January 5, 2023 • 27 mins
In this episode of IEA's HOTLINE Podcast, we discuss Idaho's decades of chronically underfunding Idaho public schools and cascading impacts it has on students, learning and public school educators. The panel discusses the Idaho Legislature's continued failure in meeting its constitutional mandate to provide an equitable public education to all Idaho students, how that failure creates uneven learning outcomes for students and how bonds and levies at the local level have taken on an outsized importance for local school districts.
Joining the conversation for this episode are:
- IEA member and Idaho Sen. Janie Ward-Engelking, who is a member of the Senate Education Committee and member of the powerful budget-writing Joint Finance and Appropriations Committee
- IEA President Layne McInelly
- IEA Executive Director Paul Stark
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike Journee (00:12):
Welcome to Idaho education Association's hotline
podcast, a weekly discussionabout what's happening at the
Idaho legislature around publiceducation, and the policy
priorities of ies members, IEAmembers or public school
educators from all over thestate. They're Idaho's most
important education experts andthey use their influence to
fight for free quality andequitable public education for
(00:33):
every student in the state. I'mMike journee, communications
director at Ida and I'll be yourhost for this episode of
hotline. Today, we discussIdaho's decades of chronic
underfunding of public schoolsand the cascading impacts it has
on students learning, and publicschool educators. joining me for
today's conversation are IEA,member of Idaho Senator Janie
(00:56):
Ward-Engelking, who is a memberof the Senate Education
Committee, and a member of thepowerful budget writing Joint
Finance and appropriationscommittee. IEA President Elaine
McAnally and IEA executivedirector Paul Stark. So thank
you all for joining me for thisnext episode of the hotline
(01:17):
podcast. And today we're goingto be talking about education
funding. And we have the we havea an esteemed group of folks
here education experts who paywho do a lot at the Idaho
legislature. And thank you,Senator ordering looking for
joining us today. And weappreciate your time. And I
(01:37):
wanted to kind of start this offby by talking a little bit about
it seems like going into thissession, the dynamics around
education and education funding,in particular, are different
than in previous years, thereseems to be a lot of jockeying
for position on some issues thatwe have might not have seen
previously. And I'd be curiousto know if you feel the same
(02:00):
way, and what do you think'sbehind it,
Janie Ward-Engleking (02:02):
I think there is a little bit different
feel going into this session,we've spent spending a lot of
time talking about education,traditional school facilities.
And so that's had been oneverybody's radar after the
study that was done last yearthat showed that 70% of our
(02:23):
schools are, are not in goodcondition. They're fair or poor.
And we have a tremendous numberof buildings that are aging out.
So I think that's on everybody'sradar, we also have a surplus.
And we know that we havetremendous needs and education,
we've dug a pretty deep hole forourselves. That's right over the
(02:44):
years. And so we've got someopportunities to do some good
things. And I'm hoping we canget everybody on board.
Mike Journee (02:51):
That's great. And I wonder, do you feel like we
have a little different dynamicwith the special session that
came in in September, where theyyou guys earmarked $330 million
for K through 12 educationwithout setting any policy
around that. And so it'sinteresting to kind of see the
dynamics around that too. Isthat is that kind of?
Janie Ward-Engleking (03:10):
Yeah, there's gonna be a battle
probably and J fac on how thatmoney is going to be allocated.
There's a lot of different ideasout there. We certainly talk to
the governor about some of histhoughts, and, and we all have
areas that we want to address.
But I'm hoping that we'll lookat health care insurance, we
know that we underfunded thatlast year by about 80 to 100
(03:33):
million. We also know thatclassified staff, we have got to
increase the funding that wesend out from the state because
we're not getting the job done.
And to be real Frank, we are notkeeping pace with our neighbors
when it comes to educationfunding for teachers. So we're
(03:55):
we're we've got areas that needto be addressed. And hopefully
with those funds, we can look atthose areas. And then I'm hoping
that we you know we have asurplus, and some of it's one
time but some of it isn't andthat needs to also be looked
Mike Journee (04:11):
at right and so and that that comes back to a
little bit of the setup to thislast year. We had a really
strong legislative session 11%increase in K through 12.
Funding recommended by thegovernor and approved by the
legislature, then the specialsession with another record
amount set aside. Going intothis we have a 1.5 billion
(04:33):
despite the the measures takenduring the special session we're
going in with another 1.5billion in surplus funny having
said that, I was looking at theeducation news website this
morning and we read off theheadlines that are there. Le A's
dish out nearly 100 million tofill gap and state funding for
classified staff. Idaho FallsSchool Board scrambles to
(04:54):
address overcrowding afterfailed bond. This year,
taxpayers will shell out Therecord $596.1 million for
education bonds and levies, andrural, the rural Teacher
Incentive Program receives 794applications. And thank you,
Senator for your sponsorship ofthat legislation last year was
(05:16):
a, it was an important thing andbut that that number shows the
demand for that program.
Janie Ward-Engleking (05:23):
Yeah, we only had 500 slots. So we need
to look at probably increasingthat. But But you're right,
we've underfunded education atthe state level for years. And
we've asked communities to pickup that the slack there. And,
frankly, right now, with risingproperty taxes, it's not
(05:44):
possible for school districts topass those bonds. And we're
seeing an increasing number ofschool districts go to a four
day week. And it's not becauseit's good for kids, it's because
it's what they can afford. Sowe've we know, we have issues,
and we need to take care ofeducation funding. on a state
(06:05):
level, it's constitutionallymandated, we need to do a better
job because we're asking our,our local school districts to
pick up the slack and ourpatrons in those communities and
where they want to do it becausethey care deeply about
education. And we know thatbecause reclaim Idaho was able
to get an initiative on theballot to raise funding for
(06:28):
education, they just can't do iton their property tax anymore.
So we can do better, and we needto do better, we owe it to our
children. And we owe it frankly,to the state of Idaho, because
our businesses are strugglingthey need they need more people
in the workforce. And the onlyway that happens is if we can
convince our children to stay inIdaho, and if we take care of
(06:52):
the education needs, right.
Mike Journee (06:54):
So Layne, we we Idaho Education members, we're
very thankful to the legislaturefor the recent increases. But we
all know and the Senator isalluding to this, too, we all
know that, that those increasesare going to be there. In the
current economic, currenteconomic conditions, with
(07:16):
inflation, and the need that'sthere, it's really not gonna not
gonna help things in asignificant way, and we need to
keep that momentum going.
Layne McInelly (07:25):
We really do.
Because the opportunity that wehave right now with the surplus
is going to take us from being51st in the state for per pupil
51st in the nation, for perpupil spending to maybe 47th. So
we really need to look at what'sgoing to be best for the
students in Idaho. And one ofthose things would be lowering
our class sizes. as a classroomteacher, when I had 32 students
(07:47):
in my classroom, it was reallydifficult to be able to get to
every single one of my studentsneeds. But when I had smaller
class size of 20, for one year,I definitely felt the impact of
being able to personalizelessons and meet the needs of
the individual students. And sobeing able to have those smaller
class sizes is going to beincredibly beneficial. Not only
(08:07):
that, but we can also providemore social emotional health for
our students, we can have morecounselors and nurses and
psychologists in our schools, sothat as a teacher, I can be in
the classroom teaching. And whenI identify an issue or a student
with trauma, there's aprofessional in the building
that I can refer that studentto, so I can continue to focus
(08:28):
on teaching. And then thatstudent can go and get the
professional help that theyneed, and then come back to my
classroom and be ready to learn.
It's incredible, incrediblydifficult to teach a student
through trauma until that traumahas been addressed. And so to
have those professionals in theschools will help the students
succeed, which in then then inturn will help this the educator
(08:51):
succeed in their job.
Paul Stark (08:53):
You know, if I can jump in here real quick to you
know, we've had I've heard, I'veheard from yours. We all have
now about how outcomes studentoutcomes is the end game, right?
We want to increase studentoutcomes. And we've heard about
that through all kinds of avariety of accountability
measures and, and differentschemes of this and that
throughout the years. But itisn't the ultimate unfunded
mandate, Senator that like,we're demanding outcomes, but
(09:16):
then we're strangling you withthe resources, you need to get
those outcomes going off of whatElaine was just saying, you
know, a class size of 36. Itwill affect outcomes. And if
you're forcing us into that, butyet demanding this it is it is
like the ultimate example of anunfunded mandate and unfunded
expectations by the legislature,isn't it?
Janie Ward-Engleking (09:38):
Well, and I think you're you know, we also
have to take into account thatwe've just come out of a
pandemic and and we've seentremendous learning loss for our
children. And some of that's dueto the fact that they weren't in
the classroom, but some of it isthat they were socially isolated
and they were dealing with a lotof things Since SOTA expect him
(10:01):
to walk right back in theclassroom and take off, isn't
realistic. So, yes, I believethat we've set the stage for
only funding things if we seethe outcomes we want. And yet,
by not funding, we havedetermined that outcome is not
going to be as successful or asgood as we want it to by
(10:25):
underfunding schools, by being51st in the nation by not paying
our teachers as well as oursurrounding states, we're losing
highly skilled teachers to otherstates. So yeah, we've set
things in motion that reallyimpact that outcome of our
students. And, and we need totake that into account when
(10:45):
we're looking at the needs ofour kids. And we just have to do
better.
Layne McInelly (10:50):
One of those ways we can do better, like you
said, is through having a highlyskilled, certified educator in
every classroom across thestate, making sure that every
student has the same opportunityto learn by having that educator
who's specifically trained, andhow to teach in understanding
the pedagogy of, of learning ofstudents is incredibly
(11:11):
important. And one way thatwe're going to do that is by
paying our educators orprofessional wage, and making
sure that we retain thoseeducators that have that
knowledge instead of continuallycontinuing to lose them to the
state surrounding us.
Janie Ward-Engleking (11:25):
And our, you know, our children should
not be faced with the theirquality of their education,
depending on the zip code theylive in, whether they're able to
pass a bond or Levy, or whetherthey're able to attract highly
skilled educators. We knowthat's the most important aspect
(11:45):
of a child's education, it's tohave that contact with a highly
skilled educator. And yet, wehaven't made sure that we have
those people in every singleclassroom.
Mike Journee (11:56):
Well, in fact, we're we're in the midst of what
can only be considered aeducator vacancy crisis, right?
I mean, and at all levels, notjust certified, but also
education support professionals.
I mean, we have overfilling,state coffers, and we have that
ongoing job vacancy crisis foreducators, we have a student
mental health and well beingcrisis, which you guys have
already touched on. And we havea huge need for investment in
facilities. I mean, these arethings that that are fundamental
(12:18):
to classroom outcomes, that likePaul was talking about, and yet,
that $1.5 billion budget sittingthere are surplus sitting there
that we that could could coulddo some really good with that
situation.
Janie Ward-Engleking (12:34):
And one of the problems is we don't have
enough educators in thelegislature serving in the
legislature. So theunderstanding isn't there. And
so it's up to us, as educatorsto make sure that we work with
them and, and help themunderstand what's really
important for child's education.
And so it's really our job to dothat. But it would be helpful if
(12:58):
we had a few more educators inthe legislature.
Mike Journee (13:07):
And this isn't just the he said she said kind
of debate policy, and this issomething that that has been
talked about in the courts. Andthere's actually a an old
Supreme Court case from 2005.
That talked about the the theinadequate funding for school
facilities, and here we arehaving the same conversation
now. Talk to you, you're theyou're the attorney, and you're
(13:27):
gonna talk a little bit aboutabout that about the the
constitutional mandate,
Paul Stark (13:31):
a recovering attorney, let me say that. But
yeah, there is thatconstitutional mandate. That's
it's very clear, it's veryobvious. And yet those there are
some in our legislature whoprofess to be constitutionalist
who wish to choose to ignorethat portion of it. But yeah, we
have an absolute mandate to dothis. And I think the the
(13:52):
addiction to local leviesdemonstrates just how much the
legislature has shirk their dutyin that respect. I mean,
basically, what they've done isthey've taken their
constitutional duty, rememberthe lead, the Constitution says
it's the legislature that shalldo this. They've taken their own
constitution, all duty, andthey've kicked it back to these
good superintendents that haveto go hat in hand every few
(14:15):
years to their community beggingfor the resources that
constitutionally the legislaturesupposed to allocate. And that's
that's just a real shame. It's,it's it's unconstitutional. And
if we are true to theConstitution, we will see we
will see legislature stand up tothat duty.
Mike Journee (14:31):
Yeah, let's let's talk a little bit more about
that. You know, we talked aboutI talked about the headline
about taxpayers will shell out arecord 596 point 1 million for
education bonds and levies inthe coming year. Those were
bonds and levies approved in thecalendar year 2022. What that
headline doesn't say is thatthere was over a billion dollars
(14:51):
worth of bonds and levies putbefore voters so that means
nearly half of the needs thatour superstar school boards and
superintendents and and schooldistricts around the state asked
for were rejected by voters. Andthat in and of itself creates
the inequity we've been talkingabout. Isn't that right,
Senator?
Janie Ward-Engleking (15:11):
Yes, it does. And I, you know, I find it
interesting we have a lot oflegislators that are, you know,
they preach accountability toeducators. And yet their own
accountability is sometimeslacks when it comes to upholding
their constitutional mandate,which is to fund schools. And
we, you know, we know right nowthat with the record growth
(15:34):
we're seeing in Idaho, and with,you know, the new infusion of
students that we've got to buildmore schools, and it we just
can't do it with property taxes,and especially with the two
thirds mandate that we have toget voter approval by two
thirds. And that's a very highstandard. It's a
Mike Journee (15:56):
very high standard. And and it's not, and
it's one of the reasons why Ibelieve that Idaho Falls vote,
the $250 million bond, I believethey they received upwards of
60%. I can't remember four or58%, I believe four, four, so a
clear majority approve that.
Yeah, it didn't meet that thattwo thirds standard that the
Constitution requires,
Janie Ward-Engleking (16:17):
right. And that's, that's higher than most
of their surrounding states, forsure. In fact, I think it's one
of the most restrictive in thein the United States. And so
it's a very high threshold. Andso that's something we ought to
also look at maybe 60% is morereasonable, because we really
(16:38):
have to make sure that we ourchildren have adequate places to
go to school and, and highlyskilled teachers. It's it's an
imperative.
Mike Journee (16:48):
And a lot of these Bom measures were or were in
fast growing districts, right,where there's a huge need. Idaho
Falls is a good example of that.
They're overcrowded. West aid isanother great example of a
school district that needs morefacilities. But also some of
these smaller districts wereasking for very fundamental
things like bus direct buses,and and pay for education
support professionals and thosekinds of things. That, that you
(17:10):
just can't, that that that arefundamental to the running of a
school. Right, Lane.
Layne McInelly (17:17):
Absolutely. And it also highlights the inequity,
like you and Senator said,between the different school
districts you can be in oneschool district that doesn't
provide some of the sameopportunities that a school
district 12 miles away does likehaving a science lab or having a
shop class or having healthclass that is taught in a health
(17:38):
lab, there are opportunitiesthat some students are afforded.
And other students aren'tbecause the school districts are
able to pass levies and bonds.
And it's really unfortunate,because like you said, our
constitution does mandate a fairand equitable education for all
students in Idaho. And that'snot what's being provided right
now.
Paul Stark (17:56):
And let's see, if I can jump in, let's not forget
that this has a disproportionateeffect on property tax owners,
this constitutional mandatethat, arguably, our legislature
as a whole senator, with allrespect to you, of course, the
legislature as a whole has hasneglected has now fought fallen
on the shoulders of propertyowners within and if you're, if
(18:17):
you're a retired individualunlimited income, this is a
greater and greater burdenthat's been placed on you. Or if
you're in a district where youhave a lot of Bureau of Land
Management or federal force, itthey don't quite have the tax
base that they may have inlarger urban areas. So the
disparity that falls ontaxpayers, because the
legislature won't actually meetthe highest law of the land that
(18:40):
they're supposed to, thatthey've sworn to follow, has
created just this morass that wesee in local by local being a
different level of educationprovided to children. And that's
that's the bottom line, right?
It's, it's these children, thatif you have a certain zip code,
you get the premium. And if youhave another zip code, you're
you're you have textbooks fromthe 80s.
Janie Ward-Engleking (19:03):
And, you know, I think it's important to
point out that when these leviesand bonds are put on to a
property tax owners were in somecases, we're pricing our seniors
out of their homes, and we'repricing our young, young adults
out of being able to afford ahome. And so it's very
(19:24):
problematic on both ends, Ithink. And that's why it's
important that we have thisrecord surplus that we invest
it, where we need to invest it,and we've invested in the future
of Idaho and in our children.
And I think it's critical thatwe're at a we're at really a
pivotal point. And we need tomake sure that that those
dollars are being spent as asthey should be on our children
(19:48):
in the future of Idaho.
Mike Journee (19:51):
Well said. So, one thing that was a couple of
headlines that I didn't talkabout yet that were in the in
the Idaho education The NewsThis Morning. There were four
headlines related to vouchers inone form or another depending on
how one labels vouchers. Infact, there was an opinion piece
(20:13):
from two of your fellow senatorsin there talking about they're
promoting the concept schoolchoice, right. That's one that's
one word that are one phrasethat people use to to label the
voucher concept. And then KevinRichard actually wrote a really
interesting analysis piece aboutabout the monitors that people
put on the vouchers on voucherconcepts. And so how likely are
(20:38):
we to see I well, I guess thequestion is, is is how likely is
about your concept going to begoing forward? Now, you are a
member of the Senate EducationCommittee as well. And there are
and that that committee is chocka block full of folks, I think,
who would like to see voucherscome come to fruition?
Janie Ward-Engleking (20:55):
Well, the reality is, our constitution
basically forbids vouchers forprivate schools and for
religious schools. And so, youknow, we're and to be frank,
we're underfunding the schoolsthat we currently have. And
Idaho actually does offer agreat deal of choice for parents
(21:19):
when schools are well funded.
Right, right. We have I mean, ina school district, parent can
petition to go to any of theschools in the school district,
if there's multiple high schoolsor multiple grade schools. We
have 77 charter schoolsthroughout the state. And we
have online opportunities, wehave homeschooling, we provide
(21:40):
curriculum for anybody who wantsto go that route. We even have a
lot of blended opportunities, wehave career technical, there are
an dual credit, where they cantake college classes while
they're still in high school. SoIdaho is ranked very high in the
choices that we offer parents.
(22:03):
So I think it's disingenuous forpeople to pretend like we don't
have school choice, because wedo vouchers is a whole different
deal. And I think until we areable to adequately fund our
traditional and charter schools,in this state, our public
(22:24):
schools, we should not be goingdown the road of providing money
for private schools. Andfrankly, there aren't very many
private schools in rural Idaho.
So this would this would onlybenefit a very few areas of the
state. And I don't think that'swhere we need to be going.
Paul Stark (22:44):
Senator, would it be fair to say that Idaho is full
of school choice, what we'redebating is who pays for the
choice? Whether the taxpayerspay for these choices or, or
whether the taxpayers shouldmeet there, or the government
should meet its constitutionalduty? Is that fair?
Janie Ward-Engleking (23:01):
Well, I think it is fair, but I think we
even pay for quite a bit ofchoice within the state for
parents. The government pays forquite a bit. I mean, when you
look at our charter schools arepublicly funded. And there's 77
of them in this state currently.
We also have online schools thatare publicly funded, ideally.
(23:22):
And so those and we have careertechnical schools that are
public ly funded, we have dualcredits that are being offered
to everybody. So we fund quite abit of school choice. What I
don't think we should startdoing in the future is funding
private schools. That is achoice. If people want to take
(23:48):
that opportunity. It's a choicethey can certainly choose. But
we we need to provide publicschools for all children. And
that has to be our top priority.
Paul Stark (24:06):
When I'm, this is kind of using a seasonal
analogy, but when I think aboutvouchers, I think like I have I
have five kids myself, and Iimagine a time when all this
kids were sick and someone wasthrown up, someone had a fever,
someone was coughing. And so Iget sent to the store to get
some medicine to help my kids.
And I've got the money to helpmy kids to give them what they
(24:29):
need to get them feeling better.
But then I go to the store and Idecide to buy candy canes
instead. And I'm spending mymoney on candy canes when I know
what will actually help mychildren. That's how I feel a
little bit about vouchers isthat we have this money. We have
a budget surplus. We know how tofix education. We have a moment
we have this opportunity rightnow. To do right and to repair a
(24:52):
lot of the a lot of the misstepsof the past and the underfunding
and the crisis in the in itteachers and support
professionals. And insteadthere's people talking about
buying candy canes. And that'sjust that's just, it's, it's
illogical and it's franklyirresponsible.
Janie Ward-Engleking (25:11):
Well, and they, these, they, you know, use
parental choice as a way to sellthis to the public. But the
reality is, we, we, we listen toparents all the time as
educators, and we work veryclosely with them, because we
know that a good partnershipbetween an educator and a parent
(25:31):
is what moves the child forward.
So parents are very, can be asinvolved as they want in their
public schools right now. Sonow, having said that, I will
say that, you know, we have awide range of expectations from
parents, and we have to berealistic that maybe not every
(25:52):
single parent is going to havethe school run exactly like they
want, but they can be involved,and we need to do what's best
for children. And we know rightnow that giving children a good
public education with a highlyskilled teacher is what's
important. And we start sendingmoney to parents and letting
(26:16):
them spend it to homeschool orto do whatever they want, could
get very problematic, I thinkdown the road, it would depend
on all we'd have to put a lot ofguidelines in place even to do
that. And I don't think we'reready to go down that road.
Mike Journee (26:36):
Thank you all for the conversation has been
really, really fascinating.
Thank you, senator for yourservice. Thank you for your,
your, your your place at theIdaho legislature bringing your
educators sensibilities to tothe discussion over there.
Thanks for the lane and Paul forthe conversation. That was a
good one. And until next time.
Janie Ward-Engleking (26:55):
Thank you.
Thanks, Senator. Pleased to behere. Thank you very much.
Mike Journee (27:00):
Thank you for listening to Idaho education
Association's hotline podcast,and this important discussion
about the chronic underfundingof Idaho's Public Schools.
Thanks as well to our guests IEAmember and Idaho Senator Jamie
Ward Engel King IEA, PresidentElaine McAnally IEA executive
director Paul Stark, pleasewatch for future updates about
new episodes on IAS, socialmedia channels or sign up for
(27:22):
email updates on our website atIdaho eaa.org. I'm Mike journee.
And as always, I hope you joinme in thanking Idaho's public
school educators for everythingthey do for our State students,
families, and public schools.
Welcome to Idaho education Association's hotline
podcast, a weekly discussionabout what's happening at the
Idaho legislature around publiceducation, and the policy
priorities of ies members, IEAmembers or public school
educators from all over thestate. They're Idaho's most
important education experts andthey use their influence to
fight for free quality andequitable public education for
(00:33):
every student in the state. I'mMike journee, communications
director at Ida and I'll be yourhost for this episode of
hotline. Today, we discussIdaho's decades of chronic
underfunding of public schoolsand the cascading impacts it has
on students learning, and publicschool educators. joining me for
today's conversation are IEA,member of Idaho Senator Janie
(00:56):
Ward-Engelking, who is a memberof the Senate Education
Committee, and a member of thepowerful budget writing Joint
Finance and appropriationscommittee. IEA President Elaine
McAnally and IEA executivedirector Paul Stark. So thank
you all for joining me for thisnext episode of the hotline
(01:17):
podcast. And today we're goingto be talking about education
funding. And we have the we havea an esteemed group of folks
here education experts who paywho do a lot at the Idaho
legislature. And thank you,Senator ordering looking for
joining us today. And weappreciate your time. And I
(01:37):
wanted to kind of start this offby by talking a little bit about
it seems like going into thissession, the dynamics around
education and education funding,in particular, are different
than in previous years, thereseems to be a lot of jockeying
for position on some issues thatwe have might not have seen
previously. And I'd be curiousto know if you feel the same
(02:00):
way, and what do you think'sbehind it,
Janie Ward-Engleking (02:02):
I think there is a little bit different
feel going into this session,we've spent spending a lot of
time talking about education,traditional school facilities.
And so that's had been oneverybody's radar after the
study that was done last yearthat showed that 70% of our
(02:23):
schools are, are not in goodcondition. They're fair or poor.
And we have a tremendous numberof buildings that are aging out.
So I think that's on everybody'sradar, we also have a surplus.
And we know that we havetremendous needs and education,
we've dug a pretty deep hole forourselves. That's right over the
(02:44):
years. And so we've got someopportunities to do some good
things. And I'm hoping we canget everybody on board.
Mike Journee (02:51):
That's great. And I wonder, do you feel like we
have a little different dynamicwith the special session that
came in in September, where theyyou guys earmarked $330 million
for K through 12 educationwithout setting any policy
around that. And so it'sinteresting to kind of see the
dynamics around that too. Isthat is that kind of?
Janie Ward-Engleking (03:10):
Yeah, there's gonna be a battle
probably and J fac on how thatmoney is going to be allocated.
There's a lot of different ideasout there. We certainly talk to
the governor about some of histhoughts, and, and we all have
areas that we want to address.
But I'm hoping that we'll lookat health care insurance, we
know that we underfunded thatlast year by about 80 to 100
(03:33):
million. We also know thatclassified staff, we have got to
increase the funding that wesend out from the state because
we're not getting the job done.
And to be real Frank, we are notkeeping pace with our neighbors
when it comes to educationfunding for teachers. So we're
(03:55):
we're we've got areas that needto be addressed. And hopefully
with those funds, we can look atthose areas. And then I'm hoping
that we you know we have asurplus, and some of it's one
time but some of it isn't andthat needs to also be looked
Mike Journee (04:11):
at right and so and that that comes back to a
little bit of the setup to thislast year. We had a really
strong legislative session 11%increase in K through 12.
Funding recommended by thegovernor and approved by the
legislature, then the specialsession with another record
amount set aside. Going intothis we have a 1.5 billion
(04:33):
despite the the measures takenduring the special session we're
going in with another 1.5billion in surplus funny having
said that, I was looking at theeducation news website this
morning and we read off theheadlines that are there. Le A's
dish out nearly 100 million tofill gap and state funding for
classified staff. Idaho FallsSchool Board scrambles to
(04:54):
address overcrowding afterfailed bond. This year,
taxpayers will shell out Therecord $596.1 million for
education bonds and levies, andrural, the rural Teacher
Incentive Program receives 794applications. And thank you,
Senator for your sponsorship ofthat legislation last year was
(05:16):
a, it was an important thing andbut that that number shows the
demand for that program.
Janie Ward-Engleking (05:23):
Yeah, we only had 500 slots. So we need
to look at probably increasingthat. But But you're right,
we've underfunded education atthe state level for years. And
we've asked communities to pickup that the slack there. And,
frankly, right now, with risingproperty taxes, it's not
(05:44):
possible for school districts topass those bonds. And we're
seeing an increasing number ofschool districts go to a four
day week. And it's not becauseit's good for kids, it's because
it's what they can afford. Sowe've we know, we have issues,
and we need to take care ofeducation funding. on a state
(06:05):
level, it's constitutionallymandated, we need to do a better
job because we're asking our,our local school districts to
pick up the slack and ourpatrons in those communities and
where they want to do it becausethey care deeply about
education. And we know thatbecause reclaim Idaho was able
to get an initiative on theballot to raise funding for
(06:28):
education, they just can't do iton their property tax anymore.
So we can do better, and we needto do better, we owe it to our
children. And we owe it frankly,to the state of Idaho, because
our businesses are strugglingthey need they need more people
in the workforce. And the onlyway that happens is if we can
convince our children to stay inIdaho, and if we take care of
(06:52):
the education needs, right.
Mike Journee (06:54):
So Layne, we we Idaho Education members, we're
very thankful to the legislaturefor the recent increases. But we
all know and the Senator isalluding to this, too, we all
know that, that those increasesare going to be there. In the
current economic, currenteconomic conditions, with
(07:16):
inflation, and the need that'sthere, it's really not gonna not
gonna help things in asignificant way, and we need to
keep that momentum going.
Layne McInelly (07:25):
We really do.
Because the opportunity that wehave right now with the surplus
is going to take us from being51st in the state for per pupil
51st in the nation, for perpupil spending to maybe 47th. So
we really need to look at what'sgoing to be best for the
students in Idaho. And one ofthose things would be lowering
our class sizes. as a classroomteacher, when I had 32 students
(07:47):
in my classroom, it was reallydifficult to be able to get to
every single one of my studentsneeds. But when I had smaller
class size of 20, for one year,I definitely felt the impact of
being able to personalizelessons and meet the needs of
the individual students. And sobeing able to have those smaller
class sizes is going to beincredibly beneficial. Not only
(08:07):
that, but we can also providemore social emotional health for
our students, we can have morecounselors and nurses and
psychologists in our schools, sothat as a teacher, I can be in
the classroom teaching. And whenI identify an issue or a student
with trauma, there's aprofessional in the building
that I can refer that studentto, so I can continue to focus
(08:28):
on teaching. And then thatstudent can go and get the
professional help that theyneed, and then come back to my
classroom and be ready to learn.
It's incredible, incrediblydifficult to teach a student
through trauma until that traumahas been addressed. And so to
have those professionals in theschools will help the students
succeed, which in then then inturn will help this the educator
(08:51):
succeed in their job.
Paul Stark (08:53):
You know, if I can jump in here real quick to you
know, we've had I've heard, I'veheard from yours. We all have
now about how outcomes studentoutcomes is the end game, right?
We want to increase studentoutcomes. And we've heard about
that through all kinds of avariety of accountability
measures and, and differentschemes of this and that
throughout the years. But itisn't the ultimate unfunded
mandate, Senator that like,we're demanding outcomes, but
(09:16):
then we're strangling you withthe resources, you need to get
those outcomes going off of whatElaine was just saying, you
know, a class size of 36. Itwill affect outcomes. And if
you're forcing us into that, butyet demanding this it is it is
like the ultimate example of anunfunded mandate and unfunded
expectations by the legislature,isn't it?
Janie Ward-Engleking (09:38):
Well, and I think you're you know, we also
have to take into account thatwe've just come out of a
pandemic and and we've seentremendous learning loss for our
children. And some of that's dueto the fact that they weren't in
the classroom, but some of it isthat they were socially isolated
and they were dealing with a lotof things Since SOTA expect him
(10:01):
to walk right back in theclassroom and take off, isn't
realistic. So, yes, I believethat we've set the stage for
only funding things if we seethe outcomes we want. And yet,
by not funding, we havedetermined that outcome is not
going to be as successful or asgood as we want it to by
(10:25):
underfunding schools, by being51st in the nation by not paying
our teachers as well as oursurrounding states, we're losing
highly skilled teachers to otherstates. So yeah, we've set
things in motion that reallyimpact that outcome of our
students. And, and we need totake that into account when
(10:45):
we're looking at the needs ofour kids. And we just have to do
better.
Layne McInelly (10:50):
One of those ways we can do better, like you
said, is through having a highlyskilled, certified educator in
every classroom across thestate, making sure that every
student has the same opportunityto learn by having that educator
who's specifically trained, andhow to teach in understanding
the pedagogy of, of learning ofstudents is incredibly
(11:11):
important. And one way thatwe're going to do that is by
paying our educators orprofessional wage, and making
sure that we retain thoseeducators that have that
knowledge instead of continuallycontinuing to lose them to the
state surrounding us.
Janie Ward-Engleking (11:25):
And our, you know, our children should
not be faced with the theirquality of their education,
depending on the zip code theylive in, whether they're able to
pass a bond or Levy, or whetherthey're able to attract highly
skilled educators. We knowthat's the most important aspect
(11:45):
of a child's education, it's tohave that contact with a highly
skilled educator. And yet, wehaven't made sure that we have
those people in every singleclassroom.
Mike Journee (11:56):
Well, in fact, we're we're in the midst of what
can only be considered aeducator vacancy crisis, right?
I mean, and at all levels, notjust certified, but also
education support professionals.
I mean, we have overfilling,state coffers, and we have that
ongoing job vacancy crisis foreducators, we have a student
mental health and well beingcrisis, which you guys have
already touched on. And we havea huge need for investment in
facilities. I mean, these arethings that that are fundamental
(12:18):
to classroom outcomes, that likePaul was talking about, and yet,
that $1.5 billion budget sittingthere are surplus sitting there
that we that could could coulddo some really good with that
situation.
Janie Ward-Engleking (12:34):
And one of the problems is we don't have
enough educators in thelegislature serving in the
legislature. So theunderstanding isn't there. And
so it's up to us, as educatorsto make sure that we work with
them and, and help themunderstand what's really
important for child's education.
And so it's really our job to dothat. But it would be helpful if
(12:58):
we had a few more educators inthe legislature.
Mike Journee (13:07):
And this isn't just the he said she said kind
of debate policy, and this issomething that that has been
talked about in the courts. Andthere's actually a an old
Supreme Court case from 2005.
That talked about the the theinadequate funding for school
facilities, and here we arehaving the same conversation
now. Talk to you, you're theyou're the attorney, and you're
(13:27):
gonna talk a little bit aboutabout that about the the
constitutional mandate,
Paul Stark (13:31):
a recovering attorney, let me say that. But
yeah, there is thatconstitutional mandate. That's
it's very clear, it's veryobvious. And yet those there are
some in our legislature whoprofess to be constitutionalist
who wish to choose to ignorethat portion of it. But yeah, we
have an absolute mandate to dothis. And I think the the
(13:52):
addiction to local leviesdemonstrates just how much the
legislature has shirk their dutyin that respect. I mean,
basically, what they've done isthey've taken their
constitutional duty, rememberthe lead, the Constitution says
it's the legislature that shalldo this. They've taken their own
constitution, all duty, andthey've kicked it back to these
good superintendents that haveto go hat in hand every few
(14:15):
years to their community beggingfor the resources that
constitutionally the legislaturesupposed to allocate. And that's
that's just a real shame. It's,it's it's unconstitutional. And
if we are true to theConstitution, we will see we
will see legislature stand up tothat duty.
Mike Journee (14:31):
Yeah, let's let's talk a little bit more about
that. You know, we talked aboutI talked about the headline
about taxpayers will shell out arecord 596 point 1 million for
education bonds and levies inthe coming year. Those were
bonds and levies approved in thecalendar year 2022. What that
headline doesn't say is thatthere was over a billion dollars
(14:51):
worth of bonds and levies putbefore voters so that means
nearly half of the needs thatour superstar school boards and
superintendents and and schooldistricts around the state asked
for were rejected by voters. Andthat in and of itself creates
the inequity we've been talkingabout. Isn't that right,
Senator?
Janie Ward-Engleking (15:11):
Yes, it does. And I, you know, I find it
interesting we have a lot oflegislators that are, you know,
they preach accountability toeducators. And yet their own
accountability is sometimeslacks when it comes to upholding
their constitutional mandate,which is to fund schools. And
we, you know, we know right nowthat with the record growth
(15:34):
we're seeing in Idaho, and with,you know, the new infusion of
students that we've got to buildmore schools, and it we just
can't do it with property taxes,and especially with the two
thirds mandate that we have toget voter approval by two
thirds. And that's a very highstandard. It's a
Mike Journee (15:56):
very high standard. And and it's not, and
it's one of the reasons why Ibelieve that Idaho Falls vote,
the $250 million bond, I believethey they received upwards of
60%. I can't remember four or58%, I believe four, four, so a
clear majority approve that.
Yeah, it didn't meet that thattwo thirds standard that the
Constitution requires,
Janie Ward-Engleking (16:17):
right. And that's, that's higher than most
of their surrounding states, forsure. In fact, I think it's one
of the most restrictive in thein the United States. And so
it's a very high threshold. Andso that's something we ought to
also look at maybe 60% is morereasonable, because we really
(16:38):
have to make sure that we ourchildren have adequate places to
go to school and, and highlyskilled teachers. It's it's an
imperative.
Mike Journee (16:48):
And a lot of these Bom measures were or were in
fast growing districts, right,where there's a huge need. Idaho
Falls is a good example of that.
They're overcrowded. West aid isanother great example of a
school district that needs morefacilities. But also some of
these smaller districts wereasking for very fundamental
things like bus direct buses,and and pay for education
support professionals and thosekinds of things. That, that you
(17:10):
just can't, that that that arefundamental to the running of a
school. Right, Lane.
Layne McInelly (17:17):
Absolutely. And it also highlights the inequity,
like you and Senator said,between the different school
districts you can be in oneschool district that doesn't
provide some of the sameopportunities that a school
district 12 miles away does likehaving a science lab or having a
shop class or having healthclass that is taught in a health
(17:38):
lab, there are opportunitiesthat some students are afforded.
And other students aren'tbecause the school districts are
able to pass levies and bonds.
And it's really unfortunate,because like you said, our
constitution does mandate a fairand equitable education for all
students in Idaho. And that'snot what's being provided right
now.
Paul Stark (17:56):
And let's see, if I can jump in, let's not forget
that this has a disproportionateeffect on property tax owners,
this constitutional mandatethat, arguably, our legislature
as a whole senator, with allrespect to you, of course, the
legislature as a whole has hasneglected has now fought fallen
on the shoulders of propertyowners within and if you're, if
(18:17):
you're a retired individualunlimited income, this is a
greater and greater burdenthat's been placed on you. Or if
you're in a district where youhave a lot of Bureau of Land
Management or federal force, itthey don't quite have the tax
base that they may have inlarger urban areas. So the
disparity that falls ontaxpayers, because the
legislature won't actually meetthe highest law of the land that
(18:40):
they're supposed to, thatthey've sworn to follow, has
created just this morass that wesee in local by local being a
different level of educationprovided to children. And that's
that's the bottom line, right?
It's, it's these children, thatif you have a certain zip code,
you get the premium. And if youhave another zip code, you're
you're you have textbooks fromthe 80s.
Janie Ward-Engleking (19:03):
And, you know, I think it's important to
point out that when these leviesand bonds are put on to a
property tax owners were in somecases, we're pricing our seniors
out of their homes, and we'repricing our young, young adults
out of being able to afford ahome. And so it's very
(19:24):
problematic on both ends, Ithink. And that's why it's
important that we have thisrecord surplus that we invest
it, where we need to invest it,and we've invested in the future
of Idaho and in our children.
And I think it's critical thatwe're at a we're at really a
pivotal point. And we need tomake sure that that those
dollars are being spent as asthey should be on our children
(19:48):
in the future of Idaho.
Mike Journee (19:51):
Well said. So, one thing that was a couple of
headlines that I didn't talkabout yet that were in the in
the Idaho education The NewsThis Morning. There were four
headlines related to vouchers inone form or another depending on
how one labels vouchers. Infact, there was an opinion piece
(20:13):
from two of your fellow senatorsin there talking about they're
promoting the concept schoolchoice, right. That's one that's
one word that are one phrasethat people use to to label the
voucher concept. And then KevinRichard actually wrote a really
interesting analysis piece aboutabout the monitors that people
put on the vouchers on voucherconcepts. And so how likely are
(20:38):
we to see I well, I guess thequestion is, is is how likely is
about your concept going to begoing forward? Now, you are a
member of the Senate EducationCommittee as well. And there are
and that that committee is chocka block full of folks, I think,
who would like to see voucherscome come to fruition?
Janie Ward-Engleking (20:55):
Well, the reality is, our constitution
basically forbids vouchers forprivate schools and for
religious schools. And so, youknow, we're and to be frank,
we're underfunding the schoolsthat we currently have. And
Idaho actually does offer agreat deal of choice for parents
(21:19):
when schools are well funded.
Right, right. We have I mean, ina school district, parent can
petition to go to any of theschools in the school district,
if there's multiple high schoolsor multiple grade schools. We
have 77 charter schoolsthroughout the state. And we
have online opportunities, wehave homeschooling, we provide
(21:40):
curriculum for anybody who wantsto go that route. We even have a
lot of blended opportunities, wehave career technical, there are
an dual credit, where they cantake college classes while
they're still in high school. SoIdaho is ranked very high in the
choices that we offer parents.
(22:03):
So I think it's disingenuous forpeople to pretend like we don't
have school choice, because wedo vouchers is a whole different
deal. And I think until we areable to adequately fund our
traditional and charter schools,in this state, our public
(22:24):
schools, we should not be goingdown the road of providing money
for private schools. Andfrankly, there aren't very many
private schools in rural Idaho.
So this would this would onlybenefit a very few areas of the
state. And I don't think that'swhere we need to be going.
Paul Stark (22:44):
Senator, would it be fair to say that Idaho is full
of school choice, what we'redebating is who pays for the
choice? Whether the taxpayerspay for these choices or, or
whether the taxpayers shouldmeet there, or the government
should meet its constitutionalduty? Is that fair?
Janie Ward-Engleking (23:01):
Well, I think it is fair, but I think we
even pay for quite a bit ofchoice within the state for
parents. The government pays forquite a bit. I mean, when you
look at our charter schools arepublicly funded. And there's 77
of them in this state currently.
We also have online schools thatare publicly funded, ideally.
(23:22):
And so those and we have careertechnical schools that are
public ly funded, we have dualcredits that are being offered
to everybody. So we fund quite abit of school choice. What I
don't think we should startdoing in the future is funding
private schools. That is achoice. If people want to take
(23:48):
that opportunity. It's a choicethey can certainly choose. But
we we need to provide publicschools for all children. And
that has to be our top priority.
Paul Stark (24:06):
When I'm, this is kind of using a seasonal
analogy, but when I think aboutvouchers, I think like I have I
have five kids myself, and Iimagine a time when all this
kids were sick and someone wasthrown up, someone had a fever,
someone was coughing. And so Iget sent to the store to get
some medicine to help my kids.
And I've got the money to helpmy kids to give them what they
(24:29):
need to get them feeling better.
But then I go to the store and Idecide to buy candy canes
instead. And I'm spending mymoney on candy canes when I know
what will actually help mychildren. That's how I feel a
little bit about vouchers isthat we have this money. We have
a budget surplus. We know how tofix education. We have a moment
we have this opportunity rightnow. To do right and to repair a
(24:52):
lot of the a lot of the misstepsof the past and the underfunding
and the crisis in the in itteachers and support
professionals. And insteadthere's people talking about
buying candy canes. And that'sjust that's just, it's, it's
illogical and it's franklyirresponsible.
Janie Ward-Engleking (25:11):
Well, and they, these, they, you know, use
parental choice as a way to sellthis to the public. But the
reality is, we, we, we listen toparents all the time as
educators, and we work veryclosely with them, because we
know that a good partnershipbetween an educator and a parent
(25:31):
is what moves the child forward.
So parents are very, can be asinvolved as they want in their
public schools right now. Sonow, having said that, I will
say that, you know, we have awide range of expectations from
parents, and we have to berealistic that maybe not every
(25:52):
single parent is going to havethe school run exactly like they
want, but they can be involved,and we need to do what's best
for children. And we know rightnow that giving children a good
public education with a highlyskilled teacher is what's
important. And we start sendingmoney to parents and letting
(26:16):
them spend it to homeschool orto do whatever they want, could
get very problematic, I thinkdown the road, it would depend
on all we'd have to put a lot ofguidelines in place even to do
that. And I don't think we'reready to go down that road.
Mike Journee (26:36):
Thank you all for the conversation has been
really, really fascinating.
Thank you, senator for yourservice. Thank you for your,
your, your your place at theIdaho legislature bringing your
educators sensibilities to tothe discussion over there.
Thanks for the lane and Paul forthe conversation. That was a
good one. And until next time.
Janie Ward-Engleking (26:55):
Thank you.
Thanks, Senator. Pleased to behere. Thank you very much.
Mike Journee (27:00):
Thank you for listening to Idaho education
Association's hotline podcast,and this important discussion
about the chronic underfundingof Idaho's Public Schools.
Thanks as well to our guests IEAmember and Idaho Senator Jamie
Ward Engel King IEA, PresidentElaine McAnally IEA executive
director Paul Stark, pleasewatch for future updates about
new episodes on IAS, socialmedia channels or sign up for
(27:22):
email updates on our website atIdaho eaa.org. I'm Mike journee.
And as always, I hope you joinme in thanking Idaho's public
school educators for everythingthey do for our State students,
families, and public schools.
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