Why Are the Jews So Hated? | Darrow Miller - Ideas Have Consequences

Episode Transcript
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Scott D. Allen (00:00):
The hatred, the anti-Semitism is rooted in the
fact that in a fallen world,people hate God and they don't
want to live under God.
They want to be gods themselves.

Darrow Miller (00:15):
And it's kind of as simple as that it associates
you with the living God, with abiblical worldview, with the
concept of a moral universe.
If you do not want thosethings— and a fallen world does
not.
Yeah, you have to get rid ofGod and you have to get rid of
the Jews, but it's not just theJews, because eventually it'll

(00:36):
be to get rid of Christians.

And when Hitler went after the Jews and rounded
them up, he didn't care whetherthey were pagan Jews who didn't
believe or not.
They were just.

Luke Allen (00:44):
Jews.
It's a guilty by association.
The Jews, even if they don'tlike God, if they've rejected
God, if they hate God and ifthey've totally turned away from
him, they're still wearing thejersey that says God on it.

Welcome again, everybody, to another episode of
Ideas have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.
I'm Scott Allen, I'm thepresident here at the DNA and
I'm joined today by team membersDwight Vogt, luke Allen and
team member Darrell Miller,who's also kind of functioning
as our special guest today.
Darrell, it's great also kindof functioning as our special
guest today, darrell, it's greatto have you back on Ideas have
Consequences.

It's great to be back on.
I really miss my time with youguys in this and maybe someday
I'll be able to be back on aregular basis.

But thank you for inviting me today on a
regular basis, but thank you forinviting me today.
Yeah, darrell's been strugglingwith some health issues and has
been in recovery.
He's doing better, but we'reglad that you're back, darrell.
I know it's been kind of a longjourney, so it's great, as I
said, great to have you back andwe do pray for your complete

(02:03):
recovery as well, so.
I invite all of our listenersto pray for you, Darrell.

Thank you.

We're going to talk today about a series of
blogs, darrell, that you wrotesome weeks ago.
The title of the blogs wereGetting to the Root of
Antisemitism.
They're excellent.
Our listeners can find theseblogs at Darrow's blog site,
darrow Miller and Friends.
Just go ahead and put that intoyour search bar, darrow Miller

(02:31):
and Friends and it'll pull rightup and then you can search that
blog site for the Getting tothe Roots of Anti-Semitism.
It's a four-part blog series.
We're going to be focusingprimarily on the first in that
series.
The title of that blog is whatwe just mentioned Getting to the
Root of Antisemitism, dara.
I thought it was excellent andreally profound insights.

(02:54):
It's a really important topicright now, as we're recording
this episode.
It's the same week we're daysaway from Israel having launched
air raids on, dramatic airraids on Iran, and of course,
that comes in response to yearsand years of Iranian threats to

(03:19):
abolish, to annihilate Israel,to wipe them off the face of the
earth, and they're building upof their nuclear arsenal.
And so right away, you knowwe're in the headlines.
Yet are you know thisanti-Semitism, this hatred of
the Jews and this desire to seethem annihilated?
That's just one example.

(03:40):
Of course, daryl, you beginthis blog by talking about how
we're seeing a rise inanti-Semitism.
Talk a little bit about that.
What were you seeing inparticular?
You could be as broad or narrowwith that as you want.

Well, let me give you a little bit of my
background to help frame that.
My wife and I had the privilegeof studying in Israel right out
of college for five months atthe Institute for Holy Land
Studies and we fell in love withIsrael.
One of our best friends therewas a Jewish woman who lost her

(04:23):
entire family in the Nazi deathcamps.
She was the only survivor andthe other was the gardener at
the school, who was a dearfriend named Boutros Ghali.
He was Palestinian.
So we had a dear Jewish womanand a dear Palestinian friend.

(04:46):
So that's part of ourbackground.
I've spent a lot of time readingabout the rise of Hitler and
the Holocaust and how peoplewere slow to react and in how
Christians supported Hitler'srise to power in the 1930s in

(05:12):
Germany.
And a question I've had howcould that be?
And then I've read a number ofbooks on the Warsaw Ghetto,
where there were half a millionJews in the Warsaw Ghetto during
World War two and the Naziscame in in a six month I think

(05:32):
was a six month period of time,killed 450,000 of the half a
million Jews in six months andthere were 50,000 left, most of
them young people, and they saidwe're going to die?

(05:53):
Are we going to go as lambs tothe slaughter or are we going to
fight?
And the story of the WarsawGhetto, what the Nazis did there
and these young Jewish peoplestanding against the Third Reich

(06:14):
, is a remarkable story.
And it was that, the events ofthe Warsaw Ghetto, that birthed
the spirit that led to thefoundation of Israel.
So those are things I've beenstudying for years.
It's part of my background andyou know, when you talk to me

(06:36):
today, it's going to be comingfrom that background.

So, yeah, thanks for sharing that background.
You're you know your ownpersonal story and your interest
on this subject.
Uh, let's come back to you know, anti-semitism and, by the way,
for the for the sake of thisdiscussion, I know when you
begin a discussion on somethinglike anti-semitism or just jews
in general, it can becomeconfusing.

(07:02):
And I I just want to say kindof what we're for the sake of
our conversation today, when wespeak about Jews, we're talking
about people who are direct, youknow, trace a direct
descendancy or lineageethnically to Abraham, isaac and
Jacob or Israel.

Luke Allen (07:19):
Yeah.

Now again it's.
I understand, there's nuancesthere, you know you have.

Ethiopians who are.

Jews who are ethnically Ethiopian.
But I think, for the sake ofour discussion on anti-Semitism,
I think we can just kind offocus in on people that are
ethnically Jewish, whetherthey're Christian or not, but
they trace their blood lineageback to that group, that tribe,
if you will, the tribe ofAbraham Isaac and Jacob, that

(07:46):
group, that tribe, if you will,the tribe of Abraham Isaac and
Jacob.
So, darrell, you wrote abouthow alarmed you are at this rise
in anti-Semitism.
Talk a little bit about that.
What are you seeing?
What's alarming you as we lookright now at this current
situation that we're in?

We are seeing anti-Semitism in the United
States and globally thatparallels the anti-Semitism that
we saw in Germany in the leadup to World War II.
In the lead up to World War II,and if you study the history of

(08:28):
the Jews, virtually throughouthistory, there have been
programs against the Jews andanti-Semitism rising its evil
head in country after countrywhere the Jews have been
persecuted, where they've beendriven from their home country,

(08:54):
where they've been murdered.
And Nazi Germany was the highpoint.
I think Nazi Germany was thehigh point, I think, where
Hitler's goal was to eliminateall the Jews in the world and at

(09:14):
the time he succeeded ineliminating about half of the
Jews in the world in four years.
That is horrendous.
And today we look on thetelevision screens.
We see young Europeans, youngAmericans, blocking streets,

(09:36):
blocking bridges, standing infront of universities, saying
from the river to the sea.
I think most of them have noidea what they're saying.
They don't know what river,they don't know what sea, they
don't know what they're saying,but what they are saying is

(10:00):
there should be no Jews from theJordan River to the
Mediterranean Sea.
And the people that are fundingthis movement, the people that
are behind this movement, thatare organizing the movement.
They understand perfectly wellthat they want to get rid of all
the Jews in Israel.

(10:21):
And you look at universitiesaround the country, you look at
young people even youngChristians are saying from the
river to the sea and they havevery little understanding of
what they're saying, very littleunderstanding of history and of

(10:44):
the anti-Semitism that we seein the world today.
Let me simply say that the Jewsand Christians have more in
common, especially the Jews ofthe book and Christians of the
book have more in common thanthey do with the secular world

(11:09):
and they do with jihadists.

Yeah, I want to get to that, daryl for sure.
Just quoting from your blog.
You cite at the beginning of ita couple of headlines from
recent newspaper articles.
One says anti-Semitism in theUnited States is at an all-time
high.
As American Jews report quoteexplosions of hate.

(11:34):
A total of 10,000 anti-Semiticincidents were recorded in the
US since October 7th.
The attack in Israel from Gazathe highest number of incidents
in the history of theAnti-Defamation League's
recording of such things.

Luke Allen (11:50):
Yes, yeah, ironically, this, yeah, that
number is a lot higher now Inthe Anti-Defamation League that
was formed after World War II,so I believe this is the highest
we've seen in US history sinceWorld War II.

Those were from a year and a half ago.

Luke Allen (12:07):
those figures, Right , yeah, it's a lot higher now.
It hasn't slowed.
It hasn't slowed, if anything,don't you think?

it's continued to grow, right, I mean it's
growing.

It's a growing movement in the United States
and it's a growing movementglobally.

Dwight Vogt (12:22):
Yeah that's right, that's right.
Can we clarify tooanti-Semitism at this point in
time it seems to be the movementthat we see visibly on the
television screen withdemonstrations and marches is
against Israel, the state ofIsrael and its supposed colonial

(12:42):
posture towards Islam and theregion or the Palestinians.
But it's actually deeper thanthat.
Could you talk about that,daryl?
I mean, most people thinkanti-Semitism oh, you're talking
about Israel and it's aconflict with the Palestinians.

I'm talking about the nation of Israel, the
nation state yeah, it's morethan now the nation of israel is
the only jewish state in theworld, and yet that jewish state
has about 120 different ethnicgroups in it.
There are Arab Israelis.

(13:25):
20% of the population of Israelare Arabs and they are in the
government, they're in theKnesset, they're in the IDF.
Pardon In the IDF.
Yeah they're in the IDF, theyfight, they are Israeli citizens
.
Israel is not simply.

(13:45):
It's a Jewish state, on onehand, and it's not Jewish on
another, in that there areethnic groups from all over the
world, and so people look todayoh, the Jews, israel's only
Jewish people?
No, the Jews, israel's onlyJewish people, no, and we want

(14:13):
to get the Jews out of theirhomeland, from the river to the
sea, not realizing that what isIsrael?
Israel is more ethnicallydiverse, I think, than any
nation in the world except theUnited States.

Yeah, and I think, darrell, you're seeing at
least I'm seeing anti-Semitism.
I mean, again, as Dwight wassaying, some of it is, at least
verbally, directed at the nationand the policies of Israel, but
that doesn't explain why youhave people shooting Jewish
people in cold blood inWashington DC that have nothing

(14:50):
to do with the nation of Israelor the policies of Israel.
It seems like there's justagain deeper hatred of Jews, you
know.
Forget the nation state, youknow, for a second, because that
there's.
there is something deeper rightum yeah, you know, and I think
we're seeing.
I don't know, darryl, if youhave you seen this too?
I've noticed.

Oh, go ahead yeah if you want me to take off on
what you just said I'm happy.
Yeah, go ahead, yeah yeah, um,the Jews are God's chosen people
.
He picked them out of allnations to be his people.

(15:31):
And where were they when theywere his people?
They were the Hebrew people inEgypt.
They were the poorest of thepoor and they were enslaved.
They were enslaved for 430years.
They were enslaved.
They were enslaved for 430years.
They were slaves, and theyweren't just physically enslaved
, they had a slave mentality.

(15:55):
And God brought them out ofEgypt to build a nation, the
nation of Israel.
And it was one thing to bringthem out of Egypt, out of
physical slavery, but the moredifficult thing was to get the
slavery out of their mind.
They were mentally enslaved.

(16:16):
And so you find the books ofMoses, the Pentateuch.
This is God's dealing with aslave people to bring them out
of slavery and bring slavery outof their mind to make them a
free people.
So you have God choosing theleast of people, a slave people,

(16:39):
with the idea of making this anation that will bless the
nations, a nation that will nothave a slave mentality but a
free mentality.
And that's essentially what thefirst five books of the Bible

(17:00):
are about, and, as Christians,we own those are about, and, as
Christians, we own those.
So it's something that you knowwe are connected to the Jews at
that point and I think one ofthe key factors and this is what
you were hinting at the root ofanti-Semitism.

(17:24):
Before God spoke to Abraham, theworld was largely pagan.
There was not the concept of acreator God who is the creator
of the whole, the unifier of thediversity of the universe.

(17:48):
There were many small gods,family gods, tribal gods,
polytheism.
This was the culture ofvirtually every place in the
world and when God spoke toAbraham, he was living in an

(18:08):
animistic, polytheistic culture,and that's how he thought.
And God spoke out of theheavens and called Abraham to
leave Ur of the Chaldees, butnot just to leave a physical

(18:29):
place, but to leave a culturebehind and, as it were, birth a
new culture, a culture based onthe reality that there's one God
in the universe and notthousands of little gods, one

(18:50):
God who is the creator of all,the unifier of all, and that
this God is a moral God and hecreated a moral universe and he
gave to Moses the TenCommandments.
This is a moral code reflectingGod's moral nature.

Yeah, I mean just to reiterate what you're
saying, darrell.
If I could put it in my ownwords, you're right at the fall
back in Genesis, chapter 3, youknow, that's where idolatry was
introduced.
Right People in theirrebellious hearts, you know,
rejected the one true God, theCreator God, and worshipped

(19:39):
creation and all sorts of falsegods.
That's the pagan world thatyou're speaking about.
It's the fallen world.

They created these false gods Right.

Yes.
And then, you know, god, in hisredemptive plan of history,
begins to kind of say I'm goingto do something new.
And he calls, as you said,Abraham out of that pagan
world—he was one of them—out ofthat and said I'm going to

(20:09):
covenant with you, I'm going tocreate a nation out of you and
you are going to worship the onetrue God, as I always intended,
back at Genesis 1 and 2 in theGarden of Eden.
And so that's what I hear yousaying.
This is really what it means.
You know, this is the roots ofall of this right, because
there's a war, isn't there,between this fallen pagan

(20:33):
idolatrous world and the worshipof the one true and living God.
Right, that's right.

It's a war that begins in the heavenlies between
God and the angels and thedemonic that's at war against
God.
So it begins in the heavenliesand it moves from a spiritual
war in the heavenlies to earth,to earth.

(21:10):
And this war is being playedout today, as you said, scott,
between those who stand beforethe one true God, the creator of
the universe, the savior of theworld, and all those who reject
him and idolize nature andidolize human beings, idolize
science, idolize material things, and there's a conflict going

(21:34):
on there.

I just think that's so.
It's so fundamental and sobasic and I think it gets lost
in a lot of our discussionstoday.

It does, but I just want to.

I want to come back to it again, darrell.
You wrote in the blog.
You said why are the Jews sohated?
In short, they are hatedbecause of their ideas and
worldview.
Ancient paganism was firstsubverted by Abraham's family.
I just think that's really wellsaid.
You know, ancient paganism,this demonic, fallen world,

(22:08):
idolatrous paganism, was firstsubverted by Abraham and his
offspring because theyintroduced a new idea into this
world, a true idea that thereisn't.
There is one true God and he'sthe Lord over all and he's a
holy and a moral God that'srevealed himself through the Ten

(22:29):
Commandments you later wrotetoo.
You wrote this is from GeneEdward Vieth.
His thesis fascists hated theJews not merely because of their
race, but because of theirideas and their worldview.
Again, mainly we're speakingabout their ideas about the one
true God.
They sought to exterminate theJews.

(22:49):
They also sought to exterminatethe Jewish influence, the
Jewish idea.
That's what's really at theroot, darrell.
Go ahead and just expand onthat.

Well, and their first goal was to eliminate the
Jews and their second goal wasthen to eliminate Christians.
Why?
Because Christians representthe one true God, the moral God.
So they weren't going to startsimply with the Jews.
They were starting with theJews and wanted to finally get

(23:21):
rid of the Christians in theworld with the Jews and wanted
to finally get rid of theChristians in the world.
Adolf Hitler himself and Ithink I quote this in one of the
blogs he said the reason he wasfighting was to get rid of the
people who brought the moral Godof the desert to the world.

(23:41):
He brought the moral God.
They brought the moral God ofthe desert to the world and
ruined our ability to dowhatever we wanted without guilt
.

There you go, ruined our ability to live as we
want.
Apart from God.
That's the heart of the fallenworld Of us all, yeah.
That's right.
That's the rebellious heart.
It's the demonic rebelliousheart of the fallen world on the
lips of Adolf Hitler, rightthere, right.

Luke Allen (24:12):
That's right.
Yeah, this is kind of a sidequestion, but I've always been
curious of this and since you'vestudied this a lot more than me
, I thought I'd ask.
So Hitler, yeah, and Mein KampfI think it was the first time
he brought that up.
The God of the desert is is myultimate aim here.
Um, why did he start with theJews and not the Christians,

(24:34):
though?
I just, I just don't get that,because the Jews existed before
the Christians.

The Jews were the people of the book.
The Jews were the people thatbrought the concept of one
creator God, a moral God whocreates a moral universe, to the
world.
And, as you were saying aminute ago, scott began with
abraham as it.
I mean, it began with moses andthe decalogue, but in the

(25:02):
unfolding of this with thenations, it began with abraham
and it began with a person in afamily and he had to deal with
this in himself, with this inhimself, because he was an
animist yeah, his dad was a.

He made idols, literally carved them for a
living, as I understand.

Yeah, so you have this.
This is his culture, this isthe way he thinks.
And now he hears this voice outof the universe, this huge
voice calling him and saying youneed to leave this place.
And Abraham says well, whereare you going to take me?
I'll show you.

(25:46):
And this had to begin as a newbirth, as it were, in Abraham's
life, of recognizing there isthe one creator, god, and not
the local idols and deities thatI can make with my hands and
worship.
I am not in the control of theuniverse.

(26:08):
I am not.
I might make these littledeities, but God is in control
of the universe.

He is sovereign over all but God is in control
of the universe.

He is sovereign over all, and that had to be
birthed in Abraham's life beforehe would listen to the voice
and leave.

And it's interesting that God knew that,
just birthing that idea inAbraham and Abraham having
descendants, one of whom wouldbe Moses, and eventually he'd
give the.
Ten Commandments and all of theBible would be unveiled of who
God is through the Jews.
But he realized he would needto.
He was creating a culture andto create a culture.

(26:47):
He needed to create a place forthat Abraham's descendants to
live in unity together, and sohe needed a land, he needed a
nation.
And so he needed a land, heneeded a nation.
And it's interesting that itdidn't just say oh, abraham,
you're going to be the light ofthe world and you're going to be
salt and light for everybody.
No, you, you will yourdescendants, and they needed to
have a space, a place, a spot,because that's how you create a

(27:11):
culture that spot is in theMiddle East, which at the time
was the crossroads of the world.

If you wanted to go from Africa to Europe, you
went through the Middle East.
If you wanted to go from Europeto Asia, you'd go through the
Middle East.

It was the crossroads of the world, and it
would be a culture that wouldinfluence the world.

That's right.
That was the promise to AbrahamI will make you a great nation
and you will bless the nations,and it needed a land, a place,
and that was the land that Godgave them.

And culture is birthed in worldview.

And culture is birthed in worldview, or the way
you hear me say it all the timeculture is birthed in worship.
Culture is derived from theword cult, and cult is the word
for worship, so we createcultures like the gods that we

(28:15):
worship.
So so if you worship a tribaldeity, your culture is a tribal
culture.
If you worship a god that iscapricious, then you create a
culture that is corrupt.
If you worship the living God,who is just, then you create a

(28:42):
culture of justice.
So we make our own gods, exceptfor the God who made us, and
then we create cultures likethese idols that we make.
And Abraham was to break thatin himself.
He was to break it in leavinghis pagan, animistic culture of

(29:08):
Ur, of the Chaldees, and moveinto a land that God would show
him, to a land that God wouldshow him, and be the father of
the Jewish people who were madeto bless the nations.
And we could talk today how arethe Jews blessing the nations

(29:29):
today?
That would be a wholediscussion we could have.

So you're saying that anti-Semitism is growing in
the world and it's deep andit's rooted in history.
It's been here forever, throughthe pogroms before World War II
, and I even.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's ultimately rooted in the fact that the
Jews gave us God of the Bible.

God revealed himself to the world through the
Jewish people.

And.

I think it's.

And so we don't want God, so we're anti-Semites,
it's more than that, though,dwight.

It's not just God, it's the culture that is
formed from the worship of theliving God, and that affects
everything.
It affects marriage, right?
So we're no longer living with20 wives or just having sex
randomly.
Now We've got to do thingsdifferently than we would have
otherwise.

(30:26):
So it's God, the worship of theGod, and the culture that comes
from that, right.
I mean, that's what we'retalking about.

So it's the worldview.

It's the worldview.

It's the worldview, one God, and he, this
God, is a moral God and createda moral universe.
If you look at Romans 1, wherePaul describes how God is angry
with human beings because he'srevealed himself to them through

(31:00):
creation and they have rejectedhim.
And when they reject him, whatdo they do?
They create images like humanbeings, like man, and images
like creatures.
They become idolaters.
And then what happens?

(31:22):
You move from pagan ideology topagan sexuality and you see
what comes following this inRomans 1 is a whole description
of pagan sexuality and paganlicense.

(31:47):
It's a whole list of licenseswhere you just follow your own
instincts.
So go ahead.

Luke Allen (32:02):
Two, I totally agree with everything you're saying
here.
But two quick questions, if wecould, before we go too much
further in the conversation.
One could we simply just defineanti-Semitism?

And then question two is if it's a hatred of the
Jews, that's it.

That's simple.
It's a hatred of the Jews.
That's it.

It's simple.

And why?

do you hate the Jews Because they are
the—ultimately, there's allsorts of other things, books,
written about it, but why?
Because of the worldview of theJews and the moral universe
revealed in the Decalogue moraluniverse revealed in the
Decalogue.

In other words, they represent the worship of
the one true God.
That is intolerable in a fallenpagan world.

Luke Allen (32:44):
Then why have Christians persecuted Jews
throughout history as well?

Because they have been captured by their culture,
been captured by their culture.
The German Jews were capturedby their culture.
It was a sacred-secular divideand this is what's governing the
church today.
We can go into this.

(33:12):
This is one of the reasonswe're having this podcast is
because the church today isgoverned by a sacred-secular
divide and the church in Germanyhad this sacred-secular divide.
God, you know, that's myreligion.
My politics is over here.
It's not a holistic worldview,it's a divided worldview.

(33:36):
So, religiously, I'm aChristian, but as a citizen of
Germany, I'm following Hitler,and Hitler wanted to extinguish
the Jews, and we're doing thattoday in the church.
We are a church that's got ourheads in the sand.

(33:59):
We should be supporting theJews and standing against
anti-Semitism, but we're not.
I don't know if that gets toyour question, luke, but I want
to go back to where we were afew minutes ago, if that gets to
your question.

Luke Allen (34:22):
Yeah, let me think about that more.
You can get back to your lastpoint.

Okay.
The last point was God is amoral God.
He made a moral universe.
He gave us the Decalogue as astatement that humans could
understand it.
Based on his moral character,he made us to form families.
This is in Genesis 1.

(34:46):
Have children.
And those children, thosefamilies, were made to steward
creation.
That's Genesis 1, genesis 2.
We were made not to beindividuals but to form families
.
That doesn't mean we're notindividuals, but if God made us

(35:09):
never to form families, just tobe individuals, there wouldn't
be any more people on the earth.
If he'd made two men, therewouldn't be any more people on
the earth.
Or if he made two women, therewouldn't be any more people on
the earth.
He made us male and femalebecause that fully reflects his
character and his intention wasto form families that would

(35:30):
populate the earth, that wouldsteward the earth, they would
govern what god had made.
So that's why we're, that's whywe are here and we were made to
live within a moral frameworkbefore the face of God.

(35:53):
Dennis Prager wrote a profoundarticle that I think I refer to
in this series of blogs and ifnot, I've written a separate
blog about it, but the title ofthe article was something like
Jewish Sexuality is Deviant.
And I thought what?
What?

(36:13):
No, jewish sexuality isn'tdeviant, it's moral, it's made
for the framework of marriage.
Sex is sacred, it's a beautifulthing.
We were made to have sex andhe's calling it deviant.
So I read the article and whathe was saying is pagan sexuality

(36:38):
is normal.
Jewish sexuality was deviantfrom the normal and man, that
just blew my mind away.

But that gets the point of the.
You know, it's not.
It's the worship of the trueand living god and a culture
that comes from that, includinga culture of sexuality and
marriage and family formationand everything that goes
everything is related which ispretty much everything exactly
everything and if and if I couldcome back to, I want to quote

(37:13):
from Exodus 19.
I just think it's reallyimportant.
It's one of these key, kind ofpivot verses in the Bible.
It's where God appears to Moseson Mount Sinai, Starting in
verse 3,.
Moses went up to God and theLord called to him from the
mountain and said this is whatyou are to say to the

(37:34):
descendants of Jacob and whatyou are to tell the people of
Israel.
You yourselves have seen what Idid in Egypt, how I carried you
on eagles' wings and broughtyou to myself.
Now, verse 5, if you obey mefully and keep my covenant, then
out of all the nations, youwill be my treasured possession,
Although the whole earth ismine, you will be for me a

(37:59):
kingdom of priests and a holynation.
These are the words you were tospeak to the Israelites, and I
just bring that up because Ijust want to remind us all here
that God's redemptive plan wasto work through the descendants
of Israel, but it was for thewhole world.
As God says here, the wholeworld is mine and I'm going to

(38:22):
give you an assignment to showthe world, to show the watching
world, what it looks like toworship the one true God and how
good that culture, howflourishing and good that
culture is that comes from thatworship.
I think that's what it means tobe a kingdom of priests, right
To kind of reveal, to show thetruth to the watching world.

(38:46):
And again, I think this isimportant because it's not like
God chose the Jews and said Ilove you, you're my treasured
possession and I hate the restof the world.
No, it was.
This is my redemptive plan.
I'm going to choose you, I'mgoing to create a culture
through you and it's for thegood of the whole world.

(39:07):
And that applies equally to thechurch.
Right, we are saved, we'reGod's people, not for ourselves
or our own blessings or benefit,but for the good of the whole
world, to create nations thatshow what it looks like to
worship the true and living God,families and nations.

(39:27):
So I just want to underscorethat as well.

Well, in both cases, scott the Jews and the
Christians the focus is outwards.
Exactly, god blessed the Jewsbecause he wanted them to be a
blessing to the nations.
They're not the reservoirs ofblessing, they are the channels

(39:53):
of blessing, and when they weregood and wise, they understood
that.
And when they turned away fromGod, they focused on self.
Why did Christ raise up thechurch?
Not for itself.
He raised up the church for thenations, very similar to the
reason he rose up the jews.

(40:15):
He rose up, he birthed thechurch to do moment that, what I
said a moment ago.
The jews put the genie of sexinto a bottle, the bottle of

(40:39):
marriage.
That sex is a good thing, it'sa wonderful thing, but it's made
God design sex for a covenantedcouple, for marriage.
And Prager goes on to say it isthis fact that allowed for the

(41:03):
development of Westerncivilization, western
civilization putting the genieof sexuality back into its
proper place.
And it was a moral code and thedignity of women, men and women

(41:24):
coming together, formingfamilies, this whole biblical
concept is what created Westerncivilization.

Let's dwell on that because I think it's a good
illustration too, darrell.
I mean so yeah, god says Icreated sex.
I created marriage for apurpose right To bless the
nations, to raise up children,to have children protected and
nurtured and raised so that theythemselves would go and bless
the nations and develop theworld, steward the world, and

(41:52):
then do the same reproduce andcontinue to do that process.
It's good.
God's intentions are alwaysgood.
The worship of the true andliving God leads to good
outcomes, positive flourishing.
I mean, this is God's heart.
And this sexual ethic and thismarriage ethic, it's good for
women, right?

(42:13):
They're no longer just preyedupon by any man that happens to
come along because they're in amarriage.
They're protected.
It's good for the childrenbecause they're raised and
protected by the mother andfather that gave them birth and
educated and raised.
So it was civilizationalcreating, as you say, darrell,
but in a fallen world, in aworld that hates God, this isn't

(42:36):
considered to be good news.
This is bad news because, yeah,it impinges upon my autonomy,
my freedom.

I don't like it my license.
Freedom is different thanlicense.

It impinges upon my license to do whatever I
feel like doing and this getsback to anti-Semitism or
anti-Christian views right,because we should be both
representing the worship of thetrue and living God and creating
that kind of culture thatactually isn't going to be seen
as good news in a deeply fallenworld.

(43:14):
That's right.
And so I do think there's thisrise of anti-Semitism in the
United States.
I think Darrow can be tied orlinked pretty strongly to the
rise of sexual libertinism,lgbtq and the strong hatred of
the.
Christian sexual ethic.
The strong hatred in thatcommunity, you know, you see it

(43:35):
in places like Jack Phillips,we're going to come after you
and we're going to make you youknow we're going to make force
you to deny your Christiansexual ethic and affirm ours.
There's a hatred behind that.

It's a denial of a moral universe.
It's a denial of an objectivereality.
There's no objective reality.
You can be whatever you wantyourself to be and you could be
born quote identified as a maleand want to be a female and you

(44:11):
are a female and the wholeculture is being sucked into
that pagan concept.
We need to call it paganbetween worshiping the one and
only true God, who is moral andcreates a moral framework for us

(44:34):
to live in, and the pagan godsthat are created because you
don't want to worship the livingGod that allow you to have
license to live however you want, without responsibility.

I just think it is.
What I loved about your article, Darrell, is you brought me
back to the simplicity of this.
The hatred, the anti-Semitismis rooted in the fact that, in a
fallen world, people hate Godand they don't want to live
under God.
They want to be gods themselves.

And it's kind of as simple as that.

It's not about you know.
I think earlier on, when we hada podcast on this, I was going
into how a lot of theanti-Semitism in the United
States right now is rooted inneo-Marxism.
And it's true, right, you know,they see Israel, the nation of
Israel as colonizers and theysee the Palestinians as innocent

(45:36):
victims.
There is that, but it's not thedeep root that we're getting at
here it's not the deep rootRight and that's why I loved
your article, because it broughtus back to this simple, deep
root and it cuts to.
It cuts through a lot of thisdiscussion that's happening
right now in the church in theUnited States.
I think about Jews and covenant, and are the Jews still

(45:57):
relevant and how should we viewthe Jews?
And those are.
They can be important questions.
I'm not saying hey, don't askthose questions.

But they're not the deep questions.

It's ignoring this deeper thing that's going
on.
The Jews represent the worshipof the true and living God.
Whether they do or not, that'swhat they.
Again, there's secular Jews whodon't worship the true and
living God, but just beingJewish in this fallen world

(46:28):
associates you with the true andliving God, and that makes you
a target for hatred.

That's right.
It associates you with theliving God, with a biblical
worldview, with the concept of amoral universe.
If you do not want thosethings— and a fallen world does
not.
Yeah, you have to get rid ofGod and you have to get rid of
the Jews, but it's not just the.
Jews, because eventually it'llbe to get rid of Christians.

And this is what links us.
You could talk a lot about whatare the connections and
differences and similaritiesbetween Jews and Christians, but
in a simple way we could say,one simple, clear linkage is we
are both people of the book.
We are both people that worshipthe true and living God, and
that's going to target us bothfor hatred, I think.

(47:13):
You know, usually it doeshappen.
Like you say, darrell.
I mean Niemöller, right in NaziGermany, the Christian, the
great Christian, frankly.
But you know, he said they camefirst for the Jews and then
they came for the Christians andI didn't do my best to speak up
for the Jews.
And now they're coming for me,right, and there's no one to
speak up.

And this is where the church today should be
speaking up againstanti-Semitism and for Jewish
people.
We should be the advocates ofJewish people.
We should be the defenders ofJewish people A lot of that
today, darrell.

a lot of Christians are excited about
Israel now being back in itshomeland.
Following World War II, theZionism, the establishment of
the nation state of Israel as asign of the end time.
So it's kind of driven by thatend times eschatology.
But you're saying somethingthat's even again more
fundamental.
You're not talking ineschatological terms here.

(48:14):
Go ahead.

No, I'm not.
I'm talking in worldview terms,and people who couch it in
eschatological terms are veryoften thinking from a
sacred-secular framework.
And this is oh gee, the jewsare back in israel.
Wow, this is the moment.

(48:36):
Well, jesus says we don't knowthe day or the hour.
He didn't know the day or thehour, but we are to be about
this disciple nations, or to putit in another way, as
christians.
The church exists not to blessitself, but the church exists to
be a blessing to the nation andto the community in which it is

(49:01):
.
It's an outward focus andthat's part of what we're
dealing with.
When we're, you know we're,we're okay, we're going to
support the jews because theseare the end times.

That's not going deep enough, and what I hear you
saying, daryl's just tosummarize for myself is that
that the root is this idea of amoral, one god who is personal
and created the world andeverything yeah, that's the
bottom line the Jews are at theroot of that because it was

(49:34):
revealed to them and threw themto the world exactly.
So the idea is, if even thesecular Jew, who identifies as a
Jew, reminds us of that fact,of that fact.

Of that fact, of that reality.

So all the Jews in the world could become
secularists and we'd still beanti-Semites because of that.
That's right.

It's a guilty by association.

Luke Allen (50:06):
That made so much sense when you guys explained
that a few minutes ago, the Jews, even if they don't like God,
if they've rejected God, if theyhate God and if they've totally
turned away from him, they'restill wearing the jersey that
says God on it.

Exactly Because that goes back 4,000 years.

Luke Allen (50:22):
That goes back a long time and the miracle is
that they're still here andthey're still wearing.

You know, and that jersey is still here, yeah, here
, and they're still wearing that.
You know, and that jersey isstill here, yeah, I mean, that's
the miracle.

I heard this on a podcast yesterday it's four
secular jews talking and theysaid, yeah, but the miracle is
that we still exist.

Of all those tribes back two, four thousand years
ago, we still exist and a lothave just died out from natural
causes.

But but the Jews have been hated historically and
whole nations have tried towipe them out, and they're still
here, which is a miracle how?

Luke Allen (50:58):
can this be it's a miracle.

And it shows that God's hand.
He chose them for a reason andthey're still here for a reason,
and I love what you just said.
As you were saying, I wasthinking what did Hitler have
the Jews wear during the Nazireign?

(51:21):
Star of David, and that's thephysical symbol of the Jewish
people and that Star of Davidhas never been destroyed.

Yes, and I'm thinking of people that I know,
young Christians, a lot of youngChristians that I've heard that
there's kind of a softanti-Semitism that I'm hearing
from them right now.
Things like you know, the Jewsdon't really matter anymore.
That's the old covenant.
We're in the new covenant.
You know they're just pagans.
We treat them the same as anyother pagan.

When you have that kind of thought or
conversation, it takes on adifferent light when we're
talking the way we are in thispodcast though, well, and do you
look at pagans as sinnerscondemned to hell, or do you see
them as the image of God, andChrist died for them, and God

(52:20):
wants to reach them?

Yes, and that needs to be absolutely our heart
.
But when Hitler went after theJews and rounded them up and put
them on trains and brought themto concentration camps like
Auschwitz, he didn't carewhether they were pagan Jews who
didn't believe or not.

They were just Jews.
No, they were Jews Again.
The deeper thing isn't you know?

is this Jew, a believer or not?
How serious are they abouttheir faith?
The deeper thing is, theyrepresent the worship of the
true and living God.
Whether they acknowledge thator not, that's what they do.

That's right, and because of that they need to be
protected.

You know we need to protect and be concerned
about them.
We need to stand with.

You know we need to protect and be concerned
about them.
We need to stand with thembecause we worship the same god
and if the church if the churchin germany had followed
bonhoeffer and the othercourageous pastors, uh hitler,
he would have been done in the30s.
But they sided with Hitlerbecause of the sacred-secular

(53:28):
divide, and that's the otherthing for Christians today.
Are you functioning from abiblical worldview or a
sacred-secular worldview?
You need to answer thatquestion.

Luke Allen (53:43):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up a second ago,
dad about the move in a lot ofChristian circles to kind of
dismiss Jews as irrelevant nowin the New Covenant.
Supercessionism, I believe, iswhat that's called in
theological camps, orreplacement theology other
people call it.
We've talked about this plentyas a team and I think Romans 11

(54:03):
portrays this posture of how weshould treat the Jews, even the
unbelieving Jews today, in sucha measured and humble way, and I
just think it's unfair to wrapup this conversation without
kind of stating that.
And it's that classic, we'veall heard it, the analogy of the
olive tree.
Right, god's the olive tree,he's the root, he's the trunk,

(54:24):
and then the branches are theJews and then, because of the
hardening of their hearts, manyof the Jews, the branches have
been cut off and fallen to theground and you, coming from a
wild olive tree, have beengrafted in among the branches.
But what Paul tries to do veryinsistently throughout Romans 9
through chapter 11, is insistthat don't let this lead you to

(54:47):
pride, don't let this don'tleave yourself thinking you're
better than them here, becauseGod can cut you off as well and
he can graft those branches thatfell off right back in.
He has a heart for them.
Still, and I just thinkremembering that posture and
it's repeated in Romans 11,verse 18, romans 11 verse 21,.
Romans 11, verse 23, is becareful, don't let this lead you

(55:10):
to pride Because, again, likewe've talked about today, we
have so much in common with them.
We have this shared root, youknow, and even though they've
been cut off, they still camefrom the same tree, and then
some other branches are also inthe tree today because of their
belief in Jesus.
So I think just knowing thathaving that posture in this
conversation is really importantis it's so easy to think, well,

(55:34):
we're better than them becausewe're, you know, the new Israel
of the second covenant.
Like, don't, don't go there,that's just not necessary, and
be careful what that leads tobecause it can lead to this kind
of soft dismissal Soft antiSemitism, really Anti-Semitism.

This is why the issue is on a worldview level,
not a theological level.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's not saying anythingbad about theology.
It's saying you haven't gonedeep enough.

I do think there's a part of it too, luke,
is it's rooted in.
You know, there's ways ofthinking theologically that I
think are harmful, and one is tokind of draw these firm lines.
You know, god acted in this wayat this time and then there's a
firm line Now he's acting in anentirely different way.
And I think when you draw thosekind of thick firm lines

(56:26):
between things, you don't seethe continuity.
And there's such continuity inGod's redemptive story, you know
, all the way through.
That's right and you need tolook at those areas of
continuity, you know.
One of them is what we'retalking about.
Yes, in the old covenant it waswith Jews and in the new
covenant, through Christ's blood, it's with the church, jew and

(56:48):
Gentile.
But the continuity is that it'sall about the worship of the
true and living God andobedience to him and creating a
culture as a kingdom of priests.
Right, the kingdom of priestsidea is applied to the ethnic
you know ethnic Jews in the OldTestament and Peter in his

(57:10):
epistles applies it to thechurch in the New.
We're a kingdom of priests, aholy nation.
Same thing.
We're to create that culturerooted in the worship of a
living God.
That's continuity.
I mean God had this all workedout from the beginning.
You know he knew the differentphases of this plan, or it's
unfolding, how it was going tounfold, with Christ at the
center of it.
But again, I think you have adifferent view of things and of

(57:35):
the Jews when you see thecontinuity, as opposed to these
thick walls that say, oh,they're not relevant because
that was just an Old Testament,that was a previous time or
whatever it is.

Let me add one other thing to what you just
said, scott.
It's not simply a religiousculture, it's a holistic culture
.
And you think of luther.
He wanted to reform the church.
Calvin wanted to reform all ofsociety.

(58:11):
When the pilgrims came acrossthe atlantic ocean, they wanted
to separate themselves from thepersecution of the Church of
England and be able to establisha church in the New World.
When the Puritans came across,it wasn't just to leave England,

(58:39):
it was to establish an entireenterprise.
They wanted to establish aculture that shaped a nation, a
way of living, a way of seeingthe world, a way of living in
their marriages and with theirchildren, a way that affected
education.

(58:59):
Politics and economics ExactlyRooted in the worship of the
living God.

Yeah, that's what they wanted.

Rooted in the worship and both groups were
Christians, but one was focusingon simply the purity of the
church and the other wasfocusing on a civilizational
concept.
So that's a whole other podcast.

Yeah, it is another , but it's a good one, which
goes back to God's requirementsfor the Jews.
There was not only asacrificial system, but there
was a call to obedience and thesacrificial system said to the
Jew it's God who saves me, it'snot me that saves myself, but I
do obey, I follow, yeah I, Ilive as god I live as god

(59:50):
designed me to live, and I thinkwith, with the reformation the
side you're talking about withluther there was a sense of no,
it's just the sacrifice.
There, there's nothing to dowith living and how you live,
it's just the sacrifice.
There, there's nothing to dowith living and how you live,
it's just the sacrifice, for bygrace are you saved, through
faith, not of yourselves.
The gift of god.
And we've just lost, you know,but the puritans didn't lose
that the pilgrims might haveyeah, I think you're.

Scott D. Allen (01:00:12):
You're right to bring that up, dwayne.
We, hey, I'm a proud protestantand lutheran in the sense that
I believe that we're savedexclusively through faith and
not by good works.
Right, it's not our good worksthat save us, that's the old
covenant.
It doesn't work because we're,you know, god is utterly holy
and even our good works are, youknow, filthy rags, so you're

(01:00:34):
never going to be able to havethat restored relationship with
God through good works.
You're saved through faith, butthe whole point of that is to do
good works, you know, to livein a way that pleases him and
that honors him in every area.

Dwight Vogt (01:00:48):
And yeah, I was just struck by that this morning
.
The Jews understood that andthe Jews yeah, they did.

I want to go back again, yeah, and.

Luke Allen (01:00:56):
I mean with that it's good to keep in mind when
we're talking about worldviews,and the uniting worldview that
we have with the Jews here iswe're not moral relativists here
Is these ideas, even if it'skind of works based, they're
still going to lead to ideaconsequences and the Jewish
ideas that are based in the OldTestament and the moral law that
God given to them and us aregoing to lead to good

(01:01:16):
consequences to them and us aregoing to lead to good
consequences.
And if you're doing that from ayou know, out of the wrong
reasons because of you knowworkspace kind of you know,
wherever you're coming from,it's still going to lead to good
consequences because of God'snatural law.
So when we're comparing Judaismto other worldviews, it's very

(01:01:38):
different compared to otherworldviews out there.

As we wrap this up today, darrell, I'd just like
you to share with us any finalthoughts.
I just think.
Again, I want to direct peopleto Darrow Miller and friends at
the blog site, and specificallyto this blog Getting to the Root
of Antisemitism.
I think, darrow, it's a reallyimportant contribution to all of
the discussion that's happeningright now and I just want our

(01:02:02):
listeners to take advantage ofthat.

Darrow Miller (01:02:04):
But final thoughts from you, darrow, as we
wrap up today Well, I think weneed to take the times in which
we live seriously.
And the times in which we live,they are not just post-Christian
, they're post-modern, and weare on a track that's rejected

(01:02:28):
the Bible, it's rejected reasonand it's rejected reality.
And if Christians don'tunderstand the times in which we
live, we're just going to sortof fumble along or we'll stick
our heads in the sand.
The world is waiting for us, asChristians, to stand up and

(01:02:56):
function, not from a dualisticworldview where we've separated
the sacred and the secular, buta comprehensive worldview in
which we take the reality ofthere being one God who unifies
the whole, and we arerepresenting that God and the

(01:03:19):
unity of the whole, and thatshould set our vision and part
of the unity of the whole.
Right now, in light of thisgreat anti-Semitism in our
country and sweeping the world,we need to join hands with the

(01:03:39):
ones who God chose to revealhimself to the world.
We need to join hands with theJewish people and stand with
them in this hour of theirpersecution.

Darrell, thanks for your time today and for your
writing your thoughts on this.

Darrow Miller (01:04:03):
It's really important.

Dwight and Luke, thank you for your great
contribution as well to thisconversation and again, to all
of our listeners, thank you fortuning into another episode of.
Ideas have Consequences.
This is the podcast of theDisciple Nations Alliance.

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