Principles Work, But They Need The Cornerstone | Katherine Gallagher’s Take on ARC - Ideas Have Consequences

Episode Transcript
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Katherine Gallagher (00:03):
of remembering that we actually are
dealing with people, not justideas, and to me that that
connects also the thing you'resaying, even with the, what
you're saying with dr jordanpeterson, with others who maybe
they connect with the principles, but they're missing the person
right.
And so I think we, we can dothat as believers.
Sometimes.
Well, we, we, we know thesethings work and I'm going to
give you my, my steps and I'mgoing to I can destroy you in an

(00:25):
apologetics debate, but there'sa person that I'm talking to,
about this and I just thinkabout that too, and how we
relate also to the Lord.
There's all these principles,but there's a person that they
are connected with.

Scott Allen (00:37):
Absolutely, and I think we've got to remember that
and not just any person thecreator of the universe, the one
who created you, the creator ofthe universe, the one who
created you and the only properrelationship to that kind of
person is a worshipfulrelationship.
It's a bowing of the knee and acomplete surrender.

Luke Allen (01:03):
Hi friends, welcome to.
Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show, we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.

(01:23):
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.

Well, welcome again to another episode of Ideas
have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen, joined by myson Luke Allen today, and my
team member and son Luke Allen,and today we have back with us
Catherine Gallagher, who hasbecome now kind of a regular
guest on Ideas have Consequences.

(02:04):
We're super excited to have youback, catherine.
How are you doing?

I'm doing well, thank you, and delighted
to be here again.
Just always enjoy ourconversations and love what
Disciples of Nations Alliance isdoing.

Well, thank you.
And for those of you who arenew to the podcast and don't
know Catherine, catherine, I'lljust give a brief introduction.
You can fill in the gaps here,but Catherine Gallagher is the
CEO of Go Strategic, which is asister ministry to the Disciple
Nations Alliance that we havedeep respect for.
It was founded by Catherine'sfather, dennis Peacock.
It's a Christian discipleshipministry, training ministry,

(02:39):
dedicated to equipping believersto be leaders in the
communities where they live,work and serve, whether they are
business professionals orparents or pastors, helping them
to be all that God wants themto be a salt and light for God's
kingdom in our broken world.
Catherine has 30 years ofexperience in leadership and

(03:00):
speaking on topics ranging frombiblical worldview to
organizational stewardship tointerpersonal relationships.
Catherine's got her bachelor'sdegree from Azusa Pacific
University and she's the authorof a couple of books, including
a handbook on Christianworldview, and she's also a

(03:21):
curriculum development personwho's developed curricula for
university-level courses.
Catherine is joining us fromher home, I believe, in Santa
Rosa, california.
Is that correct?

Yes, we are located in Santa Rosa,
California wine country, justabout an hour north of San
Francisco.

Yeah, it's a beautiful place there.
Yes, married and two daughterswe were just talking about your
two daughters who are nowcollege age.
So that's exciting.
It's an exciting season of life.
Yes, well, catherine, we wantedto have you on back today
because we understood that youwere actually at the ARC
conference, which is ARC standsfor the Alliance for Responsible

(03:59):
Citizenship.
It's a international movementnetwork that Jordan Peterson, I
think, was central to founding,and it was in.
Was it in London, catherine, orwhere was it?

Yes, yeah, it was in London again this year
, Different venue because it wassignificantly larger than the
first one, which had kind of a.
I would say that's good and notbad, but good and different
when it's that big.
It was literally quadruple thesize of what it was the first
time.
And how many people was thatthen so it was over 4,000

(04:34):
something this time.
The first inaugural event wasonly a thousand, a little over a
thousand, which you know.
There's the benefits to thedifferences inside and there's
the hindrances sometimes becauseyou know, when it was the
smaller one it was easier tonaturally overlap and interact
with different people.
4,000 people it was at a verylarge, it was at the main

(04:55):
conference center there inLondon, the Excel, and
definitely a differentenvironment to try to find
people.
My own father was theresometimes and I couldn't find
him.
It was huge but you know, god'sgrace you still run into
certain people.
But it was definitely a.
With it being significantlylarger, I would say that did

(05:16):
shift some of the some of theopportunities for exchanges.

But yeah, Wow, wow, crazy.
I didn't realize it was thatbig.
That's huge.

Yeah.

Yeah, so go ahead.
Yeah, I want to set the stage alittle bit for our listeners.
This is something I've beenfollowing at a distance.
I've not been to the conference.
I'm very interested in it.
I just was on their website andI pulled this off.
Yeah, I want to set the stage alittle bit for our listeners.
This is something I've beenfollowing at a distance.

(05:49):
I've not been to the conference.
I am very interested in it.
I just was on their website andI pulled this off.
This is what they say aboutthemselves.
The Alliance for ResponsibleCitizenship, or ARC, is an
international movement with avision for a better world, where
empowered citizens takeresponsibility and work together

(06:10):
to bring flourishing andprosperity to their families,
communities and nations.
That sounds a little bit likewhat we're trying to do at the
DNA.
Yeah, exactly.

Luke Allen (06:18):
Talk to the kids.
I think they stole our missionstatement here minus a few
things here.

But, anyways, it goes on and it says we are
inviting you to join us indeveloping a better narrative in
response to life's mostfundamental social, economic,
philosophical and culturalquestions.
We reject the inevitability ofdecline and instead are seeking
solutions which draw onhumanity's highest virtues and

(06:44):
extraordinary capacity forinnovation and ingenuity.
That's from the website for theAlliance for Responsible
Citizenship and, as I understandit, catherine, you know I do
listen pretty frequently toJordan Peterson's podcast and
you know I remember hearingdifferent episodes where he was
and I, you know I rememberhearing different episodes where

(07:05):
he was.
I think a big part of themotivation for him forming this
was in reaction to the WEF, theWorld Economic Forum in Davos.

Switzerland .
Is that correct from yourunderstanding?
Yes, they basically want tomake themselves the conservative
answer to that.

Right Right, conservative answer to that
Right right.
So it you know.
And again, for those of you whoaren't familiar with that, that
I think most people have somefamiliarity with that.
I was just.
I'll just read a little bit.
I'm reading this great book byour friend Oz Gennes called Our
Civilizational Moment.

And Oz was there.
I got to chat with him.

He was at the ARC.
Yes, I love Oz.
How great, how great.
Was he a speaker?

He was.
He was a speaker and I ran intohim several times and you know
he is just, he carries such asweet, a sweetness to him and a
mantle, like that quiet strength.
You know, I just I highlyrespect him.
And again, his who he is inperson is just, is exactly what
you see there and he just is awonderful, wonderful godly man.
I just really appreciate him inthe spirit, who he is, me too.

He's a guy who is a true leader, I think, of the
evangelical church in the UnitedStates and around the world and
, unlike a lot of our leaderswho've really struggled and have
slipped and fallen.
You know Megan Basham's newbook, oz has stood strong and
that comes across in thisfantastic book which I really
recommend everyone read.
Our Civilizational Moment, theWaning of the West and the War

(08:37):
of the Worlds.
Oz pulls no punches in thisbook.
He puts his cards on the tableand he you know here's what he
says about the World EconomicForum, which, by the way, I
think it's interesting he callsthem the global resetters.
I like that.
The global resetters, he saysthey're powerful political
elites and high-flying corporatechieftains and are urging the

(09:01):
world to move in the samedirection.
Only a global directorate inone area after another, they say
, can save humanity and theplanet from war, environmental
catastrophe and populationcrisis and endless pandemics,
completing this fatefulauthoritarian convergence.
There are those who argue thatonly increasing centralized

(09:25):
control and regulation by elitescan save the West from its
mounting conflicts and chaos.
That's his kind of shortdescription of the World
Economic Forum.

I thought that put it pretty well,
actually pretty accuratelyexactly.

So they've got a strong it's kind of an elitist
set of values.
They believe that thesepowerful elites economic
chieftains, as he said, orcorporate chieftains and
political leaders they reallyare in a position to provide
kind of global leadership.
It's a very centralized kind ofidea.

(10:03):
Global idea doesn't respectnation states, doesn't really
respect individuals orindividual freedom and you will
own nothing and be happy.
When I listen to him talksometimes it reminds me of some
kind of combination of Orwelland Huxley right.
Yeah, definitely.
You know we'll make sure you'rehappy and you know we'll plug

(10:25):
you into computers and you canenjoy all of your pornography
and, you know, eat all the foodor whatever, but we'll control
things for the good of everyoneelse.
It's a creepy vision, frankly,and it's very, you know, it's
very un-Christian, very secular.
It's rooted in, you knowclearly.
You know deeply secular set ofideas.

(10:46):
They don't believe in God.
You know clearly here.
So here you've got the Arksetting itself out to go in a
very different direction, and sotalk about that.
How would you describe,catherine, what you know based
on your experience there?
The big picture what is Ark?
What do you think is deeplysecular set of ideas.
They don't believe in God.
You know clearly here.

(11:06):
So here you've got the Arksetting itself out to go in a
very different direction.
So talk about that.
How would you describe,catherine?
You know, based on yourexperience there, the big
picture what is Ark?
What do you think is?
What are they trying to do here?

Yeah, I think it's exactly what you said
there.
They really their heart for itreally was to counteract this
narrative that is being pushedglobally and, unfortunately, has
really had really taken centerstage, although I think there's
been some good shifts in theselast few years of other voices
coming out to say, hey, wait aminute, this is not accurate and
we don't.
We aren't what you say we areto.

(11:43):
You know, as far asconservatives and Christians and
all that, what's interestingthat they're doing is it's all
based on Judeo-Christian values,but they're not saying you
don't have to be a Christian tobe a part of it, the Ark which
actually, in a broad sense, Ithink that's a good thing.
Let's bring people in.
Let's not be scared of peoplethat maybe aren't completely
where we are yet, becausethere's still a lot of people
that maybe aren't completelywhere we are yet, because

(12:04):
there's still.
You know, a lot that people dohave in common that right now,
really we need to be looking at.
You know uniting forces thatway, so they, everything that
they're doing really is, though,based on Judeo-Christian values
, really opposite to what thedescription you just read there.
You know, again, that theelites know better than you and
all these things and looking atthe flip side of wait a minute,

(12:26):
actually even the common man canunderstand these things and we
can maybe get into this further.
But you know the importance oflocalism, the family, a lot of
different things that have beenpushed off with this different
narrative for how it's addressed.
So, yeah, their goal was reallyto counteract that.
The first year it wasinvitation only, which is part
of why it was smaller, and itwas neat because they were

(12:47):
trying to pull in key voicesfrom all over the world that
really felt this way and hadsome stake in the game here
already.
And then this next year that'spart of why it was so much
larger is they did open it up toanyone who had been before
could invite other people and itbecame a more open forum, which
is part of why it grew so muchin size.
And I know that they'replanning on doing some more
regional events and somedifferent kind of gatherings,

(13:09):
because they do recognize, onceyou get to a certain size, you
just can't have the sameinteractions.
But they had, you know, somespecial dinners that you could
go to that were smaller settingsto talk about particular
subjects.
They had different kind ofbreak off things and I think
they're going to do more.
They're really trying to start amovement which I really
appreciate and, again, quitefrankly, because it is not

(13:32):
directly tied to a particularchurch or denomination, I think
it has been easier for them topull more people together
because you know how we aresometimes in the church if it's
not our favorite denomination orwhatever group it is, sometimes
we don't want to be a part ofit.
So I think the Lord is reallyusing them to call different
people together and you know itwas a wonderfully diverse group

(13:52):
and for me it was wonderfulbecause it literally killed like
a dozen birds maybe 20 birdswith one stone, because I saw
people from all over the worldthat we work with that it would
have taken me dozens of trips tohave gotten to all these people
and to be able to actually seethem all in one place and then
to actually also to sometimesconnect them to one another.
I'm very much a strategicnetworker, so it was a fun time

(14:14):
for me to get to purposelyintroduce different people to
one another and I know that'spart of their heart.
For these gatherings too isfinding other like-minded people
that you can connect with thatare doing things you know all
over the world.
So, um, yeah, but it was, itwas very inspirational, like it,
like it was the first time, Iwould say they hit on some of
the same content, um, and then,you know, did different things.

(14:39):
They actually had a whole boothsection, which is something they
didn't have before, like avendor area where a couple of
key groups you know, katie,katie faust, who you've had on
before them before us, was oneof the main booths there focus
on the family, which folks inthe family was not at the first
one, so that was kind of cool tohave them there.
They were working on aworldview project, actually
filming some things there, andhandful of other interesting

(15:00):
groups that were there, um, and,yeah, so it's, it was really
exciting to see different peoplecome together yeah, who else
would you know from our kind ofnetwork that you know that where
we have common overlap, did yousee you mentioned oz genis, um,
yeah oz was there and a handfulof y whamers.
For those of us who love y whamgot to connect with uh some neat
y whamers from all over and um,I'm trying to think about, like

(15:23):
I said I mentioned katieobviously was there, uh folks on
the family uh colson center wasjohn stone street there yep he
was there.
Uh, john was there and, um,trying to think of other folks
that would be vichal was there,wasn't he?
Vichal was not at the actualconference he was at something
prior.
Yeah, yeah, vichal was at theone, the first one he was at the

(15:45):
first one yeah, but, um, yeah,I just found out.
Actually, someone that I metwith at this conference, I just
found out, vichal is going to bespeaking for them.
Uh, we'll give a little plugfor center for christian concern
in the uk.
Vichal is going to be speakingfor them in oxford in a few
weeks.
They're a really neat groupthat basically help fight there.
It's a group of lawyers thathelp fight for conservative uh,
for christians and conservativecauses in the uk.

(16:07):
Um, so I know vishal is goingto be with them in a few weeks,
but, uh, but yeah, there was.
There was a handful of, um, youknow, religious freedom groups
again, groups that wereconnected with one of our
friends out of south africa thatdoes that.
There were some politicalpeople.
I won't drop all the names justbecause, uh, for safety for
some folks.
There were some folks that Isaw that I absolutely adore and
love, that are political figuresin Africa that have had their

(16:29):
lives threatened.
So you have to be able to comeout to these kind of events to
network and be inspired andconnect that way.
So, yeah, and there were somefolks there too from Family
Research Council, heritageFoundation.
I mean, you'd know a lot of thegroups.

Would you say.
You said that it's notexplicitly Christian and you can
see that in the way that theydescribe themselves.
There's no mention of God orthe church, but would you say
that the majority or kind of theleadership are Christians?
Yes, majority is.

Christians and actually it was way more
Christ forward, shall we say,this year, much more blatant
promotion of the gospel, thescripture.
You know Os had been a part ofit before, but again he was part
of it and others.
This year they had more veryblatant Christians at the
forefront.
Speaking kind of from the stageSpeaking, sharing you know

(17:28):
referencing the gospel,referencing scriptures, but then
you did still have the folksthat are maybe agnostic and or
you know just differentdenominations and sects.
You know a lot of Catholicrepresentation just wonderful
some Jewish.
So a lot of you knowcommonality there, but
definitely more explicitlyChristian this year, I would say
, and I think that wasinteresting because there were

(17:51):
some folks coming that maybedidn't realize how many
Christians there were there.
I remember having a couple ofconversations with people going
huh, like they didn't realizehow Christian so many of the
people were there.
But again, I think it's goodbecause the reality is these
principles as we know they work,whether you know Jesus or not.
And I think it's good becausethe reality is these principles
as we know they work, whetheryou know Jesus or not.
And I think it's just anotherway that it's salt and light
that you know preach the gospelat all times and when necessary,

(18:13):
use words.
You know St Francis of Assisi.
So there was a lot of thatgoing on with the principles.
That I think does reach adifferent set of people.

Interesting.
Yeah, I was thinking about youknow.
It seems to me that this isjust an observation.
Love your thoughts on it.
You know just that what bringsthis particular group together,
it's not evangelism, you know,it's not church growth or things
like that.
But what it is is it'sprinciples that lead to free and

(18:45):
flourishing nations, that arerooted in the biblical story,
the biblical narrative, if youwill.
You know the biblical worldviewas Jordan Peterson I'm grateful
for him saying this that kindof at the root of every culture
you have a story, a big story, aworldview story, you know, and
in the Bible that story beginswith Genesis 1-1,.
In the beginning, god right,he's at the beginning of

(19:08):
everything.
God created the heavens and theearth, and of course we know
that the adversary is a part ofthis story.
We have an antagonist, satan,and we have the fall, and then
the drama of the story is thisstory of redemption, and it
climaxes with the coming ofChrist and the cross, and then
it reaches its consummation atthe very end of time.
So it's a magnificent storythat shapes everything, and if

(19:32):
you're not a Christian, youstill live by stories right In
the beginning was matter that'sall there is.
Your life is nothing butmeaningless matter.
I mean, it's not a very nicestory, or it's not a story that
gives much you know, or allthere is is power right a.
It's not a story that givesmuch.
You know.
All or all there is is power,right, and it's just a matter of
seeing if you can accrue enoughpower to force your will on
other people, right, maybe fortheir own good, if you're a

(19:53):
member of the wef, but it'sstill a story.
Yeah, so jordan peterson's greatin in the sense of saying that
at the core of all civilizationsand cultures is a is a story, a
narrative.
The question is, is it a truestory?
And he's kind of reminding us.
So back to what?
So these are people that aresaying it's the biblical story

(20:14):
that gives rise to certainvalues the value of the
individual, the dignity of theindividual, the importance of
family, the importance ofcommunity and of nations and of
just things like sacrifice andlove and right.
You get all of these thingsfrom the biblical story, yes,
and they all agree, whetherthey're Christian or not, on the
importance of those things.

(20:34):
I guess that's what kind of isthe uniting factor, it sounds
like, for building healthycultures.

Yeah, yeah, it was interesting that
actually Dr Jordan reallyemphasized a ton of biblical
narratives and that's actuallybeen part of his whole tour that
he's been on globally.
Those who wrestle with God andI actually I'd mentioned this to
Luke earlier I actually had metwith Dr Jordan and his wife
when they were on their tour.
They came through our town andhe was actually practicing his
arc speech.

(21:00):
He said that to the crowd hey,I'm going to practice my arc
speech with you guys andemphasizing some of the biblical
narratives and drawing fromthat and really what he was
really after it was interestingwas servant leadership.
That's the term we would use asservant leadership.
He didn't actually use thoseterms, but that's really what
his culmination at the end ofthe event was Are we willing to
be servant leaders?
And he did draw from bible andand talking about the spies in

(21:24):
the land and all differentthings and it.
But it was so interestingbecause he draws so much from
the scripture and he's quitewell versed in the scripture, uh
, but as you may know and thisisn't a criticism, this is just
excited for when it happens youknow, he still isn't officially
a follower of jesus and so it'sinteresting because he's so
steeped in all these biblicalstories and promoting them and
using them, and and people dorelate to them.
But it's interesting becausehe's so steeped in all these

(21:45):
biblical stories and promotingthem and using them, and people
do relate to them.
But it's interesting becauseit's from a slightly different
angle, because he hasn't yet hadhis personal encounter with
Jesus.
So it's yeah.

Yeah, no, and I think that probably must carry
over into the culture that'sthere at the Ark right, since
he's so central to the wholeevent.

right, it's really his vision, yeah, but
there are other strongChristians in leadership that
are alongside him, that do havepersonal relationship with
Christ.

And he's good with that of course, yeah, he is.

I mean he's totally open.
He just, you know, it comesdown to revelation.
It's got to be revelation.
You can't force it.
So he everything on the level,but it's.
You know, it's just a differentthing when it becomes a
personal, a personal conversionthat way.
But yes, the Philippa BaronessPhilippa Stroud, is a very
strong believer.
Her husband, david, and her area huge part of what they're

(22:35):
doing there and really buildingout some further networking and
things that they're doingconnected to this and they're
very strong believers.
Her husband was actually apastor, just stepped down from
pastoring to go full-time intokind of an offshoot ministry
connected to this called the ArkForums.
But they're wonderful peoplereally love the Lord, strong

(22:56):
believers.
I've interacted with them quitea bit.
But yeah, it's interestingagain when you have it, it's
bringing these principles andthe stories and the impact of
storytelling really.
And then you know how does thatroll out with people in
different spaces of faith butall united in understanding hey,
what the world is offeringdoesn't work.

(23:18):
What the Bible offers actuallyworks, whether you like it or
not.
You know we always think of itas impeding on our freedom and,
as we know, the reality is true.
Freedom is found in actuallybeing able to follow your
conscience and live according tothese things.
So there's excitement in thattoo of them.
Really, what's being pushedthere?

(23:38):
To share that To some peoplewho maybe have not heard people
think this way, even out ofChristian circles.
You know we don't always takeit to the next step, even in
Christian circles, with thereality of how we're meant to
transform culture, so I reallyrespect what they're doing there
with that.

Yeah, no, that's for sure.
You know, I think that I'veoften sensed that there's a gap.
You have this growing group,represented by ARC, let's say,
that are looking at the Bible orChristianity primarily through
that lens of what is it from theBible that gives rise to
healthy, flourishingcivilizations?
You know, they're interested inculture, in building

(24:15):
civilizations, in buildinghealthy nations and, like you
say, it's something that a lotof evangelicals they don't get
to, and sometimes it's by design.
I mean, what you know what theyget to is individual or
personal salvation.
Right, you know we need toevangelize, we need people to
accept Christ as their personalSavior, some basic level of

(24:38):
discipleship, usually inspiritual things like Bible
reading and church attendanceand evangelism, but then it
doesn't get beyond that, itdoesn't kind of get out to.
How does this kind of rippleoutwards in terms of impacting
society and culture and evennations?
Right, which is really kind ofwhy the DNA exists is it's to
try to help the church recoverthat loss, you know, which it

(24:59):
didn't always have, that loss.
There was a continuum ofunderstanding that salvation and
church growth isn't an end toitself, it's a means to a bigger
end, which is the blessing ofnations really.
And of course we understand thatthere is no Christian utopia
this side of Christ's return.
But we got to work.
God wants us to work for thegood of our neighbors.

Exactly.

So these guys get that, but I feel like gosh,
there's kind of a gap betweenthat and a lot of a lot of
churches who haven't yet wokenup to that.
Still, you know.

Yeah, to that end.
To some degree it was more of akingdom, if we use that term
the gospel, the kingdom.
It was more of a gospel thekingdom conference and a handful
of Christian events.
I've been to that that.
You know that, as you as thename of this podcast, ideas have
consequences and that you knowwe can't just we don't live in a

(25:50):
vacuum.
We have to be responding towhat's happening in the world
today and, again, whatprinciples work for that Cause?
If we're, if we're too passivewhich we have been in many ways,
you know it, it it gets filledin by other ideas and other
things and other, you know, andthat's what we've seen happen in
so many countries around theworld where we've had wonderful
gospel of salvation but wehaven't had the gospel of the
kingdom and we've got a lot ofChristian ghettos going on and

(26:15):
somebody's got to run for office.
So if we're not out there,somebody else is and you know
all the ripple effect that wayand they really get that which I
really appreciate, of juststirring up people to be like,
hey, you've got to be involvedand whatever realm you're called
to, you need to be involved andyou need to understand the
philosophical underpinnings ofwhat's happening here.

Luke Allen (26:39):
If you're a Christian who wants to make a
difference in healing yourculture in this exciting and
unique civilizational momentthat we live in today, but
you're not exactly sure how muchyou can really do or what you
can do.
Firstly, you can do a lot morethan you know.
Every single Christian has acritical role in discipling
their family, their community,their city, their culture or

(27:00):
even their nation.
You are needed.
And secondly, if you'rewondering where you can start or
what you can do, for most of us, the most important first step
that we can take is tounderstand the true biblical
definitions of some of the mostimportant words that God has
entrusted to us, words likefaith, truth, love, marriage and
human Words that have beendrastically and dramatically

(27:23):
redefined by the enemies ofgospel today, so much so that
many of us and our peers Thankyou without even knowing it.
So again, step one if you wantto make a difference today is to
deeply understand theseculture-forming words as defined
by God in His Word, and then goone step further by living out
these words in how you do yourmarriage, in how you treat and

(27:47):
love humans around you, in howyou defend the truth and in how
you appreciate beauty.
So, again, if you want to makea difference in this
civilizational moment, it startsby grounding the most important
words you use in the Bible.
And to help you do this, scottAllen, my dad, wrote our newest
book, an accompanying Biblestudy that share the title 10

(28:07):
Words to Heal Our Broken World,restoring the true meanings of
our most important words, wordslike freedom, justice, truth,
faith, beauty, authority, sex,marriage human and love.
To wrap up, here's what ourguest, Catherine Gallagher, had
to say about this book, and Iquote whoever controls language

(28:27):
and its meanings controlsculture.
This important book is awake-up call to return to the
true meaning of words andunderstand their value and

(28:50):
impact on culture.
End quote.

Yeah, I do, I do kind of this is, I guess, a
question for you, or just I'mkind of musing on this.
I think there's a sense wherepeople have looked at these
other worldviews postmodern,cultural, marxist and they've
really seen just where it leads.
You know it leads to cultureswhere there is no respect for
human dignity or for freedom.

(29:21):
You know we just see rampantcensorship or there is no,
there's really no love, there'sno basis for reconciliation,
it's just kind of differentidentity groups warring against
each other, you know.
And so people have seen thatthe kind of societies that these
false worldviews are buildingin the West are really dark and
they don't work.
As you said, they just lead usinto all sorts of division,

(29:48):
hatreds, death.
You know really dark stuff.
And so you've got groups thatare saying, gosh, these biblical
ideas, they kind of work almostkind of pragmatically, you know
.
But Darrow, you know, is oftenfond of saying and I totally
agree with him that these ideasor values, or principles, if you

(30:09):
will, they're not justfree-floating and we don't just
lob onto them because theyhappen to be kind of.
And we don't just lob onto thembecause they happen to be kind
of.
They work, they actually haveto be rooted.
All culture, dara would say, isrooted in cult or at the
deepest level of worship.
You know that you're going toworship or serve something,
ultimately, you know.

(30:30):
And so these Christian beliefsand values that come to us
through the scriptures, and theyultimately find their source,
their lifeblood, in the livingand active worship of the one
true God.
You know, you have to bow theknee, you have to acknowledge
that God is real, he is who hesays he is, jesus is his son,

(30:53):
and you bow the knee and youworship him, and then that
becomes the lifeblood.
It seems to me that givesenergy to the values and, you
know, any kind of obedience interms of the application of
principles that lead to theseflourishing cultures and nations
and families and stuff.
And so I, yeah, I wonder, Ijust I'm looking at it, kind of

(31:14):
observing it from the outside,going is that present or is it
just we like to kind of—thesefalse worldviews are breaking
down and wrecking things.
We want a better story, abetter set of values, a better
set of principles.
They come from the Bible.
But does it go deeper than that?
Does it get down to God himselfand bowing the knee to the king

(31:37):
and worshiping him?
Yeah, I'm just kind of musingand reflecting.
I guess I love your thoughtsbecause you were there and I
just really, you know what areyour thoughts or reactions to
what I'm saying, catherine?

Well, I think, on the broader level,
honestly, I think it's a bothand I always think there's so
many things that are it's a bothand because the principles do
work and I think about you know,think about some businesses,
right, you've seen somebusinesses that have done
incredibly well that are notgodly businesses, but if you
look at their business practice,they're actually applying godly

(32:08):
principles in their businessand how they treat their
employees, how they actually dotransparency in their, in their
um, in their books, and thedifferent things that you see
there that are actually, um,godly principles are being
applied, but it's notnecessarily godly people.
So it's that weird both and Ithink of.
Well, the principles do workand so certain things may just
keep going, but at the same time, of course, you've got an

(32:30):
individual who doesn't have that, that, that knee bow Christ.
So they, at least in theirpersonal level, are not going to
have the same flourishing wewould say right, and the same
perspective, and I would saythat would also go to.
You know, when hard times come,they may end up who knows where
they're going to land, even ifthey've been doing these good
things and these good principlesright.

(32:51):
So I think there's a both, andthere it's wonderful.
It also, as I said earlier, canbe evangelistic that way too,
because you see people, whenthey start seeing the principles
and the ways of god, it does,for many, ping their hearts and
can be a means towards salvationthat way, and I would
definitely say I saw that at theevent, with certain things
being shared that it's a way itis evangelistic with no I.

You know, we've seen many people I think of
russell brand or I on her.
See ali, who started at thelevel of maybe you know, wow,
things are really broken andmoving in a very dark direction.
And, um, you know, what was itthat created free societies that
respected, you know, theindividual and built strong
families.
What was that, you know?
Oh, that was the bible.
And uh, wow, you know, look atthat and built strong families.

(33:36):
What was that, you know?
Oh, that was the Bible.
And wow, you know, look at that.
And then and I think this ishonest I think that the honest
response to that is at the verycenter of the Bible is God
himself right.
I mean God, the creator of all,and the only you know really
logical response is if you wantthat world is to bow to the one
who created it, right, you knowthe living God.

(33:58):
Yeah, like so.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has done that,and many have done that They've
bowed the knee.
You know, and I think you'reright, jordan Peterson is I.
Sometimes I'm a little worriedabout him because he just he
pulls right up to the line andthen steps back and you know, he
talks about it in some waysthat really move him to tears,
but other times it's still thestory.
that's just kind of like.

Do you believe this is the true story?
You?

know, or is this just a story that happens to
create a healthy civilization,you know right?

Well, you know it comes down to, on that
individual side, just thedifference If you don't have
that personal revelation, it'sall.
It's all good things, but itdoesn't if it doesn't actually
change your heart.
And I know we've seen this inand again.
This isn't a criticism ofanybody, this is just the
reality.
We've seen it in life withincredible Christian leaders who
at some point end up stumbling,and I'm not talking about sin,

(34:47):
but just in the sense of theyget disillusioned and I go at
some point there was not thatpersonal hook in their heart
that was I'm a slave to Christ,no matter what I mean.
I remember my own life hittinga couple really tough periods of
my life where I knew theprinciples and there's a level
you do the principles and theprinciples work.
But also we live in a fallenworld.

(35:08):
So there's times where itappears that the principles
aren't working quote unquotebecause these bad, bad things
happen, but it's it's becauseit's a fallen world and people
have free will, right.

And, at the end of the day, we don't worship
principles.
You know we worship.

He's a real person, he is the way, the
truth and the life.
Truth is a person and andthat's what we have to have have
the hook in our hearts.
Otherwise, all of us could besubject to to, to straying or
being disillusioned or what haveyou?
And and that's really what itcomes down to, right?

Yeah, and even Jordan Peterson of late, like
you say he's saying.
You know, when I look at theworld um that the worldview of,
say, your average you know,participant in in WEF, the World
Economic Forum, or the peoplethat attend that you know, all I
see is a denial of absolutetruth, right?
So, truth is, whatever I want itto be.

(35:59):
And power, right.
So if you can get the powerfinancially, politically, to
impose your will on others,you'll do that.
And he's saying that's that Idon't want to live in that kind
of world, right.

So I want to live in a world where it's
all good things, but it doesn'tif it doesn't actually change
your heart, and I know we'veseen this in and again.
This isn't a criticism ofanybody, this is just the
reality.
We've seen it in life withincredible Christian leaders who
at some point end up stumbling,and I'm not talking about sin,
but just in the sense of theyget disillusioned and I go with

(36:32):
some point.
There was not that personalhook in their heart that was I'm
a slave to Christ, no matterwhat I mean.
I remember my own life hittinga couple really tough periods of
my life where I knew theprinciples and there's a level
you do the principle, I knew theprinciples, and there's a level
you do the principles and theprinciples work.
But also we live in a fallenworld, so there's times where it

(36:52):
appears that the principlesaren't working quote unquote
because these bad things happen,but it's because it's a fallen
world and people have free will,right.

Yeah, and at the end of the day, we don't worship
principles, right, we worship.
He's a real person, he is theway the truth and the life.

Truth is a person.
That's right and that's what wehave to have the hook in our
hearts.
Otherwise, all of us could besubject to straying or being
disillusioned or what have you.
And that's really what it comesdown to right.

Yeah, and even Jordan Peterson of late, like
you say he's saying.
You know, even Jordan Petersonof late, like you say he's
saying.
You know, when I look at theworld that the worldview of, say
, your average you know,participant in WEF, the World
Economic Forum, or the peoplethat attend that you know, all I
see is a denial of absolutetruth.

(37:44):
Right.
So, truth is, whatever I want itto be, and power right.
So if you can get the powerfinancially, politically, to
impose your will on others,you'll do that.
And he's saying I don't want,don't want to live in that kind
of world.
So I want to live in a worldwhere I see this, this, you know
, and I've heard him speak aboutthis to this dynamic of servant

(38:06):
, like you say, servantleadership, or just this ability
of somebody to sacrifice forthe good of another right which
runs right through the biblicalnarrative, of course, the life
of Jesus himself.
But you know, to me, again, justthat alone, just this idea of
self-sacrificing, it has adeeper root.
Right, it's rooted in love, youknow, agape, which is rooted in

(38:29):
God's very character.
Right, you know you have tokeep pushing back these things.
They're good, Like you need asociety where people are willing
to sacrifice for the good ofanother, especially authorities,
for the good of those that areunder their authority.
He's right, and thank God.
We live in a world where,that's true, it's not just all
power and dominion, even thoughthat's real in a fallen world,
you know.

(38:50):
But but it's, you know, it'slike that.
You only get that if God isreal, and God is a God of love
and at his very core is agape.

Right.

That's where that comes from.

Right, and it goes back to who we really
believe God is and the nature ofGod.
We talked about this on theother podcast, actually from my
little worldview book, becauseit talks about that a bit of
getting into.
It's not just that you believein God, but what kind of God do
you believe in and who is thisGod and what does he?
You know, what is he like, andthat that really does.
That really does matter.

(39:22):
But again, I'm grateful thatthey're opening up these
conversations because they are.
It is reaching some people thatI don't know would have been
reached in the, you know mightnot have been reached in a
different circumstance,absolutely, and I, I, I agree
with that.

I think it's exciting when people come to the
point of going you know freedom, we wouldn't even have freedom
or concepts like objective truthwithout the Bible.
That's pretty exciting, right?
Well, some people don't realizethey're actually biblical
concepts.

That's what's crazy.
The accusation of so many likeyou know that just understand
this is all rooted here.
I mean I love that's where youget excited, you know, get into,
obviously the scripture and thehistory and hermeneutics and I
mean it all has its proof,that's there.
But again, of course,ultimately we've still got to
have the revelation of the HolySpirit.

But I've often had this thought as I think about
Ark.
I think you know the one thingthat the evangelical church in
the West gets is that you need aliving and vital relationship
with Jesus Christ, and they'vemade the gospel very.
I've often had this thought asI think about Ark.
I think you know the one thingthat the evangelical church in
the West gets is that you need aliving and vital relationship

(40:28):
with Jesus Christ, and they'vemade the gospel very central,
which is good, right.
So you need to accept.
You know that God exists, thatyou're a sinner and apart from
Christ.
You know you will be eternallyseparated from God, you know.
So they've kept that living andvital relationship very central
.
Now again, ark isn't coming atit from that angle.

(40:51):
They're coming at it from thesebiblical principles.
This biblical narrative createsa really healthy and
flourishing civilization, andthat's the part that the
evangelical church kind offorgotten.
So, in other words, they bothhave something that they kind of
need.
It seems like, if you could getthese two groups together and,
like you're saying, maybe theyare there together at the
conference, that could be prettypowerful.
Like the Ark people couldremind evangelicals that, hey,

(41:13):
we have something that isactually that goes beyond
personal salvation and createshealthy, thriving nations.
Like we've kind of forgottenthat we need to disciple
Christians to live out thoseprinciples and to be faithful in
building healthy families andcivilizations.
That's part of our faith.
Yes, the other side, theevangelicals, could remind the
arch people that, yeah, but allthose things that are going to

(41:35):
create healthy, flourishingcivilizations have to be rooted
in a regenerated heart and aworship of the living God, yeah.

Luke Allen (41:43):
Yeah, that's.
I mean, I just think of youknow, worship the Lord with all
your heart, soul, mind andstrength.
Your heart needs to be invested.
I just think of you know,worship the Lord with all your
heart, soul, mind and strength.
Your, I just think of you know,worship the Lord with all your
heart, soul, mind and strength.
Your heart needs to be invested.
You need to love God, becauseGod loves you and he wants to be
in a loving relationship withyou, but also with your mind.
You know this shouldintellectually make sense to us.

(42:05):
We can chase after the truth.
We have the ability to do that.
We can wrestle with the truth.
I think sometimes I've heardthis last week as a critique of
people in the christianworldview space is they become
too intellectual.
I don't know if I totallyagreed with this, but it's too
much the you know principles andpractices and policies and that

(42:25):
that if you do this, your, yourcommunity, will flourish.
Bing bang, bow right.
Yes, sometimes you know, likein Proverbs, there's wisdom
there, god's ways work.
Yes, but we also need to justlove God and be in that
relationship with him, just thephileo love.

(42:47):
Or is that the right one?
The phileo love.
Or is that the right one?
Yeah, with God.
So yeah, it's both.
And um, you guys probably heardthis quote from jordan peterson
too, but he, he once said um,when talking about the bible,
it's not that the bible is true,it's that the bible is the
prerequisite of themanifestation of truth, which

(43:09):
makes it far more true than justtruth.
So he says it, you know, butdoes he believe it?
Has he become it?
Does he love it?
You know, and and and that'skind of where I'm questioning,
um, oz Guinness once.
Oz Guinness once said, whentalking about the truth, either
we can form our desires to thetruth or we can form the truth

(43:29):
to our desires.
Um, and I, I hear a lot ofthese people talking.
They remind me of Thomas Paineor Thomas Jefferson, who
understood that God's ways forgovernment, or for human life,
or what freedom is they work?

But I don't know that they and are essential,
like you really need those ideasif you're going to have a free
society.
Yeah, they understood that.

Luke Allen (43:51):
Yeah, but I don't know if they can form their
desires to the truth yet, no,exactly.
Bow the knee.
I appreciate what.
Yeah, they understood that.
Yeah, but I don't know if theycan form their desires to the
truth yet Exactly.

I appreciate what you bring up
there, though I think isinteresting because it connects,
kind of these two differentthings you're talking about with
some of those in the apologeticspace of a strong emphasis of
the ideas and the principles,and to me that also, which,
again, that's good, we want toknow those things, that's good,
we want to know those things.
But to me it connects to,though, sometimes, that lack of
heart.
To me it connects to, though,sometimes, that lack of heart of

(44:19):
remembering that we actuallyare dealing with people, not
just ideas, and to me that thatconnects also the thing you're
saying, even with the whatyou're saying with Dr Jordan
Peterson, with others who maybethey connect with the principles
, but they're missing the person, right.
And so I think we can do thatas believers sometimes, where we
, we, we know these things workand I'm going to give you my, my

(44:46):
steps and I'm going to.
I can destroy you in anapologetics debate, but but, but
there's a person that I'mtalking to, about this, and I
just think about that too, andhow we relate also to the Lord.
There's all these principles,but there's a person that they
are connected with.

Absolutely, and I think we've got to remember that
and not just any person thecreator of the universe, the one
who created you, and the onlyproper relationship to that kind
of person is is is a worshipfulrelationship.
It's a bowing of the knee and aand a complete surrender of the
knee and a complete surrender,you know yes.

Yeah, and likewise or you know, and
likewise, or maybe not likewise,but and to that end you know we
have, you know, love the Lord,your God, with all your heart
and then love your neighbor asyourself.
We've got to remember that toowhen we're engaging and we're
talking about other people, whenwe're engaging apologetics,
when we're having, you know,some of those discussions that

(45:35):
there is still a person therethat we're engaging with that is
a child of God, that is.
You know that it was created inhis image and so it's
interesting because I thinkagain, there's that bull's-hand,
I guess, on these things.

But it comes out, yeah, the person of Christ.
But it comes out, yeah, theperson of Christ, the
non-believer.
The person of Christ and people, yeah, catherine, who's found
the goodness of the biblicalprinciples.
Let's say, you know humandignity or whatever it is.
Or you know there is anobjective truth of things.
You can't just be a man or awoman at will.
You know there's an objectivetruth to these things.

(46:07):
You know they're on a journey,right?
I mean, that's the work of theHoly Spirit in their life, right
?
You don't move in the directionof truth without the work of
the and the help of the HolySpirit.
So I really agree with that.

Yeah, yeah, and that that's a quote I know
you guys have heard me saybefore other times, but I don't
know who it's attributed to.
But for other times, but Idon't know who it's attributed
to, but you know, anything youcan be argued into, you can be
argued out of.
So again, it's like it's thisbalance, because we want these
principles are good, they work,we want people to know them, but
ultimately, again, you know, itcomes down to conviction, not

(46:37):
just convincing.

Luke Allen (46:43):
And so remembering that with people, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
Yeah, this is a little offtrack, but I heard once that the
two, the two greatestmotivating factors for any human
is either fear that's probablythe most or love, and um,
ideally it's love.
Um, what I'm hearing for a lotof these people coming out of
arc is it's a little, a littlebit fearful, a little
reactionary.

It's a little bit the world's crumbling well, or
just fearful of the wef, youknow, in the direction that it's
taking the world right.

Luke Allen (47:09):
Yeah, yeah I mean, there's a lot to be fearful of
right now that's right but Iwant to say, I want to say in
response to that like sure, Itotally agree, I my eyes are
wide open, but, um, is theresomething that we can run
towards and not just somethingwe can run away here?
Is there love that we can runtowards?
uh, and that's the kind ofmotivating, the motivating
factor that actually issustainable, actually can write

(47:30):
us somewhere right, because ifyou just run away from something
, that reactionary kind ofpendulum swing we've seen
throughout history, not ideal.
Um, I do think this group isgoing in the right direction,
from from what I hear from.
I listened to a lot of thetalks at the conference and um,
just uh, peterson's openingspeech.
I was listening to theconference and um, just uh,
peterson's opening speech.

(47:51):
I was listening to that thismorning and he essentially boils
the whole opening speech.
I was listening to that thismorning and he essentially boils
the whole, like he's what is hehe?
uses always such fancy language,like the motivating driving
factor that you know inhabits usor something, um, and he just
boiled it down to, like you weresaying, the servant leadership,
um, spirit of sacrifice, spiritof sacrifice and what that

(48:11):
looks like, and that is that'sspot on.
You know, that's, that's whatwe need to be pushing towards
and that's been his real call toarms since the beginning.
Is calling young men to aspirit of sacrifice,
self-sacrifice, voluntaryself-sacrifice for the good of
another.

Which is agape love , right.
When I hear him speak that way,I'm like you're completely
correct, but where does thatcome from?
When I hear him speak that way,I'm like you're completely
correct, but where does thatcome from?
You know again this.
you don't just generate a spiritof self-sacrifice, especially
in a fallen world, like it'sjust not natural To me.
It comes from one place, andone place only.
It comes from the very heart ofGod himself who does that, and

(48:49):
he does that for us right.
And so it is rooted in thatlove.
You know, for God so loved theworld, for God so loved you,
Catherine, that he laid down hislife for you, that gives me
some motivation to follow in hisfootsteps.
You see what I'm saying, Notjust I like that idea of
self-sacrifice for the good ofothers, like that's really
important for a healthy society.

(49:09):
So I'm going to sacrificemyself for the good of others,
okay, but we do see people do it, though that don't know the
Lord, but again, I think it'snot necessarily sustainable, I
think there's maybe the Lordworking through them.

You know the Lord has used people that
way before, so the Lord workingthrough them or you know
wherever they're in theirjourney, but we know it's not
sustainable if you don't haveChrist.
So that's again the importancethere.
But I do want to say inparticular about Dr Jordan.
Again, you know, because I'vemet him now several times, he

(49:41):
really is a man of fromeverything I've seen, a real man
of integrity, he is a seekerand just hey, let's pray for him
guys, because I just we allknow the difference of you can
understand all these things, andthen the difference of when you
actually meet the person ofJesus, what that does, and I'm
just excited for him when hedoes, because it's you know, I
just am so grateful for him, I'mso grateful for his voice.
Yeah, he really is being used ofthe Lord, for sure.

Oh yeah, no, it's, it's, it's really it's very
powerful.
You know, he, he sees withclear eyes, the, the, the beauty
and the importance of, of thistrue biblical story.
You know so.

And his wife is lovely.
I was telling Luke too.
You know she's had a whole.
She's Catholic and she had awhole renaissance in her faith
from really a near-deathexperience that she shared about
in some of her podcasts andthings where a very, very
serious diagnosis was supposedto, you know, was given months
to live, and you know herrenaissance of faith really with

(50:35):
the coming to the Lord again.
And you know her renaissance offaith really with the coming to
the Lord again.
I think I can't remember whenshe was younger if she'd known
him, but she's had a verypowerful conversion there and
she's on her own journey thatway too.
And I got to actually be on herpodcast.
She asked me to film with herwhen I was in London, so I'm
looking forward to it and shegave me carte blanche to talk
about the ministry and talkabout worldview and all those

(50:58):
things and so that's exciting,yeah it was really neat.
And she actually she and DrJordan both have my book.
It's funny the podcast.
She was like I'm sorry Ihaven't had a chance to read it
yet.
I'm like, well, whenever youcan.
Oh, that's so neat.
But they're really a neat.
They're a neat couple.
The Lord is totally using them.

(51:22):
They're very genuine, veryintegrous and, um yeah, so it's
going to be interesting to seecontinue to see what the lord
does, and, of course, they'resurrounded by a lot of believers
.

So well, yeah, I noticed that they have their
board of advisors or trustees orsomething and, like you say,
katie faust is on that board.
I just learned that recentlyshe's a one on fire born
believing lady, I'll tell you,who doesn't?

She's a feisty one.
I love Katie.
No, me too.

But she's, she's, she's a really you know, she's a
true, genuine believer in Jesus.
So yeah.
Anyways, luke, what otherquestions do you have?
It's just Catherine, thanks.
It's for Luke and I.
We've been so excited to justtalk with you because we've kind
of seen this from the outside.
But you had that wonderfulexperience of being on the
inside with this a couple timesnow, so we're excited.

(52:03):
I'm excited about what I'mseeing here, you know and just
kind of what's God doing?
So it's great to talk with you.

Luke Allen (52:09):
Yeah, it is exciting .
I just wanted to circle back towhat you were saying earlier,
dad, about how we all live, instories, um, or beliefs, or we
all have a way of life you know,there's multiple ways to
describe this.

But a worldview, you know, but a story, I think.
But they actually are stories,if you will.
They are in the sense thatthere's characters and there's a
plot and you know, they've gotthe elements of stories, you
know where do we start, whereare we going?

Luke Allen (52:33):
yeah, yeah it's yeah , um, and I, as far as I know
from this conference and thismovement, they're trying to
start.
They're trying to paint thepicture for a better story for
Western civilization, either onethat grounds it back to its
roots, more so, or just a betterone for the future era seems

(52:57):
like it's coming to a wrap, youknow, and post-modernism
obviously came on the heels ofmodernism and then that on the
heels of pre-modernism andthat's pretty much all of
history since christ summed upin those three big historic time
periods.
If post-modernism is wrappingup, what's next?
What is the better story?
You know what, what, what mightbe, uh, you know, on the very
verge of um, it's an excitingthought.
I've heard a lot of greatthoughts coming out of the ARC

(53:20):
conference and out of thosespeakers.
Any thoughts from you?
What were you hearing?
What are your thoughts?
As Christians, we obviouslyknow the better story.
God's given it to us veryclearly in scriptures.
So how can we convey that inthis, this, uh, this moment?

I think it was definitely hopeful just
seeing more and again honestlygoing back to our kind of our
kingdom conversation earlier ofjust seeing the broader church
community engaging in really theculture on another level that
it has to happen, and I think Isaw a lot of people uh, or being
encouraged that it's beingpushed to the forefront that way

(53:59):
.
That again and we know this, butyou know, church isn't just for
Sunday morning that theseprinciples are run throughout
society.
They actually help governmentfunction better.
They actually help education,trade, tariffs, all the
different things actually applyto these biblical principles.
So I saw a lot of hope that way.
I'll say too, on a kind of afun personal side and I've heard
this from others you know therewere a lot of people there that

(54:20):
I ran into or talk with thatyou know the administrative
workforce founded by my fatherright, they knew my dad 20 years
ago, 30 years ago, and justseeing some of the relational
ties, the shared spiritual rootsthat are still there, I feel
like the Lord has been kind ofstirring up the shared spiritual
roots that are still there.
I feel like the Lord has beenkind of stirring up, stirring up

(54:42):
the roots that way and I've hadthat happen repeatedly in
different circles that I didn'teven know had connection to one
another, some of the sharedspiritual roots, and so that's
exciting again with people thatI there was quite a few people
there I met that I didn'trealize were friend of friends
you know, or knew my father 20years ago, or knew you know
whoever you know 10 years ago,and so seeing, I feel like the
Lord has been knitting, knittingmore hearts and knitting more

(55:03):
organizations together.
We've definitely been divided,maybe not even purposely, I
think you know enemies allowedit, the spirit of the age,
everything's going on, busyness,all those things, but
definitely seeing a more of aheart for collaboration and
camaraderie at the event, that Ireally, really appreciated and
again, I think that was one oftheir goals.
So that's encouraging and Iwould encourage people with that

(55:26):
camaraderie of people reallycoming together and seeing kind
of shaking the dust off in someareas and realizing, hey,
there's still more here, let'sengage.
So that's definitelyencouraging and that's what I
would encourage listeners tothink of too.
Of you know, where have you,where have you sown in and where
does where does God want you tocontinue to sow or to bring

(55:46):
back things, maybe, that youused to used to do?
We had.
We had one actually.
Just recently we had a studentcome back around, because we
have our online schools andcohorts Someone who had done our
courses 20 years ago anddropped out and said God told me
to go back to my roots.
And so now, 20 years later, here-enrolled in one of our

(56:06):
courses.
And I say that just to say Ithink that's engaged, so that's
definitely encouraging andthat's what I would encourage
listeners to think of too of youknow, where have you, where
have you sown in?
Um, and where does where?
Does God want you to continueto sow or to bring back things,
maybe, that you used to used todo?
We had, we had one actually.
Uh, just recently we had astudent come back around, cause

(56:29):
we have our our online schoolsand cohorts someone who had done
our courses 20 years ago anddropped out and said God told me
to go back to my roots, and sonow, 20 years later, he
re-enrolled in one of ourcourses.
And I say that just to say Ithink that's happening in a lot
of places, and not just ourministries other ministries,
other places where it's likewe're getting called back to

(56:51):
those roots or things that we'vesewn into, or people that we
knew 10 years ago, and again Isaw this at ARC like people who
hadn't talked for 20 years saweach other again at ARC and just
where, where's God in that?
Cause?
You know he's a God ofcommunity, he's a God of roots,
you know our foundations.
So I find that exciting and Iencourage all of our listeners
to think that way too, cause I'mjust seeing that across the

(57:12):
board, not just at ARC but atother places where I mean I keep
having divine appointmentconversations with people that
it turns out again we knew oneanother 10 years ago, or this
person or that person.
I just think God's moving inthat way and that's exciting
because he's a God ofrelationship.
You know, we always say Godbuilds relationally and getting
those connections and then, youknow, going into the ancient

(57:33):
foundations, right.
Yeah yeah, no.

I feel like Aslan's on the prowl right now I do
feel like there's something'shappening, and it's kind of
unexpected in the sense that Igo back, you know, to 2020, the
end of COVID and it seemed likeit was such a dark time, you
know, and the kind of the forcesof this cultural Marxist idea,

(57:58):
the World Economic Forum therewas just an ascendancy to all
that and almost a sense of likeinevitability, you know, like
this is just what you know.
And where's the church?
The church isn't speaking out.
You know, the leaders are kindof compromised.
And then, lo and behold, you getthese people that are even
outside the church, like JordanPeterson, taking stands,
courageous stands against that,you know, standing up for free

(58:20):
speech and the dignity of theindividual, and other people
starting to follow him.
And now you've got ARC, youknow, and this is this
combination of Christians,born-again Christians as well as
people that are looking forthat story that makes sense of
human dignity and freedom andfamily and these kinds of things
.
And so, yeah, I didn't expectany of that you know, and here

(58:41):
we are.

You know it's happening.

So, yeah, so I think I guess what let's all be
praying and available to see howGod wants to be using us right
now, in this moment, right, andI think too, like you were
saying, Catherine, welcoming andgracious to people that are
still kind of on a journey ofseeking God's working.
God is working in their lives,and we have things to learn too.

(59:06):
This is the thing I think a lotof evangelicals can learn a lot
from them.
They're reminding us that whatthe Bible brings, this story,
the principles, the truths, thedefinitions.
That's my new book, right, theTen Words book, the definitions
of words like human andauthority, and marriage and sex.
These build flourishing culturesright, and when we live them

(59:28):
out, we have to be reminded ofthat we kind of forgot that the
evangelical church is kind ofstuck in this cubbyhole of
eschatology, it's like yeah.
Jesus is coming back.
That's all I'm interested in.
I don't care what happens tothis world, and the sooner he
comes back the better you know,and I'm like oh no, I mean, he
is coming back.
right, he is coming back, butbut you know, whether he comes

(59:49):
back tomorrow or, you know, in10 years or a hundred years we
have to be faithfully living outthe truth and building healthy
cultures now right Like that's.

That's called obedience.

Yeah, exactly so well, to that end.
Thank you, Catherine, for allthat you guys are doing at Go
Strategic to bring that about,you know, and just the training
that you offer.
Do you want to say anythingabout that?
You mentioned your cohorts andyour training, and why don't you
go ahead and talk a little bitabout that and how people can
access that?

Katherine Gallagher (01:00:15):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, we do.
We have three schools.
I hesitate to use the termschool because I feel like it
doesn't really encapsulate whatit is, but it's the closest to
it.
But it's basically a smallgroup, a cohort that you join
for 18 months to two years.
So it is a big.
It's a big buy-in, but it isreally an incredible opportunity
to connect with people from allover the world.

(01:00:36):
In these online cohorts.
They meet twice a month and yougo through curriculum that we
have and we have some of ourrequired reading will be
familiar to the listeners.
We have a few of DarrellMiller's books and Landa Cope
and, of course, we're definitelyrecommending Scott's books.
But we have a core curriculumand then we have additional
reading and we dive into threeareas.

(01:01:01):
We have one on worldview andleadership called the School of
Strategic Living, one onbusiness economics called the
School of Business Leadershipand our latest one around public
policy and communitydevelopment called the School of
Kingdom Citizenship.
And the School of KingdomCitizenship really connects to
what we're just talking abouthere again of the reality that
we're dual citizens.
You know, we are citizens ofheaven, but we are still
citizens on earth and we have acalling to really make a
difference here in everyjurisdiction and sphere.
So three online courses you cancheck them out at

(01:01:23):
gostrategicorg slash schools andthey're a wonderful opportunity
for training and meeting withothers really around the world.
And then we provide otherongoing connections for our
alumni and really it's the waythat we've I've other ongoing
connections for our alumni andreally it's the way that we've
met so many incredible peoplethrough those courses.
It's a, it's a real gift.

Scott Allen (01:01:42):
So, thank you, that's great.
Well, check it out.
Go strategic dot org and seeall that this organization has
to offer.
And, catherine, thank you foryour leadership.
You're doing such a great job.
I'm impressed with just the waythat you are.
You are a very intentionalnetworker and I appreciate that

(01:02:03):
I love to do that.

Yes, it's wonderful to connect the people
to one another.
So, yeah, my pleasure.
Thank you for having me verymuch.

Always a joy to be with you both, and again, thank
you for putting us in the room alittle bit with the ARC
conference and giving us yourperspectives on that.
That's been really helpful and,yeah, we really appreciate that
.
Luke any final thoughts fromyou as we wrap up.

Luke Allen (01:02:25):
No, I love the call to collaboration and working
together, and a house dividedagainst itself can't stand.
So as a church, we should seekfor common.
We should, uh, seek for, yeah,common goals right now.

That's great Amen.

All right.
Well, catherine, thanks againfor being with us today and um,
lord bless you and your ministry.
And um uh, to all of ourlisteners who are faithfully
tuning into this podcast.
We are appreciative for you.
Um, continue to let otherpeople that you know know about
the podcast.
Share it with their friends.
That helps us.
And again, thank you forlistening to another episode of

(01:03:00):
Ideas have Consequences, thepodcast of the Disciple Nations
Alliance.

Luke Allen (01:03:07):
Thank you for joining us for this discussion
with Catherine Gallagher fromover at Go Strategic.
As always, for more informationabout our guest and to find all
of the resources that wementioned during today's
discussion, and more, pleasevisit this episode's landing
page, which you'll see linked inthe show notes.
As a quick heads up, don't missour next few episodes, because
we have some fascinating new andreturning guests about to come

(01:03:32):
on the show, including Dr GeorgeBarna from the Cultural
Research Center, dr Jeff Myersfrom Summit Ministries and your
favorite, at least according tothe episode listenership Vishal
Mangawati, who was one of thefounding minds behind this
ministry, disciple NationsAlliance.
So again, stay tuned for thoseepisodes.
An easy way to make sure thatyou don't miss them is by

(01:03:54):
following this show on ApplePodcasts, on Spotify or wherever
you're listening right now.
Thanks again for listening totoday's discussion with
Katherine Gallagher and we hopethat you're able to join us
again next week here on Ideashave Consequences.
Thank you.

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Principles Work, But They Need The Cornerstone | Katherine Gallagher’s Take on ARC

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Principles Work, But They Need The Cornerstone | Katherine Gallagher’s Take on ARC