Antisemitism & Should Christians Support Israel? | Dr. Jeff Myers - Ideas Have Consequences

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeff Myers (00:04):
Antisemitic hate crimes are at their highest
level since the run-up to WorldWar II.
In the United States of Americathere's an antisemitic
anti-Jewish hate crime takingplace every hour of every day,
all year long.
There were 9,000, some recordedlast year 9,000.

Scott Allen (00:20):
And there's no other group that's facing this
kind of hatred and persecutionin the United States.
This level right Doesn't seemto be.
Yeah, doesn't seem to be anyother group that's facing this
kind of hatred and persecutionin the United States.

Jeff Myers (00:26):
This level right.

Doesn't seem to be.

Jeff Myers (00:27):
Yeah, doesn't seem to be any other group that's
facing it this intensely Right.
So what should Christians do?

Luke Allen (00:39):
Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences the
podcast of the Disciple NationsAlliance.
Ideas have Consequences thepodcast of the Disciple Nations
Alliance.
Here on this show, we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world, to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.

(00:59):
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.

Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas
have Consequences, the podcastof the Disciple Nations Alliance
.
I'm Scott Allen and before weget into our podcast topic today
and invite our special guest on, I wanted to just quickly make
a pitch for our upcomingDisciple Nations Alliance DNA
Global Forum, which is coming upin August in Panama City.

(01:41):
Every few years we gathertogether as a DNA global
community of people who've beendeeply impacted by the training
of DNA, by the ideas and thetraining.
Many folks are activelytraining and teaching in a
variety of different waysthrough churches and

(02:01):
organizations.
This is a time when we allgather together and we learn
from each other, from around theworld, what people are doing,
how we can learn, encourage oneanother and, as an active
listener to the podcast Ideashave Consequences, if you're a
regular active listener, we'dlike you to consider coming to

(02:22):
the Global Forum as well.
Luke, tell folks how they cando that if you don't mind.

Luke Allen (02:27):
Yeah, absolutely Like you were saying, this
year's forum is in Panama City,panama, from August 4th through
August 8th, and I'm reallyexcited about this year's topic
as well.
I just want to mention that thetopic of this year's forum, or
the theme, is the essential roleof the local church in
discipling nations, which isreally bread and butter for us,

(02:49):
uh, but a topic I'm excited tocome back to and really dig our
roots into for for those days atthe forum.
Um, if you guys would like, ifyou guys have been invited to
the forum, uh, I would uh yes,it is invitation only.
That's right, Luke Go ahead yeah.
Yeah, if you, if you did receivethat invitation email.
We've sent out a couple of them.
Now We'd just like to encourageyou guys to make sure to go on

(03:10):
to our websitedisciplenationsorg slash form
2025, and make sure to registeras soon as possible so that we
can really start getting aheadcount for who's coming.
And then also, yeah, like yousaid, dad, it is invitation only
.
However, we might not have yourcontact information yet.
If you're newer to the DiscipleNations Alliance, if you've

(03:32):
listened to this podcast for thepast couple of years, but you
we for some reason haven't beenable to collect your contact
information and you would liketo go to the forum, you can
request an invitation.
And to do that again, just goto disciplenationsorg slash form
2025.
And on that page you'll clearlysee a section that and a link

(03:53):
on the section where you can goand submit a request form to get
an invitation for the form.
So, again, if you're newer tothe Disciple Nations Alliance,
that is where you can go and geton the invitation list.

Dwight, why don't you just say a couple words
about why you think it'simportant to go to a forum?
What do people really benefitfrom or gain from attending
these events?

DwightVogt (04:19):
Oh my, I think if you understand well, if you
appreciate the topic ofworldview and its impact on life
, and you highly love thebiblical worldview and its own
effect in your own life, youwill enjoy being around people
who love the same topic and talkabout it.
It's a great place to go justto meet other people who are

(04:39):
like-minded.

Yeah, a great time of fellowship and learning.
Such an encouraging time.
I always walk away just soincredibly encouraged.
The stories that you're goingto hear are going to blow your
mind of just what God is doingin nations around the world,
with people who are disciplingtheir nations through the power
of biblical truth.
So again, you're invited.
Or if you're a regular I wouldsay real regular listener, real

(05:02):
actively involved in the podcast, and you want to go to the
forum, go to that website, Luke,what is it?
One more time.

Luke Allen (05:09):
It's on our website, disciplenationsorg, and then
the special pages just slash,forum backslash 2025,.
But I've also just included thelink to that page in the
description of this episode soyou guys can just find that
right there on the podcast appyou're listening on and that's
where you're going to be able totake some next steps.

So with that, let's go on with our show.
Today, we're thrilled to haveback on the show one of our dear
friends, Jeff Myers, thepresident of Summit Ministries.
Jeff, great to have you back.
Thank you.

Jeff Myers (05:42):
Scott, I love these conversations.
I imagine if y all were inColorado we'd be sitting around
on the back deck and chattingabout all kinds of important
things and having a good timeand there might or might not be
a cigar present.
I'm not going to make a claim.
One way or the other I wouldlove a cigar actually.

It's been a while.
You know what, jeff.
Yeah, we so enjoy having youand I love the—that's why we
like to do these podcasts,because it is kind of that
opportunity it's just let'scatch up.
What are you thinking, what'shappening, and especially with
somebody as thoughtful as youare, jeff, who's put—you know
just, you have so much to share.
Let me just give a quickintroduction for our listeners

(06:20):
who may be new to our podcastand haven't heard of you, jeff,
before.
Jeff is president, as I said, ofSummit Ministries, one of the
premier biblical worldviewtraining ministries in the world
.
Based in Colorado, summit hastrained thousands of young
people and youth to know and tolove biblical truth and to
champion a biblical worldview.

(06:42):
Jeff is a doctor.
He has his PhD in philosophyfrom the University of Denver
and he's a prolific author.
He has written 18 books.
That's amazing, jeff, and hismost recent books include titles
like Truth Changes Everything,how People of Faith Can
Transform the World in Times ofCrisis, and the book we're going

(07:10):
to talk about today.
We've been wanting to have youon and talk about this for some
time now, jeff, but it justseems like this topic is still
just leading the headlines inour own country and around the
world.
The topic of your book isShould Christians Support Israel
?
Of your book is ShouldChristians Support Israel
Seeking a Biblical Worldview inan Impossible Situation.
That was released last yearafter you took a trip to Israel,

(07:33):
jeff, to see just what washappening in the wake of the
horrific October attacks fromHamas.
Why don't you begin, Jeff, ifyou don't mind, just talking a
little bit about that and whatled you to make the trip and to
write the book?

Jeff Myers (07:49):
Well, scott.
Thank you for the question.
I've never written on foreignpolicy issues, I've never
written on anything like thatbefore and I wasn't intending to
, but after the October 7thterrorist attacks, I began to
follow the polls about what GenZers were thinking about the
issue.
That's the group I'm mainlyreaching out to.

(08:10):
We work with 70,000 young GenZers every single year, and we
do that through intensivecurriculum, courses and programs
, and so I really try to stay upwith what people are thinking,
who are, say, between the agesof 18 and 24.
We found in December of 2023that 60 percent of those between

(08:34):
18 and 24 said they thoughtHamas's attacks on Israel were
justified because of Palestiniangrievances.
What was the percent, jeff?

60 percent Of young people coming to summit
ministries for biblicalworldview training.
No, no of young people ingeneral in the United States of
America.
Oh, young people in general,yeah, thank, you for clarifying.

Jeff Myers (08:53):
The 60 percent of young adults thought that Hamas
was justified.
This was in December, remember.
This is after all of theevidence came out about Hamas's.
This is after all of theevidence came out about Hamas's
rape and torture and murder ofinnocent men, women and children
.
So everybody knew exactly whathad taken place, but 60% were

(09:14):
saying no, israel is at fault.
Hamas was justified in doingthis.
I was upset.
I wrote an opinion piece for theDaily Wire and it was called
Congratulations, america, you'veRaised a Generation of
Terrorist Sympathizers.
Wow.
And that got a lot of attentionpositive and negative.

(09:35):
But it led to an opportunity tojoin a small group of leaders
100 days after the war began,after Hamas's attack, to go to
Israel and to go to the war zoneand find out what really took
place, to talk to people who hadlost family members, talk to

(09:55):
people who were relatives ofhostages, talk to people in the
military, people who were peaceactivists, people on the right,
people on the left, jewishpeople, arab people,
palestinians, everybody inbetween.
And I came back and realizedAmericans don't really think
that much about Israel.
We sort of, in general, thinkIsrael's good, more good than

(10:18):
bad but we just don't reallycare and I felt like Christians
need to be thinking about this,and it was an issue that seemed
intractable.
I mean, if you want to reallyhave a debate in a lot of
churches, you throw the topic ofIsrael out onto the table and
you'll find there are widelydivergent views in the church,

(10:39):
and so that's kind of what we'redrawn to.
It may seem very masochistic,but if there's a really tough
issue that people need to learnto grapple with from a biblical
worldview, that's the issue thatwe decide to tackle.

So there's a couple of things, jeff.
One is you mentioned at thevery end there the divergent
views on Israel or the Jews inthe church, and then, of course,
you talk about the thing that'sbroader than that, just what's
happening in the culture 60% ofyoung people being sympathetic
to Hamas, feeling like Hamas wasreally the victims in this

(11:15):
relationship with Israel andtherefore were justified in that
attack.
The broader thing that'shappening in the culture is the
thing that continues to justshock and surprise me.
I mean, you know, just lastweek we were Harvard, was in the
news, just in this kind ofshowdown with the Trump
administration about pullingfunds, federal funds, and
largely it has to do with, as Iunderstand it, strong

(11:40):
anti-Semitism.
You know that exists not justthere, but at a lot of our elite
universities.
Anti-semitism you know thatexists not just there but at a
lot of our elite universities.
So this is just continuing tobe an issue.
Those are two different thingswe could talk about.
I want to talk about them bothactually, maybe quickly, just to
focus on the Church here.

(12:00):
For a second, jeff, if we couldyou talk about divergent views
in the evangelical or theBible-believing church, could
you just give us a brief kindof—before you were on.
I thought you did a nice job oftalking about kind of a road
with two ditches on either sideand you can kind of easily go
off into these ditches.

(12:21):
Would you mind just explainingthat?
I thought that was very helpful.

Jeff Myers (12:24):
Sure what that road looks like and why.

you think you know maybe some backing on, you know,
biblical backing on what youthink that balanced position is,
yeah, yeah.

Jeff Myers (12:33):
If I had to summarize where the Church is on
this issue, as well as a lot ofissues, I'd go back to Francis
Schaeffer's idea of twolevels—people view two levels of
reality.
They have their romantic upperstory view and then they have
their practical, scientific,lower story view.
So people tend to take theirtheology and put it on the upper

(12:54):
level.
This is what I believe, this ishow I feel.
I don't ask questions aboutthis, I just feel it and then
they have their regular life.
This is my politics and all myscientific understanding.
All that stuff is on the lowerlevel.
Of course, schaeffer's pointwas that's a false distinction.
There isn't an upper story anda lower story.
It's all one reality.

(13:15):
But most Christians still arein a place.
When they look at issues likeIsrael, they instinctively
divide the question to two partswhat does my theology say about
it and what do I believepolitically or economically
about it?
And those two things are notrelated to one another.
I just came back from speakingat a college as I was fielding

(13:35):
student questions.
I was on a couple of questions.
I was lost.
I was like, as a Christian, youdon't care about the political
aspect of this or the economicaspect.
You don't see how that flowsfrom your faith.
They were only looking at ittheologically.
Students had a lot oftheological training and good
theological training, but theydidn't see the bigger picture of

(13:56):
how what you believe about Godwill ultimately affect what you
believe about reality, what youbelieve about society, what
makes a good political structure, economic structure, legal
structure and so forth.
So where do Christians fall onthis?
Well, it's like a ridge.
I'm thinking of about one milefrom Garden of the Gods.
You know those big fins thatstick up and they're 300 feet

(14:17):
high, these rock fins.
You can walk along the top ofthem, but it's pretty narrow and
you could easily fall off toone side or fall off to the
other side down into a chasm.
The narrow road is what we'retrying to understand.
What is a biblical view ofIsrael?
Now, I believe Christians, theycan fall off one side or the

(14:39):
other.
They can fall off on one sideby saying, well, I have no idea,
I guess God saves the Jews evenwithout Jesus.
People on the other side falloff and say the Jews are
irrelevant to anything now thatwe have the Church.
Okay.
So you see, one side says well,the Jews, I guess, because I
feel good about them, get to bein the Church.
The other side says the Jewsare replaced by the Church and

(15:04):
people call it replacementtheology, or supersessionism, is
what they talk about inseminaries.
So how do you maintain thatnarrow focus to say Jesus is the
only source of salvation?
How Jesus will save Jewishpeople is a mystery, just like
it's a mystery how Jesus savedme.

(15:24):
But to say that because of theChurch, jews are replaced,
that's where a lot of people aretoday.
Like you know, jewish peopleare irrelevant.

Do you think that's , of the two views you're just
describing, the larger of thetwo, the more kind of common
prevalent in the church?

Jeff Myers (15:45):
It's going to depend on what church you go to.
If you go to an evangelicalchurch that is dispensationalist
, you're going to find a verypositive view of Israel.
But the positive view of Israel, I mean, there's a little bit
of a negative aspect to it.
You know, it's the Jews comingback to the land that will

(16:06):
trigger the end times.
You know, and I hate tooversimplify that, but that's
essentially what it comes downto.

The real interest is in the end times and the
return of Jesus.
The real interest is in the endtimes.

Jeff Myers (16:17):
So therefore, we're interested in Israel.
On the other side, a lot ofpeople look back at individuals
like Martin Luther and JohnCalvin and the Reformers, and so
their views about Israel seemto be the basis of people's
views today.
Well, the trick is that MartinLuther and John Calvin treated

(16:40):
Israel as if it was a spiritualmetaphor, because at that time
the nation of Israel had beendisintegrated.
Now the new Israel has comeinto existence, 1948.
I believe that it's the thirdincarnation of the nation of
Israel.
Other people say no, it's notrelevant.

(17:05):
It's not the same thing as theancient Israel.
It's a new political state.
That's not the same thing.
And if it were the same thing,then people like Luther and
Calvin would have mentioned it.
Well, they didn't, because itdidn't exist in their time.
I think we have to grapple withthe realization that the modern
state of Israel is, in the mindsof people who established it,

(17:32):
the reconstituting of a nationthat goes back 3,600 years.
It is that's, I guess, the pointof contention that a lot of
people have.
So they say well, my theologysays that God replaced the Jews
with the Church.
Therefore, the modern state ofIsrael is not relevant, and that
mindset assumes that Israel isonly a spiritual metaphor and

(17:58):
therefore it discounts anythingthat's happening in the land now
.
But if you talk to Jews whowere there and, by the way,
Israel was established as asecular, socialist paradise,
that's what people thought itwould be, and it turned out that
the way they set up the lawsabout the laws of return and so
forth, that it ended up being50% religious Jews in Israel,

(18:24):
and so it didn't end up being asecular paradise, and these
Jewish people ended up beingvery entrepreneurial and
technologically savvy and sothey became extraordinarily
gifted capitalists.
So now it's not a socialistparadise either.
So the left is now totallyturned against Israel.
And it's just it seems likeit's just a few people in

(18:48):
evangelical churches who,because of their end times
belief, support Israel, who arenow the friends of Jewish people
and their defenders in theUnited States.
So that's probably too brash ofa steamroller kind of summary,
but there it is.

So, jeff, there's the two views and you're
explaining one of them, kind ofthe replacement view, and these
would include people.
If you thought that way, israeldoesn't really matter today.
It's been replaced by thechurch.
As the people of God, jewishpeople, you know, I guess they
can come to faith in Jesus andbe part of that new people of

(19:26):
God, new community.
But the people, the ethnicpeople of Israel, the state of
Israel doesn't really count.
And I hear some people saythings like just treat them just
like Mormons or Jehovah'sWitnesses.
They just are people that havea completely false and mistaken
view of things.
I hear that Now, would that bekind of consistent with what

(19:51):
you're describing there, or isthat view?

Jeff Myers (19:53):
do you think, in the church here we're talking, when
Jews are just treated asirrelevant yeah, kind of
irrelevant, or at worst, youknow, just kind of like a false
religion.
Yeah, well, it gets fractured.
Because who are the Jewishpeople?
Is this just a religion?
And what about, then?

(20:15):
Jews who aren't religious?
Well, if it is, is it acultural set of beliefs?
Is it a history?
Is it genetic?
Because there are people from103 different nations who are
Jews living in Israel, speaking85 different languages.
It doesn't look anything likethe categories that the left or
the right usually likes to putthings into, and it's also a

(20:39):
democracy, and a vibrant one.
I mean vibrant in quotes.
There are 55 political partiesin Israel 9 million people, 55
political parties.
15 of them have seats in theKnesset.
The majority party, the Likudparty, the party of Benjamin
Netanyahu, only has 32 seats outof 120.

(21:00):
So they have to form coalitionswith other groups just to be
able to rule.
It's amazing that anything atall ever gets done there, but
it's a place where men and womenare equally regarded.
You're equally regarded whetheryou're a Christian or a Jew or
a Muslim.
You can be a citizen.
They're citizens who are, inall of those places, citizens

(21:23):
who serve in their legislativebody.
So it isn't easily categorized.

Yeah, well, that's it.
I mean I think this gets—tobegin to have a kind of coherent
discussion on this topic at all.
You have to kind of begin tokind of draw some boundaries and
categorize things a little bit,or else it just gets so
confusing.
So, because even here you'retalking about, like an Israeli
citizen, a citizen of the nationstate of Israel, that may not

(21:49):
even be a Jew, they may beChristian Muslim, whatever they
are, but they just happen to bea citizen of the nation, the
nation state of Israel, thatwould be one bucket citizen of
Israel, regardless of yourbeliefs.
Another would be Jew.

(22:13):
But Jew doesn't necessarilymean bloodlines, as you were
saying.
Right, I mean, probablymajority come from the 12 tribes
of Israel, can trace theirlineage back that way.
But some, like, come from the12 tribes of Israel, can trace
their lineage back that way, butsome come from Ethiopia.
They're religiously Jewish butthey're not bloodline Jews.
Right, I mean, help me out.
I sometimes struggle myself withthese different categories, and
so when you're talking itbecomes very confusing then,
because you may be just jumpingfrom one category to the next

(22:35):
and it becomes hard to even havea discussion.

Jeff Myers (22:38):
That's such a great point, scott.
This is when I talk withstudents about this.
I have to clarify with them Now, are you talking about the
state of Israel or are youtalking about Jewish people as a
group?
Because you're going back andforth and talking about these
things.
It's very common.

So if we could, you know like there's kind of three
broad categories maybe there'smore that you could flesh out
but there's kind of big ones.
These are some big ones.
Let's just get someclarification.
How would you describe that?

Jeff Myers (23:03):
Yeah, you bet, let's start with a Jewish person as a
potential Israeli.
They're people who do have aright of return because of their
Jewish heritage.
Heritage 25% of those.
So it would be bloodline.
25% of those so would be.
It would be bloodline.
25 of those people live inisrael right now.
25 of those.

(23:23):
If you use that definition ofjew, 25 of those people live in
israel at the present timeethnic 75 scattered around the
world.
Okay, but when you talk withjewish people, they clarify that
they're that this isn't just areligion, a belief that they
hold.
It's a set of culturalpractices and it is also a

(23:45):
history or a memory.
You take all of those thingsand put them together.
The only way to reallyunderstand Jewishness as a
category is to go back to theTorah, the first five books of
the Bible.
And when you do, you read thebook of Deuteronomy and you
realize, oh well, modern Israelviews their basic law

(24:06):
essentially as the book ofDeuteronomy.
They see themselves as a nationwith a divine constitution, the
book of Deuteronomy.
All of a sudden, you think,okay, this is not like other
nations of the world, this isactually a Jewish state.
Now, in America we don't feeltoo comfortable with that
because we don't think that onenation can be a religion, but

(24:28):
there are a lot of people whodisagree with that.
There are 57 nations in theworld that are members of the
Islamic Organization Conferenceconference and one Jewish state
in the world, 57 Islamic states,uh, you know, so that I may
even make it more confusing, butwhen people think about Israel,

(24:50):
I want them to think about umJewish people individually, as
people made in the image of God,who God wants to redeem.
Uh, who and God?
And through whom God is working.
In the image of God, who Godwants to redeem and through whom
God is working in the world.
I want them to think of thecovenant that God established
with Abraham.
By the way, abraham, when youlook at the people who were

(25:13):
brought into faith in thehousehold of Abraham, it wasn't
just Abraham's family, it wasall of his men.
In the household of Abraham, itwasn't just Abraham's family,
it was all of his men.
So they were not related byblood to Abraham and yet they
were circumcised and broughtinto the family of God.
So you can't just say onlypeople who are direct
descendants of Abraham count.

(25:35):
So I don't know.
I feel like I made it even moreconfusing.

I think that no, but it's an important point.
Our pastor was talking aboutthis yesterday and made that
same point.
He said what saved somebody inthe Old Testament Was it the
fact that they were ethnicallyJewish?
And he said no, it was.
They were saved by faith.
And there's no differencebetween the Old Testament and
the New Testament in that regard.

(25:59):
They're saved by faith andhumble belief in God, and he
used Rahab as an example of that, who wasn't an ethnic Jew, but
was grafted in, if you will,because of her faith in God and
then became one of theforefathers of Jesus.

Jeff Myers (26:12):
That's exactly right .
Yeah Well, also Galatians,chapter 3, the Apostle Paul, is
super clear that God announcedthe gospel in advance to Abraham
.

Yes.

Jeff Myers (26:25):
And that gospel was.
And Paul says this it couldhardly be clearer.
I mean, there are some peoplewho say, okay, yeah, some of the
Apostle Paul's writings are alittle thick.
This one's straightforward Godannounced the gospel in advance
to Abraham.
I will bless you and throughyou, all nations of the earth
will be blessed.
So I think maybe a consistentChristian position today would
say that God has used the churchto universalize the covenant

(26:52):
that God made with the Jews backthrough Abraham.
Maybe that's a way to sort ofwalk that narrow ridge.
Okay, I see.

Wow, it still raises a lot of questions in my
mind and, like you say, maybewe'll just have to pick it up at
another podcast, because Ithink, before you can say what
is the proper, christian,theologically, biblically
correct or accurate response ofChristians towards Jews, you
can't even begin to answer thatquestion without describing what
you're talking about when youtalk about Jews.
And, as we said, there's somany different ways of kind of

(27:25):
understanding that.
So it has to kind of startthere, and this is where I feel
like I've still got to do somehomework on my own part.
But, luke and Dwight, I'd kindof like to bring you in too and
maybe we can move from kind ofviews in the Church towards the
Jews to what's happening in thebroader culture.
I wouldn't mind just kind offocusing in on that, because of
course the broader cultureaffects us as Christians as well

(27:47):
.
We're not immune or separated.
We tend to absorb whatever youknow kind of ideas are out there
in the broader culture on thesethings.
Again, dwight, luke, feel freeto just jump in because I'm kind
of dominating here, but uh, youtalk about, um jeff, something
called, uh, theo, politicalversus geopolitical in this

(28:08):
discussion.
Could you explain that a littlebit, just those terms, what
you're meaning by that?
What is theo?
I know I have a sense ofgeopolitical, but what's
theopolitical?

Jeff Myers (28:18):
And how does that relate to this discussion?
And you're a word guy, so Ilove your book on words.
By the way, I've told you thatbefore.

It's fantastic.
Thanks for endorsing it.

Jeff Myers (28:28):
It meant the world to me, so yeah, the term
theopolitical is not in thedictionary.
The term geopolitical is in thedictionary, so let's start with
that one.
Geopolitical means thepolitical relationship to the
land.
The geopolitical aspect ofisrael would be should we have

(28:50):
two states instead of just one?
Should there be a palestinianstate?
Should we make the jewishsettlers who are in West Bank
leave?
Should we give a little moreland to the Palestinians who
live in the West Bank or Gaza?
It always has to do with theland.
The problem is Americans tend tothink that if you can just make

(29:14):
a deal related to the land,then you'll have peace.
You give a little bit of land,you get peace in return.
That doesn't really explainwhat is happening there.
There have been manyPalestinian state offers on the
table, four of them that I know,of 1947, 1967, 2000, and 2008.

(29:38):
Maybe there were others.
Those are four that I'm awareof, and in all four of those
situations, the Palestinianleaders walked away from the
opportunity to form their ownnation.
Why did they walk away?
For geopolitical reasonsBecause they turned right around
and had an intifada, suicidebombings, rocket attacks and so
forth, and tens of thousands ofpeople died on both sides.

(30:03):
Are you telling me that theywere willing to sacrifice tens
of thousands of lives to get afew more acres of land.
I can't possibly believe that.
So I don't think of theconflict as primarily
geopolitical.
If it's not geopolitical, whatis it?
I think it's theopolitical.
I think it goes back to how weunderstand our political
relationships in terms of ourunderstanding of God.

(30:27):
So what you see in the MiddleEast today is largely a battle
between a Judeo-Christianworldview and an Islamic
worldview.
Not that most Muslims in theworld would be terrorists
they're not but there will be asubgroup in Islam we call them
Islamists who believe that thecommand to commit jihad is a

(30:52):
military command.
But all Muslims everywherebelieve that everybody who has
ever been born was born a Muslim.
If you're not a Muslim now,it's because you are in
rebellion against God, and theway to be reconciled to God is
not through a person.
Remember Muslims don't believethat you can know God personally

(31:13):
.
You only know God's law.
The way to be reconciled to Godis through jihad.
Only know God's law.
The way to be reconciled to Godis through jihad.
It's mentioned dozens of timesI counted 60-some-plus in the
Quran, times where jihad ismentioned.
It's always mentioned in awarlike sense and it means to
compel people to resubmitthemselves to God, as the Quran

(31:35):
prescribes.
So that's the Islamic view.
The Judeo-Christian view ismuch more.

Luke Allen (31:56):
Hey everyone, thanks again for joining us today.
I just wanted to let you knowthat our Global DNA Forum is
coming up this summer, fromAugust 4th through the 8th in
sunny Panama City, Panama.
This summer, from August 4ththrough the 8th in sunny Panama
City, Panama.
Our forums are a special timeof gathering for our DNA
Kingdomizers, trainers andpractitioners from around the
world, who come together tospend some time worshiping,
sharing stories and learningfrom one another.

(32:18):
This year's particular theme atthe forum is the essential role
of the local church indiscipling nations.
If you have already receivedyour invitation but have not
registered yet, then please doso as soon as you can.
The registrations will beclosing in a few weeks and we
need to get that final headcountas soon as possible.
If you've already registered,then thank you.

(32:38):
We can't wait to see you downthere in Panama.
For those of you who did notreceive an invitation in your
inbox.
This is an invitation only event, but we may not know you yet or
have your contact information.
So if you're someone who's newto the movement maybe you're a
regular listener to the podcasthere, or you've read one or two
of the books or you are takingone of our courses, such as the

(33:00):
Kingdomizer 101, then we wouldlove to connect with you.
And if who I'm describingsounds like you, then you can
request an invitation to thisyear's forum by emailing us over
at info at disciplenationsorg.
Again, our email is info atdisciplenationsorg, and just ask
us to send you over theinvitation request form and once

(33:22):
you fill that out and submit it, we will read through all of
those and see if we can makeroom for you at this special
event.
That's it for today, guys.
Thanks again for listening tothis podcast and we look forward
to seeing some of you guys downthere in Panama this summer,
from August 4th through 8th.
To wrap up, here's what ourguest, catherine Gallagher, had
to say about this book, and Iquote Whoever controls language

(33:44):
and its meanings controlsculture.
This important book is awake-up call to return to the
true meaning of words andunderstand their value and
impact on culture.
End quote Again the book'scalled Ten Words to Heal Our
Broken World and you can learnmore about it at tenwordsbookorg
.
Again, that is tenwordsbookorg,and on that webpage you can

(34:05):
also learn more about theopinion of the last seven years.

Jeff Myers (34:19):
More of a politically a republic-oriented
view.
You look back at the Hebrewsand they had a leader but not a
king.
They had a legislative system,so to speak.
They had rulers of the tens, ofthe fifties, of the hundreds of
the thousands.
They had a court system.
We have the whole book ofLeviticus giving us, you know

(34:39):
little tagline, one sentence ortwo sentence, descriptions of
hundreds of different courtdecisions that their court made.
And so it looked like arepublic, so much so that Eric
Nelson from Harvard University,a political science professor,
wrote about the Hebrew Republicand said it was the model the
founders of the United Statesconsidered.

(35:01):
A lot of people know thatScripture was quoted more by the
founders than all other sourcesput together.
But they don't quite understandwhy.
What they were trying to get atis what was the nature of the
Hebrew Republic that God gave tothe Hebrews, and how can we
make something in our country tobe successful like that?

I've heard that and I've been kind of convinced by
that same argument that Israelwas really—the nation of Israel.
The ancient nation of Israelwas the birth of the nation that
we understand today.
It got lost during the RomanEmpire but then it was kind of
recovered after the Bible wasopened through the Reformation
this idea of nation.
But prior, going back toancient Israel, you had tribes

(35:42):
and clans, families, and thenyou had empires right, egypt,
you know but you didn't havenation.
Nation was kind of thisuniquely, this unique thing that
came out of Israel and thosetraditions and histories that
you're talking about there, withMoses and the law and you know.

DwightVogt (36:02):
So I think that is a kind of a very interesting so,
Jeff, if you had to summarizethis, the theopolitical position
between Islam and the Jew, whatwould be the major difference?
I mean, why would they fightover it?
You said it, but why?

Jeff Myers (36:18):
are they fighting it ?
So Islam fights against Judaismfor a number of reasons.
One of them is economic.
There is an enormous amount ofenvy of Jews around the world

(36:41):
and of the nation of Israel, thesame kind of envy that Adolf
Hitler wrote about in his bookMein Kampf.
That book, by the way, washanded out by the case by people
like Yasser Arafat, who was theguy who organized Palestinians
into a political force.

(37:01):
It is still a popular booktoday.
There are conspiracy theoriesagainst Jews that are so widely
believed in the Middle East,like blood, libel views and so
forth, that there's nocompromise.

(37:22):
Why would that be?
Well, the Quran was written.
It was all collected togetherand then sequenced
chronologically, and it'sconsidered by Islamic scholars
that the latter passages aremore revelatory than the prior
passages.
Muhammad became increasinglyangry and warlike in his latter

(37:47):
years and began to say thingslike slaughter the Jews wherever
you find them.
So to Islamists, these peoplewho are sometimes called
fundamentalists.
They believe that thecontinuing existence of the Jews
is a form of rebellion againstAllah.

(38:08):
That is a stain on theirreputation and prevents them
from genuinely ruling the worldas they believe they ought.

Do you think that view describes a majority of
people, let's say the Hamasfaction that's kind of at the
center of this?

Jeff Myers (38:27):
That view describes 100, say, the Hamas faction.
That's kind of at the center ofthis.
That view describes a hundredpercent of Hamas.
So Hamas is.
I mean, these are pretty welleducated people.
They came out of the Muslimbrotherhood.
They've written everything out.
They don't hide it.
There's a charter that waswritten up when Hamas was first
formed.
They rewrote and reissued thecharter in 2017.
You can find it on the internetand read it.

(38:48):
They believe that the state ofIsrael's existence must be
eliminated in order for thePalestinian people generally and
, more broadly, Muslims aroundthe world, to be free.
They appeal to Umar, which isthe global community of Muslims,

(39:08):
and say the Palestinian causeis the central cause of Umar.
Now this is where it gets alittle weird, because Iran is
made up of Shia Muslims.
They are many of them alsoradicalized.
They also want Israel to ceaseto exist.
They hate Sunni Muslims andHamas is made up of Sunni

(39:33):
Muslims, but they have commoncause standing against Israel.
They've got a common enemy.
Yeah, they have a common enemy,and so you're now seeing a
collapsing of the distinctionbetween Shia and Sunni in all of
these various armies thatsurround Israel and want to
destroy it.
Can I ask one more?

DwightVogt (39:52):
question Scott, yeah go ahead, I'm gonna jump ahead.
So you just described thetheological conflict and what
you see is between.
Islam and Israel.
What's the conflict between theWest and the Jew?
The anti-Semitism?
It's not rooted in Islam andthem being an obstacle to Islam.

Jeff Myers (40:17):
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
So I'm going to take someguesses here.
When I went to school, all theway bachelor's degree, master's
degree, PhD there was a growingfascination with a postmodern
approach to the world, andpostmodernism, when it comes to

(40:41):
geopolitics, is reflectedthrough a kind of thinking, a
strain of postmodernism, thatfocuses on what's called settler
colonialism, that it is thesettlers in a nation who damage
the indigenous people and bringupon themselves a level of guilt

(41:04):
for which they can only atoneby overthrowing their
democratically elected officialsand their capitalist government
and becoming Marxists, Just toput a fine point on it.
That's how you atone.
So I don't know if you go tothese kinds of meetings that I
end up going to.
When I go to a university,they'll always begin a public

(41:28):
lecture with a landacknowledgement.
This land was originallypossessed by such and such an
Indian tribe and we just want toacknowledge that.
They have absolutely nointention of giving the land
back.
Okay, Even if there's alegitimate claim, they're never
going to give it back.
It almost.
But see, to me it looks likegloating.

(41:50):
You know, they're standing upin front of every meeting and
saying we won, you lost.
We just want to acknowledgethat.
But what they think they'redoing is publicly atoning for
their guilt.
Why does it have to be public?
Well, if there's no truth,there's no God.
You don't repent to God foryour sins, you don't go to a

(42:11):
priest and have a confession, oryou don't talk to a pastor and
pray together for God to removeyour sins from you.
What you do instead is publiclyact out, because that shows
that you're a virtuous person,and people call it virtue
signaling.

But it's for real or becoming an ally, right it's?

Jeff Myers (42:31):
exactly right.
Yeah, that's why people youknow they'll go to a protest not
because they really care aboutthe cause, but because they can
take a selfie of them there andthen be seen as a virtuous
person.
Yes, okay, so this gets back toyour question, dwight.
Sorry, one more, just to kindof tie the thoughts together.
So leftist progressives in theUnited States hate the United

(42:56):
States.
They want it to be destroyed,but they don't think that's a
realistic goal.

And Jeff, just to get on that, because, because
they're part of that oppressor,colonizer group over the
indigenous people, Right andthat's right.
Everything on this view.
I totally agree with whatyou're saying, Jeff.
You understand it when you seethis very simplistic view that
divides everyone between thesetwo groups.
You're either on the side ofoppressors, colonizers or their
victims.

(43:19):
You're right.

Jeff Myers (43:22):
So why Israel?
Because it's possible.
It's a little country way overthere.
We don't care about thosepeople, so if they end up
getting destroyed, that's okay.
You know, we should have takena stand hundreds of years ago
against settler colonialism andwe didn't.
So now we're going to atone byhaving a sacrificial lamb, and
that sacrificial lamb will beIsrael.

(43:44):
I think, Dwight, that's whypeople in the West are
anti-Semitic today.

Yeah, and there's the element of common cause,
which is why you see thesefar-left progressives making
common cause with Hamas.
It's not that they share muchin terms of their worldview, but
they've got a common enemy, soto speak.
Right, Exactly.

DwightVogt (44:03):
What's interesting, and you probably don't know,
that anti-Semitism has umpresent throughout the ages,
since the beginning, and yet youjust gave a reason for the last
10 years.
Yeah, but it's, it's not.
I mean, this may be the newwrinkle, but it's always been.
That's just.
You don't have to comment.

Jeff Myers (44:24):
But no, I I can comment.
I'd be happy to comment.
The spirit of the age always isanti-Semitic, but the spirit of
the age has been different indifferent ages.
There was a period of timewhere it was dominantly Muslims
who were persecuting Jews.
There was a period of timewhere it was dominantly
Christians who were persecutingJews.

(44:44):
It was a period in time inhistory where it was Egyptians
persecuting Jews.
It was a period in time wheresecular eugenicists like Adolf
Hitler and people in the UnitedStates who thought you could
purify the race were the onespersecuting Jews.
Now it seems to be persecution,ironically at the hands of a

(45:04):
human rights regime that issupposed to stand up for
marginalized people but insteadfinds clever ways to oppress
those who aren't politicallyfavored so what's your thoughts
on why?

DwightVogt (45:17):
why throughout the ages?

Jeff Myers (45:22):
hatred of god, yeah, and of his word.
I totally agree with that.
The.

Luke Allen (45:25):
God of the desert, as Hitler wrote, but why not
Christians then also?
To me it seems like there's anextra hatred Is that true Hatred
of Jews by Christians?

Jeff Myers (45:40):
No, why don't?

we see the same level of hatred against.
Christians, although I think,luke, you do.
I mean, we see persecution, youknow really on the rise.

DwightVogt (45:52):
I do think we kind of trail Jews.
And what country you live in.

Jeff Myers (46:00):
Yeah, I think it's a really great question.
Luke, you know I've beenfollowing some of the groups
that look at persecution.
There's actually an annualreport that comes out about
persecution of Christians inparticular, and in their recent
report they said 360 millionChristians in the world are at
imminent risk of persecution atthe present time.
So we don't see it happening inthe United States.
You might get some cross wordsif you live here, but you're not

(46:25):
probably going to be crosswords if you live here, but
you're not probably going tohave your family killed in front
of you because of your faith,as you might in some places that
I've been to in Africa orpossibly in the Middle East, or
even in some remote areas inAsia.

Yeah, at the same time, jeff, the real picture
that we're facing right now inthe West, in the United States.
It seems like before we got onthe air you were talking about
the hockey stick.
The prevalence of anti-Semitismis really on the rise right now
in kind of alarming ways, evenin very recent years.
You're right, dwight, this hasbeen with us from time

(47:06):
immemorial.
But I do want to kind of saywhat's going on now and how do
we respond now as people wholove God and are trying to be
obedient to biblical truth.

Luke Allen (47:21):
Yeah, I'd love to hear some application steps here
, as we're running low on time,but yeah, how should Christians
respond?
There's something we should bedoing right now, especially with
this real increase.

Maybe you could talk about both of those, jeff
the increase that you're seeing,and then how do we respond in
the moment here to that?

Jeff Myers (47:39):
anti-semitic hate crimes are at their highest
level since the run-up to worldwar ii.
In the united states of americathere's an anti-semitic,
anti-jewish hate crime takingplace every hour of every day,
all year long.

There were 9 000, some recorded last year 9 000
and there's no other groupthat's facing this kind of
hatred and persecution in theUnited States.
This level right Doesn't seemto be.
Yeah.

Jeff Myers (48:06):
Doesn't seem to be any other group that's facing it
this intensely Right.
So what should Christians do?
I think one is we should carefor the truth.
We need to discern thepropaganda that is leading to
this kind of anti-Semitism andexpose it.
Second thing, I believe that weneed to see Jewish people as

(48:26):
our brothers and sisters, peoplewho are worthy of protection.
Maybe there were Christians inthe past who didn't step up.
We know, certainly in therun-up to World War II, the
United States of America had theopportunity to help Jewish
people and would not do it.
Now we have the opportunity tonot make that same mistake.
I think another thing is torecognize that there is a

(48:52):
political and an economic aspectto every one of these issues.
Israel is so inventive that wecould I think you can actually
say George Gilder makes thiscase in a book called the Israel
Test.
Probably 25% of thetechnological innovation that
has allowed America to succeedso enormously and bring blessing
and prosperity to all thenations of the earth, 25% of it

(49:15):
can be traced directly back toJewish inventors and
entrepreneurs.
That there is something aboutthe good of the world that is
related to Jewish peoplethriving being a blessing to the
nations of the earth.
What do we do with Israel?
I don't think we automaticallysupport everything the state of
Israel does.

(49:36):
I'm an American.
I don't support everything theAmerican government does.
You have to be discerning aboutthat as well.
But overall, recognizing thatIsrael does have a right to
exist and that these claimsagainst it are based in a
postmodern settler, colonialistmindset that wants to destroy

(49:57):
capitalism, frankly is animportant thing for Christians
to recognize.
So those may be a few bulletpoints for us to work on.

Talk a little bit more about propaganda, jeff, how
are we seeing that today?
And Luke, I think in one ofyour questions you brought up
something that was interestingto me.
You talked about the efforts ofDoge, elon Musk's Doge, and how
much it's kind of uncovering interms of our own government,
kind of propagandizing againstisrael.

(50:28):
Is that what you were seeing,luke, there, or um?

Luke Allen (50:31):
yeah, that's.
That's just what I've heard is,as they're tracking the money,
they're realizing that there's alot of money going towards
busing people to protests.

Essentially on the on the part of our, our
government, paying non-profitsor whatever it is to do these
anti-Israel protests?

Luke Allen (50:44):
Yeah, they track some of the early pro-Hamas
protests right after October 7th.
I mean it's complicated becauseit's through nonprofits, right,
that whole stream of money butmore or less coming from the
government.

Jeff Myers (50:59):
Yeah, some of it's overt.
The United States has been thedominant supporter of a group
called UNRWA, which is the,which is in Gaza, presumably to
help Gazans thrive, but becameintertwined with Hamas in a way

(51:19):
that enabled them to do manyevil things.
In a way that enabled them todo many evil things, that was,
you know, america.
When Israel withdrew from Gazain 2005, they not only withdrew
their army, they told all of theJewish people who lived there
get out, and when they wouldn'tdo it, they bulldozed their

(51:41):
homes for 25,000 people becausethey were like we're out, we're
out out homes for 25,000 peoplebecause they were like we're out
, we're out out.
America immediately gave it wasa figure was $990 million to
Gaza to try to rebuild.
Other nations gave money torebuild.
I think the total ended upbeing something like $35 billion
, which is 15 times as muchmoney as it cost to rebuild

(52:03):
Europe after World War II.

Wow, what a perspective.

Jeff Myers (52:07):
And Hamas had a choice.
They were rising, they wereable to win an election and then
have a coup and kill everybodyin the opposition party so that
there's no competition.
They had a choice.
They could have essentiallybuilt the Riviera of the Middle
East, or they could buildtunnels and buy bombs and guns
and try to destroy Israel.

(52:28):
They made the choice to do thelatter because they don't care
about the good of the Gazans.
They want Israel to bedestroyed.
So, yes, so what happens in theUnited States is there are a
lot of people who want Israeldestroyed.
They believe that it has to bedestroyed, otherwise we can

(52:48):
never assuage our guilt for oursubtle or colonialist ways, and
so they hire protesters to comein and run these protests, and
all you have to do is look atthe signs the signs that are
professionally printed.
They always have a website atthe bottom.
Look at the website.
Who is it?
It's going to be some kind of asocialist group that thinks
that destroying Israel is key todestroying capitalism in order

(53:12):
to have a new socialist utopia.
There are other kinds of groups, but there's a very common
theme theme.
I started to look into this morewhen I found that there was an
actual PR firm called Crowds onDemand that you can hire and
they will hire protesters tolead protests and to even attend
protests on your behalf, andthey can sometimes do it for

(53:33):
publicity stunts.
But this company the owner,adam Swart, said he had more
than a hundred requests fromanti-Israel protests, had more
than a hundred requests fromanti-Israel protests, including,
he said, dozens of them thatwere lucrative.
This guy's you know this is amulti-million dollar firm.
When he says lucrative, I meanthere are big checks being put
on the table to hire him.

(53:54):
He said he didn't take any ofthem, but he was offered them.
There's a lot of money out thereand you know it comes from some
people like George Soros.
He gave the New York Post found$15 million to these various
anti-Israel groups.
So you know, when you start tolook at the flow of the money
like you're talking about Luke,you're going to end up with some

(54:16):
really uncomfortable realities.
The United States has beenplaying both sides of the ball
when it comes to Israel.
States has been playing bothsides of the ball when it comes
to Israel and it is anideological conflict in our own
country that we have yet toresolve because of a false
worldview that's being foistedon us.

Luke Allen (54:31):
Wow, crowds on demand.
Yeah, next time you have aspeaking engagement, dad, I'll
make sure to get some protestersout.

Yeah, would you put somebody in there for that?
That would be great.

Luke Allen (54:38):
They pay $46 an hour , luke for somebody to bring a
bullhorn, so that's a prettygood deal.

Well, hey my weekends are full now.
Oh boy, what a crazy time andcrazy world.
But, jeff, thanks for helpingus make some sense of it.
You just have such anincredible amount of knowledge
and wisdom about this.
We could continue this talk andmaybe we'll be able to do it,
but for now, I think we justneed to wrap up and let people
know how they can tap into someof your knowledge.

(55:05):
The book again is called ShouldChristians Support Israel
Seeking a Biblical Worldview inan Impossible Situation.
I highly recommend it.
Jeff.
Where's the best way for peopleto get their hands on that book
or for more information aboutyou or Summit Ministries?

Jeff Myers (55:20):
Our website is summitorg.
You can get all the informationthere.
You can direct any nasty gramsto the info at summitorg and
then you can get the book atsummitorg slash Israel.
You can get your copy of it.
It's been fun to see this Morethan 100,000 copies of the book
have been printed up by now.

(55:42):
And it's because people areordering them, by the case, to
give to their small group totalk about in their church and
so forth, and I hope that it'sled to a lot of really good
discussions.
And we want a biblicalworldview even on very difficult
topics.

Oh, absolutely, jeff.
I'm so grateful for you writingthis book and for helping so
many people.
It's great to hear that thebook is doing really well.
This is again a topic thatisn't fading right now.
It's just growing.
You know the intensity of thistopic, the intensity of the
persecution, what's happening onour college campuses, the
foment and then, of course, thediscussions in the church.

(56:21):
You know what do we think?
How do we make sense of this?
It's just there's such a needfor people to speak wisdom into
this right now.
So thanks for doing that, jeff,and for all your work with
Summit Ministries.
I highly recommend, if you haveyoung people or any interest at
all in just learning, goingdeeper in your own knowledge of
biblical worldview, check outSummit Ministries and the great

(56:42):
work that Jeff and his team aredoing.
Jeff, thanks again for takingtime to be with us today.
We're super grateful.

Jeff Myers (56:49):
I'm happy to be with you.
I always enjoy theseconversations and I would love
to come back some other time.
We can keep talking about thisor other issues.

We'll definitely take you up on it as you get
feedback, let me know whatpeople are thinking because I'm
engaging.

Jeff Myers (57:04):
I've done a lot of Q&A sessions and very difficult
Q&As.
No media question, no negativemedia person has ever asked me
as hard of a question as some ofthe Gen Zers have been asking
as we discuss this, and that'stotally fine with me.
I think that's great.
We want these difficult topicsto be brought to the forefront.

Absolutely, there's , yeah, those hard questions.
Ask the hard questions, but askwith a hunger to know the truth
and not just win, win debatingpoints here.
We want people who are reallyhungry for the truth.
All right, jeff, thanks, we'lllet you go, and I just want to
thank Luke.
Thank you, dwight, and all ofour listeners.

(57:47):
Again, thank you for tuninginto yet another episode of
Ideas have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.

Luke Allen (58:02):
Thank you for joining us for this discussion
with Catherine Gallagher fromover at Go Strategic.
As always, for more informationabout our guest and to find all
of the resources that wementioned during today's
discussion, and more, pleasevisit this episode's landing
page, which you'll see linked inthe show notes.
As a quick heads up, don't missour next few episodes, because
we have some fascinating new andreturning guests about to come

(58:26):
on the show, including Dr GeorgeBarna from the Cultural
Research Center, dr Jeff Myersfrom Summit Ministries and your
favorite, at least according tothe episode listenership Vishal
Mangawati, who is one of thefounding minds behind this
ministry, disciple NationsAlliance.
So, again, stay tuned for thoseepisodes, and an easy way to

(58:47):
make sure that you don't missthem is by following this show
on Apple Podcast, on Spotify orwherever you're listening right
now.
Thanks again for listening totoday's discussion with
Catherine Gallagher and we hopethat you're able to join us
again next week here on Ideashave Consequences.

All Episodes

Antisemitism & Should Christians Support Israel? | Dr. Jeff Myers

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Antisemitism & Should Christians Support Israel? | Dr. Jeff Myers