Can a City be Discipled? | Lance Cashion - Ideas Have Consequences

Episode Transcript
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Lance Cashion (00:04):
Particularly in the evangelical church, there's
been this privatization of thefaith that it's deeply personal
and private, it's between me andJesus, it's my personal
salvation, it's what I believe,and then, okay, so the
consequences of that are you getout and get people saved, and
then that's, and you wait forJesus to come back.

(00:24):
But then there's this hugeswath of life that what do you
do in the meantime?
I don't think most people havean understanding of being a
Christian as a worldview, as alife system.
They see it as this is adecision I made.
This is what I do in responseto that decision say a prayer,

(00:46):
I'm saved, and then I go tochurch and try to be a good
person.
Those are parts, but they'renot the totality of the
Christian life.

Luke Allen (01:02):
Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world, to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.

(01:22):
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.

Scott Allen (01:41):
Well, welcome again everyone to another episode of
Ideas have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen, I'm presidentof the DNA, joined by my friends
and co-workers Dwight Vogt,luke Allen, and today we are
thrilled to have with us a veryspecial guest, lance Cashin.
Did I get your last namecorrect there, lance?

Yes, you got it, Great work.

Okay, lance, it's so great to have you with us
today.
I want to give our listenersjust a flavor.
You've got such an incrediblydiverse bio.
Let me just introduce youbriefly, and then I would love
to have you fill in blanks andjust share a little bit more of
your story.
But, lance, you're joining usfrom Fort Worth, texas, I
believe, and that is where youwere born and raised, is that

(02:26):
correct?

Yes, sir, a native of Fort Worth, texas.

A Texan, that's right, that's great.
Lance is the founder and theCEO of the Forge Room Foundation
.
Before that, he served as alocal outreach pastor at a
church in Fort Worth and hiswork experience goes far beyond
that.
He also was owner of a privatewealth management firm, had

(02:52):
extensive work in the insurancefield and if that wasn't enough,
he apparently Lance I'd love tohear more about this has a keen
interest in music and hasenjoyed a successful career in
the electronic music industry asan artist, label owner, radio
host and event promoter.
So that's a real diverse set ofinterests there, lance.

(03:16):
That's really exciting.
Lance, we connected because weshare a passion for discipling
nations.
Biblical worldview, the kingdomof God and just this kind of
understanding of the mission ofthe church is one that should be
involved in a deep Christianinfluence on our culture.
He's passionate about helpingfellow Christians think clearly

(03:38):
and articulately about biblicalworldview and fulfill their
mission to serve others andshare the gospel of the kingdom.
He's a Colson Fellow that wouldbe the Colson Center on
Biblical Worldview and our goodfriend, john Stonestreet.
He was awarded the Charles WColson Medal in May of 2022 for

(04:00):
his pioneering work in launchingthe Colson Fellows Program at
his local church.
That's really exciting.
Lance is a real thinker, awriter, a podcaster.
Speaks on a wide range oftopics including culture,
worldview, public theology,apologetics, and then is very

(04:21):
active in the area of combatinghuman trafficking, pro-life
issues, biblical leadership.
That's a lot, lance.
Just exciting to see how God'sbeen working through your life.
Tell us a little bit about whoyou are, kind of where you came
from and how you got into all ofthis kind of wide variety of
different vocations, if youwould.

Yes, and thank you guys so much for having me
as a guest.
I've been listening to yourpodcast and enjoying it and also
enjoying your social mediapresence, what you guys have
been posting and some of theincredible illustrations and the
cartoon type of stuff as well.
Those animations are reallycool.

(05:02):
So thank you, and I guess I'vekind of always been wired this
way of multiple interests.
I guess ADHD dyslexia have beenhelpful in that Some people see
them as challenges.
I see them as gifts from Godthat I enjoy a wide variety of

(05:26):
things.
I love God's world, I love thepeople of God's world and I love
the people of my community.
But really from a young age Ijust really enjoyed a wide
variety of interests, whether itwas building with Legos or
listening to music or, you know,beating the drums to my parents

(05:48):
.
You know displeasure, you knowas a young lad, but really just
enjoyed art.
I struggled in school but Iloved learning.
So once I was able to find andI had some teachers that
understood that I was going tostruggle and they taught me how

(06:11):
to read and enjoy reading, Iused to hate it, like many, and
then learn to learn, essentiallythat I'd be a little bit
different and that was okay,that I had some gifts that God
had given me that I could use ina different way to enjoy
learning.
But I was, like I said, I'mfrom Fort Worth.

(06:34):
I was born and raised here,essentially came from a kind of
a broken family.
My parents got divorced when Iwas three years old.
My father was a very successfulbusinessman.
I never went hungry.

(06:54):
I always had clothing, goodschool, so as well provided for.
Where he struggled was being afather and he didn't have the
upbringing of that father rolemodel and so he struggled, you
know, raising me and with my mom.
When they got divorced, I wentto live with my mother and so I

(07:18):
lived in this kind of brokenfamily structure and though it
was difficult looking back, Ididn't know I just thought that
this is what life was.
Most of my other friends, theirfamilies, were intact.
I went to a little Episcopalschool here in Fort Worth called

(07:38):
All Saints and during the timesof struggle, when probably in
first grade, my mom was takingcare of me and I would stay with
her and see my dad on everyother weekend or so.
I think that's how it workedout and my mom worked full time
and God sent this littlemissionary lady into our lives

(08:03):
by the name of Janie Ellis, andmy mom saw her caring for some
children on a playground wherethe bus dropped me off and my
mom couldn't get off work intime to pick me up, and so she
asked this lady, mrs Ellis, ifshe would care for me.
And that was God's missionaryinto our lives.
And she was with me and shebecame my godmother Went to

(08:28):
Episcopal Church that wasattached to this school and I
was at church with her onSundays and she was evangelical,
so she was sharing the gospelwith me, praying for me
constantly.
And when my mom would be away atwork or be out at night or
whatever.
Mrs Ellis would come, stay withme and this was really until I

(08:49):
was in eighth grade and shetaught me about Jesus, prayed
for me, and then in eighth gradeshe kind of put it to me she
was like you need to make adecision.
And I did and was baptized atAll Saints, a little church, and
that was incredible.

(09:12):
But I ended up going away toboarding school.
When I was right after eighthgrade I had three friends three
other friends that we were kindof troublemakers, I flew under
their radar.
Other friends that we were kindof troublemakers, I flew under
their radar.
The three of them ended upgetting into some trouble over
the summer and in the beginningweeks of school and I'd switched
to a public school for highschool here in Fort Worth and my

(09:38):
parents came together about thesecond week of school and saw
that there was writing on thewall that there could be trouble
for me and said look, you can'tstay here.
You can either pick a boardingschool or go to military school.
And so I chose to go toboarding school in Connecticut
and a week later I was inConnecticut with a suitcase,

(10:03):
applying for the following year.
Later I was in Connecticut witha suitcase applying for the
following year, my sophomoreyear, because there was no space
.
But then one bed opened up.
They needed a wrestler, a 103wrestler.
Their 103 wrestler went toanother school.
So one bed opened up in thefreshman dorm and they asked me
if I wanted to go to school atAvon and I said I looked at my

(10:23):
parents, my dad and mystepmother were there and they
were like you want to go toschool here?
And I said I looked at myparents, my dad and my
stepmother were there and theywere like you want to go to
school here?
And I was like, yeah, I guess.
So I knew that I needed to beout of Fort Worth, like deep
down.
And so I went to boarding schoolin Connecticut and went through
there, but there was nodiscipleship happening.
My path was ended up being veryselfish, going away from God

(10:46):
and the things of God.
Had my fire insurance is what Ifelt and then ended up in
college in Florida because I wastired of the cold and I was a
swimmer, so I was going to swimin Florida and went to Rollins
College.
And again that path just keptgetting darker and further away

(11:08):
from the things of God.
And while I was there gotinvolved in alcohol, drugs,
girls and had a girlfriend thereand I think it was my junior
year.
She got pregnant and had anabort.
We had an abortion and that was, at the time, it any sense of

(11:35):
what I was doing, what I wasreally doing.
And so after that, you know,life kind of went on.

(11:58):
But then it began to spiral outof control, getting deeper into
drugs and alcohol and seekingworldly pleasure, until several
years later that all came to ascreeching halt one morning when
I considered taking my own life.

(12:18):
The weight of sin had justended and the voice of the enemy
telling me that it would bejust a lot easier if you ended
this, lance, and I mean, it wasone morning I'll never forget it
, and I was just—it was the endof it.
And in the midst of thatdarkness and weight, god broke

(12:45):
through and it was the only wayI can describe it is like a
point of light broke through inthe darkness and that light was
hope.
And then the enemy.
I didn't hear that voiceanymore telling me that this
should end and all that.
And then from there I just gotup and stumbled toward God

(13:07):
that's the only way I coulddescribe it.
But he stopped it.
He shut all of that down and hereminded me that I was His and
I hadn't realized that ever,even going back to being a
13-year-old and being baptizedand saying a prayer and things

(13:29):
like that.
So fast forward a few moreyears, get married, have a
family and I'm sitting down.
I'm now working as a volunteerat a church over our pro-life
ministry, which is the wholestory behind that.
But now I'm chairing a pro-lifeministry at a church here in

(13:52):
Fort Worth and just severalhundred sweet, godly people who
are so passionate for God, thegospel and the sanctity of human
life, prayer, warriors, peopleon the front lines you name it
and I get the privilege ofleading them and I have no idea
what I'm doing.
I'm trying to apply businessacumen.

(14:13):
I'm like, okay, we got to geteveryone organized.
The senior pastor and theelders were so sweet, they were
just great leaders and they'relike we'll give you all the
support you need.
And um, it was.
It was incredible.
And um, during that time, as Iwas organizing things, I was
very excited I was alsolaunching a new business at the

(14:34):
same time, so it was a lot goingon had two little children and
my mom had been helping us bringour children home from school.
My wife was out working.
I was at home in our homeoffice working, and so my mom
had gone and picked up the kidsthey were toddlers at school and

(14:55):
put them down for naps.
And so I heard her come in andthen I went out to greet her and
say hello, give her a hug andeverything like that.
And so we sat down in theliving room the kids are asleep
in the room and my mom's liketell me about this ministry.
She was really excited.
She was attending the samechurch that we were and all of
that, and I was like, okay.

(15:17):
So I was like, let me get mynotebook.
Go get my notebook.
And here I am.
I'm like here are all the plans.
I'm like, here are all theplans.
I'm like look at this, it's,it's incredible.
And and, uh, she, she.
After I closed everything up,she, she looked at me.
He's very quiet.

And she said you know, mrs, Ellis would be so
proud of you right now.

You know, your godmother would be so very proud
.
And I was like, yeah, you know,I miss her.
She had passed away a number ofyears before, um, and then, uh,
she said my mom.
My mom said that she's like.
Now I want to tell yousomething.
She was like, uh, she said whenI was pregnant with you, um, me

(16:01):
and your father were fighting.
Um, me and your father werefighting.
I honestly I hated him andthere was nothing I could do to
him for what was going on withus, and there was all kinds of
things I won't get into, but alot of dysfunction there.
Um, and she said the only thing, the only way I could get him

(16:23):
was if I did something to you.
And so she went to her doctorand asked if she could get an
abortion, and the doctor said no.

Luke Allen (16:38):
I don't do that.

And she walked out and she told me she's like I
don't think I could have evergone through with it.
But I went in and asked and Iwas, of course, by now I'm
sitting there with my mom.
We have a wonderfulrelationship and we're both just
tearing up and we embrace eachother.
And good mom hug.

(17:00):
You guys know what it's likeyou get a hug from your mom.
Good mom hug.
You guys know what it's likeyou get a hug from your mom.
You know, and she said God hadbeen protecting me since I was
in her womb and to do whateverhe tells me to do, that I'm
protected.
That even in the womb, knowingwhat I was going to do to my own

(17:21):
child and what I would do withmy life, all those dark things
that God had protected me.
And so you know, hearing thatfrom your mom, you know that she
thought of ending my own life.
I shouldn't be here in so manyways.
I shouldn't be here.
But when she told me that in2000, this was 2013, it was like

(17:47):
a whole new.
This encouragement came in.
I was like, okay, and aconfidence in the Lord.
I'm like God, you have beenprotecting me and that's
incredible, that he wouldprotect someone that would do
something like I would do, andthen he would redeem them and
heal them and then push them outthere, not even knowing what

(18:11):
the heck I was doing.
That was the funny part, is Ireally?
When I started in the pro-lifeministry, I had to ask people.
I'm like, what does all thismean?
I knew what it meant to bepro-life.
I had to ask people like, whatdoes all this mean?
I knew what it meant to bepro-life, but I was like I don't
know this world and people wereso sweet to me and then to have
my mom, you know, encourage meand say I'm praying for you, I'm

(18:31):
with you, I'm in your corner,whatever you need, you, let me
know.
And then that just kind ofunleashed me and of course, my
wife and family were behind it100% and I was able to share my
story openly and see men andwomen come forward and say you
know, I have that same storyeither with contemplating

(18:53):
suicide or abortion or drugs oralcohol, but in any event God
uses those things.
But in any event, god usesthose things.
And so that's kind of how Istarted in the ministry.
And then, a year later, I getasked to come on staff the most
reluctant pastor ever at ChristChapel here in Fort Worth.

(19:15):
I went on as a local outreachpastor and then I started
helping deploy, equip andmobilize folks into the
community from this church inFort Worth and all these
different areas.
And so when I was hired, one ofthe pastors was like you have
one child, which is our pro-lifeministry.
Can you love 40 children?

(19:37):
I'm like God will give me thecapacity because that's how many
different ministry areas thatthe church was touching within
the local outreach community.
So I was like, absolutely,we'll adopt them all, let's go.
So it was an incredible journey, but it was all God just

(19:58):
getting glory in every littlecorner and every different
aspect of it.
I was like, oh my gosh, there'sGod in a ton of prayer.
So that's my story or a portionof it.
I hope that answers yourquestion.

Yeah, no.
Thanks for sharing the yeah,that's super powerful and it's
just so encouraging to hear howjust the reality of God and his
love for you from the time thatyou were in the womb and saving
you so dramatically when youwere at that moment of
contemplating suicide.
Just praise God.

Lance Absolutely Praise God.

Yeah for that story .
That's just super powerful.
Yeah for that story, that'sjust super powerful.
I'm just curious.
The music thing stood out to mea little bit this morning.
When did that kind of come infor you?
Was that in college, out ofcollege?

So my parents always listened to music.
Particularly my father Lovedblues and bluegrass and things
like that so.
I kind of came up with that alot in my background.
I got my first drum set when Iwas like six and then I played
the drums a lot and then gotguitars and things like that as

(21:11):
I got older.
Well, in middle school Istarted DJing at dances and
parties for friends, parentswould hire me for like $100.
I'd come set up all theequipment.
I had tape decks and aturntable, so the dual tape
decks they used to have thecassette players.
I used to have one of those, amixer and one turntable, and

(21:35):
that's what I would do and I'djust play Back then.
I was a child of the eighties,so eighties music and things
like that.
Um, and then in in high school Istarted making mixtapes and
things like that and my musictaste started to expand, um,
into everything from classicalto jam bands to electronic to

(21:57):
hip hop and all those things.
So I was making mixtapes andthen, once I got into college, I
went to like a nightclub andheard electronic music like
proper DJs in a club.
I was like, wow, okay, this isincredible.
So I went, started buyingrecords and then ended up
playing in clubs, starting aradio station and then launching

(22:22):
when I moved from Orlando whichis right, by Rollins, which is
in Winter Park.
When I moved to Austin aftercollege, I launched a full-on
label promotion company and I'dbeen putting out records and
DJing in Florida and Texas andthen ended up going on tour in
North America putting out analbum, all those type of things.

So you were composing music at that time?
Yes, In electronic.
You're using synthesizer Inelectronic environment.
Yes, sir, I want to hear it.

People say, well, why did you well with the music
?
You know, why did you get outof the music?
But I was like well, thelifestyle.
I had allowed the lifestyle tofeed into that darkness.
I still love electronic music.
I still have a lot of friendsin that world and a lot of them
don't know the Lord.
So I try to be a bit of a lightinto that world for them a

(23:19):
little salt, a bit of a lightinto that world for them a
little salt.
But I still love the music andgetting in that electronic
environment platform when I canand just to make something out
of nothing is really thatcreative opportunity that God
gives us as His creation, asco-creators or under-creators,

(23:41):
however you want to put thattogether.
It's incredible that you cantake just silence and then bring
a sound into that silence andthen build something from your
imagination, and now imaginationcaptured by God, it has a
different kind of beauty anddepth to it that just wasn't
there, really, before.

It was a business before now.
I'm sure your study on kind ofbiblical worldview and music
have really added a bunch ofrichness to that there it has.

And I'm able to capture some of the when I do
hear friends that writebeautiful music and I know that
they don't know the Lord, I canpoint out the beauty of it and
contact them and say, look, thatsong was beautiful.
It really is, and so there'sGod's common grace that people
that don't really know Him orwalk with Him can still write

(24:30):
something quite beautiful andextraordinary.
It's quite amazing to me.

Well, tell us how did you—let's kind of move into
our common area of interest,which is, you know, the theology
of kind of Christian engagementand culture in a way that
brings about positive change andinfluence kind of discipling
nations, as we describe it here.
How did you become interestedin that?
Tell us a little bit about thatbecome interested in that.

Tell us a little bit about that.
So originally, after my episode, I started stumbling towards
God.
I had a lot of non-believingfriends so when I would try to
tell them about my faith, youknow I had a study Bible and I

(25:23):
was really kind of strugglingwith answering some of these
questions.
Some of them were sarcastics.
None of my friends wereattacking me per se, but they
were kind of like mocking andthings like that.
I didn't have answers to thesequestions, so I came through the
door of apologetics andhappened to be listening to a
Christian.
I think it was a Christianradio station and I don't know

(25:46):
what I was listening to, butthey were giving away for a
donation.
Greg Kokel's Tactics on.
CD.
This is back when CDs, so itdates that a little bit.
So you could get.
So I made whatever the littledonation was and they sent me
these six CDs of tactics, sothese audio CDs and I just

(26:06):
started listening to them andthat kind of opened up that
world of okay, I don't have tohave answers.
I need to be able to ask reallygood questions, but I do at
some point in time have to havethe answers to these questions.
And then started diving intoworldview, went from apologetics
into worldview.
It was like why do people thinkthe way they do?

(26:29):
And started that opened up evena larger door, a whole nother
world, and my background is inanthropology and sociology, so
I'd always been interested inculture.
And so I had this background.
I'm like, okay, I see how thesetied together, even though my

(26:50):
training was in the secular typeof anthropology and sociology
in college, but then I startedto see how that worldview, these
presuppositions that lieunderneath everyone's beliefs
and values, and how they behaveand we talked about the tree
earlier it's all of that,started to see how that tied

(27:13):
together and then I wasfascinated by it, by just how
people thought and that biblicalworldview and just
understanding worldviews isreally a key to understanding
God's world, how we create itand the people that inhabit it,
and I started seeing peopledifferently.

(27:35):
It opened up the Bible to me.
It became something as ourcolleague friend John Stonetruth
say it's not just a book to belooked at, but a lens to be
looked through for all things.
And I then, you know, startedto see the world in a different
way and things became clearer.

(27:57):
Things became clearer and thenit became and this is it became
like a drug.
I became addicted to it in away, in a good way, not the old
way.

Luke Allen (28:08):
I used to be, but in a good way to where I was.

Like I wanted for everyone to experience that and
that they would have this deepunderstanding of who we are, how
God created us in His image,how we're to see the people
around us and love His worldwell, not only just the people
that inhabit it, but the thingsof this world that he created

(28:31):
that were good, Everything fromnatural resources to the
resources in our banks, the way,food, all the great things God,
art, music, all of those thingsthat he gives such a depth of
richness when you start seeingthem through the biblical
worldview, I was like, okay,everybody has to be able to

(28:53):
experience this.
It's, you know, that bookKnowing God by JI Packer is such
a powerful book and this isanother way of knowing God
through His world and the peoplethat inhabit it.
And then that then gives you aspecial dynamism or excitement

(29:14):
about sharing God's kingdom withpeople who don't know Him, with
people who don't know him, andso that kind of broadened that
worldview training or worldviewinterest attached with my
cultural anthropology background, kind of tying everything in.
And then here comes the ColsonFellows program.

(29:36):
So I went through Colson Fellowsin 19, fellows program so I
went through Colson fellows in19 was commissioned in 20.
At the same time all of the wehad what some people call the
Summer of Love, which were riotsand things like that.
In the cities you had theseracial tensions happening.

You're talking about George Floyd COVID.

George.
Floyd COVID all of these thingskind of compressing in on the
world, but particularly Americanculture.
And so you had this happeningand I always thought that my
anthropology, sociologybackground was completely wasted
.
I thought that that degree—infact my dad passed away a number

(30:19):
of years ago.
But I apologized to him.
I was like I think I wastedyour money putting me through
college and getting ananthropology degree at Rollins.
But God redeemed it becausewhen I went through that a lot
of my professors wereneo-Marxists.
So I was studying criticaltheory, critical race theory,
critical social theory incollege, and so God kind of

(30:42):
redeemed that and so Iunderstood a lot of what was
going on but then could take ina biblical worldview approach.
And I was going through Colsonat the same time and it was
incredible how God pieced allthose things together in trying
to give people a way to groundtheir faith through a biblical

(31:03):
worldview perspective and not bereaching out to the culture for
all these answers, because theculture will give you tools, but
they're not the tools of theBible to deal with all of these
issues ethnic issues, you know,covid, all of those things, so
that kind of—and then Colsonsort of supercharged that and

(31:25):
then I'd been reading a lot.
So this was kind of a path thatI continued down a lot.
So this was kind of a path thatI continued down and I've just
loved it.
The more I learn aboutworldview, the depths of it and
and what you guys do at DNA andall that, then it just gives me
more excitement and more toolsto share with with people that

(31:48):
um come in contact with ourministry at Fort Worth.

Luke Allen (31:53):
Hey guys, thanks for listening.
I just wanted to quickly directyour attention to our core
training here at the DiscipleNations Alliance called the
Kingdomizer Training Program,which is a free biblical
worldview training course.
In this course, you'll learnwhat a worldview is and, more
importantly, why there is onlyone worldview that actually
works that comports with reality.
As Christians, we all why thereis only one worldview that
actually works that comportswith reality.

(32:14):
As Christians, we all know thatthere's only one God and one
Bible, but we often don't thinkabout how God also created one
way for us to see and make senseof this world and therefore
live according to his basicdesign for us in this world, and
what we call that way of seeingthe world is a biblical
worldview.
Unfortunately, when you become aChristian, you don't just
automatically start seeing everypart of life through a biblical

(32:35):
worldview, so it's important tobe discipled as you form this
worldview and go through theprocess of being transformed in
the renewing of your mind, asthe Apostle Paul described it,
and that is where I would highlyrecommend the Kingdomizer
training program, as it is agreat tool to help you continue
to align your worldview with Godand His world, if you would
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Lance, do you think you know that just your own
story on this is so encouragingto me, and sometimes we talk
about being born again, again,you know, in the sense that
people come to know Christ astheir personal Savior but they
don't yet have that aha ofseeing their faith as a
worldview.
You know, it's still a messageof salvation, it's very personal

(33:53):
, but the concept of this biggerworldview that makes sense of
everything.
They don't yet have that and soconsequently they just you know
we all live, we're all shapedby a worldview, whatever the
dominant one in our culture is.
They, you know, whether youknow that or not or can
articulate that or not, they'reshaped by a postmodern, secular

(34:13):
worldview, but they'reChristians because they haven't
had that born-again-againexperience that you described.
Do you still think that's inyour experience teaching and
talking?

Luke Allen (34:27):
do you?

think most Christians in the United States,
in Texas and Fort Worth, arestill—haven't had that second
aha, that born-again-againexperience.
They just don't know theconcept.
Or how would you describe wherewe're at on that?

I think yes.
So the answer to your questionis yes, and I think that because
, particularly in theevangelical church, there's been
this privatization of the faith, that it's deeply personal and
private.
And it's a private matter, it'sbetween me and Jesus, it's my
personal salvation it's what Ibelieve and then okay.

(35:06):
So the consequences of that areyou get out and get people saved
and you wait for Jesus to comeback.
Go to Him or he comes to you,but then there's this huge swath
of life that.
What do you do in the meantime?
And I think that's whereworldview intersects with all of
it and gives meaning toeverything is when, once you

(35:28):
have the biblical worldview,that aha, that actually, god,
I'm saved for a purpose that mypersonal salvation.
I think Michael Craven from theColson Center puts it so well
my salvation is deeply personaland, yes, it's a deeply private
matter, but it was never meantto remain private.

(35:49):
It is a public proclamation, thegospel of the kingdom, and that
I see it as personal salvation,as the doorway into the kingdom
.
And then you need people todisciple you, to open that door
and say, okay, welcome to thekingdom.
And then Ephesians 2.10 comesinto play.
That's been, that's my coreverse for my life.

(36:11):
People are very aware of.
Ephesians 2.10 comes into play.
That's my core verse for mylife.
People are very aware ofEphesians 2.8 and 9, for you're
saved by grace through faith,but then Ephesians 2.10 gives
you what you're saved for, thepurpose.
You know we're workmanship inChrist Jesus, created for good
works that we should walk in,and they were preordained.
They were for us.
Like he knew before thefoundations of the world, that

(36:33):
here are the works.
You know, scott, luke, dwight,that you're going to walk in for
my glory and you can't do it onyour own.
I'm going to empower you to doit and once people see that the
kingdom opens up and it's, youknow, you see folks really grasp
a deeper appreciation for theredemption in Christ personally.

(36:54):
But then what is God doing inthe world?
And that God is in factredeeming will restore all
things and all the sin, all thebrokenness will be unmade and
that will end and he willrestore all things.
But until then we're asambassadors to be bringing salt

(37:16):
and light and the proclamationof the gospel and seeing people
come into the kingdom, butgiving that worldview.
So to answer your question is Idon't think most people have an
understanding of being aChristian as a worldview, as a
life system.
They see it as.

(37:37):
This is a decision I made.
This is what I do in responseto that decision.
I say a prayer I'm saved, andthen I go to church and try to
be a good person and those areparts of you know, living as a
Christian, but they're not thetotality of the Christian life.

Yeah, no it's a huge problem.

It is.

Actually, you know, because, if you again you know,
my conviction is that we areall shaped by these worldviews.
Worldviews are unavoidable.
When I say worldviews, I'mtalking about these ways that we
see the world around us.
What's ultimately real?
What does it mean to be a human?
All the big questions areanswered by worldview, and if

(38:22):
you're not consciously thinkingworldviewishly, if you will,
you're just absorbing whateveranswers that people around you
are giving you to those bigquestions.
And here's the thing you canbecome a Christian and begin to
have that worldview shifted.
But unless it's intentional andthere's a focus on it, you can

(38:44):
be syncretic if you will like,have a faith, but still be
largely shaped by the worldviewaround you and consequently you
don't have any—you're notdiscipling nations, you're not
having an influence on culture.
Culture is just shaping you andthe way you think.
So it's a huge problem.
You talk about a real focus foryou on Fort Worth, and I love

(39:06):
that.
How does a biblical worldviewshape my understanding of
mission, the good works that Godhas for me, and how do we live
that out in a way that has animpact on a city, much less a
nation?
Could you talk a little bitabout that?
What does it mean to live out akind of a missional theology of

(39:29):
biblical worldview in a waythat shapes a city like Fort
Worth?
I know that's kind of amouthful, but I love your
thoughts on that, Dwight, goahead.

Dwight Vogt (39:37):
I want to interrupt too, before you even go to that
question, because that's whereI think we want to end.
But what's an example, Lance,in your life where you had a
worldview shift.

That's a good question, Dwight Let me consider
that for a moment.

That's a great question, or?

maybe I'll rephrase that what's one?

you think that most people need to have that
walk in the church today.
So I think one of them and Ithink this is one that's
fundamental to the Christiantheology and our understanding
of God and our place in theworld is that every human being
is created in God's image, withintrinsic value, worth, and that

(40:27):
the world most, even secular orother worldviews, do not agree
with that at all.
That it is absolutelydistinctive to Christianity and
it's so important that that isfor me is my starting place,
particularly in the pro-lifespace and human trafficking,
things like that, when you'redealing with that, because what

(40:52):
you're seeing is a desecrationof what, of image bearers, and
when I I've got a lot of lostfriends I was with um, several
this this past weekend, um, uhin austin, uh, for a memorial
service for a friend of ours anda lot of them just don't have
the concept that human life, theChristian, biblical concept of

(41:18):
human life.
And I think that once Iunderstood that and that was
really, I would say probably, Idon't know 20 years ago, when I
really understood.
I would say probably I don'tknow 20 years ago, when I really
understood and it really hithome when my mom back to the

(41:38):
story with my mom, when she's init, and I knew these things in
my head but I understood it.
When she said that God wasprotecting me in her womb, I was
like why?
Because I'm created in Hisimage, she had a purpose for me
that I wasn't even aware of, youknow.
And then when you can share thatwith people, particularly in an

(42:01):
age when identity is underattack and there's so much
confusion that somebody who'sconfused about who they are and
they think life is worthless orthey think that they can create
themselves in whatever imagethey want, which is some heavy
lifting.
That is hard to do.
I'm glad I'm not the author ofmy life.

(42:21):
It would be terrible.
But when you can tell someonewhat is true real reality or
true truth about who they are,they don't have to be saved at
this point in time.
It's just say you're created inthe image of God with intrinsic

(42:42):
value, worth and dignity.
Your life should be protected.
It's valuable and there is apurpose for you that opens up
the door for so many otherthings, because the world
doesn't tell people that.
They tell you that you'reuseful for something, that
you're a good attorney or you'rea good football player.

(43:05):
If it's a woman, you could be amodel.
Those aren't Christian values.

Those are just Well that doesn't speak to your
intrinsic nature.
No, it doesn't, and so, if youcan speak, that's right and
speak.

What God has already said is true about every
individual human being in thewomb, all the way from the womb
to the tomb.
Doesn't matter your ethnicity,your ability, where you live,
what you believe, but that isstill true that you're created
in His image.
That's groundbreaking, agroundbreaking platform for the
gospel from my perspective.
So I think that's one shift andit happened for me, and I think

(43:42):
that's one that needs to happenfor more Christians.

That's great.
Thank you Excellent.

Yeah, let's go back then, Lance.
How do you?
You know?
So you talk about disciplingFort Worth, if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah, talk about that.
When you say that, what do youmean and what does that look
like?

So when I went on staff as a local outreach
pastor, I was exposed to somethings in my city that I didn't
even realize the extent of thebrokenness, whether it was, you
know, cps and foster care system, homelessness, human

(44:23):
trafficking, abortion,corruption, I mean, you name it.
It was like God in His grace,god in His grace just revealed
the underbelly, a darkunderbelly, of a city which the
veneer of Fort Worth wealth lotsof churches, lots of Christian

(44:47):
types, people are kind andfriendly, but the underbelly.
And so, as I was a localoutreach pastor, when you
minister, god takes you to someplaces and shows you some things
that you didn't know were there, and so, once that started, god

(45:09):
revealed that.
It became evident to me that Iwas to be a pastor for my city.
I don't know what all thatnecessarily looks like.
I'm still trying to figure a lotof that out, and so the idea
was that I needed to.
My heart had to be broken forall the brokenness in my city

(45:31):
and Fort Worth's a big place.
But I'm from here, I know howit kind of operates.
I know the culture here well.
I'm always learning new things,but I know the culture well
enough to see cultural shiftswhen we're growing.
We're one of thefastest-growing metropolitan
cities in the country.
But then I could also see theproblems within the church in

(45:53):
Fort Worth where there was adisconnect between what was
being preached and then what wasactually happening in the city,
or it was a very privatizedtype of situation in the church.
So there was a lot of differentfactors.
But what ended up happeningwhen I left the church my

(46:15):
previous employer and launchedthe Forge Room?
Originally, the vision was thiswas going to be in the church,
that we were going to equip andmobilize the people of this
church in a bigger way and getthem out.
But God is like, not a church,the church and then created the
conditions where I left staffand launched the Forge Room
Foundation and then it basicallybecame equipping Christians

(46:40):
with a biblical worldview,because the way that I see
discipleship in Scripture andthere's a lot of different
approaches to, okay, what doesdiscipleship mean?
It's obviously you're followinga teacher, but I see Jesus
throughout Scripture where hehas these followers, these
disciples.
These aren't necessarily theapostles, even though they're

(47:01):
included, but these people thatwere following him and many of
them were pagans, and then somewould believe and then, you see,
some would fall away and thenthe church kind of has this

(47:25):
discipling to Christ and thencoming to a saving faith in
Christ and then discipling themwith Christ until the last day.
And so this type of shepherding, but discipling the nations and
discipling in Fort Worth iswhat do I need to help
Christians in Fort Worth do thatlove the Lord?
And yet they're asking thequestion well, what should I do?
now we have political issuesgoing on in our city, but my

(47:48):
pastor tells me not to getinvolved with politics.
Well, okay, I've got someproblems with that, because, god
, we could talk about that allday.
But what if you're to be aprecinct chair?
What if you're to go to theschool, you're going to go on
the school board or run foroffice or support a great

(48:08):
Christian candidate that upholdsbiblical values.
You say no to that?
Of course not.
Or arts and music.
There's been a big thing happenat the Modern here in Fort
Worth.
There's been essentially childpornography that was put up as
art in a major museum here andthere's been a huge pushback

(48:29):
from the church in Fort Worthand there's been lawsuits filed,
investigations like all thesethings happening Like how did
this happen?
And there's been lawsuits filed, investigations like all these
things happening Like how didthis happen?
And yet how did it happen?
To begin with, well, the churchis largely absent.
Christians aren't on the boardsof these museums, they're not
in these institutions and ifthey are, they're quiet and they

(48:55):
don't know how to engage withthe ideas.
You know, we have largecorporations here in Fort Worth
I'm not going to mention thename of one of the defense
contractors, but they're in FortWorth and I have a dear friend
that his superiors were going tohave him use pronouns on his
email.
Well, he's a Christian.
He was like Lance, I have deepissues with that.

(49:15):
Now that's a conversation wecan have.
But he was like I, I have deepissues with that.
Now, that's a conversation wecan have.
But he was like I can't do that.
What are my options?
What helped me think throughthis?
I was like well, you need tohave your convictions and if
they let you go, god's got you.
But struggling with issues likethat, which seems minor to us,
but the man's been working therefor 25 years.
His family, I mean, that's howhe supports his family and he's

(49:39):
a good man.
But he's struggling withsomething like putting pronouns
on an email signature, I mean.
But the problem is that there'svery few Christians that are
equipped in these institutionsand in these domains and spheres
within the city that can bringsalt and light and bring truth

(50:01):
into these areas, becausethey've been regulated to a
privatized faith of go to yourchurch on Sunday.
Be a good person go to smallgroup tithe, all of those things
and the Ephesians 2.10 kind offades off into the distance, you
know, instead of bringing itinto the forefront for people.

(50:23):
So that's how I see it isallowing people to live for
Christ and, wherever God callsthem, serve His purposes and for
the crisis or opportunitythat's right in front of them,
whatever that may be, whetherit's in their family dealing
with a wayward child, or a childdealing with identity issues,

(50:44):
sexual identity issues, same-sexattraction or grandchild, or,
you know, in the area ofpolitics, pro-life human
trafficking.
We've got a human traffickingproblem in Fort Worth because
the church has been largelysilent on things like
pornography and the hearts ofmen and preaching the hearts of

(51:04):
men and redemption in Christ,that God can in fact redeem that
sin and that he can use you.
So I don't know if that went.
A lot of ankles there.

Luke Allen (51:18):
So, yeah, I mean, that's great.
When I, when I hear a questionlike that, it sounds so broad
and difficult how do youdisciple a city?
And I think your answer is spoton.
You start with where God'splaced you and, um, what you
were saying earlier with theimportance of worldview you've
been saved, yes.
But then ask people thequestion safe to do what, and

(51:42):
safe to do what where?
Well, let's start where you'reat.
You know and you are in thisbusiness, so you're safe to do
what in that business or in yourfamily.
Start there.
And so often when we hear thatthose questions of how do I
disciple my nation, my city, soon, we think I have to go do
something new and outside ofwhat I already do, I have to add

(52:02):
on like some ministry afterwork kind of thing, because
that's where real, realdiscipleship or real kingdom
mission happens.
It's like, no, you can startwhere you're at.
So I love the way you're goingabout that, but also what you
said I thought was helpful inthe fact that you, you and I
think you encourage people tonot just look at kind of the

(52:22):
surface eye level view of yourcity but look one step deeper.
What's the underbelly, what'swhat?
What?
What darkness is happeningaround me in the city, like Fort
Worth.
Most people around the worldare going to look at it and say,
oh, it's amazing, modern,beautiful and you know, I'm sure
not that much bad corruptionand darkness happens there, you
know, unlike other places in theworld where it's more obvious.

(52:45):
It happens everywhere and it'saround each and every one of us.
Um but not avoiding that is animportant thing to.
I was going to underscore thattoo, luke.

I heard that loud and clear from Lance that when I
asked the question, you startedby talking about things that
were happening in the city, inits culture and its practices,
and the different domains thatwere out of alignment, let's say
you know that were evil, unjust, dark, and so just to

(53:16):
underscore what Luke is sayingthere yeah, it begins, doesn't
it, with understanding that Godhas placed you in a place to do
good works, and then you knowwhat is broken here in this
place, having some kind of anunderstanding of that, and I
think to do that you have tohave an understanding of kind of

(53:38):
what does it look like to notbe broken?
Kind of what is the biblicalworldview you?

know God's ideal.

You have to have some sense of that.
Absolutely.
And then it has to be.
You have to have a sense thatthis is true for everybody.
This isn't just a personal,private thing, but this is true
for all people.
And it's true because Godcreated this world and when we
live according to the way thathe made it, it leads to, you
know, flourishing good thingsfor people, you know, and we

(54:03):
still live in a fallen world.
But he wants that.
He wants people to liveaccording to that truth and then
, having the courage to be ableto kind of address it, say God,
what can I do in this place toaddress these areas that are
broken, that are not what youdesire to see?
You know, and that often takescourage, you know.

(54:24):
But I think even before you getto that point, you have to
understand there's a lot ofsteps to even just get to that
point that I think we're notthere yet, you know, with people
because there's such adisconnect.
Any comments on what Luke and Iare sharing here?
Lance?

Yes, I mean, it's that part of it, as you're, you
know, describing that, andwe're kind of reflecting and
processing is always.
I was just thinking of, youknow, this bifurcated view we
have of the gospel, thesecular-sacred distortion, and I

(55:02):
was just reading, actuallyshortly before we jumped on this
podcast.
Colossians 1 is one of myfavorite chapters of Scripture
because it talks about thepreeminence of Christ, that he
is Lord over all.

Yeah, there is no domain of human existence that
he doesn't have an interest oran involvement in.
Right.

That's right, I mean, it's all His and because
it's all His, and I forget whosaid this.
I think it was Dr GlennSunshine.
He's like.
He asked the question what isJesus Christ Lord over?
And people are like everythingand.
I'm like, yeah, that's true, itrhymes with call.
He's Lord over all, but thecalling is attached to all, that

(55:48):
we are called into God'skingdom, first through salvation
, and then now he opens up thisdoor and gives us a mission to
serve Him for a time and place,for such a time as this.
But Acts 17, 26, that he hasplaced us in a specific time and
place every single person onearth, so we're not here by

(56:11):
accident.
And then that's still this big,convoluted type of idea, like I
don't know what that means.
And then do I start a Biblestudy at work?
Well, maybe, but if you livefor Christ each and every moment
.
And I love this quote by OzGuinness.
He says that Christianleadership, the Christian leader

(56:35):
, is the person, and he wouldsay every Christian is a leader.
And he says a leader is someonewho takes responsibility and
initiative for the crisis oropportunity that's right in
front of them, thus servingGod's purposes in their
generation.
And then he then goes intotalking about, you know, first

(56:57):
century Christians rescuingchildren from infanticide, from
exposure and abortion, andthings like that, and he's like
they were just rescuing thechild right in front of them.
So what's right in front of youthat you can take
responsibility and initiativefor and it's a person you know
when you talk to, when I dotrainings and we're talking
about these big worldview issuesand culture and all the things

(57:21):
and then it comes down to brasstacks.
You know you can raise a hand.
How many of you in the roomhave a close friend, a child or
grandchild struggling withsame-sex attraction,
transgenderism, sexual identityissues?
Almost every hand goes up.

(57:41):
Okay, what can you do to takeinitiative and responsibility
for that crisis, which is alsoan opportunity right in front of
you?
And then how do you go aboutdoing that?
There's these four questionsthat get thrown around.
I always attribute them to JohnStonestreet and Brett Kunkel
because they wrote them in abook, but there are other places
as well as the four questionsof what's good that I can

(58:06):
celebrate, promote and protect,what's evil that I can stop or
fight, what's missing that I cancreate or contribute, what's
broken that I can restore.
And then, if you look at everyhuman being, every situation and
ask those four questions,you're dealing with creation,
fall, redemption and restoration, those four chapters and again

(58:29):
the biblical worldview coming tolife.
And then, when you give peoplethe charge of what's right in
front of you.
Write it down.
Write that person's name down,start praying for them.
You want to change the culture?
Start there.
And yes, by all means go andspeak in front of a school board
if they're going to bringpornography into your schools.

(58:51):
By all means, if they're goingto be putting up really
salacious, sinful art in an artmuseum, speak out against those
things.
If you're a wealth manager, byall means teach someone biblical
stewardship.
And this is the way thatresources work in God's world,

(59:11):
when they're properly ordered.

Let me stop you there just a second, lance,
because what you're talkingabout doing here I want to tie
it to something you said earlierabout discipleship.
You said, and you used theexample of the followers of
Jesus and how many of themactually weren't.
You know, they weren'tbelievers in Jesus and yet Jesus
just kind of walked alongsideof them and started speaking

(59:33):
truthfully to them about the waythe world is and who they were,
and some of them did come tofaith in Christ.
You know, I think, if I'm notmistaking the way you described
it, that's a very different wayof understanding discipleship,
but this is kind of what we'retalking about now.
You know we're in these places,if I could use that word.
Disciple it's to speaktruthfully, and to live

(59:55):
truthfully to non-believers, youknow, or whoever is there
Christians or non-Christiansabout these important things and
that, in a way, will you know,some people will reject it, some
people will be attracted to it.
You know, tell me more aboutwhat it means to be a human
being made in God's image, withdignity and honor and respect

(01:00:19):
and purpose.
I'm drawn to that, you know,and then you know.
So the discipleship becomessomething that happens even
before someone you know gets tothe point of making a personal
decision of faith in Christ.
That's super important.
Because I think you know wethink of discipleship as
something that only happensafter that, and then you know

(01:00:39):
it's quite limited in terms ofits scope.
You know here's what it meansto be a Christian.
Here's, you know what it meansto read the Bible, to do
personal evangelism.
Have a quiet time you know,live a holy life.
Those are all really important,but this is something much
bigger and broader.

(01:00:59):
This is something that youbegin with, right where you're
at in the culture, byunderstanding biblical worldview
, living it out and being saltand light.
Am I getting what you're sayingcorrect?
Because these are reallydifferent paradigms than most
Christians have in the church.

Lance Cashion (01:01:19):
That's right and I think that we see things in
our synchronistic, pragmaticworldview, american worldviews,
that kind of.
Even as Christians we have tokind of push back on all that
and really continue to cultivatethe biblical worldview.
It's not set and done, you'vegot to continue to cultivate.

(01:01:40):
It is that everything becomesprogrammatic, that A plus B
equals C or whatever you know.
That formula is that nodiscipleship happens after
someone's saved, and then it's aprogram and, to your point, it
focuses on what we callspiritual formation, theological

(01:02:02):
knowledge, holy living piety,those type of things.

Scott Allen (01:02:07):
But it doesn't address issues in the culture.
These areas are broken.
Public theology is set aside.
It's not even looking for it.
Yeah, exactly.

No, it doesn't have an antenna for it.

Yeah, it doesn't have an antenna for it.
It's well even looking for it.
Yeah, exactly.
No, it doesn't have an antennafor it.
Yeah, it doesn't have anantenna for it.

It's well said, yeah, and so what we have to do
is, I think, as Christians thatare living worldviewishly or
thinking worldviewishly, isdevelop that discernment.
I think the missing piece if Ihad to say anything, at least in
my context is discernment.

(01:02:38):
There are a lot of goodChristians that can do the right
thing the wrong way, becausethey're not thinking through the
implications of what they'redoing or they don't fully
understand the social justiceissues, to use a worldly
framework.
Christians should have had anintent for that but we didn't.
Because we're not attuned to beable to pick up those under

(01:03:03):
that frequency, because we lackthat discernment, because our
public theology isn't fullydeveloped, meaning we know what
we're saved for, we understandthat we are to be in Scripture,
we're to be in community as achurch, but we're also gathering
and scattering every week thatwe're to be in Scripture.
We're to be in community as achurch, but we're also gathering
and scattering every week thatwe're to be living for Christ
everywhere.
I think it was Martin Luther wassaying it's almost like

(01:03:26):
changing diapers to the glory ofGod.
If you're a single mom, youknow, and you've got two little
ones at home and that's all youdo is work to put food on the
table, and you know, changediapers, you know, and that's
all you do is work, put food onthe table and change diapers.
How do you do that to glory?
Well, god sees you and ifyou're living in such a way,
they're like I'm going into worktoday and I've been working

(01:03:47):
here for 20 years and it's justthe usual 9 to 5 work.
But I'm going to glorify God inevery moment in it and then
people are going to see that.
And I'm going to glorify God inevery moment in it, and then
people are going to see that andit's going to change.
I'm going to bring order to thedisorder.
Even if it's having a cleanoffice or seeing a mess in the
kitchen, I'm going to bringorder to that.

(01:04:09):
And if no one sees it, that'sokay.
God will see it, but somebodyis going to eventually walk into
that kitchen and be like whoput this place in order and why?

Dwight Vogt (01:04:16):
Because it's usually a mess, and even that.
Then the question is, why isorder important, or where does
order come from?
And then you have to go backand say, well, god is a creator
of order, right.
First thing he did was he tookchaos of heaven and earth and
started creating order out of it, and that's right.
And he's the God of beauty aswell.
That's a worldview issue, right,and I think people tend to
operate like you're saying,lance, and I think this is what

(01:04:42):
you bring to the world is peopleoperate at this program level
and even a principle level, butthey don't understand.
Oh, god is a God of order.
And anyway, I would encourageyou with your sociology and
anthropology background, don'tlose that.
That's kind of a gold nuggetthat God's put into your life
that you can continue to bringwherever you go.

Yes, he's redeemed it At a very practical
level.

You're talking now.
Way down underneath is God, isa God of order.

That's why we do it and I think that brings
beauty even the aesthetic whenyou see things well-ordered,
beauty, even the aesthetic whenyou see things well-ordered.
I always love the medievalChristian concept of the music
of the spheres, like when Ifirst heard that concept and
started reading about it andtaking a deep dive into it.
My son, who's 15 now, when hewas much younger, I mean, he

(01:05:31):
loves the start, he's got allthese maps and everything and
he's brilliant with it.
But you know, when I look up atnight and we have these big
skies in Texas and I'm sittingout by a campfire or something
and I look up and I'm like themusic of the spheres, that is
order, it is music.
To the medieval Christian mind,that was the highest science,
it was music, geometry,mathematics.

(01:05:52):
They were seeing music andthere's something just
absolutely no human.
You can give AI all the powerin the world that you want.
It can never create that.
It can never create that it cannever, impact.

(01:06:12):
You like looking at the nightsky and you happen to see like a
shooting star, which happens tobe, a little piece of dust and
what that does to theimagination and that it's God
just glorifying himself.
And I always remind my kidswhen we go out to the country
every once in a while and watchsunset and you're watching the
clouds and the stars like youwill never see this happen just
this way ever again, and youcould sit and watch the sunset

(01:06:34):
every single night of your life.
Happened just this way everagain and you could sit and
watch the sunset every singlenight of your life.
But if you could haveChristians see God's order in
such a way where they could, youknow, go to a park or these
things, this just natural beauty, and see the order in it, it
does help them fortify theirfaith and actually build on
their biblical worldview.

(01:06:56):
And actually build on theirbiblical worldview because this
doesn't become this programmaticor practical thing that I do
every day.
It is how I see.

But even there the attack is that.
Well, this just happened.
You know, the Big Bang happened, darwin happened, and so even
there we lose our biblicalworldview.
Sometimes we're loving natureand we're loving the stars, but
we forget wow, this is what Goddid.
So then you go back to yourworldview.

And creation speaks, and creation speaks,
yeah.

Creation speaks loud enough to even overwhelm
Darwin.

Yeah, he wasn't listening.

But we still were so deceived by the guy.

So anyway, yeah it is true, yeah, he discipled
the nations plural in asignificant way.

We think Darwinian thoughts, even if we've never
studied him in many ways.
And I think that's you know, theconverse should be true, that
there's such a profound shapingof culture by true thoughts.
That's a lie.
So it's the truth.
But that's you know.
For that to happen, that has tobe something that we do.

(01:08:09):
That's you know, in God'sstrength and his power.
Now, lance, we need to wrap up,but some people would, when
they listen to conversationslike we're having right now and
this kind of framing ofChristian faith and faithfulness
, especially towards culture,they think of Christian
nationalism.
That's this new boogeymanthat's come up here of late.
And you're a Christiannationalist.

(01:08:31):
You're trying to kind of takeover the culture, impose kind of
Christian values and principleson non-Christians, and then you
have a lot of Christians youknow that.
Push back against it as well,saying things like you know,
this whole focus on culture,culture warring, trying to
change culture it's adistraction that you know.

(01:08:52):
Ultimately, that's not our job.
Our job isn't to disciplenations, it's to win souls to
Christ and bring them into thechurch, ultimately to heaven,
and this culture is kind ofirredeemably lost or something.
I'm not quite sure how theywould put it, but it's any kind
of trying to rescue.

(01:09:13):
This is kind of the Titanicview.
Right, You're trying to polishthe brass on a sinking ship is a
waste of time, it's adistraction.
You know, do not go down thatroad.
What are your responses to that?
I'm sure you hear that and justthis whole kind of charge of
Christian nationalism.
Are you a Christian nationalist?

Lance, christian nationalist?
It depends on which of the sixdefinitions you're using.
You know I try not to and thishas happened really recently,
over the last say five years.
Is I slow down?
Slow to speak?
I'm usually fast to speak.
Need to be slower to speak.
But back to the discernment istrying to go back and retrieve

(01:09:59):
biblical categories and thebiblical language for things,
and the reason why is becausethese labels emerge.
Like you know, races, that'snot a biblical category.
You go back to Samuel Mortonwho informed Darwin and then you
get natural selection and thesurvival of favored races, if
that's the full like you knowyou okay.

(01:10:19):
So some of these categoriesaren't biblical.
So, as a Christian, I try toreorder the categories and say I
speak in the language of theBible, or at least attempt to
and it's hard to do becauseyou've been enculturated to
speak a certain way racism andraces and all these things, and
I use that as an example,because the Bible speaks of

(01:10:40):
nations, tongues, tribes,peoples that's the language of
the Bible nations, ethnos,ethnicities, that we're
different people.
And, yes, I'm a man from FortWorth, texas.
I'm a Fort Worthian, I'm aTexan, I'm American and I'm a

(01:11:00):
Christian, but I'm a Christianfirst.
So when I read in the Biblewhere the nations gather, I mean
we're worshiping God as one.
You know all these tribes,tongues and nations that he has
brought into His kingdom.

You're talking about the passages in Revelation
, I guess foreshadowing inplaces like Isaiah and whatnot
yeah Right.

But when you see that that picture of that is
that I don't know how he's goingto organize the choir from all
these tongues and we're going toactually sound good, because I
can't sing very well.
But it's going to be amazingbecause there's some aspect, if
I'm understanding Scriptureproperly that we retain our

(01:11:43):
identity of who we are, where wewere born, our ethnicity, and
that's part of the beauty.
We won't all look the same.
We'll be glorified in theseglorified bodies.
We don't know what that'll looklike, but I always point people
to Revelation 21 and 22,because the idea that, oh, the

(01:12:04):
earth is going to burn away,there's nothing to be left and
we just got to the Titanic's getpeople you know, saved rescue
mission.
And then you have this.
You know Christian escapismthat kind of plays into it like,
wait a second, what do I readat the end of the book, which is
the new beginning?
It's like wait a second.
God comes to dwell with manhere and that's incredible that

(01:12:28):
God condescends almost.
It's almost like he condescendsto be with.
He loves us so much that hewould send Jesus Christ to die
for people that are in completerebellion against him.
And then he wants to dwelltabernacle with us again and
that you see the new Jerusalem.

(01:12:49):
And then he dwells with man andI'm like that is an incredible
story that we're a part of andan incredible vision that we're
heading toward.
And back to the meantime.
But I try to again, when itcomes to Christian nationalism,
I'm hearing like woke rightbeing thrown around.
I'm like, oh Lord, I'm like,don't use the categories.

(01:13:11):
I know that there's greattheologians that are trying to
be like wait a second, we canuse that category.
I'm just like I don't use thecategories because there's so
many meanings that can be tiedinto it.
It's like the word justice.
What do you mean by that?
Before we start talking aboutjustice, we could be going in
two different directions buthaving the same conversation.

I wrote a book about that.

Yeah, conversation.
You know I wrote a book aboutthat.
Yeah, so it's.
Yeah, I think the label youhave to kind of be careful.
It's back to the biblical.
Let's use biblical categories.
Yeah, I think that's a reallygood warning.

That's a label that we don't see in the scriptures,
and then the question is wheredid it come from?
Who kind of originated at thatand why?
You know what?
Were they trying to describewhat were they trying to do.

Were they closer to Gramsci, or were they closer
to Christ?
It's like where did this comefrom?
Are we talking FrenchRevolution or American
Revolution, like the Reformationor the Enlightenment?
Where are these concepts comingfrom that we're forming and
shaping?
Let's back to linguistics andanthropology.
It's like where are these wordscoming from and how can we use
the biblical retrieve andrecover biblical words and

(01:14:26):
categories and reinfuse back totelling the truth into a
situation?
Well, let's use thosecategories first, because then
you're reorienting people totruth.
And the beautiful thing aboutagain use those categories first
, because then you'rereorienting people to truth.
And the beautiful thing aboutagain back to the disciple
discipling the nations rightwhere you're at is sometimes
when you're working with someonewho's lost, that doesn't know

(01:14:48):
Christ.
They're confused and you justknow it.
But one thing I try to helpencourage people, and hopefully
some of your listeners as well,is that when you see someone
that you're discipling, thatyou're speaking truth and they
respond to that truth, celebrateit.
Be like they're orientingthemselves, they're turning away

(01:15:10):
from falsehood and it may bejust one little kernel of truth
that you give to them and yousee them lay hold of that and
they start heading toward thelight, the path of truth, and
you can celebrate that ratherthan just, oh, we've got to get
them saved immediately.

Yeah, salvation prayer or whatever it is right.

Right, which is an intellectual assent to agree
with some ideas that areabsolutely true.
But you have to help people getthere.
It's coming alongside andthrowing a little kernel of
truth in front of them and seewhat they do with it.

I think when people do respond to that truth in a
way that draws them, and they'redrawn to it and they turn away
from something that's evil ordark, that's the work of the
Holy Spirit, right there.
We don't do that.
Apart from this power of God,we're too fallen.
So yeah, celebrate that andthen pray.
What's next?

(01:16:09):
Let's help them on that journey.
Lance this has been reallyenriching to me.
You've helped me honestly justshape my thinking on this whole
issue of discipling nations andso just really appreciate it,
dwight Luke.
Any final questions or thoughts, as we kind of bring our

(01:16:29):
conversation today to wrap it uphere, stay the course.

Stay the course, Lance.

Luke Allen (01:16:36):
Yeah, yes, sir, wrap it up here.
Stay the course.
Stay the course lines.
Yeah, yes, sir, I uh, I'm a bigfan of what you're doing at the
ford room foundation.
Um, as far as how other peoplecan learn more about what you're
doing, you know, get involved.
I'm sure some of our listenersare in your area and uh, could
get involved boots on the ground.
But uh, yeah, just tell, tellus about that.

Yeah, so the Forge Room Foundation.
I launched it in May of 23.
It's forgeroomorg is ourwebsite, and we essentially do
three things we equip, activateand connect Christians to
critical issues in our communitythrough worldview training,
cultural intelligence anddifferent trainings in different
areas, whether it's humantrafficking or pro-life issues.

(01:17:17):
And then we activate them,meaning that we have a network
that we built out of differentorganizations and areas within
the city where the Christianvoice and influence is needed,
and a lot of these people arealready there.
We just plug them into thatnetwork and then they have a
community.
And then they have a learningcommunity where they can come

(01:17:37):
back and learn more.
We'll have speakers come inlike Eric Metaxas and Dr
Sunshine and John Stonestreet'sbeen in, and so we'll do these
big events.
But the idea is that we doseminars and workshops to help
Christians think biblicallyabout the world around them.
Help Christians thinkbiblically about the world

(01:17:58):
around them.
We expect that their churchesshould be developing.
You know their walk, individualwalk as a Christian and in the
life of you know we're going tohelp develop the life of the
mind and activate them into theareas of the city where there
needs to be the Christianinfluence.

Is it focused exclusively or primarily towards
your work in Fort Worth?

Yes, so we made a decision was when we first
formed the foundation.
Was this going to be a bigger,you know operation like a
national type of deal?
But I started looking aroundand my heart's from my city and
so we have great organizations.

(01:18:37):
What you guys are doing at DNA,you have the Colson Center.
You have.
Focus on the Family MavenSummit.
Just great organizations,center for Biblical Unity, that
are these national organizations.
But those big nationalorganizations struggle moving
the needle in a city.
But those big nationalorganizations struggle moving
the needle in a city.

(01:18:57):
What you need is a base in acity where they can bring all
these resources together andthen build a learning community
that's also an active community,that then takes all of this
worldview, learning and what Icall cultural intelligence and
then pushes that out and embedsit in the city through all the
different spheres andinstitutions in the city.

(01:19:18):
So we pull from, like I said,I'm going to borrow your tree,
I'm going to borrow your treeillustration.
We bring in speakers and we tryto bring in these resources and
make them available through ourtrainings and our connections,
so that I don't need to reinventthe wheel at the forger and we

(01:19:38):
have great organizations thathave done great work.
I just need to connect peopleto that type of worldview
training or those resources ortools that can help them in
their specific area and then sothat's what we do is focus on
Fort Worth.
This is, it's a big enough city.

Yeah, I love that you know enough problems.
I do think it's you know.
People say how do you disciplea nation?
And I'm like well, you startwith the most basic community
that you're in, which is yourown family.
Start there, right, right, andthen you can move on to your
city.
But we can't get our handsaround something as big as an

(01:20:17):
entire nation.
That's why I love about whatyou're talking about.

But you can do something in a city.
And cities are unique, andthat's where we start as the
family, like you just said, andyou work yourself out in
concentric circles from there.

Cities.
They've got unique issuesgiftings problems and national
groups can't focus at that level, whereas a city-focused
ministry like yours can, and soI love that.
I look forward to going on thewebsite and checking it out.
What is it again?
Tell our listeners.

It's forgeroomorg , that's our website.
And then I write I'm moving mypersonal website from Revolution
of man is where I write my blog.
It's now on Substack.

Okay.

And so you can go there as well.
And then we have a podcastRevolution of man podcast where
we talk about all kinds ofthings, but again it's the focus
on the city and helping theChristians and the church and
the city to engage with theircity, and it starts in what's
right in front of me that I cantake initiative and

(01:21:21):
responsibility for, and it'samazing watching people in
schools.
You want to fight humantrafficking.
Teach a kid to read beforethird grade.
You lower their vulnerabilitiesby 60%.
It's simple things like thatthat Christians can do, that
they can—then they know they canmake a difference.
You just have to show them howand then give them the

(01:21:42):
encouragement and confidence inthe community that'll support
them, that'll pray for them andmake sure that their churches
know that their people are outthere.
It's nothing greater to go to apastor of a church and say you
know, mary over here is making adifference in this area in our

(01:22:02):
community I don't know if youknow that or not and you see
their pastor like wow.
I didn't know.
Pastors need to be told thattheir people are making a
difference.
If they don't know already,they should be helping their
people make a difference, butsometimes they just don't know,
and that's an encouragement tothe pastors.

Wow, so powerful.
Lance, thanks for being with ustoday and just thanks for your
testimony.
It's encouraging to hear God'spowerful work in your life and
just the vision that he's givenyou, and may God bless you and
the work of your hands.
And thanks for being on ourpodcast today.

Well, thank you guys, god bless you guys and
everything that you guys doReally appreciate it.

All right, well, thanks, and to all our listeners
, thank you again for tuning into another episode of Ideas have
Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.

Luke Allen (01:22:55):
Thanks again for joining us for this discussion
with Lance Cashin, as always,for all of the resources that we
mentioned during the episodeand for more information about
our guest, just head over to theepisode page, which is linked
in the show notes.
And, by the way, if yourtakeaway from today's episode is
wondering how you can learnmore about how to disciple your
family, your community, yourcity or even your nation, as I

(01:23:21):
mentioned during the commercial,our free biblical worldview
video training course is a greatplace to start Again.
It's called Kingdomizer 101,and it's available at
quorumdeocom and it's alsolinked in the show notes.
That's it for today, guys.
Thanks again to each and everyone of you guys for joining us
here on.
Ideas have Consequencesconsequences.
Today.
We hope that you're able tolisten in again next week for
another episode.
You.

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