June 3, 2025 • 54 mins
Addressing abortion starts with discipleship, not legislation. In this powerful conversation, Roland Warren, President of Care Net and author of The Alternative to Abortion, challenges Christians to move beyond politics and embrace a “pro-abundant life” perspective rooted in John 10:10. Drawing from his own story of an unplanned college pregnancy turned 43-year marriage, Roland reframes abortion as a discipleship issue—calling the Church to support not just life, but lives transformed by the Gospel. He shares practical ways churches can respond with compassion, healing, and hope to those facing pregnancy decisions.
Main Topics:
- From Pro-Life to Pro-Abundant Life – Why saving babies isn’t enough without also making disciples
- Shocking Church Statistics – 54% of abortion seekers identify as Christians
- Ministry, Not Politics – How small groups and churches can become safe, healing places
- Mary, Joseph & Making Life Disciples – Biblical models for gospel-centered care
If abortion is happening in our churches, what kind of gospel are we really preaching?
- Make a matching gift donation by June 10!
- View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!
- Free Grand Design Video Course from DNA: Male and Female in the Image of God
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Roland C. Warren (00:03):
54% of the women that have abortions
profess to be Catholic orProtestant and we did a national
survey.
We found that four out of 10women having abortions and five
out of 10 men that participatein abortions were attending
church at least monthly at thetime of their first abortion.
So if you don't have a ministryin your church for someone who
wakes up Sunday morning andtakes a pregnancy test and the
test is positive but they thinkthe news is negative, then
(00:25):
Planned Parenthood and anabortion provider looks like a
compassionate alternative to thechurch.
Luke Allen (00:38):
Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world, to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.
(00:58):
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.
Scott D. Allen (01:17):
Well, welcome again everyone to another
episode of Ideas haveConsequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen, I'm thepresident of the DNA and I'm
joined today by my co-workersJohn Bottimore and Luke Allen.
Guys, great to be with youagain.
Thank you, good to be here, andtoday we're thrilled to have a
(01:40):
very distinguished guest, rolandWarren.
Roland is the president and theCEO of Care Net and, for those
of you who aren't familiar withCare Net, it supports one of the
largest networks of pregnancycenters in North America, has
1,200 affiliates, over 30,000volunteers.
(02:03):
So when we think of pro-life,supporting the pro-life movement
and cause in very practical,hands-on way ways, we think of
crisis pregnancy centers andCare Net.
Roland is the president.
He is also author of a brandnew book Well, it came out in
2024 titled the Alternative toAbortion why we Must Be
(02:28):
Pro-Abundant Life and we'regoing to get into that.
Your credentials are prettyamazing.
He's a graduate of PrincetonUniversity and the Wharton
School of Business at theUniversity of Pennsylvania Just
a couple of small schools youmight have heard of.
He is a servant leader with aheart for Christ and a mind for
(02:50):
business.
He had 20 years in thecorporate world with IBM, with
Pepsi and a small company calledGoldman Sachs, and then he
spent 11 years as the presidentof the National Fatherhood
Initiative before joining CareNet in 2012.
And I'd like to talk to you alittle bit about that as well,
roland.
(03:10):
You know he is a national mediafigure.
He's been on shows like theOprah Winfrey Show, the Today
Show, cnn and, of course, themost famous of them.
All Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Roland C. Warren (03:26):
Right, boom, right, yeah, never again.
Scott D. Allen (03:31):
Right, exactly exactly.
You've reached the pinnaclewhen it comes to media, so we're
thrilled, Honestly.
Roland, thank you so much fortaking time to be with us today.
We're grateful.
Roland C. Warren (03:41):
Oh, great to be with you.
Thanks so much for yourinterest.
Scott D. Allen (03:43):
Oh well, listen, we want to dive into your book,
but before that I really wantto hear just a little bit about
you.
I'll tell you.
It's funny, I was telling theguys before the podcast.
I'm surprised I'd not heard ofyou before with this kind of
background.
But I did read one of yourarticles last week.
It came across my path and Iread it and again, I didn't even
(04:06):
know we were going to have thepodcast with you this week and
you were writing about thedesperate need that we have to
disciple young fathers in ourchurches and I just was so
violently in agreement with whatyou were saying and I thought I
just kept the article and Ithought I've got to reach out to
this guy.
And then Luke says, oh, we'regoing to have him on our podcast
.
So anyways, but I'd love tohear just a little bit of your
(04:31):
backstory, given the fact thatyou have this very distinguished
educational background, workbackground.
You know, when I think ofPrinceton University, for
example, I often think of verycommitted black Christian men
who are pro-life.
There must be, you knowmillions of them.
Roland C. Warren (04:48):
Yeah, we just tripped over each other on
campus.
It was crazy.
Scott D. Allen (04:54):
Yeah, yeah, tell us about yeah, how did you?
How did you just?
Yeah, where do you come from?
Just a little bit of your storyand how you ended up in such,
you know, incredibly prestigiousplaces like that and doing what
you're doing now.
Roland C. Warren (05:05):
Yeah, no, thank you.
Thank you very much.
I appreciate that, scott.
Yeah, I, you know, from aPrinceton standpoint, I mean a
lot of that in terms of myissues around the issue around
life and and you know theperspective I have that lay out
in the book why we must be proabundant life, the alternative
to abortion.
A lot of it came from,basically, my start at Princeton
.
I was an undergraduate, myjunior year at Princeton and I
(05:32):
got my girlfriend pregnant.
So she was a sophomore, I was ajunior and we were facing an
unplanned pregnancy and she wentto student health services to
get the pregnancy test and thenurse came back, delivered the
test, said it's positive,without taking an extra gulp of
air, said now, of course you'regoing to have an abortion.
My girlfriend and my wife of 43years punchline, said no, no, I
(05:53):
want to get married, I'm goingto have my baby.
And the nurse said my gosh, howare you going to graduate from
Princeton with a baby?
What do you want to do?
Well, I want to become a doctor.
She says well, I want to becomea doctor.
She says well, how are yougoing to become a doctor with a
baby?
It didn't seem like it made alot of sense.
And so I kind of imagined thatshe came back to the dorm and we
sort of talked about it in mykind of 20 year old way, you
know.
We both said, hey look, we'regoing to get married.
(06:13):
And so we did.
So I was 19.
She was 20.
We got married by the justiceof the peace, with four students
with us, and you know we'vebeen now married 43 years, as of
May 1st.
So you know, at the time Iwasn't, you know, I wouldn't
call myself a pro-life advocateor anything like that.
I hadn't, frankly, even thoughtvery deeply about the issue at
20.
But we were faced with this,you know, pregnancy center,
(06:36):
excuse me, this pregnancydecision in that moment, and it
really informed how I thinkabout the issue now.
And it really informed how Ithink about the issue now.
I mean, god used thatperspective of what happened
there to really give me aframework that sort of
transitioned you from thinkingabout the issue as a pro-life
issue to thinking about it aspro-abundant life, and I can
kind of talk more about that.
But that's kind of where thegenesis is.
(06:58):
But anyway, so we went on andhad our son.
She actually had both of ourkids, both of our boys, rather
at Princeton.
She had our second one about amonth or so before she graduated
, so she had to deliver herthesis and she delivered our son
.
They're both on time.
And then our older son went onto go to Harvard and you know as
the kid they wanted us to kindof get rid of.
(07:19):
You know this kind of guy he is.
So it just really showed us inthat moment that you know that
often, you know, when we seelife we don't see clearly.
You know saying that's outthere, not original, me for sure
.
But you know anybody can countthe number of apple seeds in an
apple, but only God knows thenumber of apples in a single
seed.
So we just don't understand,you know that.
(07:42):
And what we see in the futurewe don't really see.
We don't have that ability todo that.
And finally, I would say I havethis one picture I just love of
my wife holding ourgranddaughter who's through the
sun.
We were supposed to abort andmy wife is no longer 19.
And it's this amazing pictureof her and just the joy on her
face holding our granddaughterwho's, you know, just a little
(08:02):
under a year at the time.
It's just an amazing picture ofher and just the joy on her
face holding our granddaughterwho's you know just a little
under a year at the time.
Just an amazing picture, and Itell people all the time that
you know my wife couldn't seethat picture when she was 19,.
But God did, god did, and sopart of the reason I'm in this
work is trying to help peoplehave the trust that God has a
picture, has a future for you,has a perspective for you, right
(08:22):
, has a portrait of you in thefuture when you include him.
That's very different than theone that you may think that
you're going to have when you'remaking the pregnancy decision.
Scott D. Allen (08:31):
That's super powerful.
Did you grow up in a Christianhome, Roland?
Roland C. Warren (08:35):
Yeah, I mean I grew up I mean I was, you know,
I grew up in the black churchand my I would say we're
Christian in the sense it waskind of a cultural thing, but it
wasn't necessarily, you know, agospel focused home.
I would say my mom made surethat we went to church, but she
actually didn't go to churchwith us, so it wasn't from that
perspective, but the church hadan enormous impact on.
(08:56):
The church, had an enormousimpact on how I viewed life.
And really, you know, I tellpeople all the time that I grew
up in a single mother home andyou know, my mother got pregnant
the first time when she was 16,16, 17, had me when she was 19.
By the time she was 23, you knowshe'd gotten married to my
father and then, you know,things kind of frayed there and
(09:18):
then by the time she was 23, shehad four kids under the age of
eight and my father was gone.
So you know, the saving gracefor me was that I went to church
and that I saw men beinghusbands and fathers in my
church.
As a little black boy growingup in Toledo Ohio, I saw that.
So when I got my girlfriendpregnant, the thought of being a
baby daddy or some other kindof thing other than a husband
(09:39):
and a father wasn't reallysomething that was in my mix,
because that was modeled for mein the church and I had that
vision that certainly at thattime was a very important one to
have.
Scott D. Allen (09:49):
Wow, that's super powerful.
Well, tell us a little bitabout your new book.
The title again is theAlternative to Abortion why we
Must Be Pro-Abundant Life.
I'd like to hear just a littlebit of unpacking on both of
those sentences.
The alternative to abortionwhat is that, and what is pro
(10:12):
being pro-abundant life?
Obviously, I know what anabundant life means and what
that looks like, but what do youmean in this context, roland?
Roland C. Warren (10:19):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I'll start with the
second question first, becauseit kind of unpacks the first
thing.
But you know, when I firststarted in this work about 13
years ago, I started trying tounderstand.
You know what was the issue,and you know, and you know how
do you solve it.
What are you solving for, ifyou will?
And you know the pro-lifemovement, which is a movement
(10:40):
that's been around a long time,and I just started to think
about what was happening in themovement and how we were kind of
approaching the issue, theissue, and in a lot of ways it
was sort of like you know,imagine you're walking alongside
of a river or something likethat and there are babies in the
river and you know, oh my gosh,there are babies in the river
and you jump in and you starttaking babies out of the river,
right, and you know, gosh,there's more coming and there's
a waterfall and you're takingthem all out, as many as you can
(11:02):
, but you're missing a lot ofthem.
You signal to other folks theyget in, they're taking babies
out too, but you're stillmissing a lot.
Somewhere in the midst of allthat somebody should say how do
these babies get in the river tobegin with.
Even though you've got thisamazing baby taking out of the
river machine that you'vedeveloped, you're missing a lot
In the midst of that.
Somebody needs to get upstreamto say how did they get in the
(11:23):
river to begin with?
Because it's not a naturalplace for babies to be.
Well, I started to think aboutthe issue that way, which is
like getting upstream of how youthink about the issue, and so
as I started to think about andpray about that, god led me to
John 10, 10, where Christ saidyou know, it came that you might
have life and that lifeabundantly.
And when I started to unpackthat verse, what I realized was
(11:44):
that what Jesus is saying inthat moment and this is really
important because this isJesus's why statement, it's why
he came it's like this is why Icame that you might have life
and then have that lifeabundantly.
He's talking about two types oflife.
He's talking about physicallife, which is where we get the
word bios right.
Bios, rather, is the Greek forphysical life, where we get that
term physical life, if you will.
(12:05):
But he's also talking about zoe, which is a unique type of life
that only comes from arelationship with God.
So what he's essentially sayingis I came to link your bias to
my zoe that you might beheartbeats that are heaven bound
, and so when I thought aboutthat, I said my gosh, okay, wait
.
From a pro-life perspective, isthat what we're solving for?
Even that, I said my gosh, okay, wait.
From a pro-life perspective, isthat what we're solving for,
even as christians, heartbeatsthat are heaven bound?
(12:26):
I mean, you could be an atheistand be pro-life, but jesus is
saying that he's not justpro-life, he's pro-abundant life
, which means heartbeats thatare having bound.
And I started to look at themovement.
I said is that really whatwe're solving for?
Are we solving for heartbeatsthat are having bound?
We should be.
Well, gosh, I can't be pro-life, I have to be pro-abundant life
, not because I think so, butbecause Jesus was pro-abundant
(12:50):
life, and so that's how we gotthat framework and why Care Net
is not a pro-life organization.
We are a pro-abundant lifeministry because the focus of
our work is heartbeats that areheaven bound.
Right, because that's whatJesus did.
So when you start to look atthe issue that way, it changes
how you approach the issue.
In fact, it's a uniquelyChristian way of looking at the
(13:12):
life issue.
The other reason why that's soimportant is that you got to ask
yourself what does the termpro-life even mean anymore?
I mean, it really has lost itsmeaning, if you will, because
we've given that we gave theissue to the politics and it's
framed through a political lens.
And let me just say it more morespecifically.
Yes, a person say they'repro-life.
(13:33):
You say what do you mean bythat?
Well, one person says OK, I'mpro-life because I believe in a
model day, that children arecreating the image of God that
Genesis talks about, and thatthe circumstances of a child's
conception and birth should notdetermine its value, its
humanity and worth.
Whether you're conceived inlove or lust, planned unplanned,
whether you have fetalabnormality, it doesn't matter.
(13:53):
You are intrinsically of valuebecause you're connected to God.
That you're creating the imageof God, that's a pro-life guy.
Another guy says well, I'mpro-life too, and I'm for a
15-week ban.
Okay, well, how many abortionshappen before 15 weeks?
96%, okay.
So you're pro-life, but you'reokay with 96% of abortions?
Yes, okay.
What about you?
Well, I'm pro-life too.
(14:14):
I'm for a 20-week ban becausethat's when babies can feel pain
.
Around 20 weeks 99% Okay, andyou're pro-life too, right, all
y'all are pro-life.
Do you see the?
Problem.
We took an issue where there'san absolute and it's now on a
spectrum.
It's now on a spectrum.
(14:40):
So what I've been saying tofolks is we need to take this
issue.
It needs to be taken from thepodium and given back to the
pulpit, because a podium whichis the political lens of it,
primarily a podium doesn't haveany intrinsic perspective.
That's why when the presidentspeaks, they put a seal in front
of him.
It gives the podium a certaingravitas, a certain perspective.
Anybody can't run up and speakat the podium because it's got
(15:00):
the presidential seal.
And when the president leavesguess what they do?
They take the seal.
Then anybody can run up andtalk there.
Well, the pulpit has a certainseal too.
It's John 10, 10, why Christcame.
It's the great commandment,it's the great commission, all
these biblical narratives thatare the same yesterday, today
and forever.
The podium is not the sameyesterday, today and forever.
(15:20):
It changes.
Why?
Situationally.
So if you think about it thatway, if you take an issue that
by its very nature is a binaryissue, in other words, when you
think about the politics,essentially what you have is you
have two people who have aconviction, right, so you may
have a conviction on tax policy,this other person has a
conviction on tax policy, orthis one's an environmentalist,
(15:43):
this one's like big lumber,whatever.
And you come together in thepolitical process and you make a
compromise right.
That makes sense.
But if you have an issue likelife and you give it to a
process by its very nature,there's no room for compromise.
You actually find yourself inthe same dilemma that Solomon
was in when those two women cameand there was one baby and he
(16:06):
said well, why don't we justsplit the baby?
Now, he knew what he was doing.
There was wisdom there, and,and, and the woman who was for
righteousness and justice saidno, no, no, no.
You can't split the baby, giveit to her.
So if you take an issue likelife, like a baby, and you give
it to a process right, becauseSolomon in that sense was like a
political process that yousplit, you see what happens you
(16:27):
end up with injustice, you endup with sacrificing the
vulnerable.
So the people of the book, thepeople of the podium, may have
that perspective, but the peopleof the pulpit, which Solomon
transitioned to in terms of whathe was solving for, they
understand you can't spit thebaby, do you see?
(16:49):
So, from my perspective, beingpro-abundant life means that the
church and the Christians havea very specific way of looking
at the life issue and that thechurch leads on this issue with
the politics playing itsappropriate role.
But if you put the politics inthe role of solving for justice
and righteousness, you end upsplitting the baby, and that's
really what the problem is.
So that was the kind ofoverarching framework of the
difference, in my view, betweenbeing pro-life and being
(17:09):
pro-abundant life.
And I believe, as I said, jesuswasn't just pro-life, he was
pro-abundant life.
Why?
Because he said he was.
Scott D. Allen (17:16):
That's really powerful.
How does that translate intothe work of, specifically of
Care Net?
When I think of the crisispregnancy centers around the
country, including here in myown town, what does that mean
practically?
Roland C. Warren (17:30):
Yeah, practically, then, you kind of
think about it this way.
Let's say, imagine that Icreated a roof and it's a
pro-abundant life roof and youhave two pillars that hold that
roof up.
The first pillar is God'sdesign for family.
So, in terms of practice, whatyou do is that you're actually
modeling what you do based onthe most celebrated unplanned
pregnancy in human existence,which is the birth of Christ.
(17:52):
Right, I mean, jesus wasunplanned from a human
perspective.
Mary had hopes and dreams andaspirations for her life that
didn't include a child at thattime and in this way, right.
And then the angel comes to herand says listen, you're going
to conceive and bear a child.
And I'm sure Mary had all thisuncertainty swirling around in
her head.
You know what's Joseph going tosay, what's my family going to
(18:12):
say?
How am I going to take care ofthis baby?
All this uncertainty.
And she has a clarity in thatmoment to not focus on the
uncertainty of what she doesn'tknow.
She focuses on the certainty ofwhat she does.
There's a life growing insideof her and it's not a life worth
sacrificing, but a life worthsacrificing for right.
But what does God do to makesure that Mary's unplanned
pregnancy is not a crisispregnancy.
He didn't give her a baby daddyand a check.
(18:32):
He didn't give her a governmentworker and a check.
He gave her a husband for herand a father for the child born
inside of her.
He sent an angel to Joseph andJoseph had a plan and his plan
was to divorce her quietly, toput her away quietly, right, and
if you think about it back thenyou couldn't put the baby away
like we can today, so you putthe woman and the baby away.
So, essentially, joseph facedthe same dilemmas as any
(18:55):
abortion-minded man right Hopesand dreams for his life, and his
life with Mary that did notinclude a child at this time and
in this way.
And the angel comes to him andsays man with a plan, I got a
new plan for you, man.
It is this Husband to herfather, to the child growing
inside of her.
And when Jesus was at risk,mary was at risk because Herod
wanted to kill Jesus.
Guess what Came to Joseph,again providing to protect one
man, two missions husband to herfather, to the child growing
(19:17):
inside of her.
Now, how's that contemporary?
When my wife was facing thisunplanned pregnancy, she had the
same dilemma that Mary hadDifferent way of getting
pregnant, but practically thesame.
How's she going to tell herfamily?
How's she going to have herhopes and dreams?
How's she going to tell me Allof that?
What did she do?
She tapped into her inner Mary.
And then what did God call meto do?
Well, to tap into my innerJoseph.
(19:38):
So when there's an unplannedpregnancy, from a biblical
perspective, god creates afamily.
Is that what we've been doingfor 40 years?
Are we creating families?
Are we creating single motherhomes, which also lead to more
abortions and unplannedpregnancies?
Do you see?
So the first pillar is God'sdesign for family.
So that means the pregnancycenters that are affiliated with
(19:59):
Karen.
What we do is try to encouragethem.
No, you don't just reach her,you reach him and them.
And you reach them with amessage, a holistic message that
God has designed for them.
Now, why does that matter?
87% of the women that haveabortions are unmarried.
So when you de-link themarriage issue from the abortion
issue, guess what?
You get more abortions.
(20:20):
God didn't do that.
He linked the marriage issueand the life issue.
So in the story of Mary andJoseph, you see two sanctities
the sanctity of marriage andfamily and the sanctity of life.
And, by the way, the firstthing he told Joseph to do was
what?
Do not be afraid to take Maryas your wife.
He didn't even tell who Jesuswas.
So he prioritized the sanctityof marriage and family before
(20:42):
the sanctity of life, and that'show you get that.
So my view is, if you reallywant to solve the abortion issue
, the first pillar of that isreally God's design for family,
which means we have to have amovement that's actually
engaging men and calling men inthe same way that we're calling
women, if you will.
Now, let's say the guy's unableor unwilling to step into that
(21:03):
role.
Well then, that's the role ofthe church, right?
James 1.27 talks about religion, that God, our Father, finds it
true and faultless that we dowhat?
Care for the orphans and widowsin their distress.
What was an orphan when thatwas written?
It was a child without a father, and what was a widow?
It was a child without a father.
(21:26):
And what was a widow?
It was a mother without ahusband.
So the church has a veryspecific role to play if the guy
is unwilling to tap into hisinner Joseph in order to support
her, tapping into her innerMary, which means that second
pillar is God's call todiscipleship.
In other words, you see thisissue as a discipleship issue,
not just as a political issue.
So you look at a woman facingan unplanned pregnancy and you
say your first thought's not whodo I need to vote for so she
(21:46):
can't have the abortion right orwhat kind of material support
she needs.
Your first thought should beshe needs to be a disciple of
Jesus Christ.
The child growing inside of herneeds to be a disciple of Jesus
Christ.
The guy who got her pregnantneeds to be a disciple of Jesus
Christ.
Too many Christians.
If you ask them if they'repro-life and they say yes and
you ask them to prove it,they'll tell you what they voted
for.
Don't get it twisted.
There is a political role, butit's not the primary role.
(22:08):
If it's a good work, all goodworks that Christians do should
lead to discipleship, which iswhat happens with Jesus.
All the good works that he didled to discipleship.
Scott D. Allen (24:00):
Thank you.
Let me just put this in verypractical terms, if I could,
roland.
So I live here in DeschutesCounty, central Oregon, and
Oregon was one of the states.
After Roe v Wade was overturned, oregon, of course, went the
opposite direction.
Some states banned abortionentirely.
Oregon opened up its doors toeveryone else, you know, and on
(24:22):
taxpayer expense, you know.
Here it just grieves my heart.
You know that we are sopro-abortion in this state.
You know, and you've got a veryactive abortion clinic here,
right down the road from me,people coming over from Idaho,
you know, which is ourneighboring state that's, you
know, put a lot morerestrictions on abortion.
(24:43):
Now they're coming here toDeschutes County.
I'm in a church.
It's a large evangelical church, very active, very pro-life.
What put all that you're sayinginto our context?
What's the best thing that wecan do I can do as a member of
this church to support what'shappening right now on the
ground here?
Because I mean, this is aquestion I ask myself a lot.
(25:04):
It bothers me.
Roland C. Warren (25:05):
Well, the first thing, I start with the
why right, because if you don'tget the why right, you're not
going to get the what right.
The what here is why does awoman want to have an abortion
in the first place?
And I have a chart in the bookthat kind of talks about the
missing support that a woman hasphysical, emotional, spiritual
and social support.
So if there's not a guy whosays I'll be a husband to you
and a father to a child growinginside of you, she's much more
(25:26):
likely to have an abortion right.
But in the cases where thatdoesn't happen, there's a role
for the church.
So, a practical way many, many,many churches have small groups
A lot of times.
Our churches, our small groups,are about us loving us.
What if your small group becameabout us loving them?
What if your small group had aministry for women and men
(25:47):
facing pregnancy decisions tooffer them compassion, hope,
health and then ultimately,discipleship?
So we created a ministry kitcalled Making Life Disciples,
which is designed to teach folksin the church how to come
alongside someone facing apregnancy decision.
If you look at it practically.
Why does she want to have theabortion?
Why does she want to have aplace to?
Scott D. Allen (26:07):
live.
Let me just pause you rightthere.
It's called Making LifeDisciples.
Roland C. Warren (26:10):
Making Life Disciples.
Scott D. Allen (26:11):
You can go to makinglifedisciplescom to learn
more about thisMakinglifedisciplescom Okay.
Roland C. Warren (26:17):
Yep, it's video-based, but it trains you
to come alongside someone who'sfacing a pregnancy decision,
like one of the things I tellyou all the time is like if
you're doing let's say, you'regoing on the mission strip, the
first thing they do is they giveyou what cost?
Cross cultural training.
Right, you're going to thecommunity, a place you've never
been.
Most people have never been tothe place in their head where
(26:41):
they're killing one of theirchildren.
They've never been there.
So in order to minister there,you need cross-cultural training
.
And that's what Making LifeDisciples is.
It teaches you how to engagethat person physically,
emotionally, spiritually andsocially.
And here's the other pointabout it, which makes it
different, very different.
Even if she chooses theabortion decision, we still are
called to what Help her become adisciple of Jesus Christ, even
(27:03):
in the midst of that.
What did Jesus do when Peteraborted him?
Peter was going back to fishing.
He was like he aborted Jesus,because an abortion is a
rejection of life for your ownlife or for your own
circumstances.
And what did Jesus do?
He restored him.
Do you love me?
Do you love me?
Do you love me?
So the first piece ispre-abortion, which is what
Making Life Disciples is about.
(27:23):
And then the second piece ispost-abortion.
So many people sitting in pewshave had abortions and they
think that they can't be inministry on this, and sometimes
they make an abortion decisionpolitically in terms of how they
vote, because they feel like,how am I going to deny somebody
else having an abortion when Ihad one?
Well, that's why thepost-abortion healing is so
(27:46):
important.
So we have two ministries onecalled Forgiven and Set Free and
the other called ReclaimingFatherhood for Women and for Men
, so that folks who arepost-aborted in churches, in
pews, can be mobilized and betransitioned.
And you know, with Peter, whowas post-aborted when Jesus
restored him, do you love me?
(28:06):
Do you love me?
Do you love me what he became?
An amazing disciple to helpothers follow Christ.
So this is distinctly somethingthat the church is really
called to do.
I mean, those are justpractical ways.
Yeah, that sounds so practical.
Scott D. Allen (28:19):
I can't wait to check it out.
Thanks for putting that out.
Hey, we're running out of timeand let me just again mention
the title of the book theAlternative to Abortion why we
Must Be Pro-Abundant Life.
I want to have all of ourlisteners check that out.
I encourage you to read it.
You can see here the depth ofbiblical thinking that we're
(28:40):
getting from Roland, as well asthese practical resources.
And so, john and Luke, I wantto, just as we kind of close up,
you guys I'm sure havequestions and I just want to
open it to you guys as well.
Sorry that I've been kind ofdominating here.
John Bottimore (28:53):
Not at all, Roland.
Thank you.
This is really really wonderfuland eye-opening for us as well,
even though we've been in thisworld for a long time, and
eye-opening for us as well, eventhough we've been in this world
for a long time.
So your audience is equally thechurch, to prepare the church
to come around people facingthese pregnancy decisions, and
your audience is also the crisiscare centers and pregnancy
(29:15):
centers who obviously are facingpeople at the very moments of
these decisions.
Both then right, Both andAbsolutely.
Roland C. Warren (29:26):
The church is the destination for the folks at
the pregnancy center.
We want them going to the churchfor ongoing support and
discipleship, not back to thecommunity that deal in
fatherhood, motherhood, sex andmarriage of God's design,
because then we see them backagain.
So we want to transition to thechurch, but also, candidly, 54%
of the women that haveabortions profess to be Catholic
(29:46):
or Protestant, and we did anational survey.
We found that four out of 10women having abortions and five
out of 10 men that participatein abortions were attending
church at least monthly at thetime of their first abortion.
So if you don't have a ministryin your church for someone who
wakes up Sunday morning andtakes a pregnancy test and the
test is positive, but they thinkthe news is negative, then
(30:06):
Planned Parenthood and anabortion provider looks like a
compassionate alternative to thechurch, and we don't have that
on-ramp in most churches.
So that's the other reason whymaking life disciples is so
critically important so that thefolks in the church know if I'm
facing a pregnancy decision,there's a ministry here to come
alongside me and meet me at mypoint of need.
John Bottimore (30:27):
Thank you, so practical, you know.
Scott D. Allen (30:29):
I'm hearing a lot, and this was the article
that I read last week to you ondiscipleship of young men,
especially young fathers, whichis a crisis, as you know, in our
own country, especially in theblack community, and it's
heartbreaking Love to have youon again at some point to just
talk about that issue alone,that's something that's super
and I agree we're just nottrying to do it at most
(30:52):
evangelical churches.
It's just not on the radar, it'snot what we measure in terms of
our success.
So I really want to be a partof helping churches kind of
rethink what are we doing hereand what does success look like,
especially with these reallycritical groups that are coming
in, you know, to our doors?
Roland C. Warren (31:11):
Well, let me make one other quick point.
Look, there are only about3,000, roughly 3,000 pregnancy
centers in the entire country.
There's over 350,000 churches,I'd say at least half of them
are life-affirming.
Imagine if the world wasoverturned.
Instead of trying to lean on3,000 pregnancy centers, just
10% of churches were doing thething I'm talking about.
(31:32):
I mean, this is it.
We've been plugged into thepolitics.
See, that's my point.
The pro-life perspective leadsyou to the polls.
The pro-abundant lifeperspective leads you to the
cross.
Gotcha.
And you're supposed to go fromthe cross to the polls, not the
other way around.
So when you start thinkingabout this issue as going to the
cross, then you live out thethe Great Commission and you see
(31:53):
that person facing a pregnancydecision as someone who needs to
become a disciple and you lovethem, if you will.
Scott D. Allen (31:59):
Thanks for making that last comment, though
.
It's not that we you know, it'snot that the political thing is
unimportant, but you're just so.
You're not saying that'sunimportant.
What you're saying is there's apriority here, there's a way
that we have to think about it,a right way and a wrong way of
thinking about this issue.
That's right.
(32:22):
You're supposed to take whatyou learn at the cross to the
polls.
Yeah, I like that.
Yeah, anyway, yeah, listen,ronald, listen.
This has been fantastic.
Let me just again encourage ourlisteners to check out your
book the Alternative to Abortionwhy we Must Be Pro-Abundant,
life and Making Life Disciplesthe resource at
makinglifedisciplescom and justcheck out the website for Care
Net as well, and just learn moreabout this incredible ministry
that Roland is heading up aspresident and CEO.
(32:44):
Roland, thank you so much foryour just incredible ministry
and for just honoring us withyour presence today on our
podcast.
Thank you very much.
I appreciate your interest.
Blessings to you, yeah, godbless you, thank you.
Roland C. Warren (32:52):
Thank you very much.
I appreciate your interest.
Blessings to you.
Scott D. Allen (32:55):
Yeah, god bless you Well, luke and John.
What a terrific discussionthere with with Roland I.
I'm so glad we had a chance tomeet him and it was funny, john,
just at the very end.
You guys, it turns out bothplayed football at university of
Pennsylvania at the same timehe played at Princeton.
John Bottimore (33:15):
I played at Penn , ohsylvania, at the same time.
He played at princeton.
I played at penn oh, okay.
Scott D. Allen (33:19):
Okay, yeah, he was at wharton school there,
okay grad school yeah oh, that'sso funny.
Yeah, you guys will definitelyhave to try to connect, but yeah
, that'd be great, really,really wonderful.
Um, I thought just so manyinsights.
He was coming hot and fast, andso it was.
I was I'll have to was one ofthese podcasts I got to go back
and listen to a couple of timesto absorb a lot of what he was
(33:41):
saying.
I'd love to hear just what youguys, what stood out to you from
what Roland was sharing with usin terms of just the book that
he wrote, the concept, just hiswhole take on abortion and the
work that they're doing at CareNet.
John Bottimore (33:57):
I thought it was very refreshing that it was
focused very much on biblicaltruth and focused on the role of
the church and the role ofcoming alongside the young women
and the young men, women andthe young men.
That abundant life means thatthe church leads, not politics.
(34:21):
And it was very convicting tohear how he was very clear that
an issue such as being pro-lifeis unfortunately on a spectrum
and it shouldn't be on aspectrum.
It's either pro-life or notpro-life.
And the way that he talkedabout the pulpit there's
(34:42):
principles and values andcommands are unchanging from the
pulpit.
That's not true from the podiumand the changing political
landscape.
So he does a really good job ofhaving a framework here that
really takes it first andforemost from the church and the
(35:03):
role of the church first andforemost, before even talking
about politics, and then we cantalk later about the resources
he's got for small groups andchurches and everything, because
so many of us have not facedthis personally in our lives.
So it really is like across-cultural discussion to a
certain degree when we comealongside.
(35:24):
And the other thing that wasvery convicting is this idea of
someone finding out on aSaturday night or whatever that
they've found out that they'vebecome pregnant.
If we're not ready immediatelyand they know where to go at 8
am on Sunday morning.
We have something ready in ourchurch, we have small groups
(35:44):
ready, we have a system ready,then the unfortunate alternative
will be ready and is there,just a call away, an 800 number
call away.
So that's a pretty convictingmessage for us in the church.
Scott D. Allen (35:58):
Yeah, I really agree with that.
Yeah, I'd like to kind of go alittle bit deeper on both of
those tracks John, Hisdiscussion on pro-life, kind of
politically versus in the church, and then the practical side in
the church.
Before we do that, though, Luke, let me have you put on the
table the things that are goingon in the church.
Um, before we do that, though,Luke, what?
Let me let me just have you putput on the table of the things
(36:19):
that are going on in your head.
Luke Allen (36:20):
Yeah, yeah, that was such a great discussion.
It's, um, it's.
This is one of those topicswhere it's so, uh, if you go to
almost any church, we're goingto agree that we're pro-life.
You know, and when he gave thatanalogy at the beginning of the
babies floating down the rivertowards a waterfall, we'll all
agree.
Obviously, as Christians, yougot to pull those babies out of
(36:40):
the river as quickly as you can,of course, save babies.
But his desire to go upstreamand see what's actually getting
these babies in the river, Ithink is the approach we need to
have.
You know, so often it's so easyas Christians to complain about
all these terrible culturalconsequences that we see around
us, whether it's abortion orwhether it's the breakdown of
(37:02):
the family, or whether it's thegender ideologies, confusion in
schools or whatever it is, butthen we stop there, you know.
Let's get back to the ideasthat actually cause these
consequences to happen.
Let's get back to the sourcehere, and so I just love that
message that's so important.
(37:22):
In getting back to the abundantlife and then outlining what
the abundant life looks like, Ithought was really helpful as
well.
For a long time, I think,personally, I was under the
false idea that if we can justlet people know what an abortion
actually is and what'shappening in the womb Christian
(37:43):
or not, everyone in Americawould agree this is wrong.
If we can show them that theheartbeat's actually beating,
you know, at two weeks or threeweeks or whenever they've
actually figured that out now,if we can actually show them
that this is not a clump ofcells, that this is a human
being inside the womb, that justlike you, then we will be able
to solve this problem.
That's not true and,unfortunately, the more and more
(38:04):
science proves that, yes, thisis truly a human being inside of
the mother's womb.
Um, that has not changed theissue for anyone.
Uh, so it's.
It's not a biological questionanymore.
This.
I I'm not exactly sure if thisis true or not, but they did
this survey recently on justAmerica's common humanity and
where it sits today andbasically, um, if this I'm not
(38:28):
exactly sure if this is true,but if it's not, it still serves
serves a point.
Uh, they asked a bunch ofpeople.
It's funny.
It's a similar analogy, the onehe used If you're standing next
to a river and you have a ropewith a lifesaver in your hand
and you see someone floatingdown the river in front of you,
total stranger.
You don't know them, but there'sa waterfall right there.
Are you going to throw them therope to pull them out?
But right behind them is yourfavorite dog floating down the
(38:51):
river.
Are you going to save the dogor the person?
You only can save one.
They asked this to a bunch ofpeople.
Uh, they split it down bygenerations.
They noticed that in oldergenerations 60 plus the vast
majority of people said save therandom stranger over my, my dog
, that I love.
Younger generations said I'mgonna save, I would save the dog
.
Scott D. Allen (39:11):
the majority of them said that that's crazy well
that's crazy, if that's true, Ithink it is uh.
It's uh the name of our podcast.
Ideas have consequences andit's just the shifting
understanding of what it meansto be human and the value of
human.
We don't value human lifeanymore though we're, we're not.
Luke Allen (39:28):
We don't have a common humanity as far as the
way we value it.
That's crazy and of coursethat's going to play into the
pro-life issue I mean you canuse all the arguments and logic
you want.
As far as biology goes, of whata human?
Is yeah, that's right that'snot going to convince people no,
but a human, a human is just.
Scott D. Allen (39:43):
I mean, we've been taught over and over we're
just animals, right?
So, in effect, there is novalue difference between the dog
and the person.
That's what people have beentaught for years now.
You know, and it's just, it'sjust, it's just a it's just so,
of course.
John Bottimore (39:56):
Yeah, it's just so thin.
Yeah, it's being increasinglytrue, both at the beginning of
life and end of life issues nowtoo, that we see this.
So what an abundant life is.
Luke Allen (40:06):
If the Christians, if the church, can define that
well and champion that idea,hopefully we can have the
consequences of that down theroad of a restored understanding
of the human.
So I think that's the rightquestion to be asking right now.
John Bottimore (40:23):
Yeah, well, he called it heartbeats that are
heaven-bound, and obviously wecan see that from a Christian
standpoint and understand whatthat means and understand what
that joyous eternal end is forus when we're believers.
But the message to theunconverted about heartbeats
that are heaven-bound we have toconsider what that really is.
Scott D. Allen (40:44):
I, too, really appreciated the distinction
between you know, there's thevalue of all life, because all
people are created by God in Hisimage.
It's their priceless right, allhuman life is priceless.
But then he went on and he saidbut then there's eternal life
(41:05):
right, the life that comes frombeing born again.
You know, when Paul talks aboutthis in Ephesians, you were
dead in your trespasses and yoursins, and then you know, god
made you alive, right?
So there is this rebirth, andthat's what I was hearing him
say in terms of abundant life.
And he used the two Greek wordsI remember the second one was
(41:26):
zoe and I can't remember thename of the first one, but I
thought that was very Bios orbios.
Bios, yeah, very profound.
And I just heard him make anappeal to say, hey, life has to
encompass both of these things.
As Christians we know that,especially if we're committed to
evangelism.
I mean, that's the heartbeatbehind evangelism you need to be
born again.
But yeah, that somehow hasn'tmaybe penetrated as deeply into
(41:49):
the pro-life movement as itought to, and I heard him making
an appeal to that, which Ithought was profound.
I want to go back to thepolitical thing, john, again,
because when he first startedtalking about that I got a
little concerned.
I almost heard him.
You know it seemed to like kindof demean the political side of
this.
And you know he, for example,you know, I think when we first
(42:15):
started talking about it, hetalked about how the you know,
politicians that are pro-lifemight be trying to push
legislation that limits abortionafter a certain number of weeks
, you know, and call that apro-life type of legislation,
and somehow that was wrong, thatyou needed to be kind of a
(42:36):
purist even in the politicalrealm.
This is what I was at leastinitially thinking he was saying
and I heard Christians in thislast election, because we do
think I think he's right about,we tend to think as Christians,
about abortion in that kind ofpolitical framework maybe too
much.
But I heard Christians say well, I can't vote for Donald Trump
(43:00):
because he doesn't support lifefrom conception.
He would be in favor of laws orlegislation that would limit
abortion after a certain numberof weeks, but he wouldn't have
that perfect kind of puristposition and I always thought,
you know, it's important forChristians, as he was saying,
(43:22):
the church, the pulpit, to havethat like voice, that all human
life, no matter you know how itwas conceived, what color, what
you know station in life,poverty, whatever it is all
human life is sacred and it'spriceless from the time of
conception.
Like that's the strong, clearmessage.
(43:44):
But then politicians have towork to pass legislation in a
country where not everyonebelieves that and you just have
to make incremental gains.
I mean, I think of people likeWilliam Wilberforce.
He's a politician, a Christian,and he had to make incremental
gains on the abolition ofslavery.
It just didn't—he couldn't comein there as a purist and say
abolish it all.
You know, it just wasn't goingto happen.
(44:05):
And that's just a confusionover politics.
Right To be a Christian inpolitics means you can't—you
know it's not the same messageas it is from the Pope it is.
But then you've got to takeincremental gains and I've often
thought, gosh, if we could atleast get to, you know, limit
abortion after X number of weeks, because we have one of the in
the United States, one of themost horrific, you know, roe v
(44:27):
Wade was.
You know there was no limit onit.
And when they put us in thecategory of countries like North
Korea and China, very fewcountries had no limits on
abortion.
And so, gosh, if we could atleast make some headway on that.
But I think he came back at theend of it and said no, politics
is important and it's important, but this has been an area
(44:54):
where we could have kind ofprobed a little bit further.
This can't just be a politicaldiscussion.
Luke Allen (45:00):
I think that's what I heard him say kind of strongly
, but it wasn't.
It wasn't discounting yeah, goahead.
I wasn't hearing him say thatat first.
I was just hearing him say thatwhen you label yourself
pro-life, it means you're on abroad spectrum, and a broad
spectrum not of what you'regoing to pass legislatively, but
of why you're pro-life.
And some people are pro-lifebecause they believe in, yeah,
the image of God, the Imago Dei,life, because they believe in,
yeah, the image of god, theimago dei, and all that.
That means an abundant life.
And other people are pro-lifebecause it gets more votes, or
it's what all their friends saythey are, or you know, the why
(45:23):
has nothing to do with humanlife and the value of human life
.
It just has to do withsomething else.
It's.
It's not a, it's a politicalissue, not a moral issue.
That's.
That's more of what I washearing.
I don't know.
John Bottimore (45:36):
Yeah, I thought so too, the the practicality of
it of.
Of course, if we want toprotect as many lives as
possible, and if that has tohappen on kind of an incremental
gain basis, then that's notideal but it's better than that.
But that's politics, I meanthat's, that's also it also,
obviously, that the path toreally changing is not political
(45:59):
.
The path to really changing isthe hearts and minds, absolutely
, and that happens person byperson and church by church.
Scott D. Allen (46:06):
And again, 350,000 churches have a lot of
reach to their own members andto society as a whole, and it's
such a fundamental thing yeahyou know it's such a good point,
john, and I'm going back toWilberforce and you know he
(46:28):
would, I think, firmly agreewith you that you know, and that
the issue there was theemancipation of slavery, the
ending of the slave trade.
That couldn't happenpolitically in England until
people's hearts and mindschanged, and so he was very
aware of that and he also sawthat as the role largely of the
church and that's why he workedso closely with Whitefield and
(46:49):
Wesley in that great revival,because that was actually
changing hearts and minds.
That kind of laid thefoundation then for political
solutions and legislation.
It couldn't have happenedwithout it.
So I think you're spot on andjust important for us to
remember but not to pit thesethings against each other.
I don't like that, don't dothat, Don't do that.
(47:13):
We've got essential roles toplay, right, you know, both in
politics, but also probably morefundamentally and I agree this
is more fundamental in thepulpit, in the church, changing
hearts and minds, yeah.
John Bottimore (47:26):
Right, and I think he rightly was elevating
it, not pitting it, but moreelevating the role of the church
and the role of education anddiscipleship.
And again, both to the motherand the father, it's so critical
and people coming around themand such, so that's just really
really critical to see a changein this important issue.
(47:50):
And yeah, and he also talkedabout this curriculum for small
groups making life disciples.
Scott D. Allen (48:01):
Yeah, let's go there, John, because he clearly
has a heart for the local churchand the critical role for the
local church to play in the lifeissue and I was so grateful to
hear that.
Very practical resources aswell.
You know, think about your ownsmall group.
I'm thinking of my small group,honestly, you know.
Okay, so what can we do?
You know, Luke, what did youhear on that side of things,
Because I thought that wasterrific.
Luke Allen (48:22):
Yeah, I mean very practically.
I think at our church thereactually is a group that is.
It's a group that meets withyoung mothers who are
experiencing unplannedpregnancies and just walking
with them through the ninemonths and just encouraging them
, um, towards towards the truth,um.
So I have a couple of friendsthat are a part of that and I'd
(48:44):
like to get more involved inthat, uh and I.
That's something our smallgroup could easily do.
Um, I mean these, a lot ofthese, uh, pregnancy resource
centers are.
They're ready to go Like they,they have a mission and a drive
and they have a vision.
What they need is help, and alot of them just just need more,
more resources and help, and Iwould say probably more more
(49:07):
hands-on help than justresources.
Giving resources is easy we'reAmericans, we have plenty of
that but what?
What can we do?
Scott D. Allen (49:15):
you know, hands-on, yes, that's much
harder and come around them aschurches, you know, with the
resources of the church, notjust again, not just money, but
just the manpower resources ofthe church.
John Bottimore (49:29):
Yeah, I think we've seen the maturity and the
offerings that come from thesecrisis pregnancy centers and all
now to again to talk about therole of the man in the decision
and to work all of that.
It's not just the baby, it'sthe mother and the baby and it's
the man as well, and so it'sreally, really important to look
(49:52):
at that full kind of a decisionand all in this and we know,
and many of them do this is theyreally look back and look at
the emotional damage that's donepost-abortion some people for
the rest of their lives and alland so that's so, so important
(50:15):
that they understand this, notas a sudden decision to make now
, but something that has such animpact for their lives, the
rest of the future and obviously, to the life of the unborn
preeminently.
Scott D. Allen (50:30):
Well, we like to leave our listeners, luke, as
you know, with practicaltakeaways, and I feel like I
personally have some from thisconversation, you know, because
it's something that I've beenwrestling with what can I do
here in Bend, deschutes County,because it's such a dire
situation here, you know, it'sjust heartbreaking.
You know what's happening righthere in our backyards.
(50:54):
And so, yeah, he left us withsome great practical ideas that
churches can do and, like yousay, luke, our church has some
great things already going on,and so a step for me is to learn
more about that and thenpossibly plug in the small, you
know, group, community group to,you know, the Crisis Pregnancy
Centers here locally.
I'm going to check outmakinglifedisciplescom, so hope
(51:22):
all of our listeners will, allof you guys will do the same
Kind of what can you do?
How can we be part of thesolution to this gravest of all
you know threats to human lifein our own country, the United
States, and really around theworld?
What can we do?
What practical things, whatsteps can we take?
What's God calling us to do,luke, john, final thoughts, wrap
up here.
Luke Allen (51:44):
I loved what he said about Joseph, and I know a lot
of Josephs and I'm a Joseph, andfor a long time.
There's that argument that youcan't talk about being pro-life
if you're a man because youdon't experience this.
That's totally false and menhave a huge part to play in this
(52:04):
.
His resource ReclaimingFatherhood I'm curious to look
into and learn a little bit moreabout that, and just
encouraging young men around meon how to embrace their role as
Joseph is a takeaway for meSuper, super good Luke.
Scott D. Allen (52:19):
I thought that was so powerful too.
Yeah, just kind of, here's acrisis pregnancy.
You know you don't think ofJesus, you know, for Mary and
Joseph, as a crisis pregnancy,but it certainly was.
You know this was this createda crisis for Mary and Joseph.
You know you go back and readthose accounts.
I mean, this was not an easything and it was a crisis for
(52:42):
both of them that they had towalk through Same thing.
John Bottimore (52:46):
The role of the man in all of this is so, so, so
critical and obviously inpreventing this crisis in the
first place, with appropriaterelationships and honor, and all
before marriage.
So that's beautiful.
Scott D. Allen (53:04):
Yeah, thanks guys.
This has been great.
What a great discussion.
Luke, thanks for your work andkind of setting it all up.
Really grateful for you and forall of our listeners.
Thank you, we really appreciateyou tuning in and appreciate
you sharing about the podcastwith your friends as well.
We are the Disciple NationsAlliance and this is our podcast
(53:25):
.
Ideas have Consequences.
Thank you, thank you.
54% of the women that have abortions
profess to be Catholic orProtestant and we did a national
survey.
We found that four out of 10women having abortions and five
out of 10 men that participatein abortions were attending
church at least monthly at thetime of their first abortion.
So if you don't have a ministryin your church for someone who
wakes up Sunday morning andtakes a pregnancy test and the
test is positive but they thinkthe news is negative, then
(00:25):
Planned Parenthood and anabortion provider looks like a
compassionate alternative to thechurch.
Luke Allen (00:38):
Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world, to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.
(00:58):
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.
Scott D. Allen (01:17):
Well, welcome again everyone to another
episode of Ideas haveConsequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen, I'm thepresident of the DNA and I'm
joined today by my co-workersJohn Bottimore and Luke Allen.
Guys, great to be with youagain.
Thank you, good to be here, andtoday we're thrilled to have a
(01:40):
very distinguished guest, rolandWarren.
Roland is the president and theCEO of Care Net and, for those
of you who aren't familiar withCare Net, it supports one of the
largest networks of pregnancycenters in North America, has
1,200 affiliates, over 30,000volunteers.
(02:03):
So when we think of pro-life,supporting the pro-life movement
and cause in very practical,hands-on way ways, we think of
crisis pregnancy centers andCare Net.
Roland is the president.
He is also author of a brandnew book Well, it came out in
2024 titled the Alternative toAbortion why we Must Be
(02:28):
Pro-Abundant Life and we'regoing to get into that.
Your credentials are prettyamazing.
He's a graduate of PrincetonUniversity and the Wharton
School of Business at theUniversity of Pennsylvania Just
a couple of small schools youmight have heard of.
He is a servant leader with aheart for Christ and a mind for
(02:50):
business.
He had 20 years in thecorporate world with IBM, with
Pepsi and a small company calledGoldman Sachs, and then he
spent 11 years as the presidentof the National Fatherhood
Initiative before joining CareNet in 2012.
And I'd like to talk to you alittle bit about that as well,
roland.
(03:10):
You know he is a national mediafigure.
He's been on shows like theOprah Winfrey Show, the Today
Show, cnn and, of course, themost famous of them.
All Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Roland C. Warren (03:26):
Right, boom, right, yeah, never again.
Scott D. Allen (03:31):
Right, exactly exactly.
You've reached the pinnaclewhen it comes to media, so we're
thrilled, Honestly.
Roland, thank you so much fortaking time to be with us today.
We're grateful.
Roland C. Warren (03:41):
Oh, great to be with you.
Thanks so much for yourinterest.
Scott D. Allen (03:43):
Oh well, listen, we want to dive into your book,
but before that I really wantto hear just a little bit about
you.
I'll tell you.
It's funny, I was telling theguys before the podcast.
I'm surprised I'd not heard ofyou before with this kind of
background.
But I did read one of yourarticles last week.
It came across my path and Iread it and again, I didn't even
(04:06):
know we were going to have thepodcast with you this week and
you were writing about thedesperate need that we have to
disciple young fathers in ourchurches and I just was so
violently in agreement with whatyou were saying and I thought I
just kept the article and Ithought I've got to reach out to
this guy.
And then Luke says, oh, we'regoing to have him on our podcast
.
So anyways, but I'd love tohear just a little bit of your
(04:31):
backstory, given the fact thatyou have this very distinguished
educational background, workbackground.
You know, when I think ofPrinceton University, for
example, I often think of verycommitted black Christian men
who are pro-life.
There must be, you knowmillions of them.
Roland C. Warren (04:48):
Yeah, we just tripped over each other on
campus.
It was crazy.
Scott D. Allen (04:54):
Yeah, yeah, tell us about yeah, how did you?
How did you just?
Yeah, where do you come from?
Just a little bit of your storyand how you ended up in such,
you know, incredibly prestigiousplaces like that and doing what
you're doing now.
Roland C. Warren (05:05):
Yeah, no, thank you.
Thank you very much.
I appreciate that, scott.
Yeah, I, you know, from aPrinceton standpoint, I mean a
lot of that in terms of myissues around the issue around
life and and you know theperspective I have that lay out
in the book why we must be proabundant life, the alternative
to abortion.
A lot of it came from,basically, my start at Princeton
.
I was an undergraduate, myjunior year at Princeton and I
(05:32):
got my girlfriend pregnant.
So she was a sophomore, I was ajunior and we were facing an
unplanned pregnancy and she wentto student health services to
get the pregnancy test and thenurse came back, delivered the
test, said it's positive,without taking an extra gulp of
air, said now, of course you'regoing to have an abortion.
My girlfriend and my wife of 43years punchline, said no, no, I
(05:53):
want to get married, I'm goingto have my baby.
And the nurse said my gosh, howare you going to graduate from
Princeton with a baby?
What do you want to do?
Well, I want to become a doctor.
She says well, I want to becomea doctor.
She says well, how are yougoing to become a doctor with a
baby?
It didn't seem like it made alot of sense.
And so I kind of imagined thatshe came back to the dorm and we
sort of talked about it in mykind of 20 year old way, you
know.
We both said, hey look, we'regoing to get married.
(06:13):
And so we did.
So I was 19.
She was 20.
We got married by the justiceof the peace, with four students
with us, and you know we'vebeen now married 43 years, as of
May 1st.
So you know, at the time Iwasn't, you know, I wouldn't
call myself a pro-life advocateor anything like that.
I hadn't, frankly, even thoughtvery deeply about the issue at
20.
But we were faced with this,you know, pregnancy center,
(06:36):
excuse me, this pregnancydecision in that moment, and it
really informed how I thinkabout the issue now.
And it really informed how Ithink about the issue now.
I mean, god used thatperspective of what happened
there to really give me aframework that sort of
transitioned you from thinkingabout the issue as a pro-life
issue to thinking about it aspro-abundant life, and I can
kind of talk more about that.
But that's kind of where thegenesis is.
(06:58):
But anyway, so we went on andhad our son.
She actually had both of ourkids, both of our boys, rather
at Princeton.
She had our second one about amonth or so before she graduated
, so she had to deliver herthesis and she delivered our son
.
They're both on time.
And then our older son went onto go to Harvard and you know as
the kid they wanted us to kindof get rid of.
(07:19):
You know this kind of guy he is.
So it just really showed us inthat moment that you know that
often, you know, when we seelife we don't see clearly.
You know saying that's outthere, not original, me for sure
.
But you know anybody can countthe number of apple seeds in an
apple, but only God knows thenumber of apples in a single
seed.
So we just don't understand,you know that.
(07:42):
And what we see in the futurewe don't really see.
We don't have that ability todo that.
And finally, I would say I havethis one picture I just love of
my wife holding ourgranddaughter who's through the
sun.
We were supposed to abort andmy wife is no longer 19.
And it's this amazing pictureof her and just the joy on her
face holding our granddaughterwho's, you know, just a little
(08:02):
under a year at the time.
It's just an amazing picture ofher and just the joy on her
face holding our granddaughterwho's you know just a little
under a year at the time.
Just an amazing picture, and Itell people all the time that
you know my wife couldn't seethat picture when she was 19,.
But God did, god did, and sopart of the reason I'm in this
work is trying to help peoplehave the trust that God has a
picture, has a future for you,has a perspective for you, right
(08:22):
, has a portrait of you in thefuture when you include him.
That's very different than theone that you may think that
you're going to have when you'remaking the pregnancy decision.
Scott D. Allen (08:31):
That's super powerful.
Did you grow up in a Christianhome, Roland?
Roland C. Warren (08:35):
Yeah, I mean I grew up I mean I was, you know,
I grew up in the black churchand my I would say we're
Christian in the sense it waskind of a cultural thing, but it
wasn't necessarily, you know, agospel focused home.
I would say my mom made surethat we went to church, but she
actually didn't go to churchwith us, so it wasn't from that
perspective, but the church hadan enormous impact on.
(08:56):
The church, had an enormousimpact on how I viewed life.
And really, you know, I tellpeople all the time that I grew
up in a single mother home andyou know, my mother got pregnant
the first time when she was 16,16, 17, had me when she was 19.
By the time she was 23, you knowshe'd gotten married to my
father and then, you know,things kind of frayed there and
(09:18):
then by the time she was 23, shehad four kids under the age of
eight and my father was gone.
So you know, the saving gracefor me was that I went to church
and that I saw men beinghusbands and fathers in my
church.
As a little black boy growingup in Toledo Ohio, I saw that.
So when I got my girlfriendpregnant, the thought of being a
baby daddy or some other kindof thing other than a husband
(09:39):
and a father wasn't reallysomething that was in my mix,
because that was modeled for mein the church and I had that
vision that certainly at thattime was a very important one to
have.
Scott D. Allen (09:49):
Wow, that's super powerful.
Well, tell us a little bitabout your new book.
The title again is theAlternative to Abortion why we
Must Be Pro-Abundant Life.
I'd like to hear just a littlebit of unpacking on both of
those sentences.
The alternative to abortionwhat is that, and what is pro
(10:12):
being pro-abundant life?
Obviously, I know what anabundant life means and what
that looks like, but what do youmean in this context, roland?
Roland C. Warren (10:19):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I'll start with the
second question first, becauseit kind of unpacks the first
thing.
But you know, when I firststarted in this work about 13
years ago, I started trying tounderstand.
You know what was the issue,and you know, and you know how
do you solve it.
What are you solving for, ifyou will?
And you know the pro-lifemovement, which is a movement
(10:40):
that's been around a long time,and I just started to think
about what was happening in themovement and how we were kind of
approaching the issue, theissue, and in a lot of ways it
was sort of like you know,imagine you're walking alongside
of a river or something likethat and there are babies in the
river and you know, oh my gosh,there are babies in the river
and you jump in and you starttaking babies out of the river,
right, and you know, gosh,there's more coming and there's
a waterfall and you're takingthem all out, as many as you can
(11:02):
, but you're missing a lot ofthem.
You signal to other folks theyget in, they're taking babies
out too, but you're stillmissing a lot.
Somewhere in the midst of allthat somebody should say how do
these babies get in the river tobegin with.
Even though you've got thisamazing baby taking out of the
river machine that you'vedeveloped, you're missing a lot
In the midst of that.
Somebody needs to get upstreamto say how did they get in the
(11:23):
river to begin with?
Because it's not a naturalplace for babies to be.
Well, I started to think aboutthe issue that way, which is
like getting upstream of how youthink about the issue, and so
as I started to think about andpray about that, god led me to
John 10, 10, where Christ saidyou know, it came that you might
have life and that lifeabundantly.
And when I started to unpackthat verse, what I realized was
(11:44):
that what Jesus is saying inthat moment and this is really
important because this isJesus's why statement, it's why
he came it's like this is why Icame that you might have life
and then have that lifeabundantly.
He's talking about two types oflife.
He's talking about physicallife, which is where we get the
word bios right.
Bios, rather, is the Greek forphysical life, where we get that
term physical life, if you will.
(12:05):
But he's also talking about zoe, which is a unique type of life
that only comes from arelationship with God.
So what he's essentially sayingis I came to link your bias to
my zoe that you might beheartbeats that are heaven bound
, and so when I thought aboutthat, I said my gosh, okay, wait
.
From a pro-life perspective, isthat what we're solving for?
Even that, I said my gosh, okay, wait.
From a pro-life perspective, isthat what we're solving for,
even as christians, heartbeatsthat are heaven bound?
(12:26):
I mean, you could be an atheistand be pro-life, but jesus is
saying that he's not justpro-life, he's pro-abundant life
, which means heartbeats thatare having bound.
And I started to look at themovement.
I said is that really whatwe're solving for?
Are we solving for heartbeatsthat are having bound?
We should be.
Well, gosh, I can't be pro-life, I have to be pro-abundant life
, not because I think so, butbecause Jesus was pro-abundant
(12:50):
life, and so that's how we gotthat framework and why Care Net
is not a pro-life organization.
We are a pro-abundant lifeministry because the focus of
our work is heartbeats that areheaven bound.
Right, because that's whatJesus did.
So when you start to look atthe issue that way, it changes
how you approach the issue.
In fact, it's a uniquelyChristian way of looking at the
(13:12):
life issue.
The other reason why that's soimportant is that you got to ask
yourself what does the termpro-life even mean anymore?
I mean, it really has lost itsmeaning, if you will, because
we've given that we gave theissue to the politics and it's
framed through a political lens.
And let me just say it more morespecifically.
Yes, a person say they'repro-life.
(13:33):
You say what do you mean bythat?
Well, one person says OK, I'mpro-life because I believe in a
model day, that children arecreating the image of God that
Genesis talks about, and thatthe circumstances of a child's
conception and birth should notdetermine its value, its
humanity and worth.
Whether you're conceived inlove or lust, planned unplanned,
whether you have fetalabnormality, it doesn't matter.
(13:53):
You are intrinsically of valuebecause you're connected to God.
That you're creating the imageof God, that's a pro-life guy.
Another guy says well, I'mpro-life too, and I'm for a
15-week ban.
Okay, well, how many abortionshappen before 15 weeks?
96%, okay.
So you're pro-life, but you'reokay with 96% of abortions?
Yes, okay.
What about you?
Well, I'm pro-life too.
(14:14):
I'm for a 20-week ban becausethat's when babies can feel pain
.
Around 20 weeks 99% Okay, andyou're pro-life too, right, all
y'all are pro-life.
Do you see the?
Problem.
We took an issue where there'san absolute and it's now on a
spectrum.
It's now on a spectrum.
(14:40):
So what I've been saying tofolks is we need to take this
issue.
It needs to be taken from thepodium and given back to the
pulpit, because a podium whichis the political lens of it,
primarily a podium doesn't haveany intrinsic perspective.
That's why when the presidentspeaks, they put a seal in front
of him.
It gives the podium a certaingravitas, a certain perspective.
Anybody can't run up and speakat the podium because it's got
(15:00):
the presidential seal.
And when the president leavesguess what they do?
They take the seal.
Then anybody can run up andtalk there.
Well, the pulpit has a certainseal too.
It's John 10, 10, why Christcame.
It's the great commandment,it's the great commission, all
these biblical narratives thatare the same yesterday, today
and forever.
The podium is not the sameyesterday, today and forever.
(15:20):
It changes.
Why?
Situationally.
So if you think about it thatway, if you take an issue that
by its very nature is a binaryissue, in other words, when you
think about the politics,essentially what you have is you
have two people who have aconviction, right, so you may
have a conviction on tax policy,this other person has a
conviction on tax policy, orthis one's an environmentalist,
(15:43):
this one's like big lumber,whatever.
And you come together in thepolitical process and you make a
compromise right.
That makes sense.
But if you have an issue likelife and you give it to a
process by its very nature,there's no room for compromise.
You actually find yourself inthe same dilemma that Solomon
was in when those two women cameand there was one baby and he
(16:06):
said well, why don't we justsplit the baby?
Now, he knew what he was doing.
There was wisdom there, and,and, and the woman who was for
righteousness and justice saidno, no, no, no.
You can't split the baby, giveit to her.
So if you take an issue likelife, like a baby, and you give
it to a process right, becauseSolomon in that sense was like a
political process that yousplit, you see what happens you
(16:27):
end up with injustice, you endup with sacrificing the
vulnerable.
So the people of the book, thepeople of the podium, may have
that perspective, but the peopleof the pulpit, which Solomon
transitioned to in terms of whathe was solving for, they
understand you can't spit thebaby, do you see?
(16:49):
So, from my perspective, beingpro-abundant life means that the
church and the Christians havea very specific way of looking
at the life issue and that thechurch leads on this issue with
the politics playing itsappropriate role.
But if you put the politics inthe role of solving for justice
and righteousness, you end upsplitting the baby, and that's
really what the problem is.
So that was the kind ofoverarching framework of the
difference, in my view, betweenbeing pro-life and being
(17:09):
pro-abundant life.
And I believe, as I said, jesuswasn't just pro-life, he was
pro-abundant life.
Why?
Because he said he was.
Scott D. Allen (17:16):
That's really powerful.
How does that translate intothe work of, specifically of
Care Net?
When I think of the crisispregnancy centers around the
country, including here in myown town, what does that mean
practically?
Roland C. Warren (17:30):
Yeah, practically, then, you kind of
think about it this way.
Let's say, imagine that Icreated a roof and it's a
pro-abundant life roof and youhave two pillars that hold that
roof up.
The first pillar is God'sdesign for family.
So, in terms of practice, whatyou do is that you're actually
modeling what you do based onthe most celebrated unplanned
pregnancy in human existence,which is the birth of Christ.
(17:52):
Right, I mean, jesus wasunplanned from a human
perspective.
Mary had hopes and dreams andaspirations for her life that
didn't include a child at thattime and in this way, right.
And then the angel comes to herand says listen, you're going
to conceive and bear a child.
And I'm sure Mary had all thisuncertainty swirling around in
her head.
You know what's Joseph going tosay, what's my family going to
(18:12):
say?
How am I going to take care ofthis baby?
All this uncertainty.
And she has a clarity in thatmoment to not focus on the
uncertainty of what she doesn'tknow.
She focuses on the certainty ofwhat she does.
There's a life growing insideof her and it's not a life worth
sacrificing, but a life worthsacrificing for right.
But what does God do to makesure that Mary's unplanned
pregnancy is not a crisispregnancy.
He didn't give her a baby daddyand a check.
(18:32):
He didn't give her a governmentworker and a check.
He gave her a husband for herand a father for the child born
inside of her.
He sent an angel to Joseph andJoseph had a plan and his plan
was to divorce her quietly, toput her away quietly, right, and
if you think about it back thenyou couldn't put the baby away
like we can today, so you putthe woman and the baby away.
So, essentially, joseph facedthe same dilemmas as any
(18:55):
abortion-minded man right Hopesand dreams for his life, and his
life with Mary that did notinclude a child at this time and
in this way.
And the angel comes to him andsays man with a plan, I got a
new plan for you, man.
It is this Husband to herfather, to the child growing
inside of her.
And when Jesus was at risk,mary was at risk because Herod
wanted to kill Jesus.
Guess what Came to Joseph,again providing to protect one
man, two missions husband to herfather, to the child growing
(19:17):
inside of her.
Now, how's that contemporary?
When my wife was facing thisunplanned pregnancy, she had the
same dilemma that Mary hadDifferent way of getting
pregnant, but practically thesame.
How's she going to tell herfamily?
How's she going to have herhopes and dreams?
How's she going to tell me Allof that?
What did she do?
She tapped into her inner Mary.
And then what did God call meto do?
Well, to tap into my innerJoseph.
(19:38):
So when there's an unplannedpregnancy, from a biblical
perspective, god creates afamily.
Is that what we've been doingfor 40 years?
Are we creating families?
Are we creating single motherhomes, which also lead to more
abortions and unplannedpregnancies?
Do you see?
So the first pillar is God'sdesign for family.
So that means the pregnancycenters that are affiliated with
(19:59):
Karen.
What we do is try to encouragethem.
No, you don't just reach her,you reach him and them.
And you reach them with amessage, a holistic message that
God has designed for them.
Now, why does that matter?
87% of the women that haveabortions are unmarried.
So when you de-link themarriage issue from the abortion
issue, guess what?
You get more abortions.
(20:20):
God didn't do that.
He linked the marriage issueand the life issue.
So in the story of Mary andJoseph, you see two sanctities
the sanctity of marriage andfamily and the sanctity of life.
And, by the way, the firstthing he told Joseph to do was
what?
Do not be afraid to take Maryas your wife.
He didn't even tell who Jesuswas.
So he prioritized the sanctityof marriage and family before
(20:42):
the sanctity of life, and that'show you get that.
So my view is, if you reallywant to solve the abortion issue
, the first pillar of that isreally God's design for family,
which means we have to have amovement that's actually
engaging men and calling men inthe same way that we're calling
women, if you will.
Now, let's say the guy's unableor unwilling to step into that
(21:03):
role.
Well then, that's the role ofthe church, right?
James 1.27 talks about religion, that God, our Father, finds it
true and faultless that we dowhat?
Care for the orphans and widowsin their distress.
What was an orphan when thatwas written?
It was a child without a father, and what was a widow?
It was a child without a father.
(21:26):
And what was a widow?
It was a mother without ahusband.
So the church has a veryspecific role to play if the guy
is unwilling to tap into hisinner Joseph in order to support
her, tapping into her innerMary, which means that second
pillar is God's call todiscipleship.
In other words, you see thisissue as a discipleship issue,
not just as a political issue.
So you look at a woman facingan unplanned pregnancy and you
say your first thought's not whodo I need to vote for so she
(21:46):
can't have the abortion right orwhat kind of material support
she needs.
Your first thought should beshe needs to be a disciple of
Jesus Christ.
The child growing inside of herneeds to be a disciple of Jesus
Christ.
The guy who got her pregnantneeds to be a disciple of Jesus
Christ.
Too many Christians.
If you ask them if they'repro-life and they say yes and
you ask them to prove it,they'll tell you what they voted
for.
Don't get it twisted.
There is a political role, butit's not the primary role.
(22:08):
If it's a good work, all goodworks that Christians do should
lead to discipleship, which iswhat happens with Jesus.
All the good works that he didled to discipleship.
Scott D. Allen (24:00):
Thank you.
Let me just put this in verypractical terms, if I could,
roland.
So I live here in DeschutesCounty, central Oregon, and
Oregon was one of the states.
After Roe v Wade was overturned, oregon, of course, went the
opposite direction.
Some states banned abortionentirely.
Oregon opened up its doors toeveryone else, you know, and on
(24:22):
taxpayer expense, you know.
Here it just grieves my heart.
You know that we are sopro-abortion in this state.
You know, and you've got a veryactive abortion clinic here,
right down the road from me,people coming over from Idaho,
you know, which is ourneighboring state that's, you
know, put a lot morerestrictions on abortion.
(24:43):
Now they're coming here toDeschutes County.
I'm in a church.
It's a large evangelical church, very active, very pro-life.
What put all that you're sayinginto our context?
What's the best thing that wecan do I can do as a member of
this church to support what'shappening right now on the
ground here?
Because I mean, this is aquestion I ask myself a lot.
(25:04):
It bothers me.
Roland C. Warren (25:05):
Well, the first thing, I start with the
why right, because if you don'tget the why right, you're not
going to get the what right.
The what here is why does awoman want to have an abortion
in the first place?
And I have a chart in the bookthat kind of talks about the
missing support that a woman hasphysical, emotional, spiritual
and social support.
So if there's not a guy whosays I'll be a husband to you
and a father to a child growinginside of you, she's much more
(25:26):
likely to have an abortion right.
But in the cases where thatdoesn't happen, there's a role
for the church.
So, a practical way many, many,many churches have small groups
A lot of times.
Our churches, our small groups,are about us loving us.
What if your small group becameabout us loving them?
What if your small group had aministry for women and men
(25:47):
facing pregnancy decisions tooffer them compassion, hope,
health and then ultimately,discipleship?
So we created a ministry kitcalled Making Life Disciples,
which is designed to teach folksin the church how to come
alongside someone facing apregnancy decision.
If you look at it practically.
Why does she want to have theabortion?
Why does she want to have aplace to?
Scott D. Allen (26:07):
live.
Let me just pause you rightthere.
It's called Making LifeDisciples.
Roland C. Warren (26:10):
Making Life Disciples.
Scott D. Allen (26:11):
You can go to makinglifedisciplescom to learn
more about thisMakinglifedisciplescom Okay.
Roland C. Warren (26:17):
Yep, it's video-based, but it trains you
to come alongside someone who'sfacing a pregnancy decision,
like one of the things I tellyou all the time is like if
you're doing let's say, you'regoing on the mission strip, the
first thing they do is they giveyou what cost?
Cross cultural training.
Right, you're going to thecommunity, a place you've never
been.
Most people have never been tothe place in their head where
(26:41):
they're killing one of theirchildren.
They've never been there.
So in order to minister there,you need cross-cultural training
.
And that's what Making LifeDisciples is.
It teaches you how to engagethat person physically,
emotionally, spiritually andsocially.
And here's the other pointabout it, which makes it
different, very different.
Even if she chooses theabortion decision, we still are
called to what Help her become adisciple of Jesus Christ, even
(27:03):
in the midst of that.
What did Jesus do when Peteraborted him?
Peter was going back to fishing.
He was like he aborted Jesus,because an abortion is a
rejection of life for your ownlife or for your own
circumstances.
And what did Jesus do?
He restored him.
Do you love me?
Do you love me?
Do you love me?
So the first piece ispre-abortion, which is what
Making Life Disciples is about.
(27:23):
And then the second piece ispost-abortion.
So many people sitting in pewshave had abortions and they
think that they can't be inministry on this, and sometimes
they make an abortion decisionpolitically in terms of how they
vote, because they feel like,how am I going to deny somebody
else having an abortion when Ihad one?
Well, that's why thepost-abortion healing is so
(27:46):
important.
So we have two ministries onecalled Forgiven and Set Free and
the other called ReclaimingFatherhood for Women and for Men
, so that folks who arepost-aborted in churches, in
pews, can be mobilized and betransitioned.
And you know, with Peter, whowas post-aborted when Jesus
restored him, do you love me?
(28:06):
Do you love me?
Do you love me what he became?
An amazing disciple to helpothers follow Christ.
So this is distinctly somethingthat the church is really
called to do.
I mean, those are justpractical ways.
Yeah, that sounds so practical.
Scott D. Allen (28:19):
I can't wait to check it out.
Thanks for putting that out.
Hey, we're running out of timeand let me just again mention
the title of the book theAlternative to Abortion why we
Must Be Pro-Abundant Life.
I want to have all of ourlisteners check that out.
I encourage you to read it.
You can see here the depth ofbiblical thinking that we're
(28:40):
getting from Roland, as well asthese practical resources.
And so, john and Luke, I wantto, just as we kind of close up,
you guys I'm sure havequestions and I just want to
open it to you guys as well.
Sorry that I've been kind ofdominating here.
John Bottimore (28:53):
Not at all, Roland.
Thank you.
This is really really wonderfuland eye-opening for us as well,
even though we've been in thisworld for a long time, and
eye-opening for us as well, eventhough we've been in this world
for a long time.
So your audience is equally thechurch, to prepare the church
to come around people facingthese pregnancy decisions, and
your audience is also the crisiscare centers and pregnancy
(29:15):
centers who obviously are facingpeople at the very moments of
these decisions.
Both then right, Both andAbsolutely.
Roland C. Warren (29:26):
The church is the destination for the folks at
the pregnancy center.
We want them going to the churchfor ongoing support and
discipleship, not back to thecommunity that deal in
fatherhood, motherhood, sex andmarriage of God's design,
because then we see them backagain.
So we want to transition to thechurch, but also, candidly, 54%
of the women that haveabortions profess to be Catholic
(29:46):
or Protestant, and we did anational survey.
We found that four out of 10women having abortions and five
out of 10 men that participatein abortions were attending
church at least monthly at thetime of their first abortion.
So if you don't have a ministryin your church for someone who
wakes up Sunday morning andtakes a pregnancy test and the
test is positive, but they thinkthe news is negative, then
(30:06):
Planned Parenthood and anabortion provider looks like a
compassionate alternative to thechurch, and we don't have that
on-ramp in most churches.
So that's the other reason whymaking life disciples is so
critically important so that thefolks in the church know if I'm
facing a pregnancy decision,there's a ministry here to come
alongside me and meet me at mypoint of need.
John Bottimore (30:27):
Thank you, so practical, you know.
Scott D. Allen (30:29):
I'm hearing a lot, and this was the article
that I read last week to you ondiscipleship of young men,
especially young fathers, whichis a crisis, as you know, in our
own country, especially in theblack community, and it's
heartbreaking Love to have youon again at some point to just
talk about that issue alone,that's something that's super
and I agree we're just nottrying to do it at most
(30:52):
evangelical churches.
It's just not on the radar, it'snot what we measure in terms of
our success.
So I really want to be a partof helping churches kind of
rethink what are we doing hereand what does success look like,
especially with these reallycritical groups that are coming
in, you know, to our doors?
Roland C. Warren (31:11):
Well, let me make one other quick point.
Look, there are only about3,000, roughly 3,000 pregnancy
centers in the entire country.
There's over 350,000 churches,I'd say at least half of them
are life-affirming.
Imagine if the world wasoverturned.
Instead of trying to lean on3,000 pregnancy centers, just
10% of churches were doing thething I'm talking about.
(31:32):
I mean, this is it.
We've been plugged into thepolitics.
See, that's my point.
The pro-life perspective leadsyou to the polls.
The pro-abundant lifeperspective leads you to the
cross.
Gotcha.
And you're supposed to go fromthe cross to the polls, not the
other way around.
So when you start thinkingabout this issue as going to the
cross, then you live out thethe Great Commission and you see
(31:53):
that person facing a pregnancydecision as someone who needs to
become a disciple and you lovethem, if you will.
Scott D. Allen (31:59):
Thanks for making that last comment, though
.
It's not that we you know, it'snot that the political thing is
unimportant, but you're just so.
You're not saying that'sunimportant.
What you're saying is there's apriority here, there's a way
that we have to think about it,a right way and a wrong way of
thinking about this issue.
That's right.
(32:22):
You're supposed to take whatyou learn at the cross to the
polls.
Yeah, I like that.
Yeah, anyway, yeah, listen,ronald, listen.
This has been fantastic.
Let me just again encourage ourlisteners to check out your
book the Alternative to Abortionwhy we Must Be Pro-Abundant,
life and Making Life Disciplesthe resource at
makinglifedisciplescom and justcheck out the website for Care
Net as well, and just learn moreabout this incredible ministry
that Roland is heading up aspresident and CEO.
(32:44):
Roland, thank you so much foryour just incredible ministry
and for just honoring us withyour presence today on our
podcast.
Thank you very much.
I appreciate your interest.
Blessings to you, yeah, godbless you, thank you.
Roland C. Warren (32:52):
Thank you very much.
I appreciate your interest.
Blessings to you.
Scott D. Allen (32:55):
Yeah, god bless you Well, luke and John.
What a terrific discussionthere with with Roland I.
I'm so glad we had a chance tomeet him and it was funny, john,
just at the very end.
You guys, it turns out bothplayed football at university of
Pennsylvania at the same timehe played at Princeton.
John Bottimore (33:15):
I played at Penn , ohsylvania, at the same time.
He played at princeton.
I played at penn oh, okay.
Scott D. Allen (33:19):
Okay, yeah, he was at wharton school there,
okay grad school yeah oh, that'sso funny.
Yeah, you guys will definitelyhave to try to connect, but yeah
, that'd be great, really,really wonderful.
Um, I thought just so manyinsights.
He was coming hot and fast, andso it was.
I was I'll have to was one ofthese podcasts I got to go back
and listen to a couple of timesto absorb a lot of what he was
(33:41):
saying.
I'd love to hear just what youguys, what stood out to you from
what Roland was sharing with usin terms of just the book that
he wrote, the concept, just hiswhole take on abortion and the
work that they're doing at CareNet.
John Bottimore (33:57):
I thought it was very refreshing that it was
focused very much on biblicaltruth and focused on the role of
the church and the role ofcoming alongside the young women
and the young men, women andthe young men.
That abundant life means thatthe church leads, not politics.
(34:21):
And it was very convicting tohear how he was very clear that
an issue such as being pro-lifeis unfortunately on a spectrum
and it shouldn't be on aspectrum.
It's either pro-life or notpro-life.
And the way that he talkedabout the pulpit there's
(34:42):
principles and values andcommands are unchanging from the
pulpit.
That's not true from the podiumand the changing political
landscape.
So he does a really good job ofhaving a framework here that
really takes it first andforemost from the church and the
(35:03):
role of the church first andforemost, before even talking
about politics, and then we cantalk later about the resources
he's got for small groups andchurches and everything, because
so many of us have not facedthis personally in our lives.
So it really is like across-cultural discussion to a
certain degree when we comealongside.
(35:24):
And the other thing that wasvery convicting is this idea of
someone finding out on aSaturday night or whatever that
they've found out that they'vebecome pregnant.
If we're not ready immediatelyand they know where to go at 8
am on Sunday morning.
We have something ready in ourchurch, we have small groups
(35:44):
ready, we have a system ready,then the unfortunate alternative
will be ready and is there,just a call away, an 800 number
call away.
So that's a pretty convictingmessage for us in the church.
Scott D. Allen (35:58):
Yeah, I really agree with that.
Yeah, I'd like to kind of go alittle bit deeper on both of
those tracks John, Hisdiscussion on pro-life, kind of
politically versus in the church, and then the practical side in
the church.
Before we do that, though, Luke, let me have you put on the
table the things that are goingon in the church.
Um, before we do that, though,Luke, what?
Let me let me just have you putput on the table of the things
(36:19):
that are going on in your head.
Luke Allen (36:20):
Yeah, yeah, that was such a great discussion.
It's, um, it's.
This is one of those topicswhere it's so, uh, if you go to
almost any church, we're goingto agree that we're pro-life.
You know, and when he gave thatanalogy at the beginning of the
babies floating down the rivertowards a waterfall, we'll all
agree.
Obviously, as Christians, yougot to pull those babies out of
(36:40):
the river as quickly as you can,of course, save babies.
But his desire to go upstreamand see what's actually getting
these babies in the river, Ithink is the approach we need to
have.
You know, so often it's so easyas Christians to complain about
all these terrible culturalconsequences that we see around
us, whether it's abortion orwhether it's the breakdown of
(37:02):
the family, or whether it's thegender ideologies, confusion in
schools or whatever it is, butthen we stop there, you know.
Let's get back to the ideasthat actually cause these
consequences to happen.
Let's get back to the sourcehere, and so I just love that
message that's so important.
(37:22):
In getting back to the abundantlife and then outlining what
the abundant life looks like, Ithought was really helpful as
well.
For a long time, I think,personally, I was under the
false idea that if we can justlet people know what an abortion
actually is and what'shappening in the womb Christian
(37:43):
or not, everyone in Americawould agree this is wrong.
If we can show them that theheartbeat's actually beating,
you know, at two weeks or threeweeks or whenever they've
actually figured that out now,if we can actually show them
that this is not a clump ofcells, that this is a human
being inside the womb, that justlike you, then we will be able
to solve this problem.
That's not true and,unfortunately, the more and more
(38:04):
science proves that, yes, thisis truly a human being inside of
the mother's womb.
Um, that has not changed theissue for anyone.
Uh, so it's.
It's not a biological questionanymore.
This.
I I'm not exactly sure if thisis true or not, but they did
this survey recently on justAmerica's common humanity and
where it sits today andbasically, um, if this I'm not
(38:28):
exactly sure if this is true,but if it's not, it still serves
serves a point.
Uh, they asked a bunch ofpeople.
It's funny.
It's a similar analogy, the onehe used If you're standing next
to a river and you have a ropewith a lifesaver in your hand
and you see someone floatingdown the river in front of you,
total stranger.
You don't know them, but there'sa waterfall right there.
Are you going to throw them therope to pull them out?
But right behind them is yourfavorite dog floating down the
(38:51):
river.
Are you going to save the dogor the person?
You only can save one.
They asked this to a bunch ofpeople.
Uh, they split it down bygenerations.
They noticed that in oldergenerations 60 plus the vast
majority of people said save therandom stranger over my, my dog
, that I love.
Younger generations said I'mgonna save, I would save the dog
.
Scott D. Allen (39:11):
the majority of them said that that's crazy well
that's crazy, if that's true, Ithink it is uh.
It's uh the name of our podcast.
Ideas have consequences andit's just the shifting
understanding of what it meansto be human and the value of
human.
We don't value human lifeanymore though we're, we're not.
Luke Allen (39:28):
We don't have a common humanity as far as the
way we value it.
That's crazy and of coursethat's going to play into the
pro-life issue I mean you canuse all the arguments and logic
you want.
As far as biology goes, of whata human?
Is yeah, that's right that'snot going to convince people no,
but a human, a human is just.
Scott D. Allen (39:43):
I mean, we've been taught over and over we're
just animals, right?
So, in effect, there is novalue difference between the dog
and the person.
That's what people have beentaught for years now.
You know, and it's just, it'sjust, it's just a it's just so,
of course.
John Bottimore (39:56):
Yeah, it's just so thin.
Yeah, it's being increasinglytrue, both at the beginning of
life and end of life issues nowtoo, that we see this.
So what an abundant life is.
Luke Allen (40:06):
If the Christians, if the church, can define that
well and champion that idea,hopefully we can have the
consequences of that down theroad of a restored understanding
of the human.
So I think that's the rightquestion to be asking right now.
John Bottimore (40:23):
Yeah, well, he called it heartbeats that are
heaven-bound, and obviously wecan see that from a Christian
standpoint and understand whatthat means and understand what
that joyous eternal end is forus when we're believers.
But the message to theunconverted about heartbeats
that are heaven-bound we have toconsider what that really is.
Scott D. Allen (40:44):
I, too, really appreciated the distinction
between you know, there's thevalue of all life, because all
people are created by God in Hisimage.
It's their priceless right, allhuman life is priceless.
But then he went on and he saidbut then there's eternal life
(41:05):
right, the life that comes frombeing born again.
You know, when Paul talks aboutthis in Ephesians, you were
dead in your trespasses and yoursins, and then you know, god
made you alive, right?
So there is this rebirth, andthat's what I was hearing him
say in terms of abundant life.
And he used the two Greek wordsI remember the second one was
(41:26):
zoe and I can't remember thename of the first one, but I
thought that was very Bios orbios.
Bios, yeah, very profound.
And I just heard him make anappeal to say, hey, life has to
encompass both of these things.
As Christians we know that,especially if we're committed to
evangelism.
I mean, that's the heartbeatbehind evangelism you need to be
born again.
But yeah, that somehow hasn'tmaybe penetrated as deeply into
(41:49):
the pro-life movement as itought to, and I heard him making
an appeal to that, which Ithought was profound.
I want to go back to thepolitical thing, john, again,
because when he first startedtalking about that I got a
little concerned.
I almost heard him.
You know it seemed to like kindof demean the political side of
this.
And you know he, for example,you know, I think when we first
(42:15):
started talking about it, hetalked about how the you know,
politicians that are pro-lifemight be trying to push
legislation that limits abortionafter a certain number of weeks
, you know, and call that apro-life type of legislation,
and somehow that was wrong, thatyou needed to be kind of a
(42:36):
purist even in the politicalrealm.
This is what I was at leastinitially thinking he was saying
and I heard Christians in thislast election, because we do
think I think he's right about,we tend to think as Christians,
about abortion in that kind ofpolitical framework maybe too
much.
But I heard Christians say well, I can't vote for Donald Trump
(43:00):
because he doesn't support lifefrom conception.
He would be in favor of laws orlegislation that would limit
abortion after a certain numberof weeks, but he wouldn't have
that perfect kind of puristposition and I always thought,
you know, it's important forChristians, as he was saying,
(43:22):
the church, the pulpit, to havethat like voice, that all human
life, no matter you know how itwas conceived, what color, what
you know station in life,poverty, whatever it is all
human life is sacred and it'spriceless from the time of
conception.
Like that's the strong, clearmessage.
(43:44):
But then politicians have towork to pass legislation in a
country where not everyonebelieves that and you just have
to make incremental gains.
I mean, I think of people likeWilliam Wilberforce.
He's a politician, a Christian,and he had to make incremental
gains on the abolition ofslavery.
It just didn't—he couldn't comein there as a purist and say
abolish it all.
You know, it just wasn't goingto happen.
(44:05):
And that's just a confusionover politics.
Right To be a Christian inpolitics means you can't—you
know it's not the same messageas it is from the Pope it is.
But then you've got to takeincremental gains and I've often
thought, gosh, if we could atleast get to, you know, limit
abortion after X number of weeks, because we have one of the in
the United States, one of themost horrific, you know, roe v
(44:27):
Wade was.
You know there was no limit onit.
And when they put us in thecategory of countries like North
Korea and China, very fewcountries had no limits on
abortion.
And so, gosh, if we could atleast make some headway on that.
But I think he came back at theend of it and said no, politics
is important and it's important, but this has been an area
(44:54):
where we could have kind ofprobed a little bit further.
This can't just be a politicaldiscussion.
Luke Allen (45:00):
I think that's what I heard him say kind of strongly
, but it wasn't.
It wasn't discounting yeah, goahead.
I wasn't hearing him say thatat first.
I was just hearing him say thatwhen you label yourself
pro-life, it means you're on abroad spectrum, and a broad
spectrum not of what you'regoing to pass legislatively, but
of why you're pro-life.
And some people are pro-lifebecause they believe in, yeah,
the image of God, the Imago Dei,life, because they believe in,
yeah, the image of god, theimago dei, and all that.
That means an abundant life.
And other people are pro-lifebecause it gets more votes, or
it's what all their friends saythey are, or you know, the why
(45:23):
has nothing to do with humanlife and the value of human life
.
It just has to do withsomething else.
It's.
It's not a, it's a politicalissue, not a moral issue.
That's.
That's more of what I washearing.
I don't know.
John Bottimore (45:36):
Yeah, I thought so too, the the practicality of
it of.
Of course, if we want toprotect as many lives as
possible, and if that has tohappen on kind of an incremental
gain basis, then that's notideal but it's better than that.
But that's politics, I meanthat's, that's also it also,
obviously, that the path toreally changing is not political
(45:59):
.
The path to really changing isthe hearts and minds, absolutely
, and that happens person byperson and church by church.
Scott D. Allen (46:06):
And again, 350,000 churches have a lot of
reach to their own members andto society as a whole, and it's
such a fundamental thing yeahyou know it's such a good point,
john, and I'm going back toWilberforce and you know he
(46:28):
would, I think, firmly agreewith you that you know, and that
the issue there was theemancipation of slavery, the
ending of the slave trade.
That couldn't happenpolitically in England until
people's hearts and mindschanged, and so he was very
aware of that and he also sawthat as the role largely of the
church and that's why he workedso closely with Whitefield and
(46:49):
Wesley in that great revival,because that was actually
changing hearts and minds.
That kind of laid thefoundation then for political
solutions and legislation.
It couldn't have happenedwithout it.
So I think you're spot on andjust important for us to
remember but not to pit thesethings against each other.
I don't like that, don't dothat, Don't do that.
(47:13):
We've got essential roles toplay, right, you know, both in
politics, but also probably morefundamentally and I agree this
is more fundamental in thepulpit, in the church, changing
hearts and minds, yeah.
John Bottimore (47:26):
Right, and I think he rightly was elevating
it, not pitting it, but moreelevating the role of the church
and the role of education anddiscipleship.
And again, both to the motherand the father, it's so critical
and people coming around themand such, so that's just really
really critical to see a changein this important issue.
(47:50):
And yeah, and he also talkedabout this curriculum for small
groups making life disciples.
Scott D. Allen (48:01):
Yeah, let's go there, John, because he clearly
has a heart for the local churchand the critical role for the
local church to play in the lifeissue and I was so grateful to
hear that.
Very practical resources aswell.
You know, think about your ownsmall group.
I'm thinking of my small group,honestly, you know.
Okay, so what can we do?
You know, Luke, what did youhear on that side of things,
Because I thought that wasterrific.
Luke Allen (48:22):
Yeah, I mean very practically.
I think at our church thereactually is a group that is.
It's a group that meets withyoung mothers who are
experiencing unplannedpregnancies and just walking
with them through the ninemonths and just encouraging them
, um, towards towards the truth,um.
So I have a couple of friendsthat are a part of that and I'd
(48:44):
like to get more involved inthat, uh and I.
That's something our smallgroup could easily do.
Um, I mean these, a lot ofthese, uh, pregnancy resource
centers are.
They're ready to go Like they,they have a mission and a drive
and they have a vision.
What they need is help, and alot of them just just need more,
more resources and help, and Iwould say probably more more
(49:07):
hands-on help than justresources.
Giving resources is easy we'reAmericans, we have plenty of
that but what?
What can we do?
Scott D. Allen (49:15):
you know, hands-on, yes, that's much
harder and come around them aschurches, you know, with the
resources of the church, notjust again, not just money, but
just the manpower resources ofthe church.
John Bottimore (49:29):
Yeah, I think we've seen the maturity and the
offerings that come from thesecrisis pregnancy centers and all
now to again to talk about therole of the man in the decision
and to work all of that.
It's not just the baby, it'sthe mother and the baby and it's
the man as well, and so it'sreally, really important to look
(49:52):
at that full kind of a decisionand all in this and we know,
and many of them do this is theyreally look back and look at
the emotional damage that's donepost-abortion some people for
the rest of their lives and alland so that's so, so important
(50:15):
that they understand this, notas a sudden decision to make now
, but something that has such animpact for their lives, the
rest of the future and obviously, to the life of the unborn
preeminently.
Scott D. Allen (50:30):
Well, we like to leave our listeners, luke, as
you know, with practicaltakeaways, and I feel like I
personally have some from thisconversation, you know, because
it's something that I've beenwrestling with what can I do
here in Bend, deschutes County,because it's such a dire
situation here, you know, it'sjust heartbreaking.
You know what's happening righthere in our backyards.
(50:54):
And so, yeah, he left us withsome great practical ideas that
churches can do and, like yousay, luke, our church has some
great things already going on,and so a step for me is to learn
more about that and thenpossibly plug in the small, you
know, group, community group to,you know, the Crisis Pregnancy
Centers here locally.
I'm going to check outmakinglifedisciplescom, so hope
(51:22):
all of our listeners will, allof you guys will do the same
Kind of what can you do?
How can we be part of thesolution to this gravest of all
you know threats to human lifein our own country, the United
States, and really around theworld?
What can we do?
What practical things, whatsteps can we take?
What's God calling us to do,luke, john, final thoughts, wrap
up here.
Luke Allen (51:44):
I loved what he said about Joseph, and I know a lot
of Josephs and I'm a Joseph, andfor a long time.
There's that argument that youcan't talk about being pro-life
if you're a man because youdon't experience this.
That's totally false and menhave a huge part to play in this
(52:04):
.
His resource ReclaimingFatherhood I'm curious to look
into and learn a little bit moreabout that, and just
encouraging young men around meon how to embrace their role as
Joseph is a takeaway for meSuper, super good Luke.
Scott D. Allen (52:19):
I thought that was so powerful too.
Yeah, just kind of, here's acrisis pregnancy.
You know you don't think ofJesus, you know, for Mary and
Joseph, as a crisis pregnancy,but it certainly was.
You know this was this createda crisis for Mary and Joseph.
You know you go back and readthose accounts.
I mean, this was not an easything and it was a crisis for
(52:42):
both of them that they had towalk through Same thing.
John Bottimore (52:46):
The role of the man in all of this is so, so, so
critical and obviously inpreventing this crisis in the
first place, with appropriaterelationships and honor, and all
before marriage.
So that's beautiful.
Scott D. Allen (53:04):
Yeah, thanks guys.
This has been great.
What a great discussion.
Luke, thanks for your work andkind of setting it all up.
Really grateful for you and forall of our listeners.
Thank you, we really appreciateyou tuning in and appreciate
you sharing about the podcastwith your friends as well.
We are the Disciple NationsAlliance and this is our podcast
(53:25):
.
Ideas have Consequences.
Thank you, thank you.
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