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June 10, 2025 82 mins

Vishal Mangalwadi returns to challenge the pessimistic theology that has sidelined the Western church for decades. He argues that the West's decline politically and culturally stems from bad theology. We pray, “His Kingdom come and His will be done on earth,” but simultaneously, we as the church in America have retreated from leading in the culture. 

To move forward, Mangalwadi proposes a bold vision that begins with education reform, calling churches to reclaim their position as centers of discipleship and cultural formation. Drawing from his global experience and biblical conviction, he offers a hopeful roadmap for restoring truth and rebuilding broken nations.

Main Topics:

  1. Why Western Christianity adopted a pessimistic eschatology—and the cultural cost
  2. How the church turned to a private faith and ceded culture to secularism
  3. Mangalwadi's plan to renew culture through biblically rooted education

Join us to explore how the church can recover its cultural voice and help replant biblical roots in today's world.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

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Luke Allen (00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode
of Ideas have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance, as
you guys know.
On this show we examine how ourmission as Christians is to
spread the gospel around theworld to all the nations.
But our mission doesn't stopthere.
It also includes being thehands and feet of God to
transform the nations toincreasingly reflect the truth,

(00:22):
goodness and beauty of God'skingdom.
Tragically, today the churchhas largely neglected this
second part of her mission andtoday most Christians have
little influence on theirsurrounding cultures.
Join us on Ideas haveConsequences as we rediscover
what it means for each of us todisciple the nations and to
create Christ-honoring culturesthat reflect the character of

(00:43):
the living God.
Create Christ-honoring culturesthat reflect the character of
the living God.
My name is Luke Allen and I amjoined today by our host, scott
Allen, my dad and John Bottimore, our co-host, and we just
wrapped up a fascinatingdiscussion with today's honored
guest, vishal Mangawati, who,according to our numbers on the
back end of our podcast here, isyour guys' favorite guest on

(01:04):
Ideas have Consequences.
So I'm sure you guys willappreciate today's discussion,
but as such, with Vishal weoften go pretty in-depth and we
cover a lot of ground, so wewanted to give you guys a quick
little highlight or summary ofwhat we heard in the discussion,
just so that you can have anidea of what to expect.
Dad, would you mind givingpeople a couple of highlights

(01:26):
that you took away from today'sdiscussion with Vishal?

Scott Allen (01:31):
Yeah, I think Luke thanks.
Vishal started the discussion,I think, really with just his
critique of how the church inthe West mostly speaking about
pastors and schools of theologyreally have kind of, in reaction
to secular enlightenment,developed a pessimistic kind of

(01:59):
theology that just is focused onend times and waiting for Jesus
to come back and just kind ofhanging on until then.
And he contrasted that with atheology that Jesus is the risen
king and he has all authorityin heaven and on earth and we as
his children have been adoptedinto his family, his royal

(02:22):
family, and we should be notjust hanging on but we should be
having a forward focus.
How do we bring truth and lightand goodness into every sphere
of society in honor of our king?
So very much the same kinds ofthings that we teach at the DNA.
He's just saying that reallydoes need to be recovered right
now, urgently, because we're atthis particular time in history

(02:48):
where the reigning worldview,this kind of secular
enlightenment worldview, isreally losing ground and what
will come after it really isgoing to matter a lot and it
will be a worldview.
The only question is whether itwill be the true Christian,

(03:08):
biblical worldview or some otherfalse worldview, it will be
even worse.
So it's a really important time.
So, yeah, that was kind ofwhere we started and then we got
into, as I recall, luke, somespecifics on what Vishal is
working on with his movement tobring about change, focusing
primarily on education, childrenand educational resources.

(03:32):
He mentioned work that is beingdone right now to develop a
kind of a biblical ChristianWikipedia and, as I recall, he
was even doing that with one ofthe original founders of
Wikipedia, who has kind ofsoured on the direction that
it's gone, no longer a platformfor free exchange of ideas.

(03:52):
So we talked, talked a bitabout that.

Luke Allen (03:55):
Yeah, go ahead yeah, I mean we did spend about
probably half the discussion inthe area of education and
sharing truth with the futuregenerations.
John, from that portion of thediscussion, what did you hear?
What can people expect to hearduring that part?

John Bottimore (04:13):
I think it was a wonderful wide-ranging vision
that's looking at taking today'stechnology and the ability to
spread education around theworld at a very low cost, very
deeply taking materials andagain kind of reinventing a new
educational approach to aWikipedia type of a platform and

(04:37):
that could be again producedand utilized widely around the
world at a very low cost.
Churches are really critical Nowwe're talking about
distribution here so churchesand families are really critical
Christians to take up this kindof a vision.
So they've got the capacity,but not the vision, as Vishal

(04:59):
said, to do that, to really lookat influencing education and
influencing worldview throughthis new model of education
which could supplement theeducation that's done today or
in some cases it could replaceit.
I think the whole point is thatit's a strong and powerful

(05:21):
biblical education that shapesworldview and, as we've heard
from recent podcast guests,worldviews are shaped very early
in life, sometimes by the earlyteen years.
So it was a wonderful vision tohear this kind of a possibility
and it would be great to havethe DNA figure out how our role

(05:43):
could integrate and intersectwith this.

Luke Allen (05:47):
Yeah, that was probably my highlight as well.
Sometimes these discussions canfeel a little bit in the clouds
when we're talking about kind ofshifts in culture and worldview
, and yet it got very practicaltoday and just talking about
education and resources andapplications and how churches
can be involved and individualswho are listening can be
involved, and so on and so forth.
So I appreciate that.

(06:08):
Probably my favorite highlightof the whole thing is when we
were talking about the rise andfall of secularism and kind of
that enlightenment myth thathumans can replace God with
their intellect and rationality,and we were asking him do you
see, do you see that, um, the,the age of secularism has kind
of come to a close and andreached its uh, the end of its

(06:31):
life?
And he was like, yeah, the, theutopianism that uh led, you
know, the, the kind ofsecularist utopianism of uh
communism and socialism, went upin a mushroom cloud in the 21st
century and so it's we're onthe, the tail end of that, and I
thought that was kind of a goodway to summarize it as
secularism led us to thedeadliest century in history you

(06:53):
know, it didn't work, and itssuccessor, post-modernism, has
uh run its course as well,because it has not provided the
answers either there's nofoundation there, there's no
truth, no foundation, noabsolute.

John Bottimore (07:04):
Yeah.

Luke Allen (07:05):
So, anyways, without further ado, guys, I'll hand it
over to you, dad, for you tointroduce our guest today.

Scott Allen (07:16):
Our special guest today is Vishal Mangalwadi.
Vishal, it's great to have youback on the podcast.
I believe this is your thirdtime, and so thank you for
taking time to be with us.

Vishal Mangalwadi (07:25):
Thank you for having me.
Well it's always an honor to bewith you.

Scott Allen (07:29):
Oh well, thanks, Vishal.
The same, the same.
And if any of our listeners arenew to Vishal, let me just give
a quick background, Vishalwhich it's hard to do given your
incredible career and ministryto do given your incredible
career and ministry but VishalMangowadi was born and raised in

(07:50):
India and he is aninternational teacher, lecturer,
social reformer, Christianphilosopher, and he's the author
of 14 books, including the bookthat changed your world and the
two-volume series.
This Book Changed Everythingthe Bible's Amazing Impact on
Our World.
Vishal is the founder of theRevelation Movement, which

(08:13):
exists to reestablish thecultural authority of biblical
truth, and I encourage you tocheck that out at
revelationmovementcom and youcan learn a lot more about
Vishal there.
In 2003, William CareyInternational University in
India honored Vishal's life andservice with a Doctor of Laws

(08:34):
degree.
Ruth and Vishal, his wife, havetwo daughters and five
grandchildren, and you'retraveling all over the world all
the time, Vishal.
But where are we catching youtoday?

Vishal Mangalwadi (08:44):
and you're traveling all over the world all
the time, Vishal, but where arewe catching you today?
Are you back in California?
Yes, Ruth and I came back toCalifornia about a month ago
from Malaysia, India and BritainWow.
And now we are here for aboutsix months.

Scott Allen (08:58):
Wow, okay, well, great.
And just one more thing Vishalis really a longtime friend of
those of us at the DNA.
In fact, the DNA was reallybirthed out of a time when Bob
Moffitt, darrell Miller andVishal Mangalwadi were teaching
extensively in YWAM, andVishal's teachings, his thoughts

(09:22):
and his encouragement reallyplayed a pivotal role in the
birth of the DNA, and histeachings continue to be a
really important part of ourmovement.
So, vishal, you're not just anyguest.
We consider you family and it'sgreat to have you back on today

(09:43):
.

Vishal Mangalwadi (09:45):
Thank you, I do feel greatly honored.
What a blessing Bob Moffitt andDarrell Miller were in the
early phase of my work,especially in the United States.
Yeah, yeah.

Scott Allen (09:59):
Well, vishal, we want to get into kind of what
you're working on right now andkind of where we find ourselves.
We're going to talk at a littlebit of a high level today just
because I think we're at areally important time in the
history of the West Westerncivilization, the history of the
church, and we want to talkabout how you see it, what

(10:21):
you're working on, and get youradvice on how we at the DNA can
be most strategically focusingour ministry at this time.
But I thought I would just setthis up a little bit by
referencing Oz Guinness's mostrecent book, our Civilizational
Moment, the Waning of the Westand the War of the Worlds.
I'm not sure if you've readthat, vishal, but it's a book

(10:43):
that we have been helped by andchallenged by Oz.
You know, in the book he arguesthat we're at a historic hinge
of history in the West.
It's something that you'vewritten about in your books.
The West was born out of therich soil of a Judeo-Christian
worldview, biblical worldview,of a Judeo-Christian worldview,
biblical worldview.

(11:03):
But during the 18th century,the Enlightenment, western
philosophers rejected God,rejected the Bible, and over
time they established secularismas the dominant worldview of
the West.
Our most important universities, our governments, businesses
and really every other area ofsociety became dominated by

(11:25):
secular ideas.
Oz calls this period the cutflower time.
In other words, westerncivilization he likens to a
flower that was largely cut offfrom the rich soil of the Bible,
but it hadn't yet wilted orfully died yet, in that it
continued to affirm biblicalvalues such as human dignity and

(11:47):
human rights, human equalityand freedom.
Some call it classicalliberalism.
But because those values hadbeen cut off from their source
in the Bible, it was really onlya matter of time before the
flower or the civilization woulddie or abandon those values and

(12:10):
ideals.
And then, of course, oz argues,goes on to argue that sometime
during the last 15 years or sowe've entered that period where
the flower is fully kind ofdying.
You see it, for example, in thegrowing tyranny and censorship
here in Western governments, theutter abandonment of Western

(12:32):
morality around biblicalmorality, around issues of
marriage and sexuality, the lossof values of human dignity,
human equality, even things likegratitude and love and
forgiveness, kind of replaced bya quest for power.
During the 19th and 20thcenturies, during this period of

(12:55):
time of secular enlightenment,the church in the West was
largely kind of accommodatingitself to secularism.
It both abandoned its mostimportant cultural institutions
to secularism.
It both abandoned its mostimportant cultural institutions
to secularism you could think ofthings like Harvard University,
for example or, on the otherhand, by secularizing its
theology in the case of themainline churches.

(13:17):
But in both respects the churchhad a kind of dwindling impact
on culture, and that's kind ofwhere we find ourselves today.
So, vishal, that's kind of thesetup for where we wanted to
talk today.
Do you agree with Oz that weare at kind of a hinge of
history?
That that basic setup that Ikind of went through very

(13:38):
quickly here.

Vishal Mangalwadi (13:40):
Yes, thank you for summarizing Osgood so
clearly.
My book, the book that madeyour world, was originally
called Must the Sun Set on theWest title because it was 400th

(14:02):
anniversary of the King JamesVersion and he thought that
market would have an interest inthe Bible because of that.
So the title was changed fromMust the Sun Set on the West to
the Bible and the making of howthe Bible created the modern
world.
The book that made your world,how the Bible Created the Modern

(14:24):
World.
The book that made your world.
But the book still has achapter called Must the Sun Set
on the West.
So the imagery that Osgunis isusing, that the West is
withering flowers because theyhave been cut off from their
root the image I had used wasthat the sun is setting on the

(14:46):
west.
Right.
But God promised Isaiah that sunwill rise again with healing in
its wings.
And that is, of course, whatDNA has been seeking to do and
what our ministry has beenseeking to do.

(15:06):
And what our ministry has beenseeking to do returning the
world back to God's revelation,god's truth, so that the spirit
of wisdom, knowledge,understanding, counsel might
fill the earth as the waterscover the sea.
So that is the vision, themission that we share in common,
and that is in fact thesolution, that the roots, the

(15:34):
seed that created the flowers,the beautiful flower in the West
and in the rest of the world.
My latest book is in factcalled the Bible and the rest of
the world.
My latest book is in factcalled the Bible and the Making
of Modern India, and we areready to do two or three other
volumes on the same topic of howthe Bible created modern India.

(15:56):
But that's also withering dyingbecause India has cut itself off
from the Bible, and largelythis is church's fault, this is
the fault of theology, and we'llcome to that.
But so the non-Christians haveevery right to reject the Bible

(16:16):
when the church itself doesn'treally see the Bible the kingdom
of heaven.
So part of the problem here isthe failure to understand the
kingdom of heaven.
Many of my Christian friendsthink that when you're born
again, when you pray thesinner's prayer, you get go to

(16:40):
heaven.
That's Christianity, that's thegospel.
But the kingdom of heaven islike seed, which is farmer souls

(17:01):
.
The seed sprouts has to benurtured, protected, watered,
and that the seed then growsinto buds and flowers and fruit.
That's the kingdom of heaven,which is what DNA has been doing
sowing seeds, as you call thispodcast.
Ideas of consequences that whenyou sow seeds, when you teach
truth, they bear fruit, truthsthey bear fruit.

(17:25):
And so, yes, the fruit ofWestern civilization, or the
flower of Western civilization,has been cut off from its roots,
the ideas that produce thesefruits, but the mission to be

(17:48):
the sower remains that we haveto sow the seed, plant the seed,
nurture those seed, and weed isgrowing out.
If you are seeing wheat inHarvard University or Princeton
or Yale, these were allChristian universities.
If they are just full of weedsthat even the secular world can
see that these universities havebecome the source of darkness

(18:11):
for America and for the world?
Yes, because the enemy has come, planted the weed and the weed
is growing and it is crushing,stifling the seed of the kingdom
of God.

Scott Allen (18:30):
Yeah, but I like your hopeful take, Vishal, it
doesn't have to be that way,because the seeds of the kingdom
still can be planted andnurtured and so there's hope.
Right, I think that right nowwe live at a time of kind of
pervasive hopelessness, Justkind of hang on until Jesus
comes back.
But I appreciate what you'resaying here, that it doesn't

(18:53):
have to be that way.
The flower, if you will goingback to Oz, can be reestablished
in the rich soil of the Bibleand the biblical worldview.

Vishal Mangalwadi (19:05):
Well and better and more beautiful
flowers can grow, because it isthe tree of life which we have
to grow.
So, yes, the pessimism which hasbeen a central feature of
American Christianity, let's say, since the 1930s, this is a new

(19:32):
problem because the one veryimportant mark of Western
civilization was optimism,confidence which, ironically,
someone like President Obamacaptured.
Audacity of hope, yes, we can,that we can go to moon, come

(19:58):
back, we can establish a colonyin Mars, we can conquer pl,
plagues, epidemics, etc.
So optimism, that which wasdifferent than the fatalism that
ruled the world, that was avery important feature of
western civilization.
Secular humanism, theenlightenment that you mentioned

(20:23):
.
Secular humanism, theenlightenment that you mention,
hijacked biblical optimism andsecularized it, grounding the
Western's optimism in socialevolution, darwinianism, that

(20:43):
society is always evolving, likespecies are always evolving.
So that was secularization ofbiblical optimism by the
Enlightenment.
But the secular hope that weare good, we can build utopia
and Nazism, fascismism,communism these were utopian

(21:06):
ideologies that we can build ascientific, classless society.
This secular optimism went upin mushroom clouds over
hiroshima, nagasaki, thatthrough fascism and Nazism and
communism and the two world wars, when we realize that we are

(21:30):
not as good as we thought we are, when man tries to become the
Messiah, he actually becomes amonster.
So secular optimism disappearedand American Christianity which
had already killed theChristian mind.
Abandoning the universities,retreating into seminaries was

(21:53):
abandoning the life of the mind.
And so the Bible students, halLindsey, tim Lihai, etc.
They took secular pessimism,baptized it with biblical verses
.
Oh, in 2 Timothy 2, paul saysthat in the last days things

(22:15):
will go from bad to worse.
So the future is doomed to beworse.
And a whole mythology developedin American evangelicalism.
It is called eschatology, butit is a pessimistic mythology,
that future is predetermined togo from bad to worse.

(22:36):
This is the last days, whichhas paralyzed American
Christianity.
So during the 20th century,last 100 years, american
evangelical Christianity hasbeen identified with pessimism.
The only optimistic religionthat grew in America was New Age

(23:00):
movement, which believed thatthrough meditation,
transcendental meditationentalmeditation, etc.
We can become god, that we wecan connect with ets, with ufos,
with divinity.
We can become god.
So, uh, but our pulpits keptteaching, by misinterpreting

(23:23):
paul epistles such as 2 Timothy,that the future has to go from
bad to worse, that the gospel nolonger has the power to reform.
Yes, in the 15th, 16th, 17thcentury it reformed Europe, but
now it cannot reform Americabecause we are in the last days.
So this mythology of the lastdays that Antichrist has to

(23:49):
appear.
And then Jesus has to comeflying in on a white horse to
slay the Antichrist, who has amass tanks and missiles and
drones against Jerusalem andmissiles and drones against
Jerusalem.
Jesus has to come on a whitehorse, like a Jedi knight, with

(24:09):
a sword that comes out of hismouth, some kind of a laser
sword.
With that he will slay theAntichrist and then he will sit
in the third temple and then thekingdom of God will come.
So the kingdom of God doesn'tcome by planting seeds, ideas

(24:30):
that have consequences, thathave fruit.
But the kingdom of heaven willcome with a sword that comes out
of Jesus' mouth.
But our exegetes and ourpreachers forgot that the sword
that comes out of Christ's mouthis in fact his word.
His word is double-edged swordthat slays evil, that saves

(24:53):
wickedness, it gives light.
So this whole emphasis that DNAhas been hammering, that the
ideas have consequences, truthbears fruit.
That's the heart of theoptimism on which America was

(25:15):
built.
So from first Peter B Kinguntil DL Moody, america was an
optimistic civilization.
But during the last hundredyears years it has become a
pessimistic civilization.
The christian church in america, the encapsulated by books such
as the late great planet earth.

(25:37):
That's mindset.
Eschatology is an, but thereare other issues behind
eschatology that have paralyzedAmerican Christianity.

Scott Allen (25:51):
Yeah, vishal, go ahead Luke.

Luke Allen (25:53):
Yeah, I think this is fascinating.
This is actually exactly whereI was hoping we would go.
I saw Vishal a couple days ago.
You posted on social media asimilar thought and I was hoping
to talk about it with you, soI'm glad you brought it up.
I dad, you know this, all myfriends know this.
I'm a stubborn optimist.
I've always been that way andas a stubborn optimist in the

(26:15):
church, when I'm havingdiscussions with people, when I
try to be very optimistic, a lotof people take that, what I'm
saying, what I'm, what I'm.
You know the, the hope I have,and they'll immediately go to
eschatology.
You know well, you must be this, or you must think this or you
must, and I'm like, no, I'm justlike you were saying, michelle,
this is, this is simple, justgreat commission obedience that

(26:39):
I'm talking about here.
We don't really need to diveinto eschatology in order for me
to be optimistic.
You know, on social media youposted the kingdom of heaven
comes when true ideas are taughtand nurtured to bear fruit.

Vishal Mangalwadi (26:54):
It's that simple, yes, and optimism did
not come from eschatology.
The Western optimism came fromunderstanding of the freedom of
God, on which was built the ideaof the freedom of man to shape
his own destiny.
The freedom see Greco-Romanworldview was fatalistic, and

(27:23):
that fatalism came from a beliefthat God is part of cosmos.
Man is great demigods, angels,archangels these are greater,
there are gods and goddesses andthere is supreme god, zeus, but

(27:43):
they are all part of the cosmos.
They can't change the laws ofcosmos.
So after winter comes autumn,and then summer, and then spring
fall and then back to winter.
The cycle goes on.
So God cannot change that cyclebecause he's part of the cosmos

(28:05):
.
He has lived by the laws of thecosmos.
It was William of Ockham, aprofessor in Oxford, when he was
meditating on Genesis 1-1, inthe beginning God created
heavens and earth.
He realized that Godpre-existed the cosmos.
He exists outside the cosmos,so he cannot be bound by the

(28:27):
laws that govern cosmos.
He created these laws, herespects them, he can change
them.
So the freedom of god andoxford punished him.
He was arrested and sent to thepope to be penalized.
I won't go into his detail, but200, 300 years later, when,

(28:52):
during the Renaissance movementthis is just before the
Reformation, the Renaissancemovement.
It was Picco della Mirandola whobuilt the doctrine of man.
If man is made in God's image,then man is also free.
He can become stronger, wiserthan the angels, but he can also

(29:15):
make himself foolish and dumband like earthworm.
So where does man fit into thisorder of creation?
Pico, in his oration on thedignity of man, the whole
concept of the dignity of manwas not an eschatological
concept.
It was a metaphysical conceptthat man, made in the image of

(29:38):
free God, is free to shape hisown destiny.
Now it was this concept of thefreedom of God and freedom of
man which Martin Luther thenapplied to politics in his
Treatise on Christian Liberty1520, a Treatise on Christian

(30:02):
Liberty that if man was createdto be free, politics, church
governance, must cultivate thisfreedom.
So the freedom of conscience,freedom to think outside the box
, freedom to innovate, to createthings, to look on a disease

(30:26):
and fight it, that we canovercome this disease, to turn
deserts into gardens, thisoptimism to turn military
dictatorships into freesocieties where individuals are
free tyrants, limiting the powerof tyrants.

(30:47):
So this became the part of thatbeautiful flowers that Os
Guinness is saying that the Westwas a beautiful flower with
individual freedom, religiousliberty, liberty of conscience,
liberty of speech, that in theuniversity, as a research
student, you can say that all myprofessors, all the scientists

(31:08):
in this field have been wrong.
Here is the truth, thatinnovative spirit.
So this was all part of thatidea of the unique dignity of
man and this is what broughtoptimism.
And this is what broughtoptimism which was then
secularized by the Enlightenment.

(31:29):
So Renaissance was before theReformation.
The Enlightenment came 200 yearsafter the Reformation and they
liked all the fruit and theysaid we don't need the Bible, we
don't need theology, we don'tneed the bible, we don't need

(31:49):
theology, we don't need truth.
The human mind can know.
So that confidence inrationalism.
It's like I have eyes, I cansee.
Why do I need god?
The fact is that eyes don't seeanything without light.
You need the sun, you needelectricity, you need candles or
whatever.
Eyes are dependent.

(32:12):
If you take the light away,eyes don't see anything.
That's how mind is like the eye, but it needs light, it needs
revelation.
You take revelation away, youdon't even know what man is.
So if our universities and ourencyclopedias, such as Wikipedia

(32:37):
, have become the source ofdarkness, it's because they
don't even know what is male,what is female.
So if you don't know what ismale, what is female?
So if you don't know what ismale, what is female, you can't
define what marriages.
If you look up Wikipedia, whatis marriage?
They don't know.

(32:57):
And the problem is not HarvardUniversity.
The problem is this ecosystemwhich is now actually symbolized
by Wikipedia, where you look atDNA, you look at the
complexities of the cosmos, butyou cannot see that there has to

(33:18):
be intelligence behind it.
So consistently Wikipedia, forexample, rubbishes intelligent
design as pseudoscience.
Michael Behe is apseudoscientist, Stephen Myers
is a pseudoscientist, DiscoveryInstitute.

(33:42):
So this is the ecosystem whichis cutting the roots of the
flowers.
So our universities, ourencyclopedia, our schools are
destroying.
They're planting the weed whichis bearing fruit that people

(34:06):
don't know.
If sexual purity is a good thing, what is adultery?
The Wikipedia essay on adulterysays that it should be
decriminalized.
It is, in fact, alreadydecriminalized in many of the
countries, but it should bedecriminalized all over the
world of the countries.
But it should be decriminalizedall over the world.

(34:27):
Because you don't.
If you think of yourself as ananimal, animals don't marry.
There is no sanctity ofmarriage.
So, yes, the church in the Westhas to rethink.
The church in the West has torethink why it lost the Western

(34:50):
civilization and wasenthusiastic to bring Jesus back
by Y2K, through 1040 window,that if we reach the last
unreached people group, jesuswill come back.
That was driving the lausannemovement.

(35:11):
It was driving the missionarymovement.
The eschatology was driving,but eschatology itself was
mythology that had developed,particularly since the 1930s in
America, which did not evenunderstand the problems that
19th century, early 20th centuryChristianity had faced.

(35:38):
But coming back to Luke's pointof optimism, you know John
writes in 1 John, 2, 14, toyoung people young man, I write
to you because you're strong,the word of God lives in you.
You have overcome the evil one.
He repeats that in verse 13,verse 20, that you are strong

(36:03):
because the word of God lives inyou.
In verse 13, verse 20, that youare strong because the word of
god lives in you.
He that is in you is greaterthan he that is in the world.
That's the basis for optimism.
Uh, but that word is sharperthan double-edged sword.
No, no, that word is not goodenough.
It did reform Europe in the16th century.

(36:24):
It can no longer reform untilJesus comes on flying on a white
horse and the word comes out ofhis mouth.
That's like a sword.
That's the kind of mindset thathas paralyzed that.
No, we are not strong, we areweak.
We cannot overcome theAntichrist.

Scott Allen (36:47):
Vishal, just to clarify on that.
I'd love to hear your thoughtson this, because when I speak of
the kingdom of God, I speakabout it in very similar ways
that you have.
You know, I use the parable ofthe wheat and the weeds, for
example.
But normally the response thatI get is kind of one of two
things.
Number one is the kingdom ofGod isn't relevant at all until

(37:10):
Jesus comes back, as you said,in the future.
Then he will establish thiskingdom.
So we don't even, you know, weshouldn't even talk about it now
.
It's not relevant.
That's probably the dominantview in the church right.
Then there's this kind ofminority view that, no, actually

(37:30):
we will be advancing.
It's a very optimistic view.
We will be advancing God'skingdom and the Bible will bear
fruit and it will come kind offully realized on this side of
Jesus's return and, and then wewill.
We will, when he comes back,kind of hand the keys of the
kingdom over to him, havingestablished it fully on earth.
That's a minority view.

(37:53):
I run up against these two viewsand people often are saying to
me, scott, which of those twoviews do you subscribe to?
And I say, well, kind ofneither.
You know, I think I like thepicture of the wheat and the
weeds, that, yeah, the wheat cangrow and bear fruit and that
still can happen, but there'sstill going to be weeds in this

(38:16):
world until Jesus comes back.
You know, the imagery from thatparable is that he himself will
remove the weeds.
You know what's your thought onthat, vishal?
Because I keep running upagainst that, you know.
And I'm like that, vishal,because I keep running up
against that, you know and I'mlike, am I the?
only one that has this weirdview.

Vishal Mangalwadi (38:34):
No, the cut flower civilization is an
imagery that for more than athousand years European church
thought that the Roman Empirewas the kingdom of Christ.
They called it Christendom,because the popes were

(38:57):
performing the political ritualof making one of the kings
emperor.
So he's Holy Roman Empire.
He's defending the church.
So that ended with Napoleon.
When Napoleon ended it, I meanit had already begun, the
Reformation had given a big uhwound to the Holy Roman Empire.

(39:34):
The Thirty Year War from 1618 to1648, ended with Netherlands,
Holland, and Switzerlandbecoming sovereign nations free
from the Holy Roman Empire,which was neither holy nor Roman
.
But it was Spanish Empire whichthe Pope had called the Holy
Roman Empire.
So the Reformation had begun tobirth nations, ending empires.

(39:55):
But it was finally Napoleon whodefeated Spain and ended the
Holy Roman Empire.
So for almost 1200, 1300 yearsEuropean Church was wrong in
identity.
But there were solid theology,biblical reasons.

(40:15):
They had great scholars whowere justifying that the Holy
Roman Empire is crescendo.
But American Christianity hasswung to the other extreme.
But when Jesus came inBethlehem, he did not come as
the king, he came only as thesavior to die on the cross for

(40:37):
us.
Right when he entered Jerusalemhe had already said to the
twelve that before you have gonethrough all the villages and
towns of Israel, you will seethe Son of man come.
And then he comes intoJerusalem on a donkey, and all
the Gospels quote that.

(40:58):
This is fulfillment ofZechariah's promise that, behold
, your king is coming.
The Son of David is coming on adonkey.
He's meek, so did jesus come asthe king?
The charge on the cross againsthim it was that he is the king
of the jews.
That's what it meant.
That you're messiah, son of theliving god, that you are the

(41:21):
king.
All authority in heaven, onearth is given unto you, is
already given to him.
So is Jesus king, the corollaryof the kingship of Christ,
which American Christianity, thelarge majority, has suppressed?
That no, he came as the savior.

(41:43):
He did not come as the king,correct Vishal, and I hear that,
yeah, he came as the savior.

Scott Allen (41:46):
He did not come as the king Correct Vishal, and I
hear that, yeah, he's the kingin the church, so to speak, but
not beyond it.
I kind of continue to hear thatright?

Vishal Mangalwadi (41:54):
Well, revelation 1
ruler of the kings of the earth,he's the king of kings, the
lord of lords.
Every knee shall bow, includingCaesar's knee will bow.
That was the conflict betweenchurch and Caesar.
Is Caesar the Lord or is Jesusthe Lord?
So with kingship of Christbeing undermined by evangelical

(42:20):
Christianity in America,kingship of all believers is
undermined.
We will reign when he comesback.
We are not rulers today.
So the idea of second coming,which is called eschatology but

(42:47):
has really become a mythologythat has paralyzed the american
church.
The kingship of christ is gone,kingship of every believer is
gone.
But that is in fact the heartof american democracy.
When the constitution says we,the people, the constitution is
saying that citizens aresovereign, nation is sovereign.
Within the nation, citizenshave the ultimate authority.

(43:09):
They are sovereign.
Governments exist for thecitizens.
Citizen doesn't exist for thegovernment.
The president and the militaryofficers cannot trample upon the
rights and dignity of thesmallest individual.
So the whole system, the flower, the beautiful flower, which

(43:35):
respected inalienable rights ofevery individual, was built on
this understanding that thegospel is that the Lamb of God
shed his blood to purchaseslaves of Satan to make them

(43:56):
priests and kings.
The parable of the prodigal sonillustrates the gospel that he
has rebelled against the father.
He has become a slave.
He's looking after pigs,sleeping with them, eating their
pods.
He comes back to his senses,returns to his father that I'm

(44:21):
no longer worthy to be your son,but I'm starving.
Please make me a servant.
The father calls the servantschange his robe, give him a
shower, cut his hair, kill thefatted calf, bring the best
chefs, bring the musicians.
Let's have a party, because myson was lost.

(44:42):
Now he's found.
He was dead, he's alive, sothey have a great party.
The Jews, they drink a littlebit too much so they have good
sleep.
When they wake up next morning,what happens?
The son, prodigal son, nowreturned, reconciled son.

(45:03):
He wakes up, he goes to thefather's estate and works the
whole day.
In the evening, laborer'sservants get paid.
Sons don't get paid.
Why?
Because father has already saidto the older son that all that
is mine is thine.

(45:23):
You are the owner.
That's what it means to be theson.
Difference between servants andsons is servants have to be
told what to do.
Sons know their father, theyknow their father's mind, they
do what the father wants.
So, uh, you are doing God'swill.

(45:46):
That's the meaning of theprayer your kingdom come, your
will be done on earth as it isin heaven.
You've become a son means youhave become king.
If your father is king, you areking.
So what has happened to Americanevangelical Christianity is

(46:09):
that it forgot the kingship ofChrist.
Therefore it forgot thekingship of all believers.
That God's will should be donein Harvard University.
God's will should be done inWashington DC, in the Capitol
Hill, in Washington DC, in theCapitol Hill, and this is what

(46:32):
the church theologians must beteaching what God's will is.
But, as you would see,occasionally I come out strongly
on Facebook that seminarymovement is one of fundamental
problems of the USA.
Earlier, when the church wasbuilding Harvard, Princeton,

(46:56):
Yale, when the build at SyracuseUniversity of California, etc.
The university was trainingpriests and kings because the
Lamb of God shed his blood tomake us priests and kings.
Now, american Christianity isinterested only in seminaries.

(47:16):
We're training priests.
Well, let the devil train thekings.
We have nothing to do with theuniversities, with the law
colleges.
Train the kings.
We have nothing to do with theuniversities, with the law
colleges.
We don't want any Christian inthe Supreme Court because we
don't live in the dispensationof law.
So this corruption ofChristianity, where, if they're

(47:40):
saying that the West is now acut flower, this is because our
seminaries are training priests.
They are not training kings whowill make sure that their
father's will is being done onearth.
So, recovering the kingship ofChrist, recovering the kingship

(48:01):
of all believers, this would benecessary, these would be
necessary ideas to bring newlife into the church, and that's
actually the focus of what I'mdoing this year.
I'm hoping that by the end ofthis year 2025, we will be able

(48:22):
to launch Truthpedia, which willbe an online encyclopedia.
High school and university, sowe will give through our
encyclopedia.
We will compete with Wikipediaby giving away high school
curriculum for free.

(48:43):
Within America and Canada NorthAmerica there are four million
high school students.
Imagine we give them all a freehigh school curriculum, and
this would be better thananything that exists now, which
means that a student who isstudying Einstein's theory of
relativity Einstein will himselfcome on screen through

(49:06):
animation and teach his theory,and then other physicists will
come and show what's wrong with,what is the limitations of
Einstein's theory.
Newton will come himself, orShakespeare will come, or
Rousseau will come onlinethrough animation.
So we've created thiscurriculum and give it away for
free to undermine the publiceducation.

(49:30):
We're creating an alternative.
But every church will need tohave academic mentors, pastors.
It is homeschooling mom who isoverseeing, so she will get a BA
or an MA in education andapplied theology because she's

(49:53):
overseeing the education of thechild and overseeing and
teaching the bible and characterto the child.
So she is a pastor to her ownchildren.
So this role of the academicpastor and this is every home or

(50:14):
every church.
Where you cannot have ahomeschooling, you can have a
church educational co-op withfour or five families bringing
their children together and oneof the mothers or one of the
fathers playing the role of thehomeschooling mom or overseer of
the education, giving them BAor an MA degree in education, so

(50:38):
that no liberal can say thatyou can't teach because you're
not qualified.
We'll give them thequalification and that alone
will finance the entireoperation.
Because if a million parentspaid $1,000 a year to get a
bachelor's degree or a master'sdegree in education and applied

(51:00):
theology, which is 10 times lessthan what Grand Canyon is
charging Grand Canyon ischarging $10,000 as a minimum
annual fee for BA we can give itfor $1,000.
A million families paying$1,000 each, getting free

(51:20):
curriculum and a bachelor's ormaster's university degree is a
billion dollars a year which canfinance the entire thing.
So what it costs to build ahigh school.
In that amount of money we canrevolutionize global education
and this problem of cut flowers,flowers of Western

(51:46):
civilizations which have beencut because the church gave up
the life of the mind to thedevil.
Wow, vishal, I love that.

Scott Allen (51:57):
So that's really the project that you're focused
on right now, which you justdescribed.
Yes.
And you've got that worked outin some detail.
It sounds like as well, vishalRight.

Vishal Mangalwadi (52:09):
By the end of this week we should have the
technology being developed by ateam of technologists.
Personally, I'm continuing towork on several book titles, so
I'm finishing revising a book onIslam.
But, yes, the overall theme isthat by the end of 2025, let's

(52:31):
have an alternative to theeducation that has existed for
500 years or 1,000 years, usingthe latest available technology,
mobilizing the global body ofChrist.
The biggest resistance willcome from the American church,

(52:52):
because the seminary movementhas corrupted the American
church.
The seminary movement has saidthat it is not our job to
educate, it is the government'sjob to educate.
Our job is to save souls,prepare them for heaven, prepare
them for rapture.
So the whole mindset.

(53:12):
But thankfully this is notthere, as you know, in Africa,
in Latin America, in Asia.
So there will be resistancefrom theologians.

John Bottimore (53:33):
So, there will be resistance from theologians
in North America, but hopefullyit will change.
It will wither away.
Project and movement soundsvery much like a larger and more
ambitious version of the visionthat you had a decade and a
half or so ago that resulted inthe Trinity Education Project

(53:57):
for that period of time.
Is that correct?
I love the idea of educationfor all at a very low cost and
overseen by these parents andadvocates and others, rather
than the professionals.
So it seems very much like amuch more powerful and high-tech

(54:21):
pervasive approach to education, like Trinity Education was 15
years or so ago, is that?

Vishal Mangalwadi (54:32):
right.
These were in fact the ideasthat Darrell Miller, bob Moffitt
, bob Osborne and Scott Allen wediscussed in YWAM, especially
in Tyler, texas, when we wereteaching there, and that grew
and flowered in many differentways and Scott was with me when

(54:58):
we went to Indonesia many yearsago.
There were 3,600 church schoolsin Indonesia at that time that
were serving the poor, but thepoor couldn't pay enough fee for
those families to have forthose schools to have qualified
teachers.
So these schools serving thepoor in Indonesia were dependent

(55:23):
on unqualified teachers.
And then we began a trampledprogram to give to the teachers,
while they're on the job, ateacher's training, a bachelor's
degree.
So that program continues, butnow we are expanding it to give
to millions of homeschoolingparents the same possibility to

(55:49):
become professional and learnexcellence on how to educate.
So I'm not very familiar withTrinity education.
Are you thinking of what Amandawas doing?

John Bottimore (56:02):
Yeah, exactly that's what Bob Moffitt and
Amanda did and I think it has avery similar to what you
described.

Vishal Mangalwadi (56:10):
Yes, yes, amanda spent a lot of time with
us in developing.
Initially we called it CacheChurch, which grew into Trinity.
But Amanda found at that pointthat it was very difficult to
give a college-level,credentialed education in Africa

(56:36):
because Bob was working moreoutside of America and there
wasn't support from within theAmerican church for that vision.
And so, yes, caché was exactlythat vision.
It came out of a conference wehad in Florida, which Amanda did

(57:01):
the organizational work.
Bob was there.
And then we had a few moregatherings, particularly one in
Desert Palm Springs inCalifornia where we requested
Bob to.
I was leaving for Cambridge sowe asked Bob to lead a cachet

(57:24):
which changed.
So, yes, that was the vision,but it remained a non-degree
program, a non-formal program.
But now we have five or sixuniversities in America that
have actually agreed to givedegrees and just last week we

(57:48):
call it Virtues Campus, that achurch will have a Virtues
Campus, so legally independentof the church but under the
moral, theological authority ofthe church.
So the best program at themoment within America that is
running is in Calvary Chapel,old Bridge, new Jersey.

(58:10):
But many other churches areopening up but it has been very
hard to get the American churchto responsibility for this, the
churches that are spendingmillions of dollars in buildings

(58:32):
.
In $1 million we can actuallychange, even in $100,000,
$200,000, we can change globaleducation, but the capacity is
there, the vision is not thereand the vision has been
corrupted and blurred bytheological errors that have

(58:54):
grown.
So, yes, you're right thatcachet or Trinity education was
exactly the same vision, whichthe time was not ready at that
moment and it took much longerfor us to get it.
Thank you.

Scott Allen (59:09):
Just to back out of some of these details of
particular formats that this hastaken.
I really do want to applaud youbecause I do think if we're
going to recover this optimisticChrist is King, christ is King,

(59:32):
you know freedom-based approachto our theology and to
Christianity, it really doesneed to start with the next
generation, with the children,and I think that's—so what
you're doing here is reallyvital.
I just want to kind of continueto applaud you in that you know
what form that ends up takingprobably will take a variety of
forms.
That ends up taking probablywill take a variety of forms, I
do think.
Well, first of all, vishal, isthere a way that you mentioned

(59:53):
that this program is up andrunning?
Is there a way that people cantap into that yet or not?

Vishal Mangalwadi (59:57):
yet yes.

Scott Allen (59:59):
How would they get more information on that?

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:00:02):
In the USA.
Just search forVirtuesCampuscom.

Scott Allen (01:00:09):
VirtuesCampuscom.
Virtuescampuscom.
Okay.

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:00:12):
Yeah, great, In Indonesia it's Trampleorg.
Okay.
You met some of the peoplethere.
Yeah.
In Kenya they're still callingit Virtues Campus.
So in fact, tomorrow Tuesday,no, wednesday on the 4th of June

(01:00:32):
, the Virtuous Campus is havinga meeting Zoom meeting in India.
But in Indonesia is where wegot the big push, where a whole
Pentecostal denomination 240leaders spent four or five days
together and decided they wantevery one of their 30,000

(01:00:56):
churches to become centers ofeducation, because in 50 years
the church had not built evenone high school, one seminary,
let alone a college.
It was the fastest growingchurch.
So we have many countries inLatin America.

(01:01:16):
I was there in Brazil a fewmonths ago with 15,000 young
people coming from 3,000 or sochurches.
They are ready to have everychurch become a center of
education, because there are noChristian universities in many
of the Latin American countries.

(01:01:37):
So we can turn every churchinto a center of education
because the world's bestteachers will come online.
You don't need to have too manyrooms and you don't need to
hire too many professors, butyou do need a few universities
which will give degreesinitially and high school

(01:01:58):
diplomas.
But soon, from the verybeginning, we will create a new
system of accreditation andgrading which we don't need to
get into that detail now.

Scott Allen (01:02:11):
Yeah Well, I just think I just agree with you that
you know, strategically, whenwe I Vishal, I think that part
of what the church has beenstruggling with in the West is
that since the Enlightenment itreally just has been reacting to
its kind of, you know, itssidelining influence.
Right, the secularism becamedominant, the church was kind of

(01:02:33):
pushed to the sidelines and forthe last 150, 200 years it's
just been kind of in areactionary mode to that huge
shift.
And if we're going to changenow we can't just be reacting to
enlightenment, secularism whichis dying, you know it's giving
way to just outright tyranny andall sorts of other evil things
Went up in a mushroom cloud.

(01:02:53):
Went up in a mushroom cloud, sowe can't just sit here and react
to it anymore.
We have to go back, I think,don't we Vishal, and kind of
recover that pre-Enlightenmentkind of mindset.
And I think it's a lot ofChristians when they think about
this.
They think, well, we've got to.
You know, I mean sometimes Ihear this in this Christian

(01:03:14):
nationalism discussion We've gotto take hold of the reins of
power and pass laws and do allthis political stuff and I'm
like, no, that's got to comemuch later.
You know, you've got to startwith kids and mindsets and you
know, only then will it be ableto be reflected in laws again.

John Bottimore (01:03:28):
It's returning to our roots, literally is what
we're talking about our earlierroots and our roots from
Scripture that we've talkedabout here, with the seed and
the flourishing seed.

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:03:37):
Thank you yes , my main comment would be that
many Christians think obviouslyevery family has to begin with
preschool, primary school, highschool.
But at a cultural level, youcannot fight Harvard and

(01:03:58):
Princeton and Yale with highschools, with primary schools,
with home schools.
If the ecosystem is being theeducational ecosystem, the
knowledge bank is Wikipedia.
That's where you have toconfront because your Christian

(01:04:18):
high school students, whenthey're writing an essay,
they're using, they're dependenton Wikipedia.
And if the Wikipedia is sayingthat intelligent design is
pseudoscience, you need essayson encyclopedia which are
telling you that no, no, no,everything in nature is pointing

(01:04:42):
to intelligence, etc.
So I would say that everyhomeschooler needs an
encyclopedia.
So DNA, for example, all thetremendous teaching that you
have given, you have written,bob has written, daryl has

(01:05:06):
written.
All of this needs to be put inan encyclopedia, out of which AI
will create 20-minute lessons,30-minute, 45-minute lesson
plans.
That what is a work ethic, whatis Monday, christianity, et
cetera, which can be at collegelevel or high school level, or

(01:05:28):
junior, a primary school level.
So if all the material wasthere on an encyclopedia, it's
available to the whole world inmany different languages and can
be used at educational level.
So we are simultaneouslystarting with an encyclopedia.

(01:05:55):
In order to support primaryschools, home schools and our
South Korean brothers, they areinvesting money and effort to
build a million micro schools,to have every evangelist and
pastor established a microschool, which is getting into

(01:06:18):
the church, the idea that thechurch can take care of the mind
of the little children.

Scott Allen (01:06:27):
Well, in addition to encyclopedia, let me
encourage you to also take onthe dictionary.
I mean, that's the subject ofmy most recent book, vishal Ten
Words to Transform Our BrokenWorld.

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:06:41):
Absolutely.

Scott Allen (01:06:42):
And we need to recover biblical true biblical
definitions.
This is something our Americanfounding fathers understood
Absolutely, and so that's alsocritical at this time.
When you're talking aboutschools, we need encyclopedias
and dictionaries that are rootedin the truth.
Yes, I'm sure you would agreewith that.

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:07:00):
Yes, absolutely.
Vishal, can I squeeze in aquestion?

Luke Allen (01:07:06):
I just it's an itch.
A few minutes ago you weretalking about how you're
presenting this education.
Third education revolutions, Ibelieve what you call this whole
project.
Is that still the title of it?

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:07:18):
Yes, we do have a specific title in mind
for the encyclopedia, whichprobably is not good to share in
public.

Luke Allen (01:07:29):
Okay, got it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, saving that,but anyways, you mentioned that
the American Church does nothave a vision for this.
How does the American Churchregain a vision for this?

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:07:42):
The church has the capacity and
individually and Bob Moffitt didit and David Glesney who's
running Virtuous Campus he'sbeen doing it for 15 years.
You talk to pastors, elders,they all agree that, yes, this
needs to happen, but thenthey're all so busy with so many
things that the most importantthing of sowing the seeds in the

(01:08:07):
next generation, they don'ttake responsibility.
So I'm becoming more ruthlessor brutal in saying that
American theology is the sourceof the problem.
The seminaries are the sourceof the problem.

(01:08:27):
You're training priests, you'renot training kings, whereas the
Lamb of God shed his blood tomake us priests and kings.
It is American sociology whichhas corrupted American theology
Two ways.
The doctrine of separation ofchurch and state has become the

(01:08:49):
doctrine of separation of churchof church and education,
church and governance of God andgovernance.
Should God's will be done inthe political sphere.
Separation of church and statehas come to mean separation of
God and governance, and this isa corruption of theology.

(01:09:13):
The commission to the church.
Jesus says three times in John14, 15 and 16, that I will
baptize you with the spirit oftruth.
I am the truth.
I can teach you all truth, butyou can't bear it now.

(01:09:36):
So I will baptize you with thespirit of truth.
He will lead you into all truth, because all truth is God's
truth, and he will bear witnessto the truth.
And he will bear witness to thetruth, you will bear witness to
the truth.
This truth is what the Americanchurch has given up because it

(01:09:59):
has misunderstood salvation byfaith alone.
Faith enslaves, truth liberates.
That's why we must believe whatis true.
If you believe in a stone, yourfaith doesn't save you.
If you believe in a demon, yourfaith doesn't save you.

(01:10:21):
Jewish faith enslaved the Jews,and that's what Jesus said to
the Pharisees that you areslaves of the law.
Christian faith enslaved earlyChristians.
That was Paul's fight inGalatians that these brothers
who are coming from James, fromJerusalem, to circumcise you.

(01:10:43):
They want to enslave you.
Christ has come to set you free.
Don't allow yourself to beenslaved by religion.
So religion, whether Judaism orChristianity, can become
slavery.
And that is what the reformerswere fighting against in the
Middle Ages, the Reformation,that Christianity had become the

(01:11:04):
means of slavery.
It had blinded the eyes.
So the Reformation isconfrontation.
It's fight.
It's not pleasant because itbecomes very unpleasant.
So truth has been given upbecause in this Reformation
there was no slogan sola veritastruth alone.

(01:11:28):
No such slogan was neededbecause the Catholics and
Protestants were not fightingover truth.
Both agreed that truth must bebelieved.
The slogan faith alone was withreference to whether faith
saves or works are alsonecessary.
The Roman Catholics were sayingworks are also necessary.

(01:11:54):
In that context a slogan hadrisen faith alone.
But American evangelicalismmisunderstands.
It says truth is irrelevant.
So let Harvard teach it, wewill just cultivate faith.

Scott Allen (01:12:12):
Vishal, that's a corruption of faith, not just
truth, because biblically, faithis faith in what is true.
That's why you can have faithin it, that's why you can trust
in it, because that's the OldTestament word for faith.
It's something that's solid,trustworthy and true, and the
New Testament, word pistis, isevidence of something that's
true.
So you're right.

(01:12:35):
I mean, I think we've got torecover the word truth, but also
faith in this bigger sense.
Yeah, so just add that to whatyou're saying.
I agree, thank you.

John Bottimore (01:12:46):
Vishal, if I could take us back to the
beginning of the sun settingmetaphor that you talked about
and ask where and why is the sunrising other places, and it
doesn't have to be just ageographical answer.
More importantly is what arethe conditions where the sun
rises?
What can we learn from that?

(01:13:06):
How can we learn something inthe West that we can learn and
emulate?
Do we have the humility to doso in the Western church?
What do you think?

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:13:18):
I think, say in India there is much
persecution because so manypeople are converting to Christ,
and most of these are poorpeople from lower caste.

(01:13:39):
There are some educated, highercastes as well, and these are
people.
There must be 100,000 or morenew churches that have sprung up
in the middle of thepersecution throughout India.
200 years ago, when Westernmissionaries came, they built

(01:14:02):
mission schools.
Some of them have very highquality, but now we don't have
the capital to put up thebuildings, to hire teachers.
So this new generation is verykeen to rise up because the they

(01:14:23):
don't have properties.
They don't have properties,they don't have business
experience, they don't haveequity to get bank loans, etc.
The real wealth that they haveis in the hearts and minds of
their young people.
That's wisdom that has to bedeveloped.
So the West developed becausethe church educated.
Protestant movement educatedevery child.

(01:14:47):
Protestant movement educatedevery child and that was what I
call the second educationrevolution that Martin Luther
started.
So in South America, LatinAmerica, in Africa, in Asia, the
church is hungry and let megive them an opportunity that

(01:15:08):
look, we can build up thepersonal, the minds of your
young people, because that'swhere the true wealth is, those
ideas which they buy will haveconsequences economic
consequences, politicalconsequences, economic

(01:15:29):
consequences, politicalconsequences.
So this will come into US aswell.
This is one very good part ofthe fight against Ivy League
universities, because theproblem is not just Ivy League
universities, the problem isalso high school education, et
cetera, etc.
But what the politicalpoliticians can do is to help

(01:15:51):
demolish the source of evil.
But it is the church which hasto take the responsibility to
baptize, fill the nation withthe wisdom and knowledge of God.
So that's where awakening thechurch, and this is going to get

(01:16:12):
us into a lot of conflicts withseminaries and theologians.
That is this really what?
And the missionary movement?
Because so much of themissionary movement has been
driven since Lausanne 74, thatwe can bring Jesus back by Y2K

(01:16:33):
by finishing the task, whichmeans taking the gospel to all
the unreached people groups.
This has been a particularmissiology which has driven the
mission and therefore the energyof the missionary movement was
diverted and therefore theenergy of the missionary
movement was diverted.
It was all focused on bringingJesus back.

(01:16:53):
Now the goalpost has beenshifted to 2033.
We can bring Jesus back by 2033by finishing the task, but
that's an eschatology which isreally a mythology driving
American missions, but we haveto see that God's mission is to

(01:17:14):
fill the earth with theknowledge of God as the waters
cover the sea, and that's wherea conflict with the American
evangelical establishment has tohappen.
Vishal, we are running long andI appreciate your generosity of

(01:17:36):
time I would love to get onemore question if you don't mind.
It's helpful to know.
You know because again I wantto take us back to the beginning
days of the DNA.
You were influential in shapingour you know kind of the way we
thought about the ministry, themovement, and I think we're at
a turning point right now at theDNA as well.
You know, the founding fathersof the DNA Darren Bob, you know

(01:18:00):
are passing the torch to ayounger generation and there's
other things that are happening.
What do you think is importantfor us as a DNA movement, given
where we're at right now?
What should we be thinkingabout and focusing on?
What advice would you have forus, Vishal?
I know that's.
The first request would be that all the
material that not only has beenpublished by Bob and Darrow and

(01:18:24):
you, but also thought spoken, weshould put it all together in
various forms in encyclopedia sothat, both at the university
level but also at high schoollevel, people can benefit from
it in many different languages.

(01:18:45):
Then the people that you haveimpacted and you've had a huge
impact in many countries,particularly Africa and Latin
America those people could begiven the possibility to teach

(01:19:06):
this content, integrating itinto the curriculum for at
school level, primary schoollevel, high school level, uh
college level and uh seminarylevel.
So bible teaching will be verycentral to the whole program,
but the Bible will be related toall of life, as you emphasize

(01:19:29):
it, that for Monday morning, theBible and spirituality.
So I think the goodwill thatyou have given, giving people
technological means and trainingto pass on these seeds and
nurture them, apply them, wouldbe a wonderful step.

Scott Allen (01:19:56):
Well, I appreciate that, vishal, we can talk more
about that.
I would, of course, becompletely excited about that
idea, working together with youto play some role or part.
What about the American church?
Again, I've felt for some timenow God kind of directing us
back towards a focus on theWestern church, the American

(01:20:17):
church.
You know, as you know,historically we've been working
in the South, you know Africa,asia, latin America, but, as you
said, there's just such a needin the West at this time for the
Church to stop reacting againstEnlightenment, secularism and
kind of recover that earliervision of what it meant to be

(01:20:38):
the Church, even though there isa resistance to it.
Any thoughts for you on that,vishal?
Because it seems to me we can't.
We really do need to.
There needs to be some kind ofa reformation, a change at the
level of our leadership in theChurch in the West.

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:20:55):
Well, god has given you gifted writers and
teachers, and that has impactedgroups such as YWAM has impacted
groups such as YWAM, but notyet penetrated the church

(01:21:16):
leadership itself.
So I think it may be time for usto meet together and the folks
in YWAM, particularly some ofour mutual friends.
They had already said that theywould like to organize a five,
six days of meeting where wemeet together to consider this

(01:21:47):
to as soon as within this week,our foundation that we are
seeking to create to own thisencyclopedia, this foundation,
will make a positive decision.
The technical team is alreadyready.
They wanted to start yesterday,on Monday.
They are ready to get started.

(01:22:08):
So in six months we have thetechnology, like Wikipedia,
which is actually functioning,but this larger question of how
do we pool our resourcestogether and we have a lot to
learn from Christians who arealready there in school level,

(01:22:29):
college level, university level,including in secular
universities.
We have a lot to learn and gain.
So it is a question ofmobilizing the global body of
Christ for reforming the church,the church, and this will

(01:22:57):
happen.
So let's consider that we don'thave to go to Kona for this
meeting if your team can hostbecause I love your name DNA
Disciple Nation Alliance.
You're meeting in Panama soon,but I think coming together for
another four or five days afterthese 30 years of interactions

(01:23:18):
we have had to think about thenext phase would be very good.
I think 30, 40 people comingtogether would be very good.

Scott Allen (01:23:27):
Yeah, I would love that.
And, vishal, I know you haveconnections with people like
Pastor Luke Hayashi, teo Hayashiin Brazil.
Some young pastors who havethis vision and I think are
critical to this next generation.
Maybe they could be a part ofthat as well.

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:23:45):
Yeah, we can meet there because they have a
very good campus.

Scott Allen (01:23:49):
Yeah, yeah love the idea, vichal.

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:23:51):
Let's talk more about that, okay sure what
can we leave with our listenerstoday as far as some takeaways,
vichal, uh, you know it is god'smission to fill the earth with
his wisdom, knowledge, with hisspirit, and let let's embrace
that and team up with him.

(01:24:13):
So he wants to baptize us withhis spirit so that, through his
servant, his wisdom andknowledge might fill the earth.

Scott Allen (01:24:22):
I love that and let's be optimistic.
And when Jesus gave that greatcommission, that was a
commission to go to be active,to use your agency to bring
light into a dark world and notjust hang on until Jesus comes
back.
So we need to recover that samespirit and optimism, and that's

(01:24:45):
really critical right now.
So, vishal, thank you for allthat you're doing to that end
and just the incredible resourceyou are to the church with your
writing and your thinking andyour strategy.
We are grateful to call youfriends and I look forward to
picking up a conversation aboutthe meeting in Brazil, although
I like Kona, that'd be kind ofnice too.
Yes, All right, listen.

(01:25:07):
Michel, god bless you.
Say hi to Ruth and thank youagain for the time and John and
Luke, thank you as well.

Vishal Mangalwadi (01:25:13):
Thank you, john, we didn't let you talk too
much.

John Bottimore (01:25:17):
Thank you, vishal, I loved it.
It was wonderful to be with youtoday.
Thank you, all right.

Scott Allen (01:25:21):
Yeah, we'll be in touch, Vishal, and again all of
our listeners.
Thank you so much for tuninginto another episode of Ideas
have Consequences.
This is the podcast.
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