February 3, 2023 • 38 mins
In this episode of HOTLINE, we discuss the first three weeks of the Idaho Legislature’s 2023 session. There’s been quite a bit action around education at the Statehouse as those with a wide variety of perspectives about public education begin bringing their proposals forward.
Our panel discusses:
- Three key factions among lawmakers looking to influence education policy
- An unlikely proposed amendment to the Idaho Constitution that aims to clear the way (but likely falls short) for allowing the state to use tax dollars to pay for private religious education
- The session's first full-throated voucher bill from Sen. Tammy Nichols of Middleton and other anti-public education lawmakers
- IEA's Local Lobby Days
Joining host Mike Journee for today’s conversation are:
- IEA’s Political Director Chris Parri
- IEA Executive Director Paul Stark
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Micheal Journee (00:12):
Welcome to Idaho education Association's
hotline podcast, a weeklydiscussion about what's
happening at the legislaturearound public education, and the
policy priorities of iesmembers. I EAA members or public
school educators from all overthe state. There Idaho's most
important education experts, andthey use their influence to
fight for a free quality andequitable public education for
(00:32):
every student in the state. I'mMike journee, communications
director at the IEA and I'll beyour host for this episode of
hotline.
Mike Journee (00:40):
Today we discuss the first three weeks of the
Idaho legislature is 2023session. Since our last episode,
there's been quite a bit ofaction around education at the
statehouse, as those with a widevariety of perspectives about
public education, begin bringingtheir proposals forward. joining
me for today's conversation, ouries political director, Chris
Perry, and IEA ExecutiveDirector, Paul Stark. Well,
(01:02):
Chris Paul, thanks for joiningme today and having this
conversation about the firstcouple of weeks of the
legislature. And, you know, it'sbeen a busy few weeks. But I
really don't think there's beenany huge surprises. So far,
we've kind of seen what wethought we're going to see from
certain corners of thelegislature. We know that the
governor's budget bills aregoing to be coming later in the
year all the good news foreducators. In the meantime,
(01:22):
we've got some policy debatesthat are happening. We've seen
some voucher legislation comeforward from legislators that we
thought were going to push offyour bills. You know, one of the
most surprising things, I thinkwe really had a robust
discussion this week around theneed for the school, or for the
state to get involved more inschool building school
(01:43):
facilities and the discussionaround that. So that's going to
be something that we will wantto keep an eye on. But before we
get into that, Chris, you and Ihave had a couple of
conversations this week aboutabout the interesting dynamics
around the different factionsthat seem to be aligning the
session around education, andthe folks that that want to
influence education policies.
And I just wanted you to talk alittle bit about that before we
(02:05):
kind of get going into the nittygritty of the of the bills that
have been coming forward.
Chris Parri (02:10):
Yeah, the makeup of the legislature, we knew it was
going to change quite a bit,there was a ton of turnover.
What is it 40 Something percentare brand new legislators this
time around after redistricting.
So what has kind of crystallizedin the legislature has been kind
of three groups when it comes topublic education policy, I'd say
one group is kind of justideologically and sort of
(02:34):
emotionally connected to theidea of of destroying public
education as an entire concept.
There's not a lot going on underthere, except for just a
complete drive to do that. Andso they're linking public
education to all of theconspiracy theories that we've
seen over the past couple ofyears, be it three letter
(02:54):
acronyms like SEO and CRT.
You know, stuff about LGBTQ plusstudents. You name it. They're
trying to slander publiceducation to meet that goal of
eroding it as a institution inAmerica. Really?
Paul Stark (03:11):
Can I jump in real to Chris, you know, it seems
like to they're, they'reinterested in like, kind of
social issue fights, they're notit doesn't seem like that
faction is really interested inlike, putting anything forward
that is constructive to policyor to building you know, the
constitutional mandate foreducation. So it seems like it's
(03:33):
a lot of Destructo and quite abit less like building the barn.
Chris Parri (03:37):
Totally. And like fishing around for things that
kind of, like impact people onsocial issues, right. So they
can kind of get out they callthose dog whistles. I think so.
Yes. dog whistles. That's kindof the culture wars. That's
yeah, that's right.
Mike Journee (03:51):
And I guess I will just since since Paul jumped in,
I want to jump into and justkind of make a quick plug for a
story that's out there that wasposted today on the website of
the Idaho Capitol sun. And it'san extraordinary fine piece of
journalism from from a reporternamed Kelsey Mosley Morris,
where she takes a really deepdive into the dark money
(04:12):
interest behind vouchers behindsupposedly so called school
choice. And, and and thenational campaign that's ongoing
around in states across thecountry, including Idaho to
bring to get a toehold forvouchers. They've been
successful in other states.
We're going to talk about that alittle bit here. It's special in
Arizona. And but but I wouldhighly encourage folks to go and
(04:35):
take a look at that story on theIdaho Capitol son website. It's
an extraordinary piece of work.
So
Chris Parri (04:41):
yeah, so good. Oh, yeah.
Paul Stark (04:42):
Before Paul. Yeah.
In that to the legislation thatwe saw on vouchers is actually
basically a cut and paste from anational warehouse of policy
writers that write thingsnationally. It's not Idaho. It
doesn't it wasn't born here inIdaho. Believe me. It was born
somewhere in New York City orCincinnati are similar. And what
we're doing is we're seeing thisthis kind of cut and paste
(05:04):
foreign policy being imposedupon Idaho where is
traditionally we've seeneducation policy drafted by
Idahoans for the needs of Idaho.
It's not this kind of national,right. And
Chris Parri (05:16):
the folks that are carrying it are folks from my
group I mentioned, it's thatgroup of people who are
ideologically dedicated to justbe against public education. And
this is how they're trying tochisel at it this year. And
probably next year, I'm probablya year after who knows. But what
I found really interesting. SoPaul mentioned how this is model
policy. Basically, it's beingpassed around by these dark
money groups, who are funded bybillionaires and massive
(05:39):
corporations. And they are it'sjust mimicry across the nation
as far as these bills go. Andcontrasting that to what
Governor little said at ourLobby Day dinner when he was
there, where he talked about howhe had studied education systems
in other states, and sees whysometimes something might work
in one state versus anotherstate. And he's being very
(06:01):
nuanced about what would work inIdaho, particularly when it
comes to school choice andhaving a public framework for
school choice that actuallymakes sense for Idahoans not
just copy and pasting a policyfrom Arizona, which has a copy
and paste policy from, you know,Wisconsin or something like
that. So I found that it's justsuch an amazing contrast to me
to have folks be focused onIdaho first policy, like the
(06:23):
governor, versus, you know, copyand paste policy,
Paul Stark (06:27):
and the governor and the governor's hearing from
Idaho educators on the groundIdaho educators, whereas the
other hot side they're hearingfrom Betsy DeVos is lead
lobbyist, you know, those aretwo very different voices and
coming from two very differentplaces. That's right,
Mike Journee (06:44):
bring it back full circle to where we started with,
with these three groups, Chris,and we thought we've got this,
this this, what I'm going tocall the the enemies of public
education group, honestly, Imean, there's just really
there's no other label you canput on them that doesn't that
and they're they're not evergoing to see things the way that
our members do. That's right.
Yeah. So continue with your withyour
Chris Parri (07:06):
shirt. Yeah. So then, okay, so we could talk
about that third group forever.
But luckily, they are a, asmall, tiny, loud minority in
the legislature. The next group,I wanted to chat about kind of,
at the, in the core of some ofthese discussions is this group
that is well meaning, and thatwe agree with on some things,
but kind of get, they havemisguided alliances, sometimes
particularly on school choice,because at the core of school
(07:28):
choice is some you know, they'llhear about it all over the place
in media as a good idea. Andthere's there's a whole media
structure dedicated to pushingthe idea that vouchers are a
good idea, funded by the samepeople we were just talking
about funded by the exactlyfunded by the same groups that
we were just talking about.
There's a whole media spherededicated the idea that vouchers
(07:49):
are a good idea, not just forstudents that are going to
private, and parochial and homeschools, but for public schools,
as well. And so you'll hearsometimes in the statehouse,
from this group of people whobelieve vouchers will improve
public education, when we allknow our members will know. And
we have all of our data thatsays, of course it doesn't. And
(08:09):
so that group is a group that Istill enjoy talking to and
trying to get convinced onto ourside of things and are movable
on on issues, because again,they they their heart is in the
right place, if even if they'vebeen misguided. Down the voucher
path, I guess we could say. Andthen finally, we get to the bulk
of the legislature, I think themajority of the legislature in
(08:31):
both chambers, who are dedicatedto public education, they see
how hard our educators work.
They resist these efforts todismantle public education.
They're looking for innovative,what innovative ways to to make
public education work for Idahoand make school choice work for
Idaho, if you want to use theterm school choice for these
different kinds of publicoptions that are presented to
(08:52):
parents voucher schools up toabout your Yeah, that's right.
Yeah. So the bulk of thelegislature agrees that we want
a strong and effective publiceducation system in Idaho that
serves all students isaccountable to taxpayers, all of
the things that you don't getwith vouchers. So as this is
materializing, it's becomingclear that we do have a very
(09:13):
strong piece of the legislaturethat wants to defend public
education, and we're workingwith them. And hand in hand, and
thankfully, I
Mike Journee (09:22):
think that includes the chairpersons of
both education committees, inspite of one committee being a
challenge for us, and as well asthe Governor as well, the
governor is squarely in in thatside of things. And so I think
that that bodes well for ourmembers and for the policy
initiatives that they're thatwe're bringing forward. So
Paul Stark (09:38):
can I make a quick point and that is, and this is
on a previous podcast as well.
But let's not forget that everyone of those legislators took an
oath to be pro public education.
And the reason I say that isbecause they took an oath to
uphold the Idaho constitution,and the Idaho constitution is
unequivocal in its support ofpublic education in the
(09:59):
requirement It's not adiscretionary matter, it is
required constitutionallyrequired. And yet we see those
that took that oath that areworking towards destroying what
the Constitution requires,
Mike Journee (10:11):
and even passing legislation to amend the
Constitution just to get theirparticular policy piece through,
which probably is a good segueto some of the stuff you want to
talk about Mike, one of the moreblatant places that we kind of
see this dynamic at play isprobably in the Senate Education
Committee. And that's where wesaw legislation come forward
this week, and two differentpieces of legislation come
(10:34):
forward, the first being aconstitutional amendment, where
the this lawmaker, Brian Lenniefrom Nampa, he wants to
eliminate a clause of the Idahoconstitution that supposedly
prohibits public money frombeing used on religious private
(10:57):
education. And, and so thatthat's one that's come forward
this week. He came forward onMonday and, Paul to tell us a
little bit about the backgroundof the so called Blaine
Amendment. And, and, and how wekind of got here around this
this topic. Yeah, blade
Paul Stark (11:13):
amendment is a misnomer. I mean, it's easy to
call it a blade meme and peopleknow what you're talking about.
It's actually a no gift clauseis what the more proper way to
call it Blaine have was asenator, US senator, who wanted
this to be part of every newstate that as they join the
union, that they would have tohave a certain provision there
that says you can't give publicdollars over to religious
(11:34):
schools. And it didn't goanywhere on the federal level.
But nonetheless, a lot of statesadopted such policies on their
own, and Idaho was one of them.
In the in the early days ofIdaho at 90 when the
Constitution was adopted here inIdaho, there was a no gift
clause and then basically said,Hey, we're not going to use any
state dollars to supportreligions. And it talks about
(11:54):
religious schools as well. Andthis is the classic church,
separation of church and statekind of thing. And I think most
of our listeners will understandwhat that means. So that Blaine
Amendment is out there, therewas a US Supreme Court case that
I think is largely misunderstoodby many of the proponents of
vouchers, and that is this caseof Espinosa versus Montana. That
(12:15):
case comes from an individualwho received a scholarship in
Montana, and took thatscholarship been tempted to use
it at a private religiousschool. Montana, like Idaho had
had their version of a no aidclause in their constitution and
the Montana Supreme Court ruledit unconstitutional. It was then
appealed to the US Supreme Courtthat ruled that the no aid
(12:39):
clause was unconstitutional, butit's not the way that it's been
spun. And this is a crucialdifference. The US Supreme Court
did not say that statelegislatures or state had, you
know, governments had to fundprivate education, nothing even
close to that and and that's theway it's been spun is oh, well
Espinosa. So we can go ahead andfund private schools, it did not
(13:01):
say that. What Espinosa standsfor is you cannot discriminate
on the basis of religion. That'sall it says. And in these no aid
clauses to the extent Montana'ssaid that you can't send this to
a religious school, the SupremeCourt said, if you're going to
fund private education, then youonce you do that, you can't
(13:24):
discriminate based upon it beinga religious school versus a non
religious school. That's allthat they said. They did not say
we had to fund private educationor the doors flung open for
private education. And indeed,the legislature is well within
their discretion to say we'renot going to find private
schools. Going to SenatorLenny's constitutional amendment
(13:46):
getting back to that, honestly,the best thing that I could do
is amend the no aid clause, theBlaine Amendment that we have in
our constitution to say that nomoney will flow to private
schools, period. Yeah, I get it.
Let's take out the religiousdiscrimination. You know, I'm I
understand that is the law ofthe land now. And it was
reaffirmed in another case,Carson, coming out of the state
(14:08):
of Maine. So I don't have anyproblem personally was saying,
let's take out the religionqualifier in there. But what we
should say is no taxpayerdollars should fund private
education, because it's justplumb not our constitutional
mandate.
Mike Journee (14:24):
Right. And, and this is moving forward, the,
from what I understand 37 or 50states have this clause in their
state constitutions as a resultof that, that national that
national effort, kind of goingforward. This needs two thirds
to happen in in both houses ofthe legislature then a majority
in order for it to actually gothrough to the Constitution. A
(14:47):
majority of voters in the in thenext statewide election have to
approve it. So this wasintroduced last Monday, Chris,
do you have any idea about whenthis is going to come forward
and when Paul's gonna be out?
We'll make these points about itwhen he testifies, it's
Chris Parri (15:02):
a extremely contentious idea to break open
the Constitution and startplaying with things in there. As
Paul mentioned, all of thelegislators took an oath to the
Constitution as it is. So it'sgoing to be a tall order, I
think, to get particularly twothirds of the legislature, let
alone a majority, I thinkthey're both tall orders on this
(15:24):
one. I don't even know if it'sgoing to get a hearing in
whatever committee they try andrun it through, because it is
such a contentious and kind ofharebrained idea to really go
after this, right. Like, likePaul mentioned, if a voucher
bill were to pass, and suddenlyyou started opening up a whole
bunch of funds that go to the goto private schools, the that's
(15:46):
kind of when people would havestanding to kind of start suing
the state if they if they reallywanted to use this money for a
parochial school or somethinglike that. So this seems to be
to me to be sort of a alegislator, looking at the
Constitution, identifying piecesof it, that he wishes were out
of there, and then trying topush it through himself. And I
don't see a whole bunch ofpeople kind of lining up behind
(16:08):
them for this one. I think it'sa nonstarter than I would be
surprised to see it ever hit theHouse or Senate floor, but I
have been certainly wrong in thepast. So we will see
Paul Stark (16:17):
Chris my right that the some of the polling that
we've looked at show that thethe citizens of Idaho have no
appetite for sending taxpayerdollars to private schools
because of religious orsectarian we, we were not
looking even amongst likelyRepublican primary voters.
There's really not an appetite,there's so much higher
priorities, like let's get somemoney to our rural schools where
(16:40):
they're really hurting. Andlet's get our classified
employees back on board. Youknow, I saw a report yesterday
that Idaho is 49 out of 51 forpay for classified or what we
call ESP education supportpersonnel that they this these
are the individuals in ourschools that really make things
(17:01):
work and allow educators toexcel and really allow learning
to blossom. And yet we're 49thin the nation. So I applaud
Governor little for trying tomake some efforts in that
regard.
Chris Parri (17:10):
Yeah, so the the polling that we have on that
says that only 18% of Idahoansprioritize sending taxpayer
money or allowing taxpayer fundsto go towards private school
tuition, compared to upwards of90% which is like shocking,
you'll hardly ever see that inpolls. And upwards of 90% who
support paying teachers a fairsalary and paying classified
(17:35):
staff a living wage so they canstick around. It's it blows
vouchers out of the water as faras where voucher voters are
prioritizing issue these issues.
Paul Stark (17:43):
So is it safe to say that anybody listening this
podcast should rest assured thepublic in Idaho continually as
they have support publiceducation? Absolutely,
Chris Parri (17:52):
just like you see in the legislature and extremely
loud minority pushing a lot ofthese controversial things.
That's how it is in the state.
It is a extremely loud minorityof people who are attacking
public education, while 90% ofus are on board and supporting
our teachers.
Mike Journee (18:11):
Well, then, let's move on to a voucher bill that
was introduced this week by bySenator Tammy Nichols from
Middleton, AZ as is typical withvoucher proponents, this bill
has a very benign moniker of aof an education savings account.
But we all know them asvouchers. And this is modeled
after Arizona's universaleducation savings account that
(18:35):
they put in place that has kindof taken on a life of its own
down there and become quitecontroversial as well. So Chris,
you know, she says that this isgoing to have an estimated price
tag of about $20 million of use.
you're skeptical that tell uswhy.
Chris Parri (18:54):
So there's, um scuttled for for a few reasons.
So a, I think the fiscal note isonly counting people who would
be taking advantage of the thevoucher for private schools that
are already in public school.
Mike Journee (19:09):
So people who would leave public schools to go
to a private school resulted,right
Chris Parri (19:13):
so she's estimating that that would cost 20 million
for the folks that are in publicschools that want to take their
money out and put it intoprivate school tuition. What
we've seen in every state thathas passed, this is a plethora
of people taking advantage ofthis who have never encountered
the public education system atall. So in Arizona, for example,
80% of the people taking thevouchers down there have never
(19:35):
been in a public school. Theywere already attending a public
school or private school, I'msorry, or a parochial school, or
they were being homeschooled.
The other really questionablepiece of this is that since we
we don't regulate home schoolsand private schools in Idaho at
all, we have no idea how manyhomeschool students actually are
in Idaho. We know there's around15,000 Probably more than that
in private school. So those arepeople that we should probably
(19:57):
be accounting for. I mean, if Iif I had my kids in private
school, I would definitely betaking a voucher to help pay for
it. Tuition is expensive? Ofcourse I would. So there's those
folks that I think would impactthe cost of this that are not
currently being accounted inthat $20 million number that she
presented, and the homeschoolfolks who are also eligible for
these funds to go towards theireducation. We have no idea how
(20:19):
many how many homeschoolstudents there are in the state.
There's estimates out there butagain, since we, you know, the
we aren't regulating them orasking them how to report back
to us. We have no idea how muchthis could end up costing.
Mike Journee (20:34):
So your guess is she's she's low balling this
number is borne out by what'shappening in Arizona right now.
Right. Talk to us about that alittle bit. Yeah. So
Chris Parri (20:41):
I'll have to check on the budget numbers to get the
exact amount but I think theyare there. They're ESA voucher
system down there is over budgetby over $300 million dollars,
which is a lot to say the least.
And
Mike Journee (20:57):
and they're pulling that money from public
school classrooms to pay forthat. That's exactly
Chris Parri (21:01):
right. Yeah. So you end up cutting public school
funds. I think down there,they're looking some some
politicians are thinking aboutcutting public school funding in
Arizona by 17% to help fund theballooning costs of their
voucher program that servesmaybe 10% of the students in
that state.
Paul Stark (21:20):
Unfortunately, too, you know, what gets cut tends to
be like Career, TechnicalEducation, and some of those
really important, especially forour rural communities. Those are
some of the first to get cut.
When the and we've seen that,you know, in it sounds like
Chris him Is it safe to say thatthis is like a massive windfall
for the for, you know, wealthyurban people who are sending
their kids to private schools.
(21:41):
And anyway, it's just a it'sjust a giveaway to them, isn't
it? That's certainly
Chris Parri (21:46):
like, so I think the big windfall is for the
people who are the billionaireswho are funding this right, like
the folks who have who profitoff of these massive kind of
corporations that helped themprivate schools, not a lot of
the private schools in Idahocurrently are like that a lot of
them are Idaho owned Idahogrown. Same, but it's
Mike Journee (22:07):
not just private schools. It's also platforms for
for homeschooling, its platformsfor online schooling. It's all
those things that these arecorporations, that's right, that
that put these things together,and are selling them to states
when the when the voucherprograms, nor
Chris Parri (22:25):
can I so the big windfall is our folks that will
own and operate these privateschools and getting now getting
taxpayer funds being able toraise their tuition by almost
exactly the amount of thevoucher to continue to serve the
students that they want toserve. In essence, this bill is
not school choice for parents atschool choice for private
schools.
Paul Stark (22:44):
You can contrast that also can't do with Governor
littles empowering parentsgrant, which really is focused
on those that are lowest incomethat really need the assistance.
And that that seems to be likean Idaho way of doing things is
that hey, look, if someonereally needs assistance, or
getting the money where it needsto go, I'd see those two is like
(23:04):
night and day diff.
Mike Journee (23:05):
And that's and that's what the the governor's
staff who've been testifying inthese in these education
committees have been saying,that's what the superintendent
superintendent has been saying.
In fact, early on in thesession, during the education
committee hearing, she was askedspecifically about so called ESA
education savings accounts. Andshe immediately labeled a
voucher and said she can'tsupport it. That's right. So,
(23:27):
you know, it's great for ourmembers to hear and to
understand that these importantpolicymakers are standing with
them on this on this importantissue.
Paul Stark (23:37):
And the imperiling parents grant has stat
accountability lever, that itreally has been a hallmark of
the Idaho legislature for over adecade about funding needs
accountability to go with it.
But as far as I can tell, therereally is no accountability
mechanism in the Nichols voucherbill.
Chris Parri (23:55):
It's it's completely unaccountable.
There's nothing in here toreport back to taxpayers and
taxpayers have an obligation. Imean, I think that as a
taxpayer, I am entitled to knowwhere my tax dollars are going
and whether or not it'seffective, right. That's why you
hear from public schools sooften about test scores and
trends and all this other goodstuff. Because we have
(24:16):
accountability built into it. Wehave accountability and in the
charter school system as well,which is why a whole bunch of
charter school people are comingout actually against this to
they're saying this, we have noidea if the funding that is
going to go into this isactually going to benefit any
student.
Paul Stark (24:30):
And isn't there some hilarious part of the nickels
voucher bill that is somethinglike the voucher could also be
taken to use for college. Yeah.
Like it's yours
Chris Parri (24:39):
to be that way. It seems to be a bullet point that
says you can use it for postsecondary institutions. And I
was like,
Mike Journee (24:45):
probably a leftover from another state or
That's exactly right. So I mean,that's that's exactly what we're
talking about. And I think oneof the more interesting things
and this is another phrase thatBoucher proponents like to say
is let's look at this the moneyfollow the student right. And
Paul that complete He ignoresthe notion that you take that
money out of a public schoolclassroom, they still at school
(25:05):
still has to pay that teacher,they still have to pay the the
education support professionals,they still have to pay the bus
drivers in the end, and theyhave to pay for the buildings,
they have to do all the thingsthat they normally do anyway,
without that money.
Paul Stark (25:18):
That's exactly right. You know, this is what
anybody who's run a home budgetwould know this, there's things
called fixed costs, and you'llhear you have to heat your
house, whether you have 10 kidsin the house or one kid in the
house, you still got to heat thehouse, and that heats gonna cost
exactly the same. Every schooldistrict deals with fixed cost.
And you have to have a teacherin the front front of the
classroom. And it's not like, ifyou raid a, you know, a school
(25:43):
district and you you take away,you know, 20% of their students,
that somehow now they somehowsave costs on teachers. In fact,
we've seen in other states thata lot of these private schools,
they won't take English languagelearners, they won't take
special ed students, you know,they won't take those that are
very resource demanding, andrightfully so. But with public
(26:07):
education, we educate everyonethat is that is the noblest
thing we can ever say is that weeducate everyone. And these
private schools, guess what theydon't,
Chris Parri (26:18):
they can discriminate. And they do that
one of my favorite kind of likelittle images of that is the
idea. So I grew up in ruralIdaho, the idea of like a
student being miles and milesaway from the school, and still
a bus driver will pick them upevery day, and take them to
school, and we aren't going toleave that kid out there. You
know, I think that that is sucha like, wonderful and noble
(26:39):
thing that is speaking to thethe the values of taxpayers in
Idaho, who are setting up theseobligations to, you know, pick
up every kid, hate every school,make every school safe for every
kid, right? Like, I love thatidea. And to see these attacks
on the public school systemcoming after those kind of
values, is I can get prettyfired up.
Mike Journee (27:01):
You guys are doing a great job kind of going
through the tick list of all thereasons why vouchers are such a
bad idea for not any for anypublic school system. But one of
the things that that thesuperintendents Chief of Staff
was talking about in publichearing earlier this week was I
was already a leader and thegovernor mentioned this to
Idaho's already a leader in inchoice in public schools, all
(27:22):
the different options that idealfamilies have within public
schools, whether it's gifted andtalented, whether it's online,
whether it's it's a charterschool, all those options are
exist within the public schoolsystem as it is and a better
funding formula for for Idahopublic education would would
(27:43):
probably improve that.
Paul Stark (27:44):
You know, it's, it's, a lot of the proponents of
vouchers, try to cloak it inparental choice, school choice.
Choice, you know, becauseeveryone is pro choice. And in
frankly, the IEA is pro choice.
If a if a if a parent wants tosend there someone wants to send
their child to homeschool orwhatever, they have that choice,
it's very clear, there's nodoubt about that. What we're
(28:06):
talking about, and let's beblunt about this, what we're
talking about is who pays forthat choice. That's what they
want. They want every taxpayerin the state of Idaho to pay for
their choice to send them to,you know, a very expensive
private school, a school that isout of reach, probably for 97%
of all of Idaho, or maybe evenclose to it and is
Mike Journee (28:29):
not and has absolutely zero oversight or
recourse for taxpayers as well.
There's no elected officialsinvolved in running those
schools. There's no electedofficials involved in setting
standards for those schools atall, unlike public schools,
which, from Bell to bell,everything that happens in a
public school is overseen by anelected official somewhere.
Paul Stark (28:50):
And where else in society do we see such a blank
check? You know that we justgive you a blank check without
any accountability, and it andit's on the taxpayers wallet
that this happens. You know, theother thing too, that we haven't
talked about as most of theseprivate schools, and I know
nearly all of them are in just acouple urban areas. You know,
this does nothing for our ruraldistricts or even our semi rural
(29:13):
districts. This is entirely anurban issue. And our rural
districts are going to be payingthe price for that very
expensive dinner.
Chris Parri (29:22):
And the we can follow this all the way back to
the issues with with propertytax payers in different areas,
voting every year to taxthemselves to help support their
local public schools. As Paulmentioned, a lot of these these
private schools and parochialschools are in very populated
counties in Idaho. So a lot inthe Treasure Valley down here. A
(29:46):
couple up in quarter lane, TwinFalls, Idaho Falls those areas.
Other there's 20 counties inIdaho that have zero private
schools or parochial schooloptions. Were there a portion of
the The funding that thoseschools, school districts will
get will instead be going tofund these vouchers. That means
(30:07):
that those schools are going toget less funds, no choice out of
it, quote, unquote, and have tovote again and again,
continually like they are in ourchronically underfunded
education space to keep thelights on.
Paul Stark (30:22):
So you're thinking even greater increase in levies?
Right and in bonds in order tosupport the local school in
rural districts. Thus, doesn'tthat just Chris, doesn't that
just mean more burden onproperty taxes at
Chris Parri (30:36):
a time and we know how important property tax
reform is to the vast majorityof legislators in that building?
So to see people kind ofthinking that school choice is
the answer somehow to aneducation problem, you're just
creating a litany of massiveother problems down the road
related to accountability,ballooning budgets, and not even
(30:56):
and then state taking stepsbackwards on property taxes.
Well, it's a fascinating lookat.
Mike Journee (31:04):
I want to change topics a little bit, guys, and
talk a little bit about IEA.
Local lobby days. Local lobbydays are an opportunity for our
our local chapters, to bringtheir members to the legislature
and talk about the issues thatare important to them. On
January 23, we had the West ADAEducation Association, come over
and talk to lawmakers. And wehad and I had an opportunity to
(31:27):
talk with one of the members,Tara Bastian, she's a member
from Mountain View High School,and she teaches English and
theater out there in Meridian.
And she wanted to she told me alittle bit about her
conversation with RepresentativeChris awlgrip, from Caldwell,
(31:48):
about the need to pay oureducation support professionals
a little bit better. It'ssomething that we were just
talking about. And I wanted togive this give you this
perspective through her clip.
Unknown (31:58):
I think he was really interested in hearing where we
are with classified staff andhow they're, you know, they're
getting paid maybe $14 an hourwhen they can go get 18 at
McDonald's. They have beenreally receptive and
understanding that thechallenges it presents when we
don't have classified staff tosupport us in the classroom with
(32:19):
our students who may have realneeds that can disrupt a
classroom. And so they'restarting to understand that
disruption to the classroom inthe learning environment, it is
when we do not have classifiedstaff. Now, guys,
Mike Journee (32:33):
I thought that was really great that that we're
starting to hear that lawmakersare understanding this challenge
that that's facing our membersall across the state. And looks
like, you know, the governor'sproposals for better pay for
education support professionalsis going to is on good legs. And
(32:53):
it's really good to hear thoseconversations happening from our
members. And I gotta say, Ithink a lot of that has to do
with the fact that our membershave been in the building
talking to lawmakers about that,Chris,
Chris Parri (33:02):
yeah, that one of the most common stories that
legislators were hearing when wehad our big lobby day and then
also during West ADA is LobbyDay. And as a note, I'm
extremely excited for theselocal lobby days for a litany of
reasons but for classifiedstaff, I think that one of the
one of the most common storieswe've been hearing is that there
(33:22):
are just not enough classifiedstaff in the building. And they
are wearing so many hats, justlike the educators are that they
are, you know, of course,there's a lot of burnout and
some other things, but they'rejust doing as best as they can
while doing a million jobs thathave gone unfilled. And, you
know, with behavioral issues andmental issues in classrooms on
(33:45):
the rise are spiking after theCOVID pandemic. I think it's
really important that we haveenough enough folks in those
rooms to support our educatorsand administrators to there's a
united front on educationstakeholders on supporting
classified staff and ensuringthat we can attract and retain
qualified, classified staffacross the state from
superintendents all the way tothe classified staff themselves.
(34:08):
So
Mike Journee (34:09):
well, and you know, we've touched on it
briefly about the facilities,the huge deficit in school
facility maintenance andreplacement did kind of come up
this week. And the office ofperformance evaluations
presented its findings from aJanuary 2022 report that showing
the state state's kind oflaissez faire attitude about
school buildings has created aproblem. And that's something
(34:31):
our members have been talkingabout as well. I've got another
clip here from Tara again, whereshe's talking she's talking
about that.
Unknown (34:39):
There has been conversation about around
funding for facilities, which isa really good and valuable
conversation, especially in ourarea in West data where you
know, we're over capacity andour buildings and we're still
growing basketball. We're thefastest still the fastest
growing I think what number inthe top five of the fastest
growing now We went down fromnumber one to like number five,
(35:03):
you know, so, but we're stillgrowing, they're still coming
in, we're still selling homes,and those homes have two to
three children each. And thosekids need to be educated. Right.
And we we have a mandate by thestate to educate them.
Mike Journee (35:17):
So Chris, you know, with an estimated budget
surplus of $1.5 billion, andthat's on top of the tax breaks
that have already happened toSeptember, on top of the
investment that we've made ineducation, we still think
there's another $1.5 billiondollars in available. Do you
think this is this issue isgoing to ripen this year? It
(35:41):
sounds like from what I washearing from the committee
hearings today that lawmakersare interested.
Chris Parri (35:45):
Yeah. So Chairman daveland, of the Senate
Education Committee, mentionedthat his members on that
committee can expect to see somelegislation about school
facilities this year, which isreally exciting. I'm excited for
us to start tackling this issue.
But the gap is huge. So in thosepresentations that you
mentioned, Mike, the just to getof the schools surveyed, which
(36:08):
was not all of the schools inthe state, it was around 77
school school districts. Theyestimated cost $894 million to
get us up to with schoolfacilities up to good condition.
So just good operating conditionfor all the schools in those
districts, which is not thebest, right, there's another
(36:31):
there's another tear, and that'sthe perfect condition. But we
can hope to get the good and itwill cost $800 million, if not
more than that. across thestate. So
Paul Stark (36:44):
it's good, I think at this point to applaud our
legislators that are finallypaying attention. There's so
many, so many years, it was justa blind eye to this. And it's
not that people weren't talkingabout it. They just didn't care
to hear it. And it's such a youknow, hats off to our current
state house right now, that isactually listening. And those
(37:04):
that are listening and hearingthat this needs to
Mike Journee (37:07):
end you want to talk about property tax reform.
Right. There you go. Right.
Well, guys, I think we've runout of time. And I want to thank
you all for the conversationtoday about the first couple of
weeks of legislative session.
Chris, I think we're gonna we'regonna see that bathroom bill
come up. Next week, most likely,we'll probably see some more
more ideas from coming from avariety of of lawmakers around
(37:30):
about about education policy. SoI look forward to having those
conversations with you guysthen, and thanks for joining me.
Chris Parri (37:36):
Thanks, Mike. Yeah, thanks, mate.
Mike Journee (37:38):
Thank you for listening to Idaho education
Association's hotline podcast,and this discussion about the
early weeks of 2023 Idaholegislature. Thanks as well to
my colleague, Chris Perry, andPaul Stark for joining me.
Please watch for future updatesabout new episodes on IEA social
media channels or sign up foremail updates on our website at
Idaho eaa.org. I'm Mike journee.
And as always, I hope you joinme in thanking Idaho's public
(38:02):
school educators for everythingthey do for our State students,
families, and public schools.
Welcome to Idaho education Association's
hotline podcast, a weeklydiscussion about what's
happening at the legislaturearound public education, and the
policy priorities of iesmembers. I EAA members or public
school educators from all overthe state. There Idaho's most
important education experts, andthey use their influence to
fight for a free quality andequitable public education for
(00:32):
every student in the state. I'mMike journee, communications
director at the IEA and I'll beyour host for this episode of
hotline.
Mike Journee (00:40):
Today we discuss the first three weeks of the
Idaho legislature is 2023session. Since our last episode,
there's been quite a bit ofaction around education at the
statehouse, as those with a widevariety of perspectives about
public education, begin bringingtheir proposals forward. joining
me for today's conversation, ouries political director, Chris
Perry, and IEA ExecutiveDirector, Paul Stark. Well,
(01:02):
Chris Paul, thanks for joiningme today and having this
conversation about the firstcouple of weeks of the
legislature. And, you know, it'sbeen a busy few weeks. But I
really don't think there's beenany huge surprises. So far,
we've kind of seen what wethought we're going to see from
certain corners of thelegislature. We know that the
governor's budget bills aregoing to be coming later in the
year all the good news foreducators. In the meantime,
(01:22):
we've got some policy debatesthat are happening. We've seen
some voucher legislation comeforward from legislators that we
thought were going to push offyour bills. You know, one of the
most surprising things, I thinkwe really had a robust
discussion this week around theneed for the school, or for the
state to get involved more inschool building school
(01:43):
facilities and the discussionaround that. So that's going to
be something that we will wantto keep an eye on. But before we
get into that, Chris, you and Ihave had a couple of
conversations this week aboutabout the interesting dynamics
around the different factionsthat seem to be aligning the
session around education, andthe folks that that want to
influence education policies.
And I just wanted you to talk alittle bit about that before we
(02:05):
kind of get going into the nittygritty of the of the bills that
have been coming forward.
Chris Parri (02:10):
Yeah, the makeup of the legislature, we knew it was
going to change quite a bit,there was a ton of turnover.
What is it 40 Something percentare brand new legislators this
time around after redistricting.
So what has kind of crystallizedin the legislature has been kind
of three groups when it comes topublic education policy, I'd say
one group is kind of justideologically and sort of
(02:34):
emotionally connected to theidea of of destroying public
education as an entire concept.
There's not a lot going on underthere, except for just a
complete drive to do that. Andso they're linking public
education to all of theconspiracy theories that we've
seen over the past couple ofyears, be it three letter
(02:54):
acronyms like SEO and CRT.
You know, stuff about LGBTQ plusstudents. You name it. They're
trying to slander publiceducation to meet that goal of
eroding it as a institution inAmerica. Really?
Paul Stark (03:11):
Can I jump in real to Chris, you know, it seems
like to they're, they'reinterested in like, kind of
social issue fights, they're notit doesn't seem like that
faction is really interested inlike, putting anything forward
that is constructive to policyor to building you know, the
constitutional mandate foreducation. So it seems like it's
(03:33):
a lot of Destructo and quite abit less like building the barn.
Chris Parri (03:37):
Totally. And like fishing around for things that
kind of, like impact people onsocial issues, right. So they
can kind of get out they callthose dog whistles. I think so.
Yes. dog whistles. That's kindof the culture wars. That's
yeah, that's right.
Mike Journee (03:51):
And I guess I will just since since Paul jumped in,
I want to jump into and justkind of make a quick plug for a
story that's out there that wasposted today on the website of
the Idaho Capitol sun. And it'san extraordinary fine piece of
journalism from from a reporternamed Kelsey Mosley Morris,
where she takes a really deepdive into the dark money
(04:12):
interest behind vouchers behindsupposedly so called school
choice. And, and and thenational campaign that's ongoing
around in states across thecountry, including Idaho to
bring to get a toehold forvouchers. They've been
successful in other states.
We're going to talk about that alittle bit here. It's special in
Arizona. And but but I wouldhighly encourage folks to go and
(04:35):
take a look at that story on theIdaho Capitol son website. It's
an extraordinary piece of work.
So
Chris Parri (04:41):
yeah, so good. Oh, yeah.
Paul Stark (04:42):
Before Paul. Yeah.
In that to the legislation thatwe saw on vouchers is actually
basically a cut and paste from anational warehouse of policy
writers that write thingsnationally. It's not Idaho. It
doesn't it wasn't born here inIdaho. Believe me. It was born
somewhere in New York City orCincinnati are similar. And what
we're doing is we're seeing thisthis kind of cut and paste
(05:04):
foreign policy being imposedupon Idaho where is
traditionally we've seeneducation policy drafted by
Idahoans for the needs of Idaho.
It's not this kind of national,right. And
Chris Parri (05:16):
the folks that are carrying it are folks from my
group I mentioned, it's thatgroup of people who are
ideologically dedicated to justbe against public education. And
this is how they're trying tochisel at it this year. And
probably next year, I'm probablya year after who knows. But what
I found really interesting. SoPaul mentioned how this is model
policy. Basically, it's beingpassed around by these dark
money groups, who are funded bybillionaires and massive
(05:39):
corporations. And they are it'sjust mimicry across the nation
as far as these bills go. Andcontrasting that to what
Governor little said at ourLobby Day dinner when he was
there, where he talked about howhe had studied education systems
in other states, and sees whysometimes something might work
in one state versus anotherstate. And he's being very
(06:01):
nuanced about what would work inIdaho, particularly when it
comes to school choice andhaving a public framework for
school choice that actuallymakes sense for Idahoans not
just copy and pasting a policyfrom Arizona, which has a copy
and paste policy from, you know,Wisconsin or something like
that. So I found that it's justsuch an amazing contrast to me
to have folks be focused onIdaho first policy, like the
(06:23):
governor, versus, you know, copyand paste policy,
Paul Stark (06:27):
and the governor and the governor's hearing from
Idaho educators on the groundIdaho educators, whereas the
other hot side they're hearingfrom Betsy DeVos is lead
lobbyist, you know, those aretwo very different voices and
coming from two very differentplaces. That's right,
Mike Journee (06:44):
bring it back full circle to where we started with,
with these three groups, Chris,and we thought we've got this,
this this, what I'm going tocall the the enemies of public
education group, honestly, Imean, there's just really
there's no other label you canput on them that doesn't that
and they're they're not evergoing to see things the way that
our members do. That's right.
Yeah. So continue with your withyour
Chris Parri (07:06):
shirt. Yeah. So then, okay, so we could talk
about that third group forever.
But luckily, they are a, asmall, tiny, loud minority in
the legislature. The next group,I wanted to chat about kind of,
at the, in the core of some ofthese discussions is this group
that is well meaning, and thatwe agree with on some things,
but kind of get, they havemisguided alliances, sometimes
particularly on school choice,because at the core of school
(07:28):
choice is some you know, they'llhear about it all over the place
in media as a good idea. Andthere's there's a whole media
structure dedicated to pushingthe idea that vouchers are a
good idea, funded by the samepeople we were just talking
about funded by the exactlyfunded by the same groups that
we were just talking about.
There's a whole media spherededicated the idea that vouchers
(07:49):
are a good idea, not just forstudents that are going to
private, and parochial and homeschools, but for public schools,
as well. And so you'll hearsometimes in the statehouse,
from this group of people whobelieve vouchers will improve
public education, when we allknow our members will know. And
we have all of our data thatsays, of course it doesn't. And
(08:09):
so that group is a group that Istill enjoy talking to and
trying to get convinced onto ourside of things and are movable
on on issues, because again,they they their heart is in the
right place, if even if they'vebeen misguided. Down the voucher
path, I guess we could say. Andthen finally, we get to the bulk
of the legislature, I think themajority of the legislature in
(08:31):
both chambers, who are dedicatedto public education, they see
how hard our educators work.
They resist these efforts todismantle public education.
They're looking for innovative,what innovative ways to to make
public education work for Idahoand make school choice work for
Idaho, if you want to use theterm school choice for these
different kinds of publicoptions that are presented to
(08:52):
parents voucher schools up toabout your Yeah, that's right.
Yeah. So the bulk of thelegislature agrees that we want
a strong and effective publiceducation system in Idaho that
serves all students isaccountable to taxpayers, all of
the things that you don't getwith vouchers. So as this is
materializing, it's becomingclear that we do have a very
(09:13):
strong piece of the legislaturethat wants to defend public
education, and we're workingwith them. And hand in hand, and
thankfully, I
Mike Journee (09:22):
think that includes the chairpersons of
both education committees, inspite of one committee being a
challenge for us, and as well asthe Governor as well, the
governor is squarely in in thatside of things. And so I think
that that bodes well for ourmembers and for the policy
initiatives that they're thatwe're bringing forward. So
Paul Stark (09:38):
can I make a quick point and that is, and this is
on a previous podcast as well.
But let's not forget that everyone of those legislators took an
oath to be pro public education.
And the reason I say that isbecause they took an oath to
uphold the Idaho constitution,and the Idaho constitution is
unequivocal in its support ofpublic education in the
(09:59):
requirement It's not adiscretionary matter, it is
required constitutionallyrequired. And yet we see those
that took that oath that areworking towards destroying what
the Constitution requires,
Mike Journee (10:11):
and even passing legislation to amend the
Constitution just to get theirparticular policy piece through,
which probably is a good segueto some of the stuff you want to
talk about Mike, one of the moreblatant places that we kind of
see this dynamic at play isprobably in the Senate Education
Committee. And that's where wesaw legislation come forward
this week, and two differentpieces of legislation come
(10:34):
forward, the first being aconstitutional amendment, where
the this lawmaker, Brian Lenniefrom Nampa, he wants to
eliminate a clause of the Idahoconstitution that supposedly
prohibits public money frombeing used on religious private
(10:57):
education. And, and so thatthat's one that's come forward
this week. He came forward onMonday and, Paul to tell us a
little bit about the backgroundof the so called Blaine
Amendment. And, and, and how wekind of got here around this
this topic. Yeah, blade
Paul Stark (11:13):
amendment is a misnomer. I mean, it's easy to
call it a blade meme and peopleknow what you're talking about.
It's actually a no gift clauseis what the more proper way to
call it Blaine have was asenator, US senator, who wanted
this to be part of every newstate that as they join the
union, that they would have tohave a certain provision there
that says you can't give publicdollars over to religious
(11:34):
schools. And it didn't goanywhere on the federal level.
But nonetheless, a lot of statesadopted such policies on their
own, and Idaho was one of them.
In the in the early days ofIdaho at 90 when the
Constitution was adopted here inIdaho, there was a no gift
clause and then basically said,Hey, we're not going to use any
state dollars to supportreligions. And it talks about
(11:54):
religious schools as well. Andthis is the classic church,
separation of church and statekind of thing. And I think most
of our listeners will understandwhat that means. So that Blaine
Amendment is out there, therewas a US Supreme Court case that
I think is largely misunderstoodby many of the proponents of
vouchers, and that is this caseof Espinosa versus Montana. That
(12:15):
case comes from an individualwho received a scholarship in
Montana, and took thatscholarship been tempted to use
it at a private religiousschool. Montana, like Idaho had
had their version of a no aidclause in their constitution and
the Montana Supreme Court ruledit unconstitutional. It was then
appealed to the US Supreme Courtthat ruled that the no aid
(12:39):
clause was unconstitutional, butit's not the way that it's been
spun. And this is a crucialdifference. The US Supreme Court
did not say that statelegislatures or state had, you
know, governments had to fundprivate education, nothing even
close to that and and that's theway it's been spun is oh, well
Espinosa. So we can go ahead andfund private schools, it did not
(13:01):
say that. What Espinosa standsfor is you cannot discriminate
on the basis of religion. That'sall it says. And in these no aid
clauses to the extent Montana'ssaid that you can't send this to
a religious school, the SupremeCourt said, if you're going to
fund private education, then youonce you do that, you can't
(13:24):
discriminate based upon it beinga religious school versus a non
religious school. That's allthat they said. They did not say
we had to fund private educationor the doors flung open for
private education. And indeed,the legislature is well within
their discretion to say we'renot going to find private
schools. Going to SenatorLenny's constitutional amendment
(13:46):
getting back to that, honestly,the best thing that I could do
is amend the no aid clause, theBlaine Amendment that we have in
our constitution to say that nomoney will flow to private
schools, period. Yeah, I get it.
Let's take out the religiousdiscrimination. You know, I'm I
understand that is the law ofthe land now. And it was
reaffirmed in another case,Carson, coming out of the state
(14:08):
of Maine. So I don't have anyproblem personally was saying,
let's take out the religionqualifier in there. But what we
should say is no taxpayerdollars should fund private
education, because it's justplumb not our constitutional
mandate.
Mike Journee (14:24):
Right. And, and this is moving forward, the,
from what I understand 37 or 50states have this clause in their
state constitutions as a resultof that, that national that
national effort, kind of goingforward. This needs two thirds
to happen in in both houses ofthe legislature then a majority
in order for it to actually gothrough to the Constitution. A
(14:47):
majority of voters in the in thenext statewide election have to
approve it. So this wasintroduced last Monday, Chris,
do you have any idea about whenthis is going to come forward
and when Paul's gonna be out?
We'll make these points about itwhen he testifies, it's
Chris Parri (15:02):
a extremely contentious idea to break open
the Constitution and startplaying with things in there. As
Paul mentioned, all of thelegislators took an oath to the
Constitution as it is. So it'sgoing to be a tall order, I
think, to get particularly twothirds of the legislature, let
alone a majority, I thinkthey're both tall orders on this
(15:24):
one. I don't even know if it'sgoing to get a hearing in
whatever committee they try andrun it through, because it is
such a contentious and kind ofharebrained idea to really go
after this, right. Like, likePaul mentioned, if a voucher
bill were to pass, and suddenlyyou started opening up a whole
bunch of funds that go to the goto private schools, the that's
(15:46):
kind of when people would havestanding to kind of start suing
the state if they if they reallywanted to use this money for a
parochial school or somethinglike that. So this seems to be
to me to be sort of a alegislator, looking at the
Constitution, identifying piecesof it, that he wishes were out
of there, and then trying topush it through himself. And I
don't see a whole bunch ofpeople kind of lining up behind
(16:08):
them for this one. I think it'sa nonstarter than I would be
surprised to see it ever hit theHouse or Senate floor, but I
have been certainly wrong in thepast. So we will see
Paul Stark (16:17):
Chris my right that the some of the polling that
we've looked at show that thethe citizens of Idaho have no
appetite for sending taxpayerdollars to private schools
because of religious orsectarian we, we were not
looking even amongst likelyRepublican primary voters.
There's really not an appetite,there's so much higher
priorities, like let's get somemoney to our rural schools where
(16:40):
they're really hurting. Andlet's get our classified
employees back on board. Youknow, I saw a report yesterday
that Idaho is 49 out of 51 forpay for classified or what we
call ESP education supportpersonnel that they this these
are the individuals in ourschools that really make things
(17:01):
work and allow educators toexcel and really allow learning
to blossom. And yet we're 49thin the nation. So I applaud
Governor little for trying tomake some efforts in that
regard.
Chris Parri (17:10):
Yeah, so the the polling that we have on that
says that only 18% of Idahoansprioritize sending taxpayer
money or allowing taxpayer fundsto go towards private school
tuition, compared to upwards of90% which is like shocking,
you'll hardly ever see that inpolls. And upwards of 90% who
support paying teachers a fairsalary and paying classified
(17:35):
staff a living wage so they canstick around. It's it blows
vouchers out of the water as faras where voucher voters are
prioritizing issue these issues.
Paul Stark (17:43):
So is it safe to say that anybody listening this
podcast should rest assured thepublic in Idaho continually as
they have support publiceducation? Absolutely,
Chris Parri (17:52):
just like you see in the legislature and extremely
loud minority pushing a lot ofthese controversial things.
That's how it is in the state.
It is a extremely loud minorityof people who are attacking
public education, while 90% ofus are on board and supporting
our teachers.
Mike Journee (18:11):
Well, then, let's move on to a voucher bill that
was introduced this week by bySenator Tammy Nichols from
Middleton, AZ as is typical withvoucher proponents, this bill
has a very benign moniker of aof an education savings account.
But we all know them asvouchers. And this is modeled
after Arizona's universaleducation savings account that
(18:35):
they put in place that has kindof taken on a life of its own
down there and become quitecontroversial as well. So Chris,
you know, she says that this isgoing to have an estimated price
tag of about $20 million of use.
you're skeptical that tell uswhy.
Chris Parri (18:54):
So there's, um scuttled for for a few reasons.
So a, I think the fiscal note isonly counting people who would
be taking advantage of the thevoucher for private schools that
are already in public school.
Mike Journee (19:09):
So people who would leave public schools to go
to a private school resulted,right
Chris Parri (19:13):
so she's estimating that that would cost 20 million
for the folks that are in publicschools that want to take their
money out and put it intoprivate school tuition. What
we've seen in every state thathas passed, this is a plethora
of people taking advantage ofthis who have never encountered
the public education system atall. So in Arizona, for example,
80% of the people taking thevouchers down there have never
(19:35):
been in a public school. Theywere already attending a public
school or private school, I'msorry, or a parochial school, or
they were being homeschooled.
The other really questionablepiece of this is that since we
we don't regulate home schoolsand private schools in Idaho at
all, we have no idea how manyhomeschool students actually are
in Idaho. We know there's around15,000 Probably more than that
in private school. So those arepeople that we should probably
(19:57):
be accounting for. I mean, if Iif I had my kids in private
school, I would definitely betaking a voucher to help pay for
it. Tuition is expensive? Ofcourse I would. So there's those
folks that I think would impactthe cost of this that are not
currently being accounted inthat $20 million number that she
presented, and the homeschoolfolks who are also eligible for
these funds to go towards theireducation. We have no idea how
(20:19):
many how many homeschoolstudents there are in the state.
There's estimates out there butagain, since we, you know, the
we aren't regulating them orasking them how to report back
to us. We have no idea how muchthis could end up costing.
Mike Journee (20:34):
So your guess is she's she's low balling this
number is borne out by what'shappening in Arizona right now.
Right. Talk to us about that alittle bit. Yeah. So
Chris Parri (20:41):
I'll have to check on the budget numbers to get the
exact amount but I think theyare there. They're ESA voucher
system down there is over budgetby over $300 million dollars,
which is a lot to say the least.
And
Mike Journee (20:57):
and they're pulling that money from public
school classrooms to pay forthat. That's exactly
Chris Parri (21:01):
right. Yeah. So you end up cutting public school
funds. I think down there,they're looking some some
politicians are thinking aboutcutting public school funding in
Arizona by 17% to help fund theballooning costs of their
voucher program that servesmaybe 10% of the students in
that state.
Paul Stark (21:20):
Unfortunately, too, you know, what gets cut tends to
be like Career, TechnicalEducation, and some of those
really important, especially forour rural communities. Those are
some of the first to get cut.
When the and we've seen that,you know, in it sounds like
Chris him Is it safe to say thatthis is like a massive windfall
for the for, you know, wealthyurban people who are sending
their kids to private schools.
(21:41):
And anyway, it's just a it'sjust a giveaway to them, isn't
it? That's certainly
Chris Parri (21:46):
like, so I think the big windfall is for the
people who are the billionaireswho are funding this right, like
the folks who have who profitoff of these massive kind of
corporations that helped themprivate schools, not a lot of
the private schools in Idahocurrently are like that a lot of
them are Idaho owned Idahogrown. Same, but it's
Mike Journee (22:07):
not just private schools. It's also platforms for
for homeschooling, its platformsfor online schooling. It's all
those things that these arecorporations, that's right, that
that put these things together,and are selling them to states
when the when the voucherprograms, nor
Chris Parri (22:25):
can I so the big windfall is our folks that will
own and operate these privateschools and getting now getting
taxpayer funds being able toraise their tuition by almost
exactly the amount of thevoucher to continue to serve the
students that they want toserve. In essence, this bill is
not school choice for parents atschool choice for private
schools.
Paul Stark (22:44):
You can contrast that also can't do with Governor
littles empowering parentsgrant, which really is focused
on those that are lowest incomethat really need the assistance.
And that that seems to be likean Idaho way of doing things is
that hey, look, if someonereally needs assistance, or
getting the money where it needsto go, I'd see those two is like
(23:04):
night and day diff.
Mike Journee (23:05):
And that's and that's what the the governor's
staff who've been testifying inthese in these education
committees have been saying,that's what the superintendent
superintendent has been saying.
In fact, early on in thesession, during the education
committee hearing, she was askedspecifically about so called ESA
education savings accounts. Andshe immediately labeled a
voucher and said she can'tsupport it. That's right. So,
(23:27):
you know, it's great for ourmembers to hear and to
understand that these importantpolicymakers are standing with
them on this on this importantissue.
Paul Stark (23:37):
And the imperiling parents grant has stat
accountability lever, that itreally has been a hallmark of
the Idaho legislature for over adecade about funding needs
accountability to go with it.
But as far as I can tell, therereally is no accountability
mechanism in the Nichols voucherbill.
Chris Parri (23:55):
It's it's completely unaccountable.
There's nothing in here toreport back to taxpayers and
taxpayers have an obligation. Imean, I think that as a
taxpayer, I am entitled to knowwhere my tax dollars are going
and whether or not it'seffective, right. That's why you
hear from public schools sooften about test scores and
trends and all this other goodstuff. Because we have
(24:16):
accountability built into it. Wehave accountability and in the
charter school system as well,which is why a whole bunch of
charter school people are comingout actually against this to
they're saying this, we have noidea if the funding that is
going to go into this isactually going to benefit any
student.
Paul Stark (24:30):
And isn't there some hilarious part of the nickels
voucher bill that is somethinglike the voucher could also be
taken to use for college. Yeah.
Like it's yours
Chris Parri (24:39):
to be that way. It seems to be a bullet point that
says you can use it for postsecondary institutions. And I
was like,
Mike Journee (24:45):
probably a leftover from another state or
That's exactly right. So I mean,that's that's exactly what we're
talking about. And I think oneof the more interesting things
and this is another phrase thatBoucher proponents like to say
is let's look at this the moneyfollow the student right. And
Paul that complete He ignoresthe notion that you take that
money out of a public schoolclassroom, they still at school
(25:05):
still has to pay that teacher,they still have to pay the the
education support professionals,they still have to pay the bus
drivers in the end, and theyhave to pay for the buildings,
they have to do all the thingsthat they normally do anyway,
without that money.
Paul Stark (25:18):
That's exactly right. You know, this is what
anybody who's run a home budgetwould know this, there's things
called fixed costs, and you'llhear you have to heat your
house, whether you have 10 kidsin the house or one kid in the
house, you still got to heat thehouse, and that heats gonna cost
exactly the same. Every schooldistrict deals with fixed cost.
And you have to have a teacherin the front front of the
classroom. And it's not like, ifyou raid a, you know, a school
(25:43):
district and you you take away,you know, 20% of their students,
that somehow now they somehowsave costs on teachers. In fact,
we've seen in other states thata lot of these private schools,
they won't take English languagelearners, they won't take
special ed students, you know,they won't take those that are
very resource demanding, andrightfully so. But with public
(26:07):
education, we educate everyonethat is that is the noblest
thing we can ever say is that weeducate everyone. And these
private schools, guess what theydon't,
Chris Parri (26:18):
they can discriminate. And they do that
one of my favorite kind of likelittle images of that is the
idea. So I grew up in ruralIdaho, the idea of like a
student being miles and milesaway from the school, and still
a bus driver will pick them upevery day, and take them to
school, and we aren't going toleave that kid out there. You
know, I think that that is sucha like, wonderful and noble
(26:39):
thing that is speaking to thethe the values of taxpayers in
Idaho, who are setting up theseobligations to, you know, pick
up every kid, hate every school,make every school safe for every
kid, right? Like, I love thatidea. And to see these attacks
on the public school systemcoming after those kind of
values, is I can get prettyfired up.
Mike Journee (27:01):
You guys are doing a great job kind of going
through the tick list of all thereasons why vouchers are such a
bad idea for not any for anypublic school system. But one of
the things that that thesuperintendents Chief of Staff
was talking about in publichearing earlier this week was I
was already a leader and thegovernor mentioned this to
Idaho's already a leader in inchoice in public schools, all
(27:22):
the different options that idealfamilies have within public
schools, whether it's gifted andtalented, whether it's online,
whether it's it's a charterschool, all those options are
exist within the public schoolsystem as it is and a better
funding formula for for Idahopublic education would would
(27:43):
probably improve that.
Paul Stark (27:44):
You know, it's, it's, a lot of the proponents of
vouchers, try to cloak it inparental choice, school choice.
Choice, you know, becauseeveryone is pro choice. And in
frankly, the IEA is pro choice.
If a if a if a parent wants tosend there someone wants to send
their child to homeschool orwhatever, they have that choice,
it's very clear, there's nodoubt about that. What we're
(28:06):
talking about, and let's beblunt about this, what we're
talking about is who pays forthat choice. That's what they
want. They want every taxpayerin the state of Idaho to pay for
their choice to send them to,you know, a very expensive
private school, a school that isout of reach, probably for 97%
of all of Idaho, or maybe evenclose to it and is
Mike Journee (28:29):
not and has absolutely zero oversight or
recourse for taxpayers as well.
There's no elected officialsinvolved in running those
schools. There's no electedofficials involved in setting
standards for those schools atall, unlike public schools,
which, from Bell to bell,everything that happens in a
public school is overseen by anelected official somewhere.
Paul Stark (28:50):
And where else in society do we see such a blank
check? You know that we justgive you a blank check without
any accountability, and it andit's on the taxpayers wallet
that this happens. You know, theother thing too, that we haven't
talked about as most of theseprivate schools, and I know
nearly all of them are in just acouple urban areas. You know,
this does nothing for our ruraldistricts or even our semi rural
(29:13):
districts. This is entirely anurban issue. And our rural
districts are going to be payingthe price for that very
expensive dinner.
Chris Parri (29:22):
And the we can follow this all the way back to
the issues with with propertytax payers in different areas,
voting every year to taxthemselves to help support their
local public schools. As Paulmentioned, a lot of these these
private schools and parochialschools are in very populated
counties in Idaho. So a lot inthe Treasure Valley down here. A
(29:46):
couple up in quarter lane, TwinFalls, Idaho Falls those areas.
Other there's 20 counties inIdaho that have zero private
schools or parochial schooloptions. Were there a portion of
the The funding that thoseschools, school districts will
get will instead be going tofund these vouchers. That means
(30:07):
that those schools are going toget less funds, no choice out of
it, quote, unquote, and have tovote again and again,
continually like they are in ourchronically underfunded
education space to keep thelights on.
Paul Stark (30:22):
So you're thinking even greater increase in levies?
Right and in bonds in order tosupport the local school in
rural districts. Thus, doesn'tthat just Chris, doesn't that
just mean more burden onproperty taxes at
Chris Parri (30:36):
a time and we know how important property tax
reform is to the vast majorityof legislators in that building?
So to see people kind ofthinking that school choice is
the answer somehow to aneducation problem, you're just
creating a litany of massiveother problems down the road
related to accountability,ballooning budgets, and not even
(30:56):
and then state taking stepsbackwards on property taxes.
Well, it's a fascinating lookat.
Mike Journee (31:04):
I want to change topics a little bit, guys, and
talk a little bit about IEA.
Local lobby days. Local lobbydays are an opportunity for our
our local chapters, to bringtheir members to the legislature
and talk about the issues thatare important to them. On
January 23, we had the West ADAEducation Association, come over
and talk to lawmakers. And wehad and I had an opportunity to
(31:27):
talk with one of the members,Tara Bastian, she's a member
from Mountain View High School,and she teaches English and
theater out there in Meridian.
And she wanted to she told me alittle bit about her
conversation with RepresentativeChris awlgrip, from Caldwell,
(31:48):
about the need to pay oureducation support professionals
a little bit better. It'ssomething that we were just
talking about. And I wanted togive this give you this
perspective through her clip.
Unknown (31:58):
I think he was really interested in hearing where we
are with classified staff andhow they're, you know, they're
getting paid maybe $14 an hourwhen they can go get 18 at
McDonald's. They have beenreally receptive and
understanding that thechallenges it presents when we
don't have classified staff tosupport us in the classroom with
(32:19):
our students who may have realneeds that can disrupt a
classroom. And so they'restarting to understand that
disruption to the classroom inthe learning environment, it is
when we do not have classifiedstaff. Now, guys,
Mike Journee (32:33):
I thought that was really great that that we're
starting to hear that lawmakersare understanding this challenge
that that's facing our membersall across the state. And looks
like, you know, the governor'sproposals for better pay for
education support professionalsis going to is on good legs. And
(32:53):
it's really good to hear thoseconversations happening from our
members. And I gotta say, Ithink a lot of that has to do
with the fact that our membershave been in the building
talking to lawmakers about that,Chris,
Chris Parri (33:02):
yeah, that one of the most common stories that
legislators were hearing when wehad our big lobby day and then
also during West ADA is LobbyDay. And as a note, I'm
extremely excited for theselocal lobby days for a litany of
reasons but for classifiedstaff, I think that one of the
one of the most common storieswe've been hearing is that there
(33:22):
are just not enough classifiedstaff in the building. And they
are wearing so many hats, justlike the educators are that they
are, you know, of course,there's a lot of burnout and
some other things, but they'rejust doing as best as they can
while doing a million jobs thathave gone unfilled. And, you
know, with behavioral issues andmental issues in classrooms on
(33:45):
the rise are spiking after theCOVID pandemic. I think it's
really important that we haveenough enough folks in those
rooms to support our educatorsand administrators to there's a
united front on educationstakeholders on supporting
classified staff and ensuringthat we can attract and retain
qualified, classified staffacross the state from
superintendents all the way tothe classified staff themselves.
(34:08):
So
Mike Journee (34:09):
well, and you know, we've touched on it
briefly about the facilities,the huge deficit in school
facility maintenance andreplacement did kind of come up
this week. And the office ofperformance evaluations
presented its findings from aJanuary 2022 report that showing
the state state's kind oflaissez faire attitude about
school buildings has created aproblem. And that's something
(34:31):
our members have been talkingabout as well. I've got another
clip here from Tara again, whereshe's talking she's talking
about that.
Unknown (34:39):
There has been conversation about around
funding for facilities, which isa really good and valuable
conversation, especially in ourarea in West data where you
know, we're over capacity andour buildings and we're still
growing basketball. We're thefastest still the fastest
growing I think what number inthe top five of the fastest
growing now We went down fromnumber one to like number five,
(35:03):
you know, so, but we're stillgrowing, they're still coming
in, we're still selling homes,and those homes have two to
three children each. And thosekids need to be educated. Right.
And we we have a mandate by thestate to educate them.
Mike Journee (35:17):
So Chris, you know, with an estimated budget
surplus of $1.5 billion, andthat's on top of the tax breaks
that have already happened toSeptember, on top of the
investment that we've made ineducation, we still think
there's another $1.5 billiondollars in available. Do you
think this is this issue isgoing to ripen this year? It
(35:41):
sounds like from what I washearing from the committee
hearings today that lawmakersare interested.
Chris Parri (35:45):
Yeah. So Chairman daveland, of the Senate
Education Committee, mentionedthat his members on that
committee can expect to see somelegislation about school
facilities this year, which isreally exciting. I'm excited for
us to start tackling this issue.
But the gap is huge. So in thosepresentations that you
mentioned, Mike, the just to getof the schools surveyed, which
(36:08):
was not all of the schools inthe state, it was around 77
school school districts. Theyestimated cost $894 million to
get us up to with schoolfacilities up to good condition.
So just good operating conditionfor all the schools in those
districts, which is not thebest, right, there's another
(36:31):
there's another tear, and that'sthe perfect condition. But we
can hope to get the good and itwill cost $800 million, if not
more than that. across thestate. So
Paul Stark (36:44):
it's good, I think at this point to applaud our
legislators that are finallypaying attention. There's so
many, so many years, it was justa blind eye to this. And it's
not that people weren't talkingabout it. They just didn't care
to hear it. And it's such a youknow, hats off to our current
state house right now, that isactually listening. And those
(37:04):
that are listening and hearingthat this needs to
Mike Journee (37:07):
end you want to talk about property tax reform.
Right. There you go. Right.
Well, guys, I think we've runout of time. And I want to thank
you all for the conversationtoday about the first couple of
weeks of legislative session.
Chris, I think we're gonna we'regonna see that bathroom bill
come up. Next week, most likely,we'll probably see some more
more ideas from coming from avariety of of lawmakers around
(37:30):
about about education policy. SoI look forward to having those
conversations with you guysthen, and thanks for joining me.
Chris Parri (37:36):
Thanks, Mike. Yeah, thanks, mate.
Mike Journee (37:38):
Thank you for listening to Idaho education
Association's hotline podcast,and this discussion about the
early weeks of 2023 Idaholegislature. Thanks as well to
my colleague, Chris Perry, andPaul Stark for joining me.
Please watch for future updatesabout new episodes on IEA social
media channels or sign up foremail updates on our website at
Idaho eaa.org. I'm Mike journee.
And as always, I hope you joinme in thanking Idaho's public
(38:02):
school educators for everythingthey do for our State students,
families, and public schools.
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