Kids Who Own Their Faith for Life | Dr. Josh Mulvihill

More than 60% of children who grow up in church will walk away from it in their young adult years, according to Barna. Why is this happening—and what can be done to reverse the trend? Dr. Josh Mulvihill, Executive Director of Church and Family Ministry at RenewaNation, joins us to unpack the root of the crisis: a breakdown in biblical discipleship. He shares a compelling vision for how families, churches, and schools can work together to raise children with resilient, gospel-centered worldviews—and why it starts with parents and grandparents reclaiming their God-given role’s as the primary disciplers.

Main Topics:

1. The Discipleship Disconnect – Why many Christian parents now believe it’s the church’s job to disciple their kids
2. The Three-Stranded Cord – How family, church, and education can align to build a strong biblical foundation
3. The Power of Grandparents – Why grandparents are overlooking their vital biblical role in passing down faith to future generations

Raising gospel-centered families isn’t about perfection—it’s about faithfulness, and the courage to make your home the frontlines of spiritual formation.

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• View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
• Why Social Justice is Not Biblical Justice

Episode Transcript

Josh Mulvihill (00:03):
There's a lot of really solid young Christian
people coming up.
That gives me great hope andI'm really excited to see how
God would use them.
And you know, sometimes it'snot what we do as individuals,
it's who we raise that makes thegreatest impact in this world
for Christ, and so I'm soexcited to see our kids and
grandkids.

(00:23):
What God does through them, andI hope it's way more than
anything that all of us didtogether.
Wouldn't that be great?

Luke Allen (00:39):
Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show, we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelto Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show, we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world, to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.

(00:59):
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.

Scott Allen (01:19):
Well, welcome again everyone to another episode of
Ideas have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen, I'm thepresident of the DNA and joined
today by my beloved co-workers,and one of whom is my son, luke.
Hi, luke Great.

Luke Allen (01:37):
Good to be here.

Scott Allen (01:38):
Hey, and also by Dwight Vogt.
Dwight, good to see you Hi.

Dwight Vogt (01:42):
Scott.

Scott Allen (01:43):
Yeah, great to see you, and today I'm really
excited to welcome to thepodcast Josh Mulville.
Josh is a friend, josh, I'llcall you a friend.
We connected here a couple ofyears ago I think it was around
the book why Social Justice isNot Biblical Justice, so that

(02:04):
came out in about 2020, and Joshis very like-minded as a leader
, a ministry leader, in anorganization that also does a
lot of biblical worldviewtraining and equipping, and so
we connected and really I'veenjoyed and been blessed by the

(02:25):
connection since.
Josh, it's great to have youwith us.

Josh Mulvihill (02:28):
Yeah, it is great to be here and I'm really
grateful for the book you wrotewhy Social Justice is Not
Biblical Justice, and if you arelistening and you haven't read
it, I highly commend it.
Everywhere we go and speak, webring that book and I have the
joy of serving on the board ofAwana and had all of the board

(02:52):
of Awana read it, and Scott wasgracious enough to join us for
about a half an hour and it wasreally helpful because it just
it put a flag in the groundabout where we're gonna stand on
certain topics thatorganizations often don't have
enough clarity about and ittakes them down paths that they

(03:14):
don't intend to go or maybe theydo.
But it was just super helpfulfor for Juana and for the
different organizations that Ihave a the joy of being part of.
So thank you for that book andfor the different organizations
that I have the joy of beingpart of.
So thank you for that book andI can't recommend it highly
enough.

Scott Allen (03:30):
Oh thanks, josh.
I've been so blessed by yourencouragement and the way that
you're using it.
Just being a part of that boardmeeting with Awana leaders was
a real honor.
You know it's such a powerfulministry.
Let me just introduce you alittle bit more, josh, and feel
free to add to what I'm going toshare here, but just so our

(03:50):
listeners know a little bitabout who you are.
Josh has earned his PhD infamily ministry from Southern
Baptist Theological Seminary.
He is also the author ofseveral books, including Grand
Parenting and Preparing yourChildren for Marriage.
He's a frequent speaker atconferences, a popular radio

(04:12):
guest on programs such as MoodyRadio, family Life Today, the
Hugh Hewitt Show and theChristian Worldview.
He's a pastor.
He's been a pastor for nearly20 years and presently he's the
executive director of church andfamily ministry at a wonderful
sister organization called Renewa Nation, and we have just

(04:33):
really high regard for theministry of Renew a Nation,
where he works to equip parentsand grandparents to disciple
their families.
He also consults with churchleaders to help them design
biblically-based,christ-centered family
ministries that focus on abiblical worldview.
Josh, you are joining us todayfrom Minnesota, is that correct?

Josh Mulvihill (04:56):
Yeah, that's correct.
It's like 45 here.
I'm still in a sweater.
It's just nuts this time ofyear.

Scott Allen (05:02):
Wow, okay, well, luke and I are up in Oregon and
it's a little warmer than thathere, so I'm glad we can cast
off our sweaters at least forthe day.
So, anyways, well, josh, thanksfor joining us and thanks for
your ministry as well.
I actually what stood out to meas I was reading your bio there
was the title of the book GrandParenting.

(05:23):
I thought I've got to get thatbook.
I'm two years in, I know.

Josh Mulvihill (05:35):
I'm sure I would actually love to hear your
thoughts on that.
How many grandkids arerepresented on the call today
between Scott and Dwight?

Scott Allen (05:40):
Dwight, you start, I've got three.
Well, I've got two in the ovenand one one in Nashville, so
yeah, and uh, yeah, luke andSabrina, they have two kids uh,
wonderful young kids and my son,isaac has one, so we have three
.
And then my daughter Kayla ispregnant um, her first.

(06:04):
And yeah, so that's where we'reat.
So I'm on the learning curve ofgrandparenting right now.

Josh Mulvihill (06:12):
Very exciting.

Scott Allen (06:13):
Yeah, it is exciting.
It's really exciting, Josh.
I'd love to hear more of yourbackstory and tell us a little
bit about how you ended up withsuch a clear focus on family
discipleship, helping kids,parents, build biblical
worldview.
Just share a little bit of yourbackstory.

Josh Mulvihill (06:33):
So as I started as a young pastor, wanting to be
the best shepherd I could forfamilies I met, decided to meet
with every family at our church.
I was at a church of aboutseven, 800 and every family that
had children in my ministry Iwas a student pastor at this

(06:53):
church and I think it equated toabout 40 or 50 families.
So my goal was to meet withevery family during a 12 month
calendar period, like one a week, sit down for lunch, get to
know the family.
And I just asked two what Ithought were very simple
questions.

(07:14):
One was just to introduce theirfamily to me as a new pastor.
You know who are.
You.
Give me the intro to yourfamily.
What makes you tick?
And then the second I asked waswhat are you doing to disciple
your children?
Which at the time it ended upbecoming kind of an unofficial
research project that I didn'tintend on.

(07:34):
And I, you know I'd go out tolunch with the family the kids
would be with.
So the parents were kind ofstuck that their kids were
sitting there.
They had to tell the truthbecause if they didn't, you know
, the kids were were kind ofstuck that their kids were
sitting there.
They had to tell the truthbecause if they didn't, you know
the kids were kids wouldcorrect them.
If they didn't and I was I wasreally surprised.
You know, there were a numberof families that were doing a

(07:55):
really spectacular job and I wasreally blessed to hear the
intentionality, the consistency,the regularity.
You know every family is verydifferent in how they navigated
that, but I was also reallysurprised at the volume of
families at our church thatthere was not a lot of
intentionality or consistencyand regularity that was

(08:17):
happening on the familydiscipleship front and of course
there were a variety of reasonswhy, as they would share.
Course there were a variety ofreasons why as they would share.
But you know, as I, you know, asthe weeks wore on and the
number of families I met withwore on, you know, it dawned on
me that for a very large portionof the children that what they

(08:39):
were getting in the classroomwith me as a pastor was the
majority of what they weregetting at all spiritually.
Many of them are in publicschool.
So you know, I know there's avariety of educational choices,
probably from listeners on thispodcast, and so you know what I
can at least say is we know thatkids aren't getting a biblical

(09:02):
worldview if they're in thepublic school world and in their
home, if they weren't beingconsistently discipled, that
left the church.
And I don't know if you knowthe statistics on the percentage
of kids that go to church.
It tends to be a couple times aweek is the typical ebbs and

(09:23):
flows based on the size of thechurch.
Smaller churches tend to be alittle higher than your larger
churches, but anyways it likethis weight landed on my
shoulders on two fronts.
One, I needed to be really,really intentional that I didn't
waste a single hour with theseyoung people, a single hour with

(09:47):
these young people.
But two, that we had to makesure these parents that needed
whatever they needed to becomeactive on the discipleship front
in their homes.
We needed to give that to them.
And so that was kind of thestarting place for me.
The worldview component, theimportance of that man, if kids

(10:08):
don't have that, theirfoundation is just, is not good.
And you know the statistics onkids most kids develop their
worldview by around the age of13.
This is a George Barnastatistic that he you know.
He says statistically what aperson believes at the age of 13

(10:29):
, which is about eighth grade isgenerally what they believe
when they're an adult.
Of course there's exceptions toeverything, but that you know,
that means that that child, thegrade school, that the middle
school age range, becomes reallycritical.
That we're teaching God's truthand you know we want that to

(10:54):
come through, at least at RenewNation.
We believe that that's besthappening through the family,
first the church and thenthrough education, and when
those three areas are aligned.
Teaching God's truth.
That's a three-stranded cordthat's really hard to break in a
child's life and oftentimeswhen you can get two out of the

(11:17):
three really strong, that givesyoung people a good fighting
chance.
But when you get multiple thatare not teaching God's truth,
that's a big hill for a lot ofthose kids to climb.
It's just a math equation.
You've got a lot going intotheir heads and their hearts
that they have to circumvent andit's a lot to work through.

(11:41):
When you're a young person in aformative stage to you know to
try to find truth from error.
And so you know the family,though, if that's really solid
and it teaches God's truth, youknow that's kind of the core to
it all.
At least you know scripturallyby God's design.
So that's been my heartbeat,both parents and grandparents

(12:04):
critical that they're teachingGod's truth.
And I've, you know, I've reallygiven my life to that.
I'm on the doorstep of 50.
And it's been really since mywhole life has been towards that
end.

Scott Allen (12:18):
Wow, josh, it's really great that you're on
right now, because we just hadGeorge Barna on the podcast.
Was it about.
Was it a week and a half ago,luke?
I'm trying to remember?
It was really recent and youknow we were talking about his
recent research and you know hegoes into depth on how few
American Christians have abiblical worldview.

(12:38):
You know, and he defines, youknow what that means, and we
talked about that.
And then we got into what arethe most strategic things that
we can do to help turn thisaround.
It's kind of a crisis and hesaid church is really important.
He mentioned family, but hesaid the most strategic role in
a church is the children'sministry area.

(13:00):
And I was taken by that.
And it wasn't that they, thechurch, would impart kind of
biblical truth, biblicalworldview, discipleship
exclusively, but primarily theyneed to have a vision to equip
the parents, just to discipletheir own kids and to teach them
things like you are the primarydiscipler of your kids, because
for some reason that messageisn't getting across very well

(13:25):
and parents think, oh, I'llbring my kids to church, they'll
disciple them, and very oftenthe church doesn't have much of
a vision to do that.
And so I love yourthree-stranded cord idea a lot.
I think that's very powerful.
But anyways, it's great thatyou're focused on this.
I was really taken by whatGeorge Barna was sharing with us

(13:46):
about the strategic nature ofthat.
Why is it you think we, whetherit's the family or the church I
think there's just a neglecthere.
Why do you think that's thecase?

Josh Mulvihill (13:59):
Well, I think the church has had really good
intentions with children andyouth ministry.
Church has had really goodintentions with children and
youth ministry and historically,you know, for hundreds of years
it has been a blessing to manyyoung people.
But I think the unintendedconsequence of the age-based
ministry approach is thatparents get the message pretty

(14:19):
quick that the church is theprimary disciple maker of young
people.
And so it's really interesting.
I'm on the board of Awana andwe do quite a few research
studies.
One of our recent ones justliterally in the last year or
two we asked pastors and parentswho they believe is the primary

(14:40):
disciple maker of young peopleand previously almost all the
studies you see it's like nearlyunanimous it's parents' job and
that was the case for pastors.
When they answered this studywas 95% said it's the parents'
job.
This is the first study I'veever seen that it came back
different for parents 49% ofparents said it's the church's

(15:04):
job.
And you look at that and you gowhy are parents saying that now
?
And my interpretation of thatis that I think the perception
of parents is finally cominginto alignment with the decades
long function of the church.
So the church has done, has setaside.

(15:28):
I mean, just think about theamount of staffing, money and
time set aside for children'sand youth ministry.
I mean, there are literallyhundreds of thousands of
full-time paid individuals inthis arena, in the church, today
.
That is unprecedented in thehistory of christianity and uh

(15:54):
and and that speaks prettystrongly, especially when
parents are getting the message.
We have five kids, uh, we haveones in college, our oldest, but
we have multiple in high schooland middle school and we get,
you know, emails every singleweek from our church about, you
know, this is what we're doingthis week, which I appreciate,

(16:16):
the communication.
But all the things are beingtaught, all the events to go to,
the Wednesday night, the Sundaymorning, the retreats, the VBSs
, great stuff, not minimizingthat.
But when you, you know, yearafter year, week after week,
month after month, that startsto communicate pretty strongly

(16:36):
to parents about something.
And I think parents are startingto say well, I, you know, I
don't know the answer to thisbig doctrinal question.
Or, you know, go ask your youthpastor.
That's not uncommon and I wouldactually get that from time to

(16:57):
time from parents who wouldrequest that I had a
conversation with their child.
I remember distinctly a parentcame up to me and said my
daughter has some questionsabout the Muslim religion.
I'm not really comfortable inhaving that conversation with
her.
Would you have thatconversation?
And that you know that's justone example.

(17:17):
So parents need to be remindedregularly that you know God's
good design is for them todisciple their children and the
church is, the church is asupport.
It is, you know, it's asupplement, and when we get that
backwards, when we get thingsout of alignment with God's

(17:39):
design, you know we don't getgood results.
And so I would compare it tolike a steak dinner and vitamins
.
The church is like a withage-based ministry.
The church is like a vitamin inthe sense that it's good, it's
helpful, it's healthy.
But if we only lived onvitamins and didn't have the

(18:02):
regular ongoing meal of familydiscipleship, you know we would
recognize pretty quick therewould get to be an unhealthy
kind of situation.
And so that's a big, you knowthat's a big deal.
I would also say corporateworship.
It's really critical that ourkids are in corporate worship
and we've lost the vision forthat and created essentially a

(18:26):
church within a church, theseage-based ministries that
function as their own worshipareas.
I don't need to do a biblicaltheology on intergenerational
corporate worship today.
But when you look cover tocover, through the Bible all the
generations meet and worshiptogether.
It's Old and New Testament,joshua 835, even Old Testament

(18:50):
you can look at.
You know, all of us know thepassage of children obey your
parents and the Lord and thatwas spoken directly to children,
meaning they had to be in theworship service to hear that and
it's just.
It's as unhealthy as having theThanksgiving dinner table where

(19:11):
we have the kids table and theparents table and you know, once
in a while that's fine.
But if we did that every singlemeal with our children, you
know, if your parents listeningand your children and we had the
kids table and the parentstable for every dinner, we would
recognize pretty quick that thefamily dynamic and the health
of our family would be impactedby that with essentially two

(19:34):
different meals.
Well, we've done that withcorporate worship on Sundays at
many churches we have an adultmeal and a kid's meal and then
we do that year after year afteryear and that begins to impact
our children.
So it doesn't mean we get ridof the age-based ministry.

(19:55):
It means that it finds itsplace as a support structure,
not as the replacement for, andso like with our family.
You know, as a pastor, with ourchurch, we would tell our
congregation.
And so like with our family,you know, as a pastor, with our
church, we would tell ourcongregation.
We want your family to worshipone and serve, or in a classroom
, two.
So we hope, you know, we hopeyou come two hours and then it's
not an either or it's a both,and Because there is, there's

(20:16):
value in both but.
But we just need to make surethat we want to operate in
alignment with God's word, andhe has created the family and
corporate worship.
So we would say, with ourfamilies, our goal is every
family worshiping together.
It has two prongs, meaning wewant you to do family worship at

(20:36):
home, saturate your kids withGod's word.
That's the program we're after,if you want to call it that.
And at church, the programwe're after for families is
corporate worship.
And if we can get you know, wecan get families worshiping
corporately in the church andworshiping as a family at home.
You know, reading God's word,praying, singing praises, that's

(21:00):
a really good foundation forGod's truth to happen on the
family and the church side justas a regular.
It just creates the weeklyhabits and rhythms for good
things to happen.
They're not in and of itself.
They can become pharisaical ifthe heart's not there but those

(21:22):
are getting into thepracticalities of what does it
actually look like and how doesthis function well, to be
helpful for families andchurches.

Luke Allen (21:36):
Hey friends, a couple quick announcements for
you.
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(21:57):
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(22:18):
Again, if you give by June 10th, your gift will be doubled.
Thank you so much for yoursupport.
And one more thing before we hopback into the discussion.
I also wanted to recommend thepowerful resource, which is the
book why Social Justice Is NotBiblical Justice that Dr
Mulville mentioned at thebeginning of the episode.
This book is by my dad, scottAllen, and yes, you might think
I'm biased, but I will say I'mprobably his harshest critic.

(22:41):
So hear me out.
If you've been wrestling withthis term, social justice or any
of its similar counterpartswhether that's reproductive
justice or environmental justiceand you've been hearing these
discussions in your workplace orat your children's schools, or
even in your church, and you'rewondering how all of this lines
up with scripture, then thisbook is a must read.
In it you'll learn thedifference between today's

(23:03):
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And if you don't want to takemy word for it, then just head
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(23:23):
Again, the book's called whySocial Justice Is Not Biblical
Justice by Scott Allen.
To grab your copy today, youcan just again head over to
Amazon or wherever you get yourbooks, or just tap the link in
the show notes.

Scott Allen (23:38):
Josh, I'm thinking of parents maybe right now who,
if you said you're the primarydiscipler of your children, you
should do things like homeworship, I mean they would be
intimidated.
You know, and I know in my owncase I'm also the father of five
kids and yet, you know, when Igrew up, went to the public
school nominal Christian familyloved my parents but we didn't

(24:00):
have home worship.
I never saw it practiced, youknow.
And so somebody says, hey, youshould do home worship.
I remember when I first heardthat I was like it's very
intimidating and I'm imaginingthere's still a lot of parents,
maybe even listening to thispodcast, who are going.
I don't know how to do that.
What are some great kind ofpractical first steps that you

(24:21):
could suggest, josh?
Practical first steps that?

Josh Mulvihill (24:25):
you could suggest Josh.
Well, interestingly enough,Deuteronomy 6, it starts with
love the Lord, your God, withall your heart and then it moves
to talk about these things andimpress them on your children.
So the actual first place tostart for us as parents is we
want our heart affection to befor the Lord and of course

(24:45):
that's impossible for any of usto do perfectly.
That's why we need Christ.
But our kids will see reallyquickly what is our kind of,
what is, what are we living ourlife for and what do we love
most in life?
It's actually a really kind ofconvicting question.
If we ever ask your kids, whatdo you think I love the most in

(25:05):
this life?
And you know all of us wouldhope, I think we would hope that
they'd say, say, Christ or theLord.
But many times I think asparents, the love of the Lord it
may end up not coming throughquite as we had hoped or there
may end up actually being adivided heart that some parents

(25:26):
have.
That we truly do have adifferent life love that we are
essentially pursuing and ourkids see that pretty quick.
They know if mom and dad aretruly, truly in love with the
Lord and pursuing Him and ourkids tend to, I think, tend to

(25:49):
gravitate towards the thingsthat we're passionate about as
parents, and so we could justthink about our own parents and
the things that we love in life,even like hobbies and stuff.
You know, I'm from Minnesota.
I grew up a Vikings fan and Ilove the Vikings.
Even though they never, everwin at all, Um, I'm still a

(26:11):
Vikings fan, Um, and they eventhe hot.
You know the hobbies we havewith outdoors and hunting and
fishing and gardening.
Those are things that I, uh,had passed down to me from
parents and grandparents.
Um, and the love of the Lordhas been passed down to me by my
parents, and so Lord has beenpassed down to me by my parents.

(26:34):
And so I think that's where itstarts.
It really isn't even like doall these things, it is a, it's
a heart, it's a heart affectionand, interestingly enough, I
think, when we, when there'ssomething we really love, it's
just it, it, it's catchy.
Other people see passion andthey and they see purpose and

(26:54):
they say, you know what?
This isn't something they'relike trying to, it's just who
they are, and that that tends tojust bleed off.
So that would be the firstthing is.
It's not actually anything weneed to necessarily do in the
sense of with our kids.
It's, you know, I guess it'smore of a horizontal thing.

(27:15):
First is how are we doing withthe Lord?
And then it's the or.
That's the vertical, I guess,then it's the horizontal with
our kids.
If we love God, the naturaltendency is, well, we want to
help our kids love God and soit's going to just naturally,
we're going to want to talkabout him, we're going to want
to teach about it.
And for those that feel like,oh man, I don't really know what

(27:37):
to do, you know, with ourcongregation I used to do like a
one hour training thing forfamily worship, and it was
really to demystify familyworship.
I'd set my kids up their backs,would be facing everybody and we
would essentially just gothrough family worship.
It would be five or ten minutesreally short, just demystify it

(28:00):
.
I wanted everybody to feel like, well, that's it, that's all
you do.
Yeah, there's not a lot to it.
What we do with our kids.
When they were younger, we wouldread at the end of kids when
they were younger, we would readum at the end of dinner when
they're still eating, and I'mkind of you know I I just feel
like having food, busy hands andbusy mouths is helpful for

(28:21):
younger kids, um, and we wouldread um short, couple, couple
verses and we had a couplediscussion questions.
I I used two books by MartyMachowski called the Long Story
Short and the Old Story New, andit literally was just a Bible
reading plan and so I'd read onelittle chunk.

(28:42):
We'd put a bookmark in it nexttime we read.
So we aimed for like three orfour times a week and sometimes
we hit it, sometimes we didn't.
For like three or four times aweek and sometimes we hit it,
sometimes we didn't, and wewould just kind of slowly work
through and had conversations.
I found the discussionquestions that he wrote on each
of the little chunks realhelpful, but that was it, and

(29:03):
sometimes you know it just.
It mostly was mundane, but itit just.
You know God's word promises tonever return void, and so just
the practice of reading,discussing was a huge blessing.
And as our kids got older, Ithink we often talk about this
with like preschool, gradeschool age kids and that's not

(29:25):
what we've necessarily done.
As our kids have moved into theteen, young adult years Now
we've actually done more of aBible study method where my kids
study.
We do a chapter of the Bibleeach.
We study it on our own and thenwe come together on a Wednesday
night every other week so twicea month and we talk through the

(29:50):
chapter.
We do this with a group ofother fathers and sons and so
we'll work through a book or twoof the Bible in a school year
with that method and we get tohave some pretty good in-depth
conversations doing that.
We've.
You know, we strategicallychoose books of the Bible that
we think are helpful for ourkids to hear and you know, I

(30:11):
think if it's new for a familyit's just like anything and like
learning any new skill.
There's always a learning curveand kids that are.
You know, if it's different forour family than anything we've
ever done, there's the, there'sthe period of like.
All right, this is weird andawkward and kids might roll
their eyes and say they don'tlike it, but you just got to
fight through that.

(30:32):
Most kids I've found arereceptive.
In fact, I remember one mom oneSunday morning from our church.
She was across the commons areain our church and she was so
excited because we had justtalked about doing family
worship at church.
And the next Sunday she washolding her phone out and she
was yelling Pastor Josh, Pastor,doing family worship at church.
And the next Sunday she washolding her phone out and she

(30:52):
was yelling Pastor Josh, Pastor,Josh, look at this.
And she ran over to me andshowed me a picture of her
family, her four children.
They're all older, like teenageaged.
There's a big bowl of popcornon the ottoman.
And she said this is the firsttime we've read the Bible as a
family.

(31:12):
She was a single mom and shegoes in it and it went great.
I mean, it was, it wasn't long.
And so I would just say committo you know, commit to something
and start, and that's thehardest thing.
Gk Chesterton said ifsomething's worth doing, it's
worth doing poorly.
And this is one of those things.

(31:33):
Like, don't worry aboutperfection, Don't worry about
length, Just like get a coupleunder your belt, Commit to doing
it, for, you know, be willingto do it for six weeks or 12
weeks, and even if it kind oftakes a little bit to get know,
once the pattern is there, youdon't pick a certain number of

(31:54):
times, we don't need to getlegalistic about it.
So pick something that worksfor you.
A time of the day, whateverShort, is good, especially at
first, and I think God willbless that, that's great.
Josh, josh, I've got a commentand a question.

Dwight Vogt (32:13):
First of all, you're a lot of memories with me
because I grew up in aChristian home.
My father was a pastor and wehad family worship probably
every morning and sometimes inthe afternoon.
But raising my own kids it feltlike more of a challenge.
But going back to my parents,you said kids know the heart of
your parent and they know theirmotivation and what's their
passion.
And I've often thought you knowif, if I was to walk away from

(32:36):
my parents' faith, I might beable to walk away from some
doctrinal statement, but I couldnever walk away from their
passion.
I I I'm sure that with people,there was no way I could deny
what they actually felt andbelieved and what motivated
their lives and that was sopowerful.
So I I hear you when you saythat that kids can read us and

(32:59):
and somehow we have to reflectthat.
Um, and then you know, in ourown experience, we just, uh,
yeah, we, we tried, we adaptedas they grew, but it was always,
it was a challenge, but it wasalways good to to interact with
our kids around questions of theBible and talking about what
they'd heard here or there orchurch or in school and whatnot.

(33:20):
You mentioned grandparents,josh, and you've been talking
about family altar and ourfamily worship.
What about grandparents?
What's your word for them?
And our family worship?
What about grandparents?
What's your word for them?

Josh Mulvihill (33:33):
So God designed grandparents with a really
important role to play.
If you want to summarize what agrandparent's role is in
Scripture, I summarize it withthe word of discipleship.
You know, technically I'd saypassing on a heritage of faith
to the next generation, if youwant to use scripture language.
But most Christian grandparentsmy research found it was about

(33:58):
three out of four got closer toadopting the world's idea of
what the role of a grandparentis than the Bible, and so that
would be things like living anindependent life from children
and grandchildren.
Of course children andgrandchildren are loved and very

(34:22):
important to grandparents, butthe way in which lives live, the
number of times theintersection happens there, is
limited.
A lot of Christian grandparentsthink.
You know I don't want to be aburden, I don't want to overstep
my bounds.
When the interactions happenthey can be really positive and
worthwhile.
But essentially the culture welive in says that grandparents

(34:46):
are to live basically separatelives from children and
grandchildren and that of coursemakes it really hard for a
Christian grandparent to haveany kind of significant
influence, godly influence, inthe life of grandchildren when
you're living at a kind of adistant relationship.
The second one is this idea ofto spoil your grandkids, to fill

(35:13):
them up with sugar, send themhome where the real work of
spiritual formation is done.
You guys have heard that, I'msure all over the place, and
Christian grandparents are smartenough to know.
Ok, this isn't.
You know, I'm not going tofully make this my purpose, but
it becomes heavy in the sensethat grandparenting largely
becomes about fun and supportand friendship for a high

(35:38):
percentage of Christiangrandparents.
And so of course having funwith grandkids is not wrong.
It just becomes problematicwhen it is the end totality of a
grandparent's engagement withgrandchildren.
So it's very purpose-giving fora lot of Christian grandparents

(36:00):
to learn that the Bible has alot to say about God's role for
grandparents.
Maybe the most well, the mostsuccinct passages is Deuteronomy
4.9, which says teach thesethings to your children and your
children's children.

(36:20):
And there's all kinds ofterminology.
The Bible doesn't talk aboutgrandparenting using that term
very often.
It's used a couple times.
But it uses the terms, andthese would be great for you to
write down and go look up in aconcordance.
If you're a grandparent, do alittle Bible study on your own
Terms, like children's children,son's son, father's father,

(36:45):
fathers.
And when you start looking upterms like that and start to see
, wow, the Bible actually has apretty comprehensive, pretty
robust role for grandparents.
I've seen for a decade now thelight bulbs go on in
grandparents' eyes as they say,wow, this is really wonderful, I

(37:07):
have a role, I have purpose,and so my encouragement you know
, our culture really encouragesgrandparents that really not
grandparents per se, but kind ofthe retirement age, the, this
idea of living for self and thisdo nothing ism creed and I just
want to encourage grandparentsnot to buy into that.

(37:29):
Um, situation is unique and wecould talk about a million
different situations here, butjust from the 30,000-foot view,
god has given Christiangrandparents a role.
So if you're a Christiangrandparent, congratulations.
Your research shows you're thesecond most potential, most
important influence in a child'slife.

(37:51):
If you are a parent that haskids, that would be somebody
else's grandkids, your parents'grandkids.
God has given your parents arole with your kids.
Of course you're the primarysteward of those children, but
if they're godly grandparentsand I think it is then pleasing

(38:13):
to open the gate, the gatekeeper, and give the opportunity to
engage with grandchildren wecould share lots.
I could share lots of ideas,kind of on the practical side,
but you know that's just thequick answer to that there's
like 30 million Christiangrandparents in the United
States.

(38:33):
Just think about that for amoment.
If 30 million Christiangrandparents captured a biblical
vision to invest in theirgrandchildren, oh my, what an
impact could be had in thiscountry as Christian
grandparents begin to engage andthere are some.
You know Christian grandparentsare some of the most mature

(38:56):
Christians that are present inmost churches and are you're
needed today.
So Christian grandparentsmatter.
I hope that comes through loudand clear.
I hear you.
I hear you.

Scott Allen (39:09):
You're needed, dwight.
You've got a purpose.
Now, there you go.
That's great, josh, and I wouldjust you know, like you said,
there's a lot of practicalthings to be said for that, but
I know for me, with my parentsand other people who were ahead
of me, their prayers mattered alot, and that's something that.
I'm trying to really develop aheart for with my grandkids.

(39:29):
It's just kind of daily prayerfor them.
So I'm sure you would agree,josh, tell us a little bit about
Renew a Nation, the ministryyou're working for and some of
the—well, what is it doing?
You know it's work and some ofthe resources that are available
for people through Renew aNation.

Josh Mulvihill (39:48):
Yeah, we have three, four primary arms of our
ministry.
We have a Christian educationfocus.
So we take, we launch Christianschools.
So if you want to start aChristian school anywhere, we
have a whole team that helpswith that.
We're launching right now allover the country.

(40:10):
We revitalize Christian schools, so Christian schools that are
struggling in some way.
We have a three-year processthat we work with the leadership
, the board, top to bottom, andhelp a school get on the path to
being a distinctly Christianschool to teach God's truth in

(40:30):
all subject matters.

Scott Allen (40:31):
Let me just pause you there, josh, because I just
think that's so important.
I don't want to just kind ofrun over that.
I think I've seen this now.
My daughter, I have daughtersthat are in education.
They're teachers in Christianschools, and so we've had
experiences with that andthere's a problem there right
now because of the you know, theI don't know.

(40:55):
We at the DNA we call it asacred-secular divide.
A lot of churches that startschools, the school itself or
the whole process of educationkind of falls on the other side
of the sacred-secular line.
And so the idea is, when you doa school, you're basically

(41:15):
teaching reading, writing andarithmetic, with prayer at the
beginning, but there's not asense of any kind of—there's not
this.
How does the Bible or abiblical worldview shape the way
that you begin to think aboutteaching, the way you think
about the students and thesubject?
It's kind of just whatever thepublic school is teaching, plus
prayer at the beginning of it,and I've seen that as a huge

(41:37):
problem.
And so I just want tounderscore that, because I know
what you guys are doing is quitedifferent.
You're trying to say, no, we'vegot to set up distinctly
Christian schools.
That's got to run through everysubject.
So talk a little bit about that, josh.

Josh Mulvihill (41:52):
Yeah, absolutely A hundred percent Amen to what
you just said.
So a lot of teachers come outof the public school world,
christian teachers, and so don'tknow how to teach a subject
matter from a biblicalfoundation, and you know.
So.
What is science?
You know science is simplyunderstanding God's world, and

(42:16):
this you know.
This is why passages in theBible like Proverbs 1, 7 says,
you know, knowledge is onlypossible when it begins with the
fear of God.
And so we literally can'tunderstand God's world without
understanding God himself.
And so we're, you know we willhelp people think about and

(42:38):
teach science, history, math,literature, you know, all from
the foundation of God's wordintegrated into everything that
is taught, and that's verytransformational for a lot of
schools.
We find about 50 percent ofChristian schools are the kinds
of schools you just described,where chapel and Bible class and

(43:01):
prayer, a Christian environment, those things are kind of
separate from all the otherstuff.

Scott Allen (43:09):
That's the Christian part of it, right?

Josh Mulvihill (43:10):
yeah, yeah that's right, and they would
have the same curriculum as apublic school down the road, and
the same methodology.
You know too.
Same methodology, yeah.

Scott Allen (43:18):
And I think that if you really do start from the
basic premises of the Bible andbiblical worldview principles,
you end up with a differentmethodology.
You know not only a differentcurriculum, a different emphasis
, but a whole different approach, don't you Josh?
Yeah, you know not only adifferent curriculum, a
different emphasis, but a wholedifferent approach, don't you
Josh?

Josh Mulvihill (43:33):
Yeah, yes, that is absolutely correct, yep, and
we offer training for Christianteachers throughout the year,
different capacities, and youcan find all that stuff on the
website.
Our church and family isanother arm, so we train pastors
to—I find there's a lot oftheological famine in church

(43:57):
leaders, especially in thechildren and youth ministry
world.
A lot come up through theirchurch as parents that end up
leading their ministries andhave the greatest intentions in
their heart but haven't beentrained as a pastor or in
scripture theology and so doingthe best I can, but oftentimes

(44:30):
Barna would say only 13%.
A children's pastors conferenceevery year, and last year we
had about 500 people inattendance and Barna spoke at it
and he I was waiting to see ishe going to actually say this to
the 500 children's pastors thatwere there?
And yes, he did, and they gavehim a standing ovation.
But I thought, oh, that is,that is great.

(44:52):
You know I'll give you anexample theologically, what I
mean, most don't have greatclarity, what we even mean by
child discipleship or familyministry.
If I ask a group of pastors,raise your hand.
If you have ever, if you have atheology of the family.
Very few hands ever go up in aroom.

(45:14):
Most churches, most pastors,will have a theology of missions
or preaching, a theology ofchurch.
But you can't implementambiguity and there's a lot of
ambiguity with churches on whatdoes it mean to disciple a young
person?
Whose job is it?
How do you distinguish thedifference between what a parent

(45:36):
does and what a pastor does?
There's just a lot of gray formost church leaders.
So we have a family ministryacademy where it's a
nine-month-long program that wetrain pastors both theologically
and then practically.
How do you actually do this inthe church with children and
youth and families?
We're creating a children'sministry curriculum that is very

(46:00):
strong biblical worldview,apologetic, systematic theology
with a family focus, familyconnection, family worship
component to it.
Then we do a lot with thefamily discipleship arena just a
ton of resources that we'vewritten for parents and
grandparents.

(46:21):
You've gotten a taste of thegrandparent one.
We've got a lot in that arena.
And then we have a campManderley Christian Camp, right
outside of Chattanooga,tennessee, 1,200 acres and a big
camp.
We host lots of stuff there.
So if you're in the Tennesseearea and want to host a group, I

(46:44):
think there's 300 beds, it'salmost brand new.
It's gorgeous on a littlemountain.
Huh, lookout Mountain probablyright, it is right, outside of
Pikesville, close to Chattanooga.
Yeah, gotcha, all right.

Scott Allen (46:58):
So how can people find these resources, Josh?
What's the best way?

Josh Mulvihill (47:03):
RenewNationorg will take you to everything If
you are in the church world.
If you type inchurchrenewanationorg, that will
bring you to all kinds ofresources for pastors.

Scott Allen (47:16):
Well, I just highly encourage our listeners to do
that, to just avail yourself ofthis really important ministry
to both parents and also toChristian educators and to
pastors, just centering aroundthe discipleship of our children
.
This is just such a vital area.
So, Josh, thanks for all thatyou're doing with those great

(47:37):
resources.
Dwight and Luke, I wanted to goin a little bit different
direction, but before I do, Ididn't want to cut off any
thoughts you might have had inthis area here.

Luke Allen (47:47):
Yeah, I had one quick thought.
You were saying that mostchildren's pastors don't have a
theology of the family.
Give us a little anecdote ofhow you develop a theology of
the family, Josh.
I'm curious.

Josh Mulvihill (48:03):
So we actually, for the Family Ministry Academy,
one of the activities they needto do, going through that they
have to write a one-pagetheology and so they open up the
Bible and summarize in bulletpoints.
You know you could obviouslythere's entire books that have
been filled with this, so youcould do way more than a page

(48:23):
but we need the basics down, aframework, and so that's one way
that we have done that.
If you want an example of that,I have a book called Family
Ministry and I have an entirechapter in there.
That's kind of a quick flyoverof a theology of the family and

(48:43):
that is about as important as itgets when you are ministering
to children and youth.
If you don't have, if a pastordoesn't have clarity there,
there's what maybe you've heardthe term, you know jurisdictions
.
God created three jurisdictions.
He created the family, thechurch and the government.
And what ends up happening?

(49:04):
If we don't have clarity aroundwhat each individual does in
their jurisdictions, we getjurisdictional violations and
the church is guilty of this,unintended sometimes where they
end up moving into the familydiscipleship jurisdiction that
God has given to parents,because there's not clarity on

(49:25):
what the role of a pastor is,what the role of a parent is
what the role of a grandparentis.
They are very different,distinct.
They all work towards theevangelism and discipleship of
the next generation, but in avery different way and just like
with any organization, you know, we have different roles in an

(49:46):
organization and when you don'thave clarity with your job
description, all kinds of issuescan happen.
And this is essentially God'sjob description and we need
clarity on what that is.
And the same, you know, withjurisdictions, that could be a
whole separate conversation.
We talked about education.

(50:06):
There is no fourth jurisdiction.
We treat education as if it'sits own category, its own
jurisdiction that fits into oneof those three church, family or
government.
And right now public educationhas taken that jurisdiction.
You know, right now publiceducation has taken that
jurisdiction and we've largelygiven it to the government.

(50:30):
But you know scripturally therole of education.
God doesn't give that to thegovernment, he gives that
squarely with parents.
It doesn't mean that everyfamily needs to be homeschooling
, but it does mean that everyparent is ultimately accountable
and needs to understand thateven if their child is in a

(50:50):
traditional school setting, theyhave a role to play in being
very present and active andengaged because ultimately, they
are the educator at the end ofthe day and they're just getting
help.
So, anyways, the jurisdictionconversation becomes real
critical in a theology of thefamily to know what does that
actually look like from a jobdescription standpoint

(51:13):
scripturally, and we needclarity there.

Scott Allen (51:17):
Well, it's such an important word on those kind of
lines of you know, these areGod-given kind of silos of
authority, if you will, you know, and I just think it's so
important for Christians tounderstand that, and especially
for Christian parents, becausewhen you don't like you said,
others will come right in andkind of take over your
jurisdiction gladly and you knowwe've seen that, like you say,

(51:41):
unintentionally, even with thechurch, you know you just send
your kids to us, we'll discipleyour kids and parents are like,
good, I don't want to do that.
Well, you know that's wrong.
The church should be saying tothe parent that's your primary
job.
Let me equip you on how you cando that.
Not that we can't help orsupport it, but this is your
primary job.
And discipleship and educationbiblically go hand in hand.

(52:02):
They're really not hardly thatdifferent.
And so, like you say, thegovernment comes in.
If we don't have a vision forwhat it means to be a biblical
family, the government comesright in and says we'll take
care of that for you and youknow parents again very glad to
say great, I can't wait to getmy parents off to the school or
my kids off to the school.
So I think that's such a vitalvital, you know thing that you

(52:26):
just said, josh.
I just really want tounderscore it.
Let me talk a little bit about,as we kind of I know we're
running out of time, josh, butyou know you've been one of the
biggest fans of why socialjustice is not biblical justice.
Tell us a little bit about that.
What drew you to the book andcontinues to kind of draw you to
use that book.
Where have you found that mosthelpful?

(52:48):
What was it?
Was it just a need that you sawout there that, gosh, a lot of
Christians are going for thiskind of woke social justice
agenda, or what was it?

Josh Mulvihill (52:57):
Yeah, I think a lot of Christians don't know
what justice means scripturally.
And so, because that's the case, you know, we hear justice
everywhere environmental justice, reproductive justice, social
justice and you wonder, is there, is you know, are these
legitimate?
Well, when you get a moniker infront of a word, you could

(53:19):
pretty much say that's usuallyproblematic.
Your red flag should go up andyour book why Social Justice Is
Not Biblical Justice did aphenomenal job of doing two
things.
One was laying out the problemand clearly stating the

(53:41):
difference between biblicaljustice and kind of what our
world is saying justice is, andI really appreciate that.
The second thing that I reallyappreciate it was there's
actually practicality at thevery end of your book.
There is, you know, a lot oftimes it's just here's the
different, you know, it's justkind of an intellectual
component.

(54:01):
There was literally a.
There was a practicalapplication out of that.
You know the.
Now what side of things isanswered really well there, kind
of how do we as Christians?
The Bible is clear that justiceis a good thing and we need to
be pursuing justice.
So what does that actually meanand look like to do in a godly,
biblical way?

(54:21):
We want to do that.
We want to be about.
That should be a big marker forus as Christians.
But we want to make sure we'redoing that scripturally, and so
your book has done thatphenomenally well.
We you know, as I said earlier,I encourage everybody to read
that book.
It's just, it's helpful.
It will be one of those whereyou see clearly in a way you did

(54:44):
not, and it will help you tohear the erroneous messages.
They're all around us all thetime, still to this day, and we
tend to absorb those as we kindof live in that environment.

Scott Allen (54:57):
One question as you look at what's happening right
now, especially in the UnitedStates, in North America, with
churches, what gives you hope?
Do you see some things changing?
Do you see pages getting turnedhere a little bit?

Josh Mulvihill (55:11):
Well, we know that the gates of hell will
never defeat Christ, so I havegreat hope.
We know how the story ends inRevelation and it's a wonderful
ending, you know?
I see, I think the first timein a very long time, statistics
came out about um the decline ofChristianity.

(55:31):
The nuns didn't grow.

Scott Allen (55:33):
Yes, I saw that in a recent Pew study.

Josh Mulvihill (55:35):
Yeah, that was.
That was shocking andsurprising.
That's.
That's very hope-filled.
I was very surprised in thislast election cycle how many
young men, seems like, decidedthey were not going to pursue a
woke agenda and that wassurprising to me.

(55:58):
That's very hope-filled.
As men go, often families andchurches and organizations go,
and you know that's not centeredon Christ necessarily but it
does suggest that a lot of thedirection that our culture was
headed, you know people arefinally saying I've had enough

(56:19):
of that.
It doesn't align with realityand the whole transgender stuff,
you know, looked like it wasgoing one direction that was not
good long-term.
And now our culture has kind oflooks like God's truth is a
secular worldview always failsand I think we're seeing people

(56:41):
tasted it and realize thisdoesn't work in real life some
of it, and I'm grateful for that.
So a lot gives me excitement.
I, you know we've got five kidsand some in the kind of the
young adult years and so youknow my kids have a lot of
friends in that age group.
There's a lot of really solidyoung Christian people coming up

(57:03):
.
That gives me great hope andI'm really excited to see how
God would use them.
And you know, sometimes it'snot what we do as individuals.
It's who we raise that makesthe greatest impact in this
world for Christ, and so I'm soexcited to see our kids and
grandkids, what God does throughthem, and I hope it's way more

(57:25):
than anything that all of us didtogether.
Wouldn't that be great?

Scott Allen (57:29):
No kidding, dwight Luke.
Any final questions or thoughtsas we wrap up today?

Dwight Vogt (57:34):
No, it's been really interesting.
Thank you, Josh.

Luke Allen (57:36):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm going to save that quote you
just said, josh, I love thatit's not so much about what we
do, but about the children weraise in the next generation.
You said it better than I did,but I'm saving that.
I love that.
That's such a great vision formy jurisdiction as a father and
how can I be as honoring to Godin this role as I possibly can.

(57:58):
So it's exciting.

Scott Allen (58:00):
Josh, I read many years ago I read a biography of
Jonathan Edwards.
You know the famous Puritanpreacher from Massachusetts one.
You know the famous Puritanpreacher from Massachusetts.
You know he was a contemporaryof our founding fathers, some
consider him the greatesttheologian America's produced.
And it referenced a study thatwas done not long ago on the

(58:21):
descendants of Jonathan Edwardsand his wife Sarah.
At that point you know now manyhundreds of descendants.
You know they can trace theirline back to him and it looked
at what you know what they didand it was kind of phenomenal.
How many were missionaries ordoctors.
One was the vice president ofthe United States.

(58:41):
I mean, so many were justreally accomplished and the
influence that they had was kindof phenomenal and it did for me
anyways.
It gave me a huge vision, likefor thinking generationally and
the impact that you can havegenerationally.
But it starts with, you know,your own children, your
grandchildren, and thinkingthrough the ripple, that ripple

(59:03):
that God intends, by the way.
You know that goes on.

Josh Mulvihill (59:11):
And so that's what I hear you saying yeah,
amen, that's a great study.
I love that one.
You've seen that one and veryinspiring.

Scott Allen (59:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's very inspiring.
Yeah, yeah, I think the guythat did that did another study
of somebody that was acontemporary that ended up in
prison, a contemporary ofJonathan Edwards and his
descendants over many years.
It was kind of the oppositedirection and it was a little
bit sobering.
So, anyways, well, josh, thankyou so much for being with us
today and just for yourpartnership and ministry, your
encouragement and just.

(59:35):
We love Renew a Nation and justyour vision and the resources
you guys are putting out forparents, grandparents, schools.
I just really want to encourageall of our listeners to avail
themselves of all of thewonderful things that the
ministry is putting out.
Josh, you were putting out.
There's great wisdom here, realpractical help.
So give us that website onemore time, josh.

Josh Mulvihill (59:59):
Yeah, it's renewanationorg.
All one word.

Scott Allen (01:00:03):
And let's do it.
Let's renew a nation, let'srenew all the nations.
How about that?
So, in the name of Jesus, josh,thanks for being with us today.
Dwight Luke, great to be withyou.
Again and again, once again, toall of our listeners, thank you
for tuning in to anotherepisode of Ideas have
Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.

Luke Allen (01:00:28):
Thank you for listening to this episode with
Dr Josh Mulville, as always.
To find all of the resourcesthat we mentioned in the
discussion and more, just headover to the episode page, which
you'll see linked in the shownotes.
If this is your first timelistening to this show, then
welcome.
We're so glad that you are here.
Ideas have Consequences, as youheard, is brought to you by the
Disciple Nations Alliance, whichis a ministry that has worked

(01:00:49):
around the world for the last 28plus years, training over a
million Christians in over 100nations in the transformative
power of a biblical worldview.
Our vision here at the DiscipleNations Alliance is to see
blessed, thriving nations withkey biblical principles and
definitions deeply embedded intheir foundations, shaping their
institutions, their policiesand their practices across every

(01:01:13):
area of society.
And how we are doing this is byequipping followers of Jesus
with a biblical worldview,empowering them to build these
thriving cultures, communitiesand nations.
If you'd like to learn moreabout our ministry, you can find
us on Instagram, facebook andYouTube, or on our website,
which is disciplenationsorg.
That's it for today, guys.

(01:01:34):
Thank you so much for listeningto this discussion and we hope
that you'll be able to join usagain next week here on.
Ideas have Consequences.
You.