What Were You Saved to Do? | Easter Special - Ideas Have Consequences

Episode Transcript
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Dwight Vogt (00:02):
You know, in evangelicals we're very clear on
we're not saved by doing good.

Scott Allen (00:06):
No, that's right.
We know that.

now we made such a big deal.
We're not saved by doing good,we're not saved by works, but we
are saved, as you said, to dosomething and we're saved to do
good, and that, I think, isreally where there's a lot of
emptiness in our kind ofthinking.
Oh, because we're afraid as soonas we say we're saved to do
good.
Well, now we're thinking we'resafe, we're good people or we're

(00:28):
great people, and somehow we'reso good that it saves us.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We're not saved by doing good.
We're saved by the grace ofJesus Christ.

Luke Allen (00:49):
And because of that he can give us his Holy Spirit
to do good.
Hi friends, welcome to.
Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance.
Here on this show we examinehow our mission as Christians is
to not only spread the gospelaround the world, to all the
nations, but our mission alsoincludes to be the hands and
feet of God, to transform thenations to increasingly reflect
the truth, goodness and beautyof God's kingdom.

(01:10):
Tragically, the church haslargely neglected this second
part of her mission and todaymost Christians have little
influence on their surroundingcultures.
Join us on this podcast as werediscover what it means for
each of us to disciple thenations and to create
Christ-honoring cultures thatreflect the character of the
living God.

Welcome again to another episode of Ideas have
Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen, I'm thepresident of the DNA and today
we are doing our Easter specialpodcast.
I'm really excited to be joinedtoday by my beloved friends.
One of them is a friend and ason and co-worker, Dwight Vogt,

(01:51):
Luke Allen.
Hi you guys.

I'm the co-worker.

Hey, happy Easter.
Happy Easter.
We're recording before Easter,so a little bit early, but it's
exciting to just even say thosewords and to reflect on all that
this incredible holiday, thistime of celebration, means to us
and to the church and to thewhole world.
So we're going to share somethoughts today on what Easter

(02:18):
means.
We like to kind of do thathistorically.
We've done this in the past.
We're going to do it againtoday in the context of the
things that God has put on ourheart as far as the mission of
the DNA, discipling nations andthe impact that we need to be
having as a church on ournations.
And I'm going to turn it overat this point to Dwight.

(02:39):
Dwight's going to take the leadhere, beginning to share his
reflections on Easter and itsrelationship to the mission of
the DNA, and then Luke willfollow and I'll be doing kind of
color commentary as we go alongtoday.
So, dwight, over to you.

Hey, thanks Scott.
Yeah, Easter's a great time.
I've got good memories from thepast of just enjoying eastern
services and family and, uh, Iwas thinking about it.
I'm you know, I'm writing youguys.
I'm trying to put together somethoughts for a book here, and
this really ties into that,because whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

(03:17):
whoa well we're not going totalk about that till next May.
Okay.

Well, putting some thoughts together for a book I
think needs a little bit moreunpacking.

Luke Allen (03:27):
Dwight, if I could, because you're not just putting
thoughts together.

The book is written right, am I correct on that?

Well, no, yes, it's in print, it is, but it isn't.
You haven't seen it yet becauseit's not done and my wife hasn
hasn't read it.

Well, of course, right, but it's in a draft form,
but it's written.
We're way down the road.
This is a very important book.

I'm just bragging on you a little bit, Dwight,
Okay well, I'm saying that thatthinking has led into, has
helped me think about Easter.
That's my point here.

Okay, and the book is about just while you got that
About Easter it Easter.

It's about Easter, then ultimately, that's what I'm
going to say right now.
That's my teaser.
Okay, gotcha, and I love Easterand you know, we know, easter
Christ was raised from the dead.
We are raised with him.
These are the themes that wecelebrate on Easter morning.
We have baptism, which is asymbol of that.
We're buried in the water andwe're brought out of the water,

(04:25):
which is into newness of life,and we're buried in our sin.
We're dead into our sin andsaved from that.
That's a great picture.
We talk about being saved andwe're saved from judgment.
We're saved from eternaljudgment.
We're saved from death, eternaldeath.
We know we're saved by grace,we don't have to do anything.

(04:47):
We celebrate that and sing lotsof songs about it and it's
wonderful.
And we are saved to something,and usually we say what we most
celebrate is we're saved toeternal life, which we interpret
as heaven.
I interpret as heaven.
We're saved to life with Christforever, the new heaven and the
new earth and a place of no sinand no suffering and no pain,

(05:10):
no disease, no death.

No, dandruff.

And no dandruff.

My old pastor used to always say that no disease,
no death, no dandruff.

Well, yeah, I don't struggle with dandruff, but the
Old Testament actually hasEzekiel of all things not
necessarily my favorite book,but Ezekiel's an interesting
book and he talked about beingraised from the dead and I want
to just read what he wroteEzekiel 37, and then tie that
into what Jesus said and whatIsaiah said and just take a

(05:43):
couple of minutes to reflect onthis.
First was Ezekiel was writingwhen the children of Israel were
in Babylon.
They were suffering in Babylonbecause they had failed to carry
out God's law in Israel andfollow him, and the context of
that is, you know, in the DNA wealways go back to Genesis 1 and

(06:03):
2.
What was God's design, what washis plan for the world?
And he laid it out in Genesis 1and 2, and it was a beautiful
plan.
There was a verticalrelationship with God that was
perfect and beautiful andunderstood and it was just right
.
There was a horizontalrelationship between Adam and
Eve and with all mankind.
There was a call it, a verticaldown, I don't know a

(06:27):
relationship with this earth,the ground we walk on, the
ground we stand on andeverything about it, all the
arts and all the systems andeconomies.
So these perfect relationshipswere put in place.
And then we know the story,which is the reason why we have
Easter today is because man fellinto sin, man was deceived and

(06:48):
all hell broke loose.
And then God raises up Israeland says I am going to use you,
you as a people, and I am goingto show you.
You are going to be a light tothe nations, you are going to
show the world what Genesis 1and 2 look like, what Adam and
Eve were commissioned to liveand do, and you are now going to

(07:09):
be that picture to the entireworld and I'm going to give you
my law.
So you know who I am.
You're going to know how torelate to one another through my
law and you're going to knowhow to relate to this earth
through my law.
It's going to be beautiful andyou're going to trust me and
know me, in fact, how to relateto this earth through my law.
It's going to be beautiful andyou're going to trust me and
know me.
In fact, I'm going to put myname and my temple with you.
I'm going to be with you.

(07:29):
He says so.
Here we go and we know the storyand they ended up failing
miserably and they ended up inBabylon, of all things, you know
, in exile.
And here Ezekiel's writing andhe says this Ezekiel 37.
He says, first of all, there'sthis picture that he gets of
these dry bones and they're alldead laying there.
And he says Son of man, canthese bones live?

(07:51):
And this is what the SovereignLord says.
He says my people, I am goingto open your graves and bring
you up from them.
I will bring you back to theland of Israel.
Then you, my people, will knowthat I am the Lord.
When I open your graves andbring you up from them, I will
put my spirit in you and youwill live and I will settle you

(08:13):
in your land.
And then, in Ezekiel 36, justbehind that, he talks about the
same giving of the spirit.
I will put my spirit in you andmove you to follow my decrees
and be careful to keep my laws.
Then you will live in the landthat I gave your ancestors, you
will be my people and I will beyour God.
I want to go one step further.

(08:35):
Isaiah was at the same timeprophesying when they were in
exile.
He says For I will pour wateron the thirsty land and streams
on the dry ground.
I will pour out my Spirit onyour offspring and my blessing
on your descendants.
They will spring up.
So here's a picture that'slooking towards.
You can interpret it two ways.

(08:57):
One is he's looking towards aphysical restoration of the land
of Israel at the final comingof Christ.
But it's also very clear thatit's a looking forward to the
new covenant which Christestablished when he came and
died on the cross and ascendedon our behalf, the new covenant
that he said something's goingto change in my relationship to
the world and there's going tobe a new way of living with me.

(09:19):
So it's looking forward to thatnew covenant.
When he sends his spirit and hesays what I like about it.
He says I'm going to move youto follow my decrees.
So far you've just beenstruggling on your own.
I'm going to actually put myspirit in you.
I'm going to move you to obeyme and it's going to be great
and it's going to be a wonderfulrelationship and your kids are

(09:39):
going to be like I will pour outmy spirit on your offspring and
they will spring up like grassin a meadow.
Here's a picture of land that'sflourishing with grass and with
trees and the fruitfulness ofthose trees.
And then we jump forward to thenew covenant Track with me,
guys.
Jesus is standing the weekbefore his death and

(10:01):
resurrection.
He's standing in the temple onthe last day of the great feast
and he says this If anyone isthirsty, let him come to me and
drink.
Whoever believes in me, as thescripture has said, streams of
living water will flow fromwithin him.
By this he meant the spiritwhom those who believed in him
were later to receive.
Up to that time, the spirit hadnot been given, since Jesus had

(10:23):
not yet been glorified.
His glorification was his deathand his resurrection and,
ultimately, his ascension to thethrone.
And when all of that happened,then we see what happens.
His Spirit is poured out onmankind and we usually say, oh,
the Spirit is for.
You know, it's a seal foreternal life.
It's a seal for new life.
It's a seal for eternal life.
It's a seal for new life.

(10:43):
It's the promise of the giftsof the Spirit, but it's also the
presence of God in humanity sothat we can live the lives that
God called us to live in Genesis1 and 2.
And I just love the idea thatwe're resurrected.

(11:04):
The resurrection of Christ is apicture of us being given the
Spirit of God and we areresurrected from death into a
new life, not just saved toeternal life, but we're saved to
live the life that Godestablished for Adam and Eve
back in Genesis.
And he calls us back to the land, and our land is where we live.

(11:24):
Our land is my vocation, it's myplace here in Phoenix, it's the
life that God has given me.
So he's calling me to live inmy land and he's saying I will
bless you with my spirit and soyou will now have the ability to
live in a brand new way that noone in the history of the world
has ever lived before, andthat's the age we live in.

(11:44):
It's called the church age,it's called the new covenant and
I think so many times we forgetthat the resurrection of Christ
was not just us getting eternallife, it's us getting the
spirit that gives us eternallife, but gives us the life, his
life, so that we are empoweredto live as he designed us to

(12:05):
live and create us to live,which is that genesis one and
two picture.
And, by the way, eden meansdelight.
He actually created us to, to,to create lives of delight for
our families, for our workplace,for our communities.
Anyway, it's a great pictureand that's this's where my
mind's been going at lately, youguys.

(12:25):
It's rattling around all overthe place, but those things seem
to be coming together for me.

Dwight, I wonder if you could talk a little bit
more about how the picture thatyou're painting here, the
biblical picture, is differentfrom maybe your past experience
or your experience that a lot ofChristians have when they think
about eternal life or theresurrected life.

I think of church last Sunday and we have this
wonderful new song we sing.
You know I don't know the words, but it's a nice new song, it's
really catchy.
Something about the graveopened up and I came running
free out of the grave and it'slike we're no longer.
We're no longer judged by sin,we're no longer under sin, we're
no longer, you know, I nolonger have to worry about being

(13:13):
judged and dying, havingeternal death, and so we're.
We're all excited about freedom, but we really don't talk about
what we're saved to.
What do we save to and what'sare we are we do we just have
the law like Israel had?
Are we in the same situation asIsrael?
That God, I'm going to give youthe law now and you're going to

(13:33):
obey it.
Trust me, you have to obey it.
No, he's going to give us thelaw in our hearts and he's going
to give us the spirit to liveout that law.
And that is the game changer ofthe resurrection, because Jesus
was glorified, and when he wasglorified, then he could send
his spirit.
And that spirit is not just,you know, to speak in.

(13:54):
I mean, there's the gift oftongues, there's the gift of the
spirit, but this God makes itclear that the spirit is the
spirit of wisdom, the spirit ofknowledge, the spirit of power,
the spirit of counsel, spirit ofthe fear of the Lord.
In fact, jesus said he woulddelight in the fear of the Lord.
So the spirit is an amazingforce in our lives for living
now that we don't recognizealways.

Yeah, and Dwight, just to add.
You know this came out of thepassage in Ezekiel.
I was listening to you speakabout it and it's really struck
me that the Spirit here, theSpirit of God, is a Spirit that
empowers us to do what is rightor to do what is good, to obey
the law, you know.
And you know, I think we like totalk about Jesus and his death

(14:39):
and resurrection in terms ofsaving us from the penalty of
the law, that substitutionaryatonement, and that's very true.
But what we talk about, I think, less, is that not only are we
saved from judgment and becauseof that we can have relationship
with God, we can have eternallife, but we're saved to be good
you know, and to do good, whichknow, which we couldn't do

(15:04):
before.
The biggest problem in the worldis that people act evil, you
know, I think about that famousbyline from Google.
You know, do no evil, orwhatever it was their tagline.
You know their motto.
And then at some point theychanged it because they realized
we just can't be good.
We just always were doing evil.

So we're such hypocrites here you know, so
they change it.
And you know, and evangelicalsas we are, protestants we're, so
we're very clear and we'resaved by.

No, that's right, we know that down.
We got that down, we made sucha big deal.

We're not saved by works.

But we are saved, as you said, to do something and
we're saved to do good, andthat, I think, is really where
there's a lot of emptiness inour kind of thinking.

Oh, because we're afraid.
As soon as we say we're savedto do good, well, now we're
thinking we're good people orwe're great people, and somehow
we're so good that it saves us.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We're not saved by doing good,we're saved by the grace of
Jesus Christ and because of that, he can give us his Holy Spirit

(16:12):
to do good.

And to put it in really the broadest context,
dwight, you talked about Genesis1 and 2.
In Genesis 1 and 2, there wasno sin, there was no evil, no
death, decay or dandruff as wesaid.
You know I mean theserelationships that God
established, our relationship tohim, to one another, to
creation were functioning justas God intended.
It was a beautiful place.
Then we fell and because of thefall, the rebellion, we became

(16:40):
slaves to sin and it wasn't evenpossible for us to do good,
became slaves to sin and itwasn't even possible for us to
do good.
God then established a plan andhe began to unfold a plan of
redemption by giving the lawchoosing a people, choosing a
man, Abraham, and a family, hisfamily and

building a nation.

Basically this is what good, looks like Giving the
law, but they couldn't obey it.
They didn't have the ability toobey it because of their dark,
fallen human hearts and it keptleading them back into slavery.
We needed a radical heartchange.
We needed to be born again.
You know, and that's whathappened through the culmination
of that story, which comes withChrist and the cross, new heart

(17:22):
, new spirit and then Pentecost,so that now we can do good.
We're never going to still beperfect, there's never going to
be Eden, but that's how thestory ends, you know, with the
second coming.
That's the return to Eden andthat's where we're going to see
a world again without sin, whereyou know God's will, his law is

(17:42):
perfectly obeyed.
But back to our present time.
We're to live in light of thatreality now and bring that in
the power of the Spirit, intothe world that we live now.
Right, that's the part that Ithink gets a little bit confused
.

God created Eden and then man messed it up.
God didn't say well, there'snever going to be any more Eden.
That's not my idea anymore.
No more plan for Eden.
That's impossible.
So forget it.
And by the way, just to cut youoff, I think a lot of
Christians think that way.

They think that, yeah, everything here that's
present, the creation, it's allgoing to be destroyed, and so
it's kind of like, just hang on,just wait until the second
coming, or until you die, andthen it's going to be fine.

It's this theology of disengagement, and even that
verse.
There's one verse in 2 Peterthat alludes to that and it can
be interpreted two ways.
One is the world comes underfire as a judgment of fire and
it's burned by judgment by fire.
But there's other places itsays a third of the earth is
burned.
So there is a judgment by fire,but it doesn't destroy

(18:50):
everything necessarily.

Yeah, I want to come back to that.
We can come back.
Go ahead, finish your thoughtthere.

Well, and just this idea that God didn't change his
mind.
He still wants good on thisearth and he wants good in our
lives.
He wants good on this earth andhe wants good in our lives.
He wants good in our marriages,he wants good in our workplace.

He wants us to be trees planted by streams of
living water that bear fruit inother words, he doesn't want
wars, he doesn't want, you know,the trafficking of of women and
you know he doesn't want thisworld, his desire, it's broken I
mean even jesus's prayer thykingdom come, thy will be done
on earth as it is his will, forearth today is good and it's

(19:32):
goodness, and he asks us to be apart of his plan to bring
goodness to this earth.

Are we great people ?
No, are we saved by goodness?
No, but that's still his planand that's why we're here.

We're brought back to life in order to live in the
reality of that now.

Yeah, and you know, will we succeed?
Make the world perfect?
Nope, but then Jesus didn'teither.
He was here for three years,did all kinds of good works, but
did he make the world perfect?
No, he accomplished his taskwhich was given to him.

What you remind me of, dwight.
Anyway, I think it's a yeah, goahead, finish your thoughts.
Sorry, I keep cutting you off.

It's just a fantastic message.
It's a fantastic message.

It brings to mind a verse, one of my favorite
verses, in the book of Hebrews.
It talks about the great hallof faith and these powerful
people down through the ages whohave lived, you know, who have
lived lives of faithfulness andare honored, you know, in this
great section of scripture, andit talks, it concludes that

(20:36):
section by saying that they werelooking for a better country, a
heavenly one.
Therefore, god is not ashamedto be called their God, for he
has prepared a city for them.
And what I hear you saying, andwhat I like about this passage,
is that these were people thatwere living in this world, but
they were looking towards abetter one and they were living

(21:00):
in the light of that better one.
You know what I'm saying.
There was a continuity betweenthis world and that better one.
They lived in a larger worldand there wasn't this strict
separation.

Yeah, I'm thinking of it's almost like you could
interpret that to be they had avision for what life should be.
They had a vision for theeternal city for the future,
where God was in plan, and withthat vision did they just sit on
their hands?

and wait for that to come about.

They said no, with that vision, I will work towards
that.
I will be involved in that somany times.
We think you know there wasthis great change in the church
in the early.
Rodney starks talks about allthe wonderful thing that the
christians did in the firstcentury and you know, healing,
saving children and taking careof the sick and this sort of

(21:50):
thing and during plagues, andyou kind of say, well, they
weren't afraid of death.
But I also think they had theSpirit of God in them and the
Spirit moved them to do good.
Yeah to be.

They just were moved to do good, to be like
Jesus it wasn't just whole andjesus himself, you know, lived
this perfect life and laid downhis life for the good of others.
And they were just doing whathe did, you know.
They were willing to lay downtheir lives um so that others
could live, and that's superrevolutionary, by the way go
ahead, yeah I.

I also like the allusion to the land.
He brings us back to our landand I've been thinking about my
own life because you know it'slike I'm going to be retiring
soon.
You guys know that and youthink about well, what's my
place in the world?
You know what will it be,what's it going to be for the
next 20 years?
You know who am I, why am Ihere, and and what I read in

(22:49):
these verses, when he calls usback to our land, he has a place
for us, he has a land for us,he has a.
He has a land for the widowthat has orphans in North Korea
right now our widow, you know, awidow with three children in
North Korea.
She has a land for her, that hewith three children in North
Korea.
He has a land for her thatshe's supposed to take dominion
over and she can live a kingdomlife in that situation.

(23:10):
Is it easy?

No, Is it hard, very hard?
Is it ever going to be perfecton this side of Jesus' return?
No, but it doesn't mean therecan't be real progress, but the
idea that each of us have.

Right, and each of us just have our own land and
we're called to our land.
And I, and each of us just haveour own land and we're called
to our land, and I don't have tolive yours, you don't have to
live mine, but we each have aland and I love that picture.

Luke, I know you've got some thoughts you want to
share too, and maybe this is agood point to bring you in.
And how would either you reactto what Dwight is saying or what
new thoughts would you put onthe table for us today?

Luke Allen (23:45):
Yeah, I don't have many new thoughts, but just to
summarize, this is really fun.
I'm enjoying this.
I remember a few years ago whenI grasped this concept of the
fuller meaning of Easter.
It really opened my eyes towhat we're celebrating here and
just made this such a more full,beautiful time of year, getting

(24:07):
the fuller picture of whyChrist came to die to save us
for eternity to himself, butalso to save us to do something
like you guys were talking about, and to save us and then send
us his Holy Spirit, the helper.
Right.
Why is he called the helper?

(24:27):
Because he's here to help us todo something you know, there's
something here we need help with.
What is that?
What's our mission, what's ourpurpose?
When you were talking, dwight,I loved how you went back to
Ezekiel in a talk about Easter,and I love the way that we often
go through the full picture ofGod's story throughout history,

(24:49):
from creation to fall, toredemption, easter, consummation
at the end of history and it'sso helpful to put it in this
bigger lens because it justmakes sense of the full story
right?
Francis Schaeffer once said thebasic problem with Christians
in this country I believe he wastalking about America is that
they see things in bits andpieces instead of in totals, and

(25:12):
I think that's so true.
We understand the Easter story,but we don't understand the
Easter story beyond.
Christ died to save us, tosalvation in heaven.
We get that.
That's a bit, a very importantbit, but the whole story there
is.
He also saved us to dosomething with the rest of our
lives here, and if we miss that,that's a giant issue.

(25:34):
That's a giant issue.

The church is failing to do the work that the
church is but God has called thechurch to do.
We're being disobedient, yeah.

Luke Allen (25:41):
Yeah, and if I could just make this, like, as clear
as possible um, I work inmarketing, um, I went to school
for marketing.
The basic sales approach youguys will start recognizing this
everywhere once you, once youstart looking is um, if you want
to sell something to someone,you, you, you show them a pain
point in their life and then youagitate that pain point a
little bit, make them a littleuncomfortable, and then you

(26:03):
offer them a solution.
You know, like with runningshoes, you can see that.
You know your shoes are bad,they don't work anymore, agitate
the pain.
You should buy our shoes, youknow, and here in this, if we
miss this fuller story of whatit means to be a Christian and
to live in this born-again lifethat we've been given to us

(26:23):
thanks to Christ's work on thecross, if we fail to see our
life and this purpose we have onearth pre-heaven as important
and fail to grasp how to live inthis life, then the issue there
is yeah, like you were sayingDad, christians don't.
Like you were saying dad,christians don't make much of an

(26:48):
impact.
We live in cultures that promoteand, you know, celebrates evil,
and yet there's a ton ofChristians, at least in the US
right now, there's a lot ofso-called Christians, you know,
that claim to be Christians,going to church every Sunday,
but we see just horrificinjustice around us.
We see lies that are believedbroad scale.
We see other countries aroundthe world where there's
populations that claim to be 90,95% Christian and yet in those

(27:12):
same countries we see corruption, we see trafficking, we see all
these genocide.
Yeah, yeah, it's true in thecase of uh, some countries.
Um, so there's a real issue here.
The issue is Christ, christiansaren't having an impact on the
world around them to an extentthat will push back against
corruption in a real way,that'll push back against those

(27:35):
injustices, so on and so forth.
So that's a pain point here,and the solution, I think, is
what we're trying to presenttoday, is that the Easter story
is about Christ's redemption onthe cross to save us to himself,
so that we can be adopted intohis family, but also to do
something.
To do something, you know, itreminds me of Ephesians.

2.
To empower us to do the missionthat he called us to do in the
beginning, but we weren't ableto.
Yeah right, yeah, exactly thebig mission the full story, the
redemption of all things, as itsays in Colossians.

And I think we sideline the work of the Spirit
of God in that moving of us todo the right thing.
At least I feel that I've lostout on that in my life.
I never realized that there isa source of power that God wants
to give us in and of himselfthat we can draw on to do the
right thing and have wisdom todo the right thing.

I do think there's a lot of talk, especially in
charismatic circles, about theSpirit, but not in this way and
maybe I'm missing it.
There's a lot of emphasis onthe Holy Spirit, but it's almost
more of a kind of a magicaltype of thing.

It's usually for healing, for tongues, for, yeah,
sign gifts which are all right,I'm not saying but, but, but
you don't hear in that uh, thisthe power to do good, you know?

um, because you're right, I think dwight people get
a little bit.
They get kind of theheebie-jeebies when you talk
that way, because they feel likeoh my gosh, you know, you're,
you're are you talking aboutwork, salvation, and we're like,
no, I'm not.
Salvation's already been takencare of, you know, through the
perfect work of Jesus Christ andthat substitutionary atonement,
you know.
But we are saved, it says inEphesians, to do good works

(29:19):
which God prepared in advance.
Right, that's the part thatsometimes we overlook.

Yeah, Exactly, and if you do a study of good works,
even in the New Testament, youwill find many, many references
at the end of chapters writtenby Paul and others that say why
are we here?
Why does God sanctify us?
Why does he bring us to himself?
It's so that we can do goodworks, that we can be involved
in doing good.

Luke Allen (29:46):
Yeah, I mean back to Ezekiel, the dry bones becoming
alive again.
When you were talking aboutthat, dwight, at the beginning
of this discussion, it was justmy brain went straight to what
you were just saying, thatEphesians 2, and we all know it.
You know, and you were dead inyour transgressions and sins, in
which you used to live underthe rule of this world, so on

(30:07):
and so forth, talking about howwe were in sin under the rule of
Satan.
But in verse 4, we have become.
But because of his great lovefor us, god, who is rich in
mercy, has made us alive inChrist, even when we were dead
in our transgressions.
And it is by grace you havebeen saved.
And God has raised us up withChrist and seated us with him in

(30:29):
the heavenly realm in ChristJesus, in order that in the
coming age we might show theincompatible riches of his grace
, expressed in his kindness tous in Jesus Christ.
And then this part, verse 8, forit is by grace you have been
saved, through faith, and thisis not of yourself, it is the
gift of God, not by works, sothat no one can boast, for we

(30:49):
are God's handiwork, created inChrist Jesus to do good works
which God has prepared inadvance for us to do.
So it kind of lays it out thereyou were dead in your
transgressions and sins.
Now you've been made alive inChrist To do what To do good
works which God has prepared inadvance for us to do.
And it also throws in there butit's not by your works that

(31:11):
you've been saved, so that noman can boast and, by the way,
that is the calling of our lives.

That gives incredible purpose to every
Christian life.
That's the great adventure.
What is that good work that Godhas prepared?
It's different for everyone andit's not just for pastors or
big-time church leaders.
It's for everyone.
Everyone's got an importantwork to do and I'm convinced

(31:36):
that if we all understood thatand we all did the work that God
has for us to do you leave thescope of that up to Him, right,
you leave the scope that up tohim that we all did the work
that God called for us to do, wewould see incredible change in
our cities, our families.
I mean you know we would seeincredible change for the good.

Luke Allen (31:58):
And also, yeah, leaving that up to God's so
important, but also justsurrendering that to God and
just saying I'm here to do goodworks, which you've prepared in
advance for me to do, and Idon't care if these seem like
important works or if I see theoutcome or any of that.
Um, a lot of times we, we, we goso quickly to I need to see

(32:19):
impact and I need to see that myrole is important.
So of course, we're our ourmind's going to go to I need to
be a missionary in Africa, andsome you know tribe.
Or I need to be a pastor, likeBilly Graham, you know, and we
kind of rank importance, likethose guys are so important
Christians.
That's not up to us to decide.

That's up to God.
And then the same with theimpact is.

Luke Allen (32:38):
That's not up to us to decide.

That's up to God and he can do what he wants and
we may not see the fruit on thisside.
You know this gets back to theHebrews passage of looking
forward to that, you know, tothat better country.
You know we're just.
Our call is to be faithful nowin this present place, as we
keep our eyes fixed on thatfuture place.

And you know I had a this morning I had breakfast
with a friend and you knowthinking about this well, what's
what is good?
And you know what's our role inthis world and world?
And and he he was sharing justabout a work situation with for
himself he's got two, two bosses, both want his attention and
time and they're kind of againstone another and they're

(33:20):
basically both being selfish andthey're both being deceptive a
bit and they're trying to drawhim into one of each of their
camps and he's stuck betweenthem.
You know, but basically youknow.
Then the question is well,what's good for somehow he has
to do good in that situation.
He has to bring expose their,their selfishness and yet call

(33:40):
them to to do the right thing.
So we're not talking about, youknow, major stuff here.
We're talking about daily life,doing the right thing, doing
things that bring peace betweentwo rivals.
You know, in a workplace, in avery big, extremely, you know,
productive industry.

That's a really good point, dwight.
Yeah, no, it's, it's again,it's not.
God may not call you to be thenext billy, but in those daily,
everyday circumstances, and Ioften think, by the way, the
hardest place to do this isamongst those that you live the
closest with your own familymembers, the people that you
work with.

(34:18):
You know that know you the best.
This is really where it getsput to the test, you know, in
terms of living out faithfullythe Christian life.

I think the other reality, too, is that it calls
you into suffering Oftentimes ifyou say okay, God, I want to do
what's best in this situation,I want to do what's right, I
want to do what brings you glory.

It invariably, or not always, but it can call you
into suffering.
Well.
Well, it puts you at odds withan evil world.

Right, exactly I mean the evil world isn't going
to stand up and give you anovation for doing good so I mean
, we talk a lot about sufferingand persecution as if it's just
out there, but we, you have towalk into it basically,
basically in God's plan.

Yeah, that's the Hebrew passage again, the hall
of faith is because they werewilling to be persecuted and
face that persecution.
Well, if I could guys I don'twant to conclude what you're
saying I'd love to put a fewmore thoughts on the table.
I think they all kind of buildtogether here.
You know, as I was reflectingon Easter, I was thinking about

(35:32):
and this Dwight.
I want to come back to a pointthat you made earlier about.
I think you talked about fireand a destruction, and you know
we were 2 Peter, yeah right.
Yeah, maybe you could.
Could you have that in front ofyou there?
You know we were second Peter.

Yeah, right, yeah, maybe you could.
Could you have that in front ofyou there?
Second Peter, three, 10, I'llread it in the ESV it says this
but the day of the Lord willcome like a thief, and then the
heavens will pass away with aroar and the heavenly bodies
will be burned up and dissolvedin the earth and the works that
are done on it will be exposed.
Now they're saying exposed.
Maybe I should find one thatthe King James.
What does that verse say?

Luke Allen (36:08):
Be laid.
Bare I see that.

Yeah, the NIV says laid bare.

Yeah, I learned it in the King James originally.

Luke Allen (36:17):
The earth and the works in it will not be found.

The King James that I read.
The earth also, and the worksthat are therein shall be burned
up.

Luke Allen (36:26):
Yeah.

So it's destroyed, opposed to expose and then going
on to verse 11, dwight.

It says since since everything will be destroyed in
this way, what kind of peopleought you to be?
You ought to live holy andgodly lives as you look forward
to the day of god, and speedit's coming.
The day will bring about thedestruction of the heavens by
fire and the elements will meltin the heat, but, in keeping
with his promise, we are lookingforward to a new heaven and a

(36:54):
new earth where righteousnessdwells.
Yeah, I wanted to talk aboutwhen we think about death and
resurrection, we're talkingabout something that is being
destroyed.
In this case, death destroysyour body.
You know Jesus, when he died onthe cross, I mean, his body was

(37:16):
utterly destroyed, torn apartand then laid into the grave,
you know.
And yet on the third day, youknow, it rose again.
And when the disciples saw theresurrected body, person of
Jesus, there was this incrediblecontinuity with his, you know,

(37:37):
with what they knew of him frombefore that time.
You know they recognized him asJesus, they touched him.
He had a physical body, he atefish.
You know, he talked to them.
There was this incrediblecontinuity.
And I was thinking about thatbecause I do think that we, as
Christians, what we tend to dois we think of the.

(37:59):
You know, when we think ofheaven or the kingdom of heaven,
we think of it as somethingthat's wholly different.
And we read a verse like thisand we read how everything here
on earth will be utterlydestroyed.
It'll be just completely wipedout.
And what comes after that inheaven will be very different.

(38:21):
It'll be clouds and angels withharps and whatever it is.
You know, we have thisdifferent image of what that's
going to be, and I don't thinkit's a very biblical or clear
image.
But I want to talk about thisword continuity.
Even in the Ezekiel passage,Dwight, you see it, you see, I
mean it starts with dry bones.

(38:43):
I mean these were people thatwere living, had died, and all
that was left were just bones,just dry bones.
I mean these were people thatwere living, had died, and all
that was left were just bones,just dry bones.
And then the question is Lord,are you able to make these dry
bones live again?
And he puts flesh back on themand raises them up as living
human beings so that they looklike they did before they were

(39:04):
dry bones.
I mean, that's the idea of theresurrection, and I do think
it's important for us to see acontinuity, you know, I think,
yes, there will be a great fire,a great burning, a great
shaking at the end of time, butthere's going to be a
resurrection, not just of ourown bodies, but we see it even

(39:26):
in other ways that are kind ofintriguing.
Not just of our own bodies, butwe see it even in other ways
that are kind of intriguing.
It talks about a new heaven anda new earth.
There's going to be somehow anearth like this one, but free of
all evil, purified of all evil,with God reigning in present,

(39:52):
in person.
I should say there's going tobe dramatic differences.
It's going to look like theGarden of Eden again, but it's
not going to be wholly different.
You see other pictures of it,images of it, I think, when, for
example, Darrow talks aboutthis passage a lot, how, when

(40:12):
the new—well, first of allJerusalem itself, the city of
Jerusalem.
I mean, there is the oldJerusalem, the one that we see
today, you can go, travel thereright now and then there's a new
Jerusalem.
There's a continuity betweenthe two.
Although likely it'll bedestroyed and completely burned,
There'll be kind of aresurrection, if you will, and
we'll see a new Jerusalem andeven the passage, again, that

(40:36):
Daryl loves to quote.
You see it in Isaiah and inRevelation, where the kings of
the earth bring the glory andthe splendor of the nations into
the new Jerusalem as gifts, notunlike the gifts that the Magi
brought to Jesus when he camethe first time.
This is the second time and yousee again kings bringing gifts,
the glory and the honor of thenations.

(40:58):
And, as dear often says, whatis that?
It's the work that's been donethat bring glory and honor to
God on this side.
That may have been destroyed,but it's been resurrected, if
you will, and it's brought intothe new Jerusalem Again.
That is, we're seeing,definitely through a window,
darkly, but I think we tend tothink as Christians of a

(41:19):
discontinuity.
You know that it's going to beradically and dramatically
different and this world, allthat we see around us, is going
to be utterly destroyed andnever come back.
But I don't think that's thepicture that the Bible puts
forward.
I think it does put forward apicture of dramatic destruction,
fire shaking, not unlike adeath that we experience.

(41:41):
This body that I live in isgoing to die and go into a grave
and it's going to be decomposed, but then there's a
resurrection and I'm going to bein heaven with a new body
that's going to look like thisbody in some way that I can't
fully understand, but it's notgoing to be dramatically
different.
There's a continuity.
I do think this matters.

(42:02):
You know, this perspectivematters because I often hear
Christians say it just doesn'tmatter, Everything will be
destroyed.
So what difference does it makewhat I do here on earth?
I think it matters.
When we think about the.
You know, what does it matter?
What I do to my body, for thatmatter, I can, just doesn't
matter, right?
It's just a piece of matter, apiece of flesh that's going to

(42:24):
get wrecked and destroyed.
I just don't think that's theway we ought to think.
There's a continuity betweenthe two, and what we do now, in
this present time, matters forthe future.
There's going to be adestruction, but there's going
to be a resurrection of our ownlives and even possibly more

(42:44):
than that.
Anyways, I'd love your thoughtsor reactions on that, in light
of what we're talking about, toyou guys.

Yeah, I think that matters a lot, because, first of
all, 2 Peter 3.10, 3.11 canactually be interpreted
dissolved too, not everythingdestroyed, but everything
dissolved.
And when you dissolve something, it boils down to its essence.
You see what it really is, andso you'll see the wheat and the
tares, you'll see the good andthe bad, clearly.

So I don't think there's a problem, though, even
if it means not dissolved butjust utterly destroyed.
You know, god's able to bringdry bones back to life, right?

Right, but there's a situation what about now?
And it bothers.
No, it doesn't bother me, itbothers yeah it does bother me.
It's like okay, this lifedoesn't really matter.
How I take care of my bodydoesn't really matter.
Well, it matters, if you know,for my own personal selfish
interest but, it doesn't matterto God and somehow this life

(43:49):
matters a lot.
He put us here for 60, 70, 80years, whatever we got.
But it really matters?
Does it just matter so that wecan get others into the lifeboat
, to get them to heaven?
That's why it matters.
I don't think so, because thepicture that God invested so
much time in creating this earth, creating mankind and creating
us the way he did so much timein creating this earth, creating
mankind and creating us the wayhe did, and making us in his

(44:11):
image, of giving us agency, andand then it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.
Well, did he change his mind?
Cause it mattered in Genesisone and two, horribly, and he
matters in the old Testament alot, so, but now it doesn't
matter because we're saved bygrace.
Why did he change his mind?
Now it doesn't matter.
Oh, it's all going to bedestroyed anyway.
So it really doesn't matter.

(44:32):
I don't get it.
I don't think that's right,yeah.

Luke Allen (44:37):
Well, it almost feels hypocritical to me.
If you have that view and youjust think like it's all about
getting people into the lifeboat, it's all about saving souls,
and it's like.
But if you're not living at allin a way that is good, true,
beautiful, loving, honorable,just, you know, peaceful, then

(45:01):
you kind of look like ahypocrite, don't you Like?
If we're not living out thisfuller life, doing good deeds,
creating beauty in this world,creating order in this world,
doing good deeds, creatingbeauty in this world, creating
order in this world, then whenan outsider looks at a Christian
, they're like well, that's notvery attractive.

What are you guys doing there?
It's not really helping anybody, as far as I can see, in this
world.
I'm going to be the advocatehere because even there, luke,
I'm thinking so don't say itdoesn't matter, because you look
like a hypocrite.
And if you look like ahypocrite then nobody will
follow Jesus and nobody will getinto the lifeboat.
And it reminds me of my dad.
He used to love to take care ofhis yard and it was the most
beautiful yard on the block.
And I'd say, dad, that's such abeautiful yard and he goes yes,

(45:47):
I hope it's a good testimony sohe could invest all that effort
into that yard to make itbeautiful.
But for him the only thing thatreally matters was does it help
people get into the lifeboat?
Is it something that will helppeople follow Jesus, which is
probably?
I mean, I'm not pushing backcompletely, but I thought, dad,
that yard is good.
Just because it's good, you'recreating something beautiful.

(46:08):
You're creating something thatGod wanted to be beautiful.
He is pleased when he looks ata beautiful yard.
It gives him glory that thatyard is so beautiful and you
worked so hard to make itbeautiful.
Yeah, that's a good point, butmy dad had to counter it and no,
it's got to be a good testimony.
That's why I really do it.

Luke Allen (46:28):
No, it's got to be a good testimony that's, that's
why yeah, no, it's true, andbecause sometimes what we do,
that is good and god's sight isseen as evil in the world's
sight.
So it's not about you know.

Well, yeah, you can do it for selfish reasons too,
so well I think that's a goodexample of kind of what I'm
talking about, too dwight, whereI think we tend, especially
when it comes to created thingsyou know the landscape yards,
whatever it is, you know thelandscape yards whatever it is,
you know the environment we tendto take a lower view of these
things.
As Christians, you know they'renot as important as spiritual

(46:54):
things, heavenly things, and Ithink we tend to take that lower
view.
We wouldn't go so far as to sayit's unimportant, but we take a
lower view of it because wehave this idea that it's all
going to be destroyed and wedon't look beyond that.
We don't see the continuity,the new earth, the new heavens,
that God values these things.
They're not just going to bewiped out and destroyed.

(47:17):
He cares about them too much.
He loves them.
There's going to be a continuitybetween this earth and the next
earth.
There's going to be dramaticdifference.
No sin Jesus is going to bedramatic difference.
No sin Jesus is going to reignin person.
We will worship him face toface, but there's going to be a
continuity and that bringsgreater value to the way that we

(47:39):
interact with the creationright now, including your yard,
doesn't it?
It seems to me that it doesanyways.
If you think it's just not alljust a waste of time, because
it's all going to be justutterly wiped out.
Yeah, you can say things aregoing to be wiped out.
We can say that's coming.
You can say this body of minewill go into the grave and

(48:00):
decompose.
But we can also say, because ofEaster, there will be a
resurrection.

Luke Allen (48:06):
So just to dig into this, dad, you're saying, okay,
there's new heavens and a newearth.
You're saying that there'sgoing to be some kind of
familiarity, this continuitybetween this earth and the earth
to come heaven.
You're saying that we seethrough the glass dimly as of
now.
What is that?
Is that in Philippians?

2 Corinthians, I think it is.
Yeah, we see through a glass.

Luke Allen (48:29):
Yeah, Anyways, but we're seeing, we're still seeing
through it.
It doesn't say we don't see atall.
So so what is this that we'reseeing?
You know, sometimes when I'mout in the morning skiing on a
beautiful sunny day, beautifulweather, blue skies, skiing
along through the snow, I'm like, wow, this kind of feels like
heaven.
Am I going to be able to ski inheaven on a perfectly

(48:52):
snow-covered mountain?
Is that what you're saying?

yeah, I, I think so .
I, I don't think you're goingto be a disembodied spirit
floating around in the etherwith a harp, you know, singing
praise songs to jesus.
Um, I think it.
I don't.
I just think that imagery thatwe have, or we like to also talk
about streets of gold and kindof the prosperity gospel side of
it, I guess.
But no, I think that there'sgoing to be a continuity between

(49:19):
this earth and the earth tocome, the new heavens and the
new earth, and, yeah, that wewill be embodied in the same way
that we're embodied right nowto interact with this creation
in a loving and a stewardshiptype of way.
There's going to be, we'regoing to have new bodies,
resurrected bodies, you know, inorder to interact with the

(49:42):
physical world around us,including things like skiing, I
hope, around us, includingthings like skiing, I hope so.
I just want us to reflect alittle bit on the continuity.
You know that, yes, there canbe a destruction, and I think
this is what we see.
Again, getting back to Easterwith Jesus, you know, jesus
showed us what the resurrectedlife body looked like and that

(50:04):
there was this continuity, thislife after death that was
eternal.
And so, again, I don't want tosay maybe too much more about it
, because obviously it's again.
We're seeing through a glass,darkly, and none of us.
It's like we're looking forwardto that country and that world.

(50:25):
It's out there but we've neverfully lived in it, so we don't
know exactly what it's gonna,what it's gonna look like,
although we've got enough, Ithink, of a picture from the
scriptures to kind of have someyeah, some thoughts.

Luke Allen (50:38):
Yeah, I think we can take guesses that are probably
not terrible, guesses like wemight be able to ski you know,
jesus and his resurrected bodymeets the disciples and cooks
them up a fish breakfast youknow yeah I bet we're going to
be eating really good food inheaven yeah, you know, oh, yeah
really good food.
Uh, you know, we can interactwith this world.
Adam, in the garden of eden,when it was perfect pre-sin, was

(51:01):
working.
That's right in heaven we'realso going to be working.
You know, if you think the, thegreat cathedrals of europe are
beautiful, think about thecathedrals that we might build
in heaven.
You know, I think we're goingto be doing that kind of stuff.
So it's a guess, but you know,maybe.

So how does?
Yeah, there's another piece ofcontinuity too that I it comes
from the the ephesians, chapterone.
I believe that you were reading, luke, that, uh, when we are,
you know, we were dead in ourtrespasses and sins, but we've
been made alive.
And then it goes on and it saysand you've been seated in the
heavenly places with ChristJesus that we're talking about
right now, not after you diethat there's a continuity even

(51:38):
right now, presently, that weare in this kind of heavenly
realm, you know.
So it gets that line betweenheaven and earth gets a little
blurry sometimes, and I thinkthat's not a bad thing.
So go ahead, dwight.

Luke Allen (51:52):
Yeah.

Yeah, and that's the part yeah.
That's the part I would like to.
That's the part that Iemphasize in my own life.
I don't understand the distancebetween today and heaven or the
end of Revelation.
I don't understand that.
But in terms of how I livetoday, I it has to mean

(52:14):
something.
It has to mean something that Ishould be working towards Eden
in my life today, in my family'slife, in my kids' life, in my
work life with you guys, thatsomehow my presence should
contribute to Eden on earth,because God invested so much in
this earth and he wants at leasta picture of it here, a glimpse

(52:35):
of it here, and he gave us hisspirit to help us do that.
So I, just for me, I want toemphasize this life matters and
the goodness in this life andthe Eden that we create in this
life matters.

Eden meaning the garden.
I want to let all of ourlisteners know that your
intention, your heart there,you've been obedient to that and
we've been the recipientsjoyfully Luke and I and others
of that of you really livingintentionally, faithfully, as a
Christian right now in yourrelationships, including your

(53:13):
relationships at work, which iswhy I do not want you to retire,
dwight.
I really don't want you toretire, thank you.

Luke Allen (53:18):
But, iight, I really don't want you to retire, thank
you, but I understand, Iunderstand.

I understand.

Luke Allen (53:24):
So no, you are very faithful, You've been very
faithful and we've been blessedbecause of that.
Dwight, I just want to say thatyeah, One thing, dwight, that
you've clarified for me in sucha helpful way.
It was funny.
I was listening to a podcast werecorded over a year ago now

(53:45):
and you had a couple lines whereyou were explaining the full
story of creation, like you didwhen we started this episode,
and it just really helped meclarify the Easter story.
And you made the connectionbetween the two ginormous words,
one in the Old Testament andone in the New Testament.
The one in the Old Testament iseverything and the one in the
New Testament is all things.
We see this description ofeverything in the creation

(54:09):
mandate in Genesis 128, and Godgave Adam rulership over
everything.
We also see that echoed inPsalm 8, I believe it's verse 6.

Yeah.

Luke Allen (54:22):
And you put everything under their feet and
you made them to rule over theworks of your hands and put
everything under their feet.
Yeah, so in the Old Testamentcreation mandate we clearly are
given the responsibility to ruleover everything, but we can't
do that as we see in the OldTestament creation mandate, we
clearly are given theresponsibility to rule over
everything, but we can't do thatas we see in the Old Testament.
We can try, but we can't dothat until we have the help of

(54:45):
Christ at Easter.
And now we see in Colossians 1,15 through 20, actually verse
19, I guess it is for in him allthe fullness of God was pleased
to dwell, referring to Jesusand through him, jesus to
reconcile to himself all things,whether on earth or in heaven,

(55:08):
by making peace by the blood ofthe cross.
So that's the all things there.
So in the Old Testament we aregiven rulership over everything.
We just can't rule it well.
But in the New Testament wehear that Christ is now
reconciling all things tohimself on earth and in heaven.
And who's he doing that through?
Through us.
So now, because of Christ'swork on the cross, because the

(55:31):
Holy Spirit's now in us, now weactually can reconcile all
things to God, which is soexciting.

Even that's a little bit of a mystery.
It's like well, why didn't hejust give the Holy Spirit to
Israel immediately?
Why did he wait for theatonement when he's actually
done the work that makes us free, makes us pure in his eyes, and
he didn't do that until Jesus?
That's 2,000 years.

(56:01):
So poor Israel.
But if you go back and look atthe work of the Holy Spirit in
the Old Testament, you will seethat he shows up and when he
does, it's a good day.
It's a good day that persondoes Nebuchadnezzar.
No, Pharaoh looked at Danieland and said this is a man in
whom is the spirits of the gods.

(56:22):
He didn't know that it was thespirit of god, but it was the
spirit.
the holy spirit was in daniel,and look what daniel did yeah,
yeah they said that of joseph,said that of the, the craftsman
in the temple, throughout theOld Testament.
There's these times where evenSaul if you look at Saul's life
he had three good days, I think,and it was three days where the

(56:44):
Spirit came upon him and he wasfilled with the Spirit, and
then he prophesied, he won amighty battle and he did some
important things, and after thathe just went crazy and lost his
mind, anyway.
So why am I saying all that?
I?
I just it's interesting how thespirit is present from the
beginning, but for some reasonhe is poured out at pentecost

(57:09):
and we are the benefactors ofthat.
But do we know it?

yeah, I think, know , looking back at the Old
Testament, in Israel, dwight, Ithink you know the purpose of
God raising up the nation ofIsrael, as you said, was to be
well, and it says in the Mosesduring the Exodus the whole
world is mine.
God loves all the nations, butI'm going to raise you up, I'm

(57:44):
going to give you my law and myspirit and you are going to be a
kingdom of priests.
You're going to reveal thetruth about God and reality
through the way that you live,the way that you worship.
You're to be a model nation forthe nations that I love.
In other words, you've got apurpose in this world.
You're not just to sit thereand go oh, isn't it nice.

(58:05):
I have this very specialrelationship with God and he
doesn't care about anyone else.
No, and yet I think the church,in other words, they were a
missionary people.
They had a mission to be that.
You know that model nation,that kingdom of priests, and you
see that reflected, you know,in beautiful Psalms like Psalm

(58:27):
67.
Lord, make your face shine uponus and bless us so that your
name, your ways, may be known onthis earth, your salvation
among all the nations.
That's correct, that's thepurpose of Israel and yet the
church.
We can sometimes forget that.
You know, god just loves us.
He saved us.
We can go to church, we canenjoy our holy huddle.
No, we are saved for a purposeto be a light, to be salt and

(58:52):
light, just in the same way thatIsrael was.
The difference is that we havethat power of the Holy Spirit,
that resurrected power of theHoly Spirit, fully, in a way
that, as you said in the OldTestament, there was just some
glimpses of it.

Luke Allen (59:11):
If we could get a couple examples here.
Dwight, I'm looking at you.
Yeah, so we've been saved atEaster and because of Christ's
work on the cross.
Now he is reconciling allthings to himself and he's
invited us to walk alongside himin reconciling all things to
himself, and he's given us thehelper to walk alongside us and
to help us in that mission.

(59:32):
That's what we're here for.
We're here to, uh, to tellother people about Jesus and to
live out a life that isreconciling all things to
himself.
Uh, how do we do that?
How do we do that in our work,in our family?
How do we do that in um, ourhobbies and our recreation and
what we do for fun?
What does this look likepractically?

I think I I I'm not alone in this.
But I think I'm not alone inthis.
I think I'm with you guys aswell, but one of us just to
start the day by saying Lord,I'm a dead man, walking without
you, I am a zombie.
It's the spirit of God thatgives me life, and if you're not
with me today, I can do thingsthat will count for nothing, or

(01:00:17):
you can breathe life into mylife and those around me through
me, because, he says, streamsof living waters will actually
flow from us.
His spirit flows from us toothers, and so I don't know how
that works.
I certainly don't do it great,but that's my prayer.
I think you start the day andyou start a meeting.

(01:00:37):
We did this, we prayed beforethis meeting today.
That was, you know, invokingGod's presence and his spirit in
our lives.
Go ahead, Scott.

Scott Allen (01:00:45):
I think we've already talked about this, luke,
you know, it's not limiting thework of God just to a gospel
proclamation, as important asthat is.
Or as a witness, as you weresaying, dwight, about your dad,
you, important as that is.
Or as a witness, as you weresaying, dwight, about your dad,
you know, but bringing you know.
Or just kind of, luke.
You mentioned Schaefer's quote,which is very powerful seeing
things in bits and pieces ratherthan in wholes.
So we bring it into our dailylives by seeing our lives as a

(01:01:08):
whole.
Right, and how can I be faithful, how can I do what is right and
pleasing to God and good Rightnow, in the circumstances that
he has me in the relationships,the work that he's called me to
do, that that's somehow notseparate from the mission of God
.
You know, we often separatethese things.

(01:01:28):
You know.
Well, family is just a placewhere I eat food and I can have
children or whatever it is, andwork is just a place to earn
money.
But the real work of God is,you know, that work I'm going to
do of evangelism or invitingpeople to church.
That's the real mission of God.
No, I mean, yeah, that's thework of God, but it's bigger
than that, it's a whole.
So I think you know we'vealready covered that ground

(01:01:50):
pretty well.

Luke Allen (01:01:51):
Yeah, I remember that.
I'm just looking for likespecific examples to help.
You know, give a little.

Dwight Vogt (01:01:56):
I remember when Scott and I met the one of the
head designer for the iPad, the.

Apple iPad.
It was such a good story, itwas such great yeah, and just
how he would.

He would call on God spirit to give him wisdom in
solving problems in thedevelopment process of that iPad
.
And I just think of yeah, justin his engineering, you know,
and just in excellenceEngineering solutions.

Yeah, it was amazing to hear him talk about
how he lived out.
You know his faith in a fullway, right, not just you know,
it wasn't just here.
I am as an engineer at Applebuilding the iPad so that I can
be a witness to my co-workers.
I'm sure he was and that wasvery important to him, but how
can I bring beauty, elegance,excellence into the design of

(01:02:43):
this thing?
And then I remember him talkingto Dwight about how, you know,
he was working with a bunch ofnon-Christians who were, you
know, overachievers in SiliconValley and they were all kind of
competing against each otherand there was, all you know,
there was all sorts of tribalismand factions and this and that.
Right, you know office politics, and he really worked to be a

(01:03:03):
peacemaker and bring groupstogether.
I was just impressed even withthat, you know.

So yeah, he was a really remarkable guy.
Yeah, it was a great story.

It's just a great story.

Yeah, who said that?
Pope John Paul ii?
Um, actually I have right heresaid a faith that does not
become a culture, that isn'tlived out in the way that you do
things around here, is a faiththat is not fully accepted, not
entirely thought out and notfaithfully lived.
So if we're, if we'refaithfully living out this faith
, it will become a culture.
It will affect our ourworkplace culture, like it did

(01:03:37):
for that guy.
It will affect our familyculture.
It will become a culture.
It will affect our workplaceculture, like it did for that
guy.
It will affect our familyculture and it will affect our
culture abroad in larger ways.
In fact.
Just to get on the quote trainhere, I love that quote, also by
NT Wright.
I think it's at the beginningof one of our core videos, and
it says the gospel is not abouthow to escape the world.

(01:04:09):
The gospel is that thecrucified and risen Christ is
the Lord of this world.
And it says live this out,create culture and transformed
culture, take part in thistransforming work that Christ
started on the cross and if yougo back to Genesis 1 and 2, that
transforming work was actuallydelegated to us.

That was his plan initially that man would rule
over heaven and earth.
So he's depending on us.

I know NT Wright can say controversial things and
he can be kind of a hot buttonin evangelical conversations,
but he spoke really powerfultruth right there.
I just think that's such agreat place to end our
conversation today with the factthat the resurrection Easter
means that the transformationcan happen in us, the dry bones
can be brought back to life, andthat we can be a part of God's

(01:05:03):
transforming work.
And we've got missions to do.
We've got good works that he'sprepared in advance for us to do
right now.
So I'd like to leave ourlisteners with that important
thought Be faithful, Know whatthose things are, be faithful in
doing them.
Don't see, don't break theworld up into.

(01:05:23):
This is really important.
This is less important.
See it in terms of holes andcontinuity more than we do, I
think is a good challenge for ustoday.
Dwight, thank you for your superwonderful thoughts and, luke,
for your great contribution aswell today, and I just want to
wish all of our listeners a veryhappy Easter and I hope that

(01:05:43):
it's more meaningful for you asyou reflect on some of these
important and beautiful truths.
This has been another episodeof Ideas have Consequences.
The podcast of the DiscipleNations Alliance disciple
nations like this.

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What Were You Saved to Do? | Easter Special

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