Truth or Lies? Learn to Analyze Hot Topics Like BLM and AI

From the rise of AI to movements like Black Lives Matter, and whatever the next big issue will be, Christians face a world filled with compelling but deceptive narratives and trends. We believe this is a major weakness in the Church today—but it doesn't have to be. Christians must develop a comprehensive biblical worldview to navigate the pressing issues of our time with wisdom and conviction.

In this episode, we explore:

• Why we must look beyond surface-level branding to uncover deeper worldview assumptions
• The importance of examining a movement’s fruit and the beliefs of its founders
• The reality that good and evil run through every human heart—not between groups
• How modern ideologies often strip people of personal agency and responsibility
• The need for Christians to ask deeper questions about cultural norms and practices
• How cultural definitions of words often differ from biblical meanings
• Why critical thinking requires evaluating the worldview behind policies and movements
• The truth that the gospel is about more than personal salvation—it speaks to every area of life and culture

Want to learn more? Watch our 4-minute video on YouTube: "Why Does Your Worldview Matter?"

• View the transcript, leave comments, and check out recommended resources on the Episode Landing Page!

Episode Transcript

Scott Allen (00:03):
We have to understand Christianity, our
faith, not as a message ofspiritual salvation alone.
It certainly encompasses thatand that's foundational to it,
but it is a comprehensiveworldview that's full of all
kinds of principles that answerall the big questions about who
we are, who's God, what happensafter life, what's the purpose

(00:23):
of life.
We have to understand all ofthat.
We've gotten out of thepractice of doing that.
We haven't valued that or seenthat as important, much less
saying that.
That's not just important to me, but that's something that I
actually need to steward,shepherd, try to bring into the
culture around me, because it'swhat's going to change the
culture in positive ways,because there's all sorts of

(00:44):
lies, these destructive lies outthere that are going to destroy
it.
So we have to actually go onmission with these things.
We have a lot of work to do.

Luke Allen (00:58):
Hi friends, welcome to Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world, to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.

(01:18):
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.

Scott Allen (01:38):
Welcome again, everyone, to another episode of
Ideas have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen, I'm thepresident of the DNA and I'm
joined today by my twoco-workers and friends, Dwight
Vogt, Luke Allen, and we'rekeeping it in-house today.
Guys, it's good to see you.

Dwight Vogt (01:53):
Good morning.

Scott Allen (01:54):
Scott, good morning to you as well.
Yeah, we thought this morningwe would talk about truth and
lies.
This is obviously a major themeof the DNA that truth exists
because God exists, he's real,he created a real world and he
created it in a particular way.
He defines what is true andbecause he is good, his truth is
good, and living in alignmentwith his truth leads to life, it

(02:17):
leads to flourishing.
And, of course, we have anadversary, satan, who steals and
kills and destroys, and he useslies to do that lies and
deception.
So it's important for us to beable to kind of navigate at any
time between these things, andit's often very difficult to do
and so we thought we'd just talka little bit today about how,

(02:39):
how do you approach that, how doyou seek and try to live in the
truth, understand the truth,discern it, if you will, in a
culture that's full of lies, andoften lies that are very
difficult to see or difficult todiscern.
We have some thoughts on thatand I'm looking forward to

(03:01):
hearing what you guys have tosay about that as well.
Hopefully, what we'll do todayis just give our listeners some
tools, some ways of thinking,kind of how to approach this.
Not that we're experts here.
We are obviously learners and Ihave a lot to learn.
I kind of thought one way wecould approach this guys today
is just by kind of looking atwhat happened here recently in

(03:22):
the United States and in Westerncultures more broadly and
really I guess it's reallyaround the world, but it's
particularly in the West with awhole host of lies and
deceptions that kind of, youknow, can be bundled under
what's now called woke ideology.
This came into culture in amassive way in 2016, 18, 20,

(03:46):
particularly just almost feltlike a revolution, and it came
right into the church as well.
And that's what I kind of wantto focus on, because you had a
lot of ideas that many of themin very profound ways didn't
align with biblical truth, butthey came right into the church.
How did that happen?
How can we help Christians tobe more kind of discerning?

(04:08):
So we could look at any topichere or any kind of issue in the
culture, but I thought this onemight be a good way to kind of
start and maybe to get usstarted.
You know, I thought you know weoften talk thank you, dara
Miller about this idea ofparadigm or worldview, kind of

(04:29):
the deepest level of ideas,ideas that answer the big
questions, paradigm, and thatparadigm shapes principles, kind
of general truths, and thosegeneral truths lead into
policies and practices.
You know, which you can kind ofsee At that level.
It's not just what's insomebody's head, but it's what

(04:49):
they're doing.
You know, it's something thatthey are putting into practice,
or they're saying they intend toput into practice in the form
of a policy or whatever it is,and then yeah, and then the
consequences of that you know.
So this is a framework I thinkis really relevant to this topic
as well.
But you know, back to the wokeideology, you know when it first

(05:11):
came in, I first became kind ofaware of it when, with the
arrival of a group called BlackLives Matter, and again, this
was way before 2020.
I mean, this must have been2016.
I remember first being aware ofit when I forget her name now
Michelle Higgins was invited tospeak from the platform of

(05:32):
InterVarsity ChristianFellowships, urbana, you know,
big missions conference, and shewas representing Black Lives
Matter and that was the wholefocus of her talk was on Black
Lives Matter, black Lives Matter, and that was the whole focus
of her talk was on Black LivesMatter.
And I just thought you know, ofcourse, what is Black Lives
Matter and what it is just onthe surface is it's a brand,

(06:00):
right?
This is a really clever brandbecause it's communicating, just
, you know, on its surface, thatblack lives matter.
Who could disagree with that?
Right?
Who would dare, actually, Ishould say, disagree with that?
And that was the cleverness ofit, because if you, you know, if
you called it into question atall, you know, then that was
going to put you in the positionof being potentially a racist.
So very clever, you know, ifyou want, you know, very clever

(06:23):
form of branding.
I thought that right away, Ithought, wow, you know.
But then I kind of waswondering, well, what's the
issue?
Because if I go to any group ofpeople anywhere and I ask them
the question do you think BlackLives Matter?
I mean, I don't think I wouldever run into a single one that
would say, no, I disagree, blacklives don't matter.
Everyone agrees that black livesmatter.

(06:44):
So what's the issue thatthey're trying to?
You know what?
You know, this is clearly akind of a social movement and
organization.
What are they?
What's their issue?
What are they trying?
You know, they must assume thatkind of the assumption behind
it is there's a bunch of peopleout there that think black lives
don't matter.
So we've got to fight for thisidea that black lives matter.
I think at that level ofmarketing, branding Christians

(07:05):
in the church never got anydeeper than that.
It was like well, of coursewe've got to support this
movement because I believe thatBlack Lives Matter that's what
it says.
Black Lives Matter what do youthink?
In other words, they didn't askdeeper questions like what do
they practice?
What are their policies?
What's the deeper thing?

(07:25):
It just never got below thebranding, the marketing, the
packaging, yeah.

Dwight Vogt (07:32):
I can tell you my own experience, as I just
listened to you, scott.

Luke Allen (07:35):
Yeah.

Dwight Vogt (07:38):
And I had the same.
It's like, of course, blackLives Matter.
I mean, yes, they matter, andmy first thought was yes, and I
lived in the 60s matter.
I mean, yes, they matter, andmy first thought was yes, and
you know, I was through, I livedin the sixties, I saw, you know
, we went through that wholeperiod of of of race racism and
the civil rights bill, and I waslike yes, yes, yes.
And and you know, I don't livein a I mean, I live in a white

(07:58):
environment.
So it was like, wow, okay, ifthere are still, if there's
still racism, I mean there isracism and we should always be
fighting against it.
Yes, that's what I want to beabout and I am about.
So what's wrong here?
But then there's a sense ofwell, wait, what is wrong?
And something's in your heart,you go.
Well, I'm not sure Somethingfeels wrong.
And at that point, because I'min the DNA, because I know

(08:22):
Darrell Miller, you start to gowell, what's going on underneath
?

Scott Allen (08:27):
here.
Yeah, what's under the hood.
What's under the hood?

Dwight Vogt (08:31):
And then I think of Daryl's glasses and I realize
that, no matter who we are inthe world, we have culture.
We look through our culturallenses, we look through our
glasses, and I wear glasses, soI don't know that I have them on
.
I'm looking at you guys rightnow and I don't see my glasses,
and so, by nature, I'm notanalyzing what's under the hood,
I just I look through myworldview, I look at life and I

(08:52):
interpret it, but, that beingsaid, I go.
Something's not right here, andthat's where I think, as
Christians, we have the ability,through the Bible, god's word
and his spirit, to go.
Is there something going onhere that's bigger than just the
?

Luke Allen (09:08):
obvious, which is I shouldn't be.

Dwight Vogt (09:11):
racism is wrong and black lives matter, which they
do, and that's where you go into.
Well, now we're looking atwhat's the worldview that's
driving it and what is at theessence of that worldview, and I
think that's yeah, perfect.

Scott Allen (09:23):
We need to be better at that.
Yeah, we have to be, and Itotally agree.
So that's I think the firstlesson is that whatever the
packaging or the branding is be,especially if it sounds really
good, like who could be againstthat?
I mean, we're talking a lotmore about diversity, equity and
inclusion right now.
Again, that's a packaging,that's a branding and it sounds

(09:44):
really good.
I mean, who in the world couldbe against being for diversity
and equality and inclusion?
I mean, come on, you know, butwe have to.
Okay, the principle biblicallyis that Satan disguises his lies
right with In truth.
What's that In truth?
Yeah, in truth he does.

Luke Allen (10:04):
Or just, you know, he comes across as an angel of
light and so we should always bea little bit aware that, if it
sounds really good.

Scott Allen (10:12):
It might not be, you know.
Let's look below the surface,as you were saying, dwight, and
I think well before we go into,kind of, how we look below the
surface, luke, any thoughts juston this kind of issue of
branding packaging.
Because I do think I think itreally did pose a problem for a
lot of people in the church.
They just kind of bought ityeah.

Luke Allen (10:29):
I mean, here's the fact of the matter.
All great lies are probably 90%truth.
You know no one's going to fallfor the very obvious lies, so
any good marketer knows that.
Still try to hook them with allthe good components.
Yeah, I was actually writingabout this yesterday Just the

(10:50):
effects of the age ofinformation on the way that
humans process knowledge, youknow, and ideas.
And we truly live in the age ofinformation, especially since
social media's advent.
Information's at our fingertipslike never before in history.
Um, we, it's just such anunbelievable overload and with

(11:12):
all that, the temptation is tothink, wow, I'm so smart because
I know so much.
And uh, proverbs does a reallygood job.
I think, of differentiatingwisdom from just knowing a lot,
and there's a huge differencebetween listening to wise people
and being wise yourself.
Becoming wise, there's a hugedifference between knowing a lot
about what's going on in theworld and being a critical

(11:33):
thinker.
There's a big difference betweenseeing something on the news
and then internally processing.
Is this right?
Is this wrong?
Where's the truth, where's thelies In the information age,
what social media tries to do?
Because social media, as we allknow, is made up of short clips
out of context, lacking nuance.
It's all about catching youremotions and trying to force an

(11:53):
opinion on you.
If you don't stop and think andprocess what's going on here,
what's the deeper meaning?
You're just going to get caughtup in the flow.

Scott Allen (12:00):
Totally, and it's so easy to do that, and I like
that you brought up emotionshere, luke too, because the
branding, that part of it,really does appeal to emotion.
Oh, yeah.
And it can be positive andnegative.

Dwight Vogt (12:11):
Every good lie appeals to the emotions, right,
right.

Scott Allen (12:13):
That's why we buy them.
Yeah, and in this case I thinkit was almost a negative one
that if I ever said that I wasagainst Black Lives Matter, or
even hinted at that, my friendswould think I'm a racist.
And that's a real fear, right?
That's social stigmatization, Ican't, you know.
I remember when the whole Floydthing came out and you had to
post that Black Lives Matterthing on social media and if you
didn't, your friends kind ofcalled you out.

(12:34):
Hey, I noticed you haven'tposted this on your social media
.
We got calls from the DNA.
How come DNA hasn't put up theBlack Lives Matter symbol, you
know, on its website or whateverit was?
You know, it was just such fearof social.

Luke Allen (12:50):
I've got to do it or else I'm going to be
stigmatized.
So yeah, anyway, sorry to riffon that a little bit.
Yeah, I'm just thinking ofother examples too, like we
might talk about AI at the endof the discussion here and this
whole talk about the potentialof a future with universal basic
income.
That sounds great.
That's good branding Universalbasic income.
There goes poverty right.
That's kind of your firstinstinct.

Dwight Vogt (13:05):
So we've raised one example.
Yeah, let's go deeper, dwight,I'm just thinking, go ahead.

Scott Allen (13:13):
If you don't mind, I'll lead us to the next level,
because ultimately you want toget down to what is at the
deepest level.
What's the paradigm, what's theworldview?
But the thing is you can'toften tell immediately.
But, like you were saying,dwight, you know you should.
The first thing is you shouldquestion it, you should say
something.
I want to know what's going ondeeper.
What's going on deeper?
And I see that it's doing.

(13:33):
What's Black Lives Matteractually doing, where people are
putting it into practice, orwhat policies is it championing?
So that's the first level.
You can actually kind of seethat.
And so two examples here.

(13:54):
When I started thinkingcritically about it, I said the
people.
First, at the level of practice,one thing I noticed right away
is that the proponents of BlackLives Matter, the big champions,
also were putting into practicesegregation, which I thought
was very odd.
They were practicingsegregation, and so they wanted
separate dorms, for example, forblacks and whites.

(14:16):
They wanted separate graduationceremonies.
A lot of this was happening oncollege campuses, but it was
spilling over.
Even churches started sayingmaybe we should have separate
services for blacks and whites,and so it was leading to a
practice of segregation.
And then, in terms of itspolicies.
I just went on their website atone point.
I, you know, went on the BlackLives Matter website to see what
was it.

(14:36):
You know, what was it promotingin terms of policy?
And there I saw things likereparations.
You know that blacks are owedreparations by whites because of
slavery.
That's a clear policy.
I saw that, you know, thedeconstruction of the family.
That was kind of very clear andthat led to a bunch of
questions for me.

(14:56):
Okay, that's the next thing.
Okay, why?
Why?
So you know, when you ask that,why question, you're always
going down deeper.
And that's what you want to dogo down deeper.
Why is it leading tosegregation?
Why reparations?
And then the answers that I wasgetting on that let's just take
segregation here.
Was that the kind of the idea?
If you ask people about thatwas well, if you get blacks and

(15:17):
whites together in any socialsetting, eventually white people
will.
You know, they're just kind ofgoing to use power and
manipulation and coercion inoften very polite ways, but
they're going to get their way,you know.
And so for blacks to have a,they need a space where it's
kind of unpolluted by whitepeople, who are always white.

(15:39):
People, are always just kind ofgaming the system to work
things out in their favor, kindof gaming the system to work
things out in their favor.
And I thought, okay, wow, okay.
So now we're getting down tothe level of beliefs, some deep
beliefs, right, just from thatpractice.
The practice was segregation,but the beliefs were now

(15:59):
starting to come into focus forme.
And, well, before I go on tothe beliefs, let's just talk
about the practices and policieslevel there.
Yeah, dwight, you're about tosay something.

Dwight Vogt (16:09):
Yeah, let me react to that.
Scott.
Again, I remember how I felt.
Right, I thought, okay, thereare different cultures.
And having grown up in food forthe hungry and the DNA and
traveled globally andexperienced culture, I was like,
yes, cultures are great,cultures are wonderful.
There are cultural expressionsand we need to support them.
And I thought so, the idea of ablack culture expressing itself

(16:31):
, or Native American or Hispanicculture expressing itself in my
country.
I said that's a good thing.

Scott Allen (16:36):
Yeah, it's beautiful.
That's a good thing.

Dwight Vogt (16:38):
And I, you know, people say, well, we have to
have mixed worship service.
I'm going no, I actually likemy worship service and it's
different from some other.
I mean, I don't go to anAnglican church or a Catholic
church or a Pentecostal church.
I go to my church because it'sthe culture I feel comfortable
with.
But then I went wait a minute,there's something this is more
than culture and I thought thisis actually creating a sense of

(16:59):
division in my heart towardsothers when I hear this.
It was creating division.
You use the word segregation,which is division, for no reason
.

Scott Allen (17:09):
Yeah, that's what segregation is.
It's just dividing, separating.
It's just saying that person isnot like me.

Dwight Vogt (17:13):
Right, and that's different from that culture.
It's not like my culture orthat culture differs in this way
.
That's a different thing thanhuman division.

Scott Allen (17:19):
Yeah, and it went even deeper than that,
dwightight.
There was a whole level of notjust different but but in the
case of people with white skin,worse, you know, and well there
was that whole there?
Was that whole level of?

Luke Allen (17:31):
they are, they are they're manipulative.

Scott Allen (17:34):
They're power hungry, they that you know
they're, if you get them if theyhave their way.
They're just going to colonizethe world and control everyone
and so there was that level of,of, of, of not just different,
but worse, and and not and andworse and better, right, Worse
and better.
That's what I was getting at.
So worse and better.
And then another belief was youcan determine, you can put

(17:54):
people into those groups ofworse and better based on
something like the skin color.
Okay, I thought, whoa, okay.

Dwight Vogt (18:00):
So now, that's what I'm getting at.
It's like it's not justcreating difference or
identifying the difference.
It's saying there is good andthere is bad yeah, there's good,
that's good and this is bad.
You they're good, you're bad.
And I remember a, an africanpastor in sudan.
We're talking and he realizedthat that there were tribal
differences between his tribeand another tribe in south sudan

(18:21):
, but he had grown up to knowthat that difference was bad.
That tribe was a bad tribe, histribe was a good tribe.

Luke Allen (18:26):
So this is not just difference.

Scott Allen (18:28):
And I think that's.

Dwight Vogt (18:29):
I felt that happening.

Scott Allen (18:30):
You felt that no, well for sure.
And now you have to begin to.
This is where the discernmentabout the truth comes in,
because you have to ask thequestion yeah, there is right.
What is true about this?
You know what?
What is the dividing linebetween good and evil?
is there is there good and evilin the world, you know?
Is there good and bad?
What?
How?
How is that divided?

(18:50):
Because this is this is, youknow, this is saying, yes, there
is good and evil, but it'sdividing it in a particular way.
And is that the right way thatwe divide good and evil?
I mean that, that so we have toask questions of truth and lies
at this point here, like yeah,that's where then you enter what
I would say is a worldviewlevel of thinking.
You're into the worldview levelnow.

Dwight Vogt (19:10):
Does the Bible say this ethnicity is bad and this
one's good?
No, no, no, no, no, ever no, itdoes not, it never says that?

Scott Allen (19:18):
No, what does it say?
That's a lie.

Dwight Vogt (19:21):
Now we can say that's a lie right when you
divide good and evil based onethnicity, that's a lie.

Luke Allen (19:25):
And not only is that a lie, that's a very deadly lie
.

Scott Allen (19:27):
Let me just say that's one of the most deadly
lies in world history.
Go ahead, Dwight, yeah.

Dwight Vogt (19:31):
No, yeah, no.
The Bible says that the heartis deceitful and desperately
wicked.

Scott Allen (19:39):
Who can know it?

Dwight Vogt (19:40):
truth, that's the truth, because you're part of
the Allen clan, you're a goodheart, and I'm part of the vote
clan, so I'm a bad heart, youknow.

Scott Allen (19:46):
Yeah, that's a really demonic lie.
Let me just kind of underscorethat.
And I was seeing that like, oh,this is a demonic lie that's
coming up into you and it isbecause, once you think that way
, if you allow that thought toget into your head and that
becomes part of the reality thatyou live on, the consequence,
the obvious consequences you'regoing to look to destroy the

(20:08):
Houthis are going to destroy theTutsis, the Nazis are going to
destroy the Jews.
That's just what you do, right,that's what happens.

Dwight Vogt (20:14):
That is the essence of anti-Semitism.
Exactly, it's not based on oh,that Jewish person does this and
thinks this way, it's like no,they are bad, they're a Jew, and
so Hitler said we should killthem.

Scott Allen (20:27):
So for the Christian, we have to go okay,
this is not just a lie, this isa really deadly lie, and we have
to set ourselves out to kind ofoppose it, you know, to counter
it.
And again, luke, what's thetruth that we're trying to
counter this one with?

Luke Allen (20:46):
I mean, what do we need to say clearly on this one?
That all humans are created inthe image of God.

Scott Allen (20:49):
Yeah, and then you know right, there's, we are also
all sinners.
You know right, that line, asSolzhenitsyn said, that divides
good and evil runs through everyhuman heart.
So we don't draw that linebetween groups.
And that's what I was seeingwith this Black Lives Matter, is
they're drawing the linebetween groups and not through
every human heart.
And I thought, okay, this isreally dangerous here, yeah.

Dwight Vogt (21:10):
And it is both of those truths, I mean, that's the
strength of the truth that, yes, everyone is evil and everyone
is an image bearer of the holyGod, the creator of the universe
.

Scott Allen (21:19):
Right.
So there's that lie.
I think another lie that thencomes out of this one is that
people can be, let's just say,determined what's the word I'm
looking for?
Their identity can be entirelyunderstood in terms of these
kind of external factors.
Like all that I need to knowabout you, I can understand,

(21:42):
through your skin color, allthat.
I need to know about you.
I can understand through yourskin color, and that is also,
you know, just kind of a verydangerous lie, right?
Or your gender, or whatever itis right.
That's all that matters aboutyou, and particularly about you.
Know, when it comes to definingyou as good or evil, then you
know.
What we have to say asChristians is what's the truth?

(22:02):
Right, yeah, there is adiversity.
We have a diversity of genderand sex, and all this diversity
that God created, right, butthat ultimately doesn't—and
here's the—what's the truth onthis one.
That doesn't define us.
That shapes us, right, we'reshaped, but we're not defined by
those things.
We're defined by the fact thatGod made us in his image, as you
said, luke.
I mean, that's the deepdefining thing that we're

(22:28):
children of God, created in hisdivine image.
All of us, regardless of thoseI call those secondary kind of
things.

Luke Allen (22:33):
Hey guys, I wanted to tell you about one of our
most helpful resources here atthe Disciple Nations Alliance at
least in my opinion and it's avideo about how to understand
what a worldview is, why itmatters and the importance of
understanding a biblicalworldview.
Luckily for you, this video isonly four and a half minutes
long and it is available forfree right on our YouTube

(22:54):
channel, and it is titled whyDoes your Worldview Matter?
So if you have a few minutesright after this episode, or you
can really just pause thisepisode right now and go give it
a watch, I think you'll reallyfind it helpful again in
understanding what a worldviewis, why it matters and the
importance of understanding abiblical worldview, because
unfortunately, as Christians, wedon't just automatically get a

(23:14):
biblical worldview when webecome Christians, so it's
something that we need to bediscipled in and grow in as we
learn to start to see everythingthrough biblical principles.
Again, that video is on ourYouTube and it's also linked in
the description.
Thanks again, guys, for yourtime today and I hope you enjoy
the rest of the episode.

Dwight Vogt (23:36):
And it's underpinned by reality, I was
involved in the outreach summermissions program at Biola and
I'm sure you guys went onmissions as well.
The most interesting thing, notfunniest but people would come
back from working in refugeecamps or working in villages and
poverty situations and they'dgo and for different cultures
and they'd go and they're justlike me.

(23:58):
I realize that person is justlike me.
I'm going.
Yep, we're all just like me.

Scott Allen (24:04):
Exactly.

Dwight Vogt (24:05):
And that was like a mind blower.
It's like, oh God is right hereally did make all of us in his
image.

Scott Allen (24:10):
But what did they mean, dwight, just unpack that a
little bit, because clearlythey're not just like you.
Well, no, what they meant?

Dwight Vogt (24:16):
was that the essence of being human?

Scott Allen (24:20):
is there's something deeper.

Dwight Vogt (24:22):
It's what God made us the clothes the food, the
ethnic customs, exactly, we'rehuman beings, first and foremost
, yeah, made in the image of God, and so we reflect his
character, we reflect his naturerational, emotional, physical,
spiritual, and think about howgood these truths are because
they create a unity, afoundation for community, for

(24:46):
respect, right.

Scott Allen (24:47):
You know, regardless of all the
differences, you can have this.
You know this deeper and moreprofound respect and love for
people you know, and yetappreciate diversity.
And yet appreciate diversity.
Exactly, exactly.
And holding those two thingstogether again is just one of
the great beautiful pillars of abiblical worldview and very—no
other let me just say it reallystarkly no other worldview holds

(25:10):
them together.
No, no, no, you have to go oneway or the other, exactly
exactly.
And that's what—back to theBlack Lives Matter thing—that's
what it was doing.
So it was— you know it wasdefining people based on these
secondary characteristics ofskin color and defining them in
moral ways.
You're bad, you know, you'regood.

(25:31):
And this is where I think a lotof people in the United States
started really getting first.
I mean the upset, like you know, especially when it came to
education, because this wasgetting taught to kids.
You're teaching my kid thatthey're good or bad based on
skin color.
Like that's so wrong, you knowso good.
Bad based on skin color Likethat's so wrong, you know, so

(25:52):
good.
One other worldview implicationthat came out of this one was,
you know, the idea that you knowwe talked about a few.
Right, you could kind of lumppeople together sociologically.
You know, in terms of theseexternal factors, you know, like
skin color, that good and evil,the line that separates good
and evil, doesn't run, you know,through every human heart.
We're not all fallen, butcertain groups are evil and
certain groups are good.

(26:12):
Those are two profound lies.
A third one that came out ofthis as I started looking at it
was this whole area of if youare black, then you are an
innocent victim and all thedifficulties that you face, the
challenges, the difficultiesthat you face because of that,
are all due to somebody else'sactions, their oppression in

(26:39):
your life, and it may not evenbe overt, it may be very subtle.
You know things that you can'thardly even call coercion, but
it really is.
That's kind of the criticaltheory idea.
There's this something, and whatI was seeing there, luke and
Dwight, was this eliminated anykind of sense of responsibility

(27:02):
or agency.
In other words, if you were ina really difficult situation,
you could say it's because of myskin color and somebody else
did it to me and there's nothingI can do about it.
Somebody else has to change.
In order for you know mycircumstances to change, those
evil people need to givereparations or whatever it is
they need to do.
They need to take the firststep.
I can't do anything, and Ithought that is such another

(27:26):
very satanic, destructive lie,right?
So, yes, oppression exists, yes, people get a bum rap and all
sorts of bad things can happen.
But this idea that you have noagency, and in fact this one
bothered me.
I'm sorry, I'll let you guystalk, but this one bothered me a
lot because I love the historyof African Americans in the
United States.
It's been a hard history.

(27:47):
They were enslaved for 200years so they got a bum rap, you
know for sure.
But the heroes for me of theblack American history were
people like George Washington,carver, booker T Washington.

Luke Allen (28:05):
Yeah.

Scott Allen (28:05):
Booker T Washington , thank you.
There was a group of blackpeople who, despite the fact
that they had really been dealta bad hand, their thought was we
can make choices that will leadto a better outcome for our own
lives and for our posterity.

(28:25):
And they started making simplechoices and they really believed
in human agency and theybelieved in God, you know, and
that we ourselves we don't haveto rely on.
They thought we don't have torely on white people.
We ourselves can make choicesthat will improve our outcomes
in the future.
You know, that was what madethem heroic is that, even though
they were really in badcircumstances, they believed

(28:47):
that they could make choicesthat would change things.
And I thought this new movementis eliminating all of that.
It's saying there's nothing youcan do, you are completely
passive and require people,other people to change before
things can get better for you.
Such a wrong way of thinking.

Luke Allen (29:05):
That's a really, really evil way of thinking,
especially since they werebringing a lot of this through
the education system, tellingyoung kids that lie.
What's even the point ofeducation?
What's the point of any type ofself-improvement?

Scott Allen (29:17):
Yeah, just to make you bitter.
It only embitters you againstthese so-called oppressors,
right?
Yeah, it's interesting.

Dwight Vogt (29:25):
I wrote a short blog on that for the DNA website
here last year because I wasthinking about that particular
consequence of that lie, whichis passivity or victimization.

Scott Allen (29:42):
Just this idea that all the bad it's something that
somebody else has done andthere's nothing I can do to
change it.

Dwight Vogt (29:48):
Exactly, it's the loss of dominion the loss of
agency.

Scott Allen (29:52):
The loss of being human.
In many ways right.

Dwight Vogt (29:54):
Well, because agency is so tied in.
I mean it's five verses in—no,it's not five verses, it's 27
verses into Genesis 1, the firstpage of the Bible, God says
have dominion.
Rule over the fish of the sea,the birds of the air and plants.
You know the creatures on theground.
And in Psalm 8, rule over allthe works of my hand.
So agency is fundamental tobeing human.

(30:15):
It's fundamental.
And then I thought about well,okay, this is undermining that.
It's undermining agency.
You no longer have agency.
You are now dependent on peoplearound you to change the
culture, change the structure,change the power base so that
you can breathe and you can live, you know.
But then I thought it'sinteresting, because that Satan

(30:36):
you wouldn't think of him beingon the attack against that first
commandment in Genesis 1, buthe does it with animism, he does
it with socialism.
I mean, if you think aboutcommunist Russia, it was like
you no longer had agency.
You were dependent on the stateto decide when to farm, how to
farm, what to farm, how much tofarm.
You know they were the decisionmakers, you weren't.

(30:56):
And then, with animism and yourfear of spirits, it's like you
don't decide, the spirit decides, and so you have to appease the
spirit, but you don't know how.
And you do your best and you'rejust at the whim.

Scott Allen (31:07):
You're just totally at the mercy of these much more
powerful forces.
That's the idea.
There's these powerful forcesout there and you can't do
anything.

Dwight Vogt (31:13):
You're at their utter mercy.
These huge lies throughout theworld are undermining human
agency.

Scott Allen (31:18):
Yes, and that's always demonic, isn't it?

Dwight Vogt (31:21):
It's always demonic , it's always demonic, and I'm
surprised that Satan wants to.
Well.
And then sometimes he goes theother extreme.
He says, well, I can'tundermine it, so I will distort
it so badly that people aredestroying things.
They're using agency forhorrible purposes.
So he's really against that.
I mean because that's sofundamental to who we are as
human beings.

Scott Allen (31:41):
Now we're talking here, guys, at the level of
worldview.
We're talking at that deeplevel of truth and lies, and
we're much deeper under the hood.
Right, we've gone way beyondBlack Lives Matter and we've
said what's under the hood.
Let's start with what are weobserving?
Right, I don't know what theybelieve, but let me just start
with what I'm observing.
They're doing Segregation.
What are their policies?

(32:03):
You know, let's fight forreparations, whatever it is.
You can see those.
That's not too hard to look at.
But then you got to ask thenext question why?
What's driving that?
What's their worldview?
And then you have to ask andthis is really key, you have to
ask how is it and how is itdifferent from the truth, from
what we understand in thescriptures, the biblical truth?

(32:24):
And I think, guys, if I couldjust observe I don't think the
church is—we've kind of lost theskill of doing this I think
evangelicals, you know, when wethink about our mission, it
always comes back to the gospel,preach, the gospel.
It's the gospel, gospel isgoing to change things.
Again, i—of course, right, I'mgoing to always agree with that

(32:45):
vehemently.
But not everything can bereduced to gospel, gospel,
gospel, because if you thinkthat way, you don't think in
terms of principles.
What are the principles comingout of Genesis 1, 2, and 3 that
shape what it means to be human?
If you're not used to thinkingat that principle level, then
it's easy for these lies to kindof sneak right through and you

(33:06):
never ask the question how is itdifferent from what the Bible
teaches?
Because when you think of whatthe Bible teaches, your first
thought is gospel.
You know that's it, gospel.

Dwight Vogt (33:14):
I remember a friend in Food for the Hungry who
worked in Bolivia as amissionary this is like 30 years
ago and he had gone with hiswife to a tribal area, the
Altiplano or something, and hadsuccess in planning a church,
and they were converted.
And then he realized that hehad a church, or it was a church

(33:35):
of Christian animus, yeah, andthey—.

Scott Allen (33:40):
In other words, they believed the gospel.

Dwight Vogt (33:41):
They believed in the death and resurrection of
Christ and his atonement for sin, but they still viewed the
world as animus, and so theywere fearful, they were lack
dominion, they were makingsacrifices, they were spending
on celebrations to appease thespirits, whatever.
And he thought I have to goback to Genesis 1 and teach them

(34:02):
.
God created the heavens and theearth.

Scott Allen (34:04):
You have to teach more truth than just the gospel.
You have to teach these basicprinciples of reality about God
and what it means to be human.
A lot of it that comes out ofGenesis 1 and 2.

Luke Allen (34:13):
Exactly, dwight yeah , yeah, and you're talking about
the gospel of salvation there,not, you know, gospel, that's a
hard word.
We kind of should define itbefore we toss it True true Luke
.

Scott Allen (34:21):
I'm referring to the gospel of salvation, because
that again there's Christiansthat argue, even to this day,
that that's the sum total of theChristian message.

Dwight Vogt (34:29):
Well, I have a thought on that.

Scott Allen (34:32):
Yeah, go ahead.

Dwight Vogt (34:33):
You got two minutes .
We do.
Yeah, I'm always wondering.
You know, in the church todaywe do exactly that the gospel,
the gospel, the gospel.
We're a gospel church, we'regospel-centric, and yet Jesus
spoke the gospel of the kingdomin the King James Version.
And then you realize well, it'sbecause Jesus spoke the good

(34:54):
news of the kingdom, which makessense.
If you think of worldview asgood news, that makes sense.
But we create a special box forthe good news of the death and
resurrection, the atoning workof Christ, which is a super big
box, super big box, but we takeit out of the death and
resurrection, the atoning workof Christ which is a super big
box For our spiritual salvation.
Super big box, Right, but wetake it out of the good news
area and we put it into thisgospel box and then we exclude
the other good news of Scripture.

Scott Allen (35:14):
Well said, Dwight.
Exactly, that's the problem iswe exclude all this other good
news.
We don't even hardly thinkabout it.
Do you know how?

Dwight Vogt (35:22):
that happened, how, when Tyndale translated the New
Testament from Greek into OldEnglish, or whoever did it, the
Old English it was the word forgood news was goad spell, which
was good news, and as the Bible,as Old English, you know, we
don't say goad spell anymore, wesay good news.
So as English evolved, likeevery language does, the

(35:43):
translators of the Bible tookgoad spell and created God
instead of goad, because itsounded like God and spell.
They kept and just created theword gospel.
So it became a separate word, anew word that was just about
basically the death andresurrection of Christ.
Anyway, it's all good news.

Luke Allen (36:03):
It's the best news.
It's great news.
It is the good news.
That's interesting.
So it's great news, it is thegood news.
That's interesting.
So in the original Greek you'renot going to find a
part-for-part version of theword gospel.

Dwight Vogt (36:12):
No, it's euangelion is the word across the New
Testament.
Wherever you see gospel or goodnews, it's euangelion.
It's one word which is animportant word, anyway,
absolutely.
Side note to you.

Scott Allen (36:22):
Well.
I think, when we are not usedto—if we reduce the Christian
message to just a message ofspiritual salvation, a
restoration of our verticalrelationship with God, which is
central, foundational.
But if we reduce it and we saythere's nothing else, then we
lose the ability to think interms of biblical truth in other
areas.
Biblical principles, biblicaltruth.
And so when we lose the abilityto think critically in that way

(36:45):
, when the lie comes in about,let's say, human agency,
something like that that we'retalking about, we're not even
used to thinking oh, how doesthe church or the Bible teach on
that?
We just don't think about it.
So it comes right in, you know,to the church or whatever it is.
You know the line thatseparates good and evil.
That's a principle, right?
If we're not used to thinkingat that level of deeper

(37:06):
principles, those lies can comein.
Yeah, you know, maybe we candivide good and evil between
skin color groups or whatever itis.
You know, and it's crazy tothink that Christians can think
that way, but they can't youknow, just like in the same way
that those animists on theAltiplano Dwight that you were
talking about could be saved.
Animists on the Altiplano Dwightthat you were talking about
could be saved, go to church,but still be in their minds.

(37:27):
Animists, we're, no different.

Dwight Vogt (37:29):
Again, part of that is because our worldview
becomes our glasses.
We don't see it.
Yeah, it really is.
It's the lenses we look atlight through.

Luke Allen (37:38):
Go ahead, luke, you were going to say something.
Well, this is getting to whereI thought we were going to go
today, more so, uh, with thediscussion of as the people in
thailand were christians, theyunderstood salvation, they
understood that, you know, theirsins were forgiven, but they
were still animus in the waythat they saw the world, in the
way that they went about theirwork and their family and all
the other areas of life thatthey couldn't exactly clearly

(37:59):
connect to christ's work ofsalvation.
and we're the exact same wayhere in the united states exact
same way we are christianmaterialists, we're christian
post-modernists, we're christiandarwinists.
What does that look like?
It looks like when.

Scott Allen (38:13):
But we believe the gospel and we want to, we want
to witness to our friends, youknow.

Luke Allen (38:17):
But for example, when you bring up health and
fitness, what's a christian viewof health and fitness?
You'll get a lot of people arelike, oh can't even be.

Scott Allen (38:25):
Yeah, you don't even know what you're talking
about.
What does the Bible have to sayabout health and fitness?
Nothing.
It's all about the gospel ofsalvation.

Luke Allen (38:32):
And if they do give you an answer, it's going to be
an answer from another worldview.
It's going to be you know,maybe this.

Dwight Vogt (38:40):
Well, what is the answer, Luke?

Scott Allen (38:41):
Well, what are some principles that connect to that
question?

Luke Allen (38:45):
I love this question .
That's something I've thought alot about.
Yeah, I mean, well, if I go outand I ask people on the street
around me, I'm going to getanswers like well, it's for my
self-betterment, it's for mymental health.
It's for my, you know, feelcomfortable in my own skin.
Very me, me, me, me me.
It's this hyper individualismobviously behind that, A lot of

(39:08):
those kind of we all know thosekind of answers, right, but
what's the Christian answer?
Well, you got to go we weretalking to Bob Moffitt a few
weeks ago.
He's big on teaching.
Okay, if we're going to learnhow to grow as humans into the
fullest sense of what a human itshould be, the ideal human,
let's look at Jesus.

Scott Allen (39:24):
He was the ideal human.

Luke Allen (39:25):
How did Jesus grow it?
It should be the ideal human.
Let's look at Jesus.
He was the ideal human.
How did Jesus grow?
It, tells us in Luke 2, 52,.
And Jesus grew in wisdom andstature in favor with God and
man.
It doesn't just say in favorwith God.

Scott Allen (39:33):
It says other categories, like there's only
one relationship, myrelationship to God, and nothing
else matters.
Exactly, he grew in wisdom.

Luke Allen (39:40):
You're in stature.
That's physical fitness,nutrition, all that he grew in
favor with God, spiritual favorwith man, social.
So you, physical fitness,nutrition, all that he grew in
favor with god, spiritual favorwith man, social.
So you have to take intoaccount all of those if you want
to become the full human aschrist modeled for us.
So with that is you know,respect the temple of the holy
spirit, respect your body, anddo so not for only your own good
, even though you should,because your body was given to

(40:02):
you by god.
It's an art piece that he made,that he asked you to steward
and take care of um, but also sothat you can help others better
.
And um, nutrition, fitness, allof that is going to help you be
more of a engaged, you know,active, vivacious human that'll
serve people better.

Scott Allen (40:17):
So yeah, just that simple thought that you know I'm
pumping iron here, not just toyou know, it's not for selfish
ends so I can look really greatand attract the babes, but so
that I can be strong and readyto protect my family, right?
Or something like that maybe.
Yeah, go ahead, I was justthinking.

Dwight Vogt (40:32):
You know, jesus grew in Luke 2, 52, in those
four areas.
But then you have to alsorealize that there's also a
purpose behind that.
It's not just that he wouldgrow in a nice way, but for why?
And you alluded to that alreadybecause he came here to seek
and to serve the lost.
So he came to serve and to love.

Luke Allen (40:53):
And yet it's sad when you look around the
American church, the amount ofyou know, I mean we've had
people in the DNA come to the USand their takeaway of visiting
the US is oh my gosh, you guysare so unhealthy here.
You know.
Gluttony in the church iscompletely overlooked.

Scott Allen (41:09):
It's not even called a sin.
No one names it.

Luke Allen (41:11):
People make fun of it and it's just because we
don't have this view of thewhole human and we look right
over it, because we're focusedon this one piece.
And yet it's yeah, it's calleda sin in the Bible.

Dwight Vogt (41:27):
And we should have a Go ahead, dwight.
It relates to education too.
Why do we go to school?
Do we go to school?
Because, well, we're going toget a good job and we're going
to have a good house, and we'regoing to have a couple of cars,
maybe buy a boat.
Nothing wrong with all thosethings.
The good things of the worldare to be enjoyed as well.
But that's not why we get aneducation.

(41:49):
We get an education because Godcreated us to serve and we're
here for that purpose.
So how are we going to servethe world and use our gifts if
we don't educate ourselves anddevelop?

Scott Allen (42:02):
So I think, to summarize what we're saying here
, guys, if I could, is we haveto understand Christianity, our
faith, not as a message ofspiritual salvation alone.
It certainly encompasses thatand that's foundational to it,
but it is a comprehensiveworldview that's full of all
kinds of principles that answerall the big questions about who

(42:24):
we are, who's God, what happensafter life, what's the purpose
of life.
We have to understand all ofthat.
We haven't done that.
We've gotten out of thepractice of doing that.
We haven't valued that or seenthat as important, much less
saying that.
That's not just important to me,but that's something that I
actually need to steward,shepherd, try to bring into the
culture around me, because it'swhat's going to change the

(42:47):
culture in positive ways,because there's all sorts of
lies, these destructive lies outthere as we were talking about
with the Black Lives Matterthing that are going to destroy
it.
So we have to actually go onmission with these things.
We have a lot of work to do,but again it starts with we've
got to begin to think biblical,you know, from kind of a
worldviewishly.
Get below the branding.

(43:09):
Again, the branding is oftenvery slick and it's very
appealing.
Get below that, look under thehood.
What are the practices?
And then, what's driving thosepractices?
What's driving those policies?
What are the deeper beliefsbehind them?
And how do they differ frombiblical truth, the biblical
principles, and then contend,you know, contend.
I think one other piece of thepuzzle in terms of thinking

(43:31):
critically is, you know, justthe definition of words as well,
right?
So in this case of Black LivesMatter, they used the word
justice all the time socialjustice, justice, justice.
So then you had to ask how arethey defining that word and how
is that definition differentthan what we get from the
Scripture?
Because the Scripture uses theword justice and it defines it

(43:53):
in a particular way.
So that's just another piece ofunderstanding kind of sifting
through truth and lies isgetting below the level of just
the word itself, to how is itbeing defined, if I could put it
that way?

Dwight Vogt (44:06):
Yeah, I think you made a good point of that in
this last book.
You just wrote yeah, becausewhat you're talking about, scott
, is words at their essencebecome our worldview, and our
worldview is our words.

Luke Allen (44:17):
Correct, exactly.

Dwight Vogt (44:20):
And if we don't and that can that's probably the
worst form of deception, whenyou can shift a person's
worldview by shifting theirdefinitions of words.
And my question to you, scott,is how do you?
What's your advice to theaverage person that says, okay,
there's lies on this world.
We don't know them because wewear our lenses, you know?
For me it was like something'snot right here and so we just go

(44:43):
look deeper.
What's your advice?

Scott Allen (44:45):
How do we become?

Dwight Vogt (44:46):
aware of these, and how do we then?

Scott Allen (44:48):
Well, like I say, dwight, I think that it's hard
to get down to the deepest level.
You can't see it.
We use that illustration of thetree and the worldview.
Roots are under the ground.
You can't see them, but you cansee the practices.
And so start with that.
What do I see?
What's being done, what are thebehaviors, what are the

(45:10):
practices, what are the policies?
That you can see, but then askquestions about it why?
Why?
Homelessness is a huge issuehere right now in Bend, and I
can see the practices and thepolicies that the government is
using related to that.
I can see it.
But then you have to ask thequestion why?

(45:30):
Why those practices, why thosepolicies?
And then this is where we haveto just get better.
As Christians, we have to thinkworldviewishly.
How is it different?
How are those ideas, thoseprinciple ideas, different from
what we would learn in thescriptures, and how would that
lead to a different set ofpolicies and practices?
What would that look like ifthat was lived out?
Yeah, go ahead.

Dwight Vogt (45:52):
And that leads you naturally to what does it mean
to be human for the homelessperson, and how can we help them
become human?

Scott Allen (46:01):
So on that particular issue, it all kind of
revolves around that you know,I would say Well, dignity agency
Agency.
That you know, I would say Well, dignity agency Agency, yeah,
you know, is a huge one.

Dwight Vogt (46:11):
Is this practice, then, addressing and helping and
supporting human agency?
Yeah, that's what we need toget to Right.

Scott Allen (46:20):
I mean, we could talk in depth about this issue
in the same way we just didabout Black Lives Matter.
That might be good.
I think the purpose of ourpodcast today isn't so much to
go into depth on all of theseissues, but to kind of lay out a
kind of a framework for howpeople can begin to think and,
Luke, I know you wanted to.
we've got a little bit of timeleft, right now AI is just a

(46:40):
huge ballooning thing, and Ithink we're watching kind of the
same thing that we saw withBlack Lives Matter kind of
repeating itself with AI thishuge new thing in the culture.
Now it's coming into the churchand you've got Christians kind
of like, wow, I'm so excited,this is so wonderful.
And others are like, oh my gosh, this is end times, it's going
to doom us.
You've got all these kind ofreactions to it.
So the question then becomeshow do we begin to think about

(47:03):
it?
And I think that's the.
You know, that's a, you know.
I know you want to have thatdiscussion.
I want to do that too.
Honestly, I don't know theanswers, but I feel like I've
got a framework for beginning tothink about it.
And I wonder if we could starttalking about that just a little
bit in our last bit of timehere.

Luke Allen (47:20):
Yeah, I was kind of wanting to keep digging into
practical ways of how we can dothis.
Unpack you know things aroundus and try to infer or figure
out the world view that'sbacking it yeah, I think if we
could do this briefly, unpacking, just kind of like how do you
unpack a new concept like airight um, and then we definitely
will dedicate a full episode tothis in the future and trying

(47:40):
to do more of a worldviewanalysis on it but, when you
guys look at ai, you know it's akind of perfect example,
actually, because all the time,as christians, we're going about
culture, especially nowadayswhen there's just we live in
such a time of, you know,political polarization and just
like things that demand ourattention, in a way, and you
have to feel like you have anopinion on um confronting us
left and right.

(48:00):
Um, this is one of those.
It's not as polarizing as blacklives matter, but it's it's
still.
How do we think about this?
Should we get on board?
Should we approve of this?
Should be concerned of this?

Dwight Vogt (48:10):
um you know how would you?

Luke Allen (48:12):
guys go about that kind of just give us like a
simple six to ten steps I thinkit works, the framework, the
framework works.

Scott Allen (48:17):
What's the branding , what's under the hood, what's
the policy practice, and thenyou can get down to that level
of paradigm.
So I think we can apply all ofthat framework to something like
artificial intelligence, anddefinitions too.
I mean I almost start with thatone when I think of artificial
intelligence, just becauseyou've got two words there
artificial intelligence.
What do they mean byintelligence?

(48:38):
That would be a question.
And how is that different thanwisdom, let's say?
I mean, those are questions.
And what do they mean byartificial?
I understand artificial.
When I think of artificial, thefirst thing that comes to my
mind funny enough, is vanilla,because there's real vanilla
right that you get from thevanilla bean.
It's genuine and it's expensive.
And then there's real vanillaright that you get from the

(48:58):
vanilla bean.
It's genuine and it's expensive.
And then there's the stuff thatI buy in the grocery store.
That's artificial.
It's some kind of a chemical,like you know, simulation of it
that tastes kind of like it, butit's artificial right.

Dwight Vogt (49:11):
Oh, the worst is maple syrup, Scott yeah.

Luke Allen (49:13):
It's even worse.
Well said, the real thing is somuch better, right.
It's even worse.
Well said, artificial the realthing is so much better, right.
It's just expensive.
It's kind of true though thatworks here.
It's kind of a cheap knockoffthat looks like intelligence.
It is intelligent in a way, butit's not actually intelligent
in the fact that it's notcreating anything new.

Scott Allen (49:34):
Well, it begs the question what's the genuine here
in this case, luke?
Where does genuine intelligence.

Luke Allen (49:38):
What is the?

Scott Allen (49:39):
genuine yeah, genuine intelligence.
If this is artificial, what'sthe genuine intelligence?

Luke Allen (49:43):
well, there's only one genuine intelligence I can
create something out of nothingand create true ideas out of
nothing and since after him,everyone's just been recreating
what he's already created.
So that's god.

Scott Allen (49:54):
So so just beginning to ask questions about
the words kind of gets you into, I think, a critical thinking
about what is intelligence?

Dwight Vogt (50:01):
I've never actually asked that yeah, I sort of have
.

Scott Allen (50:05):
But then we can go down to that level of what do we
see?
How is it being put intopractice?
You know what?
What do we see?
Because now we're all kind ofbeginning to see that you know,
and.
And then there's policies too.
There's a lot of policies thatare kind of coming around this
as well.
So we can think of that.
And again, I know we don't havetime to do a deep dive in this.
I'd like to and let me just behonest, I'll put my cards on the

(50:27):
table when we get down to thatlevel of worldview on this one
it's fuzzy for me, but I'mreally I see enough down there
that I'm very concerned aboutLike wow, we've got some really
demonic kind of worldview ideas.
I bet when I get down to thatlevel I'm going to see some
things that are really wrong andreally destructive.
But I haven't done that deepdive yet.

Dwight Vogt (50:51):
I mean maybe a little bit, but not yeah, maybe
you should, scott, and then comeback, because even now you've
raised the question for me.
I've always thought of AI,really, as I mean there's views
of transhumanism and it'll takeover the world and it'll run our
lives, but then I see itpractically as just a tool, ai
as a tool.
But then you're saying, no, thevery word artificial and

(51:13):
intelligence tells us somethingelse and I'm thinking, yeah, you
need to write an 11th word thedefinition of intelligence,
scott, from a biblical worldview.

Scott Allen (51:23):
I mean, here's just what I'm seeing on the surface
is well so well.
First of all, you have tounderstand, I guess, a little
bit about how this is working,and I don't, but it seems to me
that it's just.
It works based on this veryrapid computation and kind of
summarization of all that's outthere in the ether, you know, on
the internet.

(51:43):
Um and humans created what'sthat that humans created?
Yeah, that humans created andthat you can query it?
Um, and a lot of the, a lot ofthe, a lot depends on that, like
the people that I know that arequerying it to chat, gpt or
whatever it is.
Um, if you, if you, well, firstof all, it's, it's super

(52:05):
powerful when it comes to like a, like a set of information,
usually mathematically, like,like, I think, of chess, right,
there's, there's, mathematically, a set number of moves you can
make in that chess game, right,and so it's a defined set, and
then it could just, it can seeall of that you know, and
compute the outcome of every oneof these moves, like super fast

(52:25):
, way faster than we can right.
So, in that sense, it's smarter, it's I mean, I don't even like
using it's not smarter, but itit's a lot faster when it's a
defined set that's mathematical,let's say um, yeah, beats us
every time right.
And then so there's that'smathematical.
Let's say, yeah, beats us everytime, right.
And then so there's that pieceof it, it's a tool.
Yeah, it's a tool.
And then there's this.
You know, if I query it like, Ifind it very fascinating to

(52:47):
query it about what do you meanby discipling?
What do we mean by disciplingnations?
Or you know something?
That is a question that we askall the time, because it'll
actually go out and find stuffthat we've written.
That's out there on the internetand then come back with this
like powerful little summary ofthat.
Or you could even compare it,like I've noticed people
comparing how does disciplingnations, what does it mean to

(53:09):
disciple nations, and how isthat similar or different from
what Nancy Peercy wrote about inher book Total Truth?
Like, those answers that youget back are really fascinating,
often really helpful, butyou're giving it like a defined
kind of set of information tolook at.
But when you get down to thedeep questions of worldview,
this is where I get more nervous, like if you just queried it

(53:29):
and you asked it.
Like one of the deep worldviewquestions is what does it mean
to be human?
Or who is God?
What is God?
I don't know.
What answers are you going toget?
You know?

Luke Allen (53:40):
And are those biased towards what they think you're
going to like to hear?

Scott Allen (53:42):
Well, maybe, luke, and if that's the case, then
couldn't you query it to say,without biasing it, in favor of
what you think I want to hear,what is God?
See, this is where I thinkwe're going to run into problems
with it, because it's going tocome up with something that
people have thought about that.

(54:03):
But the only true source ofwisdom and knowledge about this
thing comes from the HolyScriptures.
Right, I mean, that is theultimate font of wisdom, because
it comes from God himself.
It's his revealed word.
But AI is going to differentiate, it's going to deviate from
that, you know, at differentpoints, right?

Luke Allen (54:20):
so at that deep worldview level almost, exactly
because you're running into oneof its blind spots, which is ai
cannot do morality, ai does notknow love.
Ai cannot do goodness those,but those are deep worldview
things there, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Well, like people are freakingout that it's speaking, it's
going to become its own mind ofits own you know, person, kind

(54:42):
of a human, human being, likekind of person like you can talk
to it like a human, becauseit's forming thoughts so quick
that it seems like you'retalking to a sentient human
being.

Scott Allen (54:50):
Yeah, just pause there for a second, because what
there's an idea behind thatthat's really profound.
And the idea behind that isthat there is no—I mean the
worldview idea is there is noGod.
We are evolved creatures andconsequently we ourselves, human
beings, are just computationalbeings and creatures, we're just
material, computational beings.
If that worldview belief istrue which it's not, but if it

(55:15):
is true, then of course youcould create potentially a
computer, a system that is inevery way just like us, because
that's not.
But if it is true, then ofcourse you could create
potentially a computer, a systemthat is in every way just like
us, because that's all we areright.
And then the answer to that is,or the response from the
Christian to that, is that's alie.
We are not just materiallyevolved creatures, right, we are
creations of a God.
You know we're made in Hisimage.
You know we can't be reduced tojust matter in motion,

(55:39):
computational beings.
If we could, then you couldpotentially create an ai that
was sentient.

Luke Allen (55:44):
If you will go ahead , luke yeah, that's another way
to dig into the worldview behindsomething is look at the
creators, look at the founderswhat's their worldview?

Scott Allen (55:51):
where are they exactly?

Luke Allen (55:52):
yeah and a lot of these guys are really excited
about this idea of thepost-human, which is this
sentient being that's going totranscend humans and become our
kind of like next evolved state.
You can't do that, so good lucktrying, but you're so right,
luke who are those people thatare really the key players, the
key thinkers in this.

Scott Allen (56:11):
Just like we were talking about Black Lives Matter
, you could identify the threeladies that founded that
organization.
Who trained them?
What shaped them?
How did they think that'sreally key at getting at truth,
and so we would have to do thesame thing here with artificial
intelligence, people like ElonMusk and all of these people in
Silicon Valley and other places.
Right, what's their worldview?

(56:32):
What's shaping them?
I don't know.
That's where I don't know, butthose are the questions I would
ask exactly.

Dwight Vogt (56:44):
I think that's the next podcast we should probably
invite an ai expert to talk tous as well, that'd be nice.

Scott Allen (56:47):
Yeah, I really, yeah, I, I, I would love to to
go deeper on this.
I um go find a move I have anidea of someone.
Yeah, yeah, okay, we'll have toget him on I know there's a,
there's a book, um, and achristian who's done.
I'm trying to think of his name.
The book is called dark aeon andit came out about a year ago.
Um, a christian who's thoughtvery deeply, and I thought I
would use him as a kind of asherpa, kind of a guide, you

(57:10):
know, uh, not that he is goingto have everything perfectly
sorted himself, but sometimesit's helpful to get these guides
.
You know who've done, who,they've gone ahead of you,
they've done some thinking,written books, and I thought
that that's a book I need toread, you know for sure, and we
all do, because we thisartificial intelligence is
massive.
It's going to have huge changesfor us all.

Dwight Vogt (57:29):
Give me the name and I'll buy the book it's
called dark aeon by joe allen,and joe allen?

Scott Allen (57:34):
yeah, joe, exactly.
He often writes at Federalistand other places.

Luke Allen (57:38):
Aeon A-E-O-N.
What's the subtitle of thatbook, Luke?
Transhumanism and the WarAgainst Humanity Wow.

Scott Allen (57:45):
Yeah, I thought that I've heard him talk.
He's really a deep thinker,he's done a lot of research and
I thought he'd be a good Sherpakind of guide to kind of get
into this version but, anyway,it's on my reading list.

Dwight Vogt (57:59):
God.

Scott Allen (58:02):
I think our time's up.
I think you're right.
Yes, Dwight, do you have otherthings you got to get to today?
Well, this has been a fantasticdiscussion.
Guys are really appreciatedbeing able to kind of talk these
things through with you and,again for our listeners, thank
you for tuning in.
I hope it's been helpful foryou as well.
We have to get better at this.
We are not experts ourselves,but we're just trying to learn
and grow ourselves in this.
So, anyways, thanks for tuningin and we look forward to having

(58:24):
you back on another episode ofIdeas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations.

Luke Allen (58:32):
Hey guys, thank you so much for listening to this
episode.
I hope that this discussion washelpful for you.
Like we were saying right thereat the end, we will continue
this discussion on AI on nextweek's podcast here on Ideas
have Consequences, so stay tuned.
If you guys could give me 30seconds of your time before we
wrap up today, I recentlynoticed that a majority of you
guys listening have notsubscribed or followed this

(58:53):
podcast on Apple Podcasts,spotify or wherever you're
listening to this podcast rightnow.
So if you wouldn't mind justheading over to the podcast app
that you're listening on and tapthat follow or subscribe button
.
That really helps us as wecontinue to try to grow this
show, bring on more interestingguests and put more of our time
and attention into bringing younew topics each week.
Like I said during thecommercial, if you would like to
learn more about a worldview,and specifically a biblical

(59:15):
worldview, and, as such, becomemore aware of the competing
worldviews around you andtherefore become more aware of
the lies or sins that you mightbe complacent in because of
those worldviews, then I wouldhighly recommend going and
checking out our short video onour YouTube that is called why
Does your Worldview Matter.
It's about four and a halfminutes long and it really does
do a great job of explainingthis concept to you in simple

(59:37):
terms, and if you've alreadyseen it, then I would encourage
you to share it with a friend.
Again.
That video is linked in theshow notes or you can just go
search it on YouTube.
That's it, guys.
Thanks again for your timetoday.
We always really appreciate youguys for spending your time
with us here on Ideas haveConsequences.
Thank you.