Postmodernism Didn’t Work. What’s Next? | Dr. Bob Osburn

A secular worldview shaped the West since the Enlightenment–but it’s beginning to unravel. Dr. Bob Osburn talks with us about why postmodern ideologies are collapsing—and how Christianity offers a compelling return to reality. This is a timely conversation for anyone wondering how the church can rise to meet our cultural moment with clarity, courage, and hope.

Main Topics:

1. The Decline of Secular Ideologies – Why movements like DEI and “wokeism” are fading and what it reveals about our cultural foundations
2. Christianity as a Return to Reality – How biblical truth offers a framework for human dignity, freedom, and flourishing
3. The Church’s Opportunity – Why now is the time for Christians to engage culture with a holistic, Scripture-rooted worldview

• View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
• Learn More about the 10 Words to Heal Our Broken World Bible Study

Episode Transcript

Dr. Bob Osburn (00:03):
We're dealing with fantasy land, and so what
it seems to me is that Christ iscalling us to invite people
into a genuine encounter withreality, and this return to
reality is the, I think going tobecome one of the great appeals
of the gospel.

(00:23):
Is the, I think, going tobecome one of the great appeals
of the gospel, and the otherappeal of the gospel that I
think goes right along with itis the restoration of our
humanity.

Luke Allen (00:35):
Yes, Hi friends, welcome to.
Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world, to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect

(00:58):
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.

Scott Allen (01:21):
Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas
have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen and I'm joinedtoday by DNA co-founder Darrell
Miller and Luke Allen, my sonand the producer of the podcast,
and we are thrilled to havewith us today another I would

(01:42):
say co-founder of the DNA,really in many ways Dr Bob
Osborne, a longtime friend and aperson of great wisdom that we
respect so much.
We haven't had you on for awhile, bob, so we thought, gosh,
there's so much going on in theworld, in the culture.
We wanted to just sit aroundthe water cooler with you for a
little while and catch up andhear what you're thinking about,
kind of what's passing and whatit means for the church and our

(02:06):
ministry, the mission thatGod's called us to.
So thanks for joining us, bob.

Dr. Bob Osburn (02:10):
It's my pleasure .
I'm delighted to be here.

Scott Allen (02:12):
Yeah, that's great, and for many of you you may not
, since it's been a while, andI'm sorry about that, bob, love
to have you on more, but let meintroduce you briefly and feel
free to fill in any gaps thatyou would like.
Dr Osborne has a PhD ininternational education from the
University of Minnesota and healso earned his Master of

(02:38):
Theology from Dallas TheologicalSeminary, and that was after
earning his bachelor's degreefrom the University of Michigan.
He has spent most of his career35 years or more I'm sure it's
more than that serving ininternational students, with
international students andbasically teaching very similar

(02:59):
kinds of messages that we teacharound the world, with the DNA,
but focusing primarily oninternational students in the
United States, a highlystrategic group and with the
idea that these young peoplecoming here to the United States
to our elite universities, manyof them Christians but without
a biblical worldview, the ideais to train and equip them with

(03:22):
a biblical worldview so thatthey can go back and provide
godly leadership in their homecountries to disciple their
nations.
Bob, you have since passed thebaton, and I know, to Dr Kevin
Clooney, who is leading theWilberforce Institute that you
founded.
You want to catch us up alittle bit on what's been

(03:45):
happening of late, since thattime, bob.

Dr. Bob Osburn (03:47):
Certainly yes, it was a delight to have Dr
Kevin Cooney, who was himselffor many years active in
Christian academic circles andis someone who's had a very
large and significant globaltravel pattern, as well as
interaction with students andother cultures, and taught for

(04:11):
many years at a Japaneseuniversity as well.
So what we've been reallytrying to do since he joined us
in 2020 as our new president,we're trying to expand the
opportunities for more studentsto engage with us.
So now we have, for the firsttime whereas you have, many

(04:33):
Latins involved with DNA.
Really for the first time,we're getting more and more
Latins who are engaging with us.
But we're also getting peoplefrom a completely opposite end
of the spectrum, for example, inPapua province, which is the
extreme eastern part of thecountry, of Indonesia, which is,

(04:56):
as you know, a vast archipelago.
But as we've not only expandedto many more students, most of
whom are grad students here andat other universities around the
world, we're also doubling downon my key course, which is

(05:17):
comparative worldviews.
In fact, I'm just now teachingit through an affiliated and
friendly university to us, and Ihave students again from around
the world.
And on top of that, in the lastfew years, we've begun to zero
in as well on the topic ofcorruption, and I know that

(05:42):
there's a lot that could be saidabout corruption in the
American context, no questionabout that but we're really
thinking about corruption as ourstudents and the scholars we
deal with have to face it on adaily basis in countries all
around the world, where you havenational leaders, for example,

(06:04):
who are absolutely committed toone objective, which is to
enrich themselves as much aspossible and as fast as possible
.
So we're teaching a Christiancourse on anti-corruption, and
that's been very, very wellreceived, again around the world
, and now it's being taught, forexample, in Malawi through an

(06:26):
extension that we have there.
So God is opening up new doors,new opportunities to bring the
kind of DNA message in ourparticular branding to people
around the world.

Scott Allen (06:42):
That's awesome, bob , that's great.
So you're still activelyinvolved, then it sounds like
with Wilberforce I am half-time,absolutely Okay, well wonderful
and again for those of you whodon't know the history, at the
very beginning of the DNA, bobwas present, along with Bob
Moffitt and Vishal Mangalwadi.

(07:05):
This is going back more than 30years now and really the set of
ideas and the teachings that wehave been faithfully kind of
sharing with churches all overthe world, helping them to
understand their faith, not justas a message of spiritual
salvation but as anall-encompassing worldview, and
that their mission is really tobring that entire worldview to
replace whatever the falseideologies and worldviews of the

(07:27):
nations are.
That's what it means todisciple nations.
Bob was there present helpingto shape that and has been an
advocate in so many ways.
And Bob, for me, most recently,you were just an inspiration
and an encourager on the writingof why Social Justice is Not
Biblical Justice, which was, youknow, for me personally, a

(07:49):
really important book.
I know that a lot of the peoplethat have read it have been
helped by it, so I want to thankyou again for that too.

Dr. Bob Osburn (07:56):
Well, that was just such a timely book, and I
don't think any of us realizedhow incredibly timely it would
be until what happened righthere in my home city of
Minneapolis in 2020, which, youknow, rocked the entire world.
Yeah, no, that's for sure.

Scott Allen (08:16):
Well, part of what we want to talk with you about
today, bob, is just, it seems tome there's just real rocking
that's happening, especially inWestern culture.
I do think the social justicemovement, the woke ideology, is
wrapped up in it, kind of thefallout from that.
I just want to put forward afew of my observations and then

(08:39):
for both you and Darrell andLuke I just love your reactions
and just have a discussion whatare you seeing?
And I'd really like it to kindof come down to towards the end.
What does this mean?
What does it mean for thechurch and for us as the DNA in
terms of how we work to reallyhelp and support and equip the
church to be what she needs tobe at this moment?

(09:00):
So let me just lay out a fewobservations and I'll say I'm
going to, and I'll say I'm goingto speak very broadly,
historically, I'm going to goall the way back to the
Enlightenment.
So I'm going to put forwardsome thoughts quite broadly,
because I do feel like we'rekind of at a bookend.
This is my thesis anyways.

(09:21):
It seems like we're at abookend.
Something significant happenedat the Enlightenment where, with
the rise of science, modernscience, which was birthed out
of a biblical worldview.
But very quickly there's thishuman pride that kind of arose
right in Europe and with thegreat thinkers and philosophers
that said, hey, through humanreason and science we can know
everything.
We no longer need to appeal toGod or to the Bible.

(09:45):
That was seen as superstitious,something that people believed
in during the Dark Ages, andthat basic set of ideas that's
been so influential in shapingthe West over the last, you know
, hundred years.
Several hundred years reallygot its start there.
Several hundred years reallygot its start there.

(10:07):
And I've been reading a book byOs Guinness called this
Civilizational Moment.
It's a terrific book.
I recommend everyone read it.
He's basically saying the samething we're at a civilizational
moment.
What he means by that is thatat the Enlightenment that the
West which was birthed and allthe good fruit that we've
enjoyed in the West in terms ofdemocracy and freedom and
economic prosperity and respectfor human dignity so many things

(10:30):
you could go on and on theywere uniquely birthed out of a
biblical, judeo-christian orbiblical worldview, but that
soil, if you will, was cut offduring the Enlightenment.
In other words, we purposelyturned away from God.
We made science and reason,human reason, a God and we, in

(10:51):
Os Guinness's word, we became acut flower.
So the soil that gave us birth,we cut ourselves off from it.
But, as Os Guinness correctlysays, flowers, when they're cut,
they don't, you know,immediately wither and you know
and turn into dust and blow away.
They still look beautiful forsome time because the nutrients

(11:12):
remain themselves in the flower.
And I feel like he's saying theWest, for these several hundred
years in some ways, has beenthat cut flower.
It's slowly dying, it's slowlywilting and I mean I think in
some ways that's probably anunderstatement.
When you look at the fruits ofthe in the 20th century, for
example just the bloodiestcentury, right, you know, the

(11:34):
rise of Nazism, the rise ofcommunism, I mean these are not
small things at all.
But bringing it to the presentmoment, I think what Oz is
saying is that we're completelycut now.
In other words, you've got ageneration that there's no
nutrients left, there's nothingfrom the Bible that's passing
through to this flower.

(11:55):
It's now completely dead andwhat's come up in its place has
been this woke worldview, thisneo-marxist, postmodern
worldview.
There is no truth, there's noGod, there's no truth.
You can be anything you want tobe.
That's the transgender idea.
There's no respect for humanindividuality, human dignity.

(12:16):
We're shaped by our groups.
There's no respect for you asan individual.
Everything I need to know aboutyou I can tell by your skin
color, your sex.
There's no place for freedom,right?
There is no freedom in thisworldview, and that's why we're
seeing the loss of all sorts offreedoms freedom of speech, the

(12:36):
censorship, industrial complex,the rise of these tyrannies,
these people that are trying tokind of manipulate power and get
control over things.
The other thing that strikes meis that, when you look at the
woke worldview that I wroteabout and why social justice is
not biblical justice, there's nogratitude, there's no
thankfulness, there's no love,there's no forgiveness.

(12:58):
Everything that makes humanrelationships possible or human
flourishing possible is gone,and that is, to me, the cut
flower, like it's cut off.
These people are operating froma worldview that has nothing
from the scriptures coming intoit and consequently, it's
demonic, it's destructive and itcan't last.

(13:21):
It'll literally destroy us, andI think that's what I was
writing about.
That's what I was seeing.
Darrell, you and I wrote thebook the Toxic New Religion.
We were saying, hey, there's atoxic new religion that's
emerging now that has no,there's nothing in it that's

(13:41):
coming from the Bible or thebiblical worldview and it's
highly destructive.
So we wrote about that 2020,you know, at the height of the
woke revolution.
But then there's been such aninteresting kind of period of
time since then.
In reaction to it, there's beena major, major pushback against

(14:03):
it in a way that I didn't fullyexpect.
And just one indicator of thatlast week I just read an article
well, two articles I mean.
I could go on and on, but theseI thought were indicative of a
broader thing.
Number one was in Washington DC.
At the height of the wokerevolution, the city council

(14:25):
painted a block-long mural ofBlack Lives Matter on the city
street.
That was taken down last weekand it's just indicative of that
organization that was veryinvolved in spreading the
movement has also beencompletely discredited.
So, again, this is just onesimple illustration of something

(14:47):
that's going on that's muchbigger.
The other thing I'll just puton the table just as an anecdote
is.
I read this in USA Today.
It was a woman named JenniferSay.
She really inspired me.
She is a native of SanFrancisco, a Democrat, had
always voted Democratic, votedfor Trump in the last election,

(15:08):
but she told her story about how, during COVID, oh, she was the
global brand manager for Levi's.
So she had this very prominentposition in a major corporation
there in San Francisco, levi's,which we all know.
She was the global brandmanager very progressive, very
liberal, just like you wouldexpect somebody in San Francisco

(15:29):
to be.
But during COVID she startedspeaking out because she saw the
damage that the lockdowns weredoing to children and that put
her at odds with city governmentand also her own business,
levi's.
And, long story short, she wasfired for that.
Taking that stand the next thingthat she found, now that she

(15:50):
was on the outside, she startedspeaking out on other things and
the next thing for her was thiswhole there is no distinction
between men and women andespecially men and women's
sports.
That, to her, was anabomination and she just wasn't
going to allow that to continue.
So she began quite forcefullyspeaking out.

(16:12):
That put her at odds witheveryone that she knew.
She literally lost all of herbase of support.
But in the interview in the USAToday article and she never
comes across here as a Christianat all I don't know if she is,
I don't believe she is.
She may be, but that'scertainly not her background she
speaks up.
The interviewer asks why areyou doing this?

(16:34):
Why are you paying such a highpersonal cost to speak out
against these things, especiallythe you know, the women and men
issue now in the culture?
And she said something thatjust really touched me.
She said because it's true andwe have to speak for the truth.

(16:57):
Anyways, it was something that Ithought that's what Christians
should be saying and doing, butvery often we don't.
That's a whole other story, andwhat you've seen is you've seen
this whole slew of people likeJennifer, say you could think of
Jordan Peterson or so manyothers that really picked up the
ball and said we can't losefreedom, we can't lose love, we

(17:20):
can't lose these, basicallythese fruits of the Christian
worldview.
These aren't Christians, butthey see the loss of the fruit,
the loss of truth, the loss ofwhat it means to be a male or
female you name it and they'recourageous enough to speak out
and they're kind of leading thepushback.
I wish I could say it wasevangelical church.
It's not.
I mean not to say that wehaven't had any role to play,

(17:43):
but it's been small.
These have been the leaders, inmy view, bob.
So I've laid out a lot of stuff.
I put several theses on thetable.
I would love your reactions tojust anything I've said or where
you see us at now, what's goingon, and then again we can move
towards.
How do we?
What does this mean for thechurch?
And, darrell, I want to bringyou in too.

(18:04):
We've been talking, but it'sbeen a while.
So let's start the discussion,bob or Darrell, either one.

Dr. Bob Osburn (18:21):
Yeah, I have to say that where you're headed is
exactly where I'm thinking rightnow.
But the question and youalluded to this in your very
final comments just a second agois the question where is the
evangelical church?
I mean, I know there are somethat are talking about this, but
it seems to me and I made thisassertion, uh, in the last just

(18:44):
over a year, at a recent libraryconference where I was speaking
, and I said that and I reallybelieve this even more so today
that what Christianity shouldbecome known for is a return to
reality.
You got to leave, we'reinviting you to leave, the

(19:09):
fantasy lands that onlyimpoverish you, the fantasy
lands of ideology, the fantasylands of pretending that you can
change the biological nature ofwho you are and somehow change
the essence of who you are.
And you, we're dealing withfantasy land, and so what it

(19:35):
seems to me is that christ iscalling us to invite people into
a genuine encounter withreality, and this return to
reality is, I think, going tobecome one of the great appeals
of the gospel, and the otherappeal of the gospel that I

(19:56):
think goes right along with itis the restoration of our
humanity.
Yes, now, daryl, you rememberfrom your days back at LaBrie,
well over 60 years ago that youwere or at least 50 years ago, I
should say 55, maybe 60, thatthat thing was beginning to

(20:19):
really emerge in Schaeffer'sapologetic, but it seems to me
that he was only pointing in thedirection of where we need to
really focus and where we needto be very intense, and that is
we welcome you to reality and wewelcome you to a rediscovery of

(20:41):
what it means to be human.
And so, welcome you to arediscovery of what it means to
be human.
And so I expect that in myremaining years that I will put
my energies, especially withWesterners, but also with the
foreign students that I engage,to increasingly making this
point that the gospel brings usback to reality, and it brings

(21:05):
us back to what it means to behuman.
And, of course, to get there, itmeans we have to acknowledge
that there's a god who's made usin his image, uh, and a god
against whom we have rebelled,but a god who also gave and made
possible the entirety ofredemption, and that redemption

(21:31):
includes not only the spiritualdimension of us, but it actually
means the redemption of theentirety of our humanity, and it
also means the redemption ofwhat we would call epistemic
faculties, and what I mean whenI use that big term is simply
the ability to know reality asit really is.

(21:54):
So the gospel redeems ourcapacities to know, our
capacities to know and, ifanything, that question of
epistemology that is, how weknow what we know is a very big
issue today, along with all theother implicit issues that I've,

(22:16):
and you've, referred to.
So I think I'll start with that, because it seems to me that's
part of the core of the gospel.

Dwight Vogt (22:24):
Let me pick up right there, bob.
I haven't read the article youwere referring to, scott, by
this woman, but there's so manypeople who are non-Christians,
who are are non-Christians, whoare rebelling against woke,

(22:52):
rebelling against the idiocy offantasy land, and these tend to
be the old liberals.
They still believe there'struth, they still believe
there's reality, and so they'reraising their voices.
They're not necessarilychristians most of them are not
christians but they're putting,they're connecting the dots that

(23:14):
where did western civilizationcome from?
It came from the bible.
And they are calling themselvescultural Christians and they
are recognizing the incredibleimportance of the scripture to

(23:34):
create Western civilization.
And as they see Westerncivilization dying the cut
flower is now dying they'reappalled and they say we don't
want to go there we can't livein that world.
What created the world that welove and we want to live in?

(23:58):
Oh, it was the bible andthey've never, I think there, if
I could just say we've neverseen that.

Scott Allen (24:04):
They just again that's the cut flower.
They just took it for granted.
The flower was always there.

Dwight Vogt (24:08):
That's right, They've never seen it.
But the problem is the churchdoesn't see it.
That's the problem we have.
This is our legacy.

Scott Allen (24:18):
Yes.

Dwight Vogt (24:19):
And we are not articulating the legacy.
And this is what you weresaying a few minutes ago, Bob.
We are the ones who should bedoing this.
Well, why is the church notdoing it?
Because, they're in a fantasyland.

Dr. Bob Osburn (24:36):
And it's the kind of super spirituality that
she was reacting against.
It's a super spirituality.

Dwight Vogt (24:44):
It's the sacred secular dichotomy.
What is true, what's important,is the spiritual realm.
We're all going to die and goto heaven.
If we're christians, we don'tneed to be concerned about this
world.
That's a fantasy land becauseit's not dealing with reality,

(25:06):
and that's why the church, we,should be leading this movement,
but we're not, because we areliving in a fantasy land as well
.

Luke Allen (25:19):
If you're a Christian who wants to make a
difference in healing yourculture, then this book is for
you.
It's called 10 Words to HealOur Broken World Restoring the
True Meaning of Our MostImportant Words by my dad, scott
Allen.
And if you're wondering whywords, let me explain.
There's a strategy that hasbeen used throughout history by
those who want to changecultures, and it goes as follows

(25:41):
To change a culture, you beginby changing the meanings of its
words.
In other words, step one inculture change is to change the
meanings or definitions of thatculture's most important words
to mean something that alignswith your narrative.
For example, the word marriageused to mean a God-ordained
union between one man and onewoman, but today it has been

(26:03):
changed to mean a legal unionbetween two people.
So, as you can see, someone haschanged this word to mean
something completely differentfrom its biblical definition.
And marriage is not the onlyword that has been changed to
shift our culture away from God.
In this book, 10 Words to HealOur Broken World, you'll learn
the true biblical definitions of10 of our culture's most

(26:25):
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You'll learn how to defend them, and not only that, but how to
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This is possibly the mostimportant step that you can take
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Again, the book is called 10Words to Heal Our Broken World,
and if you'd like to learn moreabout it, you can just head over
to 10wordsbookorg to10wordsbookorg.

Scott Allen (26:52):
Can I jump in on that Because I'd like to
continue with?
I want to react to what yousaid and continue with my thesis
because I think this is reallya potentially exciting moment
for the church.
But I just want to kind ofunderscore.
When I looked at the church theevangelical church, let's say,
in the wake of the wokerevolution, the first thing that

(27:12):
I saw was I saw a lot of ourleaders, let's say our elites,
talking about the Tim Kellerspeople that I respect, groups
that I respect, intervarsity Ihave great respect for even
Campus Crusader crew, ourpublishing companies
Christianity Today, you name itand what I was seeing largely

(27:33):
was a capitulation and theywouldn't have said that, but
they would have said somethinglike we don't want to be
political, you know, we don'twant to rock the boat, we want
to kind of be nice, winsome,whatever it is.
You know, we want to have anopenness to the gospel and
whatever it is, you know, wewant to have an openness to the
gospel and you know.
So there was that wholeapproach.

(27:54):
They weren't able to see theevil and the damage of the
ideology, so they kind ofaccommodated it and brought it
in and had you know, black LivesMatter speak from the platform
at InterVarsity.
You know you name it.
They did all these things.
So I saw that.
On one side, an accommodation,Of course.
If you're accommodating thiswith some kind of a Christian

(28:16):
veneer over the top, what goodare you?
It's kind of like I don't know,this is probably too dramatic,
but when the Nazis were gainingmomentum in the 1930s, you had a
lot of churches put theswastika up, similar right on
the pulpit, right, they didn'twant to rock the boat, get along

(28:38):
, keep an openness for thegospel, whatever their reasoning
was.
So I saw that that was reallydiscouraging.
I also saw a lot of the peoplein the pews rejecting that, by
the way.
They said well, you know, andMegham Basham just wrote a book
that really calls out a lot ofthe people in the pews rejecting
that, by the way.
They said well, you know, andMegham Basham just wrote a book
that really calls out a lot ofour leaders saying you guys have
really sold us out.
Instead of really shepherdingthe flock and kind of guarding

(29:00):
us against these wolves, thesereally dangerous wolves, you've
just kind of accommodatedyourself to the wolves.
I think it's an important book.
On the other side, I see theevangelical church still stuck
in a sacred-secular divide.
So it doesn't think in terms ofhow has the Bible given rise to
a culture?
How has it given rise tofreedom?

(29:21):
How has it given rise to truth?
Bob, you know your point,reality, a true sense of, you
know, objective truth.
How has it given rise to humandignity?
They don't think in those termsbecause what the message is and
the mission of the church is isjust spiritual salvation.
We just got to preach thegospel.
Preach the gospel, and that,you know, what people need is

(29:44):
they need to know the gospel ofsalvation.
I keep hearing that over andover again.
And yet people like Jennifersay just to give her as an
example, that's not wherethey're at.
They're not saying what must Ido to be saved?
They're saying, hey, men arenot women and men should not be
in women's sports.
That's a lie and I'm going tospeak out for that.
And then she's going in wheredid that truth come from?

(30:06):
Oh, that kind of came from theBible, maybe.
I don't know if she's there yet, but many are.
Jordan Peterson is there.
Like, those truths came fromthe Bible.
And yet there's this bigdisconnect between the people
that are rediscovering thesetruths that came from the Bible

(30:31):
and built the West, andwe're-truth culture has infected
the church.

Dwight Vogt (30:38):
We live in a post-moral culture and that
post-moral culture has infectedthe church.
And it's that old thing thatI've been saying for years if
the church doesn't disciple theculture, the the, the culture
will disciple the church.
The church today has beendiscipled by a post-truth,

(31:02):
post-moral fantasy land andthey're operating from that.
And that's why these culturalChristians, they are recognizing
oh hey, there's a relationshipbetween the things that we value
and the scriptures, but thechurch is still blind to that.

(31:28):
Schaeffer used to say if youwant to know where the church is
going to be in seven years,look at where the world is today
.
And the church is behind, wherethese cultural Christians are
saying we need to be, christiansare saying we need to be.

(31:51):
And how do you shake the churchand say hey, we should be
leading the parade, notfollowing the parade.

Dr. Bob Osburn (32:07):
You know when I think about it, darrell, I'm
100% with you.
And then I try to put myself inthe shoes of pastors.
I think one of the responses ofmany pastors will be look, I'm
overwhelmed with a pestilence,struggles that I'm facing, with
families breaking apart,marriages exploding, I have
people with serious addictions,I'm dealing with a church board.

(32:28):
That's on my throat all thetime and I actually, at that
level, I have a lot of sympathy,a lot of sympathy for where
pastors are at.
But I think this also brings usback to some of the formative
influences.
Our seminaries, for example, itseems to to me have not been

(32:51):
clear enough, not nearly clearenough, about the issue of
worldview.
so we come back to our foundingpropositions, that it's the, the
fundamental assumptions thatyou bring into life that will
result in the kind of eitherdisabling or enabling cultural

(33:11):
fruit that will either set youon a path that toward reality
and toward the restoration ofyour humanity, or will set you
on a different path that will befrustrating.
So I acknowledge that ourpastors are struggling with very
real pastoral shepherding needs, many of which, by the way,

(33:33):
many of those problems they'redealing with are a direct result
Exactly when the culture's gone.
Yes.

Dwight Vogt (33:41):
And a direct result of we're not functioning from a
biblical worldview and pastorsare not teaching sound biblical
theology and principles.
A few years ago, seminariesmoved from theology being the
core of what they did topsychology and counseling being

(34:04):
the core of what they did, totry and prepare pastors to deal
with all this brokenness.
Well, why don't we stop thebrokenness at the heart?
We used to have a guy namedRufi Macaba, a doctor who worked
for Food for the Hungry, and heused this illustration.

(34:27):
He said he was working in ahospital and there was all this
water coming out from theutility room and the doctors
went and got mops and we'rewe're getting the water off the
hallway.
And the janitor came up, openedthe utility door and turned the

(34:49):
water off.
And that is so where we aretoday, the pastors.
They're overwhelmed becausethey're mopping the floor and
what they need to do is go backand turn the water off.
That's where they need to be.
And how do we get?

(35:09):
How do we Schaefer?
That's what they need to be andhow you know?
How do we get, how do weSchaefer?
That's what he did for me those50 years ago.
Uh, I was an evangelicalChristian who'd been to seminary
, dropped out because I didn'tsee the relevancy of what I was
learning there.
And I went to LaBrie and pow,yeah, it's worldview.

(35:34):
And I'd never heard the wordworldview before.
I'd been a Christian for yearsand I'd been to seminary Never
heard it.
And it's the key.

Dr. Bob Osburn (35:45):
Absolutely.
I couldn't agree more, darrell,with you.
So we have a mighty challenge.
At the same time, I do see realevidence and I think you would
agree and you alluded, I think,to this, scott that because we
are at this great civilizationalmoment, as Osginus calls it,

(36:14):
moment as Osginus calls it thereare many Christians who are
simply beginning to wake up tothe messages, like ours, and are
saying I will place my standthere.
And so we thank places like theColson Center and scholars like
Nancy Peercy and cetera forwhat they've been doing to try
to help us.
But we're really lacking thismovement from the larger

(36:37):
evangelical church at a momentwhen we could be really
capturing the willingness andthe openness that's obviously
there.
Tom Holland's book Dominion, asyou all know about it's been a
marvelous text, one of many,that is, you know, being offered
up at a time when people aresaying what are we going to do?

(36:59):
Well, I mean, I think.

Scott Allen (37:01):
Tom Holland is such a prime example of what I'm
talking about.
In that same line as JenniferSay.
You know a non-believer who youknow has just been hit upside
the head with the fact that Ithink in his case it was the
word love, like this word andwhat we understand love to be,
especially love is sacrificialservice, agape love.

(37:21):
That did not come out of theGreek or the Roman civilization,
as he kind of assumed it did.
That had one source, and onesource only the Bible, and he
became a Christian when he sawthat as a historian.
So I see, yeah, I see, bob,just there's this.
There's some amazing kind of Iwouldn't have foreseen it in

(37:43):
2020, at the height of the wokerevolution how quickly the ideas
would be discredited and startcoming down.
Now they're deeply embeddedstill in our universities and
systems of education government.
It's not going to come out likeovernight.
I have no qualm or whatever.
This is going to be a long,long thing to get this rooted
out.

(38:03):
What I didn't foresee is thatpeople like Tom Hall and
Jennifer Say Jordan Peterson.
I didn't foresee them speakingfor truth, for freedom, for love
, whatever it was.
They started defending theBible and the biblical worldview
as it shapes a culture.
Crazy crazy and many of themaccepted Christ.

(38:23):
There's evidence of a revivalhappening, and I'm sure it's not
just limited to them so, andthey're having success.
The woke worldview is beingdiscredited, so that, I think,
is something to celebrate.
It comes back and you're right,bob, I think the average person
in the pew really is ready andprimed.

(38:45):
You know they are ready.
But again, the leadershipally,I feel like we need the people
like Nancy Peercy, darrellMiller, bob Osborne, other
people.
We need that message in theleadership right now.
But it's not.
It's still not there yet.
It doesn't seem to me it's not.

Dr. Bob Osburn (39:04):
I will say this that there is a movement among
the Christian study centers thatare adjacent to our big public
universities.
There's no question thatsomething's happening there.
For example, I was at the localChristian study center now
called Anselm House, once calledMcLaurin Institute, here at the

(39:24):
University of Minnesota.
A couple weeks ago they broughtin Dr Rosalind Picard.
A couple weeks ago they broughtin dr rosalind picard.
She is a mit scientist who'sworking on ai uh and she was
talking about ai, but as shetalked about it she naturally uh
just transformed her talk intowhat was the kind of discussion

(39:47):
that we're having right now andshe pointed right to the gospel
and she then began to talk abouthow she had been an atheist and
now she become a follower ofjesus christ.
We have a.
We have one of our topprofessors at the university of
minnesota, recently retired, butone of the best known
professors because of hisparticular work.

(40:09):
At age 76, he became a followerof Christ just several years
ago.

Scott Allen (40:14):
Amazing, it's so exciting.

Dr. Bob Osburn (40:16):
It's so exciting because he had been a Unitarian
for 50 years and he said to me,Bob, he said after George Floyd
in 2020,.
He said there was no differencebetween the Unitarian Church
and the radical people who arearching in the streets.
And this is not a guy who votesRepublican, I will assure you.

Scott Allen (40:40):
Yeah.

Dr. Bob Osburn (40:42):
But he said.
The backstory, without givinghis name right now, is that he
quietly began to read 10 volumesby a local Christian author, a
thinker, and at the end of it hesaid this is far more true than
the kind of stuff I've beenengaged with for 50 years in the

(41:05):
Unitarian Church, which has noconstitution.
And look at these evangelicalchurches churches at least they
have a Bible.
So the Word of God is stillthis tremendous.
It is worthy, and if we couldonly lean into its, its vastly
greater Resources than most ofus are ever taught to discover
in seminary and that's mean totake seminaries down, but it's

(41:30):
just a need to change.

Luke Allen (41:31):
And now is the time to change.

Scott Allen (41:32):
I mean this is what I really am, kind of coming to
is that this is such a unique,powerful opportunity for change.
That may be the change thatwe've been hoping for and
praying for and working forsince the beginning of our
ministry.
I think a person like AyaanHirsi Ali, who we know, you know
not personally, I wish we did,but she became a Christian, and
why?
Because she you know, I think,if you ask her, she was looking.

(41:55):
She came out of that fanaticalMuslim background.
Then she became a secularatheist and she sees the danger
of these ideologies, whetherit's Islam or communist China or
the woke revolution.
She says you cannot live withthese.
They are destructive.
And then she said the only oneyou can live with is the one

(42:17):
that was built from the Bible up.
And that's what it was.
It was a civilizational kind ofculture thing that brought her
to faith.
And this is really my hoperight now for the church is that
it doesn't again.
It doesn't think in terms offaith.
The bible are, you know, interms of building cultures,

(42:37):
discipling nations.
It's very individualistic, it'svery pietistic, it thinks in
terms of people getting saved,but it doesn't have a concept of
these things.
We're being reminded of it,ironically, by ayan hirsi ali,
jordan peterson.
Are these people that said, no,you've built a culture and we
need concept of these things.
We're being reminded of it,ironically, by Ayaan Hirsi Ali,
jordan Peterson, or these peoplethat said, no, you've built a
culture and we need that cultureback.
But the church has got to kindof wake up and go.

(42:59):
You're right, we lost thatsomewhere along the line and, by
the way, I think it's all inthe church lost in reaction to
the Enlightenment that was sucha huge displacement of the
church.
No, you are no longer thecenter of things Now.
You're marginalized, you don't?
You know, harvard University isno longer Christian, it's
secular.
You've been displaced and eversince those big shocks, the

(43:23):
church has been in a reactionarymode, just reacting, reacting,
reacting.
And now I feel like it's timeto stop reacting.
Stop, the enlightenment's over.
It's played itself out.
We don't have to react to itanymore.

Dwight Vogt (43:37):
Go ahead, daryl.
We've had a couple of majordonors to World Vision come to
visit us because they've beenimpacted by the DNA Wow.
And one of the things they saidwas you have given us the DNA
Wow.
And one of the things they saidwas you have given us the
language.
You've given us the words andyou've given me some language

(44:05):
today, and I think this is partof the key of what we need to do
.
You've given me the language offantasy land and then you've
given me the language of leaninto Scripture, and part of what
we need to do is highlight thelanguage that can startle people

(44:26):
.
Oh, lean into, yeah.
What do you mean by that?
And for for people sitting inthe pews, what do you mean by
that?
For past, what do you mean bythat?
What does it mean to lean intoscripture?
Because scripture is the key totruth and truth is the key to

(44:49):
freedom yes, yes and it's thatsimple.
So how do we lean into scripture?
How do we help people see evenchristians?
Your mindset is living in afantasy land.
How do we begin to take these?
We use the, the phrase Mondaychurch all the time, and I think

(45:15):
that's something that peopleare.
Oh, what do you mean by Mondaychurch?
And we've been using thelanguage Genesis 1 Christians.
Oh, what do you mean by Genesis1 Christians?
Genesis 1 Christians?
Well, you start reading theBible with Genesis 1, not

(45:36):
Genesis 3.
Those phrases or words grabpeople's attention.
What do you mean?
And whether they're Christiansor not, you can then begin to
unpack that language.
So thank you, bob, for thesetwo new hooks for me to use.

Dr. Bob Osburn (45:56):
Well, we all have to thank you so much.
I'll never forget in 95 when weall got together there in East
Texas for that well-documentedmeeting in Garden Valley
Fellowship, you were working ondiscipling the nations.
You were working on Disciplingthe Nations, you were working on
the first draft of it there,and I've used that book so much

(46:17):
with my students.
But you know, I want to pick upwith something you said there
and extend this conversation now.
This idea of leading in thescripture, let's talk about
economics, for example.
Idea of leading in thescripture, let's talk about
economics, for example.
It seems to me that for far toolong we have allowed the world
of economics and business, whichis a very prominent world, uh,

(46:40):
it's a very dominant in shapingour imaginations.
It's, it's had a lot to do withthe shaping of America
especially.
But we have allowed thelanguage of the Enlightenment to
dominate that entire discussion.
And so along has come thesocial justice people, who are

(47:05):
really neo-Marxist, as we know,trying to offer some sort of
response to that, and just asfutile a response as the kind of
language and concepts that theEnlightenment offered us.
But let me ask you this whycan't we talk about economics as
a productive enterprisecentered in the very core of our

(47:29):
humanity, which is a God coreof our humanity, which is a
God-given humanity, and be ableto take people right to Genesis
1 and unfold all the productivecapacities that are built right
into human beings and, by theway, into all of creation by a
God who sees productivity as oneof the very key points of the

(47:52):
creation that he's developed andhe's designed.
And then why can't we talkabout business not as the
pursuit of one's self-interestor trying to become rich, which
is the language that we all know, we hear it all the time.
Why can't we talk about itinstead as loving your neighbor?

(48:17):
When I develop a product orservice that other people need
and they're willing to pay forsure I may get rich doing that,
but let me ask you a priorquestion what have I done by
doing that?
I have loved my neighbor, thepeople who designed these

(48:39):
computers, for example, and theinternet, the millions of people
in the world of IT.
They would never imagine thisway of thinking about their work
, but they love their neighbor.
And look how we can do whatwe're doing because they love
their neighbor.

(48:59):
Sure, a lot of them got richand I don't begrudge them one
bit.
But the key point is they lovetheir neighbor, and I can take
you as I know Daryl, you andScott can do the same thing.
I can take you as I know daryl,you and scott can do the same
thing.
I can take you to nation afternation after nation around the
world where people spend most oftheir time not loving their

(49:20):
neighbors but waiting for theforeign remittance to come from
their rich, their rich relativewho's working in a rich western
or middle eastern country.
People who are one way oranother never have been taught
in their churches that one ofthe key ways you love your

(49:43):
neighbors you find out whattheir needs are.
You design a product or servicethat they're willing to pay for
, and in the the process youcreate new wealth and you add
value to their lives, and thenthey begin to do likewise for
you.
So why are we using that kindof language?

Dwight Vogt (50:02):
I introduced this particular subject by asking
where does the word economicscome from?
It comes from the greek wordokonomia.
And what does okonomia mean?
Stewardship of the house that'sright and you steward the house

(50:24):
for long-term impacteconomically.
That benefits the community andOconomia is in contrast to
Chromaticus, which is short-termtrading for personal benefit.

(50:46):
That's how we see economy today.
That's what our president ispromoting.
That's right.
Is chromaticus, not thebiblical concept of oconomia.

Dr. Bob Osburn (51:04):
Exactly.

Dwight Vogt (51:05):
That's our word, but do we know where it came
from?

Dr. Bob Osburn (51:11):
That's right, so we ought to be trumpeting this
for the people who love ourneighbors, and that's what we're
trying to do in this podcast,of course, but I think Bob, it's
you know.

Scott Allen (51:22):
back to Darrow's point about Genesis 3 and
Genesis 1, for way too long ourevangelical theology has been
the starting point is you're asinner, you are lost, and your
number one need, the greatestneed in your life, has nothing
to do with economics or nothingto do with business or anything
like that.
All of that doesn't reallymatter.

(51:43):
It's all going to burn.
You know you're going to dieand then you're going to leave
this world, and so none of thatwill matter at the end of the
day.
The only thing that reallymatters is your personal
spiritual salvation.
So again, listen.
I always need to say I am anevangelist.
People need to be saved, theyneed to hear the good news of

(52:06):
Jesus.

Dwight Vogt (52:07):
Christ.
But it's the good news that thekingdom of God not merely the
good news of salvation, theyalso need to hear the good news
that they're a sinner and theycan be saved and have eternal
life with Jesus Christ.

Scott Allen (52:17):
So I am in no way, in no way diminishing that as
something that's vital and evencentral.
But the problem is you limit it, and you limit it by saying
that's all that matters.
And so you start with genesis 3.
You have to go back to genesis1 to get principles of here's
god.
He created us, he put us inthis garden, he gave us this

(52:38):
task to have dominion, tosteward, to be stewards right.
That's, you know, darrow'sconcept of okonomiyah.
The word stewardship is at theheart of it to and then to do
something, to work with it,right to, to, to make it better.
You know, as dare you often say, to take the grapes and make
wine and then, yes, sell thewine and bless your neighbor or
whatever.
It is right.

(52:58):
I mean, all of that gets laidout in genesis one and two.
It's completely neglected.
That's like just people don'thave a concept for what the
bible would even say, or ifthat's important for us.
In my experience anyways, it'sjust neglected.

Luke Allen (53:15):
And, by the way, it didn't used to be neglected.

Scott Allen (53:17):
I always go back to the Reformation.
One of the things that amazesme about the Reformers is, when
the Scriptures were opened, theymined them for these principles
and they found these biblicalprinciples and they built
schools, education, economics.
They built things on biblicalprinciples in a way we don't do
anymore, seems to me.

Dr. Bob Osburn (53:37):
Exactly and, for example, another illustration
again thinking in internationalcontext, I can understand when,
in a culture like America, in asociety like America, in a
society like America, the realpressing issues, for example
going back to the 19th century,were issues of public

(53:58):
drunkenness.
Vast amounts of men, especially, were drunk.
They were drinking away thewelfare of their children and
their wives, just like, you know, we happens in certain other
parts of the world today.
So the gospel had to addressthose issues.
The gospel of being saved fromthose kinds of addictions had

(54:20):
tremendous power to enable yourchildren and your wives to
thrive.
And and uh, we can thank god.
But but if you look around theworld today, what are the most
pressing central issues?
One of the chief ones is theissue of integrity or the lack
thereof, in other words,corruption.

(54:42):
And so I'm trying to say to someof our students that in
bringing the gospel into yoursocieties in many cases
societies that are still in aplace where they don't want to
be, they're struggling to makeany progress the discipling

(55:03):
message ought to be be a man orwoman of full integrity who is
able to demonstrate to yourneighbor that you can be trusted
to produce a product or servicethat they will need and they
will value and it won't failthem when they need it.

(55:24):
So again, this comes back to theissue you've been hitting on,
scott.
We need to make the gospel.
First of all, we need to groundit in these fundamental
scriptural realities, startingwith Genesis 1.
We need to ground people inthinking worldviewishly, as we
would say.
And, number three, we need toface the fact that the gospel

(55:48):
needs to have some sort ofcontextual framework that fits
people's context.
The issue today is not publicdrunkenness in most of the world
.
The primary issue in most ofthe world is corruption, and
that's where the gospel shouldbe driven home time after time
after time.
And it's not, it's not.

Dwight Vogt (56:10):
This goes back to what we learned from Schaefer.
Yes, he talked about eachperson is an island and there's
a beach to make your landing onthat island, but the island is
surrounded by cliffs, and so youprobably remember this from him

(56:34):
, bob.
No, I don't.
As your ship is coming in andyou discover this island and you
want to explore it, you have tosail around it first to find
the beach to land on, and that'swhat you're saying right here.

(56:54):
What is the beach to land on?
Right, the gospel, and land iton the beach of integrity,

(57:17):
exactly.

Scott Allen (57:18):
In other words, if I hear both of you guys speaking
you know what is?
yeah, what's the driving issue?
Again, it comes back toJennifer Say.
For her it was men and women'ssports, or just.
Is there such a thing as menand women, bob?
For you it comes back toJennifer Say.
For her it was men and women'ssports, or just.
Is there such a thing as menand women, bob?
For you it's corruption.
I don't disagree with that Boy.

(57:38):
It seems like we're justuncovering just layer upon layer
of corruption, especially inthe early years of this Trump
administration with Doge.
We knew it was bad, but, boy,it's like it's being exposed and
it's like, wow, we are deeplycorrupt in the united states.
You know?
So, yeah, and, and then, yeah,the principles from the
scripture.
What principles give rise torelatively cultures that are
relatively uncorrupt?

(57:59):
Um, you know, and and there aremany, aren't there?
There are many, and just again,helping christians to
Christians to think that thishas to become a culture.

Dr. Bob Osburn (58:12):
And I think I heard from you, scott, kind of
what are some of the biblicalthemes that we can encourage our
brothers and sisters to land on?
And so I think one of those hasto be that there is a great God
who's made us in his image, notto satisfy ourselves, but to

(58:34):
actually bring great glory tohim and to have a clear purpose
for our lives, which I think istwofold to be productive and to
be people who protect his world.
To be people who protect hisworld.
And he's built into us threefunctional capacities to be
creative, productive andresponsible.
And that, by virtue of theImago Dei, we have four

(58:57):
intrinsic capacities to besocial, moral, rational and
spiritual.
And taking these together, Icall this the 1234 model we can
develop, I think, a way oftalking to children as well as
to adults, what it means to behuman, because Christianity is

(59:18):
an invitation into reality andaway from fantasy land.
It's an invitation to be trulyhuman in a world that wants to
make us increasingly as machines, and it's it's an invitation to
, uh, what others would call thegreatest adventure that anyone

(59:41):
could ever imagine, and that isthe kingdom of a led by a God
who is greater than we couldhave ever hoped for, and
certainly better than we couldever deserve.

Scott Allen (59:53):
Amen, bob, amen.
Well, yeah, I think, thebeachhead ideas.
I've been saying the same thing.
To the degree I haven't usedthat analogy, but I like it to
the degree that our message isyou're a sinner, you need to be
saved.
It's a vital message.
Everyone needs to hear it andrespond to it and we need to be

(01:00:13):
stewards of that message.
But you start where people areat, and that's not right now.
It doesn't seem to be thepressing question, it doesn't
seem to be the beachhead, and Ithink one of them is what is
truth?
You know, is there truth?
You know what is truth?
Is there truth?
Is there a truth about what itmeans to be male and female, for
example?

(01:00:33):
Or can we just be anything wewant and people are saying no,
we know deep down in our bonesthat that's not correct, that we
can't just be anything we want.
And if you're a man, you canjust suddenly flip a switch and
say you're a female and end upon a sports team or in a locker
room.
That's just not livable, that'sevil you know people are—but

(01:00:54):
then you have to go.
But who defines that right?
I mean, if that's a lie, let'ssay what is the truth.
That's what moves peopletowards the Bible, towards God,
because he's at the end of thatroad, and that's where you start
, that's the beachhead right.
In that case, that's where youstart, but you have to be ready
to talk about that.

(01:01:14):
Let's talk about truth.
Let's talk about reality.
You know, I think a lot ofChristians don't think of their
faith in those terms.
This is what.
I believe They've kind ofbought the postmodern thing.
This is what I.
It's good, you know it'spersonal for me whatever it is,
yeah, I believe yeah, right,exactly in fact.

Dr. Bob Osburn (01:01:31):
Uh, when I teach the comparative worldviews
course, one of my key assertionsthat I think all the students
pick up is a key idea in theentire course is that
christianity really is the onlyum worldview that that
absolutely makes a central claimto be the truth.

(01:01:54):
That's right, and actually saysthat if we are not the truth,
you shouldn't believe us.
Yes, there's no other worldviewthat is willing to dare to make
such an audacious claim.

Scott Allen (01:02:07):
Yeah, Jesus didn't rise from the dead.
We're foolish to believe itexactly.
It had to historically happenas a reality, Right?
Yep, you're right, Bob.

Dr. Bob Osburn (01:02:18):
So to lean in on the idea that this is all truth
and it's about truth, it's astruggle for truth, is to lean
into, I think, a strengthinherent in Christianity and to
really advance human welfarethrough the gospel.

Scott Allen (01:02:34):
Absolutely, I've been thinking about this in
terms of.
You know, I think JordanPeterson said when he started
studying the scriptures thatbelief in God is kind of the
prerequisite for belief in truth.
In other words, without Goddefining things as kind of the
anchor for truth, then we'rejust left with individual
interpretations.
Or, as Nietzsche said, thereare no.
What did he say?

(01:02:55):
There are no facts, onlyinterpretations.
I think is what he said.
You know, that's what we'releft with, your truth my truth.
That is what you're left with.
And then, as Orwell said, thatdoesn't last.
You're going to have the partystep in and define truth for
everyone, using power.
You know, and we're going tomake you say a man as a woman,

(01:03:16):
or we're going to make you, youknow, we're going to make you
say whatever the party wants youto say.
That, I think, is the claritythat these people are coming to.
So you have to say there is areal world and there's an anchor
for it, because it was createdby god.
Truth ends with him, you knowit ends with him.
It has no basis in any otherway.
So I do think that's a clearbeachhead, bob.

(01:03:38):
That's where you started.
This return to reality, I think, is just so important right now
luke.

Dwight Vogt (01:03:45):
Yeah, go ahead bob and I want to.

Scott Allen (01:03:46):
I want want to bring Luke in here because he's
been quiet.
I know he's got things going onin his head, so, but go ahead,
bob.
Yeah.

Dr. Bob Osburn (01:03:51):
I'm just going to make the comment that, as
Christianity brings us intoencounter with reality, one of
the dilemmas in paradise, one ofthe dilemmas that human beings
face, is that reality can bevery brutal, it can be very
harsh, it can be very harsh, itcan be terrifying.

(01:04:14):
And so if that was all thatChristianity was, is this
introduction to reality withouta savior, without someone who
can help us to redeem and enableus to see that, for those who
love God, all things that happento us work together for good,

(01:04:36):
for those who are calledaccording to his purpose, to be
able to see that there's asovereign God at work?
Without that knowledge, to onlyget half of it, it would be
devastating, and I thinkprobably part of what's happened
is that the world has beengetting one half or the other of

(01:04:56):
the message and hasn't seen howthose two things connect, that
the introduction to reality isnot only to face reality and all
of its harshness and tragedybut also to have a Savior that
gives us the grace and the hopeand the ability to actually be

(01:05:18):
redemptive change agents in aworld that looks otherwise
hopeless.

Scott Allen (01:05:22):
When I did my deep dive into the woke, as I call it
, the toxic new religion, one ofthe things I saw was that they
see a world where people actselfishly and they act tribally
and they're trying to kind ofput others under their heel for
their own personal selfishadvantage.
And what they've done is they,and that's true.

(01:05:45):
Like you said, that's a harshreality.
That's the harsh reality of afallen world and they see that
clearly.
But the problem with theirworldview is that they've
totalized, that, they've saidthat's all there is, there's
nothing more and it's so.
It took me a while to understandthat If something looks good,

(01:06:08):
like freedom or democracy orhard work, all of that isn't
really good.
That's just a tool by somebodywho's kind of weaponizing it to
use it for their personaladvantage.
That's the critical thoughtWe've got to criticize or think
critically about these so-calledgood things, because that's all
there is.
At the end of the day in thisworldview.

(01:06:29):
It's just pure power, and it'spower negatively, for advantage.
And I thought you know, whatthey don't see is the reality of
a God who is love, who'scompassionate and gracious, as
it says, and you know God sayson Mount Sinai to Moses you know
and steps in and forgives anddies you know, to redeem people

(01:06:51):
and then people that have triedto follow his example since then
.
I don't know why they don't seethat, they don't see any of
that redemptive aspect.
But what you're left with isjust a really dark worldview.
Again nobody can live with that.
And as Christopher Rufus noted,and this is what you're saying-
a critical theory can show youall the problems, but it gives

(01:07:16):
you no answers whatsoever.
No answer other than you needto flip the tables and get on
top.
Exactly that's it.

Dr. Bob Osburn (01:07:20):
You need to put your heel on somebody else's
neck, exactly, and that's why itonly tears down.

Scott Allen (01:07:26):
It's got to deconstruct, tear down.
We've got to tear.
It's got to deconstruct, teardown whatever it is right it.
Then you know, once you're ontop, there's no building.
You know, yeah, it's, it's justdestructive.
Sorry, luke, I was going tobring you in and we got going
off on something.
What are you hearing, luke?
What, what, what, what's your,what are your thoughts?

Luke Allen (01:07:46):
oh man, um, I've really enjoyed this.
This is exactly what I washoping for today with this
discussion.
It's been really fun to listento and just soak in what you
guys are saying, take notes.
I don't know if I have anythingto add.
I can do my best to summarizewhat I've heard so far.
This is an exciting discussionfor me as a young guy.

(01:08:07):
I this is.
This is an exciting discussionfor me as a young guy, I think.
I think everything is pointingat the fact that we are at one
of these kind of chapter, a newchapter of history.
Potentially.
The way people think thechapter we are in right now,
which I would say is coming to aclose and a collapse of the
close at that, is at a point ofjust.
It's just untenable.

(01:08:28):
Where we're at right now,post-modernism, this idea of
hyper-criticalness of everythingyou know, this worship of
skepticism for the sake ofskepticism, it seems, without
landing on anything, isabsolutely untenable.
With the, you know, the freedomthat we see around us, the
democracy we see around us, thatkind of came out of the

(01:08:53):
Enlightenment, you could sayPostmodernism is tearing that
all down, and it's tearing itdown where, nowhere, because
it's a rejection of truth.
So now what?
So this chapter?
I think it's coming to a realclose.
When you reject truth, youreject reality and your
worldview is just going to fallwith that.

(01:09:13):
So, yeah, I think we are at anew chapter, which is crazy to
think about, because thesechapters sometimes take hundreds
of years to play out.
You know, you think of thepostmodern era or the modern era
or the pre-modern era, and it'sexciting as a Christian
Christian because we could be apart.
We have the potential right nowif we rise to the occasion to
write the thesis of the nextchapter, if we seize the moment.

(01:09:36):
And that's exciting, that'sreally exciting.
So I love what you guys aresaying about at this point,
especially recognizing thismoment of coming off the heels
of post-modernism, thisrejection of truth which is
leaving people in, I see, threelarge directions, that's leaving
people in Hopelessness, despair.

(01:09:56):
We see that all around us, thislack of meaning.
I also see it in just aninterest in spirituality, which
is good but not always great.
I heard someone recently saywitchcraft is the fastest
growing religion in Americaright now.
Islam's growing like crazy inAmerica right now.
So there's this.
Let's look into spirituality,because it doesn't seem like

(01:10:19):
this, uh, this, this, uhenlightenment lie is working for
me anymore.
I need, I need somethingdifferent.
Or it's leading people toChrist and it's leading him to
the firm foundation that isChrist.
So, yeah, again, there's a realpotential here to lean into
this and the point that we havean answer.

(01:10:39):
This answer is based in realityand this is the only answer
that actually works in thisworld.

Scott Allen (01:10:44):
It's the only one that's livable.

Luke Allen (01:10:47):
The only one that's livable.
And it's exciting too, becauseas Christians, if we understand
that and we firmly believe that,then it's very easy to defend
the truth.
You don't have to do much, youjust kind of have to let it out.
The truth can defend itself,and you don't need to know all
the right arguments, you don'tneed to know all the right
apologetics.
Truth can win just byquestioning what is not true.

(01:11:10):
Through questioning, you canpretty much tear down any lie
and point to its absence ofreality, essentially because as
humans we are prone to seek thetruth, which is great because we
have the law written on ourheart, because we're created in
the image of God.
So a lot of the defending oftruth just comes down to

(01:11:31):
questioning what is not true,and I think you can do a lot of
good just there and that doesn'ttake too much.

Scott Allen (01:11:38):
That's not too difficult.
You remind me of that famousRod Dreher, you know made me
aware of this and it was theactor.

Luke Allen (01:11:45):
Oh, yes, yes, I knew you, baclav Havel.

Scott Allen (01:11:48):
Yeah, live in truth , you know.
And he tells the story of thegreen grocer who had to always
put up the sign out of fear, youknow, the Workers of the World
Unite sign in his grocery storewindow or else the powers that
be were going to put him out ofbusiness and put him in prison.
But he knew it was a lie.
And then one day he said I wasa lie.

(01:12:11):
And then one day he said I'mnot going to put the sign up.
I refused to put the sign upand hobble said that was the key
that brought down the sovietunion.
It was just that was the firstbreak in the day, that was the
break in the dike and he losthis business.
Likely that green grocer did,but he, what hobble said, was so
powerful.
He said he gained his humanityand it took me a while to
understand what that meant.
He gained his humanity.
We are.
It took me a while tounderstand what that meant he
gained his humanity.

(01:12:31):
We are made in the image of God, and God is true, he is truth,
he never lies.
To be a human being is to be atruth teller, a true human being
, it's not to be.
To lie is to diminish who youare as a human being.
You are most fully human thecloser you get to being a person
of integrity who tells thetruth and doesn't lie, even if

(01:12:51):
it costs you your life.
And that was the power of thegreen grocer there.
So that's what I hear.

Dr. Bob Osburn (01:12:57):
You say I appreciate, luke, what you said
about the importance of askingquestions and just to put an
underline under that, it's justso evident that in Jesusesus's
ministry, most of what he didwas just ask questions, and if
he spent most of his time askingquestions, um, that's a good

(01:13:18):
direction for all of us.
Is right now we've been givinganswers.
We love to do that, but, um, inreality, most people who are
skeptical, we can get themfarther down the road towards
reality, the reality of a Godwho created them and came to
redeem them by asking questions.

Scott Allen (01:13:39):
Bob, we probably need to wrap up here, as much as
I would love to keep talking.
This has just been so fun, butyou hinted at some things you're
working on.
Do you want to just tell us alittle bit more about the
current project that you'reworking on and where people can
go to learn more about it?

Dr. Bob Osburn (01:13:54):
Well, first of all, we welcome people to come
to, of course, our website,wilberforceiiorg and named for
the very famous WilliamWilberforce, who we all honor as
a great Christian socialreformer and redemptive change
agent of several hundred yearsago.

(01:14:15):
Right now we're working on aproject to understand the
Bible's teaching aboutleadership and that's a research
project that we're on the frontend of.
We have an internationalresearch team that has has done
some significant research onthat and we're hoping this year

(01:14:35):
to compile the results and andthen to write a text that
hopefully will be publishedwithin a couple years exciting.
So that's a key part of ourwork.
But there's so many otheropportunities coming with others
around the world who are askingus, particularly in the area of
anti-corruption.

(01:14:56):
We have, essentially, anextension center that's
developing in Malawi at least inpart it's developing there, and
that's one of the key themesthemes along with teaching
pastors about how to do businessbecause, as I think you're
aware and much of the world um,pastors or people who go into

(01:15:20):
the pastorate to be honest, aregoing into it as a way to make
money because there's no otherreal avenue for getting a job,
but we're trying to teach themthat they can be a pastor but at
the same time they can create agood or service that others
need and genuinely serve theirneighbors with those words and

(01:15:43):
services, as well as the gospelof jesus christ.
So we're hoping more and morepastors will move to the
bivocational model and showtheir members how to do just
exactly what I talked about.

Scott Allen (01:15:56):
Wow, Bob, that's so exciting.
I'm so grateful for you and forthe way you've been so
faithfully working to strengthenthe church, and particularly in
the global south of thedeveloping world, and just
really getting after practicalissues.
So I just want to encourage allof our listeners to yeah, to go
to the Wilberforce Academywebsite, Wilberforce.

Dr. Bob Osburn (01:16:17):
II.

Scott Allen (01:16:18):
Yeah, Wilberforce International Institute.
Wilberforce InternationalInstitute Forgive me for that,
Bob yeah.

Dr. Bob Osburn (01:16:24):
Wilberforceiiorg .

Scott Allen (01:16:27):
Wilberforceiiorg, wilberforceiiorg.
Yep, let's all go there andcheck it out and see what we can
do to support Bob and hisimportant work.
Bob, thanks for just the timeyou've given us today, just the
depth of wisdom, your insights,your camaraderie.
You've meant so much to me andto all of us, so I just want to
thank you for that you all atreasure to us and we thank God

(01:16:50):
for you just as much All right,well, listen everybody.
thanks for listening to anotherepisode of Ideas have
Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.

Luke Allen (01:17:03):
Hey everyone, thank you so much for listening to
this episode with our amazingguest today, dr Bob Osborne.
If you'd like to learn moreabout him, his writings and his
ministry, the WilberforceInternational Institute, then
make sure to head over to thisepisode's page, which you'll see
linked in the show notes, andon that episode page you can

(01:17:24):
also learn more about our newestbook and Bible study here at
the Disciple Nations Alliancethat share the title 10 Words to
Heal Our Broken World, and bothof those are by Scott Allen, as
you'll remember me mentioningduring the break today.
So, again, if you'd like tolearn more about those, you can
head over to 10wordsbookorg oryou can head over to Amazon,
search the title and find yourcopy or copies today.

(01:17:46):
That's it for today.
Thank you so much for joining usfor this episode of Ideas have
Consequences.
We hope that you'll be able tojoin us next week and, in the
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that, of course, really helps uscontinue to grow and expand

(01:18:08):
this show.
So thank you so much in advancefor that.