Discover the transformative power of collaboration in healthcare and workforce development as we host two influential leaders, Bill Novelli and Jane Oates, in a conversation that promises to reshape your understanding of these sectors. Jane Oates, representing Working Nation, brings her expertise on bridging education and workforce gaps, especially for marginalized communities in places like Detroit and among people with disabilities. Meanwhile, Bill Novelli, a trailblazer in social marketing, reveals how marketing principles can revolutionize healthcare systems and workforce strategies. Together, they discuss the profound crises facing healthcare and workforce shortages today, offering insights into aligning objectives and timelines for effective cross-sector partnerships.
Our discussion tackles the pressing trends within the healthcare workforce, such as the shift towards hiring new BSNs and the systemic changes needed to address healthcare professional burnout. Reflecting on lessons from the Obama administration, we delve into the role of public support in driving policy changes like the Affordable Care Act. We explore innovative strategies like career lattice opportunities and the critical importance of preventative health measures. By the end, we spotlight the pivotal role of nutrition and emerging treatments in fighting obesity, reinforcing the need for a proactive approach to public health. Join us for a vital exploration of these critical issues and potential solutions.
#WorkingNation #HealthForce #Ideagen #GLS2025
Jane's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jane-oates-41561453/
Bill's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-novelli/
Learn more about WorkingNation here: https://www.workingnation.com/
Learn more about HealthForce here: https://healthforce.org/
View the entire 2024 Global Leadership Summit here: https://www.ideagenglobal.com/2025globalleadershipsummit
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the IdeaGen Global Leadership Summit
.
This is our Cross-FactorLeadership, health and Workforce
panel.
I'm joined by two amazingguests and experts Bill Novelli
and Jane Oates.
Guys welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you so much yeah, of course.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Uh, you know, I'd like to describe what you all
have done, but I think that listwould be a mile long.
So I'm just going to ask youguys to please briefly introduce
yourselves and kind of let usknow what you're working on
currently jane well, I'm janeoats and I am currently with
working nation.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I've been there for eight years.
It's a non-profit media entitythat tells the stories of
transitions between educationand work and those transitions
have never been more interestingthan they are now and more
frequent.
I'm a teacher by training, aresearcher, a Hill staffer.
Back when the Hill did policy Iworked for Senator Ted Kennedy,
(01:08):
then was in the Obamaadministration as the Assistant
Secretary of Labor, employmentand Training and was the CEO in
New Jersey.
So a big connection betweenhigher ed and workforce.
And right now Working Nation isinvolved in really looking at
geographic specific targets,like right now we're doing
Detroit and how Detroit istransitioning from being solely
(01:32):
a manufacturing area to beingreally a tech hub and a really
interesting center of innovation.
So we'll have some interestingstories on that.
And we also look at populationsthat are often forgotten.
So recently we've done a lot ofwork on the disabled people
with a diagnosed disabilitygetting back into the workforce,
lots of policy concerns thereand looking at people coming
(01:56):
back and getting a second chanceafter involvement with the
justice system.
So it's always somethinginteresting to tell.
But it's interesting to keeppeople focused on the people
they don't think about veryoften.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Wow, that's fascinating, that's just really
fascinating.
So somebody said to me what areyou doing these days?
And I said, well, I'm stayingbusy, I'm off the streets and
I'm so far unindicted.
Somebody said, well, forWashington, that's not that bad,
but I've had a checkered past.
(02:28):
So I started at Unilever incommercial marketing.
I was at the Peace Corps, Istarted a company which is now a
global PR agency, port in theValley.
I was a CEO of AARP and forabout 12 years I taught in the
MBA program at Georgetown.
So what I work on now is Ichair the board of the Campaign
(02:51):
for Tobacco-Free Kids.
I'm working on advanced illnessand end-of-life care, getting
the federal government to investmore in science and technology,
the federal government toinvest more in science and
technology.
And really the focus of whatwe're talking about here today
is health force, which is anational alliance to transform
(03:13):
the us healthcare workforce yeah, again, thank you for uh for
providing that.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I know I've not been able to cover any of those at
all, so I I appreciate you guysuh letting us know what's up.
Um and bill.
So you're a pioneer in socialmarketing.
You'd mentioned your uh, yourwork with the tobacco free kids
campaign, uh, and you've led,you know, transformative
initiatives across sectors.
Uh, can you describe for us howsocial marketing principles can
(03:40):
be applied to bridge the gapbetween the health sector and
workforce development?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, you know we've got a twin crisis.
On the one hand, our healthcaresystem is not serving us well
If you can believe this, we are80th in the world in preventable
deaths.
Wow, I mean, this is it's beendescribed as an extravagantly
expensive failure and at thesame time, our health care
(04:08):
workforce is failing us, andwe've got to do something about
both those things.
So, from a social marketingstandpoint, what we're trying to
do there is apply marketingprinciples to improve people's
behaviors as well as society asa whole.
So an example would be smokingcessation or responsible
drinking, and the idea is tocome up with benefits that will
(04:31):
get people to engage, to changetheir behaviors.
But that's not enough.
We've got to do the kind ofthings that Jane's been talking
about.
We've got to change policy.
So an example would be, let'ssay, to ban smoking in public
places.
That's a policy change, and ifyou combine the macro and the
(04:52):
micro, then you're gonna getsomewhere.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah, the corporate and the governance coming
together.
Exactly, exactly.
That's great to hear, Jane.
Cross-sector leadership oftenrequires balancing diverse
priorities, as you know.
How can leaders in health andworkforce development
effectively collaborate tocreate sustainable solutions
that address both public healthneeds and workforce challenges?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So I think it begins with clear communication.
I mean, I think the biggest Idon't know how you feel about
this bill, but I think one ofthe biggest hurdles between
public-private partnerships islanguage.
Corporate America sees time asone thing.
Educational America sees timeas another.
So a business will go, ahospital will go to a local
community college and say youknow, we really need this, many
(05:37):
more allied health workers.
And they'll say, well, we'llhave that curriculum ready in 18
months and the hospital'sthinking in 18 months we'll be
out of business.
You know, we'll have failed ourcommunity.
So I think developing thatcommon language and really clear
goals, saying to someone 18months is just usually a meeting
(05:58):
like that.
The business will walk away andsay I'm going somewhere else.
Business will walk away and sayI'm going somewhere else and
they'll often go to a moreexpensive, more elite you know a
for-profit entity to get themto do something more quickly or
they'll do it themselves.
So I think that communicationis key.
The second I think is youreally have to have measurable
goals for success.
(06:19):
So many times people go into apartnership or a co-work
environment and they don'tenvironment and they think it's
rude to talk about what successis going to look like.
You should talk about what issuccess going to look like
immediately, because again itgoes back to language.
The educational provider.
I keep using community colleges, but it can be anybody needs a
(06:40):
certain number in a cohort tomake it fiscally feasible for
them to operate a program.
They can't train two people ata time.
It's not financially viable.
But the hospital may say I onlyneed two today but I'm going to
need two every month for thenext 12 or 16 months.
So getting that together andfiguring out.
And then, of course, the thirdis looking at your.
(07:01):
I think corporate America doesa mediocre job of looking at
their incumbent talent andlooking at transferable skills
where they could go in.
So I think that has to be partof initial discussions.
Who do you have now that islikely to lose their job in the
next 18 months because ofadvances, and how do you train
them to take over the jobs thatyou're going to need?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, you know, jane, that's so, so important.
You're talking about language,goals, metrics.
I mean, that's all critical.
So what is success?
And I think that we shouldmeasure success two ways.
One is a healthier country,starting with our kids, and the
second thing really isimprovements in our healthcare
workforce.
We need to make it bigger, weneed to make it more diverse and
(07:50):
more productive.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, I agree with you.
I think that communication youwere talking about it's hand in
hand, right.
If you don't know what the goalis and you don't communicate
what the goal is, workers aregoing to be, you know, less
motivated, you know less capableof getting the job done, which
you know we've covered is apretty important job to get done
.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah, you know we were talking earlier about when
Jane worked for Senator Kennedy.
Senator Kennedy lovedstorytelling.
He was a storyteller and whatwe need is more strategic
stories.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
People that are committed to telling the real
story.
You know, because people willsay, in healthcare especially,
they'll say, oh, there's greatpathway programs.
That is such an exaggeration.
You know.
We don't have a clear pathwayfor, for instance, home
healthcare workers to becomeanything else, because we have
such a need for them, we don'twant them to leave.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Well, you know, we had our first speakers.
The host of healthcare pipelineyou know, going to be key, I
think, for the you knowworkforce shortage.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I think that's key, because you ask the average high
school student what are the jobtitles in healthcare and
they'll give you the ones thatthey visited.
You know doctor, nurse, dentist, things like that.
They have no idea about alliedhealth and equally, they have no
idea about those positions thatwere discussed by the HOSA
panel.
You know nurse practitionersand physicians assistants.
(09:08):
They have no idea that thoseexist.
If they don't get into medicalschool, they think there's no
future for them.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
So this is a question for both of you.
From your experiences, what doyou see as the biggest challenge
in fostering effectivecross-sector collaboration
between health and workforcedevelopment, and how can leaders
overcome these barriers?
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Oh no, you go first this time.
Well, I talked about it earlier.
The biggest challenges are thatour healthcare system is
failing us.
It's just too expensive, itdoesn't provide the care we need
.
I love those host of kidsbecause they they have a sense
they're the leaders of tomorrowand they're going to be
confronted with a health caresystem that doesn't work, and
(09:52):
that's a huge challenge.
And then where are the workersof tomorrow, the kind of people
that Jane's talking about, tosupport them?
Speaker 2 (09:59):
those are the challenges we have to overcome
doing an excellent job orfor-profit organizations, they
(10:23):
would have a very limited viewof what the jobs are in
healthcare in the future.
So things you know, obviouslythey know the patient care jobs,
but they don't know informaticsjobs.
They don't know about thethings that telehealth is going
to need as it expands andbecomes more commonplace.
So I think really having abetter understanding with big
(10:48):
providers I mean the bighospital systems you know GW
here in the district but there'sa big healthcare system in
every state for them to reallytalk about what the trends are.
We have seen trends in largehospital systems moving away
from RNs and only hiring newlyminted BSNs and somebody should
be telling people that that if?
(11:08):
you aspire, as a young woman ora young man, to be a nurse?
That you should and you want towork in a hospital, a large
hospital system at GW Hopkinshere in the region.
You want to work there.
You're probably going to needto have a BSN or several years
experience as an RN and youshould be able to make that
(11:29):
informed decision.
Quite frankly, I think thehospital systems are doing this
because they see the growth thatnurses are going to have to
take in the future, the newresponsibilities.
I think it will be verycommonplace within the next five
years that we'll see a PA or anurse practitioner rather than
seeing an MD when we go for aroutine exam.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah, but you know things are not working out with
respect to our healthcareworkforce.
Docs and nurses and otherclinicians are burning out,
they're dropping out.
There's not enough people beingtrained, the pay isn't adequate
.
There are all kinds of you know.
People can't practice to theextent of their licensure.
(12:10):
There are all kinds of reasonswhy we've got to fix the
healthcare workforce.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Can I just as a quick follow-up to that, do you see
that as strictly a post-COVIDtrend, or was that pre-COVID,
pre-covid?
It's been going on for a longtime.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Covid trend or was that pre-COVID, pre-covid?
It's been going on for a longtime.
The helping professions arebasically hollowing out.
That goes in spades for thehealthcare workforce.
That's why health force is soimportant.
I mean, this is a movement,this is an alliance.
The idea is we've got to fixthis.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, it's impossible .
I mean, when you think aboutnurses being certified to only
practice in a state, in a porousworld where you could live in
one state and move to anothervery quickly.
These nurses have to berelicensed every time, and so do
most of the health careprofessionals.
That's crazy.
I mean, if you've passed astate licensing exam, there
(13:02):
should be reciprocity.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Thank you for helping me there, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, trying to take down those barriers, welcome
down Bill your leadership atAARP and CTEC focused on
empowering consumers andimproving systems.
What insights from these rolescan inform cross-sector
collaboration to addressworkforce shortages in health
care, while advancing betteroutcomes for patients and their
families?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Well, we haven't talked about consumers.
We haven't talked about, youknow, the American electorate.
You know Abraham Lincoln saidif you have public opinion on
your side, anything is possible.
I'm a big believer ingrassroots.
We have got to get the publicbehind us and you know, here's a
woman who has been involved inpolicymaking for a long time and
(13:50):
I think that we can all agreethat politicians know how to
count votes.
So if we've got a really strong, grassroots, strong public
opinion on our side, we can makethese changes.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
That's great to hear, jay, and that kind of leads me
into my next question.
You mentioned your successfulcareer and working in the Obama
administration.
What key lessons can you takeaway from your workforce role in
the administration to implementthat into the healthcare
workforce crisis, could I fairto say, Fair to say.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Look, I think when people 100 years from now look
(14:41):
at the Obama administration, theAffordable Care Act is going to
be the platinum standard.
Trying to really do what goodpoliticians, workforce, that we
could say people had access tohealth care.
But if they didn't have accessto people who were trained in
health care, they really didn'thave any access at all at both
the Department of Education andthe Department of Labor.
(15:04):
Pathways programs, programsthat would say, if you start,
you know, and the story isalways LPN, rn, bsn.
But the reality is, find one,find somebody who's done that.
So we really talked about,instead of just a pathway and a
linear progression, looking at alattice.
So, for instance, if you were adietician in a hospital, how
(15:25):
could you transition into apatient-serving career?
Or if you were in apatient-facing career, how could
you get out of it if you wereburning out but still stay in
healthcare?
So how could you go into thingslike billing and coding?
How could you go into hospitaladministration?
Or something we haven't talkedabout that I know we care deeply
about is public health.
How do you move from thathospital system you're in where
(15:48):
you can't stand working overtimeand you can't stand three
shifts.
How do you move into publichealth, that which is just as
important, just as tiring, butit operates from 8, 30 to 5.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
rewarding I see oh absolutely yeah um, a question
for for both of you.
I know, bill, you'd mentionedsome successes are accessing
public health and that's a wayto measure that success, but are
there other kind of ways thatyou can measure cross-sector
initiatives that both impactworkforce development and the
public health outcomes?
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Well, to me, the most important thing is prevention.
We are a country that doesn'tpay, that doesn't invest
adequately in prevention.
If we did a better job inprevention, a lot of the
problems that we're talkingabout here would be abated, and
so, if you think aboutprevention about smoking
(16:42):
cessation, about responsibledrinking, about all the
different things that go intoobesity is a great example.
We've got to make a differencethere, and we keep shortchanging
our prevention strategies andactions in this country.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Jane, I think, bill, when you mentioned obesity a
huge problem, you know, whichstems from lack of adequate
nutrition and adequate access tohealthy foods and thinking
about prevention, thinking aboutteaching people how to eat more
healthily but what happens nowwith these new drugs, you know?
I mean I'm very interested.
(17:20):
I hope somebody is doinglong-term research on this, as I
won't mention any names, butthe drugs that help with weight
loss very expensive, insurancenot covering them right now.
So the people with means aretaking advantage of those new
ways to lose weight, leavingbehind healthy eating and Weight
Watchers and things like that,and going right to medication.
(17:41):
But the people who need it most, the people who don't have
great insurance plans or don'thave disposable income, can't
get access to them.
But so it's going to.
I think that's going to be astudy that's looked at again,
again in the next five to 10years.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
It is, it is.
But you know, what's alsohappening is that childhood
obesity is on the rise.
That has nothing to do withdrugs.
We've got to work on that is onthe rise.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That has nothing to do with drugs.
We've got to work on that Rootcause.
And, Bill, I know we brieflyhad mentioned Health Force and
the coalition that you guys areestablishing, which is just
incredible.
But you know, could youdescribe how Health Force is
addressing issues in thehealthcare workforce and the
personal potential impact thatyou see health force having?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
I think health force is going to make a big
difference.
You know, when you think abouta movement, you've got to
develop coalitions that havereally broad appeal.
So health force has gotclinicians involved, They've got
companies involved.
We have universities involved.
It's a broad coalition and Ithink we've got good strategies
(18:48):
and obviously we've got aburning platform.
So I think health force isgoing to be exciting and I think
it's going to be effective.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I agree and I look forward to kind of seeing where
you guys take that off.
I remember when you firstestablished health force.
You know it was incredible tosee the awesome team you guys
put together.
So, jane, looking ahead, whatemerging trends do you see
shaping the intersection ofhealth and workforce development
?
I know we've mentioned thetrends are changing all the time
(19:16):
, right, and what role do youbelieve that leaders will have
in addressing these challenges?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So I hope that, leaders, one of the most
interesting things that I'veseen in the past probably year
is the development of anAmeriCorps program just for
mental health a mental healthcorps.
That means that people who arefrom communities are going into
communities to talk about theinvisible problem, sometimes
very visible problem, but theinvisible problem of mental
health.
You know I'm thinking aboutanxiety and depression and
(19:45):
things like that that lead toother things.
So I think using structuresthat people have come to know,
as you're doing with HealthForce like AmeriCorps, to kind
of build experiences for people,will both help the community
immediately but also give peoplean open-end look at what are
the jobs in this sector.
(20:05):
You know people don't know whatthe jobs are.
They can say the words mentalhealth counselor.
They have no idea what thatmeans.
So I think that will be reallypositive in that niche and I
hope that people.
You know we've seen somebusinesses really doing a better
.
Look at career navigation andlooking at healthcare.
I mean, look, healthcare hasadded jobs every month for the
(20:27):
past 11 years.
It is the only sector that'sdone that, month after month.
When we see the job numbers,it's healthcare at the lead,
adding 50, 60, 70,000 jobs amonth and most of them not all,
most of them quality jobs, jobsthat give you a family
(20:48):
sustaining wage to supportyourself, jobs that give you
benefits like health care andretirement benefits.
So I mean, I think it's crazyfor people not to get more
involved in this, I hope in thefuture.
I hope this gives them a littleprod.
The pharmaceutical sector andhealth care should get a little
more transparent about what thejobs are there and what the
opportunities are there, and Ialso think that retail health
(21:10):
needs to be a little moretransparent.
Many people see urgent carecenters whether they're at your
grocery store or at yourpharmacy opening, and yet people
don't know what the job titlesare there.
Do you have to be an RN?
Do you need to be an RN with abusiness degree?
You know how do I get to runone of those grocery store
clinics?
How do I get to run.
(21:31):
So I think we need moretransparency, but I do think it
shows that corporate America isstepping up.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Well, I'm so glad that you brought up mental
health.
You know, adolescent mentalhealth is really the issue of
our day.
So yesterday, research Americaput out a consumer survey and
they asked a key question, whichis do you think that young
people of today will grow up tobe better or worse off than
(21:59):
their parents?
And the majority of people saidworse off.
Now why?
And the answer was social media.
Social media is probably thenext big area of attack in this
country and it really doescontribute to mental health
problems among kids.
So the kinds of things we'retalking about are just
(22:19):
ubiquitous, they just spreadacross society.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, that's a crazy stat to hear you think, with all
the progression that we've made, to think that we may be going
backwards.
Startling, phil, I kind of haveone more question for you here,
based on your experience withcare and international
initiatives what lessons fromglobal health and development
can be adapted to enhanceworkforce capacity and
(22:45):
resilience in the US health caresystem?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
You know I worked in international development with
Porto Novelli.
I did a lot of work with careand I think you learn to be
grateful when you work indeveloping countries and I've
worked in 40 developingcountries.
You learn to do more with less.
You learn to really work hardon women and girls empowerment
(23:11):
and you learn to appreciate whatwe have in this country and
that you cannot squander theresources that we have.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Jane, you know, I think gratefulness is something
we all need to take a step backand be grateful every day.
I think one of the new thingsthat we're seeing is the effect
of the environment on health.
I mean, certainly, our friendsin North Carolina, our friends
in California, you know, haveseen this firsthand with
(23:40):
hurricanes and the incrediblefires.
But we need to do more lookingat the environment's impact on
our health.
It's not just seasonalallergies anymore, it's our
drinking water, it's everything,it's the air that we breathe.
We really need to take a deeperlook at how do we make sure the
environment is helping usremain healthy, not creating
(24:01):
another health problem.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah, it's everywhere .
Health care is everywhere.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Health care is problem.
Yeah, it's everywhere.
Healthcare is everywhere.
Healthcare is everywhere.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Well, thank you all again.
This has been an amazing paneland I appreciate all the
perspectives you've brought toexperts in both your fields, so
thank you again.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Thank you, daniel, thank you and Jane Great.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Really fun doing this with Bill.
Yeah, likewise, likewise.
Welcome to the IdeaGen Global Leadership Summit
.
This is our Cross-FactorLeadership, health and Workforce
panel.
I'm joined by two amazingguests and experts Bill Novelli
and Jane Oates.
Guys welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thank you so much yeah, of course.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Uh, you know, I'd like to describe what you all
have done, but I think that listwould be a mile long.
So I'm just going to ask youguys to please briefly introduce
yourselves and kind of let usknow what you're working on
currently jane well, I'm janeoats and I am currently with
working nation.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I've been there for eight years.
It's a non-profit media entitythat tells the stories of
transitions between educationand work and those transitions
have never been more interestingthan they are now and more
frequent.
I'm a teacher by training, aresearcher, a Hill staffer.
Back when the Hill did policy Iworked for Senator Ted Kennedy,
(01:08):
then was in the Obamaadministration as the Assistant
Secretary of Labor, employmentand Training and was the CEO in
New Jersey.
So a big connection betweenhigher ed and workforce.
And right now Working Nation isinvolved in really looking at
geographic specific targets,like right now we're doing
Detroit and how Detroit istransitioning from being solely
(01:32):
a manufacturing area to beingreally a tech hub and a really
interesting center of innovation.
So we'll have some interestingstories on that.
And we also look at populationsthat are often forgotten.
So recently we've done a lot ofwork on the disabled people
with a diagnosed disabilitygetting back into the workforce,
lots of policy concerns thereand looking at people coming
(01:56):
back and getting a second chanceafter involvement with the
justice system.
So it's always somethinginteresting to tell.
But it's interesting to keeppeople focused on the people
they don't think about veryoften.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Wow, that's fascinating, that's just really
fascinating.
So somebody said to me what areyou doing these days?
And I said, well, I'm stayingbusy, I'm off the streets and
I'm so far unindicted.
Somebody said, well, forWashington, that's not that bad,
but I've had a checkered past.
(02:28):
So I started at Unilever incommercial marketing.
I was at the Peace Corps, Istarted a company which is now a
global PR agency, port in theValley.
I was a CEO of AARP and forabout 12 years I taught in the
MBA program at Georgetown.
So what I work on now is Ichair the board of the Campaign
(02:51):
for Tobacco-Free Kids.
I'm working on advanced illnessand end-of-life care, getting
the federal government to investmore in science and technology,
the federal government toinvest more in science and
technology.
And really the focus of whatwe're talking about here today
is health force, which is anational alliance to transform
(03:13):
the us healthcare workforce yeah, again, thank you for uh for
providing that.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I know I've not been able to cover any of those at
all, so I I appreciate you guysuh letting us know what's up.
Um and bill.
So you're a pioneer in socialmarketing.
You'd mentioned your uh, yourwork with the tobacco free kids
campaign, uh, and you've led,you know, transformative
initiatives across sectors.
Uh, can you describe for us howsocial marketing principles can
(03:40):
be applied to bridge the gapbetween the health sector and
workforce development?
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, you know we've got a twin crisis.
On the one hand, our healthcaresystem is not serving us well
If you can believe this, we are80th in the world in preventable
deaths.
Wow, I mean, this is it's beendescribed as an extravagantly
expensive failure and at thesame time, our health care
(04:08):
workforce is failing us, andwe've got to do something about
both those things.
So, from a social marketingstandpoint, what we're trying to
do there is apply marketingprinciples to improve people's
behaviors as well as society asa whole.
So an example would be smokingcessation or responsible
drinking, and the idea is tocome up with benefits that will
(04:31):
get people to engage, to changetheir behaviors.
But that's not enough.
We've got to do the kind ofthings that Jane's been talking
about.
We've got to change policy.
So an example would be, let'ssay, to ban smoking in public
places.
That's a policy change, and ifyou combine the macro and the
(04:52):
micro, then you're gonna getsomewhere.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah, the corporate and the governance coming
together.
Exactly, exactly.
That's great to hear, Jane.
Cross-sector leadership oftenrequires balancing diverse
priorities, as you know.
How can leaders in health andworkforce development
effectively collaborate tocreate sustainable solutions
that address both public healthneeds and workforce challenges?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So I think it begins with clear communication.
I mean, I think the biggest Idon't know how you feel about
this bill, but I think one ofthe biggest hurdles between
public-private partnerships islanguage.
Corporate America sees time asone thing.
Educational America sees timeas another.
So a business will go, ahospital will go to a local
community college and say youknow, we really need this, many
(05:37):
more allied health workers.
And they'll say, well, we'llhave that curriculum ready in 18
months and the hospital'sthinking in 18 months we'll be
out of business.
You know, we'll have failed ourcommunity.
So I think developing thatcommon language and really clear
goals, saying to someone 18months is just usually a meeting
(05:58):
like that.
The business will walk away andsay I'm going somewhere else.
Business will walk away and sayI'm going somewhere else and
they'll often go to a moreexpensive, more elite you know a
for-profit entity to get themto do something more quickly or
they'll do it themselves.
So I think that communicationis key.
The second I think is youreally have to have measurable
goals for success.
(06:19):
So many times people go into apartnership or a co-work
environment and they don'tenvironment and they think it's
rude to talk about what successis going to look like.
You should talk about what issuccess going to look like
immediately, because again itgoes back to language.
The educational provider.
I keep using community colleges, but it can be anybody needs a
(06:40):
certain number in a cohort tomake it fiscally feasible for
them to operate a program.
They can't train two people ata time.
It's not financially viable.
But the hospital may say I onlyneed two today but I'm going to
need two every month for thenext 12 or 16 months.
So getting that together andfiguring out.
And then, of course, the thirdis looking at your.
(07:01):
I think corporate America doesa mediocre job of looking at
their incumbent talent andlooking at transferable skills
where they could go in.
So I think that has to be partof initial discussions.
Who do you have now that islikely to lose their job in the
next 18 months because ofadvances, and how do you train
them to take over the jobs thatyou're going to need?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, you know, jane, that's so, so important.
You're talking about language,goals, metrics.
I mean, that's all critical.
So what is success?
And I think that we shouldmeasure success two ways.
One is a healthier country,starting with our kids, and the
second thing really isimprovements in our healthcare
workforce.
We need to make it bigger, weneed to make it more diverse and
(07:50):
more productive.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, I agree with you.
I think that communication youwere talking about it's hand in
hand, right.
If you don't know what the goalis and you don't communicate
what the goal is, workers aregoing to be, you know, less
motivated, you know less capableof getting the job done, which
you know we've covered is apretty important job to get done
.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah, you know we were talking earlier about when
Jane worked for Senator Kennedy.
Senator Kennedy lovedstorytelling.
He was a storyteller and whatwe need is more strategic
stories.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
People that are committed to telling the real
story.
You know, because people willsay, in healthcare especially,
they'll say, oh, there's greatpathway programs.
That is such an exaggeration.
You know.
We don't have a clear pathwayfor, for instance, home
healthcare workers to becomeanything else, because we have
such a need for them, we don'twant them to leave.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Well, you know, we had our first speakers.
The host of healthcare pipelineyou know, going to be key, I
think, for the you knowworkforce shortage.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I think that's key, because you ask the average high
school student what are the jobtitles in healthcare and
they'll give you the ones thatthey visited.
You know doctor, nurse, dentist, things like that.
They have no idea about alliedhealth and equally, they have no
idea about those positions thatwere discussed by the HOSA
panel.
You know nurse practitionersand physicians assistants.
(09:08):
They have no idea that thoseexist.
If they don't get into medicalschool, they think there's no
future for them.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
So this is a question for both of you.
From your experiences, what doyou see as the biggest challenge
in fostering effectivecross-sector collaboration
between health and workforcedevelopment, and how can leaders
overcome these barriers?
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Oh no, you go first this time.
Well, I talked about it earlier.
The biggest challenges are thatour healthcare system is
failing us.
It's just too expensive, itdoesn't provide the care we need
.
I love those host of kidsbecause they they have a sense
they're the leaders of tomorrowand they're going to be
confronted with a health caresystem that doesn't work, and
(09:52):
that's a huge challenge.
And then where are the workersof tomorrow, the kind of people
that Jane's talking about, tosupport them?
Speaker 2 (09:59):
those are the challenges we have to overcome
doing an excellent job orfor-profit organizations, they
(10:23):
would have a very limited viewof what the jobs are in
healthcare in the future.
So things you know, obviouslythey know the patient care jobs,
but they don't know informaticsjobs.
They don't know about thethings that telehealth is going
to need as it expands andbecomes more commonplace.
So I think really having abetter understanding with big
(10:48):
providers I mean the bighospital systems you know GW
here in the district but there'sa big healthcare system in
every state for them to reallytalk about what the trends are.
We have seen trends in largehospital systems moving away
from RNs and only hiring newlyminted BSNs and somebody should
be telling people that that if?
(11:08):
you aspire, as a young woman ora young man, to be a nurse?
That you should and you want towork in a hospital, a large
hospital system at GW Hopkinshere in the region.
You want to work there.
You're probably going to needto have a BSN or several years
experience as an RN and youshould be able to make that
(11:29):
informed decision.
Quite frankly, I think thehospital systems are doing this
because they see the growth thatnurses are going to have to
take in the future, the newresponsibilities.
I think it will be verycommonplace within the next five
years that we'll see a PA or anurse practitioner rather than
seeing an MD when we go for aroutine exam.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah, but you know things are not working out with
respect to our healthcareworkforce.
Docs and nurses and otherclinicians are burning out,
they're dropping out.
There's not enough people beingtrained, the pay isn't adequate
.
There are all kinds of you know.
People can't practice to theextent of their licensure.
(12:10):
There are all kinds of reasonswhy we've got to fix the
healthcare workforce.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Can I just as a quick follow-up to that, do you see
that as strictly a post-COVIDtrend, or was that pre-COVID,
pre-covid?
It's been going on for a longtime.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Covid trend or was that pre-COVID, pre-covid?
It's been going on for a longtime.
The helping professions arebasically hollowing out.
That goes in spades for thehealthcare workforce.
That's why health force is soimportant.
I mean, this is a movement,this is an alliance.
The idea is we've got to fixthis.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, it's impossible .
I mean, when you think aboutnurses being certified to only
practice in a state, in a porousworld where you could live in
one state and move to anothervery quickly.
These nurses have to berelicensed every time, and so do
most of the health careprofessionals.
That's crazy.
I mean, if you've passed astate licensing exam, there
(13:02):
should be reciprocity.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Thank you for helping me there, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, trying to take down those barriers, welcome
down Bill your leadership atAARP and CTEC focused on
empowering consumers andimproving systems.
What insights from these rolescan inform cross-sector
collaboration to addressworkforce shortages in health
care, while advancing betteroutcomes for patients and their
families?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Well, we haven't talked about consumers.
We haven't talked about, youknow, the American electorate.
You know Abraham Lincoln saidif you have public opinion on
your side, anything is possible.
I'm a big believer ingrassroots.
We have got to get the publicbehind us and you know, here's a
woman who has been involved inpolicymaking for a long time and
(13:50):
I think that we can all agreethat politicians know how to
count votes.
So if we've got a really strong, grassroots, strong public
opinion on our side, we can makethese changes.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
That's great to hear, jay, and that kind of leads me
into my next question.
You mentioned your successfulcareer and working in the Obama
administration.
What key lessons can you takeaway from your workforce role in
the administration to implementthat into the healthcare
workforce crisis, could I fairto say, Fair to say.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Look, I think when people 100 years from now look
(14:41):
at the Obama administration, theAffordable Care Act is going to
be the platinum standard.
Trying to really do what goodpoliticians, workforce, that we
could say people had access tohealth care.
But if they didn't have accessto people who were trained in
health care, they really didn'thave any access at all at both
the Department of Education andthe Department of Labor.
(15:04):
Pathways programs, programsthat would say, if you start,
you know, and the story isalways LPN, rn, bsn.
But the reality is, find one,find somebody who's done that.
So we really talked about,instead of just a pathway and a
linear progression, looking at alattice.
So, for instance, if you were adietician in a hospital, how
(15:25):
could you transition into apatient-serving career?
Or if you were in apatient-facing career, how could
you get out of it if you wereburning out but still stay in
healthcare?
So how could you go into thingslike billing and coding?
How could you go into hospitaladministration?
Or something we haven't talkedabout that I know we care deeply
about is public health.
How do you move from thathospital system you're in where
(15:48):
you can't stand working overtimeand you can't stand three
shifts.
How do you move into publichealth, that which is just as
important, just as tiring, butit operates from 8, 30 to 5.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
rewarding I see oh absolutely yeah um, a question
for for both of you.
I know, bill, you'd mentionedsome successes are accessing
public health and that's a wayto measure that success, but are
there other kind of ways thatyou can measure cross-sector
initiatives that both impactworkforce development and the
public health outcomes?
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Well, to me, the most important thing is prevention.
We are a country that doesn'tpay, that doesn't invest
adequately in prevention.
If we did a better job inprevention, a lot of the
problems that we're talkingabout here would be abated, and
so, if you think aboutprevention about smoking
(16:42):
cessation, about responsibledrinking, about all the
different things that go intoobesity is a great example.
We've got to make a differencethere, and we keep shortchanging
our prevention strategies andactions in this country.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Jane, I think, bill, when you mentioned obesity a
huge problem, you know, whichstems from lack of adequate
nutrition and adequate access tohealthy foods and thinking
about prevention, thinking aboutteaching people how to eat more
healthily but what happens nowwith these new drugs, you know?
I mean I'm very interested.
(17:20):
I hope somebody is doinglong-term research on this, as I
won't mention any names, butthe drugs that help with weight
loss very expensive, insurancenot covering them right now.
So the people with means aretaking advantage of those new
ways to lose weight, leavingbehind healthy eating and Weight
Watchers and things like that,and going right to medication.
(17:41):
But the people who need it most, the people who don't have
great insurance plans or don'thave disposable income, can't
get access to them.
But so it's going to.
I think that's going to be astudy that's looked at again,
again in the next five to 10years.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
It is, it is.
But you know, what's alsohappening is that childhood
obesity is on the rise.
That has nothing to do withdrugs.
We've got to work on that is onthe rise.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That has nothing to do with drugs.
We've got to work on that Rootcause.
And, Bill, I know we brieflyhad mentioned Health Force and
the coalition that you guys areestablishing, which is just
incredible.
But you know, could youdescribe how Health Force is
addressing issues in thehealthcare workforce and the
personal potential impact thatyou see health force having?
Speaker 3 (18:26):
I think health force is going to make a big
difference.
You know, when you think abouta movement, you've got to
develop coalitions that havereally broad appeal.
So health force has gotclinicians involved, They've got
companies involved.
We have universities involved.
It's a broad coalition and Ithink we've got good strategies
(18:48):
and obviously we've got aburning platform.
So I think health force isgoing to be exciting and I think
it's going to be effective.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I agree and I look forward to kind of seeing where
you guys take that off.
I remember when you firstestablished health force.
You know it was incredible tosee the awesome team you guys
put together.
So, jane, looking ahead, whatemerging trends do you see
shaping the intersection ofhealth and workforce development
?
I know we've mentioned thetrends are changing all the time
(19:16):
, right, and what role do youbelieve that leaders will have
in addressing these challenges?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So I hope that, leaders, one of the most
interesting things that I'veseen in the past probably year
is the development of anAmeriCorps program just for
mental health a mental healthcorps.
That means that people who arefrom communities are going into
communities to talk about theinvisible problem, sometimes
very visible problem, but theinvisible problem of mental
health.
You know I'm thinking aboutanxiety and depression and
(19:45):
things like that that lead toother things.
So I think using structuresthat people have come to know,
as you're doing with HealthForce like AmeriCorps, to kind
of build experiences for people,will both help the community
immediately but also give peoplean open-end look at what are
the jobs in this sector.
(20:05):
You know people don't know whatthe jobs are.
They can say the words mentalhealth counselor.
They have no idea what thatmeans.
So I think that will be reallypositive in that niche and I
hope that people.
You know we've seen somebusinesses really doing a better
.
Look at career navigation andlooking at healthcare.
I mean, look, healthcare hasadded jobs every month for the
(20:27):
past 11 years.
It is the only sector that'sdone that, month after month.
When we see the job numbers,it's healthcare at the lead,
adding 50, 60, 70,000 jobs amonth and most of them not all,
most of them quality jobs, jobsthat give you a family
(20:48):
sustaining wage to supportyourself, jobs that give you
benefits like health care andretirement benefits.
So I mean, I think it's crazyfor people not to get more
involved in this, I hope in thefuture.
I hope this gives them a littleprod.
The pharmaceutical sector andhealth care should get a little
more transparent about what thejobs are there and what the
opportunities are there, and Ialso think that retail health
(21:10):
needs to be a little moretransparent.
Many people see urgent carecenters whether they're at your
grocery store or at yourpharmacy opening, and yet people
don't know what the job titlesare there.
Do you have to be an RN?
Do you need to be an RN with abusiness degree?
You know how do I get to runone of those grocery store
clinics?
How do I get to run.
(21:31):
So I think we need moretransparency, but I do think it
shows that corporate America isstepping up.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Well, I'm so glad that you brought up mental
health.
You know, adolescent mentalhealth is really the issue of
our day.
So yesterday, research Americaput out a consumer survey and
they asked a key question, whichis do you think that young
people of today will grow up tobe better or worse off than
(21:59):
their parents?
And the majority of people saidworse off.
Now why?
And the answer was social media.
Social media is probably thenext big area of attack in this
country and it really doescontribute to mental health
problems among kids.
So the kinds of things we'retalking about are just
(22:19):
ubiquitous, they just spreadacross society.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, that's a crazy stat to hear you think, with all
the progression that we've made, to think that we may be going
backwards.
Startling, phil, I kind of haveone more question for you here,
based on your experience withcare and international
initiatives what lessons fromglobal health and development
can be adapted to enhanceworkforce capacity and
(22:45):
resilience in the US health caresystem?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
You know I worked in international development with
Porto Novelli.
I did a lot of work with careand I think you learn to be
grateful when you work indeveloping countries and I've
worked in 40 developingcountries.
You learn to do more with less.
You learn to really work hardon women and girls empowerment
(23:11):
and you learn to appreciate whatwe have in this country and
that you cannot squander theresources that we have.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Jane, you know, I think gratefulness is something
we all need to take a step backand be grateful every day.
I think one of the new thingsthat we're seeing is the effect
of the environment on health.
I mean, certainly, our friendsin North Carolina, our friends
in California, you know, haveseen this firsthand with
(23:40):
hurricanes and the incrediblefires.
But we need to do more lookingat the environment's impact on
our health.
It's not just seasonalallergies anymore, it's our
drinking water, it's everything,it's the air that we breathe.
We really need to take a deeperlook at how do we make sure the
environment is helping usremain healthy, not creating
(24:01):
another health problem.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah, it's everywhere .
Health care is everywhere.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Health care is problem.
Yeah, it's everywhere.
Healthcare is everywhere.
Healthcare is everywhere.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Well, thank you all again.
This has been an amazing paneland I appreciate all the
perspectives you've brought toexperts in both your fields, so
thank you again.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Thank you, daniel, thank you and Jane Great.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Really fun doing this with Bill.
Yeah, likewise, likewise.
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