June 24, 2025 • 34 mins
What happens when toxic furnace fumes accidentally become part of your album's creative process? M Ross Perkins shares this surreal discovery and much more as we delve into his methodical approach to DIY music production.
Growing up with a baseball bat as his imaginary guitar and the crushing disappointment of a shattered Chipmunks record, Perkins' musical journey reflects his systematic yet deeply thoughtful approach to song craft. He reveals how his latest album "What's The Matter M Ross?" came together under bizarre circumstances - with furnace exhaust pumping directly above his writing desk for months. When finally fixed, his bandmates reported sudden clarity during rehearsals, a strange twist that perfectly captures the unpredictable nature of artistic creation.
Perkins takes us behind the curtain of his unique production method, where he records all drum tracks across an entire album before moving to bass, then guitars, and finally vocals. This approach allows him to maintain consistency while maximizing efficiency in his small studio space. He demonstrates remarkable craftsmanship in how he handles tempo, watching a BPM counter while playing claves to allow natural fluctuations within a controlled range - creating recordings that breathe with human authenticity.
Beyond technical insights, our conversation explores deeper philosophical territory. Perkins eloquently dismantles the myth of complete originality in music, comparing it to claiming sole credit for your car while ignoring thousands of workers and generations of innovation behind it. This perspective frames his approach as a "lifelong learner" of his craft, constantly refining his systematic techniques while remaining open to new influences and ideas.
Whether you're a musician looking to improve your own DIY production or simply fascinated by the creative process, Perkins' insights offer a masterclass in thoughtful music creation. Listen now to discover how one artist balances methodical precision with creative spontaneity - even when toxic fumes are accidentally part of the equation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
M Ross Perkins (00:01):
Call a date with a state named Shane and Saul.
So quick it can get.
So sick and cold.
It hits you when you're havingfun, when you're feeling you're
a lucky one, and all at once asad cascade comes and says
(00:24):
you're a lucky one, and all atonce a sad cascade comes and
says you're done.
And now you can go and see
colleyc (00:33):
Welcome back to season five here Coming to an end
slowly, but we'll still have afew handful of episodes coming
out, and today I have a greatguest, m ross perkins, coming in
from ohio.
Is that correct, uh?
M Ross Perkins (00:49):
that's right, yeah, that's right.
Just across, just across the uhthe border from you that's
right.
colleyc (00:55):
So we were just talking about that before we hopped on
our long-standing friendship andour open border policy and how
that is Neighborly love for eachother.
M Ross Perkins (01:05):
That's right.
colleyc (01:05):
That's right, the extended love from Canada going
down to Ohio.
M Ross Perkins (01:10):
And it goes the other way too, believe me.
colleyc (01:13):
Right on.
So, I'd love starting these offjust a little bit about how it
all started for you with musicand I mean, I read some stuff
about how your your parents kindof like gave you that
grandfather teaching of of great60s psyched ale music, and I
find that a lot in your musicmaybe a little less so in the in
(01:37):
the latest record, and we'llget to that but where were some
of your key points in in as youwere growing up that you can
remember where music was wassomething that you were always
going to have to do I justremember performing you know,
for pretending I was performing,so that that's like a key stage
(01:58):
.
M Ross Perkins (01:58):
I remember like locking the door to my bedroom,
being maybe five or six yearsold, and, grab, I had like a
baseball bat and I was playingit like a guitar, you know.
And and I remember fantasizingthat the uh, one of the
neighbors back behind us waslike a music producer and he was
like hey, that kid over therehas got, he's got he's got the
(02:21):
chops, you know.
And so I remember like makebelieving that when I was a
really young kid so that's likea stage, but yeah, you know.
And so I remember like makebelieving that when I was a
really young kid, so that's likea stage, but yeah, you know.
Coming across, uh, van morrisonseems like a place where things
really something clicked.
Um, certainly magical mysterytour.
I think I was in about thethird grade when I came up, came
upon the later beetle material.
(02:41):
Uh, yeah, you know that stuff.
colleyc (02:45):
There were always these little marks where it just felt
like, yeah, this is just Icould, I want to do what these
people are doing right, and Imean I don't want to um unbury
old memories, but I heard on apodcast that there was a record
that you had that you droppedand it shattered into a million
pieces and you had asked yourolder siblings can we glue it
(03:10):
back together?
M Ross Perkins (03:10):
Yeah.
colleyc (03:11):
What?
What was that record and whatwas your?
M Ross Perkins (03:13):
I think it was a chip, it was a chipmunks record
.
I yeah, it was real.
You're getting really into thetraumatic stuff right out of the
gate.
colleyc (03:20):
Well, Barry, you answered.
M Ross Perkins (03:24):
Yeah, gate, well , bury it after you answer it
all, right, yeah, the thechipmunks, it was, uh, chipmunks
a go-go.
Um, yeah, that that record hadall these 60s songs on it.
It was cool and I I rememberbeing really little, you know,
like I don't even maybe fouryears old or something.
It's one of my earliestmemories is dropping that record
and uh but yeah, the traumathat ensued yeah, and then it
(03:46):
led to a lifetime of trying topiece that record back together.
You know, figuratively,spiritually, psychologically,
totally.
I'm still working on it, chris,I'm still working on it.
colleyc (03:58):
Well, I'm here to support you in that.
Um, thank you I.
I remember that record becauseI I a Chipmunk fan too, because
I thought, the melodies were solike good Like it was like yeah,
like.
M Ross Perkins (04:10):
I mean sure their voices were sped up by a
hundred.
colleyc (04:14):
Right right.
M Ross Perkins (04:15):
I think the foundation of it was Weirdly
well-recorded and stuff, yeah,man, yeah, that got me into 60s
pop music, you know.
And uh, you know, yeah, therewere just all these little
things throughout the childhoodwhere it was just like, man, I
love that sound, I love thatvibe Um, not that I really like
(04:36):
set out when I sit down to write, like I want to write something
that sounds like it came out,you know, in the six, sixties or
seventies or something you knowthat's it's never.
You know the 60s or 70s orsomething you know that's never.
You know, I don't, I don't knowthat anybody should sit down
and try to try to do that, youknow, but it comes out sounding
that way because you just people, you know we write and and
produce what we want to listento.
(04:56):
You know that's what everybodyis doing and so genuinely what I
like is is you know, is thestuff that sounds like the music
that I make, or at least I tryto make music that sounds like
the stuff that I like, you know?
colleyc (05:12):
And when you first started writing songs, what
songs were swirling in your headof I want to write this kind of
song, or, you know, I want.
I want it to sound like that.
Like, were there songs in thosefirst early writings that that
you recall?
M Ross Perkins (05:30):
oh man, I mean, I think, yeah, I remember
wanting to sound like, uh, youknow, a country, kind of a
country artist, you know.
I think they call it like neatnew traditionalist country or
neo-traditionalist country inthe late 80s and early 90s.
That was kind of, you know, fora period of time, when you know
I'm a little boy, that's what Ilike.
(05:51):
For a period of time I liked,you know, I wanted to sound like
third eye blind or something.
You know, when I was, you knowwhen I was in like fifth grade
or whatever.
So, yeah, you know, it alwayskind of changed.
I mean, I think at one pointwhen I was in middle school or
something, you know, you, Iwanted to sound like Eddie
Vedder.
I thought, like ever, I wantedto make my voice sound real
(06:13):
gruff, you know, and kind oflike, you know, put this, this,
you know, spice on it.
It's kind of silly.
Looking back, I mean, yeah, youtry to imitate, you know, and,
and there's nothing wrong withit, that's how kids figure
things out, you know.
Thank god I didn't have youknow, that the internet wasn't
what it, what it is now, becauseyou know who knows.
(06:34):
I mean I would have probablygotten trolled to death, you
know, posting some of the stuffthat I was doing, you know, and
I would you know it was a littlekid, uh, but yeah, that's how
it all came, you know, came up.
colleyc (06:48):
And how do you?
What's your process like?
Like, how do you get an idea orinspired, get the song kind of
like you know, constructed itkind of down?
Like, how do you go about that?
Do you usually start with ariff, guitar, guitar, and then
lyrics come, or do you have aline that comes to you like how
(07:09):
do you go about building yoursongs?
M Ross Perkins (07:14):
well, I mean honestly the best ones, kind of
start with it.
I I mean, I hate to give awaymy trade secrets here.
This is proprietary stuff.
colleyc (07:22):
You know well, don't really no secrets just for this
show, I'll do it exclusive herefor the first time.
M Ross Perkins (07:33):
That's right, m ross, no, the best songs exactly
, yeah, the best ones, I feellike sound like, uh well, they
start with the title.
You know if I can come up witha good title, or even just like
not even the title but the main.
You know line of the chorusRight, which doesn't necessarily
(07:53):
need to be the title, but oftenit is.
But you know that that's it.
If I can do that, then thewhole song gets built around
that, and that's when it's likeOK, this is a really effective
composition.
You know, in terms of pop, whatpop music is supposed to do.
colleyc (08:09):
You know, right, um, but yeah, you know there's a
yeah.
Is there a formula that youfeel that your writing process
follows, or does it tend to varydepending on the album?
You know the time of the dayyou might write like outside
influences.
Do those come into play?
M Ross Perkins (08:29):
there is, I guess I mean a bit of a formula
in the sense that you know, whenyou're trying to write pop
music, there's there, there's aum, there are sequences of
information that work reallywell.
So when you you know there areformulaic things that you do in
that way, but that's just thecraft.
That's not really formulaic inthe sense that, okay, I always
(08:51):
sit down at a piano and I alwaysstart with this, or I always
use a metronome or you knowsomething like that, but it yeah
, I mean things end up.
You you learn little tools ofthe trade that um are really
useful and they do make forreally effective songwriting.
You know, um, somebody thattalks a lot about that is Andrea
(09:11):
Stolpe.
Andrea Stolpe is a, she's asongwriter, but she's also a
professor.
She teaches at Berkeley Um and,you know, just teaches
songwriting, has written acouple of books too, and she
talks about those like littleformulaic things that you can do
.
So once I kind of encounteredsome of that, I did start using
it, uh, cause it's hard not toit's it works so well some of
(09:35):
that.
colleyc (09:35):
I did start using it, uh, because it's hard not to.
It works so well, right, right,and are those like kinds of
things that you employ?
Like, do those happen, likeconsciously, like are, or is it
when you're kind of like hittinga wall and you're, you know,
struggling around?
Okay, am I getting this?
Is this the right way?
I should be doing it, like, howdo those come into play?
Like, is it when you'requestioning, like you know,
(09:58):
maybe this song is no, you know,I'll shelve it versus.
M Ross Perkins (10:02):
I think that's why a lot of people go to
formulaic type of you know,types of methods and stuff like
that is like oh, when you'restuck, here's some tips and
tricks to, you know, spur somecreative thing.
So they use it for invention,which is really cool.
I mean, the invention stage is,you know, yeah, that is, it's
hard to start that part, thatpart of a writing process, um,
(10:25):
but I mean I guess, so it's alittle bit of both.
So it's what's unconscious isthe coming up with the little
hooky kind of line or whateverthe lyric that's like oh, that's
the song that is going to bebased around this idea.
That's what comes kind of justnaturally while you're driving
your car, right, and then whenyou sit down to really turn that
(10:46):
into something, that's when youcan employ these little kind of
methods.
I mean, I guess it's good togive an example of like what I'm
talking about, because I'mbeing a little bit vague.
But you know, like AndreaStolpe talks about toggling, and
this is something that isreally cool that you do start to
notice in pop songwriting whenyou listen to really successful
(11:06):
hit songs, the toggling betweeneither different speeds, for
example, like you know, if yourverse is like really rapid, like
, then maybe your chorus shouldbe really slow and you toggle to
a like, the, the, the like, letthe notes ring out, right.
That's one form of toggling.
(11:26):
You can also toggle in yourlyrics so you can kind of toggle
back and forth between zoomingin on a subject and zooming out
of a subject, and your versesmight toggle back and forth.
You know, in verb tenses youcan toggle verb tenses.
There's all kinds of thingsthat you can do like that to
show contrast.
So that's like kind of just alittle practical stuff you start
(11:46):
doing as you're crafting itafter you've got the initial
idea.
At least me, that's what I do.
colleyc (11:51):
Yeah, no, I love it.
I love that example too.
It's great, um, because I oftentalk to starting artists right
that maybe have a handful ofsingles out and they're trying
to figure this stuff out right.
So I ask a question like thatto them and they're like well,
I'm figuring it out.
You know, like they're, theyhaven't had enough experience
(12:12):
with it to be able to verbalizewhat they might be doing.
M Ross Perkins (12:17):
You have to make it like a lifelong process.
To constantly be figuring outnew things in the same way that
you know, like a physician orsomething needs to constantly be
like abreast of the latest andmost contemporary research on a
given subject.
I mean, like an artist shouldprobably be doing the same thing
when it comes to just craft, um, or whatever that means you
(12:40):
know for the artist.
But to always just be kind ofin that process, I mean in that
beginner's mind uh mentality ofjust like I'm, I'm a lifelong
learner of this, this thing thatI'm trying to do, you know.
colleyc (12:52):
Yeah, oh, I like that, I like that and it's, it's, it's
very um, it rings true alsothat it is something you have to
continuously practice your,your craft and adjust, and maybe
there's new things that comeout, new technology or whatever,
and and and being open to thepossibilities anyway, um, not
necessarily having to change allthe time.
(13:14):
So that'd be a bit exhausting.
Yeah, it would.
So.
When you first started, youwere very much a DIY artist in
the sense that you dideverything on your own.
Am I accurate in saying that,amos?
M Ross Perkins (13:30):
Yeah, and that's still true.
I mean, as far as recordings go, now I play live with a backing
band, cause I mean I did thatby myself for years too, and
that was okay and it was, it hadits.
You know, there were there werepros to doing that, but it it
also was really limiting.
There were just so many songs Icouldn't perform because I was
(13:51):
by myself.
You know, not everythingtranslates so well to an, to a
soloist, you know.
And so but yeah, in terms of therecordings, I've always been
kind of a DIY type.
I have made recordings withother people, though, and I've
I've never, but I've neverreleased any of those recordings
(14:11):
.
So I've made them, but I'venever, but I've never released
any of them.
So I've made them, but I'venever put any out.
Uh, yeah, I prefer catalog ohit's not like terribly hefty it,
you know, compared to man.
There are some people I knowwho just write and write and
write, but, um, yeah, I mean,recording has always been
something that I really preferto do by myself.
I just don't really like.
(14:31):
I don't mind having some helpin the studio, but I don't want
anybody around when I'm cuttinganything.
Um, I don't want anybody aroundduring the mixing process to be
torturous, to sit here andlisten to me mix.
You know what I mean.
It's a nightmare.
Somebody's sitting for ninehours while I'm like looping the
same 25 seconds.
Yeah, it's absurd, you knowtotally so there's really, you
(14:54):
know, I just don't really see alot of the, a lot of reason to
have anybody around when I'mworking on stuff in the studio
right, right and and the latest,so it came out to this year,
when we get the right month, may, exactly.
colleyc (15:06):
Yeah, it was.
M Ross Perkins (15:06):
Yeah, yeah, actually, yeah just a, actually
a few weeks ago yeah, uh, what'sthe matter?
colleyc (15:12):
m ross?
Yeah, um, great record.
I mean it really kind ofreminds me a lot of teenage fan
club.
M Ross Perkins (15:17):
Like I listen to it, I'm like man, everybody
keeps saying that and that's socool.
That's like really really cool.
And I mean, truth be told, I'venever really listened to
teenage fan club and I soliterally recently I was like I
gotta see what what everybody'stalking about.
And I see exactly whateverybody's talking.
It's really a nice comparison.
They're very good.
So, yeah, no, that's cool, likeall these I've had.
(15:38):
You're like I don't know.
There have been a number ofpeople who've made that
comparison with this album.
Um, so that's cool.
It like led me into some somekind of new stuff that I hadn't
really checked out before but,it's always cool to like find
things they're like oh okay,like I'm not the only person
doing that for sure.
colleyc (15:55):
Well, somebody had mentioned to me too.
They're like there's so manymusicians out there, there's
only so many chords that you cancreate, right, like people are
gonna be making music forever,like yeah, it's always gonna be
a somewhat of a repetition, oruh, I mean, you're taking stuff
from somewhere there there's.
No, it's not an infinitepossibility Borrowed?
M Ross Perkins (16:17):
I mean, yeah, everything is borrowed.
I mean, and you know, when Ilistened to teenage fan club, is
somebody who is like neverreally gotten into teenage fan
club?
You know, when I listen it'slike I hear what they're
borrowing from you know, youknow, and if I listen to that
stuff then I'll hear whatthey're borrowing from you know,
you know, and if I listen tothat stuff then I'll hear what
they're borrowing from you knowthere's, there's really I, yeah,
(16:37):
I always talk about like howthis kind of myth of creativity,
this like you know it's, it'ssilly.
In the same way that, like youknow, to look at like your
automobile and say like, well,this is my car, you know sort of
neglects, and say like, well,this is my car, you know sort of
(16:58):
neglects that like thousandsand thousands of people's work
went into the manufacturer ofthat car.
And I don't I don't mean evenon a physical sense, I mean
going back in time, you knowgenerations.
I mean we're talking.
Maybe you know you could arguethat millions of people's labor
went into production of theMillions of people's labor went
into production of the you know.
So to kind of call anything yourown is pretty, you know it's a
(17:20):
little naive, you know, andmusic works the same way, so
it's like you know, to, tolisten to my own music and not
and think that that came, youknow, solely out of my brain,
like I'm God or something isjust a little bit arrogant,
great, great.
colleyc (17:33):
You know, solely out of my brain, like I'm God or
something, is just a little bitarrogant, right, right.
And looking at this record with, maybe you know, a few weeks of
like you get so saturated withit.
The release date comes, therelease date goes.
Maybe there's a show.
Like, how are you feeling now?
Kind of like with that the bighunk of this journey, of this
(17:53):
record, kind of you've done it,it's there it's in the world
it's in the air.
There's no stopping it anymore.
It's not contained on a cd oran lp.
It's, it's a part of the ether.
How are your feelings aboutlike?
Did it achieve what you wouldhope to achieve with it?
M Ross Perkins (18:09):
man, that's a.
That's a.
That's a really good question.
That's like a.
That's an intense question.
I yeah, um, this part of theprocess I think a lot of artists
would relate to this.
There's like a part of yourprocess where, yeah, after
you've released something thattook you like two years to make,
um, you get this kind of briefglint of this magical, kind of
(18:36):
celebratory feeling, but then,really quickly, that is replaced
by, you know, like a number ofother feelings that come up, and
some of them are are kind ofdark.
You know, some of them feel alittle bit.
You know, it's, it's all.
It's like a postpartumdepression, not to, you know,
compare it to something that'svery I've heard that before I'll
tell you.
But you know it is it's totally,you know, yeah, I mean it's,
(19:00):
it's an, it's an interestingcomparison, so like, yeah, you,
you don't really know what to dowith yourself.
Um, you, you wonder what thismeans.
Now that it's done, you know,it's, it's kind of, yeah, it's,
it's complicated it, you know.
I think that if, um, yeah, ifsomebody listens to it and they
(19:21):
kind of derive, you know, anykind of thing out of it that
that brings um any kind ofwisdom or peace, any kind of
calmness to somebody's life,then I mean there it is, then
it's done, then it's just go onto the next album.
I mean that if you just set yourbar, like right there, which is
(19:43):
a great place to set your bar,you know some would be like,
well, it's setting the barreally low.
I don't think so.
I think that's setting the barjust as high as anybody ought to
set the bar for themselves, youknow.
And then, like, give yourselfthat grace and say, well, if
that's what I get, if one personlistened to it and had a great
experience or something, or ifit just supplemented an existing
(20:04):
experience they were having ina way that that enhanced it,
benefited it, made it more umdealable, you know, made it made
it more, um, dealable, you know, made it, made it easier for
them to cope with it.
Um then, then there you go,that's it then.
Yeah, then my record worked.
colleyc (20:20):
I move on to the next one and try to do the exact same
thing again, and that's justkind of where where I'm at with
it right, and when you'recreating records, do you you
have a plan before with kind oflike an overarching kind of
package that you want to see itin, or is it really just come as
(20:41):
the songs come out and it justbuilds over time?
How do you approach when you'relooking at a new project of
okay, I'm on to my next record?
Can you talk about that mindset?
M Ross Perkins (20:52):
a bit.
Yeah, it's, it's reallysystematic.
Everything I do I try to beextremely systematic.
It just works the best.
For me it's, it's.
You know, everybody figures outwhat works.
I mean, for a lot of.
For some artists, it might workto have like scattered
notebooks full of stuff you know, and they're all over your
apartment and they're laying allover the place and you got to
dig through 10 of them to find,you know, that lyric that you're
(21:13):
thinking of and that works andthat you know whatever.
And then you know, on my sideof it, I like everything to be
super systematic, in the sameway that you know, like when
you're doing the dishes, like itmakes sense to wash the dishes
in a certain order, and you findthat 30 minutes of dishwashing.
(21:34):
Actually you get a lot moredone if you do it in a certain
order, right, okay.
So like I get that, that is alot like what it feels like to
put, to put a record togetherthat, like when I'm doing it by
myself, I have to take intoaccount the most expedient or
efficient way to do that,because otherwise I mean a
record with 12 songs on it couldbe a nightmare to produce If I
(21:57):
had to, you know.
So imagine this.
Imagine I'm like, okay, I'mgoing to play every instrument
on this record on every song,okay, and I've got 12 songs.
Now I want to start withwhatever.
Pick song number one, okay, andI'm going to do the drums, then
I'm going to do the bass, thenI'm going to do the guitars,
then I'm going to do you knowwhatever, percussion, keyboards,
(22:17):
vocals.
Well, I'm going to layereverything up, okay, and then
I'm going to then what, I'mgoing to mix it, and then then
I'm done with that song, andthen I moved to song number two.
Just a nightmare to me.
It sounds like a nightmare,right.
colleyc (22:31):
Like having to do the same process 12 times, 12 more.
Yeah, exactly and repeat.
M Ross Perkins (22:36):
Yes, so by, like you know, time number, you know
, by song five, you're likefatigued you know, I mean
because so it doesn't reallymake sense.
So some people then they say,okay, well, you do all the
tracking and then you do all themixing.
But it's like, okay, am I goingto do the same thing Sans
mixing?
And then I do it every.
You know drums, bass, guitars,all of it.
You know, do that 12 times.
That to me is a littleridiculous.
(22:58):
So what I do is I just I get mysequence, I know what songs are
going to be on the record, andthat part of the process is like
, before an instrument reallyeven gets touched, you know,
I've got this idea.
I mean for tracking, that is I.
I have this idea of what thesequence is.
So I know my 12 songs, whatever,I will sit down and do all 12
(23:22):
drums.
So I have like two days, three,maybe three days where I just
do nothing but drums.
So you know my studio.
You're also working in smallspaces too, you know.
So it's like you have to kindof take into account that.
So, rather than tear everythingdown and have to, you know
whatever you have to move thingsaround.
That you know I.
I set my drums up and I get themdialed in exactly the way I
(23:43):
want, and then I do 12 drumtracks over the course of two or
three days.
Then I've got bass day, andbass day I do 12 or 13 bass
tracks.
And then I've got guitar weekand it's like a week of just
doing all my guitars and I justdo that until finally the vocals
usually the last thing that Ido.
And that is cool too, becausethen you get your backing track
(24:04):
sounding really nice withoutthat vocal kind of you know,
vying for your attention at alltimes while you're working on it
, right, you know.
And do you build it like arounda click track?
You know, vying for yourattention at all times while
you're working on it, right you?
colleyc (24:12):
know and do you build it like around a click track,
like you have, like you'll playthe song and then that's the
foundation on which you'llrecord the drums and like, how
do you, if you?
M Ross Perkins (24:22):
know, if you use a click you end up it.
It sounds cool and everything,whatever, but it like it's.
It's very robotic, it's justvery.
You know it's too locked andeven if you don't perceive it,
you perceive it.
You are subconsciouslyperceiving that that did not
mathematically get off track atany point during that three
(24:45):
minutes.
You just listen.
I mean, it really feelsconstricted and you can feel the
the kind of life get siphonedout of a recording really
quickly when you record it thatway.
Um, but man, so what I do?
Yeah, it's weird, I mean it'sif you, you have to allow for
certain fluctuation of time andso like, because nothing in in
(25:08):
life, really in life, reallydoesn't possess this quality of
ebb and and and flow, right, so,like you know, you want your
recording to kind of sound likethe world it exists in, you know
, and so like.
Um, what I do?
Again, trade secrets here.
colleyc (25:27):
I can't believe I'm spilling this my my team is
going to be livid but here'syou'll have to have a
conversation with yourself aftereither yeah, I'm going to
really regret this.
M Ross Perkins (25:41):
I?
Uh, so what I do is I put alittle bpm counter on.
Uh, like you know my on logic.
I use logic.
But I get a bpm counter andthen I've got claves or
something, just anything thatcan make a clicking sound.
And I know roughly I'll use aclick track to determine what
(26:05):
general speed I want the song tobe.
So I'll turn a little metronomeon and then I'll sing the song.
I'll go take a very you knowroughly that's where I want it
and then I'll get rid of thatmetronome and then I'll sing the
song.
I'll go take a very you knowroughly that's where I want it,
and then I'll get rid of thatmetronome.
And then I look at the bpmcounter on the screen while I
sing along the song and tick,tick, tick with it and I try to
keep that bpm plus or minusthree or four beats per minute
(26:27):
in the range.
So what ends up happening is,when I need to speed it up
because it's intense, I canspeed it up a little bit and I
see that number go up and then Ican kind of moderate it.
So I'm doing that very, veryintentionally as I build, and
that is the first thing thatevery recording starts with is
me performing the song withbasically claves, just tick,
(26:48):
tick, tick, while I sing,watching the beat counter.
That's amazing.
colleyc (26:52):
That's how I do it yeah , I love, I love your, your
process for that like that's.
Because when you're, whenyou're the only person right,
like it's I mean, if you hadsomebody else there you could,
you know, like you know how youcould play along and they could
do the drum, whatever but whenyou're doing it all yourself,
you have to think about allthese little things that you
(27:12):
would normally just wouldn'teven have to think about.
M Ross Perkins (27:16):
Yeah, exactly, you take for granted that it's
so cool.
I love it.
colleyc (27:20):
So, as we kind of come to a close here, we're going to
listen to Spiritual Kick at theend.
Based on what you were saying,can you share a little bit about
this song how?
How it was born and it's it's.
It's one of the big singles offthe record too, is that, is
(27:40):
that correct?
M Ross Perkins (27:40):
It is, yeah, it is yeah, I wrote this in a in my
studio space.
I have a rented studio space inDayton and at that time, ok,
I'd been in the studio space forseveral months writing this
record and I'm spending longdays in there.
I'm in this like kind ofunventilated small space at my
(28:03):
desk, I'm writing this music andthe whole time.
I just moved into the space andit had kind of a weird sort of
metallic smell to the space andI just thought it's an old
building, it's just it.
It's an old building, it's justit's old.
What do you know?
What do you expect?
Didn't really think anything ofit, wrote this entire album,
right.
And then one day I mentioned tothe people who you know
maintain the space.
(28:23):
I said, hey, this is weirdmetallic smell up there.
It's kind of odd.
I think maybe you should checkit out.
They, uh, they call up afurnace guy.
Furnace guy comes out andinforms me that toxic furnace
exhaust fumes have been beingpumped directly into my space
through a vent, literally abovethe writing desk.
(28:45):
I mean, it is directly abovethe writing desk, talking for
months Chris.
So I'm in the middle of afurnace stupor, I mean you could
call it, I'm on like a benderan hvac bender okay and did this
add to the trippiness of?
The yes, yes.
Well, when they fixed it, myband came in to rehearse and
(29:06):
they I I swear to you I hadthree other guys say they felt
like they could see their lyricsheets better about midway
through the practice.
They were like I feel like I'vegot a certain clarity.
colleyc (29:19):
That is wild man.
M Ross Perkins (29:21):
Yeah, so that's the story of how Spiritual Cake
was born.
colleyc (29:26):
Well, when we listen to it, we'll listen for the yeah,
listen for the fumes.
Well, I just want to say Ireally, really appreciate your
time.
Um, I've loved these storiesand the little technical and
like I love that stuff.
Um, and you just tell it sowell.
You're such a great uh, thankyou a great storyteller, which
(29:48):
makes you a great artistquestions yeah, well, thank you,
I appreciate it and and greatrecord and and keep it up.
Is there stuff um coming downthe pipe for 2025 that you can
share with us?
M Ross Perkins (29:59):
um, maybe, on the road in ohio.
We've got a lot of uh dates inohio coming up and uh, you know
we stick to.
We stick to our beloved uhbuckeye state down here, um,
kind of you know, just becauseit's uh, it's a great place to
be and we like it um, but we do.
Yeah, we've got uh, hopefullysome, we've got high hopes to
(30:20):
one day uh visit the land of thefree up there too with the
north.
colleyc (30:24):
So absolutely always the home of the brave.
We will take you guys care ofyou.
M Ross Perkins (30:29):
By the way, home of the brave, we're past the
story.
Yeah, yeah, we've.
We're passing the torch to youguys.
It's, uh, it's a heavy burden.
Carry it well, my friends.
colleyc (30:45):
Well, I appreciate you so much.
I wish you all the best withthis great new record and I hope
to one day see a show, and ifyou have new stuff coming out
and you want to chat ever again,it would be an absolute
pleasure.
This has been a great, greatconversation, so thank you.
M Ross Perkins (31:02):
Likewise.
Likewise Looking forward tonext time, Chris Thanks.
Right on, he's a guy on aspiritual kick.
His body's all out to market.
(31:23):
He's got a little string ofbeats.
Well, don't try till you knockit.
Yeah, he's a newfound devotee.
He's a guy On a spiritual kick.
He's working on his bodhicitta.
(31:45):
He's working on his reiki chi.
He's digging the back of ourguitar.
Baby, it takes a lot of energyto be a guy.
I'm a spiritual king.
He's a guy, I'm a spiritualking.
(32:10):
I'm a spiritual king.
I keep trying just to find somekind of peace.
And everybody's saying, oh my,my, so deep, so deep.
(32:47):
Guitar solo.
He's trying just to find somekind of peace.
And everybody's saying, oh my,my, so deep, so deep.
He's gone and transcendedwanting.
(33:16):
He's gone and set his ego free.
He's gone beyond the wheel ofsuffering.
Yeah, and all the girls aregoing crazy For a guy On a
spiritual case.
He's a guy on a spiritual care.
He's a guy on a spiritual care.
(33:40):
He's a guy on a spiritual care.
He's a guy on a spiritual care.
Spiritual Care is brought toyou by God.
On Spiritual Care.
Call a date with a state named Shane and Saul.
So quick it can get.
So sick and cold.
It hits you when you're havingfun, when you're feeling you're
a lucky one, and all at once asad cascade comes and says
(00:24):
you're a lucky one, and all atonce a sad cascade comes and
says you're done.
And now you can go and see
colleyc (00:33):
Welcome back to season five here Coming to an end
slowly, but we'll still have afew handful of episodes coming
out, and today I have a greatguest, m ross perkins, coming in
from ohio.
Is that correct, uh?
M Ross Perkins (00:49):
that's right, yeah, that's right.
Just across, just across the uhthe border from you that's
right.
colleyc (00:55):
So we were just talking about that before we hopped on
our long-standing friendship andour open border policy and how
that is Neighborly love for eachother.
M Ross Perkins (01:05):
That's right.
colleyc (01:05):
That's right, the extended love from Canada going
down to Ohio.
M Ross Perkins (01:10):
And it goes the other way too, believe me.
colleyc (01:13):
Right on.
So, I'd love starting these offjust a little bit about how it
all started for you with musicand I mean, I read some stuff
about how your your parents kindof like gave you that
grandfather teaching of of great60s psyched ale music, and I
find that a lot in your musicmaybe a little less so in the in
(01:37):
the latest record, and we'llget to that but where were some
of your key points in in as youwere growing up that you can
remember where music was wassomething that you were always
going to have to do I justremember performing you know,
for pretending I was performing,so that that's like a key stage
(01:58):
.
M Ross Perkins (01:58):
I remember like locking the door to my bedroom,
being maybe five or six yearsold, and, grab, I had like a
baseball bat and I was playingit like a guitar, you know.
And and I remember fantasizingthat the uh, one of the
neighbors back behind us waslike a music producer and he was
like hey, that kid over therehas got, he's got he's got the
(02:21):
chops, you know.
And so I remember like makebelieving that when I was a
really young kid so that's likea stage, but yeah, you know.
And so I remember like makebelieving that when I was a
really young kid, so that's likea stage, but yeah, you know.
Coming across, uh, van morrisonseems like a place where things
really something clicked.
Um, certainly magical mysterytour.
I think I was in about thethird grade when I came up, came
upon the later beetle material.
(02:41):
Uh, yeah, you know that stuff.
colleyc (02:45):
There were always these little marks where it just felt
like, yeah, this is just Icould, I want to do what these
people are doing right, and Imean I don't want to um unbury
old memories, but I heard on apodcast that there was a record
that you had that you droppedand it shattered into a million
pieces and you had asked yourolder siblings can we glue it
(03:10):
back together?
M Ross Perkins (03:10):
Yeah.
colleyc (03:11):
What?
What was that record and whatwas your?
M Ross Perkins (03:13):
I think it was a chip, it was a chipmunks record
.
I yeah, it was real.
You're getting really into thetraumatic stuff right out of the
gate.
colleyc (03:20):
Well, Barry, you answered.
M Ross Perkins (03:24):
Yeah, gate, well , bury it after you answer it
all, right, yeah, the thechipmunks, it was, uh, chipmunks
a go-go.
Um, yeah, that that record hadall these 60s songs on it.
It was cool and I I rememberbeing really little, you know,
like I don't even maybe fouryears old or something.
It's one of my earliestmemories is dropping that record
and uh but yeah, the traumathat ensued yeah, and then it
(03:46):
led to a lifetime of trying topiece that record back together.
You know, figuratively,spiritually, psychologically,
totally.
I'm still working on it, chris,I'm still working on it.
colleyc (03:58):
Well, I'm here to support you in that.
Um, thank you I.
I remember that record becauseI I a Chipmunk fan too, because
I thought, the melodies were solike good Like it was like yeah,
like.
M Ross Perkins (04:10):
I mean sure their voices were sped up by a
hundred.
colleyc (04:14):
Right right.
M Ross Perkins (04:15):
I think the foundation of it was Weirdly
well-recorded and stuff, yeah,man, yeah, that got me into 60s
pop music, you know.
And uh, you know, yeah, therewere just all these little
things throughout the childhoodwhere it was just like, man, I
love that sound, I love thatvibe Um, not that I really like
(04:36):
set out when I sit down to write, like I want to write something
that sounds like it came out,you know, in the six, sixties or
seventies or something you knowthat's it's never.
You know the 60s or 70s orsomething you know that's never.
You know, I don't, I don't knowthat anybody should sit down
and try to try to do that, youknow, but it comes out sounding
that way because you just people, you know we write and and
produce what we want to listento.
(04:56):
You know that's what everybodyis doing and so genuinely what I
like is is you know, is thestuff that sounds like the music
that I make, or at least I tryto make music that sounds like
the stuff that I like, you know?
colleyc (05:12):
And when you first started writing songs, what
songs were swirling in your headof I want to write this kind of
song, or, you know, I want.
I want it to sound like that.
Like, were there songs in thosefirst early writings that that
you recall?
M Ross Perkins (05:30):
oh man, I mean, I think, yeah, I remember
wanting to sound like, uh, youknow, a country, kind of a
country artist, you know.
I think they call it like neatnew traditionalist country or
neo-traditionalist country inthe late 80s and early 90s.
That was kind of, you know, fora period of time, when you know
I'm a little boy, that's what Ilike.
(05:51):
For a period of time I liked,you know, I wanted to sound like
third eye blind or something.
You know, when I was, you knowwhen I was in like fifth grade
or whatever.
So, yeah, you know, it alwayskind of changed.
I mean, I think at one pointwhen I was in middle school or
something, you know, you, Iwanted to sound like Eddie
Vedder.
I thought, like ever, I wantedto make my voice sound real
(06:13):
gruff, you know, and kind oflike, you know, put this, this,
you know, spice on it.
It's kind of silly.
Looking back, I mean, yeah, youtry to imitate, you know, and,
and there's nothing wrong withit, that's how kids figure
things out, you know.
Thank god I didn't have youknow, that the internet wasn't
what it, what it is now, becauseyou know who knows.
(06:34):
I mean I would have probablygotten trolled to death, you
know, posting some of the stuffthat I was doing, you know, and
I would you know it was a littlekid, uh, but yeah, that's how
it all came, you know, came up.
colleyc (06:48):
And how do you?
What's your process like?
Like, how do you get an idea orinspired, get the song kind of
like you know, constructed itkind of down?
Like, how do you go about that?
Do you usually start with ariff, guitar, guitar, and then
lyrics come, or do you have aline that comes to you like how
(07:09):
do you go about building yoursongs?
M Ross Perkins (07:14):
well, I mean honestly the best ones, kind of
start with it.
I I mean, I hate to give awaymy trade secrets here.
This is proprietary stuff.
colleyc (07:22):
You know well, don't really no secrets just for this
show, I'll do it exclusive herefor the first time.
M Ross Perkins (07:33):
That's right, m ross, no, the best songs exactly
, yeah, the best ones, I feellike sound like, uh well, they
start with the title.
You know if I can come up witha good title, or even just like
not even the title but the main.
You know line of the chorusRight, which doesn't necessarily
(07:53):
need to be the title, but oftenit is.
But you know that that's it.
If I can do that, then thewhole song gets built around
that, and that's when it's likeOK, this is a really effective
composition.
You know, in terms of pop, whatpop music is supposed to do.
colleyc (08:09):
You know, right, um, but yeah, you know there's a
yeah.
Is there a formula that youfeel that your writing process
follows, or does it tend to varydepending on the album?
You know the time of the dayyou might write like outside
influences.
Do those come into play?
M Ross Perkins (08:29):
there is, I guess I mean a bit of a formula
in the sense that you know, whenyou're trying to write pop
music, there's there, there's aum, there are sequences of
information that work reallywell.
So when you you know there areformulaic things that you do in
that way, but that's just thecraft.
That's not really formulaic inthe sense that, okay, I always
(08:51):
sit down at a piano and I alwaysstart with this, or I always
use a metronome or you knowsomething like that, but it yeah
, I mean things end up.
You you learn little tools ofthe trade that um are really
useful and they do make forreally effective songwriting.
You know, um, somebody thattalks a lot about that is Andrea
(09:11):
Stolpe.
Andrea Stolpe is a, she's asongwriter, but she's also a
professor.
She teaches at Berkeley Um and,you know, just teaches
songwriting, has written acouple of books too, and she
talks about those like littleformulaic things that you can do
.
So once I kind of encounteredsome of that, I did start using
it, uh, cause it's hard not toit's it works so well some of
(09:35):
that.
colleyc (09:35):
I did start using it, uh, because it's hard not to.
It works so well, right, right,and are those like kinds of
things that you employ?
Like, do those happen, likeconsciously, like are, or is it
when you're kind of like hittinga wall and you're, you know,
struggling around?
Okay, am I getting this?
Is this the right way?
I should be doing it, like, howdo those come into play?
Like, is it when you'requestioning, like you know,
(09:58):
maybe this song is no, you know,I'll shelve it versus.
M Ross Perkins (10:02):
I think that's why a lot of people go to
formulaic type of you know,types of methods and stuff like
that is like oh, when you'restuck, here's some tips and
tricks to, you know, spur somecreative thing.
So they use it for invention,which is really cool.
I mean, the invention stage is,you know, yeah, that is, it's
hard to start that part, thatpart of a writing process, um,
(10:25):
but I mean I guess, so it's alittle bit of both.
So it's what's unconscious isthe coming up with the little
hooky kind of line or whateverthe lyric that's like oh, that's
the song that is going to bebased around this idea.
That's what comes kind of justnaturally while you're driving
your car, right, and then whenyou sit down to really turn that
(10:46):
into something, that's when youcan employ these little kind of
methods.
I mean, I guess it's good togive an example of like what I'm
talking about, because I'mbeing a little bit vague.
But you know, like AndreaStolpe talks about toggling, and
this is something that isreally cool that you do start to
notice in pop songwriting whenyou listen to really successful
(11:06):
hit songs, the toggling betweeneither different speeds, for
example, like you know, if yourverse is like really rapid, like
, then maybe your chorus shouldbe really slow and you toggle to
a like, the, the, the like, letthe notes ring out, right.
That's one form of toggling.
(11:26):
You can also toggle in yourlyrics so you can kind of toggle
back and forth between zoomingin on a subject and zooming out
of a subject, and your versesmight toggle back and forth.
You know, in verb tenses youcan toggle verb tenses.
There's all kinds of thingsthat you can do like that to
show contrast.
So that's like kind of just alittle practical stuff you start
(11:46):
doing as you're crafting itafter you've got the initial
idea.
At least me, that's what I do.
colleyc (11:51):
Yeah, no, I love it.
I love that example too.
It's great, um, because I oftentalk to starting artists right
that maybe have a handful ofsingles out and they're trying
to figure this stuff out right.
So I ask a question like thatto them and they're like well,
I'm figuring it out.
You know, like they're, theyhaven't had enough experience
(12:12):
with it to be able to verbalizewhat they might be doing.
M Ross Perkins (12:17):
You have to make it like a lifelong process.
To constantly be figuring outnew things in the same way that
you know, like a physician orsomething needs to constantly be
like abreast of the latest andmost contemporary research on a
given subject.
I mean, like an artist shouldprobably be doing the same thing
when it comes to just craft, um, or whatever that means you
(12:40):
know for the artist.
But to always just be kind ofin that process, I mean in that
beginner's mind uh mentality ofjust like I'm, I'm a lifelong
learner of this, this thing thatI'm trying to do, you know.
colleyc (12:52):
Yeah, oh, I like that, I like that and it's, it's, it's
very um, it rings true alsothat it is something you have to
continuously practice your,your craft and adjust, and maybe
there's new things that comeout, new technology or whatever,
and and and being open to thepossibilities anyway, um, not
necessarily having to change allthe time.
(13:14):
So that'd be a bit exhausting.
Yeah, it would.
So.
When you first started, youwere very much a DIY artist in
the sense that you dideverything on your own.
Am I accurate in saying that,amos?
M Ross Perkins (13:30):
Yeah, and that's still true.
I mean, as far as recordings go, now I play live with a backing
band, cause I mean I did thatby myself for years too, and
that was okay and it was, it hadits.
You know, there were there werepros to doing that, but it it
also was really limiting.
There were just so many songs Icouldn't perform because I was
(13:51):
by myself.
You know, not everythingtranslates so well to an, to a
soloist, you know.
And so but yeah, in terms of therecordings, I've always been
kind of a DIY type.
I have made recordings withother people, though, and I've
I've never, but I've neverreleased any of those recordings
(14:11):
.
So I've made them, but I'venever, but I've never released
any of them.
So I've made them, but I'venever put any out.
Uh, yeah, I prefer catalog ohit's not like terribly hefty it,
you know, compared to man.
There are some people I knowwho just write and write and
write, but, um, yeah, I mean,recording has always been
something that I really preferto do by myself.
I just don't really like.
(14:31):
I don't mind having some helpin the studio, but I don't want
anybody around when I'm cuttinganything.
Um, I don't want anybody aroundduring the mixing process to be
torturous, to sit here andlisten to me mix.
You know what I mean.
It's a nightmare.
Somebody's sitting for ninehours while I'm like looping the
same 25 seconds.
Yeah, it's absurd, you knowtotally so there's really, you
(14:54):
know, I just don't really see alot of the, a lot of reason to
have anybody around when I'mworking on stuff in the studio
right, right and and the latest,so it came out to this year,
when we get the right month, may, exactly.
colleyc (15:06):
Yeah, it was.
M Ross Perkins (15:06):
Yeah, yeah, actually, yeah just a, actually
a few weeks ago yeah, uh, what'sthe matter?
colleyc (15:12):
m ross?
Yeah, um, great record.
I mean it really kind ofreminds me a lot of teenage fan
club.
M Ross Perkins (15:17):
Like I listen to it, I'm like man, everybody
keeps saying that and that's socool.
That's like really really cool.
And I mean, truth be told, I'venever really listened to
teenage fan club and I soliterally recently I was like I
gotta see what what everybody'stalking about.
And I see exactly whateverybody's talking.
It's really a nice comparison.
They're very good.
So, yeah, no, that's cool, likeall these I've had.
(15:38):
You're like I don't know.
There have been a number ofpeople who've made that
comparison with this album.
Um, so that's cool.
It like led me into some somekind of new stuff that I hadn't
really checked out before but,it's always cool to like find
things they're like oh okay,like I'm not the only person
doing that for sure.
colleyc (15:55):
Well, somebody had mentioned to me too.
They're like there's so manymusicians out there, there's
only so many chords that you cancreate, right, like people are
gonna be making music forever,like yeah, it's always gonna be
a somewhat of a repetition, oruh, I mean, you're taking stuff
from somewhere there there's.
No, it's not an infinitepossibility Borrowed?
M Ross Perkins (16:17):
I mean, yeah, everything is borrowed.
I mean, and you know, when Ilistened to teenage fan club, is
somebody who is like neverreally gotten into teenage fan
club?
You know, when I listen it'slike I hear what they're
borrowing from you know, youknow, and if I listen to that
stuff then I'll hear whatthey're borrowing from you know,
you know, and if I listen tothat stuff then I'll hear what
they're borrowing from you knowthere's, there's really I, yeah,
(16:37):
I always talk about like howthis kind of myth of creativity,
this like you know it's, it'ssilly.
In the same way that, like youknow, to look at like your
automobile and say like, well,this is my car, you know sort of
neglects, and say like, well,this is my car, you know sort of
(16:58):
neglects that like thousandsand thousands of people's work
went into the manufacturer ofthat car.
And I don't I don't mean evenon a physical sense, I mean
going back in time, you knowgenerations.
I mean we're talking.
Maybe you know you could arguethat millions of people's labor
went into production of theMillions of people's labor went
into production of the you know.
So to kind of call anything yourown is pretty, you know it's a
(17:20):
little naive, you know, andmusic works the same way, so
it's like you know, to, tolisten to my own music and not
and think that that came, youknow, solely out of my brain,
like I'm God or something isjust a little bit arrogant,
great, great.
colleyc (17:33):
You know, solely out of my brain, like I'm God or
something, is just a little bitarrogant, right, right.
And looking at this record with, maybe you know, a few weeks of
like you get so saturated withit.
The release date comes, therelease date goes.
Maybe there's a show.
Like, how are you feeling now?
Kind of like with that the bighunk of this journey, of this
(17:53):
record, kind of you've done it,it's there it's in the world
it's in the air.
There's no stopping it anymore.
It's not contained on a cd oran lp.
It's, it's a part of the ether.
How are your feelings aboutlike?
Did it achieve what you wouldhope to achieve with it?
M Ross Perkins (18:09):
man, that's a.
That's a.
That's a really good question.
That's like a.
That's an intense question.
I yeah, um, this part of theprocess I think a lot of artists
would relate to this.
There's like a part of yourprocess where, yeah, after
you've released something thattook you like two years to make,
um, you get this kind of briefglint of this magical, kind of
(18:36):
celebratory feeling, but then,really quickly, that is replaced
by, you know, like a number ofother feelings that come up, and
some of them are are kind ofdark.
You know, some of them feel alittle bit.
You know, it's, it's all.
It's like a postpartumdepression, not to, you know,
compare it to something that'svery I've heard that before I'll
tell you.
But you know it is it's totally,you know, yeah, I mean it's,
(19:00):
it's an, it's an interestingcomparison, so like, yeah, you,
you don't really know what to dowith yourself.
Um, you, you wonder what thismeans.
Now that it's done, you know,it's, it's kind of, yeah, it's,
it's complicated it, you know.
I think that if, um, yeah, ifsomebody listens to it and they
(19:21):
kind of derive, you know, anykind of thing out of it that
that brings um any kind ofwisdom or peace, any kind of
calmness to somebody's life,then I mean there it is, then
it's done, then it's just go onto the next album.
I mean that if you just set yourbar, like right there, which is
(19:43):
a great place to set your bar,you know some would be like,
well, it's setting the barreally low.
I don't think so.
I think that's setting the barjust as high as anybody ought to
set the bar for themselves, youknow.
And then, like, give yourselfthat grace and say, well, if
that's what I get, if one personlistened to it and had a great
experience or something, or ifit just supplemented an existing
(20:04):
experience they were having ina way that that enhanced it,
benefited it, made it more umdealable, you know, made it made
it more, um, dealable, you know, made it, made it easier for
them to cope with it.
Um then, then there you go,that's it then.
Yeah, then my record worked.
colleyc (20:20):
I move on to the next one and try to do the exact same
thing again, and that's justkind of where where I'm at with
it right, and when you'recreating records, do you you
have a plan before with kind oflike an overarching kind of
package that you want to see itin, or is it really just come as
(20:41):
the songs come out and it justbuilds over time?
How do you approach when you'relooking at a new project of
okay, I'm on to my next record?
Can you talk about that mindset?
M Ross Perkins (20:52):
a bit.
Yeah, it's, it's reallysystematic.
Everything I do I try to beextremely systematic.
It just works the best.
For me it's, it's.
You know, everybody figures outwhat works.
I mean, for a lot of.
For some artists, it might workto have like scattered
notebooks full of stuff you know, and they're all over your
apartment and they're laying allover the place and you got to
dig through 10 of them to find,you know, that lyric that you're
(21:13):
thinking of and that works andthat you know whatever.
And then you know, on my sideof it, I like everything to be
super systematic, in the sameway that you know, like when
you're doing the dishes, like itmakes sense to wash the dishes
in a certain order, and you findthat 30 minutes of dishwashing.
(21:34):
Actually you get a lot moredone if you do it in a certain
order, right, okay.
So like I get that, that is alot like what it feels like to
put, to put a record togetherthat, like when I'm doing it by
myself, I have to take intoaccount the most expedient or
efficient way to do that,because otherwise I mean a
record with 12 songs on it couldbe a nightmare to produce If I
(21:57):
had to, you know.
So imagine this.
Imagine I'm like, okay, I'mgoing to play every instrument
on this record on every song,okay, and I've got 12 songs.
Now I want to start withwhatever.
Pick song number one, okay, andI'm going to do the drums, then
I'm going to do the bass, thenI'm going to do the guitars,
then I'm going to do you knowwhatever, percussion, keyboards,
(22:17):
vocals.
Well, I'm going to layereverything up, okay, and then
I'm going to then what, I'mgoing to mix it, and then then
I'm done with that song, andthen I moved to song number two.
Just a nightmare to me.
It sounds like a nightmare,right.
colleyc (22:31):
Like having to do the same process 12 times, 12 more.
Yeah, exactly and repeat.
M Ross Perkins (22:36):
Yes, so by, like you know, time number, you know
, by song five, you're likefatigued you know, I mean
because so it doesn't reallymake sense.
So some people then they say,okay, well, you do all the
tracking and then you do all themixing.
But it's like, okay, am I goingto do the same thing Sans
mixing?
And then I do it every.
You know drums, bass, guitars,all of it.
You know, do that 12 times.
That to me is a littleridiculous.
(22:58):
So what I do is I just I get mysequence, I know what songs are
going to be on the record, andthat part of the process is like
, before an instrument reallyeven gets touched, you know,
I've got this idea.
I mean for tracking, that is I.
I have this idea of what thesequence is.
So I know my 12 songs, whatever,I will sit down and do all 12
(23:22):
drums.
So I have like two days, three,maybe three days where I just
do nothing but drums.
So you know my studio.
You're also working in smallspaces too, you know.
So it's like you have to kindof take into account that.
So, rather than tear everythingdown and have to, you know
whatever you have to move thingsaround.
That you know I.
I set my drums up and I get themdialed in exactly the way I
(23:43):
want, and then I do 12 drumtracks over the course of two or
three days.
Then I've got bass day, andbass day I do 12 or 13 bass
tracks.
And then I've got guitar weekand it's like a week of just
doing all my guitars and I justdo that until finally the vocals
usually the last thing that Ido.
And that is cool too, becausethen you get your backing track
(24:04):
sounding really nice withoutthat vocal kind of you know,
vying for your attention at alltimes while you're working on it
, right, you know.
And do you build it like arounda click track?
You know, vying for yourattention at all times while
you're working on it, right you?
colleyc (24:12):
know and do you build it like around a click track,
like you have, like you'll playthe song and then that's the
foundation on which you'llrecord the drums and like, how
do you, if you?
M Ross Perkins (24:22):
know, if you use a click you end up it.
It sounds cool and everything,whatever, but it like it's.
It's very robotic, it's justvery.
You know it's too locked andeven if you don't perceive it,
you perceive it.
You are subconsciouslyperceiving that that did not
mathematically get off track atany point during that three
(24:45):
minutes.
You just listen.
I mean, it really feelsconstricted and you can feel the
the kind of life get siphonedout of a recording really
quickly when you record it thatway.
Um, but man, so what I do?
Yeah, it's weird, I mean it'sif you, you have to allow for
certain fluctuation of time andso like, because nothing in in
(25:08):
life, really in life, reallydoesn't possess this quality of
ebb and and and flow, right, so,like you know, you want your
recording to kind of sound likethe world it exists in, you know
, and so like.
Um, what I do?
Again, trade secrets here.
colleyc (25:27):
I can't believe I'm spilling this my my team is
going to be livid but here'syou'll have to have a
conversation with yourself aftereither yeah, I'm going to
really regret this.
M Ross Perkins (25:41):
I?
Uh, so what I do is I put alittle bpm counter on.
Uh, like you know my on logic.
I use logic.
But I get a bpm counter andthen I've got claves or
something, just anything thatcan make a clicking sound.
And I know roughly I'll use aclick track to determine what
(26:05):
general speed I want the song tobe.
So I'll turn a little metronomeon and then I'll sing the song.
I'll go take a very you knowroughly that's where I want it
and then I'll get rid of thatmetronome and then I'll sing the
song.
I'll go take a very you knowroughly that's where I want it,
and then I'll get rid of thatmetronome.
And then I look at the bpmcounter on the screen while I
sing along the song and tick,tick, tick with it and I try to
keep that bpm plus or minusthree or four beats per minute
(26:27):
in the range.
So what ends up happening is,when I need to speed it up
because it's intense, I canspeed it up a little bit and I
see that number go up and then Ican kind of moderate it.
So I'm doing that very, veryintentionally as I build, and
that is the first thing thatevery recording starts with is
me performing the song withbasically claves, just tick,
(26:48):
tick, tick, while I sing,watching the beat counter.
That's amazing.
colleyc (26:52):
That's how I do it yeah , I love, I love your, your
process for that like that's.
Because when you're, whenyou're the only person right,
like it's I mean, if you hadsomebody else there you could,
you know, like you know how youcould play along and they could
do the drum, whatever but whenyou're doing it all yourself,
you have to think about allthese little things that you
(27:12):
would normally just wouldn'teven have to think about.
M Ross Perkins (27:16):
Yeah, exactly, you take for granted that it's
so cool.
I love it.
colleyc (27:20):
So, as we kind of come to a close here, we're going to
listen to Spiritual Kick at theend.
Based on what you were saying,can you share a little bit about
this song how?
How it was born and it's it's.
It's one of the big singles offthe record too, is that, is
(27:40):
that correct?
M Ross Perkins (27:40):
It is, yeah, it is yeah, I wrote this in a in my
studio space.
I have a rented studio space inDayton and at that time, ok,
I'd been in the studio space forseveral months writing this
record and I'm spending longdays in there.
I'm in this like kind ofunventilated small space at my
(28:03):
desk, I'm writing this music andthe whole time.
I just moved into the space andit had kind of a weird sort of
metallic smell to the space andI just thought it's an old
building, it's just it.
It's an old building, it's justit's old.
What do you know?
What do you expect?
Didn't really think anything ofit, wrote this entire album,
right.
And then one day I mentioned tothe people who you know
maintain the space.
(28:23):
I said, hey, this is weirdmetallic smell up there.
It's kind of odd.
I think maybe you should checkit out.
They, uh, they call up afurnace guy.
Furnace guy comes out andinforms me that toxic furnace
exhaust fumes have been beingpumped directly into my space
through a vent, literally abovethe writing desk.
(28:45):
I mean, it is directly abovethe writing desk, talking for
months Chris.
So I'm in the middle of afurnace stupor, I mean you could
call it, I'm on like a benderan hvac bender okay and did this
add to the trippiness of?
The yes, yes.
Well, when they fixed it, myband came in to rehearse and
(29:06):
they I I swear to you I hadthree other guys say they felt
like they could see their lyricsheets better about midway
through the practice.
They were like I feel like I'vegot a certain clarity.
colleyc (29:19):
That is wild man.
M Ross Perkins (29:21):
Yeah, so that's the story of how Spiritual Cake
was born.
colleyc (29:26):
Well, when we listen to it, we'll listen for the yeah,
listen for the fumes.
Well, I just want to say Ireally, really appreciate your
time.
Um, I've loved these storiesand the little technical and
like I love that stuff.
Um, and you just tell it sowell.
You're such a great uh, thankyou a great storyteller, which
(29:48):
makes you a great artistquestions yeah, well, thank you,
I appreciate it and and greatrecord and and keep it up.
Is there stuff um coming downthe pipe for 2025 that you can
share with us?
M Ross Perkins (29:59):
um, maybe, on the road in ohio.
We've got a lot of uh dates inohio coming up and uh, you know
we stick to.
We stick to our beloved uhbuckeye state down here, um,
kind of you know, just becauseit's uh, it's a great place to
be and we like it um, but we do.
Yeah, we've got uh, hopefullysome, we've got high hopes to
(30:20):
one day uh visit the land of thefree up there too with the
north.
colleyc (30:24):
So absolutely always the home of the brave.
We will take you guys care ofyou.
M Ross Perkins (30:29):
By the way, home of the brave, we're past the
story.
Yeah, yeah, we've.
We're passing the torch to youguys.
It's, uh, it's a heavy burden.
Carry it well, my friends.
colleyc (30:45):
Well, I appreciate you so much.
I wish you all the best withthis great new record and I hope
to one day see a show, and ifyou have new stuff coming out
and you want to chat ever again,it would be an absolute
pleasure.
This has been a great, greatconversation, so thank you.
M Ross Perkins (31:02):
Likewise.
Likewise Looking forward tonext time, Chris Thanks.
Right on, he's a guy on aspiritual kick.
His body's all out to market.
(31:23):
He's got a little string ofbeats.
Well, don't try till you knockit.
Yeah, he's a newfound devotee.
He's a guy On a spiritual kick.
He's working on his bodhicitta.
(31:45):
He's working on his reiki chi.
He's digging the back of ourguitar.
Baby, it takes a lot of energyto be a guy.
I'm a spiritual king.
He's a guy, I'm a spiritualking.
(32:10):
I'm a spiritual king.
I keep trying just to find somekind of peace.
And everybody's saying, oh my,my, so deep, so deep.
(32:47):
Guitar solo.
He's trying just to find somekind of peace.
And everybody's saying, oh my,my, so deep, so deep.
He's gone and transcendedwanting.
(33:16):
He's gone and set his ego free.
He's gone beyond the wheel ofsuffering.
Yeah, and all the girls aregoing crazy For a guy On a
spiritual case.
He's a guy on a spiritual care.
He's a guy on a spiritual care.
(33:40):
He's a guy on a spiritual care.
He's a guy on a spiritual care.
Spiritual Care is brought toyou by God.
On Spiritual Care.
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