How to Disciple Your Church in a Biblical Worldview | Doug Atterbury - Ideas Have Consequences

Episode Transcript
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Doug Atterbury (00:03):
I think practically the only way to vie
for people's attention is to viefor people's attention.
They're going to spend theirtime scrolling through social
media and watching pointless TVshows and engaging in secular
ideologies, passively andactively.
We should be in the battlefield, which is how the scripture
describes it the war front ofthe battlefield of ideas, for

(00:25):
the sake of our people's heartsand minds.

Luke Allen (00:35):
Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world, to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.

(00:55):
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.

Scott Allen (01:13):
Well, welcome everyone to another episode of
Ideas have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen, I'm thepresident of the DNA and I'm so
glad to be with you again todayand joined today by team members
Dwight Vogt, luke Allen.
Hi guys, and, as always, goodto be with you, and today we're
joined by a really special guest, doug Atterbury, who Luke and I

(01:38):
heard recently give a sermon, amessage, at our church here in
Bend, oregon, eastmont CommunityChurch.
Doug is a staff pastor at avery large and influential
evangelical church in SouthernCalifornia, in the Mission Viejo
area, called Compass BibleChurch.
Doug is a native of SouthernCalifornia, received his

(02:01):
bachelor's degree in Bible andtheology from Cal Baptist
University and his master's intheology from Talbot School of
Theology over there at the Biolacampus, and over the years Doug
has served in a variety ofpastoral positions in various
churches.
He's married to Kelly, has twodaughters, allie and Emmy.

(02:24):
And Doug, I'm so grateful thatyou can be with us today.
Thanks for taking the time.

Thank you for having me.
It's a delight to be here.

Yeah Well, doug, we want to talk to you about
biblical worldview.
When you shared at Eastmont,you gave just a really great
basic message in.
What does it mean to thinkChristianly, you know, and to
put on the mind of Christ and tobe equipped to understand the

(02:53):
basics of a biblical worldviewand then live that out right in
your family and your vocationand whatnot.
It was so in line with what weteach and believe at the DNA.
We're just so thrilled to haveyou with us and especially
because you're a pastor at alarge church in the United
States, we wanted to kind ofpick your brain, if you will,

(03:16):
and just get your thoughts onbiblical worldview, discipleship
as it relates to churchministry in the United States in
particular.
This is an area that we have ahuge heart for and see such a
need for and need in, I guess.
I'd like to start by just askingkind of a very broad question.

(03:39):
You clearly understand biblicalworldview.
If you clearly understandbiblical worldview, and how does
that focus on biblicalworldview, how would that change
the way a church understandsits just basic mission and
purpose?
You know how, for example,would it change the way that a

(04:01):
church, a local church, measureswhat success looks like?
I often feel like, well, we hadGeorge Barna on just a little
background to this question.
George Barna, you know, does alot of research into biblical
worldview thinking and theAmerican church and you know his
research is, you know, prettygloomy.
You know he basically findsthat most Christians don't have
a biblical worldview, don'tunderstand the basics of a

(04:23):
biblical worldview.
Many pastors don't have in theUnited States a biblical
worldview and when we talked tohim about that recently he said
it's just not something thatfactors into how a church
understands its mission.
When it comes to successmeasurements and its mission and
purpose, it typically has to dowith activities in the church

(04:45):
growth of the church, number ofpeople in the pews programs, but
not so much.
biblical worldview doesn'treally factor in terms of
discipleship.
It just got me thinking, youknow, how does this emphasis
change the way a church wouldunderstand its mission and
purpose?
So what are your thoughts onthat?

its mission and purpose.
So what are your thoughts onthat?
Yeah, I think the trend doesseem to be that most people,
most churches, are looking forthose superficial metrics of
numbers and seats and pews andthat kind of thing, and you know
how many programs they've gotgoing on.
And for us, we try to be verygrounded in the Great Commission
and we've tried to really parseout the Great Commission in

(05:27):
such a way that defines ourpurpose, our trajectory and our
mission.
And we take very seriously thepart about teaching them to
observe all that I commandedthem to do.

(05:55):
That imperative of Jesus there.
This idea to us is worldviewformation, because they need to
be taught to be obedient in theculture and in the time that God
has placed them in, and so itbecomes actually the core part
of the mission of the GreatCommission for us to do the work
of discipleship training thatgoes into worldview formation,
for us to be able to fulfillthat aspect of the Great
Commission.
So the way we formed it in ourchurch is that we're reaching.
That's a goal.
We want to make disciples.
Of course, we want to see newconverts.

(06:15):
We want to see people get saved.
That's a core principle of ourchurch.
But we want to make sure thatwe go further in that and not
just teach them biblicaldoctrine, but teach them
biblical doctrine as it relatesto where they live, how they
operate in their daily lives andin the culture.
And so I think it's interwovenin the Great Commission in such

(06:38):
a way that it should actually bea core part of our mission as a
church all churches to do that.

That's so good.
Yeah, I do think there'sconfusion.
I mean, you go right to theGreat Commission when we talk
about purpose of church and Ioften ask people when I'm
teaching around the world, hey,what is the Great Commission?
And the answer I get backalmost uniformly is well, save
souls and plant churches.
And I said no, no, read it.
What is he saying?

(07:04):
Well, save souls and plantchurches.
I'm like no, that's not what hesays.
What does he say?
He says disciple all thenations, right, and you know we
are the Disciple NationsAlliance, right.
So there's something biggerthan just the individual, as
much as it is important for theindividual to be saved.

(07:24):
Bigger than just the individual, as much as it is important for
the individual to be saved,jesus is bringing up the concept
of nations and then, yeah, likeyou say, teaching them to obey
nations, everything that I'vecommanded.
It strikes me that that's sucha basic command of Christ, basic
to the church, and still notunderstood well Again, I do
think.

I think it's.

Sorry, go ahead I just think it's hard.
Yeah right, it's hard.

And so it's easy to say you know, we had this.
Many people get saved at ourlast program or our last big
event.
But discipling takes a lot oftime and a lot of energy, and
especially for pastors it can bepainful, it can be wearisome,
and so it's easier to focus onmetrics that check the box and

(08:15):
make us feel good and wherediscipleship can be ugly and raw
and real, and so that's whyit's just not done as much.

Yeah, and you bring up another thing I'd like to
explore a little bit.
You talked about, you know,teaching the core doctrines of
the faith.
Is there a?

distinction in your mind between core doctrines
and a biblical worldview.
I guess it's not an absolutedistinction, but I do think that
the foundation of all Christianworldview is good biblical
theology.
It's a good understanding ofthe text and understanding the
theological implications.
But I think worldview at leaston its downstream effects, as I

(09:00):
like to call it, the worldviewhas downstream effects that once
you have a formed theology,that theology needs to now
influence everything that you doin your life and so it does
speak to politics and it doesspeak to the things that we see
in the news andit does speak to those things,

(09:21):
it speaks to them downstream.
So I think a lot of people liketo make a distinction between
them saying we don't talk aboutpolitics, we like to talk about
theology, we like to talk aboutcore truths and we don't like to
talk about these downstreameffects.
And I think that that's adisservice to people, because a
fully-orbed as I would call it,biblical worldview encompasses

(09:42):
the entirety of the world thatwe live in the reality that God
has given us.
And so theology is thefoundation, biblical theology is
the foundation, but ultimately,as those rivers flow from that
core, it should reach everysingle aspect, every single bank

(10:02):
in our lives.

Yeah, I've been thinking personally more about
this.
When we teach a biblicalworldview, our opening session
is called the Transforming Storyand the word story has always
been important to us, that whata worldview is, in a sense is a
story of reality.
It's the story and it is astory.

(10:24):
It tells a story.
In the beginning God createdthe heavens and the earth and
our story encompasses, as manyhave observed you know, the
creation, the fall, theredemption, the consummation,
these different kind of chapters.
If you will, there's, you know,important—anyways telling it as
a story, with the understandingthat everyone kind of lives out
of a story, whether you're aChristian or not.

(10:46):
Jordan Peterson recently hasmade a big deal out of talking
this way and I appreciate it.
You know there's a secular story, there's an animistic story,
there's a fatalistic story.
We all kind of live out ofthese big stories of reality and
I often think, you know, whenwe're trying to disciple people
in a biblical worldview, talkingabout it as a story, as the

(11:08):
true story, is kind of reallyhelpful in a way that you don't
necessarily get if you just kindof come at it as doctrines.
Let's talk about, you know,these five or 10 or 20 core
doctrines of the Christian faith.
You know nothing—I mean, ofcourse they go together right.
These doctrines are superimportant, don't misunderstand
me.
But if they're not talked aboutin the way—in this kind of

(11:32):
story way I sometimes wonder ifwe're doing a disservice to our
teaching on this and alsotalking about how the fact that,
yeah, everyone kind offunctions out of a particular
story, you know not, you know.
So I don't know if you have anythoughts or reactions to that.
I just I'm kind of lookingforward to just kind of running
some of my thoughts by you, doug, while we've got you on here.

Yeah, sure, yeah , that's an interesting idea.
Yeah, I think I think that youdon't need to encapsulate all
doctrinal training into thatstory motif, but I get your idea
.
I think worldview is easier tounderstand when it's in the

(12:16):
story and I do fully agree withthat a place, especially in
theological education and evenwithin the church and normal
pulpit ministry where it'sessential to clarify key central
doctrines.
But I teach a class onChristian worldview here at the

(12:37):
school that we run and inprepping for that class I was
reading through Alan Wolter'sAlbert Wolter's book, I believe
is his name, and so it's areformed work.
But and he he breaks down justcreation, fall, redemption as a
motif that the whole story runsthrough.
And I think I think when youhave those kind of overarching

(13:01):
story narratives, andunderstanding something.
It just helps bring cohesion toa worldview more than anything.
So I think you could piecetogether a coherent and robust
worldview by doing doctrinaltraining and reading texts and
putting pieces into places.
But there's something abouthaving the cohesion of thinking

(13:24):
beginning to end andunderstanding where we are and
how we fit into that timeline ofwhat God's doing that helps
people feel connected to itAbsolutely so.
I do like frameworks to betools for teaching.

Yeah, and I think God kind of made us to love
stories.
You know that.
You know, and this is part ofthe reason that so much of the
Scriptures are told as stories.
You know parables and stories.
It's a narrative that kind ofhas a storyline to it.
I know, when my kids were youngLuke and others, they just, you
know, Dad tell us a story, tellus a story.

(14:01):
You know I read them.
I have no more stories to tell,but I was always struck by how
much they loved stories.
That's just something God, Ithink, built into us.
You know, and then the factthat the whole, the whole of
everything, is this amazingstory actually is kind of
powerful.
It is the story of reality.
The biblical worldview is astory.

(14:22):
Anyways, I don't want to, yeah.

Western thinkers are so linear that I— Right,
yeah.
We seem to have abandoned someaspect of story and when we get
back to it it does seem toconnect.
And we all do it with ourchildren and I'm a kidsman
pastor at our church, so I dowork with our kids as well.

Yeah.
Thank you, I have a questionrelated, I think Jump in Dwight

(16:18):
yeah, yeah, doug.

Dwight Vogt (16:22):
so when you start your worldview, class, how?
Do you begin, what assumptionsdo you think people bring to you
that you have to eitherimmediately address?
I mean, are they thinking it'sat the all?
What do you say?
How do?

you start.
So my primary audience for myworldview class is a gap year
program that we've put togetherat church, so it is high school
seniors and freshmen in collegeand we get everything from the
church kid who's from our churchwith a great theology to
someone who is just starting off.

(16:55):
And so my starting place inworldview is trying to get them
to understand what I'm eventalking about in worldview and
really trying to get them tounderstand what I'm even talking
about in worldview and reallytrying to get them to understand
what a worldview is Just theconcept of worldview.
And I see light bulbs clickingon, clicking on, clicking on,

(17:16):
and my favorite definition isactually from James Sire and
it's kind of his seconddefinition.
He has one in his primary bookand then he has another one that
he's further teased out.
But talking about the idea thata worldview is something that
is something that's not justhoused in the heart or housed in
the head, it's also housed inthe heart, something that can be

(17:40):
known or unknown, conscious orsubconscious, that it could be
consistent or inconsistentlyheld, and then showing them
examples of that, I think, iswhere I like to start to say
every single person in the roomhas the worldview.
Whether you realize it or not,you have it, and so the question
now becomes is it biblical andis it in alignment with Christ

(18:04):
or is it not?
Now becomes is it biblical andis it in alignment with Christ
or is it not?
That is the place that I thinkis helpful for them to say I
have a worldview and myworldview might be ill-informed,
it might be incorrect in someareas, and I need it to be
correct and biblical.
And I have it, whether Irealize it or not, because I
think some people just think Idon't have a worldview, it's

(18:24):
just this.
Or they think that theirChristian upbringing has fully
formed a Christian worldview,when it really hasn't.
So just worldview as concept tome is where I start out the
gate.
And then I just try to ground mystudents in a Christian
worldview in terms of thosethree or four overarching kind

(18:45):
of story narratives of creation,fall, redemption.
And then I go one step furtherand add restoration to that.
But I think that they just needsome.
They're doing this at the sametime that they're doing theology
, so they're getting Christiandoctrine taught to them at the
same time.
So my goal is to just make surethat they have heard what it is

(19:06):
, and then I spend the rest ofmy class pretty much telling
them all the ways that this cango wrong, to prove to them that
they don't have as well of aformed Christian worldview as
they think they do, by showingthem some of the errors in their
thinking when it comes tosanctity for human life and how

(19:28):
they think of humans and howthey think of goodness in humans
and sinfulness in humans.
I just want to show them youthink you know this, but have
you really thought it through?
And that's my key thing I wanteverybody to think it through.
Think through the implicationsof the Christian worldview.

Think it through, think through the implications
of the Christian worldview.
Luke, I want to bring you in aswell, if you're ready with some
of the questions that you'vegot here.

Luke Allen (19:53):
Oh man, I'm just enjoying listening.
I'm just lost in thought rightnow.
I think that's a reallyinteresting way of teaching it,
though Doug is starting out withworldview and explaining that
concept.
No-transcript worldview answerwhen you're giving them a quiz.

(20:33):
You know kind of like surecatechism.
You know here's the bibleanswer to this bible question.
It's when you bring it outsideof that into more of a lane that
feels secular to us, like how,how does this apply to a, you
know, discussion you're havingin your work as a construction
worker and is there a biblicalworldview way to talk about?

(20:55):
You know this said disagreement, and that's where I get people
kind of like oh hmm, there's abiblical worldview application
for that, like it goes beyondBible-type topics, it goes to
everything you know.

Yeah, I think, luke , I'm getting ready to head down
to Bolivia this week and I'mgoing to be teaching at a
conference for Christianeducators down there, and the
thing that they want me toaddress is exactly what you're
talking about there, and thething that they want me to
address is exactly what you'retalking about the Christian
educators down there.
They—and here I think too veryoften, you know, they bring in

(21:33):
biblical worldview as a kind ofa standalone class as a part of
their curriculum.
But if you ask them, how does abiblical worldview shape a
particular set of principlesthat undergird all the other
subjects math, literature,history, science, everything you
get blank stares at that point.
Those are separate categories,right.
There's kind of the Bible stuffand then there's all the

(21:56):
secular stuff, if you will.
So, yeah, doug, what are yourthoughts on that?

Doug, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I just don't think wepress on people's worldview
enough, like we tend to besatisfied with the typical
Sunday school answer and thecatechism style thing, and I am
guilty of this too with my ownchildren.

(22:24):
When they give me the rightanswer, I'm like that's good,
that's the right answer.
But I think in every person'sspiritual formation and every
person's discipleship journeyand their maturity process, they
have to be able to answer thequestion of why that's the case.
And so it becomes verynecessary and I think that's
part of my tactic is to say,okay, here's the answer.

(22:45):
But if you can't tell me whyyou don't have an understanding
of the Christian worldview, youhave the answer.
You have the Christianworldview in a nice little
package that's never gonethrough any real pushing.
When you go into the marketplaceor you go to your construction

(23:05):
worker friend and you try totalk to them, that's where a lot
of people tend to have theirfirst real experience of wow, I
don't really know this as wellas I thought I did, or I didn't
realize that there was so muchto this, and it usually draws
them back into it, and so partof what I think that the church
should be doing is should becreating environments where they

(23:26):
have some freedom to press alittle bit and say, well, why is
that true the case?
And, you know, push back on themand see if we can get them to

(23:48):
give you an answer.
I think that's what's requiredof us in this generation is to
be able to, you know, defendthose who contradict and to, you
know, take captive everythought that's raised up against
the knowledge of God.
Those are active verbs thatpush us to working hard and we

(24:13):
should want our people to beable to have that skill set to
say, yeah, I know that's nottrue, because now let me give
you the reason and the rationale, scripturally based, but let me
explain it to you, and it takesa lot of time to do that, but I

(24:33):
think that's becoming clearthat we need it and we need it
desperately.

Luke Allen (24:37):
How, just, really practically, how can churches do
this?
Because sometimes I think, well, we should just have like a
Sunday where we're talking to abiblical worldview for health
healthcare workers and abiblical worldview for mothers
in the home and a biblicalworldview for the construction
worker guy.
Like, is that how we do it?
Like how do we get reallypractical and reaching people
and helping them figure out thisapplication of the world be
applying to everything well,this is where my this is my

(25:01):
opinions here at this point.

I so I think that churches could probably
just do more, and I just meanthat generally, pastors can fill
their time pretty well withwhatever they have on their
plate.
So if you're preaching twosermons on a Sunday, most

(25:26):
pastors can fill that whole weekup with study.
If you really wanted to, youadd another program in there
that gets filled up even faster,and so what ends up happening
is you get the weekend Sundaysermon and you're trying to go
through books of the Bible andyou want to be faithful to the
text, and so you feel lockedinto whatever the content of the

(25:48):
scripture is.
And so my solution is if thisis a need for the church and we
are concerned for our people tohave, and that they need a
Christian worldview to be formed, then we've got to be bold
enough practically to suggest oroffer ourselves, if we're a lay

(26:10):
person within the church, toprovide a few week course on the
basics of Christian worldviewor implement a program, like you
guys have, and add things tothe schedule.
And I think we're afraid to addthings to the schedule because
we're afraid of people's timeand pastors are busy, and so
they're like I don't think Ihave time to do that and I think

(26:32):
practically the only way to viefor people's attention is to
vie for people's attention.
They're going to spend theirtime scrolling through social
media and watching pointless TVshows and engaging in secular
ideologies, passively andactively.
Passively and actively, weshould be in the battlefield,

(26:54):
which is how the scripturedescribes it the war front of
the battlefield of ideas for thesake of our people's hearts and
minds.
And that's going to require usto put together classes and
programs and ministries, andit's going to make us tired and
it's going to add to ourschedule, but there's a select
group of people that God hasequipped to do this and it is

(27:14):
our responsibility to do it.
And so, practically speaking, Ijust say whatever it is you
think you need to have for yourculture and your context, we
need to put this together.
Put something together.
Just put a class on the docketand sign up to teach it.
And even if you have no ideawhat you're doing, just put it
on the docket and sign up toteach it.
And even if you have no ideawhat you're doing, just put it
on the docket and figure out.

(27:35):
You know more than most of thelay people in your church if
you're listening to the podcast.
So figure out some way to equipyour church in this regard.
It's the most practical thing.
Just do something.
Just do something.

Doug, you know, in California, Oregon is similar in
terms of its kind of what Iwould call the dominant cultural
worldview, pretty hostile toChristianity.
And yet you know, we all areabsorbing that in, you know,
just constantly through.
You know these worldviews tendto be caught right More than
they're taught right.

(28:10):
You just absorb them from thetime that you're an infant.
So a lot of worldview teachingis kind of helping people to see
the worldview that the culturehas kind of given them in
various ways and sort that outvis-a-vis the biblical worldview
.
That's part of what it means totake every thought captive.

(28:33):
Um, you know, our, our, um, oneof our founders, darrell Miller,
has a saying that he loves tosay.
He says if the church isn'tdiscipling the nation, the
nation is discipling the church.
You know it's going to alwayskind of go one way or another.
Uh, somebody, some dominantworldview is going to be
discipling.
You know somebody, um, what aresome of the ways?
What are, what are challenges?
You see right now, particularlyin the culture there in

(28:54):
Southern California that you'rewrestling with, that Christians
are absorbing some of thecultural lies that you really
want to address with a biblicalworldview.
And how do we actually getbeyond, just to follow up to
that would be, you know, evenbeyond just the individual and
into the culture itself, so thatwe're starting to see some
change and shift in a culturethat's, you know, that's really

(29:18):
corrosive to flourishing, youknow, and the kind of blessing
that God desires.
Yeah, go ahead.

So here in Southern California, I mean,
there's a few things that aredominant, but the me first
mentality is probably the mostdominant mentality and we see it
on, I think, the larger scaleright now, with even, like these
, no kings, protests thisideology that no one and nothing
is above me, no one hasauthority nothing is above me,
no one has authority and it'sreally just, ultimately,

(29:58):
rejection of authority, anythingthat subjugates me from and
puts my personal autonomy belowanything else is wrong.
That is a problem for anyChristian and should be a
problem for any Christian.
And to be able to sayunabashedly, unashamedly, from
pulpits that there is asovereign king of the universe

(30:19):
who has all power and dominionand authority and who is going
to have every knee bow and everytongue confess and this is the
reality, whether you want it tobe or not to say that regularly
and frequently from the pulpits,or to even tell people you can
pretend your whole life that youare in charge, but at the end

(30:43):
of the day you know that's nottrue and the scripture testifies
to the fact that that's nottrue.
There's many circumstances ineverybody's life that we've had
that prove that reality, andfighting against that reality
only makes life more difficult.
In Southern California, that'sone of the things that we just
deal with.
It's just you fight and youfight and you fight, thinking

(31:04):
that you're in charge, you cancontrol it, you're going to make
it work and you're not.
And that one is very prevalent.
It is hard to address, apartfrom the gospel Um I.
I don't know how to break downthose walls, apart from a
transformation of the gospel, um, but we, we, we see that one

(31:26):
that just and maybe this is moreme but um, it's most of the
time in our baptism tanks, inour um, when people are sharing
their testimonies, this, thismisunderstanding of human
goodness, um, people thinkingthat they are good and um,
really misidentifying thetotality of the effects of sin

(31:49):
and its individual personalcomponents.
People think they're good Inthis area we're in a more
affluent area of Southern OrangeCounty and they like to compare
themselves to people who arelesser than them in terms of

(32:09):
whatever that would be and thatgives them some sort of personal
justification.
And so trying to convince peoplethat sin, compared to a holy
God, is a separating and damningoffense is the core thing that
we're trying to get people towrap their minds around, and

(32:32):
those are biblical worldviewissues.
They're theological issues, butthey're biblical worldview
issues Because, apart from thosethings, nothing else can fall
into place If we can't get thisright, if we just walk around
thinking we're fine, there's noneed for anything.
And those are the ones that Iidentify the most, and they're
the ones that we are constantlyhitting on, especially that

(32:53):
topic of sin, being unafraid totell a culture who doesn't like
to be told that they haveanything wrong with them, that
there's something perpetuallywrong with you.
It makes us not very attractivein some people's eyes, and yet
we feel like that's what we'revery clearly called to do.

Luke Allen (33:21):
I like how you're getting really to the practical,
hands-on effects of theworldview around you.
Just, I think sometimes we canlook at the Western culture and
be like, oh, the dominantworldview is postmodernism, you
know, or it's neo-Marxism orwhatever, and those are hard to
wrap your head around, you know.
But selfishness, you know likethere's a lot of selfishness in
my community that one's a littlebit more, that one hits home a

(33:42):
little bit harder for peoplelike oh yeah, I definitely fall
under that.

And not to minimize those other ones.
I mean we've addressed those.
We've done full on lectures onCRT in our men's group.
I mean we've addressed those.
We've done full-on lectures onCRT in our men's group.
I mean we address hot topicbooks on.
I mean we've covered Marxism,I've covered deconstructionism
with a group of parents ofteenagers.

(34:05):
I mean we cover the otherthings too.
But I just think as a pastor,as I engage in the community of
our church, it's the thingthat's taking people captive,
more than CRT and more thanmaybe woke ideology.
From my perspective is thefoundations of that and the

(34:26):
foundations of that ultimatelyare the same things they've
always been Pride, selfishness,self-centeredness, rejection of
God, as it says in Romans 1,.
They refuse to acknowledge him,and so they're given over to
the futility of their minds.
And so everything is adownstream effect of these
higher biblical principles.

Luke Allen (34:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's just practical to kind of to
bring that down to.
You know, bring that down forpeople because I guess
postmodernism is one of thedominant worldviews behind our
society today, but hardly anyperson in the pew is going to
say, oh, I'm a postmodernist,but what they, what they've been
affected by, is kind of thevalue proposition of

(35:06):
postmodernism, which is you area sovereign, autonomous self.
No one can tell you what to do.
Your truth is the mostimportant truth in the world,
which is you are a sovereign,autonomous self.
No one can tell you what to do.
Your truth is the most importanttruth in the world and that
makes people have this kind ofputs themselves up on a pedestal
like, oh wow, I am veryimportant here and that of
course is going to raise a lotof selfishness in our culture
and that's going to leak intothe church in a more subtle way
than just— and just the pushingback against authority, as you
were saying.

Yeah, no People I don't think can describe you
know these broad categories ofworldviews.
Most people can't very well orthey can only do it.
You know generally much lesskind of where they came from,
who were the thought leadersbehind them and what did they
believe.
But, they've been influenced bythem.
They've been impacted by themin very practical ways, like
you're describing, doug, thiskind of, you know, this

(35:48):
autonomous self Don't tell mewhat to do.
I'm.
I'm this kind of bucklingagainst any authority.
Well, it comes directly out ofpostmodernism, for sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
And the same with the other onethat you mentioned too, which
is this idea that I'm good,right, and that's very much this
idea that what's wrong with theworld, the evil in the world,

(36:09):
the injustice, it's not comingfrom me, you know, it's that
other group over there, thoseblack people, white people the
Jews, you know, hutus Tutsis.
I mean, it's always somebodyelse right, not me, you know,
but you know.
So people may not be able toarticulate that that's a core
doctrine of Marxism, let's say,but they've absorbed the idea

(36:33):
anyways, you know, and it's verydifferent than the biblical
idea.
No, the core problem in theworld isn't so much out there,
it's kind of inside of youactually.

Yeah, and that's one of the misconceptions I
think that pastors in the pulpithave about addressing these
topics from the pulpit.
It's the word selfishness andthe word pride and the rejection
of authority are very clearlyarticulated in scripture.
This is not hard to understand.
So to give a practical examplefrom the pulpit of how this

(37:04):
oppresso-oppress motif hasaffected our thinking on this
topic of authority is not justrelevant, it's necessary.

It's really necessary.
I totally agree.

Yeah, so the illustrations and the examples
that we are giving now, it'd begood for pastors to make those
connections between them that,yes, we have other influences
within our society that are kindof pushing us now and pushing
our people to think about thisin a way that really wasn't

(37:40):
around in the first century forsure, and it's not been around
really for most of the historyof the church that we now need
to address.

In terms of your church outreach, it seems like
working with postmodern culture.
The message of sin isn't veryattractive, and yet your church
is growing.
So you must be doing somethingdifferent.
But I think the temptation isto come up with another angle,
whether it's belonging or youknow people do admit that, yes,
they're autonomous, but theyfeel isolated and disconnected,

(38:22):
and so I'll join the church tobelong.

And how does?

that work for you.
People come for wrong motivesto the baptismal thing.

Not wrong, but different.
Yeah, I, I, um.
We try to be as biblical of achurch as we can.
We're a bible church.
We we try to take the scripturevery seriously and so when,
when the scripture speaks to theinstrumentality of the word in
terms of salvation and the bookof james, we take that seriously
.
When Paul says, I didn't do itwith underhanded ways but with
an open statement of the truth,we take that very seriously.

(39:03):
We really are strong believersof teaching the Word of God and
God utilizing the scripturespreached and exposited clearly
to be a means of salvation forpeople, in the sense that God
uses the preaching of the wordand, through the power of the
spirit, regenerates them.
And our, our goal is to beextremely clear of what the

(39:27):
scripture says.
And, uh, I think our approachhas always been let's just do
that.
That's my senior pastor'sapproach.
That's what he's been doing for30 years.
He's been successful in it.
Let's just do that.
And it's actually an incrediblystrange church growth tactic
that I suggest everybodylistening to this try, because,

(39:50):
as every other church tries tofind some new fangled way of
attracting people to theirchurch, they'll all get sick and
tired of it and as theyeventually go down the road of
the culture.
If your church is faithful tothe scripture, your church will
grow, because people want truthin this world, and I think that

(40:14):
appealing to people's desire toknow what's true and real has
always been the method.
It's just different now.
Getting people in the doors ismaybe more difficult than it
used to be, and we need toadjust our model.
But we employ our people to goand build relationships with

(40:37):
others and to invite them tothings and to explain things to
them, and we don't necessarilytry to attract them.
By a lot of other means thoughwe do outreach events and fun
things it's ultimately to getthem to sit down and hear the
preaching of the Word of God,and we think that that will have

(40:58):
its full effect.

Doug.
It seems to me that a lot still.
There's a strain of thinkingthat's really deep in the
American church in particularand I don't, by the way, see
this so much in churches inAfrica, asia, Latin America,
where we travel and teach but astrain here in this church that
says something along these lines.
I'm going to way oversimplifythis, but when we're talking
about biblical worldview orbiblical worldview training and
engaging in the culture at thelevel of worldview, you know, it

(41:24):
kind of pushes back against itand it says something like what
we're really all about as achurch is to try to yes, this
world, this culture is fallen,right, it's broken, it's fallen,
it's worldly, it's destined fordestruction.
We need to save people out ofit and get them into the church.

(41:44):
That's where Jesus hasauthority, that's where the
Bible really applies in thechurch and then ultimately to
heaven.
And any kind of thought aboutequipping people with biblical
truths so that they can go out,let's say, into their role as an
educator or city government orwhatever it may be law, you know

(42:07):
, even just in the home, as aparent, equipping them with
biblical worldviews so that theycan bring about a change or a
shift in that area from whateverthe dominant worldview happens
to be, which is usually verydestructive as it is in our time
, to another worldview.
That's a distraction, it's kindof a waste of time.

(42:28):
You know it's ultimately notimportant.
You know, because you know it'skind of the sinking ship idea
it's.
You know how do you I assumeyou hear that as well you know
what are your thoughts on thator how do you challenge that?
Because what I see it doing isit kind of takes the biblical
worldview thinking off the table.

(42:48):
For most people it's like itdoesn't really matter.
What matters is that I'm saved.
I'm growing maybe at this levelof some kind of personal piety.
Matter what matters is that I'msaved.
I'm growing maybe at this levelof some kind of personal piety.
But me thinking like aChristian in my everyday life
and living that out in a waythat maybe even brings change in
that area, that's too much orthat's not even helpful.
Do you agree with my kind ofcharacterization here?

Yeah, no, I understand, and my gut response
is to go to the parable of thetalents and just reference that
and say we need to be carefulnot to take that position of the
one that has been entrusted asa steward and say, well, it's

(43:33):
rough out there, or it's hard,or it might not work, or I might
not do as good of a job, or itmight be difficult for me, and
so let's bury my stewardship.
It is in the story, of courseyou have some that produces more
than the other, produces morethan the other, and we may be in

(43:58):
a time where, in apost-Christian society where we
don't see the fruit bearing thatwe used to see, we're maybe not
50 fold or a hundred fold, butmaybe we're five fold, and in
the parable of the talents it'sthat well done, good and
faithful steward.
I mean you did a good job withwhat I entrusted to you and so.
I think we need to encouragepeople that just because things

(44:19):
are hard in society, justbecause the workplace
environment might not be asfruitful as it used to be, the
conversations around the watercooler are not as receptive.
What God is looking for isfaithfulness, and his stewards
to not be ashamed of the gospelAmen, yeah, so well said, doug,
and just to do it.

And if it bears fruit, it bears fruit, and I do
think you know, don't?

you think?

we're living at a time where, you know, the, the,
the, the deeply anti-Christian,very corrosive worldview of the
society around us is reallydriving people into despair, of
the society around us is reallydriving people into despair and
people are really receptive.
There's a kind of a receptivitynow to truth.
Now, I think, in a way that wehaven't seen, just because I
think you know, you just takethe sexual revolution.

(45:05):
It's just destroyed lives, youknow, out there, and people are
just so lost and broken.
I mean, you know we could gointo detail on that just one
area, but people are looking forsomething different now and I
do feel like there is.
Maybe we're seeing thebeginnings of some kind of a
revival or change.
What are your thoughts on that?
Do you see that where you're at?

particularly purpose in people, but I also
see at the same time a rise ofdistraction.
And so my biggest concern,especially in Southern Orange

(45:45):
County, is there's unlimitedthings to do, people to see,
places to go and now, withsocial media, things to scroll
and entertain ourselves withnonstop and, with the rise of AI
, unlimited ways to entertainourselves and ask our questions
and get things done.
But I think ultimately all ofit is pushing and leading people
into a sense of despair becausethey're losing purpose and even

(46:09):
the traditional things that weknow don't fully satisfy but are
intended to have some level ofsatiation in our lives, as God
made us things like family, asfamilies get pulled more and
more apart and they spend moreand more time on their devices
and then they are struggling toeven connect anymore with their
family members.

(46:31):
It's just driving a deeper anddeeper sense of like what am I
even doing here?
What is the point to all this?
And I think it's creating anopportunity that I think will
actually be greater in thefuture, because I think AI is
going to play a major role indriving people to
purposelessness that the churchneeds to have the answer, that

(46:53):
the church needs to have theanswer, because we do have the
answer, not as a fabrication,but as the truth to say.
We have the solution to yourproblem.
We can tell you what the purposeof life is.
We could tell you how to besatisfied.
We could tell you why thethings that should satisfy you
in this life don't fully satisfyyou, and I think that is

(47:14):
comforting to people to hear.
Even when I tell people as apastor yes, I'm not fully
satisfied in this life, I'm notsatisfied by the things that are
around me in the biblicalworldview that pushes me to
think about the kingdom and tosay there is a fulfillment of

(47:38):
the destruction of this body ofsin that I need to look for and
long for with anticipation, andso even explaining that to
people like oh, you feel thisway too.
Yes, of course I feel this way.
I feel gross after I scrollthrough social media too long
and think why did I just wastemy time looking at mindless
things?
There's something better to bedoing.

(47:59):
And I feel that pull and thatdichotomy.
And I think other people arefeeling it too and we just need
to tell them yeah, it's becauseyou need Christ, you need to be
grounded in him and find yoursatisfaction in him and
ultimately be found in him.
That's I think we're going tohave a window of opportunity for

(48:27):
the church in the near future.
Here that's going to benecessary for us to jump into,
to shout from the rooftops.
We have the solution, we havethe answer, We've always had it
and.
But now the need is going toshift.
I think again the pendulum isgoing to swing back.

Luke Allen (48:40):
Yeah, I hope so.

I hope so too.

Luke Allen (48:45):
I'm sensing that.
But one thing that I think isgoing to be a huge drawback to
that is just we love our comfortas Americans.
I know this is definitely truefor myself as Americans, I know
this is definitely true formyself.
Francis Schaeffer, as one ofhis kind of last warnings, was
like one of the things that'sgoing to mess up the American
church in the future is ourdesire for personal peace, that
desire for comfort, Personalpeace and prosperity.

He said yeah.

Luke Allen (49:06):
Prosperity?
Yeah, and it's.
I want to proclaim the truth.
I want to shout it from therooftops.
I want to, oh, but I have to dothat in my workplace, where I
might get fired.
I have to do that around thewater cooler and I might lose
some friends.
I have to be a good steward.
Then I don't know if I want todo that, because that's messing

(49:26):
my personal life up Like that.
To me seems like it's stillgoing to be a huge drawback,
because I feel that myself sostrongly Like, ugh, I'm all
about proclaiming the truthuntil, oh, now it's affecting my
bank account.
Oh, that's uncomfortable.
That messes with my personalpeace.

Yeah, yeah, and that's the cost of discipleship.
That should be there from thebeginning.
But I feel it too.
I'm the same way.

I do agree with you , doug, I do think we're facing
potentially a really excitingwindow of opportunity and I do
think it's going to happen.
As people kind of hit thebottom of the barrel.
They're so broken, theirrelationships are broken, their
relationship to themselves, withothers, they're just alienated,

(50:18):
feeling this sense ofpurposelessness.
You know, they're going to behungry to see it, to see, oh,
there's a different way ofliving.
You know and I love this abouthow Christianity changes the
world.
Historically it's been this way.
Let me show you a better way.
We don't cram down right here.
You have to believe this.

(50:39):
No, I'm going to show you abetter way.
You know this is a better wayto be and to live, because it's
true.
But we have to be ready to kindof live that way, to understand
it, to put it into practice andlive it.
Yes, christ is at the center ofit.
It goes beyond just, you know,believe in Christ.
Living out all the implicationsof a biblical worldview in very

(51:00):
practical ways, I think, setsus up to be kind of a bright
light in a dark place, and Ithink that's going to be an
exciting thing.
But I agree with you, luke, too, about the challenges, right.
But, dwight, you were going tosay something, I think.

Oh, you guys are just making me think, especially
Doug, you and your class onworldview.
I'm thinking, yeah, that that'svery interesting what you were
saying, because it is a growingphenomena that we almost seem to
have to work less to succeedmore, and, and so people have
more free time and moreopportunity and more

(51:35):
distractions, and then theoutcome is less fulfillment.
And I'm thinking, well, that'sgoing to be a challenge, and yet
the solution is to love yourneighbor, do good to one another
, solve problems, fix things,wake up in the morning and say
what good can I do for the worldtoday?
How can I leave it better thanI found it?

(51:56):
And how am I going to do that?
And when do I start?
And just get at it.
And I mean, it used to be.
You had to do that to survive,you know people didn't wake up
in the morning and go should Ido anything today?
No, I have to do something or Iwon't eat tonight.
And much of the world is stillin that situation.
But in the West we're reallygetting to a point where I can

(52:19):
make it without working you know.
So anyway, good luck.

Luke Allen (52:23):
It's a good challenge for your worldview
class.
Well, I mean just practicallysay you gave us a nice
optimistic view of the future afew minutes ago, doug.

Say that, oh, I'm pretty dark.
Actually, if you get down tothe depths of it, it's not going
to.
I said there's an opportunity,I'm going to stick with the
optimism.

Okay, all right, all right yeah.

Luke Allen (52:42):
Let's say that opportunity does arise, though,
in the next few years.
How can pastors, how canchurches specifically start
taking steps to preparethemselves for that opportunity?
Now, I know that's a broadquestion, but what's the message
that people need to be hearinginside the church to prepare
themselves for, possibly kind ofan awakening to the truth in a

(53:03):
way, because of the fallennessand the decay around us Now,
maybe people perking up theirears?
What's the message that we canhave prepared for those years?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a very simple message
, but it has to do with God'sdesign for us.
As Dwight said, we're notdesigned to consume and fulfill
our pleasures.
We are designed forrelationship with God and with
others, and people will simplyfeel better and have their

(53:42):
spirits lifted and feel a senseof purpose and be more satisfied
if they can recognize thesimplicity of the first two
commandments, that if we trulydo stop rejecting God and love
him and if we do love others asourselves, there is an inherent
level of satisfaction thoughit's broken still because of sin
that there is something here.

(54:05):
And I do think that the otherthing is to.
I'm a big advocate, I'm afamily pastor, I work with kids,
I work with parents, I workwith a lot of families.
I do a lot of marriagecounseling.
I just think that probably oneof the most strategic ways that

(54:28):
we as a church can speak to ourdark world is if our families
and our churches love each other, support each other, wanna
churches love each other,support each other, want to be
with each other, maintainrelational unity with each other
, and it's going to be a lightin the midst of darkness that I
just think is going to shine sobright and I've seen that here

(54:50):
in these walls, where peoplecome in and they are they
honestly are confused.
I think when they start to meetfamilies and they see families
with friends of other familiesand everybody knows each other's
names and everybody's holdingeach other's kids and treating
them like their own family, andpeople are wanting to go have
lunch with each other and and goon vacation with groups of

(55:13):
people and they look at us like,why are you all so okay with
each other?
Don't you get mad?
And we're like, yeah, we getmad at each other.
I think that, light of like,let's get our families stable.
Let's teach our kids to beobedient to parents.

(55:33):
Let's teach our parents how tobe an authority over their kids.
It's a big thing.
I constantly am dealing with andlet's let our families actually
enjoy themselves and let's stopthis downward fall of
destruction relationships due todivorce in the churches.
Let's beat the trend.
Let's beat the trend and thenlet's do family things as a

(55:55):
church, where we actually bringfamilies to the community and
they see the difference betweenwhat we're doing and what
they're feeling.
I think that we're going toneed simple tactics like that.
Simple, just light in thedarkness.
Where's the darkness?
What's it look like?
I mean, one of my favoritethings, just to rant here.

(56:23):
I love, I absolutely I relishit every time I see it.
I teach a group of parents ofteenagers every single Wednesday
night while our youth groupsare going on.
So I take all the parents intoa room and I teach to them While
the youth groups are going on.
We've got our junior hires inour high schools and we've got
we've got hundreds and hundredsof them, and I love going
outside after I'm done preachingand seeing all the teenagers in
circles talking to each other,throwing footballs, running

(56:46):
around and playing without theirphones.
It's like in this world I don't.
It's so simple, but it's likethat's light in the midst of
darkness.
It's like they're just, theyare in relationship with one
another and it's beautiful andthey like each other and they're
engaged with each other.
And I think people see that andthey're like, oh, that's

(57:07):
different.
I mean, I haven't seen a kidnot look up from their phone in
months or years, you know.
And here's a whole group ofthem just hanging out with each
other because they understandthe value of relationships and
fellowship.
It's little.
I think it's more little thingslike that than a big program or
some class or some broadapproach.

(57:27):
It's like let's just have thechurch be the church the way God
intended it to be and preachthe Word as God intended us to
preach the Word, and we'llprobably do an okay job in that
environment that I describedearlier, where we might have
some opportunity due topurposelessness.

Yeah, wow.
I love that Well, Doug, thanksfor your time.
I think we probably should wrapup, but I really appreciate the
practical kind of ideas andsuggestions, even the one that
you just put on the table now,really focusing in when we teach
about biblical worldview andits application.
Let's start in that most basicsocial unit of all our own
families and how would it lookto put these principles and

(58:08):
practices into practice in a waythat's different from what we
see in the culture around us?
Because the difference isreally stark right now and it's
really attractive, just like yousaid, and I also love the idea
of the Institute, the one-yeargap year that you guys are doing
.
I think that's a reallypractical idea, Doug.
If people wanted to learn more,if pastors maybe that are

(58:30):
listening to us wanted to learnmore about what you're doing and
maybe how they could learn fromyou, Is there a way that they
could get in touch with you?
What's the best way that peoplecould connect and learn from
you and what you're doing?

Yeah, our institute is called Compass
Bible Institute, our website iscompassbibleinstituteorg, and
all the socials are connectedthere as well.
We have gap year classes, wehave graduate level classes and
a residency program for pastoraltraining and we also have just
regular undergraduate classesthat transfer to a bunch of

(59:05):
great schools, great theologicalschools across the country.
We offer them cheap andaccessible online as well as
here on campus.
So if anybody listening wantsto be a part of our program,
we'd love to have you apply andcome out here and visit us if
you want and see what we're allabout.
But check us out on our website.

(59:25):
That's the best way.

Well, I want to really encourage our listeners,
especially if you're in a churchministry, to take advantage of
Doug and what they're doing.
I just think we have to becomemuch better.
Well, first of all, we have tosay this is our mission, right?
Our mission is to equip peopleto live out their faith in a
full biblical worldview kind ofa way.
It's not just to put theprograms and the people in the

(59:47):
pews, but this is what it—andit's going to be hard, as Doug
said, it's going to require newways of doing things, but this
is our job, you know.
And so here's a church and apastor that's got some really
practical ideas, and I just wantto encourage people to take
advantage of this as anopportunity to learn.
It seems like something thatchurches could do across the

(01:00:08):
country actually is to offerthese kind of classes.
I really like that idea, youknow, of churches doing a lot
more with education, even kindof higher education.
I think that's going to be areally critical piece in the
future.
So, luke Dwight, any finalthoughts or questions from you?

Dwight Vogt (01:00:29):
Nice meeting you, Doug.

Doug Atterbury (01:00:30):
Yeah, nice meeting you too, yeah.

Scott Allen (01:00:32):
Doug, we really appreciate you and appreciate
your ministry and what thechurch is doing down there.
It's exciting to hear.
So thanks for your time.

Doug Atterbury (01:00:41):
Yeah, great.
Yeah, thank you for your guys'time Really appreciate it.

Scott Allen (01:00:44):
That's great.
Well, thanks as well to all ofyou who are listening to this
podcast.
We really appreciate yourinterest and your being a part
of the Disciple Nations Alliancethrough the podcast.
Thank you, you.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How to Disciple Your Church in a Biblical Worldview | Doug Atterbury