"I Detest the Label Christian Nationalist" | Alisa Childers

Are we in a uniquely pivotal moment for Christians to shape culture? As interest in the Bible and openness to Christianity seem to be on the rise, believers might have a unique window of opportunity to disciple the nations. But how should we approach this exciting challenge?

Today, we sit down with well-known author, speaker, and podcaster, Alisa Childers to go over the three predominant approaches to Christian cultural engagement, as outlined by theologian Owen Strachan in his clarifying article, “One ‘Holy Nation’ in Christ: Christian Nationalism in Historical and Theological Perspective.” You’ll hear us wrestle with each approach’s pitfalls. Could there be another way? Hear Alisa share her perspective on whether a “fourth way” exists—one that remains faithful to Scripture while effectively influencing society as a whole.

Join us for a thought-provoking and relevant discussion on faith, culture, and the role of Christians in our exciting contemporary moment.

• View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!

Episode Transcript

Alisa Childers (00:04):
Whenever something crazy happens in the
world, our tendency is to gocrazy on the other side.
I mean, I have concerns aboutextremes on both sides in the
church right now, I haveconcerns about some of that real
far right Christian nationalismthing and I'm concerned about
what I'm seeing on the left andsometimes, when that's the case,
christians recognize that andthey say well, I want to be

(00:24):
balanced, I want to be in themiddle, and that's the wrong way
to think too.
I don't think that balance orbeing in the middle is the goal
right.
Sometimes the right view isgoing to be viewed as extreme,
sometimes it's going to beviewed as wimpy, and I think my
point would be, as Christians,there are always going to be
people on either extreme, andour goal as Christians should be

(00:48):
just right in the bullseye ofbiblical truth.
Come what may, whether we arepraised or persecuted, whether
we're given a party or put in aprison, we just need to speak
what's true.
Hi friends.

Luke Allen (01:07):
Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world, to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.

(01:27):
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.

Scott Allen (01:47):
Well, welcome everyone to another episode of
Ideas have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen, I'm thepresident of the DNA and joined
today by Dwight Vogt and LukeAllen, my co-workers and friends
, and today we're thrilled tohave a very special guest with
us, someone I've been wanting totalk to and get to know better

(02:08):
for many years now ElisaChilders.
Elisa, thank you for takingtime out to be with us on the
podcast today.

Alisa Childers (02:16):
Oh, it's great to be with you.
Thanks for having me.

Scott Allen (02:18):
Oh, it's great to have you.
Elisa's well-known, so probablydoesn't need much of an
introduction, but she is alifelong Christian follower of
Jesus and known as acontemporary Christian music
recording artist with the Doveaward-winning group Zoe Girl.
But today Elisa is known as abest-selling author, a teacher,

(02:40):
a podcaster on issues of cultureand worldview and particularly
postmodernism and the influencethe disastrous influence that
postmodernism is having on thechurch and the broader culture.
Her passion for that grows outof her own experience as a
member of a progressive churchmany years ago, and her books

(03:02):
include her best-selling book,another Gospel.
And her books include herbest-selling book, another
Gospel A Lifelong ChristianSeeks Truth in Response to
Progressive Christianity.
That was published in 2020.
And her most recent book, whichwas just published last year,
is called the Deconstruction ofChristianity what Is it, why
it's Destructive and how toRespond to it.
So yeah, elise, as I said,really thrilled to be able to

(03:25):
have some time with you.
I've been wanting to connectsince I was first kind of made
aware of you in 2020, because Iwrote a book that year called
why Social Justice is NotBiblical Justice, published very
similarly timed to your firstbook, and I think we were both

(03:45):
seeing kind of similar thingsand responding to similar things
, and I listened to one of yourpodcasts and I thought, oh my
gosh, I would love to talk toyou.
Part of what motivated me towrite my book was I was involved
with a very influential churchin Phoenix that really had gone
down the direction of what youmight call progressive, or they

(04:07):
really bought into a lot of thisidea of social justice and what
you know we kind ofcolloquially call woke now and I
was very alarmed at thatbecause it was such a, you know,
a good church, well-groundedchurch, but I was just so
puzzled on how they had gone sodeeply into that.

(04:28):
So, anyways, I am glad that wehave an opportunity today to get
into some discussion aroundthese things.

Alisa Childers (04:34):
Yeah, me too, and I definitely echo that
sentiment.
We definitely have a kind ofkindred way of seeing things,
and we were seeing some of thesame things at the same time, I
think, and so I'm really lookingforward to see where this
conversation goes.

Scott Allen (04:49):
I was thinking as we were talking as a team, Elisa
, you know, I feel like we're inthis kind of really unique
moment where a lot of theseideas that we were writing about
.
They're still really powerfuland prevalent in the Church.
But there's been a shift and Ithink everyone feels that and
sees that there's just much moreopenness and awareness to

(05:10):
seeing how damaging anddestructive they are.
People are willing to kind ofreconsider them.
I think there's a lot ofturning away from it.
It's a really fascinating time.
I didn't expect that we wouldsee it in this way, so kind of
quickly.
I'd love your thoughts on that,by the way, just kind of what's
been happening even over thelast year.
But it got us thinking gosh, itwould be fun to talk about.

(05:33):
How do we, you know, in thismoment, with what's happening,
how should we as the Church, theevangelical, Bible-believing
Church, how should we rightlyrespond to culture?
We've seen some of these waysthat the church has been
responding that have beennegative, that we've been
writing about.
But how should we?
So before I get into—as kind ofa jumping off I was going to

(05:58):
use a really terrific articlethat Owen Strawn, the great
theologian author.
He wrote an article onChristian approaches to culture.
I use as a jumping off point.
But before I kind of get intothat, elisa, any thoughts on
just where we find ourselvestoday.
I'd love your thoughts orreaction.

Alisa Childers (06:17):
Yeah, it's a really interesting time to be a
Christian because in one sensewe've watched the church over
the past several years reallyprobably last decade go really
sort of drifting into this mushykind of progressive theology,
progressive political policy,progressive like what you called

(06:40):
wokeness, that sort of thing,and even, by the way, in
churches that might not beprogressive theologically or
political or whatever, you stillkind of see this influence of
that cultural Marxism or thewokeness and the oppressed
versus oppressor narrative,which has honestly been a bit
puzzling to me, because when Iwrote my first book about
progressive Christianity Ipretty much just focused on

(07:03):
theology.
That was pretty much the onlyangle that I was looking at it
from.
But then of course I noticedthere was a really strong
political difference, there wasa really strong ethical
difference, there was a reallystrong difference as far as how
to engage with culture, and so Ididn't necessarily make the
connection that every churchthat sort of leans into these

(07:25):
woke kind of things was going togo theologically progressive.
But I do think that's what weare starting to see happen.
So, even churches that mighthave been checking all the right
boxes on gospel truth andbiblical inerrancy and things
like this.
They're maybe loosening up onthose things because of caving
into wokeness, for lack of abetter word.
Now what's really interestingto me is that culture seems to

(07:48):
be quite split on this because,as we've seen with the last
election and so much of that forI think even just your average
non-Christian person had to dowasn't so much about abortion or
something like that, but it wasreally more.
They wanted DEI out of theirsphere of or their environment.

(08:08):
They wanted that out, and soyou see a lot of these sort of
even atheists, secular humanists, almost taking a right turn.
You know away from the left,and a lot of that had to do with
things like DEI and, of ofcourse, the border was a huge
issue as well.
So I think we saw a lot ofcommon ground emerge between

(08:29):
maybe some Christian principles,like all throughout scripture,
god speaking positively ofestablishing the borders of
nations and having thoseboundaries, that he sets those
boundaries, and things likebiblical justice, where that has
to do with fairness, givingsomeone their due, with there
being different punishments inthe Old Testament for different

(08:50):
sins, different rewards fordifferent behaviors, so it's not
like just everybody has thesame exact outcome.
So we're seeing some people thatwould have been on the left
maybe coming to the rightpolitically I'm speaking more
politically right now but someof the commonalities really are
undergirded by Judeo-Christianprinciples that our country was
really founded on.

(09:10):
Now what's interesting about itis that, as the church continues
to go left, it seems in manyways now some are pushing
against that, but culture isalmost doing the opposite, and,
as my friend Natasha Cranepointed out in her book, when
Culture Hates you, it's a goodthing maybe that some of these
secular humanists and atheistsand agnostics are seeing the

(09:31):
value of some of the biblicalprinciples that they're having
to kind of borrow.
If they don't get there, if theydon't get to the gospel, then
it's just going to be this backand forth and it's not really
going to have a foundation toroot itself on.
And so I think what this bringsus back to is the reality that
and I think I don't know a lotof Christians, even the ones who

(09:53):
are really engaged politically,who would disagree with what
I'm saying here but we have tochange hearts with the gospel.
I think that's the primarything that's emerging for me is
that, yeah, we can have maybesome political relief in one
area or another, but nothing'sgoing to ultimately change until
the foundation is on Christ,and that, in my view, is not

(10:16):
something we'll have untilChrist returns.
And so it was interestingseeing these three sort of camps
emerging, and I might make somedistinctions a little
differently, but I do think it'shelpful to kind of see that
there are these differentresponses to culture coming from
the evangelical church.

Scott Allen (10:35):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
Those are really really greatthoughts and interesting
thoughts.
I share a lot of what you justdescribed there.
I do think it's interesting.
You see a lot of elites in ourculture right now, very
thoughtful people like JordanPeterson I think typifies this

(10:57):
and there's many others now thathave joined him highly educated
, often people on the left nowthat are rethinking the Bible
and, I think you know, very opento Christianity for the first
time maybe in their entire lives.
Often they were very secular,very progressive, and I think
part of the reason my own kindof analysis of this is that they

(11:19):
saw the danger of—they arethinking culturally and they saw
the danger of these ideas.
You know, like you say, it kindof reached a tipping point.
I think you mentioned DEI, whichyou know.
I think it sounds gooddiversity, equity, inclusion but
everyone kind of saw this isjust kind of overt racism

(11:43):
against one particular group.
You know people that don't have, you know, brown or black skin
or not, you know it's, you know.
So there's this kind of overtracism with this there's.
I think the transgenderismissue kind of was also a
critical turning point,especially transgender surgeries
.
People were like this ishorrible, that really.

Alisa Childers (12:04):
Especially for children.
Yes, you know, I think therewere even people within the
LGBTQ that would identify asLGBTQ that were saying like this
is a step too far.

Scott Allen (12:15):
And then I think, you know, in my own analysis, I
think, the censorship you know,this was a group that was very
willing and happy to use reallystrong power tactics to kind of
get their way in the culture,including silencing and
censoring people that hadopposite views.
And they could because they had,you know, their hands on power.
You know the power to do thosekinds of things, and I think

(12:38):
that was a wake up call.
So people were going gosh, Idon't want to live, you know, in
a culture that doesn't supportfreedom or does these things to
children or has this kind ofovert racist, you know, kind of
undertone to it.
I don't want to live in thatkind of a culture.
I want to live in a culturethat supports freedom, that
supports freedom of speech andvalues the life of children and

(12:58):
teaches children to be virtuousand doesn't have all this LGBTQ
curriculum in public schools.
And so they were saying I wantto live in a different kind of
culture than I see us moving in.
And then they started askingthe question what supports that
culture?
How do you get that culture?
We used to have it, it seems,and that led them to the Bible,

(13:20):
you know.
Lo and behold.

Alisa Childers (13:22):
Right right.

Scott Allen (13:23):
These ideas come from the Bible and you get
people like Jordan Petersonteaching about the Bible and how
this biblical story producesthese kind of good public
cultural outcomes, and so that'sall I think, fascinating people
moving away, an openness to theBible.
I think my concern with thechurch is that the church—I

(13:46):
agree completely that we need toprioritize preaching the gospel
just having a kind of anopenness to Christianity and
culture.
The influence of Christianityon culture is not enough.
People need to have born-againhearts.
But I also think it's notenough for the church to say you
just need to believe in Jesus.
In other words, these peoplearen't coming to Christianity in

(14:07):
the Bible with that kind of aninterest right now.
They're coming with a culturalinterest, right, and that's the
thing that I think the churchisn't used to even talking about
hardly.

Alisa Childers (14:20):
Yeah.

Scott Allen (14:21):
You know we've kind of forgotten that.
You know that we should behaving an influence on culture
and shaping culture with thebiblical worldview.
We, you know we want to preachthe gospel or whatever it is.
So just a couple of thoughts onmy part.
I kind of want to get into theStrawn article, if you don't
mind, because he puts forwardthese three approaches, that he

(14:44):
kind of sees three camps withinthe evangelical church and I
think they're quite valid.
You know, as I was reading hisarticle and I just want to kind
of summarize the three, get yourreaction to them, lisa, and
then just kind of quick reactionand then let's have some
discussion about you know is oneof these two of these right?

(15:07):
Is there a third way or a fourthway that is kind of missing?
Is there a better way for us tobe engaging, have that kind of
discussion?
Yeah Well, let me just go aheadand quickly pull this up here.
So this is again an articlethat Strawn wrote.
Let me reference that so peoplecan look it up and read that it

(15:27):
is called One Holy Nation inChrist, christian Nationalism in
Historical and TheologicalPerspective.
So he's writing here mainly asa critique of Christian
nationalism, which is one ofthese three approaches that he
puts forward.
But he also really lays outthese three in this article.

(15:47):
And the first one that he laysout is what I'll call winsome,
faithful presence.
And this is probably, in someways, maybe the largest kind of
camp of ideas, the school ofthought, I guess, within
evangelicalism.
When it comes to engagingculture, it's put forward most

(16:08):
powerfully by Tim Keller, thelate Tim Keller, people like
James Davidson Hunter you knowChristianity Today David French,
russell Moore, maybe, to acertain degree, the Gospel
Coalition.
So these are very influentialpeople and groups and their
basic idea in terms of how thechurch should engage with the

(16:28):
culture is that well, first ofall, it should be actively
engaged in culture.
So they would say that yes, weshould be actively engaged and
we do want to see people saved.
We want people to know thegospel, to respond to the gospel
.
We want people to know thegospel, to respond to the gospel
.

(16:51):
But it puts a heavy emphasis onbeing winsome or kind or gentle
and really wants to buildbridges of understanding with
nonbelievers and particularlyelites.
It has a real particular focuson powerful elite people in
urban areas Washington DC, newYork, these big cities.
It's very sensitive to optics,the perception that the church
has in the eyes of powerfulcultural elites, and it doesn't

(17:15):
want to look bad.
It tends to downplay hot-buttoncultural issues and often talks
in a really critical ornegative way about Christians
who are just into fightingculture wars.
It doesn't want to be seen asculture warrior-like.
It puts a lot of emphasis onlove but often will downplay

(17:37):
biblical truth claims,especially those that are
unpopular with cultural elites,and you see this particularly
around issues of sexuality, areunpopular with cultural elites
and you see this particularlyaround issues of sexuality.
So it would want to bewelcoming to LGBTQ but it's
going to struggle a little bitto speak truthfully on issues
like that, when it comes topolitics it's very famous for

(17:58):
its neither-left-nor-rightapproach Doesn't believe that
the Church should be partisan inany respect, although it would
say yes, it should be engaged inpolitics, although what I've
noticed in my own view is thatit tends to lean left.
So it's not.
It says neither left nor right,but it tends most of these

(18:20):
people probably ended up votingfor Kamala Harris in the last
election, so they certainly didnot vote for Donald Trump.
Go ahead, elisa.

Alisa Childers (18:27):
Well, sorry.
So yeah, I would say too, likeof course, tim Keller is no
longer here.
So you know for what I'm aboutto say.
I'm going to say I'm talkingmostly about David French,
russell Moore, christianityToday and, to a certain extent,
maybe some affiliated with theGospel Coalition.
But one of the things that Ithink this is a good summary

(18:48):
that you kind of summarized forme, the article that Owen wrote.
But it's interesting becauseyou know to say that they always
promote themselves as beingpolitically neutral but they're
not politically neutral at all.
In fact, we know that MeganBasham wrote a book called
Shepherds for Sale where sheactually followed the money on
David French and Russell Moore'spolitical curriculum that went

(19:09):
into hundreds of churches beforethe last election.
That was marketed as neutral,marketed as saying we don't want
to be on the right or the left,we just want to be in the heart
of the Bible.
But this curriculum was fundedby radical secular progressives
who have a very strong agenda tochange the church's mind on
some of these issues, and that'sone of the things that Megan's
book pointed out.
So I think a lot of Christianswere frustrated by the way that

(19:34):
this particular group waspresenting itself as hey, we're
trying to do this third way,we're trying to be outside of
the right or the left, butreally what they ended up being
is just a bit of a shill for theleft.
I think is what ended uphappening.
And, as you mentioned, severalpeople within this stream, for
example, roy Ortland, who's alocal pastor here in Nashville,

(19:54):
who's Russell Moore's on staffat his church he made a post
basically saying that he wasgoing to be voting for Kamala.
And when Trump was elected, youknow, russell Moore did a
podcast where there was justlike this mourning, there was
just this collective mourning,and the only reason I'm bringing
that up is not to defend Trumpor say that that's good or bad,

(20:17):
but it's to point out that it'snot neutral.
That's the main reason I'mpointing that out, because I
think that that is probably thegroup I'm the most concerned
about right now, because theyare marketing themselves as if
they're this voice of reason inthe middle that are just.
We just want to go with theBible, and they'll even put down

(20:38):
other Christians that havepolitical opinions that disagree
with the left, but they're notgoing to punch toward the left.
My friend John Cooper says leanleft, but they're not going to
punch toward the left, my friendJohn Cooper says lean left,
punch right, and that's kind ofwhat they're doing.

Scott Allen (20:51):
And they do, they have no problem, that's right.
Yeah, doing that, that's forsure.
I would love your thoughts,just before we move on to the
other two, on this one becauseit's been historically so
influential.
Okay, when I say influential,let me clarify that what I see
is that these are people thathave—they're kind of almost

(21:13):
Christian elites.
They are the ones that run ourpublishing houses, our big
ministries, christianity Today,large megachurch pastors, big
ministries and— and yet I don'tthink they're well represented
in the hearts and minds of justyour average everyday
evangelical Christian.
I do think there's been kind ofa separation there a little bit

(21:36):
, where leadership has kind ofgone off a little bit in ways
that the regularchurch-attending Christians
aren't quite following, I agree.

Alisa Childers (21:45):
I do, I agree.
I think there's like thisdisconnect.
In fact, you hear peopletalking about the rise of the
normies.
You know just the normal peoplebecause we've gone to these,
like you mentioned, elites forso long, these big Christian
platforms that are and you knowthe difficulty, sometimes people
refer to this as big Eva, bigevangelical because, it's this

(22:06):
big infrastructure where peopleare rewarded.
And I'm not saying, the GospelCoalition puts out some good
articles still.

Scott Allen (22:13):
Right for sure.

Alisa Childers (22:14):
It's not like you know.
I don't want anyone to mistake.
You don't want to paint with toobroad a brush stroke, exactly
exactly, and I actually used towrite for the Gospel Coalition.
I don't really anymore, but Ithink that you know, and we
can't just all everybody guiltyby association and we can't just
all everybody guilty byassociation, but, with that said
, just the infrastructure itselfof having these big platforms
where people are rewarded withplatform with.

(22:38):
You know, and I saw thisactually, this is when I kind of
backed off from the GospelCoalition a little bit was
during COVID, when I was In fact, I had come out with this big
book review right when theGeorge Floyd thing happened, and
so I was really I was sonervous about my book review
because I was reviewing a bigprogressive book and I thought,
oh, I'm going to get so muchhate for this.
But thankfully everybody wasdistracted by the other thing

(23:00):
that it sort of just flew underthe radar.
But I noticed during that timethat when I would look I think I
was still on Twitter at thistime, but I would look on
Twitter and other authors that Iwould have thought otherwise I
was unified with.
They were all sort of comingtogether with this one voice,
and you mentioned this even inyour summary here, that it was
like you must get the vaccine,because the Bible says love your

(23:22):
neighbor.
And it was like I felt thepressure, like I don't think I'm
allowed to disagree with thisand still, no, they never said
this to me.
And I actually have to give theGospel Coalition a lot of
credit because in subsequentcouple of years they actually
did allow me to do somedisagreement.
So I have to.
I want to acknowledge that, butthere's this pressure within

(23:43):
that big EVA structure to toethe line on the narrative, and
that's, I think, the bigchallenge with some of these big
EVA platforms is that theyreally, for a long time, were
controlling the narrative, andthat's, I think, the big
challenge with some of these bigEva platforms is that they
really, for a long time, werecontrolling the narrative.
And so what I think happenedduring COVID especially because
it wasn't like they were saying,hey, this is a matter of
conscience, we think it's a goodidea to get the vaccine, but as

(24:04):
a Christian, you are free tofollow your conscience on this.
This isn't like something thatthe Bible says, but they were
binding people's consciences towhat I think the Pharisees were
doing man-made traditions.
This is something we're addingto scripture and binding your
conscience with.
And I think that's when normalpeople, the normies like I'm a
normie right we're going.

(24:25):
Something isn't smell rightabout this.
This is not passing the smelltest.
Something's off about this, andso I think it caused a deep
mistrust with some of these bigplatforms that people otherwise
would have said oh, if theGospel Coalition puts it out,
it's reliable, I can trust it.
If it's with Christianity Today, I can trust it if it comes out
of this or that platform.
But I think that all becameeroded during that time because

(24:49):
what we saw was that therereally was this agenda that it
turned out in many cases not inevery case, but in many cases
was actually funded by secularprogressives to change the
church's mind.
And so I think that there'sbeen a lot of trust eroded in
some of those bigger eliteplatforms, as you mentioned, and

(25:09):
I think you know eliteplatforms, as you mentioned, and
I think you know thisparticular group.

Scott Allen (25:15):
on COVID, let's say they were quick to go along
with what you know thegovernment was saying about it
with you know the vaccines andthings like that, because again
its interest was we want to.
You know we want to buildbridges with powerful kind of
elite groups.
We don't want to be seen askind of weird Christians.
We want to be seen as normalChristians normal in the eyes of

(25:38):
these powerful people and theywould say so we can build, you
know, bridges.
You know this is the Winsomeidea.
So we can build bridges oftrust and you know, so that we
can share the gospel withinthese elite circles.
And that's how you kind of winthe culture.
James Davidson Hunter is quiteclear on this in a lot of his
writings.
Culture changes from the topdown.
You need to win these elitepeople and you win them by not

(26:02):
pushing back against them or,you know, by trying to
understand them and I think alot of you know Megan Basham's
book's been highly influentialon you know, kind of pulling the
cover back and saying you guysgot kind of played here a little
bit.
You became pawns in a largerpolitical game.

(26:23):
The left was happy to use you,you know, to move the culture to
the left and you kind of wentalong with that to move the
culture to the left and you kindof went along with that.

Luke Allen (26:33):
Hi friends, I wanted to take a quick minute to
encourage you to hop on thepodcast app that you're
currently listening on and leavethis show a rating and review.
A little one to five starrating will only take you a
second and, depending on howthoughtful you'd like to be, a
little review should only takeyou less than 30 seconds.
So thank you for taking thetime.
Also, I wanted to remind youthat our guest today has an

(26:54):
amazing podcast.
It's one of my favorites.
So if you love podcasts, like Ido, then make sure to subscribe
to the Elisa Childers podcast.
I particularly like to recommendher recent episode, number 274,
with some guy named Scott Allenwho talked about some new book
that he wrote called 10 Words toHeal Our Broken World.
It actually was a great episode, guys, so if you'd like to

(27:16):
check that out, I wouldrecommend it, but so are all of
her episodes.
So again, elisa Childerspodcast.
It's available wherever you getyour podcasts, so go, make sure
to check it out.
Or if you'd like to learn alittle bit more about it, you
can just head over to thisepisode's page, which is linked
in the description.
Thanks again for joining usguys, and I really hope you
enjoy the rest of this episode.

Scott Allen (27:38):
Okay, let's do this .
Let's move on and talk aboutthe next group that Strawn
references in his article.
This is an approach toChristian engagement in the
culture and this is really, insome ways, the main thing that
he's referencing in this article.
Christian nationalism and theway he describes this particular

(27:59):
approach is these are peoplethat are quite proudly
countercultural.
They distrust the powerfulcultural elites.
They distrust the powerfulcultural elites, they distrust
the mainstream media stronglyand they're quite proud to be
engaging in the culture onhot-button cultural issues the
sexual revolution, the wokecultural Marxism, abortion.

(28:23):
So they're quite, very—they'revery, you know, happy to be
deeply engaged in the culture.
They're very, you know, happyto be deeply engaged in the
culture.
They believe that, yeah, thereis a role for the church to
shape culture to—the word thatStrawn uses in the article over
and over is Christianize.

(28:43):
I don't know if I love thatword, but he says that their
focus is on Christianizing thenations and that they would do
this primarily thisChristianizing through politics,
policy and law.
If we can change laws, if wecan change policies, public
policies, work through politicalstructures, then we can
Christianize the nations.

(29:05):
So I mean, that's in a nutshell.
They were very highly criticalof you know, pronouncements
during COVID on vaccines.
Most of them, you know, werehappy to go against those
pronouncements.

(29:33):
Nationalism, elisa.
I'd love your thoughts on itbecause in some ways for me, I
first became aware of this term,this phrase, christian
nationalism.
You know, it was at the sametime that, you know, the Church
was kind of starting to kind ofwake up to the whole woke
cultural Marxist revolution andusing phrases like critical race
theory a lot.

(29:54):
Wow, there's this thing calledcritical race theory.
And then suddenly there wasthis other phrase, christian
nationalism.
It was the people pushing backagainst critical race theory.
So I almost feel like it's—I'veoften felt like it's a kind of
a creation of that first groupin some ways to challenge people
that you know they're opponents.
But I'd love your thoughts onthis whole category of

(30:16):
engagement.
I think Strawn would sayDouglas Wilson, you know, the
theologian and pastor in Idaho,would be a good example of a
Christian nationalist.

Alisa Childers (30:28):
Who was that example again?

Scott Allen (30:30):
Douglas Wilson.

Alisa Childers (30:30):
Doug Wilson, yeah, so yeah, I think I really
just detest the label Christiannationalist because, as you
mentioned, people define thatword a hundred different ways.
I've been called a Christiannationalist for writing an
article that had nothing to dowith politics.
Even that was my firstintroduction into the Christian
nationalist conversation.
Actually, it was back when Iwas writing for Gospel Coalition

(30:52):
.
I wrote an article that wascomparing the theological
beliefs of atheists andprogressive Christians and
showing how there's a lot ofoverlap in what they believe
about the Bible, about heavenand hell and things like that.
It had nothing to do withpolitics at all, but it went
viral on progressive Twitter andit was just thread after thread
of how I'm a white Christiannationalist and I was like what

(31:14):
is happening?
So I am very sympathetic to no,sympathetic isn't the right
word.
I'm very sensitive to justthrowing that term around,
because what you have withpeople like a Douglas Wilson,
joel Web that where people areactually saying I am a Christian

(31:53):
nationalist, here's what thatmeans and then they give their
view.
Now someone like an Ali BethStuckey or even a Charlie Kirk I
don't think they would embracethat label.
I think that they often areunfairly labeled that, in fact,
I talked with Allie on mypodcast about Russell Moore
calling her a dangerousChristian nationalist in his

(32:16):
documentary, which, if youfollow Allie, yes, she's very
engaged politically, she'spassionate about politics and
political philosophy.
She's a big supporter of Trump.
She thinks Trump is the rightguy.
But I've never seen her mixthat or elevate that over her
emphasis on the gospel and onpreaching the gospel, on making

(32:37):
sure that, as Christians, whatwe believe is biblical.
But she is often called aChristian nationalist because
she is politically engaged andon the wrong side, according to
people who are.
You know, because this is thething about Christian
nationalism.
If you define it as puttingpolitics over the gospel, then
progressive Christianity are.
They're Christian nationalists.
Because you have Kamalaspeaking in progressive church.

(33:01):
You know, on her campaign trailshe's speaking in the
progressive churches.
Every progressive church that Ifollow is heavily political,
heavily, heavily political withno apology, but it's just when
Christians on the other sidemaybe have political opinions
that they're bringing into thepublic square, they can just
throw this boogeyman ofChristian nationalism at them,

(33:21):
and then they have to be quietand then, oh no, you know, it's
almost like being called aracist.
You don't want to be that.

Scott Allen (33:26):
Exactly.

Alisa Childers (33:27):
Right, so it's a very effective.
It's a very effectivepejorative.

Scott Allen (33:35):
Yeah, yeah, it's a way of silencing people,
silencing opponents, you know bylabeling them with a dangerous
label.
Yeah, I think that's.
That's really at the heart ofit in some ways.

Alisa Childers (33:40):
I don't I don't know.

Scott Allen (33:42):
I think the first group is a genuine group I mean,
I think for sure you knowthere's but this one, I think,
is it's not that there aren'tsome people, but I think this
one is largely kind of a.
In some ways it's a creation ofthe first group, to kind of you
know to.

Alisa Childers (33:56):
Right, because if you actually think about the
way our country even works andthis was pointed out by my
friend, krista Bontrager in arecent episode on her All the
Things podcast but you have thisidea of what's called
principled pluralism, whereChristians might say well, we
want everybody to bring theirbeliefs into the public square
and then vote on the policiesthat are best and then may the

(34:18):
best idea win.
But if we really think about it,what America was really founded
on was this idea that there isa supreme creator and we have
these unalienable rights basedon the fact that we have there's
a higher law, there's a highermoral law, and that kind of has
to be Judeo-Christian in orderfor any sort of freedom of

(34:38):
speech, freedom of religion, toactually work.
Because if you think aboutIslam, if we just all, if there
are more Muslims in America thanChristians, then we'll be under
Sharia law, and so the questionis is that good?
Or should we try to privilegeone religion without saying you
must be this religion?
But if Christianity isprivileged, then that provides a

(34:59):
free space for other religionsto practice, and I think that's
a very valuable question to askand think about.
But the problem is is, if youanswer.
Well, maybe Christianprinciples should be prioritized
so that other religions areable to freely practice their
religion, but maybe we don'twant a Muslim president.

(35:20):
You will be called a Christiannationalist and I'm not sure
that's fair.

Scott Allen (35:24):
I think these are conversations we need to be able
to have without fear of beingsilenced with the label
Christian nationalist Boy thatlast point that you made I think
is so important, and I justwant to underscore that because
I think you know it's somethingthat I've only kind of come to
recently.
I would put it in a couple ofways.
Number one some religion, ifyou will, is going to underpin

(35:45):
or be at the foundation of anykind of political order.

Alisa Childers (35:48):
That's right.

Scott Allen (35:48):
There's no way of separating them.
There's no way of separatingthem.
There's no purely secular, ifyou will.
In that sense, at thefoundation of everything are
these deep worldview beliefs,and some set of them is going to
be at the foundation of anykind of nation or political or
cultural order.
So it's not a matter of shouldit be Christianity order?

(36:10):
So it's not a matter of whatshould it be Christianity
or—it's something is going to be.
And then the second point isand you're correct in this, this
is really something that'sworthy of a lot of thought Only
the Christian belief system, ofall the ones on tap—secularism,
atheism, islam, animism,whatever it might be kind of
paganism only Christianity haswithin it this seed of freedom

(36:35):
and freedom of conscience thatcreates a space culturally for
other belief systems, this kindof pluralism, for them to
actually have a place at thetable.

Alisa Childers (36:44):
That's right.

Scott Allen (36:45):
And I think that's part of what we saw with the
woke revolution is that itdidn't create any space for
anything else at the table.
It had to destroy, you know.
It had to silence, you knowdestroy any kind of challenger
to its kind of system of belief.
And it woke a lot of people up.
They were like, wow, I don'twant to live in a kind of world

(37:06):
where, you know, there isn'tfreedom.
Let's just say, and it causedpeople to go where did you know
what religious belief systemsupports freedom?
And they came back to the Bible.
So I think it's reallyimportant what you're saying
there.
Let's go on Strawn then putsout a third approach to how

(37:27):
Christians should engage in theculture, and he puts himself
squarely in this camp.
He basically says we have tothink first of all in terms of
just what does it mean to engageculture?
What is culture?
And here he kind of dividesthings.
He says God's involvement inthe world is through the church.

(37:47):
In other words, jesus is theking of the church and of the
believers.
He's not so much king of the,you know, outside the walls of
the church, let's say, or thecommunity of the believers.
That's the fallen world, that'sthe world that is coming under
judgment, it's going to bedestroyed, and so it takes this

(38:09):
kind of negative view towardscultural engagement because it
views it as kind of like wastingyour time, almost it's like
it's not going to matter in theend.
What's going to matter in theend is that people are saved.
This is the real emphasis.
We need to preach the gospel.
People need to be saved.

(38:30):
They need to be brought intothe church and, ultimately, into
heaven.
To be saved, they need to bebrought into the church and
ultimately, into heaven.
Strawn doesn't say that weshouldn't have an influence on
the culture.
He uses pro-life as an exampleof that.
Yes, we should stand againstabortion and things like that.
So he's not against aninfluence in the culture, but he
just doesn't like that havingtoo much emphasis.
The emphasis needs to beclearly on preaching the gospel,

(38:54):
bringing people into the church, discipleship, and this kind of
overly focused involvement onpolitics and culture—and he
points to the Christiannationalists here—that they
would have is wrong.
This is just not right.
We're not called to change theculture through changing laws

(39:16):
and election politics, all ofthat stuff.
That's not really our calling.
Our calling is to preach thegospel and disciple people.
This is a historically hugelyinfluential and clear way of
understanding Christianengagement towards the culture.
Thoughts on what Strawn issaying here.

Alisa Childers (39:40):
Yeah, I'm sympathetic to this view.
I think—I don't think that thisnecessarily has to be an
either-or.
I agree 100% that for aChristian, our political
engagement should be downstreamfrom our theology which,
interesting, a lot of peoplethat are sort of considered to
be in the Christian nationalistcamp would say the same thing

(40:01):
that we start with our theologyand what we believe about God
and preaching the gospel.
But I suppose I'm sympatheticto the view that we—America is a
very unique country.
In fact, I've been readingquite a bit, I've been
memorizing 2 Peter, and you know, subject yourself to every
human institution, whether it beto the emperor as supreme, or
to governors as sent by him topunish evil and reward those who

(40:25):
do good.
And there is a specificinstitution of government that
is very biblical, going all theway back to the.
In fact, you know the threeinstitutions God actually
instituted are marriage, thechurch and, or, you know, family
, church and the government, andthe Bible is very clear that a
good government is supposed to,you know, punish evil and praise

(40:47):
those who do good.
The unique thing about Americais the way we have our
government set up, is thattechnically, we are the king,
the people are, and so we have aresponsibility, as you know,
because of the way ourgovernment is set up, I think to
be a participant in theactivity of punishing evil and
rewarding those who do good.

(41:07):
We're very unique in the worldthat we have a constitutional
republic that's set up that way,and so I think that an extreme
piety maybe, where a Christianwould say we want to be
completely disengaged from—now Idon't think that's what he's
saying, obviously—but I thinkthat—here's my—I guess the way I
see it, since we do have thatset up and this is where we

(41:31):
were— is where we live and whereGod has chosen to put us.
Why wouldn't we have politicalinfluence if we can Now?
Should that ever become ourmain focus?
No.
Should that ever take the placeof the gospel?
No.
But even taking the pro-lifeissue, if I have an opportunity
participating in my governmentin a very unique way that's kind

(41:53):
of unprecedented in all ofhistory to be able to save lives
by voting for policies and evenloudly advocating for policies
that will save more lives, whywouldn't I?
Why wouldn't I do that as aChristian?
And I think the fear is ispeople don't want to be
associated with this label orthat label, and you know, I'm

(42:13):
probably most sympathetic tothis third view because I think
if people's hope is in politics,it's going to fail.
Just like you know, listen,I've been very pleased with some
of the pro-life things Trumphas done since he's been in
office.
That even you know I was veryconcerned about sort of the
gutting of the pro-life platformof the Republicans around the

(42:37):
time Trump kind of rose to powerthis time and I was thinking,
man, the church, we've got tostay on this because we can't,
just because we feel betterabout DEI policies or the border
, we can't let up on this.
But I mean, he's done sometremendous things in the short
time to save a lot of lives, alot of lives.
So I think we can praise thosewho do good and I think that

(42:58):
that's something we can do, butwithout putting our hope in
Trump or our hope in theRepublican Party, because you
know who knows?
I don't know what God's goingto do.
Maybe God will humble Trump andit won't all turn out the way
we were hoping or the way somewere hoping.
Our hope has to be in Christ,our hope has to be in the gospel
and ultimately none of this isgoing to change for good unless

(43:20):
people's hearts change, and I'msympathetic to the idea that I
think it's probably going to geta lot worse before Jesus comes
back.
Like I don't know if we have alittle bit of reprieve right now
.
I don't know what's going on.
All I know is that, as aChristian, and based on my
biblical view of what the Biblesays governments are supposed to
do, I want to be engagedpolitically and speaking out on

(43:40):
policies that are promoting good, and so I guess maybe I'd be a
little bit in between these lasttwo groups.

Luke Allen (43:52):
I suppose, yeah, when I look at these last two
groups, I struggle too, becauseI, I, I, I also am sympathetic
to this last group in the factthat I probably go to a church
that believes in most of thisstuff.
A lot of my favorite uh,authors, preachers, come out of
this camp.
You know kind of camp it's it,it seems.
It seems to me like a lot ofthe issue between this group

(44:15):
we're talking about and the lastgroup we talked about is just
the words that we're using, andI think we're just defining
words differently a lot of timesand that causes a lot of
friction.
And, for example, someone inthis camp really doesn't like,
usually doesn't like, theterminology bring the kingdom or
Christianize the nations, asStrawn points out here, he

(44:36):
dislikes.
But then they would also saybut be salt and light.
And I'm like okay, aren't wesaying the same thing?
Those are pretty similar.
Right, you're just making aninfluence and living out your
faith, right, and I can saybring in the kingdom of God.
You know, that's often a verycommon term in the New Testament
.
Or you can say being salt andlight, and they're very similar.

(44:56):
And yet people will get allhung up on the difference in
terminology there, and I think alot of it does come down to
just the words we're using.
Where I would differ from thisfinal group is that sometimes
they would say, like you weresaying, dad, there's kind of
these, this is the mostimportant thing, this is the
second most important thing.
And I would say, like you weresaying, dad, there's kind of
these, this is the mostimportant thing, this is the
second most important thing.

(45:17):
And I would say, yes, you know,salvation is the most important
thing.
Yes, but then what and it flowsright from there is how you're
going to live out your faith inthis world, what that's going to
look like, and if living outyour faith in this world is just
like this secular thing that weshould try to avoid.
No, I would disagree with that.
No, we need to be salt andlight, as you would say.

Scott Allen (45:37):
Yeah, the way I put that, luke is this group, I
think, makes gospel proclamationslash, salvation the end that
is the mission of the church,whereas I would say it's an
essential means to a bigger end,and I think that's a really
important distinction.
So what I like about this groupis it puts, you know, a lot of

(45:57):
emphasis on the gospel.
We can never lose that.
That's the central story of theBible and we need to be saved.
You know people need to be bornagain, but it's not an end, you
know.
I mean we're born again so thatwe can live out our faith in a
way that blesses nations.
I always see this bigger thingthat God's doing in the world

(46:18):
and you know he wants to seenations blessed.
That, you know, is a theme fromGenesis 12 all the way to the
very end, and he does that bysaving people and redeeming them
so that they can be salt andlight and bring this truth to
the nations.
I think that's the other thingI struggle with with this group

(46:38):
is this idea of kind of thekingdom of God it's only in the
church Kind of it limitsChrist's lordship in a way I'm
not comfortable with.
You know, yes, christ iscertainly lord of the church and
of believers, but he's the lordof all.
You know there isn't aseparation there in my mind.
You know one side acknowledgesit, the other doesn't.

(46:59):
But it doesn't mean that hedoesn't have authority and his
truth—and I think they wouldagree with that.
But somehow that doesn't workout in their theology very well
of cultural engagement.
They almost act like Satan hasthe authority in the fallen
world and we just kind of giveup on it.
This came out by the way in thelast election.

(47:21):
Because who was it?
Barna did all that research andfound out that something like
two-thirds of evangelicals ornot two-thirds, a third don't
vote at all.
And the question was why don'tthey vote?
And I think a lot, know a lotof it has to do with their being
influenced by this school ofthought.
It's kind of it doesn't reallymatter at the end of the day.

(47:42):
So if it doesn't really matter,then why do it?
You know I've got otherimportant things I've got to do,
you know.

Alisa Childers (47:47):
You know, I think that you know that was the
only demographic that thenumbers actually went down on
voting evangelicals and Iactually think I don't know if
it's it's so funny to hear yousay that maybe it's because of
the third.
I actually think it's becauseof the first group because they
advocated so heavily forChristians to.

(48:08):
I think their whole energy wasto get Christians to not vote
for Trump, and so what thatcaused a lot of Christians to do
is say, well, I'm just notgoing to vote at all, because a
lot of Christians were saying Ican't vote for Kamala but I
can't vote for.
They did such a good job ofconvincing the church they can't
vote for Trump that I think alot of evangelicals sat out
because of that group.

Luke Allen (48:29):
That first group.

Alisa Childers (48:30):
But if I could, I just wanted to tell one little
quick story that sort of mightbe a good picture as to what
we're talking about here.
I was teaching at the BillyGraham Association a few years
ago when Russia invaded Ukraineand I was literally sitting.
I've never told this storypublicly.
I was literally sitting acrossthe table at lunch across from

(48:51):
Franklin Graham.
Now people say all sorts ofthings about him and I don't
know him super well.
I've met him.
I toured the Samaritan's Purseoffices there and I was sitting
at lunch across from him whensomeone came over and said that
Ukraine was requesting hisassistance to bring in their
field hospital that they sendout on a plane.
And he said, yes, let's do it.

(49:13):
So before even the governmentcould do anything.
Here's Franklin, I'm watchingit happen.
Franklin Graham sends his fieldhospital out there.
And let me tell you somethingabout Samaritan's Purse.
They always bring the gospelwith them.
They're not one of thoseorganizations that just brings
in the hospital and, oh, we'rejust going to treat the physical
.
No, they treat the spiritualand the physical, and they're

(49:33):
able to go into places thatnobody else can get into.
They bring the gospel with them.
And here's the thing.
This is the revelation I hadwhen I was there, because
everybody's like, oh, frankGraham is so political, he's so
political because it requiresgood politics for him to be able
to send his plane where he sentit that day.

(49:55):
If we are in a totalitarianleftist society, he doesn't have
the freedom to do that anymore.
And so it made me much moresympathetic to being a little
more political, because I got.
I was kind of like I get it, Iget it, you're not.
If things keep going the waythey had been going, he wouldn't
be free to do that, and so I'msympathetic to that as well if

(50:17):
that makes sense, really goodpoint.

Scott Allen (50:19):
Yeah, well, I think , as we wrap up, elisa, you know
, here's these three.
How should we?
I think is the key question,how should we, you know,
be—what's the right approach forChristians, especially now
where we're at at this kind ofunique time?
What's the right approach forChristians, especially now where
we're at at this kind of uniquetime?
What's the right approach forus to be engaged in culture?

(50:39):
Vis-a-vis these three?
Any final thoughts from you, orjust kind of your sense on that
?

Alisa Childers (50:44):
Yeah, I think that whenever something crazy
happens in the world, ourtendency is to go crazy on the
other side, and so I do.
I mean, I have concerns aboutextremes on both sides in the
church right now, and I'vetalked about this on my podcast
as well Like I have concernsabout some of that real far
right Christian nationalismthing, and I'm concerned about

(51:09):
what I'm seeing on the left, andsometimes, when that's the case
, christians recognize that andthey say well, I want to be
balanced, I want to be in themiddle, and that's the wrong way
to think too.
I don't think that balance orbeing in the middle is the goal
right?
Sometimes the right view isgoing to be viewed as extreme.
Sometimes it's going to beviewed as wimpy.

(51:29):
And I think my point would be,as Christians live according to
what is true.
And then culture.
I don't have a whole lot ofhope that culture as a whole.
Maybe there's little pockets oftime.
We might be in one right nowwhere it's going to swing a
little bit more toward commonsense and biblical values.
But I would be sympathetic withthe third group here to say I

(51:52):
don't think that's, I'm notpost-millennial, I don't think
it's looking good for thepost-millennials, to be honest.
Although I mean brothers andsisters in Christ.
I think that's a secondaryissue, but I sort of more hold
the view like this is just goingto keep getting worse.
Apostasy is going to be gettingworse.
The world's going to get worsebefore Jesus comes back.
So I think for the Christian wehave a very rare opportunity

(52:13):
right now.
With the way our country is setup, to be able to have some
influence and we should use that.
Why wouldn't you use it?
But we can't rely on it.
We can't depend on it.
There could come a time in fouryears, eight years, 16 years,
where we are heavily persecutedlike Christians all over the
world, and we need to be readyfor that.
We need to be prepared for thatand we need not be making small

(52:34):
compromises now, because if youmake the small ones now, you'll
make the big ones later.
So, rather than thinking like,oh, I don't want to be called
this or I do want to beassociated with, just do what
the Bible says.
Take advantage of whateveropportunity you have in this
time and be ready to makesacrifices for truth, because
even you know, one thing I'mkind of concerned about too is

(52:56):
that even in some of this maybesecond group, where you have a
lot of people united aroundpolitics and they're all over
the place theologically I'vebeen critical of that publicly
If you're going to be doingpastors conferences to equip
pastors to engage politically,you better have theologically
sound people speaking, notpeople who are atheists, not
people who are part of hereticalmovements or don't believe in

(53:17):
the Trinity.
If you're going to be equippingpastors, those people that are
equipping your pastors should bebiblical Christians, and if
they're not, then that tells methere's something uniting you
that isn't biblical principlesin the gospel.
Nothing wrong with equippingpastors to be politically
engaged, but I think we need tomake sure that we keep the main

(53:41):
thing, the main thing, which isthe gospel, and for the most
part, I think most people thatare lumped into that second
group are doing that well, butthere are always going to be
people on either extreme, andour goal as Christians should be
just right in the bullseye ofbiblical truth, come what may,
whether we are praised orpersecuted, whether we're, you
know, given a party or put in aprison, we just need to speak.

(54:05):
What's true.

Scott Allen (54:06):
Let me just build on what you're saying because I
feel like what I'm excited about.
I think the opportunity that wehave right now is to put the
emphasis on biblical truth, butI mean that quite broadly, in
the sense of Jordan Peterson, Ithink, has done us a favor by
talking about the power of storyand that we all live according
to these deep stories.

(54:27):
Stories are very important thestory of reality and worldview,
and I think that the church, allthree of these categories, have
kind of missed this.
We have to come back to the bigbiblical story.
The third group that Strawnputs himself in really
emphasizes the high point of ourstory the incarnation, the

(54:52):
resurrection and our response tothat story the incarnation, the
resurrection and our responseto that.
It's almost like they pull thatout and kind of neglect the
rest of the story.
You know they downplay a lot ofOld Testament stuff and they
say this is what's reallyimportant, this is what you need
.
But I think what we have to donow is we have to tell, yes,
that central part of the storywithin the context of the whole

(55:14):
story, because I think thatthat's the biblical truth that
I'm speaking of.
You know the whole account, allthe way from the very beginning,
because it answers thequestions of who am I, what's my
purpose as a human being,where's history going?
All of these big worldviewquestions, big worldview
questions, and I think thoseanswers create cultures that are

(55:38):
free, just flourishing, and Ithink this is where a lot of the
Jordan Petersons are coming toright now.
They're seeing that and I'mafraid that the Christians need
to—we used to, I think theChurch used to understand that
Our job is to bring this wholestory to the nations, because

(55:58):
the story that guides thosenations, whether it be an
animistic story or a secularstory, is destroying them and
they need the whole story, thetrue story.
This is truth, and we have torepresent that.
Not just you're a sinner andyou need to be saved, as central
as that is to our story, butthe whole thing and that's what

(56:19):
I'm hoping for right now is justto kind of.
Can we return to that wholestory and then represent that?
Speak that truthfully,regardless of what people think
of us, elites or whoever, butrepresent that well and clearly
for the good of the nations.

Alisa Childers (56:36):
Thoughts on that Elisa.

Scott Allen (56:38):
I'm putting my cards on the table.
That's my heart.

Alisa Childers (56:40):
Yeah, and that's .
I think my main goal is if wehave the opportunity to
influence the nations right now,why wouldn't we do that?
Why wouldn't we use every—Imean, if you even think about
Christians in the first century,the Roman roads are what caused
them to be able to go out andspread the gospel, which really
did sort of in a way I don'tnecessarily mean it in the, you
know, in the Christiannationalism kind of way but it

(57:01):
Christianized the nations.
And we have Western culture.
We have a lot of things thatwere built on Christian
principles.
Not everybody within thatsystem is a Christian or was a
Christian, but there's a sensein which that brought good to
the world, and why wouldn't weif we have the opportunity?
I think my main point is wejust need to be ready for either
and do what we can, but also beready to suffer as well,
because that's promised.

Scott Allen (57:21):
Going back historically, I think, is
helpful, and this is a littlebit of where I have a critique
with the Christian nationalistgroup.
I love their engagement inpolitics and policy, but my
concern is they put too muchemphasis on that, whereas the
older church said no God's Lordof everything over.
You know farming andagriculture and education, and

(57:42):
even language itself and wordsand definitions, everything, and
so we need to live out thetruth of all of that in all of
these areas.
And so they created beautifularchitecture and art and music
and they created an entireculture.
In other words, it wasn't justhey, we need to come into this
nation and change the politicsof the policy.

(58:04):
I'm not saying that's notimportant, that's very important
.
But it was much broader.
They had a much broaderunderstanding because they saw
biblical truth as touchingeverything you know.

Alisa Childers (58:18):
Yeah.

Scott Allen (58:18):
And this is where I sometimes struggle a little bit
with when I talk about theChristian nationalist approach.
It's like if we could justright, if we could just get that
policy changed.
Or you know even DEI, now if wecould just get the DEI out, you
know, and I'm like you'retalking on a policy level,
that's good, but we have to goback to this broader worldview,

(58:40):
this whole story, the wholething needs to be changed at the
very front end of that.

Alisa Childers (58:45):
Well, and just to add to your point, there,
it's like with DEI.
I mean, I'm thankful thatthey're you know, you see some
of these big companies gettingrid of their DEI policies.
It's now an official thing ofthe government, but DEI is so
deep, oh yes, but DEI is sodeeply embedded in everything,
even through other names, likesocial, emotional, learning and
all sorts of things that are sodeeply embedded.

(59:07):
Policies alone aren't going tochange.
Like you said, they're notgoing to change people's hearts,
and I wonder if we're not justmaybe seeing a little bit of
both.
I'm hopeful that maybe we are,but ultimately, yeah, a policy
isn't going to change a heartand ultimately, these things get
deeply embedded because of thedarkness of people's hearts, and

(59:29):
that should be the focus.

Luke Allen (59:31):
Yeah, policies downstream, from paradigm and
principle and truth of thegospel.
Elisa, you travel around a lotand do a lot of teaching on how
to do what we're talking aboutright now, on how to equip
people with biblically soundtheologies and how to live those
out in their lives.
What are some practical stepsthat you have seen people pick

(59:51):
up and that have changed theirlives as they're going about
this process of hopefullydiscipling their friends and
their families and eventuallytheir nations?
What are some of those simpletakeaway steps that you've seen
really really make a difference?
I know a lot of times thisstuff can become head knowledge
really quickly and not exactlyhands knowledge, so yeah, that's

(01:00:12):
an interesting question.

Alisa Childers (01:00:13):
I think one thing that I think is probably
good is that I think people arethinking for themselves a little
more.
I mean, it's kind of like theWild West out there right now,
where it used to be.
Maybe you could turn on thenews at night and everybody was
sort of united around that thisthing happened and that's a bad
thing.
This thing happened and that'sa good thing.
And I think also, people deeplydistrust, obviously, the legacy

(01:00:36):
media now.
So there's a lot ofconversations happening where
people aren't so constrainedmaybe by those narratives that
have been controlling things forso long, whether it be the
elites in the church or theelites in the news or the elites
wherever it might be.
I think the normies, I like therise of the normies.
I think people are like youknow what?
I'm a normal person, I have abrain, I can think through these

(01:00:56):
things, and I think maybepeople are feeling less fear to
just say what they think, and Ithink this is a good thing.
I think that's a really goodthing and, honestly, even some
of the secular people havereally gone a long way to help
that.
It's people like Joe Rogan,where he'll have a conversation
with anybody, and I think that'sbeen good for our culture and
it's kind of provided thisatmosphere of hey, let's just

(01:01:20):
talk about ideas and not worryso much about what we're
supposed to say and what we'renot supposed to say, and I think
that that does provide a spacefor people to bring the gospel
into a place that maybe itwouldn't have been welcomed
before.

Luke Allen (01:01:34):
That's super helpful .
For me, a practical takeaway inthis whole discussion was I
just reread your book Live yourTruth and Others' Lies.
That was super helpful.
There's a bunch of reallyhelpful practical takeaways that
I took away from that book andthat book, I think, does a good
job of supporting someone in,you could say, kind of the good
times right now.
We live in a pretty comfysociety and if you can be

(01:01:56):
faithful in these times, thenyou're going to be faithful when
the battle hits.
And so often we fantasize of,oh, if things get really bad and
persecution happens, I'll bestrong.
It's like, yeah, well, maybe,but what are you doing right now
?

Alisa Childers (01:02:07):
That's a great point.
I think it's harder to befaithful in an affluent,
successful culture than it isbeing it's harder to be faithful
in an affluent, successfulculture than it is being.

Luke Allen (01:02:16):
You know it's not easy to be persecuted, but it's
probably harder to be faithfulin an affluent culture.
Yeah, it's too comfortable tobe quiet.

Alisa Childers (01:02:27):
It's so many distractions.

Scott Allen (01:02:28):
Yeah Well, listen, Lisa, I sure appreciate you just
coming on to the podcast andjust engaging with us on this
and helping us try to sort ourthinking out as well and just
move the ball forward.
It's been really helpful for meto get your thoughts and
reactions.
I just so appreciate you're areal sensitive kind of watcher
of culture and what's happeningand just have a deep heart for

(01:02:52):
the church and desire for thechurch to be all that God wants
it to be.
So just really grateful,grateful for this opportunity.
Any final thoughts from you aswe wrap up today?

Alisa Childers (01:03:02):
No, I really loved this.
This was a really interestingconversation so I appreciate the
thoughtful questions andsending that article and kind of
getting to just chat throughsome of these things.
I loved it, thank you.

Scott Allen (01:03:14):
We'll keep pushing forward because I really do
believe God is giving the churcha unique window of opportunity.
Right now, I feel a sense ofresponsibility to how can we
just really make the most ofthis unique time that we're in
right now.
So let's keep learning togetherand seeking the Lord and being

(01:03:34):
faithful as we were able to.
So, Elisa, thank you forjoining us today on this episode
of Ideas have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations.

Luke Allen (01:03:48):
Thank you for joining us for this discussion
with Elisa Childers.
If this discussion was helpfulfor you and you'd like to
continue to delve into today'stopic, make sure to visit this
episode's page, which is linkedin the show notes, because on it
we have included all of theresources that we mentioned
during this episode, includingOwen Strawn's fascinating
article that inspired today'stopic, and then, on that page,

(01:04:09):
we've also, of course, includedmore information about today's
guest, elisa Childers, includinglinks to all of her amazing
resources, including her website, elisachilderscom, her three
books that we mentioned at thebeginning of the episode, and
then her podcast, of course,that I mentioned during the
break, the Elisa Childerspodcast.
So, again, all that and more ison the episode page, which is

(01:04:30):
linked in the description and isalso available on our website,
disciplenationsorg.
Thanks again to each and everyone of you guys for your time
and attention, which is linkedin the description and is also
available on our website,disciplenationsorg.
Thanks again to each and everyone of you guys for your time
and attention today.
We really appreciate it and wehope that you'll join us again
for another episode on Ideashave Consequences.

(01:05:02):
You.