February 1, 2025 • 41 mins
This week we take a brief look at Week 4 of the 2025 Idaho Legislature and take a deep dive on the current state of the voucher debate. Guests are Quinn Perry, associate executive director at the Idaho School Boards Association and Chris Parri, political director at the Idaho Education Association, as well as Matt Compton, IEA's associate executive director.
Host: Mike Journee
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Music.
Mike Journee (00:12):
Welcome to the IEA reporter podcast, a regular
discussion about the news andevents important to Idaho
Education Association membersand those who value public
education. IAEA members arepublic school educators from all
over the state and members ofthe largest union in Idaho.
They're Idaho's most importanteducation experts, and they use
their influence to fight forfree, quality and equitable
(00:33):
public education for everystudent in the state. I'm Mike
Journee, communications directorat DIA and I'll be your host for
this episode. Today, we discussthe fight to keep vouchers out
of Idaho. Anti public educationforces are hard at work trying
to bring these taxpayer fundedsubsidies for private education
to our state. We'll talk withQuinn Perry, the Associate
(00:55):
Executive Director of the IdahoSchool Boards Association, and
Chris Perry, the IAEA politicaldirector and chief lobbyist
about how that fight isdeveloping at the State House.
But first, a quick summary ofwhat happened this week during a
2025 legislature with IEAAssociate Executive Director
Matt Compton.
(01:19):
Matt, thanks a lot for joiningme for this quick update about
what happened at the legislaturethis week. Lots of bills related
to education, but we also haveanother bill that's not
particularly related toeducation policy that is deeply
impactful of education in ourstate, though, and it's a union
busting Bill targeting the IdahoEducation Association and its
(01:39):
members. I think there's noquestion that this legislation
is repented to cripple thisunion and perhaps kill it. I
think some lawmakers wouldappreciate that sentiment if it
were to happen. Thoughts on thislegislation,
Matt Compton (01:50):
I think no doubt that's the intention of this
legislation, reminding folksthat this bill was brought to us
by the National FreedomFoundation, which is, you know,
right wing think tank that hasmade it its mission to really
tear down public education andpublic schools across the
country. So now they have theirlayover in Idaho during our
legislative session, and they'redoing what they can to undermine
(02:13):
the interests of the IdahoEducation Association.
Noteworthy in the bill is thatit's only the teachers union
that is targeted. It doesn'tcover things like the
firefighters Union or the policeunion or any other organized
labor. It is specific to Idahoteachers, and is centered in
Title 33 of Idaho code, which isall about education.
Mike Journee (02:35):
Yeah, it's for those who are following at home.
It's health bill 98 It wasintroduced by Representative
Judy Boyle out of Midvale, andit is an extension of
legislation that was broughtlast year 2024 bill that was
erratically defeated on theHouse floor with some very
courageous votes from Pro publiceducation lawmakers. This bill
(02:55):
in particular, has a provisionthat wasn't in last year's bill
around payroll deduction. A lotof our members have for many,
many years, been able to paytheir union dues through payroll
deduction. Anti unionlegislators across the country
have been successful in otherstates, but using that provision
by banning the use of payrolldeduction to pay union bills as
(03:18):
an attack on teachers unions,and they're trying to do it
here.
Matt, as you know, this unionhas been preparing for this
moment. We knew this legislationwas going to be coming. Our AEA
auto pay campaign all lastsummer was geared directly
toward this threat, but we'renot there yet. Clearly anti
public education, lawmakersthink there's still threat to
(03:41):
this union by including this inthis legislation. Have you heard
much about that provision at theState House?
Matt Compton (03:48):
We have not heard much that was an argument that
we used last year about how thiswould be just really crippling.
They heard the call, and theyunderstand that this could have
a dramatic effect on the IdahoEducation Association, because
that legislation would go intoeffect immediately. So starting
on January 1 or earlier, allschool districts would need to
(04:09):
cease doing any kind of payrolldeduction. So I'm glad that the
IA made the smart decision tostart moving folks off of
payroll deduction and onto theauto Bay campaign. Yeah, but we
still have a significant portionof our members who are still
using payroll deduction. And Iwant to direct folks to the IEA
website, io, ea.org, and lookacross the top there, auto pay
(04:31):
is featured, and members can gothere and look at the
information we have there aboutswitching from payroll deduction
to auto pay. We need everymember could do that so that
this threat is taken away fromthe Idaho legislature forever.
Mike, there are a couple otherbills that I want to share with
you that I think are noteworthy.
We had talked last week and inprevious weeks about the threat
(04:53):
that these voucher schemes havein Idaho. We discussed how
representative Wendy Horman.
Out of Idaho Falls hadintroduced a tax credit voucher
sometime last week. She cameback this week, making some
modifications to thatlegislation, and reintroduced it
as House Bill 93 and there'sactually a couple of noteworthy
(05:14):
changes in that legislation thatI think folks should be
concerned about. First andforemost in the original
legislation, the very firstbill, it was only eligible for
folks who are not enrolled inpublic schools. Now this would
be available to students whoenrolled in public schools. That
obviously increases the numberof folks who can take advantage
(05:35):
of this and increases the costof it.
There was an addition that theaccountability measure that this
voucher would have is some kindof parent led qualitative survey
about how parents feel studentsare doing in school, which
parent involvement is fantastic,but that's leaps and bounds from
(05:56):
what a traditional public schoolhas to do to demonstrate that
their students are meetingproficiency and growth. The
change from House Bill 39 to 93now also includes parents
ability to do small like microschools, where parents could
hire one teacher for, say, sevenor eight students, and that was
(06:17):
a provision that was not allowedin the original legislation.
Mike Journee (06:23):
Yeah. So listeners can continue listening to this
podcast later on. We have agreat discussion with Idaho
School Board AssociationAssociate Executive Director
Quinn Perry, and Ida's politicaldirector Chris Perry, about
vouchers in this legislativesession pretty exhaustive
conversation about that decisionand that it should be good
(06:45):
listening for folks who want toknow more about what's going on.
Matt, in addition toRepresentative hormones bill,
Senator lent voucher bill, whichis an extension of the
empowering parents grantprogram, which basically an
education savings accountvoucher. Using that program.
We're expecting to have a publichearing on that bill of what
(07:05):
from what I'm hearing early nextweek.
Matt Compton (07:07):
That's what I'm hearing as well. I believe that
the legislature, both bodies,are looking for an opportunity
to have the same conversationabout vouchers at the same time,
proposing the houses versionversus the Senate version and
see which of those two meets thegovernor's requirements when it
comes to transparency andfairness and accountability. So
(07:29):
it's going to be veryinteresting to see if anything
comes out in the wash. Yeah, soMatt, there's another bill that
we've been talking about for thepast couple of weeks,
legislation brought forward byRepresentative Ted Hill out of
Eagle, which would prohibit thedisplay of a number of flags in
classrooms with the section ofgovernment flags and military
(07:50):
flags. This is a legislationthat we believe is aimed in
fact, Hill is admitted. It's alegislation that that was
spurred by him seeing a prideflag behind an educator in an
online classroom. That billpassed the House of
Representatives, so it's on itsway to a hearing Senate
Committee. This piece oflegislation doesn't do anything
(08:10):
for students in the classroom.
Not only is it harmful for thestudents, but a pretty terrible
example of civics instructionthat you would tell students
that they should and could havetheir first amendments violated
because the flag or a visualdisplay that they brought to
school was somehow politicallyoffensive. I think that we can
do better than this. Before Igo, I wanted to share one more
(08:32):
last minute development. Chrisand I met with stakeholders in
the governor's office yesterdaymorning, where we talked about
the other $50 million that heearmarked for new innovative
education practices. He had $50million for the voucher
legislation, and then he alsohad another $50 million set
(08:54):
aside for new innovation, thethree places that we are looking
to make substantive investmentspolicy wise, going to be in
literacy classroom, behavioralissues and rural school
facilities. I believe next weekwe're going to see some
legislation comes out thatactually really deals with the
needs of students in Idahoclassrooms. That's fantastic.
(09:16):
That's really good to hear. AndI know the fact that you guys do
have the year of the governor'soffice is an important part of
the IEA influence at the statehouse, so the ability for you
guys to go in there and havethose conversations is critical.
One last bill I want to talk on.
And then a high note, we do havea bullying bill that was brought
(09:38):
by Representative Chris Mathiasout of Boise, that was approved
by the House Education Committeeand has also passed the House of
Representatives on a prettystrong vote and is now headed to
the Senate for consideration.
Matt, this bill essentiallyrequires parents to be notified
if their child at.
(10:00):
A student was involved in somekind of bullying incident,
whether they are the aggressoror the one who is being bullied.
This is good legislation. Itdoes help students. I'm glad to
see that the agarose houseagreed. I agree with you. This
is great legislation.
Representative Matthias took aswing at this last year in house
education, and wasn't able toget it across the line, so I was
(10:20):
very excited to see it out ofcommittee and then, you know,
crossing the House floor with 44votes to 26 that's very, very
good it. It is really importantthat lawmakers start talking
about some of the non academicissues that students are facing
in schools, and this is a goodstart.
Mike Journee (10:43):
Great. Well, Matt, thanks again. That concludes our
roundup of what happened at theIdaho State House this week, and
looking forward to see wherethat bill goes and more updates
on the rest of the legislationwe've been discussing.
You. Next up on the IAEAreported podcast how the fight
(11:06):
against taxpayer fundedsubsidies for private education
known as vouchers, is takingshape.
I talk with Gwen Perry, theAssociate Executive Director of
the Idaho School BoardsAssociation, and Chris Perry,
the IAEA political director,about how the fight against
vouchers shaping up the IdahoState houses session.
(11:33):
Well, Quinn Perry, Chris Perry,no relation, spelled
differently. Thanks for joiningus today, and we're going to
talk about vouchers today, guys,I think it's safe to say that
vouchers are probably the mosttalked about issue at the Idaho
legislature this year, bar none,whether education issues or any
other issues, this seems to bethe issue of the year. Is that?
(11:53):
Y'all perspective?
Quinn Perry (11:54):
Definitely my perspective. I feel like more
than ever I'm giving morecommunity presentations. I think
I've spoken at three chambers ofcommerce in the last few days.
I've been on several podcasts.
And, yeah, when I'm havinglegislative meetings, it's
almost the number one want to betalked about thing this year.
Chris Parri (12:13):
So, you know, school choice or vouchers, or
esas, whatever, being like thetalk of the town in the State
House is that it's not thatimportant to like regular human
beings. In Idaho, we did in ourpolling, there's just so many
more people concerned aboutteacher pay, fixing facilities,
just general, inadequate fundingfor their public schools. I
(12:36):
think only 3.8% of peopleresponded that school choice
should be the number onepriority of the legislature,
which ranked like ninth or 10thor something in our poll. Like
it is just not the talk of thetown in amongst normal people,
but it is dominating theconversation about education in
the building, which just kind oflends itself to the idea that
the legislature isn't reallytalking about the real issues in
(12:58):
the state,
Mike Journee (13:01):
right? We've talked about that a couple times
on here, Chris and how, youknow, it seems like these
culture war issues seem to bethe thing that they really want
to litigate in the legislature.
And it really is not abouthelping kids or helping teachers
do their job better, oradministrators or school board
members or any of that. It'sabout scoring those culture war
so it's really unfortunate,guys, I want to ask next, what,
(13:21):
what brought us to this point towhere this issue is front and
center of all the issues at thestate house? Can you talk a
little bit about that?
Quinn Perry (13:34):
Well, I think part of it is just the amount of
national attention that Idahohas gotten for the fact that we
are a largely very conservativestate who has not expanded what
these are being sold asconservative policies, even
though, by their own merit ortheir own set of values, not
conservative, right? This islike a government handout
(13:56):
without any kind of stringsattached, or accountability or
transparency or anything thatyou normally hear conservatives
when they talk about governmentappropriation. So I think it's a
combination of the nationalattention that we're getting. I
mean, Texas, Idaho and Tennesseeare the three targets for these
pro voucher groups, and theyinvested heavily into our state
(14:19):
elections in the May primarythat I think are influencing
that conversation. So I thinkthat's why it's dominating. But
also I think largely it'sreflective of our state
legislature maybe does not valuepublic education, and I think
that's another reason why thisconversation and redirecting
funds away from our publicschools is really at the
forefront.
Chris Parri (14:41):
Part of this is revealed in the actions of the
groups pushing theseinitiatives. If you have to
spend millions of dollars inprimary elections to get your
idea across the finish line, ifyou have to hire millions of
dollars worth of lobbyists tosell your stuff to the
legislature in places likeKentucky and. Alaska also very
conservative places, votersrejected these at the polls. So
(15:05):
you see that these are notaligned at all with actual
conservative values. But there'swell moneyed interests that
don't put a lot of value ingovernment and in taxpayer
money, just in general, and theidea that we can actually get
real things done for people andwould instead just kind of take
all that tax money and turn itinto profits for themselves. You
see corporate greed reallycrystallizing in these policies
(15:26):
and attacking states like ours,attacking Texas, Tennessee, all
of these other red states, someof them have rejected them after
they've experienced them. Othersare having a harder time, like
Arizona, trying to unpeel theseawful policies.
Mike Journee (15:42):
Yeah, and it's the dollars that we're talking about
are big. I mean, generally, Ithink you can say across the
nation, about half of everystate's budget is spent on
public education. So they seethose numbers and they say, Hey,
if we can get a piece oftaxpayer dollars in other places
of the budget, why can't we getour hands on that, you know? So
that's a big attraction to folksand the anti government folks
(16:04):
who are in the legislature areperfectly willing to tear down
those institutions before we gettoo far into the details of the
session, guys, I'd like todefine what we mean when we're
talking about vouchers. I thinkone of the best definitions I've
ever heard came recently from areally great panel at the IEA
lobby dinner that you were apart of last weekend. Quinn, I
(16:25):
believe it was Paula Keller fromthe Idaho business for
education, who said it this way.
She said, if you're spendingtaxpayer money on education, and
public schools do not benefitfrom that spending. It's a
voucher.
Quinn Perry (16:37):
Yeah, that definition that Paula uses
actually from Josh Cowan, who isa really well known researcher
on the school voucher movement.
I mean, it's really anyredirection of taxpayer money
towards private and religiouseducation, particularly where
those same institutions aren'thaving to follow any of the
oversight, accountability ortransparency that's guaranteed
(16:58):
and regulated in our publicschools. So the proposals
floating around the legislature,there's now been several
introduced, but they all fitthat bucket. But I will say
that, you know, if you're usingthe governor's four words, which
were fair, accountable,responsible and transparent,
yes, the fart test, as I like tojoke with folks, the proposals
look very different in theirapproaches to those four words.
(17:23):
So even though all bills thathave been introduced are indeed
a voucher bill, their approachescould not look more different.
Mike Journee (17:32):
Yeah, that's right, and I was going to ask
Chris about to a little bitabout that next. So we do have
two bills that are kind of themain contenders for everybody's
attention right now. One wasbrought by Representative Wendy
Horman of Idaho Falls and herally in the Senate. Let me Lori
Denton heart talk out ofmeridian. And then there was
another brought by Senator Davidlent out of Idaho Falls. And
(17:54):
they do, you're right. Quinn,they take two very different tax
in their approach to vouchers.
Chris, I'm going to ask you totalk a little bit about
representative hormones bill,and then Quinn, if you'll talk a
little bit about Senator mittsbill after that, that'd be
great. Give us a little bit of aflavor about how these bills
approach vouchers and where theygo. And I will say
representative hormones Bill wasreintroduced this week in the
house, education, I'm sorry, inthe house Revenue and Taxation
(18:19):
Committee. So Chris talk alittle bit about her bill.
Wouldyou?
Chris Parri (18:25):
Yeah? So Representative hormones
legislation over the pastseveral years has really been
the representation of all of thethings I mentioned before, of
those huge money groups, the bigdonors, the lobbyists, all of
those massive groups that havepushed these policies elsewhere,
Harmon has been the vessel forthat legislation, so she hasn't
(18:46):
changed her proposals very muchover the years, they've always
kind of fit the unaccountable,not fair, irresponsible and
completely opaque set ofprinciples that these big groups
push. So in this iteration, it'sinteresting, Mike, that you
almost said that it wasintroduced in the House
Education Committee, becauseostensibly, this is an education
(19:08):
issue that ought to go throughan education committee. But if
you remember when our goodfriend, representative, Julie
Yamamoto, was chair of HouseEducation, she was not really a
huge fan of these policies. Soto get around the education
committees and potentialcritiques of these policies,
they decided to do a tax creditwhich could go through the rev
and tax committee. So that's thevoucher we're seeing from
(19:32):
representative Horman. Is atuition tax credit, essentially
that would reimburse people fortuition expenses up to $5,000.70
$500 for students with specialneeds. It's not exactly clear
how this would work, how itwould actually accomplish the
stated goal of helping lowincome families afford tuition.
(19:54):
Five grand is not going to getyou very far with much of the
tuition in the state and you.
What working family is going tofront 15 grand for tuition and
hope they get five grand in acouple months from the
government. It's capped as well.
So I don't think we have anyother kind of tax credit in the
state that is trapped. Sothere's a chance that you just
run out of money before you caneven get your reimbursement, and
(20:16):
then suddenly you're infinancial turmoil after having
to count for that five grandtuition credit. So my tin foil
hat is that they'll do this.
They are totally fine with thatfinancial turmoil that these
families might experience whenthey try to pay for tuition, and
then next year, the year after,they'll come back around and
say, look at these families thatwere counting on us to pay them
money for their tuition andcan't afford it. So we have to
(20:38):
expand the program, they'rebasically creating artificial
demand on the backs of familiesthat they are breaking promises
to. And I think that's so gross,but again, tin foil hat, but
it's that's what has played outin other states. So the
reintroduced version ofrepresentative hormones bill
doesn't really change that much.
It more specifically calls outthat these expenses can be used
(20:58):
for homeschool and micro schooland learning pods, and, you
know, igloo schools, I don'tknow, just any kind of
descriptor that you could comeup with. And then there's some
sort of survey that parents haveto fill out that kind of
gestures at the accountabilityarguments we've been making, but
doesn't really do anythingfunctional. So anyways, it's the
same as we've always seen fromrepresentative Horman.
Mike Journee (21:21):
So essentially, Chris, what we're looking at
here is a tax credit that willnot cover the typical cost of a
private school education, andthat would likely only be used
by people who are alreadysending their kids to expensive
private schools, and will not bean enticement for working class
(21:42):
families who want their kids toget a private school education
because it does not make up thedifference in the typical
tuition correct and has zeroaccountability, asks nothing of
the schools that would benefitfrom these tax funds. Well,
Quinn, Okay, Senator Dave Lentzbill it takes a totally
different tack on vouchers. Tellus a little bit about his bill.
Quinn Perry (22:05):
Well, Senator Lenz bill does not create a new and
program, but it expands really,what is an education savings
account that already exists inIdaho law called empowering
parents. So listeners may recallthat in 2021 actually the same
sponsors of the House tax creditbrought the empowering parents
grant program, and originally itincluded private school tuition
(22:28):
at the time that was nonnegotiable for Governor little
and the education stakeholders,but we agreed that a Low Income
Grant Program for educationalexpenses, especially in the
height of The COVID pandemic,was important. It created that
program. So Senator Lenz billexpands the existing empowering
parents program. Right nowyou're capped at $1,000 per
(22:50):
child, and I think 3000 perfamily. This increases that to
5000 per child, with an overallfamily cap of 15,000 and it
includes private school tuition.
It also includes tuition to prekindergarten programs, which is
another stark difference betweenthe House and Senate Bill. But
Senator Lenz approach definitelytakes into the account the
(23:12):
governor's four pillars. SenatorLentz Bill does require private
schools to you know, you have toregister to be eligible. So it's
not a free for all for anyprivate school, home school,
etc. The schools actually dohave to register. And when they
do, they have to attest to someof the following. So for
example, they have to attestthat they are fingerprinting and
(23:33):
background checking theiremployees. They have to follow
special education laws, which,again, just to point out
something Chris had said. Youknow, the platitudes that we
hear often from the provoucherfolks are that like, Oh, this is
to give families a choice and aleg up, but private schools
often deny students withdisabilities, like they are very
open and transparent about that.
(23:53):
So this would require thoseschools to offer special
education. They would also haveto follow the parental rights
laws for Idaho. So that's thelaws that were recently expanded
in the 2023 legislative sessionthat really ensures that parents
have rights to their child'seducation. It also requires the
school to attest to meeting theindoctrination law that was
(24:15):
passed in 2021 so that's maybemore commonly known as the anti
critical race theory law, andthey do have to be accredited,
which in you know to give creditto Senator Lent is critical,
because in states with universalexpansion, which Senator Len's
bill is a use a universal ESA itjust is technically 5% of the
money can go to anyone with anadjusted gross income of 80,000
(24:39):
or above. But we do see a lot instates where these private
schools are popping up in, likestrip malls, or I talk about
this a lot where, like, a publiccharter school was actually
closed by regulators in Arizonabecause they had poor financial
problems, but also 0%proficiency in math, they were
(24:59):
closed by. Regulators inArizona. Then 30 days later,
they just reopened as a privateschool and are receiving, you
know, however much money perstudent. So yeah, Senator Lenz,
Bill certainly takes a differentapproach. But again, our fear
and what I want folks to know isthat it doesn't matter what
income levels you put or the capon spending, or these
(25:21):
accountability requirements, thepro voucher lobby are going to
come for all of it. They'regoing to try to lift the income
eligibility, they're going totry to deregulate, and, you
know, remove oversight, and soas soon as we get these into
place, like the lobbying war,will forever begin to ensure
that more money is going towardsprivate schools with less
regulation and oversight.
Mike Journee (25:42):
Yeah, that's what we've seen all across the
country, wherever they the camelgets its nose in the tent. As
they say, the later iterationsof the bill just continue to
grow and become more expansiveand heat up more of the budget,
budget that should be going topublic schools. And so that's
it's an MO That is very wellworn all across the country, and
(26:02):
you know, frankly, I think thetwo of you have a lot of credit
to take for the fact that thathasn't been the case here in
Idaho yet. The educationstakeholders, the folks that
we've been engaged with, the whowere part of our the great press
conference that we had on IEALobby Day, and have been part of
this conversation all along,deserve a lot of credit. Idaho
(26:24):
is one of the few red states inthe country that has no voucher
program at all because of thatand so and of course, also
because of Governor's littlesprevious rejection of vouchers.
And I wanted to talk a littlebit about that, I think that's a
big factor in the way thisconversation has shaped out.
This year, he started off thelegislative session in the state
(26:46):
of the state saying he wanted tospend about $50 million on some
kind of a school choice program,but his one big caveat to that
was accountability and how we dothat. So I'll talk a little bit
about what accountability means.
I've had some of our IEA membersask this very question of me,
accountability is a watch wordaround this, and as you pointed
(27:07):
out, it's the centerpiece ofSenator Lentz bill, which makes
it probably a little morepalatable than it would be. We
strongly oppose vouchers in anyform at the IEA, and will
continue to do so, but talk alittle bit about this
accountability concept, if youwould. What does that actually
mean when we're talking about avoucher program.
Quinn Perry (27:30):
no bill will ever be able to duplicate the type of
oversight, transparency andaccountability that's guaranteed
in our public schools, right?
And that's because publicschools have been institutions
for a very long time, and a lotof these regulations exist for
lessons learned and ensuringthat we're providing the the
right and appropriate health andsafety and protections of
(27:51):
children. So I thinkaccountability comes in a lot of
different ways, and I'm notgoing to suggest that all
accountability is meaningfulaccountability. There is a ton
of red tape that the statelegislature puts on public
schools for redundant reportingthings that you know, perhaps
they were suspicious aboutinvesting and wanted to know
that return on investment. So anexample, the student eligible
(28:13):
under the voucher also has totake a nationally normed
reference test to ensure thatlearning is occurring. So I
don't like using accountabilityas like, Oh, it's a test that
you take to make sure that theyou know, no, that's the
transparency piece. Are thetaxpayers able to see that this
the that learning is occurringwith their students, right? But
(28:34):
it also is like that dueprocess. It's ensuring that
people are given a fair chanceto have an equitable right to an
education. It means that peoplearen't discriminated against
based on how they show up to theschool house doors. It means
that we're providing a fair andconsistent approach so ensuring
that standards are being taughtand that all children are kind
(28:56):
of progressing at a certainlevel. It ensures that your
teachers are certified, thatthey are, you know, well
trained, they're providedprofessional development. So,
like, I don't even know that youcould, like, encompass
accountability in one area.
Like, we could go down 50different rabbit holes about
what accountability looks like,but it's ensuring that taxpayer
(29:18):
money is going out and thatthere are regulations or
oversight how that money isspent, and particularly how it's
not being spent, meaning thatwe're not sending taxpayer
dollars out that are going tosupport discriminatory practices
against students withdisabilities, or that we're
sending them to institutionsthat aren't even fingerprinting
(29:38):
or background Checking, youknow, employees, and we're not
putting children, you know, inthe hands of predators, again,
with funded by the taxpayers. SoI think that's one way to look
at it, but would love to hearanyone else's opinions.
Mike Journee (29:52):
Yeah, I think that's all great. One of the
ways I think about it as welltoo, Chris, is, you know, every
tax Dollar that is spent in thepublic school system is in some
way either allocated or overseenor regulated, if you will, by an
elected official, someone whohas to be on a ballot, and the
(30:13):
voters of that school districtor that state vote those folks
into place. They are electedofficials who are accountable to
voters, and they're the ones whoare spending these tax dollars,
and voucher program does not dothat, right? Chris, look, not at
all.
Chris Parri (30:30):
And so I think you brought up a good point there,
Mike, like, what happens ourpublic schools? Can you can hold
people accountable directly tothat, right? Do you know what's
going on? It's very transparentwhat's going on in public
schools. And you can go back toyour school board, sorry, Quinn
and unelect, a whole bunch ofthem, if you really want to part
of the lack of accountability,lack of transparency we see in
(30:50):
these voucher programs is thatno one wants to be held
accountable for what theseprivate schools are up to, which
is when a private school islike, Oh, I don't want to
background check out, you know,our employees, and then
legislators are like, and Idon't even want to know who
those employees are. It's like,okay, who do we hold
accountable? Then when somethingterrible happens, right? So
there's, again, it's, it'salmost ridiculous, and it would
(31:12):
be funny if it like, wasn'tlike, staring down our our necks
right now. But yeah, so thelike, type of accountability
that we typically see inconversation the legislature
right now, as Quinn mentioned,background checks, compliance of
parental rights in education,disclosing operating budgets.
Right this goes to the ideathat, like these private
schools, just raise theirtuition immediately as soon as
(31:34):
they get these vouchers, which,of course they would. Why
wouldn't they? For as much lovethe free market gets from
legislatures, they sure lovemessing with it when it serves
their big money. Groups abideby, you know, anti
discrimination, comply withstate laws that prevent
indoctrination test students, asQuinn mentioned, and ensure the
funding goes to low incomefamilies. These are all
(31:56):
prioritized by Idaho voters, butyou also see the lobby groups
pushing vouchers very opposed toessentially every single point
here, which goes again to thepoint like, if you pass Senator
Lenz bill, for example, a morethoughtful approach that's not
going to stop these groups fromcoming back and trying to
explode every single piece ofregulation inside of it. More
point on this too, which I findjust so infuriatingly ironic, is
(32:19):
that the same legislators whoare the most passionate about
this unaccountable voucherlegislation complete black box
of just tossing taxpayer moneyinto a hole along with students,
are the ones that have made thelives of teachers and students
In public school so micromanagedand regulated in the first
(32:43):
place. So the exact samelegislators are the ones are
saying, we need to micromanagewhat flags are in your building
and micromanage every single bitof your curriculum, and yet
they're totally fine with givingtaxpayer money to schools that
have no accountability, notransparency and no regulations.
So again, you just see this biasagainst public schools and then
(33:05):
this complete giveaway toprivate schools.
Mike Journee (33:09):
Yeah, and what?
And one of the things that Ithink I kind of gravitate toward
is the fact that we don't haveany examples of what
accountability looks like in avoucher bill from anywhere else
around the country where this isgoing on. It doesn't exist. And
Chris, you brought up the factthat they don't want to be held
accountable. The folks who areadvocating for vouchers don't
want the parents who are goingto be receiving this, these
public tax dollars, accountablefor how they're spent, which is,
(33:32):
it's an incredible concept tome. Tell us how our listeners
might be able to engage on thisissue. What are some ways that
they might be able to letlawmakers know how they feel
about this?
Quinn Perry (33:45):
Oh, man, well, reach out to them immediately,
whether they're on theserelevant committees or not. This
issue will be the issue of thesession. And you know, I think
unfortunately, with GovernorBrad little kind of setting
aside money in his State of theState address for this, the
likelihood of a voucher billhitting his desk is is going to
be very likely. And so it is soimportant that folks lean in on
(34:09):
the accountability and thattransparency piece. Because I've
been saying this, I thinkwhatever hits his desk likely is
signed into law and will foreverbe the stealing of
accountability, transparency,etc, like our colleagues across
the country, other states, likeArizona, Ohio, Indiana, Florida,
they would be begging for someof the accountability that we're
(34:29):
seeing perhaps in Senate Bill1025, right, like background
checks and fingerprinting. Andwe've learned that you can't go
back and add it, because the outof state lobbyists will push and
push and push against that. Soit's so important and critical
that folks are also, you know,saying to them, we don't support
the redirection of our taxpayerdollars away from public schools
(34:50):
and into the hands ofunaccountable, non transparent
private schools, but thatthey're also leaning in on those
four words of fair, accountable,responsible and transparent
andSo have conversations, pickup the phone. Don't just email.
Like, pick up the phone when youcan leave a voicemail. Try to
get in touch with yourlegislator. Also have like,
dinner table conversations,like, get your friends and
(35:12):
neighbors involved in this. Ithink a lot of people are waking
up to what is actually going tohappen to their neighborhood
public schools once thesevoucher bills become law, it is
so critical that you engage yourcommunities, your friends,
neighbors, your friends atchurch, business, community,
whoever you have to be engagedon this and reach out today to
your legislator.
Chris Parri (35:34):
I would echo everything Quinn said. Another
thing that we've seen throughoutthe years is that some
legislators are kind of cavingto the pressure and saying,
Look, you know, let's just, I'mtired of this conversation. Give
them a tiny voucher and we'llmove on and move forward, or
whatever. When you talk tolegislators, don't let them off
the hook. That's not how beinglegislator works. You don't just
(35:57):
get to make a bad vote and thenget forgiven by every
constituent in your district,right? Hold them accountable to
this and let them know this isnot cost free. This is not a
free vote. You just get to makethat screws over your public
schools, right? You can't dothat. You're a legislator. You
have power. You were elected fora reason, and if you go back on
those promises to your propublic school constituents, you
(36:19):
do not deserve their support inthe next election. I think it's
really, really key that peoplepoint that out, particularly
when, again, only three point, Ijust saw the poll, 3.8% of the
people said that this is apriority, compared to, you know,
well over half of the peoplethat were asking the open ended
questions saying, fix our publicschools in a good way, right? So
(36:41):
I don't know it just it reallymakes me angry when people just
kind of cave to the pressure.
It's like, come on, like,represent Giuliana Moto is a
good example of this. She washappy to lose she I mean,
obviously she would prefer tostill be in office, but she was
happy to be voting the way thatshe knew was right throughout
her entire tenure in thelegislature. And then again, we
(37:01):
had a guy from Arizona, a formerlegislator, who voted for the
ESA because of some of thatpressure, who now says that that
was the biggest regret of hislife. And if he could go back to
the legislature again and redothat, that would be the one vote
at the top of his list that hewould change. So don't let
legislators be that guy. Youknow, it's really frustrating to
see people caved to these kindof things. And oh so more
(37:24):
specifically. So Wendy hormonalwill be in the house revenue Tax
Committee on the House side, andthen Senator Lenz bill will be
in the Senate EducationCommittee on the Senate side. So
those are kind of the committeesto reach out to.
Mike Journee (37:41):
Thank you, Chris.
I appreciate that. And yourpoint underscores elections
matter. Elections matter, andpeople who care about these
issues need to make sure thatthey and their friends and their
family get out and vote, bringgood people to the out of the
legislature. So guys, my lastquestion is pink. Quinn, already
thrusts on us a little bit,where do you think this is all
(38:02):
going to end this year?
Chris Parri (38:06):
I think Speaker Mike Moyle will ensure that a
voucher bill hits the governor'sdesk. So I think there's still a
lot of time left in thelegislative session for these
policy debates to fold out. Ourhope, of course, is that the
legislature wakes up to thesevoucher schemes and reject them
wholeheartedly, but we know thatthat is an unlikely thing, so it
just really encouraged folks tolean in on what that means. But
(38:28):
I think there's still a lot oftime to be had between now and
then, so just reach out to folksand really get them engaged.
Maybe I'm a little moreoptimistically Quinn, but just
like barely, I would say, Ithink that there's still a
chance we get nothing because ofthe way the conversation has
shifted. Senator Lentz billgives us a chance to compare and
(38:49):
contrast these two verydifferent pieces of legislation,
and the more that we canemphasize the things missing
from representative hormonesbill, which is again on the
House side, that is Mike Moylespreferred voucher bill. And the
more we can say, Why are thesevery popular things missing from
this bill? I think the more wecan kind of pit those two bills
(39:11):
against each other, the higherour chance of getting nothing
goes. So we really need toemphasize that contrast and make
sure again, that theparticularly folks in the Senate
remains strong and committed toan accountable bill or no bill
at all, and make sure thegovernor, as well, doesn't if
you know if representativehormones bill, as it currently
(39:31):
is written, hits his desk againthat does not pass Quinn's fart
test, as she said, the fair,accountable, responsible and
transparency tests that thegovernor laid out, and so he
should not be allowed to signthat bill without facing his
constituents and explaining whyhe's signing it. I think it's
really key that we hold thesefolks accountable to the things
(39:52):
they said, and don't getdistracted by rhetoric from the
pro voucher lobby groups.
Mike Journee (40:00):
Yeah. And the governor was very clear in his
State of the State address thathe would not support something
that did not have accountabilitymeasures similar to what public
schools face. So thanks to bothof you so much for this
conversation. It was a good one.
I'm sure there's going to be alot of developments around this
as things go forward, becauseexpertise is second to none, and
(40:21):
I want to thank you both forwhat you do down the State
House.
Quinn Perry (40:26):
Thanks for having us.
Chris Parri (40:28):
Thanks, Mike,
Mike Journee (40:32):
thank you for listening to this episode of the
IAEA reporter podcast, andthanks to Quinn Perry, the Idaho
School Board Association and theIAEA is Chris Perry and Matt
Compton for joining us. Pleasewatch for updates about new
podcast episodes on IA socialmedia channels or sign up to
receive IAEA reporter emailupdates on our
website@idahoea.org I'm MikeJournee, and as always, I hope
(40:55):
you join me in thanking Idahopublic school educators for
everything they do, first aidstudents, families, public
schools, you.
Music.
Mike Journee (00:12):
Welcome to the IEA reporter podcast, a regular
discussion about the news andevents important to Idaho
Education Association membersand those who value public
education. IAEA members arepublic school educators from all
over the state and members ofthe largest union in Idaho.
They're Idaho's most importanteducation experts, and they use
their influence to fight forfree, quality and equitable
(00:33):
public education for everystudent in the state. I'm Mike
Journee, communications directorat DIA and I'll be your host for
this episode. Today, we discussthe fight to keep vouchers out
of Idaho. Anti public educationforces are hard at work trying
to bring these taxpayer fundedsubsidies for private education
to our state. We'll talk withQuinn Perry, the Associate
(00:55):
Executive Director of the IdahoSchool Boards Association, and
Chris Perry, the IAEA politicaldirector and chief lobbyist
about how that fight isdeveloping at the State House.
But first, a quick summary ofwhat happened this week during a
2025 legislature with IEAAssociate Executive Director
Matt Compton.
(01:19):
Matt, thanks a lot for joiningme for this quick update about
what happened at the legislaturethis week. Lots of bills related
to education, but we also haveanother bill that's not
particularly related toeducation policy that is deeply
impactful of education in ourstate, though, and it's a union
busting Bill targeting the IdahoEducation Association and its
(01:39):
members. I think there's noquestion that this legislation
is repented to cripple thisunion and perhaps kill it. I
think some lawmakers wouldappreciate that sentiment if it
were to happen. Thoughts on thislegislation,
Matt Compton (01:50):
I think no doubt that's the intention of this
legislation, reminding folksthat this bill was brought to us
by the National FreedomFoundation, which is, you know,
right wing think tank that hasmade it its mission to really
tear down public education andpublic schools across the
country. So now they have theirlayover in Idaho during our
legislative session, and they'redoing what they can to undermine
(02:13):
the interests of the IdahoEducation Association.
Noteworthy in the bill is thatit's only the teachers union
that is targeted. It doesn'tcover things like the
firefighters Union or the policeunion or any other organized
labor. It is specific to Idahoteachers, and is centered in
Title 33 of Idaho code, which isall about education.
Mike Journee (02:35):
Yeah, it's for those who are following at home.
It's health bill 98 It wasintroduced by Representative
Judy Boyle out of Midvale, andit is an extension of
legislation that was broughtlast year 2024 bill that was
erratically defeated on theHouse floor with some very
courageous votes from Pro publiceducation lawmakers. This bill
(02:55):
in particular, has a provisionthat wasn't in last year's bill
around payroll deduction. A lotof our members have for many,
many years, been able to paytheir union dues through payroll
deduction. Anti unionlegislators across the country
have been successful in otherstates, but using that provision
by banning the use of payrolldeduction to pay union bills as
(03:18):
an attack on teachers unions,and they're trying to do it
here.
Matt, as you know, this unionhas been preparing for this
moment. We knew this legislationwas going to be coming. Our AEA
auto pay campaign all lastsummer was geared directly
toward this threat, but we'renot there yet. Clearly anti
public education, lawmakersthink there's still threat to
(03:41):
this union by including this inthis legislation. Have you heard
much about that provision at theState House?
Matt Compton (03:48):
We have not heard much that was an argument that
we used last year about how thiswould be just really crippling.
They heard the call, and theyunderstand that this could have
a dramatic effect on the IdahoEducation Association, because
that legislation would go intoeffect immediately. So starting
on January 1 or earlier, allschool districts would need to
(04:09):
cease doing any kind of payrolldeduction. So I'm glad that the
IA made the smart decision tostart moving folks off of
payroll deduction and onto theauto Bay campaign. Yeah, but we
still have a significant portionof our members who are still
using payroll deduction. And Iwant to direct folks to the IEA
website, io, ea.org, and lookacross the top there, auto pay
(04:31):
is featured, and members can gothere and look at the
information we have there aboutswitching from payroll deduction
to auto pay. We need everymember could do that so that
this threat is taken away fromthe Idaho legislature forever.
Mike, there are a couple otherbills that I want to share with
you that I think are noteworthy.
We had talked last week and inprevious weeks about the threat
(04:53):
that these voucher schemes havein Idaho. We discussed how
representative Wendy Horman.
Out of Idaho Falls hadintroduced a tax credit voucher
sometime last week. She cameback this week, making some
modifications to thatlegislation, and reintroduced it
as House Bill 93 and there'sactually a couple of noteworthy
(05:14):
changes in that legislation thatI think folks should be
concerned about. First andforemost in the original
legislation, the very firstbill, it was only eligible for
folks who are not enrolled inpublic schools. Now this would
be available to students whoenrolled in public schools. That
obviously increases the numberof folks who can take advantage
(05:35):
of this and increases the costof it.
There was an addition that theaccountability measure that this
voucher would have is some kindof parent led qualitative survey
about how parents feel studentsare doing in school, which
parent involvement is fantastic,but that's leaps and bounds from
(05:56):
what a traditional public schoolhas to do to demonstrate that
their students are meetingproficiency and growth. The
change from House Bill 39 to 93now also includes parents
ability to do small like microschools, where parents could
hire one teacher for, say, sevenor eight students, and that was
(06:17):
a provision that was not allowedin the original legislation.
Mike Journee (06:23):
Yeah. So listeners can continue listening to this
podcast later on. We have agreat discussion with Idaho
School Board AssociationAssociate Executive Director
Quinn Perry, and Ida's politicaldirector Chris Perry, about
vouchers in this legislativesession pretty exhaustive
conversation about that decisionand that it should be good
(06:45):
listening for folks who want toknow more about what's going on.
Matt, in addition toRepresentative hormones bill,
Senator lent voucher bill, whichis an extension of the
empowering parents grantprogram, which basically an
education savings accountvoucher. Using that program.
We're expecting to have a publichearing on that bill of what
(07:05):
from what I'm hearing early nextweek.
Matt Compton (07:07):
That's what I'm hearing as well. I believe that
the legislature, both bodies,are looking for an opportunity
to have the same conversationabout vouchers at the same time,
proposing the houses versionversus the Senate version and
see which of those two meets thegovernor's requirements when it
comes to transparency andfairness and accountability. So
(07:29):
it's going to be veryinteresting to see if anything
comes out in the wash. Yeah, soMatt, there's another bill that
we've been talking about for thepast couple of weeks,
legislation brought forward byRepresentative Ted Hill out of
Eagle, which would prohibit thedisplay of a number of flags in
classrooms with the section ofgovernment flags and military
(07:50):
flags. This is a legislationthat we believe is aimed in
fact, Hill is admitted. It's alegislation that that was
spurred by him seeing a prideflag behind an educator in an
online classroom. That billpassed the House of
Representatives, so it's on itsway to a hearing Senate
Committee. This piece oflegislation doesn't do anything
(08:10):
for students in the classroom.
Not only is it harmful for thestudents, but a pretty terrible
example of civics instructionthat you would tell students
that they should and could havetheir first amendments violated
because the flag or a visualdisplay that they brought to
school was somehow politicallyoffensive. I think that we can
do better than this. Before Igo, I wanted to share one more
(08:32):
last minute development. Chrisand I met with stakeholders in
the governor's office yesterdaymorning, where we talked about
the other $50 million that heearmarked for new innovative
education practices. He had $50million for the voucher
legislation, and then he alsohad another $50 million set
(08:54):
aside for new innovation, thethree places that we are looking
to make substantive investmentspolicy wise, going to be in
literacy classroom, behavioralissues and rural school
facilities. I believe next weekwe're going to see some
legislation comes out thatactually really deals with the
needs of students in Idahoclassrooms. That's fantastic.
(09:16):
That's really good to hear. AndI know the fact that you guys do
have the year of the governor'soffice is an important part of
the IEA influence at the statehouse, so the ability for you
guys to go in there and havethose conversations is critical.
One last bill I want to talk on.
And then a high note, we do havea bullying bill that was brought
(09:38):
by Representative Chris Mathiasout of Boise, that was approved
by the House Education Committeeand has also passed the House of
Representatives on a prettystrong vote and is now headed to
the Senate for consideration.
Matt, this bill essentiallyrequires parents to be notified
if their child at.
(10:00):
A student was involved in somekind of bullying incident,
whether they are the aggressoror the one who is being bullied.
This is good legislation. Itdoes help students. I'm glad to
see that the agarose houseagreed. I agree with you. This
is great legislation.
Representative Matthias took aswing at this last year in house
education, and wasn't able toget it across the line, so I was
(10:20):
very excited to see it out ofcommittee and then, you know,
crossing the House floor with 44votes to 26 that's very, very
good it. It is really importantthat lawmakers start talking
about some of the non academicissues that students are facing
in schools, and this is a goodstart.
Mike Journee (10:43):
Great. Well, Matt, thanks again. That concludes our
roundup of what happened at theIdaho State House this week, and
looking forward to see wherethat bill goes and more updates
on the rest of the legislationwe've been discussing.
You. Next up on the IAEAreported podcast how the fight
(11:06):
against taxpayer fundedsubsidies for private education
known as vouchers, is takingshape.
I talk with Gwen Perry, theAssociate Executive Director of
the Idaho School BoardsAssociation, and Chris Perry,
the IAEA political director,about how the fight against
vouchers shaping up the IdahoState houses session.
(11:33):
Well, Quinn Perry, Chris Perry,no relation, spelled
differently. Thanks for joiningus today, and we're going to
talk about vouchers today, guys,I think it's safe to say that
vouchers are probably the mosttalked about issue at the Idaho
legislature this year, bar none,whether education issues or any
other issues, this seems to bethe issue of the year. Is that?
(11:53):
Y'all perspective?
Quinn Perry (11:54):
Definitely my perspective. I feel like more
than ever I'm giving morecommunity presentations. I think
I've spoken at three chambers ofcommerce in the last few days.
I've been on several podcasts.
And, yeah, when I'm havinglegislative meetings, it's
almost the number one want to betalked about thing this year.
Chris Parri (12:13):
So, you know, school choice or vouchers, or
esas, whatever, being like thetalk of the town in the State
House is that it's not thatimportant to like regular human
beings. In Idaho, we did in ourpolling, there's just so many
more people concerned aboutteacher pay, fixing facilities,
just general, inadequate fundingfor their public schools. I
(12:36):
think only 3.8% of peopleresponded that school choice
should be the number onepriority of the legislature,
which ranked like ninth or 10thor something in our poll. Like
it is just not the talk of thetown in amongst normal people,
but it is dominating theconversation about education in
the building, which just kind oflends itself to the idea that
the legislature isn't reallytalking about the real issues in
(12:58):
the state,
Mike Journee (13:01):
right? We've talked about that a couple times
on here, Chris and how, youknow, it seems like these
culture war issues seem to bethe thing that they really want
to litigate in the legislature.
And it really is not abouthelping kids or helping teachers
do their job better, oradministrators or school board
members or any of that. It'sabout scoring those culture war
so it's really unfortunate,guys, I want to ask next, what,
(13:21):
what brought us to this point towhere this issue is front and
center of all the issues at thestate house? Can you talk a
little bit about that?
Quinn Perry (13:34):
Well, I think part of it is just the amount of
national attention that Idahohas gotten for the fact that we
are a largely very conservativestate who has not expanded what
these are being sold asconservative policies, even
though, by their own merit ortheir own set of values, not
conservative, right? This islike a government handout
(13:56):
without any kind of stringsattached, or accountability or
transparency or anything thatyou normally hear conservatives
when they talk about governmentappropriation. So I think it's a
combination of the nationalattention that we're getting. I
mean, Texas, Idaho and Tennesseeare the three targets for these
pro voucher groups, and theyinvested heavily into our state
(14:19):
elections in the May primarythat I think are influencing
that conversation. So I thinkthat's why it's dominating. But
also I think largely it'sreflective of our state
legislature maybe does not valuepublic education, and I think
that's another reason why thisconversation and redirecting
funds away from our publicschools is really at the
forefront.
Chris Parri (14:41):
Part of this is revealed in the actions of the
groups pushing theseinitiatives. If you have to
spend millions of dollars inprimary elections to get your
idea across the finish line, ifyou have to hire millions of
dollars worth of lobbyists tosell your stuff to the
legislature in places likeKentucky and. Alaska also very
conservative places, votersrejected these at the polls. So
(15:05):
you see that these are notaligned at all with actual
conservative values. But there'swell moneyed interests that
don't put a lot of value ingovernment and in taxpayer
money, just in general, and theidea that we can actually get
real things done for people andwould instead just kind of take
all that tax money and turn itinto profits for themselves. You
see corporate greed reallycrystallizing in these policies
(15:26):
and attacking states like ours,attacking Texas, Tennessee, all
of these other red states, someof them have rejected them after
they've experienced them. Othersare having a harder time, like
Arizona, trying to unpeel theseawful policies.
Mike Journee (15:42):
Yeah, and it's the dollars that we're talking about
are big. I mean, generally, Ithink you can say across the
nation, about half of everystate's budget is spent on
public education. So they seethose numbers and they say, Hey,
if we can get a piece oftaxpayer dollars in other places
of the budget, why can't we getour hands on that, you know? So
that's a big attraction to folksand the anti government folks
(16:04):
who are in the legislature areperfectly willing to tear down
those institutions before we gettoo far into the details of the
session, guys, I'd like todefine what we mean when we're
talking about vouchers. I thinkone of the best definitions I've
ever heard came recently from areally great panel at the IEA
lobby dinner that you were apart of last weekend. Quinn, I
(16:25):
believe it was Paula Keller fromthe Idaho business for
education, who said it this way.
She said, if you're spendingtaxpayer money on education, and
public schools do not benefitfrom that spending. It's a
voucher.
Quinn Perry (16:37):
Yeah, that definition that Paula uses
actually from Josh Cowan, who isa really well known researcher
on the school voucher movement.
I mean, it's really anyredirection of taxpayer money
towards private and religiouseducation, particularly where
those same institutions aren'thaving to follow any of the
oversight, accountability ortransparency that's guaranteed
(16:58):
and regulated in our publicschools. So the proposals
floating around the legislature,there's now been several
introduced, but they all fitthat bucket. But I will say
that, you know, if you're usingthe governor's four words, which
were fair, accountable,responsible and transparent,
yes, the fart test, as I like tojoke with folks, the proposals
look very different in theirapproaches to those four words.
(17:23):
So even though all bills thathave been introduced are indeed
a voucher bill, their approachescould not look more different.
Mike Journee (17:32):
Yeah, that's right, and I was going to ask
Chris about to a little bitabout that next. So we do have
two bills that are kind of themain contenders for everybody's
attention right now. One wasbrought by Representative Wendy
Horman of Idaho Falls and herally in the Senate. Let me Lori
Denton heart talk out ofmeridian. And then there was
another brought by Senator Davidlent out of Idaho Falls. And
(17:54):
they do, you're right. Quinn,they take two very different tax
in their approach to vouchers.
Chris, I'm going to ask you totalk a little bit about
representative hormones bill,and then Quinn, if you'll talk a
little bit about Senator mittsbill after that, that'd be
great. Give us a little bit of aflavor about how these bills
approach vouchers and where theygo. And I will say
representative hormones Bill wasreintroduced this week in the
house, education, I'm sorry, inthe house Revenue and Taxation
(18:19):
Committee. So Chris talk alittle bit about her bill.
Wouldyou?
Chris Parri (18:25):
Yeah? So Representative hormones
legislation over the pastseveral years has really been
the representation of all of thethings I mentioned before, of
those huge money groups, the bigdonors, the lobbyists, all of
those massive groups that havepushed these policies elsewhere,
Harmon has been the vessel forthat legislation, so she hasn't
(18:46):
changed her proposals very muchover the years, they've always
kind of fit the unaccountable,not fair, irresponsible and
completely opaque set ofprinciples that these big groups
push. So in this iteration, it'sinteresting, Mike, that you
almost said that it wasintroduced in the House
Education Committee, becauseostensibly, this is an education
(19:08):
issue that ought to go throughan education committee. But if
you remember when our goodfriend, representative, Julie
Yamamoto, was chair of HouseEducation, she was not really a
huge fan of these policies. Soto get around the education
committees and potentialcritiques of these policies,
they decided to do a tax creditwhich could go through the rev
and tax committee. So that's thevoucher we're seeing from
(19:32):
representative Horman. Is atuition tax credit, essentially
that would reimburse people fortuition expenses up to $5,000.70
$500 for students with specialneeds. It's not exactly clear
how this would work, how itwould actually accomplish the
stated goal of helping lowincome families afford tuition.
(19:54):
Five grand is not going to getyou very far with much of the
tuition in the state and you.
What working family is going tofront 15 grand for tuition and
hope they get five grand in acouple months from the
government. It's capped as well.
So I don't think we have anyother kind of tax credit in the
state that is trapped. Sothere's a chance that you just
run out of money before you caneven get your reimbursement, and
(20:16):
then suddenly you're infinancial turmoil after having
to count for that five grandtuition credit. So my tin foil
hat is that they'll do this.
They are totally fine with thatfinancial turmoil that these
families might experience whenthey try to pay for tuition, and
then next year, the year after,they'll come back around and
say, look at these families thatwere counting on us to pay them
money for their tuition andcan't afford it. So we have to
(20:38):
expand the program, they'rebasically creating artificial
demand on the backs of familiesthat they are breaking promises
to. And I think that's so gross,but again, tin foil hat, but
it's that's what has played outin other states. So the
reintroduced version ofrepresentative hormones bill
doesn't really change that much.
It more specifically calls outthat these expenses can be used
(20:58):
for homeschool and micro schooland learning pods, and, you
know, igloo schools, I don'tknow, just any kind of
descriptor that you could comeup with. And then there's some
sort of survey that parents haveto fill out that kind of
gestures at the accountabilityarguments we've been making, but
doesn't really do anythingfunctional. So anyways, it's the
same as we've always seen fromrepresentative Horman.
Mike Journee (21:21):
So essentially, Chris, what we're looking at
here is a tax credit that willnot cover the typical cost of a
private school education, andthat would likely only be used
by people who are alreadysending their kids to expensive
private schools, and will not bean enticement for working class
(21:42):
families who want their kids toget a private school education
because it does not make up thedifference in the typical
tuition correct and has zeroaccountability, asks nothing of
the schools that would benefitfrom these tax funds. Well,
Quinn, Okay, Senator Dave Lentzbill it takes a totally
different tack on vouchers. Tellus a little bit about his bill.
Quinn Perry (22:05):
Well, Senator Lenz bill does not create a new and
program, but it expands really,what is an education savings
account that already exists inIdaho law called empowering
parents. So listeners may recallthat in 2021 actually the same
sponsors of the House tax creditbrought the empowering parents
grant program, and originally itincluded private school tuition
(22:28):
at the time that was nonnegotiable for Governor little
and the education stakeholders,but we agreed that a Low Income
Grant Program for educationalexpenses, especially in the
height of The COVID pandemic,was important. It created that
program. So Senator Lenz billexpands the existing empowering
parents program. Right nowyou're capped at $1,000 per
(22:50):
child, and I think 3000 perfamily. This increases that to
5000 per child, with an overallfamily cap of 15,000 and it
includes private school tuition.
It also includes tuition to prekindergarten programs, which is
another stark difference betweenthe House and Senate Bill. But
Senator Lenz approach definitelytakes into the account the
(23:12):
governor's four pillars. SenatorLentz Bill does require private
schools to you know, you have toregister to be eligible. So it's
not a free for all for anyprivate school, home school,
etc. The schools actually dohave to register. And when they
do, they have to attest to someof the following. So for
example, they have to attestthat they are fingerprinting and
(23:33):
background checking theiremployees. They have to follow
special education laws, which,again, just to point out
something Chris had said. Youknow, the platitudes that we
hear often from the provoucherfolks are that like, Oh, this is
to give families a choice and aleg up, but private schools
often deny students withdisabilities, like they are very
open and transparent about that.
(23:53):
So this would require thoseschools to offer special
education. They would also haveto follow the parental rights
laws for Idaho. So that's thelaws that were recently expanded
in the 2023 legislative sessionthat really ensures that parents
have rights to their child'seducation. It also requires the
school to attest to meeting theindoctrination law that was
(24:15):
passed in 2021 so that's maybemore commonly known as the anti
critical race theory law, andthey do have to be accredited,
which in you know to give creditto Senator Lent is critical,
because in states with universalexpansion, which Senator Len's
bill is a use a universal ESA itjust is technically 5% of the
money can go to anyone with anadjusted gross income of 80,000
(24:39):
or above. But we do see a lot instates where these private
schools are popping up in, likestrip malls, or I talk about
this a lot where, like, a publiccharter school was actually
closed by regulators in Arizonabecause they had poor financial
problems, but also 0%proficiency in math, they were
(24:59):
closed by. Regulators inArizona. Then 30 days later,
they just reopened as a privateschool and are receiving, you
know, however much money perstudent. So yeah, Senator Lenz,
Bill certainly takes a differentapproach. But again, our fear
and what I want folks to know isthat it doesn't matter what
income levels you put or the capon spending, or these
(25:21):
accountability requirements, thepro voucher lobby are going to
come for all of it. They'regoing to try to lift the income
eligibility, they're going totry to deregulate, and, you
know, remove oversight, and soas soon as we get these into
place, like the lobbying war,will forever begin to ensure
that more money is going towardsprivate schools with less
regulation and oversight.
Mike Journee (25:42):
Yeah, that's what we've seen all across the
country, wherever they the camelgets its nose in the tent. As
they say, the later iterationsof the bill just continue to
grow and become more expansiveand heat up more of the budget,
budget that should be going topublic schools. And so that's
it's an MO That is very wellworn all across the country, and
(26:02):
you know, frankly, I think thetwo of you have a lot of credit
to take for the fact that thathasn't been the case here in
Idaho yet. The educationstakeholders, the folks that
we've been engaged with, the whowere part of our the great press
conference that we had on IEALobby Day, and have been part of
this conversation all along,deserve a lot of credit. Idaho
(26:24):
is one of the few red states inthe country that has no voucher
program at all because of thatand so and of course, also
because of Governor's littlesprevious rejection of vouchers.
And I wanted to talk a littlebit about that, I think that's a
big factor in the way thisconversation has shaped out.
This year, he started off thelegislative session in the state
(26:46):
of the state saying he wanted tospend about $50 million on some
kind of a school choice program,but his one big caveat to that
was accountability and how we dothat. So I'll talk a little bit
about what accountability means.
I've had some of our IEA membersask this very question of me,
accountability is a watch wordaround this, and as you pointed
(27:07):
out, it's the centerpiece ofSenator Lentz bill, which makes
it probably a little morepalatable than it would be. We
strongly oppose vouchers in anyform at the IEA, and will
continue to do so, but talk alittle bit about this
accountability concept, if youwould. What does that actually
mean when we're talking about avoucher program.
Quinn Perry (27:30):
no bill will ever be able to duplicate the type of
oversight, transparency andaccountability that's guaranteed
in our public schools, right?
And that's because publicschools have been institutions
for a very long time, and a lotof these regulations exist for
lessons learned and ensuringthat we're providing the the
right and appropriate health andsafety and protections of
(27:51):
children. So I thinkaccountability comes in a lot of
different ways, and I'm notgoing to suggest that all
accountability is meaningfulaccountability. There is a ton
of red tape that the statelegislature puts on public
schools for redundant reportingthings that you know, perhaps
they were suspicious aboutinvesting and wanted to know
that return on investment. So anexample, the student eligible
(28:13):
under the voucher also has totake a nationally normed
reference test to ensure thatlearning is occurring. So I
don't like using accountabilityas like, Oh, it's a test that
you take to make sure that theyou know, no, that's the
transparency piece. Are thetaxpayers able to see that this
the that learning is occurringwith their students, right? But
(28:34):
it also is like that dueprocess. It's ensuring that
people are given a fair chanceto have an equitable right to an
education. It means that peoplearen't discriminated against
based on how they show up to theschool house doors. It means
that we're providing a fair andconsistent approach so ensuring
that standards are being taughtand that all children are kind
(28:56):
of progressing at a certainlevel. It ensures that your
teachers are certified, thatthey are, you know, well
trained, they're providedprofessional development. So,
like, I don't even know that youcould, like, encompass
accountability in one area.
Like, we could go down 50different rabbit holes about
what accountability looks like,but it's ensuring that taxpayer
(29:18):
money is going out and thatthere are regulations or
oversight how that money isspent, and particularly how it's
not being spent, meaning thatwe're not sending taxpayer
dollars out that are going tosupport discriminatory practices
against students withdisabilities, or that we're
sending them to institutionsthat aren't even fingerprinting
(29:38):
or background Checking, youknow, employees, and we're not
putting children, you know, inthe hands of predators, again,
with funded by the taxpayers. SoI think that's one way to look
at it, but would love to hearanyone else's opinions.
Mike Journee (29:52):
Yeah, I think that's all great. One of the
ways I think about it as welltoo, Chris, is, you know, every
tax Dollar that is spent in thepublic school system is in some
way either allocated or overseenor regulated, if you will, by an
elected official, someone whohas to be on a ballot, and the
(30:13):
voters of that school districtor that state vote those folks
into place. They are electedofficials who are accountable to
voters, and they're the ones whoare spending these tax dollars,
and voucher program does not dothat, right? Chris, look, not at
all.
Chris Parri (30:30):
And so I think you brought up a good point there,
Mike, like, what happens ourpublic schools? Can you can hold
people accountable directly tothat, right? Do you know what's
going on? It's very transparentwhat's going on in public
schools. And you can go back toyour school board, sorry, Quinn
and unelect, a whole bunch ofthem, if you really want to part
of the lack of accountability,lack of transparency we see in
(30:50):
these voucher programs is thatno one wants to be held
accountable for what theseprivate schools are up to, which
is when a private school islike, Oh, I don't want to
background check out, you know,our employees, and then
legislators are like, and Idon't even want to know who
those employees are. It's like,okay, who do we hold
accountable? Then when somethingterrible happens, right? So
there's, again, it's, it'salmost ridiculous, and it would
(31:12):
be funny if it like, wasn'tlike, staring down our our necks
right now. But yeah, so thelike, type of accountability
that we typically see inconversation the legislature
right now, as Quinn mentioned,background checks, compliance of
parental rights in education,disclosing operating budgets.
Right this goes to the ideathat, like these private
schools, just raise theirtuition immediately as soon as
(31:34):
they get these vouchers, which,of course they would. Why
wouldn't they? For as much lovethe free market gets from
legislatures, they sure lovemessing with it when it serves
their big money. Groups abideby, you know, anti
discrimination, comply withstate laws that prevent
indoctrination test students, asQuinn mentioned, and ensure the
funding goes to low incomefamilies. These are all
(31:56):
prioritized by Idaho voters, butyou also see the lobby groups
pushing vouchers very opposed toessentially every single point
here, which goes again to thepoint like, if you pass Senator
Lenz bill, for example, a morethoughtful approach that's not
going to stop these groups fromcoming back and trying to
explode every single piece ofregulation inside of it. More
point on this too, which I findjust so infuriatingly ironic, is
(32:19):
that the same legislators whoare the most passionate about
this unaccountable voucherlegislation complete black box
of just tossing taxpayer moneyinto a hole along with students,
are the ones that have made thelives of teachers and students
In public school so micromanagedand regulated in the first
(32:43):
place. So the exact samelegislators are the ones are
saying, we need to micromanagewhat flags are in your building
and micromanage every single bitof your curriculum, and yet
they're totally fine with givingtaxpayer money to schools that
have no accountability, notransparency and no regulations.
So again, you just see this biasagainst public schools and then
(33:05):
this complete giveaway toprivate schools.
Mike Journee (33:09):
Yeah, and what?
And one of the things that Ithink I kind of gravitate toward
is the fact that we don't haveany examples of what
accountability looks like in avoucher bill from anywhere else
around the country where this isgoing on. It doesn't exist. And
Chris, you brought up the factthat they don't want to be held
accountable. The folks who areadvocating for vouchers don't
want the parents who are goingto be receiving this, these
public tax dollars, accountablefor how they're spent, which is,
(33:32):
it's an incredible concept tome. Tell us how our listeners
might be able to engage on thisissue. What are some ways that
they might be able to letlawmakers know how they feel
about this?
Quinn Perry (33:45):
Oh, man, well, reach out to them immediately,
whether they're on theserelevant committees or not. This
issue will be the issue of thesession. And you know, I think
unfortunately, with GovernorBrad little kind of setting
aside money in his State of theState address for this, the
likelihood of a voucher billhitting his desk is is going to
be very likely. And so it is soimportant that folks lean in on
(34:09):
the accountability and thattransparency piece. Because I've
been saying this, I thinkwhatever hits his desk likely is
signed into law and will foreverbe the stealing of
accountability, transparency,etc, like our colleagues across
the country, other states, likeArizona, Ohio, Indiana, Florida,
they would be begging for someof the accountability that we're
(34:29):
seeing perhaps in Senate Bill1025, right, like background
checks and fingerprinting. Andwe've learned that you can't go
back and add it, because the outof state lobbyists will push and
push and push against that. Soit's so important and critical
that folks are also, you know,saying to them, we don't support
the redirection of our taxpayerdollars away from public schools
(34:50):
and into the hands ofunaccountable, non transparent
private schools, but thatthey're also leaning in on those
four words of fair, accountable,responsible and transparent
andSo have conversations, pickup the phone. Don't just email.
Like, pick up the phone when youcan leave a voicemail. Try to
get in touch with yourlegislator. Also have like,
dinner table conversations,like, get your friends and
(35:12):
neighbors involved in this. Ithink a lot of people are waking
up to what is actually going tohappen to their neighborhood
public schools once thesevoucher bills become law, it is
so critical that you engage yourcommunities, your friends,
neighbors, your friends atchurch, business, community,
whoever you have to be engagedon this and reach out today to
your legislator.
Chris Parri (35:34):
I would echo everything Quinn said. Another
thing that we've seen throughoutthe years is that some
legislators are kind of cavingto the pressure and saying,
Look, you know, let's just, I'mtired of this conversation. Give
them a tiny voucher and we'llmove on and move forward, or
whatever. When you talk tolegislators, don't let them off
the hook. That's not how beinglegislator works. You don't just
(35:57):
get to make a bad vote and thenget forgiven by every
constituent in your district,right? Hold them accountable to
this and let them know this isnot cost free. This is not a
free vote. You just get to makethat screws over your public
schools, right? You can't dothat. You're a legislator. You
have power. You were elected fora reason, and if you go back on
those promises to your propublic school constituents, you
(36:19):
do not deserve their support inthe next election. I think it's
really, really key that peoplepoint that out, particularly
when, again, only three point, Ijust saw the poll, 3.8% of the
people said that this is apriority, compared to, you know,
well over half of the peoplethat were asking the open ended
questions saying, fix our publicschools in a good way, right? So
(36:41):
I don't know it just it reallymakes me angry when people just
kind of cave to the pressure.
It's like, come on, like,represent Giuliana Moto is a
good example of this. She washappy to lose she I mean,
obviously she would prefer tostill be in office, but she was
happy to be voting the way thatshe knew was right throughout
her entire tenure in thelegislature. And then again, we
(37:01):
had a guy from Arizona, a formerlegislator, who voted for the
ESA because of some of thatpressure, who now says that that
was the biggest regret of hislife. And if he could go back to
the legislature again and redothat, that would be the one vote
at the top of his list that hewould change. So don't let
legislators be that guy. Youknow, it's really frustrating to
see people caved to these kindof things. And oh so more
(37:24):
specifically. So Wendy hormonalwill be in the house revenue Tax
Committee on the House side, andthen Senator Lenz bill will be
in the Senate EducationCommittee on the Senate side. So
those are kind of the committeesto reach out to.
Mike Journee (37:41):
Thank you, Chris.
I appreciate that. And yourpoint underscores elections
matter. Elections matter, andpeople who care about these
issues need to make sure thatthey and their friends and their
family get out and vote, bringgood people to the out of the
legislature. So guys, my lastquestion is pink. Quinn, already
thrusts on us a little bit,where do you think this is all
(38:02):
going to end this year?
Chris Parri (38:06):
I think Speaker Mike Moyle will ensure that a
voucher bill hits the governor'sdesk. So I think there's still a
lot of time left in thelegislative session for these
policy debates to fold out. Ourhope, of course, is that the
legislature wakes up to thesevoucher schemes and reject them
wholeheartedly, but we know thatthat is an unlikely thing, so it
just really encouraged folks tolean in on what that means. But
(38:28):
I think there's still a lot oftime to be had between now and
then, so just reach out to folksand really get them engaged.
Maybe I'm a little moreoptimistically Quinn, but just
like barely, I would say, Ithink that there's still a
chance we get nothing because ofthe way the conversation has
shifted. Senator Lentz billgives us a chance to compare and
(38:49):
contrast these two verydifferent pieces of legislation,
and the more that we canemphasize the things missing
from representative hormonesbill, which is again on the
House side, that is Mike Moylespreferred voucher bill. And the
more we can say, Why are thesevery popular things missing from
this bill? I think the more wecan kind of pit those two bills
(39:11):
against each other, the higherour chance of getting nothing
goes. So we really need toemphasize that contrast and make
sure again, that theparticularly folks in the Senate
remains strong and committed toan accountable bill or no bill
at all, and make sure thegovernor, as well, doesn't if
you know if representativehormones bill, as it currently
(39:31):
is written, hits his desk againthat does not pass Quinn's fart
test, as she said, the fair,accountable, responsible and
transparency tests that thegovernor laid out, and so he
should not be allowed to signthat bill without facing his
constituents and explaining whyhe's signing it. I think it's
really key that we hold thesefolks accountable to the things
(39:52):
they said, and don't getdistracted by rhetoric from the
pro voucher lobby groups.
Mike Journee (40:00):
Yeah. And the governor was very clear in his
State of the State address thathe would not support something
that did not have accountabilitymeasures similar to what public
schools face. So thanks to bothof you so much for this
conversation. It was a good one.
I'm sure there's going to be alot of developments around this
as things go forward, becauseexpertise is second to none, and
(40:21):
I want to thank you both forwhat you do down the State
House.
Quinn Perry (40:26):
Thanks for having us.
Chris Parri (40:28):
Thanks, Mike,
Mike Journee (40:32):
thank you for listening to this episode of the
IAEA reporter podcast, andthanks to Quinn Perry, the Idaho
School Board Association and theIAEA is Chris Perry and Matt
Compton for joining us. Pleasewatch for updates about new
podcast episodes on IA socialmedia channels or sign up to
receive IAEA reporter emailupdates on our
website@idahoea.org I'm MikeJournee, and as always, I hope
(40:55):
you join me in thanking Idahopublic school educators for
everything they do, first aidstudents, families, public
schools, you.
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