Bigger Than Our Boxes: How Biblical Worldview Transcends Theological Camps

In today's fragmented Christian landscape, tribal loyalties sometimes overshadow biblical truth. At Disciple Nations Alliance, we're frequently asked where we fit theologically. The answer? We don't wear a denominational jersey—and that's by design. In this episode, we unpack why choosing Scripture over systems isn't theological compromise but an emphasis on the heart of God's mission.

Rather than aligning with a single tradition, we stand on clear, foundational truths: Jesus is King, His kingdom is advancing, and His method is disciple-making through the Church—holistically and incarnationally—grounded in a biblical worldview. These truths transcend denominational lines and unify believers from Pentecostals in Latin America to Anglicans in Africa.

This conversation is a call to elevate Scripture above interpretive frameworks, to approach theology with humility and charity, and to focus on telling the full biblical story.

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Episode Transcript

Scott Allen (00:03):
So this is where I'm like you know hey, listen, I
know you might come from atradition that's strong on this
like it's this, it's not that,but be careful.
Be careful, because the Bible'soften bigger and broader than
you think it is.
This is where you want to holdthe Bible up over and above your
particular school oftheological thought and let it
critique your school oftheological thought, not the
other way around.

Luke Allen (00:32):
Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world, to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.

(00:52):
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.

Scott Allen (01:11):
Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas
have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen, I'm thepresident of the DNA and I'm
joined today by my friends andco-workers, luke Allen and
Dwight Vogt.
Hey guys, hey, good morning.
Just a small crew here today.
We have no guest, so we thoughtwe would talk about a subject

(01:33):
that we get asked often aboutwhen it comes to the ministry of
the Disciple Nations Alliance,and that is kind of where are
you coming from theologically?
Are you affiliated with aparticular denomination?
Do you subscribe to aparticular theological school of
thought?
Are you kind of covenantal?

(01:53):
Are you dispensational?
You know kind of where are youcoming from?
Where are you coming from?
This is a very fair question,and so we thought we would
address it today and just talkabout kind of how we think about
these things, why we've madechoices that we've made, and
we'll just take it from there.
Guys, sound good?
Yeah, let's get into it, yeah.

(02:14):
So let me just start us bytalking about kind of where you
know what the DNA, some of thedecisions that we've made, you
know, in terms of just how weposition ourselves on these
things.
We describe the ministry asnon-denominational, so we're not
formally affiliated with anyparticular denominational group
Anglican, presbyterian, you know, methodist, whatever it may be.

(02:38):
So we're non-denominational andwe're, I would say, broadly
ecumenical.
But that doesn't mean that wedon't have core convictions.
Obviously, as a kind of anOrthodox, if you will, not Greek
Orthodox or Russian Orthodox,but Bible-believing Orthodox
organization, we take the Bibleextremely seriously and the

(03:00):
basic creeds, you know, theNicene Creed, the Apostles'
Creed, you know these are allcentral to our beliefs.
And then, beyond that, you know, we obviously have a teaching.
You know, at the center of ourministry is a teaching, a set of
ideas that we think are reallyimportant for the church right
now and we're very open aboutthose.

(03:21):
We call them our core truthsand our kind of operating
principles.
And just really quick on thecore truths, let me just go
through those really quick.
So we've got those in front ofus.
These are, when I say coretruths or foundational truths is
what we actually say thefoundational truths at the
ministry.
These are areas of emphasisthat really are at the

(03:44):
foundation of virtuallyeverything that we teach and
they are just in a nutshell.
Number one Jesus is King, jesusis Lord.
Number two his primary agendais to advance the kingdom of God
.
Number three by makingdisciples not just of
individuals but of all nations.
Number four his key agent inthis task is the local church.

(04:08):
Number five the ministry of thelocal church must be holistic.
It cannot just be limited to afocus on spiritual, but it has
to be holistic.
And the ministry of the churchmust be incarnational, must be
lived out very practically,hands-on.
And the last one is the localchurch must operate
intentionally from a biblicalworldview.

(04:30):
A biblical worldview meaningbiblical answers to the big
questions Does God exist?
Who is God?
Who is man?
What does it mean to be made inthe image of God?
Where is history going?
What happens after death?
These kind of big questions.
We're talking about thebiblical answers to those

(04:50):
questions that come from thescriptures.
So we're very open about thefact that, yes, we're a
Christian organization, we'vegot a teaching.
These are the core, thefoundation of our teaching.
It might even be good to talkabout some of our principles,
because our operating principlesalso affect this question quite
a bit.

(05:12):
Let me just go through some ofthose.
First of all, we say we seekneither power nor glory.
We're not trying to create.
What this means for us is that,you know, in Christian ministry
circles, especially in theUnited States, it's very easy to
get into this mindset of we'retrying to build up our
organization, our church, youknow, and what we're saying is,

(05:36):
you know, we're really trying tobring glory to God and honor
Him, not build up something youknow called the Disciple Nations
Alliance.
We want to play the part thatGod's given us to play, but
we're not seeking power or gloryfor ourselves.
We're a school of thought,meaning that at the center is a
teaching and a set of ideas, notso much an institution.
We follow God's lead, and thenthis one next one is working

(05:59):
collaboratively.
We want to work with peopleacross the spectrum that kind of
agree with our teaching and cansubscribe to it and that over
the years has turned out to bequite a broad group that spans
different denominations anddifferent schools of theology,
and we want to get ideas out aswidely as possible.
So, you know, so we're kind oflooking to work with whomever,

(06:22):
you know, whomever wants to joinwith us, kind of link arms and
work together.
We want to relate to each otherin the love of Christ.
So we do want to be verycharitable and loving in our
relationships to one another andoptimizing local resources.
So, anyways, then the questionstill remains well, you know,

(06:47):
what is your influence, yourprimary influence, kind of
what's your family tree, if youwill and that's a fair question,
and I don't—I think everyonehas.
You know all Christians andChristian organizations and
ministries.
They have kind of a family treeright.
They have a set of founderswho've been influenced by people
and particular, you know,schools of thought, you know.

(07:08):
So we don't operate in a vacuum.
We've been influenced, and justthe fact that we talk about
things like the kingdom of Godand biblical worldview is a clue
, probably to some of ourinfluence.
And, yeah, the way I woulddescribe our influence is that
one of our founders well,actually, both Dara Miller and
Bob Moffitt really were.
They came out of evangelicaltraditions, baptist traditions,

(07:31):
I think.
Both of them attended DenverSeminary.
They were both a little bitalienated during their seminary
experience because of the strongsacred-secular divide.
They had a real heart forsocial issues, poverty,
injustice, and what they werehearing in seminary was none of
that really matters, just focuson preaching the gospel and
getting people saved.
Obviously, they had no problem,you know, with that part of the

(07:53):
message.
Dara has a background in YoungLife and Bob as well, in
evangelical, you know,gospel-proclaiming ministries.
But it was just the narrownessof that that bothered them and
the idea that these issuesjustice issues, poverty and
hunger don't seem to matter orthey're somehow secondary, less
important.
They both traveled to Europe intheir young days, in their

(08:15):
youth and they spent many, manymonths, years in Darrow's case
at Labrie with Francis Schaeffer, so deeply influenced by
Francis Schaeffer, case at Libriwith Francis Schaeffer, so
deeply influenced by FrancisSchaeffer.
And if you go back and look atSchaeffer's his family tree, if
you will, it's probably moststrongly shaped by that kind of
Dutch, kuyperian Reformed schoolof thought, if you will.

(08:36):
So a lot of that's come overand shaped us, shaped our
thinking on issues of biblicalworldview and sphere sovereignty
and these kinds of things thatwe talk about in our teaching.
There's not one square inch ofthe entire creation over which
Jesus doesn't claim it's mine,you know.
So we're proud about that.
We have no problems kind oftalking about the influence of
that particular school.
But here's the thing we don'twear a jersey, you know, with

(08:59):
Abraham Kuyper's picture on it.
You know we don't wear that onour sleeve, and part of the
reason is that Francis Schaeffernever did.
I know Darrow talked about this.
I mean he was influenced bythat school, he came out of that
school, but he always felt likethat was important and he
respected it, kind of like Irespect my family history and my
family tree, but there'ssomething more profound and more

(09:20):
important.
I'm a Christian, I'm a followerof Jesus, and so I'm not going
to, you know, make a big dealout of that.
I'm going to, you know, it'snot that it's unimportant or but
I think it was just a kind of asense that it, you know, it's a
secondary thing, you know, tomy being a Christian, a follower
of Jesus.
And so he never, schaefer,never made a big deal out of

(09:43):
that and that passed on toDarrow and kind of came into the
ministry of the DNA.
You know I've probably doneenough setting up guys just as
we get into this.
I'd like to hear your thoughtsabout the DNA and maybe we can
talk a little bit about how thishas played itself out, you know
, in our ministry over the years.
So Luke or Dwight, yeah, whatare your thoughts?

Luke Allen (10:08):
Yeah, if you don't mind me playing devil's advocate
real quick, just to make surethat I'm hearing you right, dad
and Dwight too, feel free toanswer this.
But you know, sometimes whenpeople hear, oh, we are, we're
non-denominational, we'reinterdenominational, we're an
ecumenical ministry, they hear,oh, you guys just don't want to
plant your flag, you know, youguys just don't want to take a
stance.
Are you trying to just avoidtheological debate?
Because you're avoiding debateand maybe avoiding confrontation
, or maybe you don't think toodeeply about these things?

(10:29):
Is that the answer?
So you're just saying thatyou're not a denominational,
just to kind of play the neutralcard?
I know that's not what we'redoing, but I just want to make
sure that people hear that fromyou guys.
How do you respond when peopleask you like, are you avoiding
these things?
Well, that's kind of what I.

Scott Allen (10:44):
Oh, go ahead.
Dwight you respond please?

Dwight Vogt (10:48):
I'm reflecting, thinking of my own experience,
because I'm a part of this, Ijoined the DNA and I was
influenced by the DNA years andyears ago and I come from a very
strong Anabaptist background,mennonite, mennonite Brethren
background, which I'm very proudof.
And I'm thinking, well, what isit?
The reality is that, and youtalk about Francis Schaeffer and
his Reformed background andKuyper and his Reformed you know
he was kind of the head of thatbut I'm thinking what's

(11:10):
different is that you knowSpurgeon was Reformed, but we
don't talk about salvation hereand the nature of the call,
predestination, because anAnabaptist would say no, the
weight's a little bit more onchoosing than being called, and
we don't go there.
But we do go to this reformedunderstanding of this
sovereignty of God over all andthat in and of itself, that area

(11:33):
is very clear for us and that'sa new strain of thinking for an
Anabaptist at times.
And I because I'm reflecting.
You know, I've been with thedna leadership team and we've
traveled to egypt and spent timewith coptics and they were like
, yeah, let's talk about this.
Anglicans in northern ugandayeah, let's talk about this.

(11:54):
It was like this is, this isimportant, this is new.
And then pentecostals inguatemala yeah, let's talk.
So there is a very clear Idon't want to call a doctrinal
theme, but a clear theologicaltheme in the DNA.
And for some reason, that cutsacross a lot of ground.

Scott Allen (12:10):
Yeah, and I think that what we're trying to be
honestly is just biblical and Iknow that may sound naive, and
we're certainly not trying toavoid questions, luke.
I think it's fair for anyone tohave a question and say you
know, hey, what is your view ofthe end times or whatever it is.
We're not trying to duck oravoid that, you know, let's have

(12:32):
a talk.
But I think part of the way Iapproach any of those is rather
than well, I'm clearly in thiscamp and you're in that camp,
I'm right, you're wrong, let'sdebate at camp.
I'm right, you're wrong, let'sdebate.
Let's understand that there aredifferent, you know, views of
this within the churcheschatology, or predestination,

(12:52):
or the kingdom of God.
There's different views.
Let's try to understand them,right, yeah, and it's not to say
, hey, I don't have my ownconvictions or my own thoughts
about that, but hey, I could bewrong.
You know, let's talk.
I'm kind of always open to belearning and growing.
You know, in this and I dothink right now it seems like,

(13:12):
especially in the United States,you know, there is this kind of
strong kind of desire to puteveryone into a box.
You've got to fit into a box,and if you're not fitting into
that box.
Somehow.
You're not, you know.
And listen again again.
I don't have a problem withthese schools of theology, but I
do have a problem with it whenit becomes too important or too

(13:33):
big.
And I was thinking about this.
I think there's a there's a.
What I mean by that is we canbe wrong, you know, if we
elevate our particularinterpretation of the Scripture
above the Scripture.
I see—here's two problems I seewith that.
Number one is that where wecome up where the Scripture kind
of rubs our particular schoolof theology a little bit wrong,

(13:53):
it doesn't quite fit.
It's a little bit like puttingin a round peg into a square
hole.
We tend to kind of jam it inthere, you know, and it does
some damage to the way we readthe Bible, because what's really
, at the end of the day, moreimportant is my particular
interpretation of the Bible.
I've got to make everythingkind of—let me give you an
example of this.
So we look at the GreatCommission, for example, matthew

(14:13):
28, 18 through 20, and we seeit as a call to disciple nations
, because Jesus clearly uses theword nations in there Make
disciples of all the nations.
Now you know he's not talkingabout baptizing nations like
Denmark.
You know.
So obviously, individuals areinvolved in this and that's what
it goes on to say.
You know, baptizing them,teaching them.

(14:35):
We're talking about individualpeople there, not entire nations
.
You can't.
You know, you have to baptize aperson, you teach a person.
But the point being, I think,jesus' point is it's got to go
beyond the individual person.
It's got to start influencingthe culture and the nation.
It's bigger than just savingindividuals out of nations, it's

(14:56):
discipling nations.
So that's you know.
And then if I go to aparticular group of people that
struggle with that and you askthem, well, what's the Great
Commission?
They'll say the GreatCommission means go into the
world, preach the gospel, plantchurches.
And I'll say no, it doesn't saythat.
But what they've done isthey've taken the Bible and

(15:20):
they've kind of taken it andshoved it into their school of
thought.
Right, that's a problem, and Isay that too.
I was thinking about thisrecently, guys, with.
You know, when Jesus was doinghis earthly ministry, you had
these different schools ofthought, you know, on the part
of the religious leaders of theday.
You had the Pharisees, you hadthe Sadducees and then of course

(15:42):
, they had their kind ofparticular group and rabbi that
they followed.
You know I follow RabbiGamaliel or whatever it is, so
they were all wearing that ontheir sleeves.
You know, I'm part of thistribe, this kind of school of
thought.
And here's the deal when Godcame in the person of Jesus
Christ, they all missed itbecause it didn't fit any of
their schools of thought.

(16:03):
Like no, clearly the Messiahcan't be a carpenter from
Nazareth, like you know, it justdoesn't fit my theological grid
.
But here's the deal, god, thatwas what God was doing.
He was coming in, you know, asa carpenter from Nazareth, and
so they missed it.
And I think that's the problemwhen we get too fixated on our

(16:23):
particular schools of thought isthat often God is just going to
surprise us or do somethingthat's bigger and we might, in
the worst possible scenario wemight completely miss it or deny
it.
Anyways, I've said a lot.
Go ahead, guys, and respond tothat or put some new thoughts on
the table.

Luke Allen (16:41):
Well, you're just reminding me of in Paul's letter
to the church in Corinth, 1Corinthians.
It talks about how the churchthey're like dividing themselves
into their little camps of whowhat?
Teacher of the way they like tofollow the best, whether it's
Apollos or Cephas or Paul, andthey like to kind of, you know,
choose their little teams and wedo that today don't we?

(17:10):
Luke, you know.
Do you follow Pper or macarthuror keller, you know who's your
guy, right, yeah?
Or I mean even more, so youknow chesterton.
Or, like we said, kuiper, right, you know, I'm, you know.
So anyways, we still do it.
And it says right there infirst corinthians you got to be
careful about following humanleaders um let's follow christ
you know, yes, let's, let's bechrist and again nothing wrong
with those leaders or theirschools of thought.

Scott Allen (17:27):
But it becomes a little bit wrong if you get them
elevated above the scripturesor above Christ.
It's like team first, you know,and I'm like no Bible first.
And you know, hold that teamloosely because you could be
wrong, like, hey, you know,we're all fallible, right, let's
be open, let's be learningthinking, but hold that a little

(17:47):
loosely you know?

Dwight Vogt (17:47):
Okay, then answer this question for me.
We talk worldview.
Why do we focus on worldview?
Because we do find commonground at that level.
But, then even there we'll bumpup against some differences.
Is that enough of a question?
Why do we talk about worldview?

Luke Allen (18:06):
Let me see if I can answer this, dad, and don't tell
me how I'm wrong because I gotto make sure I know this stuff.
It's a worldwide audience you'regoing to test Uh-oh.
What's so convenient about thebiblical worldview is it's set
in the basic biblical principlesthat we find in Scripture
repeated truths throughoutScripture.
One of those is one of them islike the sanctity of life.

(18:26):
Right, the principle of thesanctity of life.
You can find that throughoutscripture and that, of course,
is something that's going to betrue within a biblical worldview
.
What I think is so interestingand encouraging about learning
about a biblical worldview isthrough these biblical
principles, through a biblicalworldview.
If you understand this and youare discipled in it because it's
not something you getautomatically when you become a
Christian, but as you'rediscipled in it and grow in it

(18:47):
God's given us everything weneed to understand about how to
live a Christian life.
He's given us all the clearguidelines for how to do that,
the blueprint, the framework.
What you don't need to know tolive a fully Christian life is
you don't need to know the exactargument on baptism.
You don't need to know exactlyhow much of this we're doing and

(19:08):
how much of this God's doing.
Those kind of debates that havebeen going throughout the last
2,000 years of church historyare very important, but they're
not necessary to living a fullyChristian life.
So the biblical worldview laysout that basic blueprint again
of how to live this basicChristian life, and that's true
regardless of your denomination,regardless of your niche

(19:28):
theological view on some veryimportant but also very complex
and difficult topics.
How did I do?

Scott Allen (19:35):
You know, well said Luke, and you know my response
to Dwight on the worldview is, Ithink, what we're trying to do
in our teaching on biblicalworldview.
This is where I do like story.
You know people talk about thebiblical story.
I think very often evangelicalsand I was this way when I was a
new Christian we like to Derosometimes talks about forests
and trees.

(19:56):
You know, we immediately diveinto the trees.
We look at a particular book ofthe Bible or we look deeply at
a particular scripture or even aparticular theological issue
like baptism, and we reallyfocus in on these things.
They're important, but what wedon't see, what we miss, is the
whole forest.
And so what DNA is trying to dois say let's step back.

(20:16):
Yeah, these trees are allimportant, but honestly, you
can't understand the trees verywell unless you see the bigger
picture.
And so we start talking aboutthe big picture of Scripture.
You know, in the beginning Godcreated the heavens and the
earth and we talk about thingslike who is God and the fact
that God's a creative God, aworking God, and he loves his
creation.
And then, at the high point ofcreation, he made man in his
image and his likeness and heputs him into the garden and

(20:39):
gives him dominion and says,make it even better.
And so we talk about the bigpicture, of course.
The fall then?
And well, let me even before weget to the fall.
We talk a lot about those basicrelationships that existed at
creation, our relationship withGod, our relationship to God's
creation to have dominion, ourrelationship to one another.
We see marriage and family, allof that established before the

(21:02):
fall, and then the fall happens.
All of it's, you know, all ofit is broken, alienated, and
then God starts a plan ofredemption, you know, and that
plan of redemption involvesredeeming all of those broken
relationships, all things, as itsays in Colossians, you know,
first and foremost ourrelationship with him, but then,

(21:24):
flowing from that reconciledrelationship that we can have
with him through the gospel,through Christ, is the
redemption of all of thesebroken areas of relationship.
So we talk about that biggerpicture, and I think that's
where we find a lot of unity,dwight, because a lot of people,
regardless of their traditionlike you said you came from a
Mennonite Anabaptist tradition,I came from a kind of a

(21:44):
conservative Baptist tradition.
That was my first group when Ibecame a Christian was
conservative Baptists, you know.
Anyways, I think talkingbiblical worldview brings a lot
of people together fromdifferent traditions and we've
seen it.
Like you know, people at ourvision conferences, where we're
teaching, come from.
You know a wide variety ofbackgrounds.
You know Anglicans andPresbyterians and a lot of

(22:08):
Pentecostal these days, you know.

Luke Allen (22:14):
Hi friends, quick break.
If you are ready to take yourfaith and turn it into action,
then check out the Kingdomizer101 course, which is our most
popular biblical worldviewtraining course here at the
Disciple Nations Alliance.
It's available in sevenlanguages, it's all online and
it takes most people about sevenhours to complete the entire
course.
It's designed, again, to helpyou live out the Great

(22:35):
Commission in every part of yourlife.
So no more sacred-seculardivide.
Visit quorumdeocom to sign uptoday, or you can find more
information about the course onthe episode page, which is
linked in the show notes.
One last thing before we jumpback into the discussion If
Ideas have Consequences has beena blessing to you.
We would appreciate it if youwould follow the show on
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(22:58):
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(23:18):
Now back to today's episode.
You know.

Dwight Vogt (23:24):
I hear you and I think that the point that's
different for me is and you'vesaid this it's Colossians 1,
where he's redeeming all thingsRight.
When you take that seriouslyand Luke you talked about well,
how do we live the Christianlife?
Well, part of redemption isliving the life and creating
culture in this life inalignment with God's plan.

(23:45):
As soon as we start talkingthat way, we're leaving the
simple just know Jesus, confessyour sins, repent and believe
and go to heaven.
We've now moved into whatthere's a calling on your life
to be involved in the redemptionof all things.
I mean that's a whole new.
Then you have to talk worldviewand I'm saying that's probably

(24:06):
where we leave.
I know we leave with somepeople.
We separate, not separate.
But you know, yeah, I don'tknow how else to say it I know
some people would say no, you'regoing too far now, dwight,
you're taking your understandingof redemption a little too far.

Scott Allen (24:26):
But I like what you said, dwight, about how your
personal history and you'reproud of it too, and I like that
we're proud of our family treeand obviously not all of it, but
hey, I respect.
I think there's good things tolearn in every one of our family
trees.
There's good things to learnfrom that Mennonite Anabaptist
tradition.
There's really good things.
I personally, when I look atthat particular group, I see a

(24:50):
group, especially in the 19th,20th century, that's heavily
persecuted and yet never becamevictimized or embittered and
just trusted God.
And if they were kicked out ofRussia, they moved to some
jungle in South America and theymade it flourish.
You know hard workers oh mygosh Hard work.

(25:12):
You know strong work ethic.
So there's, you know.
In other words, don't say, ohwell, listen, you're Anabaptist,
you're Mennonite, I'm not right.
You know I'm right, you'rewrong.
I just think let's step backand go okay, yeah, it's fine,
you're not, I'm not.
I don't come from thattradition and I may not agree
theologically with things thatyou know Menno Simon said or

(25:33):
whatever it is, but can.

Luke Allen (25:35):
I learn.

Scott Allen (25:36):
You know, can I learn Absolutely.
So let's be charitable, let'sbe open and learn and you know,
fine, develop your convictions.
I've got a little bit of adifferent conviction, but um but
.
But you know, be charitablewith that and learn.
You know there's reasons forthings there's.
You know there's reasons whypeople believe these things over
the years.

Luke Allen (25:56):
You know so yeah, my pastor recently said, or our
pastor did, I liked what he wassaying.
He was he was like disagreeabout these things, these hard
theological issues.
Go ahead, search for the truth,because, as you do so, you'll
search for the heart of God, butkeep in mind that you might be
roommates with that person inheaven for eternity.
So you know, be charitable.

Dwight Vogt (26:16):
Let me talk about the Anabaptists, the Mennonites,
then, because I do find itreally interesting and this is
where I appreciate the DNA,because it's really helped my
understanding of the Bible interms of its totality.
Um, what's interesting?
First of all, in terms of I'mstill a strong Anabaptist.
If, if you line me up withSpurgeon, and God does
everything and we do nothing, no, it's partly.

(26:38):
You know, we have to, we have awill and a decision process of
our own and we're going to bejudged for that.
I'm more on the side of theAnabaptists.
I'm going yeah, I actually dofeel like I make decisions, you
know, and Chloe would be on theother side with our reform
movement.

Scott Allen (26:51):
One of our team members, Chloe Carson.
Yeah, she's a.
Yeah, yeah, she's pretty, Imean pretty deeply in the
Calvinist camp, right, yeah?

Dwight Vogt (27:00):
Yeah, okay, but where I'm pointing at for the
interest of Anabaptists is thatwe have this study on our
website showing what theMennonites did in what was it?
Paraguay, ecuador, I don'tremember.

Scott Allen (27:11):
Paraguay.

Dwight Vogt (27:12):
Paraguay.
They went into a jungle carvedit out, just like they've done
wherever they've moved fromGermany to Russia, to Kansas, to
Nebraska, to Mexico.

Scott Allen (27:22):
Yeah, they were often refugees, and so when they
settled in a place.
They just plopped them in thevery worst place, you know,
right with the clothes on theirback.
And then they carve out thisincredible productive
flourishing garden spot andbecame quite wealthy in the
process and become quite wealthyand become very wealthy and
they're very honest andhardworking and I'm proud of
that heritage.

Luke Allen (27:42):
I hope I live up to it.

Dwight Vogt (27:43):
But when I think about there's no theology to
back it other than farm goods sothat people will come to Christ
.
So, your farm is your testimony, but it's, you're not, whereas
the Calvinists would say, no,that's part of God's glory.
Your farm is part of God'sglory, it's part of his creation
mandate.
I didn't get that as anAnabaptist and I often wondered

(28:06):
how did they, how do you?
because they, they, there weresuch good people when it came to
dominion mandate, but theydidn't have a dominion theology
for it.
So that's where I appreciatethe DNA.
Yeah, yeah and.

Scott Allen (28:16):
I think you're not alone, dwight.
This has been one of the joysfor me in working with the DNA
is that it brings peopletogether around a biblical
worldview kind of message.
But they come from differenttraditions and you can often,
you know, learn a lot and I lovethat.
So, like of late, it'sjust—I'll tell a quick story.
So, because we teach biblicalworldview, and a lot of that

(28:39):
does come from our, you know,influence, I mentioned Francis
Schaeffer, who also talked aboutbiblical worldview, and so did
the person who mentored him.
You know the Doya Verde andpeople that came out of that
Dutch Kuyperian school ofthought.
Right, they were the ones thattalked about biblical worldview.
So it does have kind of ahistory of late.
But, again, we don't wear thaton our sleeves.

(28:59):
We don't at all say, you know,we are Dutch Calvinist.
You know Reformed people.
Right, we're just trying to bebiblical.
Frankly, we're just like man, Isee this in the Bible, right.
So, anyways, when I was inMichigan, I was in—was it
Lansing.
It was Grand Rapids, michigan,which is in the United States.

(29:20):
That's a real center for—that's Mecca.

Luke Allen (29:23):
Yeah, Calvin, Kuyperian Calvin.

Scott Allen (29:26):
And I was meeting people there church leaders and
some foundation people andseminary people and they were
saying what's your message again, and then they said, wow,
you're teaching our stuff.
That's the way they put it,that's our stuff.
I said, oh okay, well, listen,we've been really gratefully
influenced by people thatAnyways, and then they said but

(29:48):
let me see your book.
Can I see your books?
I gave him a copy of DisciplingNations, daryl's book, and he
said wait, wait, wait, wait.
This is published by YWAMPublishing.
And he goes do you know whatYWAM is?
I said, yeah, ywam is a giantstudent ministry, youth ministry
?
He goes no, no, no, why I'mthis giant student ministry, you

(30:08):
know?
Youth ministry?
He goes, no, no, no, they'reassemblies of God.
They're flaming Pentecostals.
You can't you know.
And I said to him I said hey.
So I said they're not in yourcamp.
I get that.
But I said do you know when weteach the stuff that comes out
of your heritage around theworld?
Do you know who's reallyexcited about it?

Dwight Vogt (30:26):
Pentecostals, you know.

Scott Allen (30:26):
Pentecostals, you know, and yet they wouldn't
venture outside of their littlegroup to find that out because
they're wrong, they're out ofbounds.
And yet the Pentecostals, now,are being introduced to this
Kuyperian thinking.
In the same way, dwight, thatyou just mentioned yourself,
coming out of your Anabaptisttradition, was introduced to a
deeper theology of dominion, andyou know, this is the way I

(30:48):
think God wants it to be.
You know, like let's.
You know, these are things,these are good things, biblical
things to share, not our things.
And this is where I think again, like fine, have your
theological school of thought,but don't put it above.
You know the Bible, or you knowyour brothers and sisters in
Christ and kind of use it todivide yourself off from other

(31:08):
people, right, you know?
I think that's where it gets bador it goes bad.

Luke Allen (31:12):
Yeah, definitely Pentecostals get excited about a
lot of things, though.
So Well, and I will say thisbecause, as I've interacted with
them.

Scott Allen (31:21):
You know over the years, you know a lot of our.
You know some of the peoplethat are our top kingdomizers,
in places like Brazil, forexample.
I mean, I've learned.
I've learned and I'veappreciated you know so much
about their just their passion,their zeal and their desire to
really see God at work.
You know, this is God, isn'tsome abstract theological idea.
God's a real, living person whocan show up in this moment and

(31:43):
make a difference, and I lovethat actually.
You know, I needed that frankly, you know, because that wasn't
kind of where I was coming from.

Dwight Vogt (31:51):
So no, can you?

Scott Allen (31:52):
go too far.
Of course, with anything rightyou can go too far.

Dwight Vogt (31:55):
But anyways, go ahead.
Dwight, yeah, and I think withthe Pentecostals, where I've
seen them raise their eyebrowsis you get to the building of
the tabernacle in the OldTestament and you see, the two
craftsmen that were filled withthe Holy Spirit had nothing to
do with healing, had nothing todo with casting out demons, or
praying all night, prayermeetings, right Praying all
night.
These guys were contractors andinstruction guys.

(32:16):
And then you see somethingsimilar in Daniel, where Daniel
was an administrator.

Scott Allen (32:20):
Yes.

Dwight Vogt (32:21):
And Nebuchadnezzar said this man is filled with the
Spirit of God, so being aSpirit-filled born-again.

Scott Allen (32:26):
Christian means more than just praying all night
, you know and casting outdemons.
It actually means working hardand doing all these things for
the glory of God.
Yeah, and they love that, bythe way.
They get so excited by thatthey're like oh my gosh, this is
, you know, this is reallypowerful, right?
And I don't say, well, that'sbecause this comes from Kuyper,
you know.
I go this is what the Bibleteaches actually.

Dwight Vogt (32:48):
Go ahead, dwight.
Yeah, no, kuyper doesn't eventalk about that.
That's what's interesting.
You have to almost go to thePentecostals to realize it's
there, and then you go wow, theSpirit really works in diverse
ways, and here he's givingsomebody excellence for doing
their job well, to being a goodbanker, to being a good
craftsman, you know, a goodworker.

Luke Allen (33:09):
So how surprising is that?
I think it's really helpful ina lot of these discussions
around you know, some of ourtheological divides is to make
sure that we're categorizingwhat we're talking about in the
right place.
So, when we open the Bibleright, there's core truths, we
can all agree on that that everyChristian has to believe, and
if you don't believe them,you're not from a different

(33:30):
denomination, you're from adifferent religion, right?
So we all agree that Jesus isthe Son of God, things like that
.
So there's core truths in theBible.
But the Bible it's beautiful inthe way that there's so much in
there.
That's not just a clearcheckbox, exactly the thing you
need to believe, like a list ofdoctrines, right.
There's also a lot of thingsthat we can search out and it's

(33:51):
enjoyable and it's this questand we're looking into the heart
of God.
So there's these things thatare more probables, right.
They're more convictions, right?
I was just reading throughRomans and Paul does a good job
of addressing convictions assomething very important that
you should really hold to.
You know Romans, where he'stalking about meat, and if
you're convicted not to eat meat, then don't eat meat, you know?
And don't let a brother stumbleif you're with him by eating

(34:14):
meat in his presence.
You know, like respect,convictions, but they're still
not exactly core truths.
And then there's also thepossibles that are more of that
kind of I don't know if it'sthis way or that way, it's not
even really a conviction.
Maybe you know, maybe that'sinteresting, but I'm not going
to hold it too tightly.
So know when to hold thingstightly with your fists closed.

(34:34):
Know when to hold thingsopen-handedly.
J Gresham Machum he was anAmerican New Testament scholar
early 1900s, but he said it thisway and I love this quote.
He said there are things inscriptures that are certain,
there are things in scripturethat are probable and there are
things in scripture that arepossible.
The way you treat each one ofthose camps matters and the way

(34:55):
you interact with them and theway you interact in conversation
with people when talking aboutthose things matter.
And similarly St Augustine oncesaid in the essentials so again
, talking about those certainthings in the Bible, there
should be unity amongst allChristians In the non-essentials
but still the importantcategories, like those probable
or conviction categories.
There should be liberty fordiscussion and questioning and

(35:19):
searching and then in all thingsthere should be charity, right.
Remember that in all things weshould be treating one another
with charity.
Remember that before Jesus leftus, the kind of last command he
gave us before the ascensionwas to love one another, and by
this you will show the worldthat you are my disciples, right
?
It's important to keep that inmind in these debates.
The world should not be lookingat us and thinking we're just

(35:40):
always fighting amongst eachother and hate each other
amongst each other and hate eachother.
No, by our love they will knowus right.
So keeping that in mind, sothat's always helpful for me
when these discussions come upwhat's certain, what's probable,
what's possible and luckily alot of the stuff we talk about
with biblical worldview is justlike you're saying that the
basic story of the Biblecreation, fall, redemption,
consummation.

(36:01):
These are certainties.
We know this for a fact, factand then how do we live out
where we fall in that story andwhat is our mission within the
story, and those kind of things,those are.

Dwight Vogt (36:11):
They're pretty black and white, you know
exactly and I think the otherthing that we contribute is is
we look at one of thesecertainties like creation and we
say you know what are, what areother ways of seeing that
question of creation?
It's the idea that in the worldwe have secularists, we have
pantheists, we have people whohave different views of how life

(36:35):
came to be See realitydifferently.
And that really is important andit affects the development of
man.
So, anyway, when we talk aboutthat, we can sit with.
What am I trying to say?
There's just a lot of unitywith Christians about that.

Scott Allen (36:51):
We do have a story that hangs together and it's
quite different from theBuddhist story or the atheist
story, and it's extremelyimportant.

Dwight Vogt (36:57):
Yeah right, it's extremely and you lose that when
you lose that foundation andbecome a full-blown Darwinist.
Won't work for you.
So, we do concentrate on theessentials.

Scott Allen (37:10):
I think, luke.
By the way, I love that quotefrom Augustine a lot, Luke.
I think that's super helpful.
St Augustine, about, you know,in the essentials, unity.
I forget you know.

Luke Allen (37:18):
In the non-essentials liberty and all
things, charity and in allthings, charity.

Scott Allen (37:21):
Yeah, I really think that captures what the
spirit is that we're trying toput forward here at the DNA.
Well, and yeah, and I do thinkyou know one of our convictions
is, dwight, to your point, thatyou know people are really
fixated on these issues, thesesmaller issues, but they've lost
again the trees, but they'velost the forest and they need to
see the forest.

(37:41):
They need to.
It's really important to seethe whole story.
You know there's a quote, luke,you've been using quite a bit
recently about evangelicalsbeing really good at kind of
fixating on small things but notseeing the bigger picture.
What is that quote?
Do you remember what that?

Luke Allen (37:57):
is yeah, that's Francis Schaeffer.
Let me grab that real quickRight here.
The basic problem withChristians in this country, the
United States, is that they seethings in bits and pieces
instead of in totals.

Scott Allen (38:08):
Yeah, exactly, yeah , I was thinking about that.
By the way, just in our currentmoment, you've got—I think of
these new Christians that arecoming into Christianity elites
because they're seeing thedestructive consequences of
secularism, of Marxism, and it'scaused them to say gosh, these

(38:32):
things that I love and I valueso much, like freedom, free
speech, love, forgiveness,individual, you know, respect
for the individual, rule of law,whatever it is Wow, you know,
where did these come from?
And their answer, as they lookinto that and explore that
question, is well, they comefrom the Bible.
Actually, they don't come fromthe Bible.
Actually, they don't come fromthe Enlightenment, the rational

(38:53):
Enlightenment.
You know they come from theBible, and so they're really
excited about that big story ofthe Bible and they're really
exploring it.
But then you've got evangelicalswho don't know the big story.
As Darrell often says in histeaching.
They've taken the centralchapter of the gospel.
Man is a sinner.
He needs a savior.
Jesus died for your sins.

(39:14):
That's the bit or the piece.
It's a central piece, butthey've pulled that out.
They forgot the rest of thestory.
They don't hardly even know itand they said this is all the
world needs.
And so you've got a groupthat's coming into the church,
that's excited about the bigstory, and yet the evangelicals
have kind of lost it becausewe've stopped telling ourselves
the big story and just focusedon that one part of it.

Luke Allen (39:36):
You know that one part of it.

Scott Allen (39:37):
You know, that's all.

Dwight Vogt (39:37):
That's all you need , you know so and you're saying
big story, and I would say, andwhat lucas alluded to is the
essentials god exists.
He created man, male and femalein his image.
Yeah, and, and and somebodylike a you know you mentioned
people who are searching for godare going.
That's important because on thathinges liberty rights, respect

(39:58):
for human rights, human dignityhuman dignity you know male and
female respect um all thathinges on that yes and yet and I
love you talked about this too,but I love when daryl takes the
gospel and takes it out, thefour gospels out of the Bible
and puts them into another book.
Yes, the book of secularismRight, the book of pantheism
Right, the book of animism Right, and it doesn't work.

Scott Allen (40:20):
No, but it actually is what we do.
In other words, we all liveaccording to some big story.
And if all you say is anevangelical is, we just need
people just need to know thatthey're sinners and that they
can be saved through faith, well, they can accept that message.
But if they're thoroughgoingsecularists, I mean that's going
to change somewhat.
But they'll still kind of thinkin a secular way.
You've got to tell a biggerstory, the whole story.

(40:41):
You've got to put the gospelback into its original story and
tell the whole story you know.

Luke Allen (40:46):
So that's the mission, that's the ministry of
the DNA.

Scott Allen (40:48):
What's that whole story?
That makes sense of the gospel,I think another yeah.

Luke Allen (40:52):
Well, I just want to clarify that for anyone that
hasn't gone through ourKingdomizer courses is?
It's a powerful picture whenDarrow's up there and he's
holding the book it's not theBible, but it looks like the
Bible and he says we took outthe gospel story and he grabs a
section of that book in themiddle of it and he just rips it
right out and everyone's likeoh my gosh, you ripped the Bible
, you know.
And he takes the rest, thenon-gospel part of the story

(41:15):
Genesis 1, genesis 2, you knoweverything else he just throws
it away.
We don't need this anymore, wejust need the gospel message.
And then, like you were saying,dwight, what we'll often do is
we, because we don't see themessage.
And then, whatever worldview wegrew up in, in the one that we
we have, we've been shaped bywe've been shaped in.

Dwight Vogt (41:32):
You know whether it's animism or whatever.

Luke Allen (41:34):
So post-modernism, yeah, yeah, you'll take your
post-modernism, which he grabsanother book and he says here's
the post-modern book and he justshoves the gospel into it and
he's like boom, there's yourlife.
And to reference back to ourdiscussion last week with, uh,
george barna, dr barna, that'swhy we have so many syncretists
in this country, people that areholding two worldviews at the
same time, and they'reincompatible.

(41:55):
But, we've just shoved thegospel into these other stories.
It's a powerful world picture.
I would highly recommend anyonewho hasn't seen that go ahead
and sign up for the Kingdomizer101 course and watch that lesson
.

Scott Allen (42:05):
It really is the essence of our training is
helping Christians understandthat bigger story.
It's a powerful story.
I mean, it is the story ofreality and you know, and the
Gospels are part of it.
It's the central chapter in thestory.
But you can't reduce the storyto the Gospels.
You got to tell that wholestory, you know, and, as you
said, Dwight, you've got to holdit up over and against the
other stories, the postmodern,the atheist story, the animist.

(42:29):
you know story and you can saylook how different these are and
look how different the worldbecomes, the consequences that
flow from these differentstories.
You know, that's the essence ofour training.
I think another thing I learnedjust Rick put another topic on
the table.
Related to this is and thisagain comes from Francis
Schaeffer, but made a profoundimpact on my own thinking you
know, we've built our schools oftheological thought often

(42:52):
around issues in the Bible.
Like I think, dwight, you puton the table the issue of
predestination, sovereignty ofGod.
They'll build a whole school oftheological thought around that
.
That will kind of exclude freewill or the other way around,
and it's kind of thinking inthis either-or way.
And what Schaeffer said wasthat a lot of these tensions in

(43:13):
the Bible, especially where yousee kind of both of these things
, you see free will, you seepeople being held accountable
for their free moral choices andyet you clearly see God's
sovereign hand guiding thingsand that seems like a tension,
right, how can those two thingsexist?
There's a lot of those thingsin the Bible and what Schaeffer

(43:33):
said correctly is that often wehave to.
You know, hold those together.
And he likened it to a mobilein a child's bedroom.
That's got these differentpieces and that kind of hangs
together in a balance and thetruth or reality is more like
that image than it is this orthat, these two things.

(43:55):
But so many of our schools oftheological thought are built
around it's either this or that,and when you do that you can go
wrong.
You can actually miss a lot ofwhat the Bible's teaching.
You have to—Dwight.
You just are writing a lot onthe kingdom of God and this is a
big question on that too, or abig example of that, is the
kingdom now, is the kingdom inthe future?
Only when Jesus comes back?

(44:16):
You know, you can kind of seeboth of those in the Bible, but
you've got whole denominationsand schools of thought built
around it's this or it's that?
Right, because there's atension there, right?
Yeah, what's your—but again,you know this is where I'm like
you know hey, listen, I know youmight come from a tradition
that's strong on this like it'sthis, it's not that, but be

(44:37):
careful.
Be careful, because the Bible'soften bigger and broader than
you think it is.
This is where you want to holdthe Bible up over and above your
particular school oftheological thought and let it
critique your school oftheological thought, not the
other way around.
Go ahead, dwight, yeah.

Dwight Vogt (44:52):
And yeah, I walk in humility with that tension.

Luke Allen (44:56):
Right.

Dwight Vogt (44:56):
I mean, that's the hardest part, I think of Lot or
Job, not Lot Job arguing withhis friends on why he was
suffering.
And you know, job knew that Godwas good, job knew that God was
sovereign, he knew that he wasall powerfulful, and yet he was
suffering horribly, and he was.
They were trying to figure out,there had to be this, we had to

(45:17):
work this out.
They had to figure it out whywas job suffering?
And and finally, you know, andfinally God spoke and he
answered.
He says, he says well, I'mactually not gonna answer your
question, I'm gonna ask you aquestion where were you when I
established the foundations ofthe earth?
It's like, yes, I'm sovereign.
I'm actually not going toanswer your question.
I'm going to ask you a questionwhen were you when I
established the foundations ofthe earth?
It's like yes, I'm sovereign.
Yes, I'm all powerful, yes, I'mall good, but I can't answer

(45:37):
your question.
I can, but I won't.
So I mean, it's like it's theperfect picture of that mobile
hanging with all those disparateparts.

Scott Allen (45:45):
And somehow we have to hold them in balance and say
God is good, and yet bad thingshappen, and I take actually
great comfort in that becauseyou know, at the end of the day
God is always bigger.
You know he's wiser, you knowthe Apostle Paul says who's
known the mind of Christ?
You know from him and throughhim and to him are all things.
He's so much bigger and so itwould be weird and wrong if we
thought we could have it allbuttoned down in our own little

(46:06):
limited, you know, sense ofunderstanding.
And so be careful with that.
Like, if you think you've gotit all locked down, buttoned
down, guess what?
This again gets back to thePharisees and the Sadducees who
missed Jesus because it didn'tfit their paradigm.
It's just, you know that Godwould never do that, he would
never do that, you know.
So be careful.

Dwight Vogt (46:26):
I think it's just great to encourage people to
wrestle wrestle with ideas.
Yes.

Scott Allen (46:31):
And the humility piece of it as well, and learn
from each other Again.
I just think, learn from eachother Again.
Don't have your own convictions, I mean, I'm pretty strong.

Luke Allen (46:43):
in my Kuyperian theology You're pretty strong
anyway.

Scott Allen (46:47):
Yeah, right, but hey, I want to talk and learn
and listen and be charitable topeople that have different
convictions on these things.

Luke Allen (46:51):
So yeah, Just speaking of pushing back on
convictions, the mobile analogyyou used there, dad, I don't
love it you know, and I get whatSchaefer was trying to say, but
you got to be careful with that.
One of truth is somewhere in thebalance.
Right, that was the line yousaid.
Truth is somewhere in thebalance right, that was the line
you said.
But another thing you saidright after that is we need to

(47:12):
always remember that scriptureshould be over and above our
biases, our politics, our fillin the blank.
It needs to be over and above.
We don't filter our bias andour politics through what we're
reading on the page.
That would be a very skewedhermeneutic it's.
We filter it from above.
We've got to be careful aboutthat, because there is this
trend right now in the church tosay like there's a lot of the
Bible's all about balance.

(47:33):
Right, there's this crazypodcast titled God is in the
Gray, right, it's like it's notreally black and white.
We just have to search for Godand the truth is somewhere in
the balance there betweenpro-life and pro-choice or
whatever it is.

Scott Allen (47:43):
I'm just trying to say just be careful when you
talk that way.

Luke Allen (47:45):
But I'm just trying to say just be careful when you
talk that way.

Scott Allen (47:47):
Yeah, I know, but let me explain more of what
Schaefer had, you know, I think,on some—these two issues in
particular, I think are helpfulPredestination or free will,
predestination or free will Bothare in the Bible, if you—and
both have to be held in balance.
Think about the mobile.
If you remove one of those, ifyou remove free will and you

(48:08):
only have predestination, themobile collapses and you no
longer have the truth.
The same thing goes for theother side.
If you remove predestinationand God's sovereignty and you
only have human free will, thething collapses and you no
longer have the truth.
The same thing applies to thekingdom of God.
Is it now, is it future?
It's both, you know.
If you remove it's now and notfuture, it collapses.

(48:28):
You don't have reality.
Or the other way around.
Who advances the kingdom of God?
Does God do it or do we do it?
Right?
You know both.
If you remove God, then you getthis man-centered thing.
If you remove man, then webecome zeros and just sit on the
couch and God does everything.
So no, it's both.
You know, and this is.
There's so many examples ofthis.
I just think it's super helpfulwhere, if you feel tension in

(48:51):
the scripture about something,maybe it's meant to be held in
tension and you better becareful about removing one of
the two things.

Dwight Vogt (48:58):
Yeah, it's tension between two truths.
It's tension between two truthsand if you remove one of, them,
then they, you lose the truthyeah, exactly, yeah otherwise
you have neither is true, sothere's something in the middle
right.

Scott Allen (49:08):
so gray, yeah, not everything is—no, I'm not
talking about that mushy middle,Luke, that you're kind of
referring to.

Luke Allen (49:13):
I know, I know, I'm just making sure everyone's
hearing you, right, right, yeah,yeah, I mean that's Chesterton,
right, the Prince of Paradox.

Dwight Vogt (49:20):
Is it?

Luke Allen (49:20):
justice or mercy right Is it grace or truth.

Scott Allen (49:22):
Well, we can build our whole schools of theology
around.
It's this, not that, and thisis where I think it can often go
bad, it can go wrong, yeah goahead.

Luke Allen (49:34):
I loved Kuyper on predestination versus free will
and he says pray as ifeverything depends on God, Work
as if everything depends on us,and in all things give God the
glory.

Dwight Vogt (49:46):
I love it, me too.
You've got a quote foreverything.

Luke Allen (49:48):
I know.

Dwight Vogt (49:49):
Look here the glory .
I love it.
You've got a quote foreverything I know.
Luke the.

Scott Allen (49:50):
King of Quotes.
Oh, here's another one.
You know these things that haveto be held in tension.
This is a big one today becauseeveryone's so fixated on
eschatology.
Are things going to get betterand better and better, and when
they get good enough, jesuscomes back.
Or are things going to getworse and worse and worse, and?

Luke Allen (50:02):
then when they get really bad.

Scott Allen (50:03):
it's all going to be destroyed, and so you see
both of those in the Scriptureand I think there's the truth in
the tension there.
There's both.
Things are going to get betterand worse.
How about that?
That's why I love the parableof the wheat and the weeds.
There's room in reality for bothof those things to be true.
Actually, Things can be gettingbetter.

(50:25):
More people can be coming tofaith around the world.
The church can be growing andbearing good fruit all over the
world and at the same time, evilcan be growing and expanding
and we can be heading for somereally dark times.
Those can be both true.
But again people build thewhole schools of theology around
.
It's this and not that, or it'sthis and not that.
You know.

Dwight Vogt (50:45):
I've been meditating on Psalms 112 lately,
scott, and that point about youknow, does everything get bad?
And then Jesus comes again andit says several times, at least
three, about the righteous man.
It says and his righteousnessendures forever.
And I thought righteousness isjust the good that you do, the
things that are in line withGod's plan and will.
You're totally aligned.

(51:05):
That alignment, so yourrighteousness could be to build
a house.
Well, that house isn't going toendure, it's going to go.
You know, 200 years from nowour houses aren't going to be
here, but you did build a goodhouse.
But it says his righteousnessendures forever.
Somehow the good that is donefor god and with god and in god
endures forever.
And so, yeah, that's because theworld get worse and worse?

(51:26):
Yes, but somehow there's thispile of righteousness building
up.

Luke Allen (51:29):
That's a good application verse.
Yeah, what other applicationscan?

Scott Allen (51:37):
we apply for today's discussion.
I just think, luke you're—.

Dwight Vogt (51:39):
Live with the mobile.

Scott Allen (51:40):
Yeah, the mobile is , I think, helpful when you feel
tension and you want to say,hey, my group, my tribe, my
school of thought is reallybuilt around one of these two
things and not the other.
Maybe use that as anopportunity to say maybe there's
something important about theother and I need to.
Yeah, so that's one I think.

Dwight Vogt (51:58):
Don't be content with putting your gospel into
another story.

Scott Allen (52:03):
animism, postmodernism Be charitable, try
to learn from other groups, asopposed to kind of always, you
know, always having the bent orthe mindset of like I'm right,
they're wrong and I'm going totell you why.
You know that's okay, but beyou know what that lacks.
Is charity, like maybe there'ssomething that I could learn
from them?

Luke Allen (52:21):
Quick to listen, slow to speak slow to become
angry Right?
I think it's.
We got to be careful abouthuman leaders not to get too
wrapped up in a human.
Be careful about human leadersnot to get too wrapped up in a
human's take on all these things.
You know, if you have onepastor, maybe, or one theologian
that you listen to oneverything, you know make sure

(52:43):
that's not going over and abovethe scripture.

Scott Allen (52:47):
Right, right, yeah, I was in a group of Christians
recently and I was talking abouthow I'd been influenced by
Dallas Willard.
You know, some of his bookshave been really helpful for me
and their response was oh mygosh, you read Dallas Willard,
he, you know that like he's outof bounds, you know, and my view
is like, okay, yeah, there'sthings that I'm sure that he
says, although my experiencewith him is like, you know, I

(53:10):
really learned a lot from him.
But yeah, I'm not saying he'sJesus, you know, but to say, hey
, you can't learn from DallasWillard or John Piper or you
know whatever, tim Keller, johnMacArthur.
Learn, you know, and be carefulby saying that, you know that's
they're not in my school,they're not on my team.
You shouldn't listen, youshouldn't read them, you know.
I mean, I think there'sobviously there's lines, right,
you know there are essentialsand people can get outside those
essentials.

(53:31):
But anyways, good, helpfuldiscussion I hope for you who
are listening here today.
Hope we didn't make too many ofyou angry or offended.
I probably did so, luke Dwight.
Any final thoughts?

Dwight Vogt (53:49):
Enjoyed it, yeah well thanks Good.

Luke Allen (53:52):
It is fun to see how broadly these ideas can spread
when you just label yourself asa Christian.
That's it.
And it's fun how, on just ourlittle team, there's so many
different backgrounds andperspectives that are brought to
the table, and yet there's aton of unity.
And I think there's somethingbeautiful about the way this
church is supposed to interactas such.

Dwight Vogt (54:12):
You know, it's kind of fun.

Luke Allen (54:14):
And it's kind of rare I think, especially today,
to have so many different viewsand standpoints at the table and
work together and reasonableamount of unity.

Scott Allen (54:22):
So it's good, all right.
Well, luke, dwight, greatdiscussion.
Thanks for your contribution,your thoughts, luke, for your
quotes very helpful, and again,to all of our listeners, thank
you for tuning in yet again toanother episode of Ideas have
Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.

Luke Allen (54:44):
Thank you so much for joining us here on Ideas
have Consequences.
If this is your first timelistening to Ideas have
Consequences, as you heard, thisis the podcast of the Disciple
Nations Alliance, a globalministry that has been equipping
Christians with a powerfulbiblical worldview for nearly 30
years.
Our trainings have reached overa million people in over 100
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(55:06):
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Thanks again for your time andattention, and we'll catch you

(55:28):
next week here on Ideas haveConsequences.