh a med
tech company on the Nasdaq, andone is an AI company in San
(01:57):
Francisco.
So that is in a sense one sideof my life.
The other side is that manyyears ago I became very
concerned about the lack ofleadership in the world.
And I like to say we have lessgood leadership in the world
than maybe ever in humanhistory.
I know, big statement.
But um, and that was years ago,and it's only worse now.
(02:23):
And uh so the theme of what uhwhat I do, which I'll run
through very quickly, is that,but it's also a very strong
sub-theme is young people arenot learning leadership.
And I'm defining young as agefive to age 30.
Why aren't they learningleadership?
We need them desperately for thefuture.
(02:44):
What can they do?
What can their parents do?
What can anybody do to encourageyoung people to learn
leadership?
And we, if we have time, we cantalk about why and some of the
things I recommend.
So, around that theme, I've beendoing speeches around the world
for over 20 years.
(03:04):
Uh, and actually, the now 28Essentials started that uh my
third year as CEO of MarvelEntertainment, and I was asked
to uh make a speech to a largegroup on leadership, and
shockingly now, when I thinkback, I really had thought very
little consciously about my ownleadership, my style, what I had
(03:24):
learned.
I had a lot of adventures.
I have the adventure of Jean, Iguess.
And um I had a I had a nonstopflight to China 11 hours before
the speech.
And I was nervous and got on theplane, what am I gonna say?
And I sort of went into a trancefor about nine hours writing,
(03:47):
going through my entire lifepractically.
What did I learn?
When did I learn it?
And that's when the most of the28 essentials, I might in 20
years I might have added threeor four, that's all.
And um, they are what I I what Ithink are instincts, habits,
(04:07):
attitudes.
They take various forms, and uh,and so on.
So that really started me off.
And then we have a podcast,superhero leadership with Peter
Cunningham.
We just finished the secondseason.
We're very happy with how that'sgoing.
We have the book coming outcalled Superhero Leadership in
right now, February 3rd.
(04:29):
It's written, so I think we'regonna make the date.
Um, I'm also working with acompany called Summer Discovery,
which runs summer programs atthe best universities in the
world for high ability highschool students.
I want to get to them, help themthink about leadership.
(04:50):
We're talking Oxford, Cambridge,five Ivy League schools, UCLA,
MIT, University of Madrid, andon and on.
And they uh students come from80 different countries, and um,
they have about 10,000 studentsin the summer.
So I'm working on a pilotprogram on leadership, which
will be out next summer.
(05:11):
And then uh working again withanother group uh called
Studio.com.
Some of you may be aware of it.
It's a little a bit likemasterclass, but really more for
a younger audience.
And uh they saw me give a talkand said, We need you to, we
don't have a we need a leader,we don't have a leader, you
know, we need a program.
(05:32):
So a lot going on on the on theuh the question of leadership
and so on.
And so um I'm um still, youknow, people still want to talk
about leadership, which makessense.
It's even if you don't aspire toleadership, it's a subject every
human being is interested in.
(05:53):
So um the toughest of the 28essentials, we call them
essentials for superheroleadership.
Um, and that is basically saysyou have to make the emotional
leap to understand that as aleader, and particularly when
(06:16):
I've done seven turnarounds, soit's particularly uh uh you know
difficult, challengingsituations.
But in any leadership position,business, non-business, public,
private, it doesn't matter whatyou're in, you have to be
comfortable emotionally.
That as a leader, you're gonnahave to make some change at some
(06:36):
point, and you're gonna makepeople unhappy.
And some of them will never seeyou any other way but a problem.
And that is very hard for mosthuman beings to do.
That is the mantle ofleadership.
It's the thing you really needto accept.
Yeah, you can make more money,yes, you there are some nice
(06:58):
things about being an effectiveleader, but in the end, you
can't be effective unless youare okay with, okay, I don't
want to abuse people, of coursenot.
But this change is going to beneeded, and unfortunately,
there's no way around it.
Because if we don't, we may haveeverybody else with out of a job
that hasn't lost it already.
(07:20):
So very, very tough.
I can't look at all of you anddetermine which of you can make
that leap, which can't.
Some can make the leap whenthey're 10, 20, 30, some need to
be 50.
Yeah, everyone is different.
But that is the key becauseleadership, the key word I
(07:40):
always associate with leadershipis courage.
If you ask me one word, what isit?
It's courage, courage to makechange.
Try not to make people unhappy,but accept that no matter what
you do, even positive changeupsets human beings because it's
change.
I'm not gonna be in that samecubicle anymore.
(08:02):
You're moving me to a corneroffice, I'm upset.
I want to stay in my cubicle.
I've had that happen as anexample.
So um it's it's it's not easyand there's a lot of stress
associated with it.
You have to accept that too.
Most human beings just don'twant to be leaders because they
don't want the responsibility ofhaving to deal with other
(08:26):
people.
We all fundamentally, most ofus, unless we're nuts, we all
want to be loved by everybody,right?
It's natural for human beings.
But if you're gonna be aneffective leader, it's
impossible.
And that is the you asked mewhat the biggest mistake was
that I think you know, leaderspoor certainly poor leaders
make, it's that.
(08:46):
They never make that leap.
They put off problems, theydon't want to deal.
Maybe it'll go away if I'mlucky.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
So it's isn't that human nature though?
Isn't it human nature to takethe path of least resistance?
So the courage, the courage totake that leap is what you're
talking about, right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
Sure, is if you do a study.
I'm on the board of the NationalArchives Foundation in
Washington.
The archives keeps all therecords of the United States
government from day one.
We have 22 billion documents.
The largest collection ofantique maps, the largest
collection of film, the largestcollection of photographs in the
(09:28):
world.
And being on the board, this I'min my 15th year, is you learn a
lot about leadership.
And if you go to my website,petercuneo.com, I do have a list
of 15 things that I recommendfor people to learn leadership.
And one of most of them are allabout face-to-face experiences
(09:48):
because I believe 90% oflearning leadership is your
personal experiences with adiversity of people,
professionally, personally,internationally, talking about
the UN.
All of that, you learn theinstincts of how to convince
people to go your way, but ittakes time.
(10:10):
So I just think that it's umit's a challenge, particularly
for young people, but I do havethat list which I recommend.
One of the things on the listis, which doesn't require
face-to-face, is study history.
And there's a lot of ways to dothat.
You can get a book, you can goonline, you can go to museums,
you can travel and go around theworld.
(10:34):
Whatever it takes.
There's a lot of the past isprologue.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
It's so so so incredible to hear, Peter,
because you are that leader.
Um, on your superhero leadershippodcast, which I encourage all
of you uh to listen to, uh,because it's Peter at his best,
uh, like today.
Um, you know, you'll hear Petertalking, you know, a range of
(11:01):
global leaders, CEOs and othersthat are just have been there,
have done that, or are doing it.
And I'd like you, I'd like toask you, Peter, for the global
audience, for the millions ofpeople that will see, watch,
hear this interview, um, whatare some of the threads that you
have found in these leaders?
(11:23):
Like what what what is that?
I know you said courage, andthat's important because without
courage, as they say, someonewiser than maybe we said, all of
the other virtues are notpossible.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
I think you're probably right on that.
Um again, if you study pastsuccessful leaders, you see a
number of things that in theirbehaviors that they all have.
And um one of them is they runat problems.
They do not shy away fromproblems, they actually run at
(12:02):
problems.
Another thing you see is thatthey are very comfortable being
thrown into or making a decisionto go into an alien environment.
Now, an alien in this case, I'mI'm I'm talking about different,
not necessarily bad, butdifferent.
Alien environments come up inyour life.
Sometimes it could be business.
(12:23):
And my first turnaround, my bosswalked into my office and said,
Peter, you're gonna take overthe international division
tomorrow.
You're gonna fly to London withme.
I was like, What?
And yeah, it's a big turnaround.
I had no idea, I knew anything,I had any skills in turnarounds.
I was thrown into an alienenvironment.
(12:45):
And I was depressed for sixmonths until we started getting
results, and I realized it wasall about leadership and so on.
So, or you you work in New York,guess what?
You just took a job in London.
Well, you're gonna go to analien environment.
It was your decision, not a badthing, but good leaders are very
(13:06):
good coping with alienenvironments.
And so, one of the things that Isee with our guests, and I will
say that we have, if you goonline, uh we we did um film uh
season two, so you can actuallysit there for 40 minutes and
watch two people talking to eachother.
I don't know who wants to dothat, but apparently it's very
(13:27):
popular.
And um season one was justaudio.
But our guests are some namesyou would know, but many don't
really know.
But when you hear what theyaccomplished, it's pretty
unbelievable.
It's unbelievable.
And that's the uh the ideabehind it.
But one of the things that Ialways ask is about their
(13:47):
childhood.
Tell me about your childhood.
What was it like?
I almost know what I'm gonnahear.
I mean, one guest said, I grewup in a trailer with five
brothers.
Another one said, um, you know,I basically my father had a lot
(14:08):
of physical problems.
I became a uh, I I deliverednewspapers when I was 10 years
old.
Um but I realized my first itwas first my first business
because I realized that if Iactually didn't just throw the
paper on the front step, but Iactually rang the bell and said,
Is there anything else I can dofor you?
(14:29):
People loved it.
Kind of 10 years old.
Incredible.
So what you what you see thoughwhen you hear these people talk
is they had very uniqueexperiences.
They were challenged by life inmany cases.
They were not overparented, theopposite in most cases.
(14:50):
We have a terrible problem withoverparenting.
This is one of the reasons youngpeople are not learning
leadership.
So, oh, you um oh you didn'tmake that elite soccer team?
Oh, it's the coach's fault.
I'm gonna call the coach andtell him off or her off.
Oh, you got a bad grade inschool?
Oh, it's the teacher's fault.
(15:10):
It's not your fault.
And kids never learn to cope.
A lot of kids today, I hearstories from C-suite people all
the time.
I almost can't believe my earssometimes on the problems with
young people.
First job, very well educated,and uh just amazing stories
about that.
(15:33):
They have no skin.
And they can't handle handle thesimplest setback because they
were never faced with a setbackgrowing up.
So um, you know, but I long,long-winded answer to your
question.
SPEAKER_00 (15:48):
Oh, that it's incredibly insightful, and I
think that it goes back tocourage, right?
And it and you develop thatcourage through adversity,
through experience, through allof these things that you know.
I don't think you can be taughtcourage, is what I'm trying to
say.
Can you?
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
I I don't know.
I I don't know.
You know, I think one of thethings you also see is most of
these leaders were encouraged totake risks, even at a very young
age.
Or they had experiences uh withthe family or friends where they
went into alien environments.
A five-year-old can learnleadership.
(16:26):
Now, I used to say that to theaudience, and all of you would
be going like this.
No way.
My five-year-old doesn't evenknow what leadership means.
And what I explain is this foryour next summer vacation, go to
Europe to a country that doesnot speak English.
(16:47):
Take your five-year-old, andhere's what happens.
Of course, the five-year-olddoesn't know anything about
leadership.
But the emotional reaction,assuming it went well, and
chances are it will go well, isyou know, we went to this place,
I forgot the name.
Um, I didn't understand anythinganyone said.
(17:10):
This is if you're an American,but I would apply this to
anybody going out of theirculture.
And uh the food was different,but I liked it.
Mom and dad, where are we goingnext year?
If you can't afford to go toEurope, okay, not everyone can,
go to Quebec.
If you can't afford to go toQuebec, you don't have to leave
(17:31):
the U.S., go to West Virginiaand let your kids see poverty.
That's another another importantum, I think, I think for all
young kids to know that there ispoverty in the world and what
that really means without havinga you know a terrible
experience.
Of course not.
It's not what I'm saying.
(17:53):
But these the parents, veryoften of these leaders, provided
those kinds of experiences justnaturally.
In my case, I often say I hadthe adventurer gene, and it's
really not uh it's not anythingorganic.
My parents were adventurers, andmy grandparents, three of whom
(18:13):
over four, were were um, youknow, immigrants, they were all
adventurers.
They couldn't sit at a desk.
My mother was an EMT for 30years.
The last 10, because shecouldn't do it physically, she
was a dispatcher for the EMTs.
She would come when I was inhigh school, she worked the 4-12
(18:35):
shift.
She would come to my house andput me in the back with her.
Now we're going way back.
This is before this wasunregulated, this is before
regulations, could never getaway with this.
And I would go on calls, and itwasn't that I did anything
because I wasn't qualified, butI saw my mother in action.
I grew up with a working womanwho had courage.
(18:58):
And I'm not going to get intosome of the graphic details of
what I happened to see because Iwas doing that.
My father was a lieutenant inthe New York City Fire
Department.
Canal on Allen Street here inManhattan was his firehouse.
Some of the worst fires in NewYork City, Chinatown.
And he uh he was, his men oftentold me he was one of the few
(19:23):
officers that actually ran inthe buildings to fight the fires
with them, as opposed tostanding out in the street and
directing.
My father was also in the U.S.
Navy as an officer in World WarII and Korea.
My grandparents uh immigratedfrom Italy, Sweden, and Scotland
(19:46):
via Nova Scotia and Canada.
They survived, they got throughthe depression, they were
middle-class families.
But they worked all jobs.
They got out there.
My grandfather and grandmothermet in a fancy apartment house
uh on Park Avenue, 903 ParkAvenue, which is 79th and Park.
(20:10):
And how'd they meet?
He was the handyman, and she wasrunning the elevator.
Because back then you actuallyhad to have someone in the
elevator to run it.
And that's how they met.
Incredible.
They were downstairs in a sense.
SPEAKER_00 (20:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:26):
Okay, but this is what I grew up with.
So it was um, I went in the Navyto Vietnam.
I'm uh I'm a Vietnam uh uh uhveteran of two tours, a guided
missile destroyer of the Navy.
I really went because myfather's service.
(20:47):
And I just thought it would be abig adventure, admittedly, I was
very naive when I think back.
But when I was when I reallystarted to learn leadership was
in the US Navy in combat.
And I was privileged to haveexperiences under some great
Navy officers and seniorenlisted men, Navy chiefs.
And I learned leadership just bybeing with them, asking them
(21:10):
questions, watching them inaction.
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
So Peter, you what a thank you for that journey
because it's so important tounderstand who you are.
And I think for our globalaudience to understand, you
know, your first of all, thankyou for your service to the
United States without a doubt.
Um I think it it's important tonote that.
(21:35):
Peter, you emphasize theimportance of being human and
being honest and accessible as aleader.
How do you balance that opennesswith the need, the courage, to
make such tough and perhapsunpopular decisions?
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
I actually think it comes down to communications.
And the art of community, it'san art form.
Communications is an art.
And a lot of people have, in inin in my world at least, um,
have never mastered the art orrealized how important it is.
So I'm looking at you threeladies right now, only because
(22:23):
you're in the front row.
50% of what I'm learning aboutyou right now is your body
language.
50%.
I haven't spoken to you yet, ofcourse.
So and if we were speaking, ofthe remaining 50%, 25% would be
(22:43):
what you say, the other 25%would be how you save it, say
it.
So I could probably tell if youreally liked me or not up here
if we have a conversation,regardless of what you say.
Um it's so communications, andif you're a leader, you have to
communicate honestly withpeople.
(23:03):
People know there are problems.
My experience with human beingsis they they feel better being
told the truth, even if it'snegative, than than being in an
atmosphere of total uncertainty.
It's human nature.
Okay, at least I know.
You know, I know what we'rethinking, I know what we're
(23:24):
trying to do.
And so regular communications toas many, I like to be face to
face as we are today, but ifyou're in a big organization,
that's not always possible.
But regular communications,consistent communications,
saying the same thing toeverybody.
How many, how many bad leadershave you met where what they
(23:45):
said was whoever talked to themfive minutes ago, that was their
story.
It could be different from theday before.
It happens.
Poor leadership, poorcommunication.
Uh Peter Cunio, thank you sovery much.
Thank you, George, very much.
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