January 24, 2024 • 53 mins
Get ready for this inspiring STEM Education chat with guest speaker, Mike McKee! He is the Associate Director of Undergraduate Programs in Photonic Science and Engineering at the University of Florida CREOL (The College of Optics and Photonics). Mike delves into the heart of STEM education and the ways photonics can shape the future of scientific careers. Uncover why he passionately advocates for photonics within all engineering degree programs, and the crucial role early exposure plays in nurturing a diverse talent pool in the sector.
With the moderator, Sri Priya Sundararajan of Hewlett Packard, he addresses the disappointing lack of diversity in national-level science Olympiads and STEM spaces. Priya herself has led large scale MakeHer workshops and Introduce a Girl to Photonics programming. Together, they stand at the forefront of change, championing efforts to bolster diversity and inclusion at the local level. Hear from both on the power of being a visible minority and the struggles to confront bias and resistance in these spaces. Spoiler Alert: They do not just talk about the problem; they share solutions to create an inviting, inclusive environment for all participants!
Host:
Akhil Kallepalli
Leverhulme Early Career Fellow
University of Glasgow, UK
Moderator:
Sri Priya Sundararajan
Senior Silicon Photonics Researcher
Hewlett Packard Enterprise, USA
Expert:
Mike Mckee
Associate Director, Undergraduate Programs
University of Florida CREOL, USA
Have a topic you're interested in hearing about? Let us know!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Illuminated by IEEE.
Photonics is a podcast seriesthat shines light on the hot
topics in Photonics and thesubject matter experts advancing
technology forward.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hi everyone and welcome to today's episode of
Illuminated.
My name is Akhil and, as theAssociate Vice President of the
Young Professionals and Chair ofthe Young Professionals
Advisory Committee, it is mypleasure to be your host for
today.
I'm a biomedical physicistworking at the University of
Glasgow, but in my role for theIEEE Photonic Society, I'm
supporting and promotinginitiatives very much like this
(00:37):
one to raise the profile ofvaluable young professionals
within various sectors and alsobring together people who will
give us valuable input for ourjourneys along the way as well.
The Young ProfessionalsInitiative is for graduate
students, post-doctoralcandidates and early career
researchers anyone after 15years, both their first degree.
(00:59):
This affinity group within thePhotonic Society is committed to
helping one pursue a career inPhotonics.
We're here to help to evaluateyour career goals, to better
understand technical pathwaysand subject matters, help refine
skills and bring people closertogether so that professional
networks can get strongerthrough mentorships and many
(01:19):
other initiatives.
So on to our podcast for today.
This podcast is one I've beenlooking forward to all week.
Sometimes you go to conferencesas I did to go to Florida
earlier this year to eat up andyou meet people who make you
feel like simply being in theirpresence might give you a few
bright ideas.
Our special guest for today, mrMike McKee, and moderator
(01:41):
Sripriya Sundararajan are ourguests for today.
We will talk about STEMeducation, its value for science
and the broader community, andso much more.
Thank you very much forlistening to this episode.
It's definitely going to be agood one.
I'll introduce you to yourmoderator for today, sripriya
Sundararajan.
She's a research engineer atHewlett-Backet Labs.
(02:03):
Within Hewlett-BacketEnterprise, she's worked in the
semiconductor, photonics andoptical telecommunications
industry in many roles, withproduct and test engineering,
technical program managementroles and so much more.
Her breadth of knowledgeincludes silicon, photonics,
35-phase lasers and photonicintegrated circuits.
She enjoys bringing noveltechnologies from design phase
(02:27):
to mass production.
Having received her doctoratein electrical engineering
exploring nanophotonics fromRice University, she completed
her post-doctoral studies atMcMaster University.
She received her BS and MN inelectrical engineering from
Cornell University and she hasorganized a lot of workshops
specifically in the STEM spacefor girls in middle and high
(02:50):
schools, entitled Photonics isFun, which we all know because
we absolutely love photonics.
She's done these initiativeswith Sunnyvale Public Library
and the Girl Scouts of NorthernCalifornia and I am sure we'll
get into that during the podcast.
She's worked with the IEEEWomen in Photonic Silicon Valley
group, and she's also recentlyworked with the IEEE Ventura on
(03:13):
STEM outreach activities in theVentura County.
As many of us, myself includedand Mike as well, she's
passionate about STEM education,outreach, inclusion and
diversity across all fields.
Over to her, and the stage isall hers for her to chat with
Mike.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Thank you, akal.
I'm really looking forward totalking with you and with Mike
today about, like, the STEMeducation pipeline.
The STEM education pipeline hasbeen gaining a lot of attention
nationally now as highlyskilled manufacturing and design
jobs are being ensured in theUS in a move mayor globally to
(03:52):
build a resilience of the supplychain to unexpected events.
The University of FloridaCreole is a leader in training
next generation talent for thephotonics and optics workforce,
with Mike McKee at the verycenter of this effort.
Mike is the associate directorof the undergraduate program at
the University of Florida Creoleand through his work we can
(04:15):
understand and learn how toidentify diverse talent early on
and ensure that we keep uniqueminds engaged and excited, such
that students early in theireducation and through to
collegiate level elect to stayin the field to contribute to
the STEM workforce, especiallyin the areas of optics and
photonics.
(04:36):
So for 33 years Mike has workedin K-12 and higher education.
Starting in 1990, he was a highschool physics teacher, a K-12
science instructional coach,he's run a charter school
science program in the Bay Area.
He's managed it in the NSFfunded GK-12 program and for the
last 10 years he's been theassociate director at Creole in
(04:59):
the University of CentralFlorida.
Mike is also the state directorfor the Florida Science
Olympiad for 20 years, hostingabout 30 state and regional
tournaments as well as twonational tournaments at UCF.
And, by the way, mike likes totravel a lot and he loved
shooting tons of video along theway.
(05:20):
So with that, mike, could youtell us about what you do at
Creole and some of thechallenges you face in making
students aware of photonics as acareer?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
So great to be here.
Yeah, so I basically run theprogram and do everything other
than teach.
So a lot of the work that I doinvolves getting out and
promoting the photonics programacross the state and around the
region, which actually sort ofleads to the second part of the
question.
Is you know what are some ofthe challenges that we face?
The big challenge is no oneknows what photonics is.
(05:56):
So when you go around and ask,have you heard the term
photonics, I might be lucky if 5or 10% of the students that are
in the room raise their hands.
So that's probably the biggestchallenge that we face.
And I gotta say, here's theinteresting thing We've actually
had a debate here in thecollege about whether we even
should change the name, to goand call it something else
(06:20):
rather than Photonic Science andEngineering, which is what our
degree is, and maybe change itinto Optical Engineering.
And I'm actually against that,weirdly enough, even though I
just said, this is the challenge, and it's because Photonics is
an unknown term, so a lot oftimes it's easier to get people
hooked on something that's notknown, versus if we went around
(06:42):
and started calling it OpticalEngineering.
I'm a little worried that wewould start to have people go.
Well, that's, you know, I don'twanna be an eye doctor, I don't
wanna go into that kind ofthing.
So we'd have to work on twolayers of messaging.
Try to get the word out.
So you know generally and Ithink this is a problem that's
not just here in Florida butit's across the United States
and around the world is how dowe recruit more students in the
(07:03):
major?
Just by letting them know thatthis is a potential field that
they could go into.
So I think that's probably thebiggest layer that we've got as
far as a challenge right now.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
For sure, mike, and you know, sometimes when I'm
trying to motivate studentsduring our outreach workshops, I
ask them oh, what do you thinkPhotonics is?
What do you think lasers are?
And for example, a young girlwas just like a laser is
something you use to tease catswith.
So you know we wanna kind ofengage interest but perhaps like
share all the other things thatyou can do that are cool with
(07:37):
lasers.
But that was kind of funny.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Well, and that was really the person who made the
laser that that cat is chasingafter was some level of an
engineer.
So you know there is that.
So that's legit.
I'll go with that.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
For sure it's very accessible.
So with that in mind, mike,you're talking about how, like,
people might not know or befamiliar with what Photonics is
and you know they might havedifferent perceptions and
conceptions about like, opticalengineering, and part of
engaging a diverse population iskind of explaining what
(08:11):
Photonics is about and what it'suseful for.
And, along those lines, what doyou think the importance of
role models and representationwithin the STEM education
pipeline could be in helpingmaking the field more accessible
, and what are some strategiesthat you've deployed to be able
(08:33):
to attract and retain thattalent, as you've experienced at
UCF Creole?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Okay.
So this is a big question.
We I'll start off with this, Ijust pulled these numbers that
our undergraduate program that Irun were 30% female and we're
about 51% minority.
The female female enrollment isgreat and that is something
that is.
It doesn't represent the restof the university's engineering
(09:02):
programs here.
So and we're so we're thehighest of all the engineering
programs here at UCF.
The 51% minority is actuallyright in line with where the
university is, where 52%minority, so that requires sort
of no effort.
It's the number of studentsthat are in the major.
If female students that are inthe major, that is good and I
(09:26):
wish I could say, okay, we didthis and these tactics worked.
What I know we have done isfrom the very beginning of the
major we had a couple of femalestudents who got very active and
involved in the Society ofOptics Students, which is our
undergrad program or undergradclub.
(09:47):
So you know she got to be frontand center and that helped
bring in, I think, more students.
So then recently I asked someof our female students like why
do you think we're at that highnumber?
And they shared that.
Well, the college is friendly,it doesn't feel threatening to
(10:13):
female students and so we have aculture here in the college
that is not the rice of againstfemale students, and you know
there is implicit bias that cana lot of times people will carry
, and just the way that theyunknowingly treat people that
are not like them can have astrong impact on them, whether
(10:36):
they one come into the programor are retained in the program.
And of course, these studentsare also strong advocates for
other students coming into themajor.
So once we start to get a fewof them in, then they start to
say, hey, listen, this is agreat place to be come on in.
Generally, we also provide alot of support among the
(10:56):
students, so it's not acompetitive environment, and so
the lack of that competitiveenvironment I think is also
enticing.
So here's something interesting.
There was Matt Posner and I.
We've done workshops, and inpreparing for some of the
workshops there was a reportthat came out of the United
(11:17):
Kingdom about how do you engagefemales in STEM fields, and one
of the things I learned about itis is that when you start to
create ultra competitiveenvironments, that actually sort
of a negative toward femalesthey this head to head thing a
lot of times doesn't work realwell.
But if it's a collaborativeprocess which could still have a
(11:40):
little bit of a competitiveside, but if it is one in which
you are solving a problem soclimate change is a major
problem, so you know, you dosomething along that lines then
that tends to draw more studentsin and it's more female
friendly.
So being aware of these kindsof things, I think, is really
important.
So I think what we do is justcreate that supportive
(12:03):
environment.
I think we also have built inthe following we have a non
competitive workforce experiencewhen they graduate.
What I mean by that is they'renot competing against each other
for jobs, not like some of theother majors where there's
potentially hundreds orthousands of students graduating
from one university.
(12:25):
Here at UCF it's just not ascompetitive.
So then that means that theycan be a lot more collaborative
and help each other.
So these are the kind of thingsthat we do to try to entice
more students of diversebackgrounds into the major.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
For sure for sure, and I think it's so important to
create an inclusive culture anda sense of belonging for all
the students.
Because, you know, I feel likesometimes competition has its
place, it can create a bit ofadrenaline, it can create like a
desire or urgent people to dobetter, but then there's also
(13:05):
the flip side of it.
So this is something that I seein STEM workshops as well is
that when you're trying to solvea problem like how do I build
the biggest racetrack or how doI make the brightest laser, then
that kind of draws everybody inand it's very collaborative,
and so there's a place for bothbeing the best, but there's also
(13:26):
a place to trade knowledge andexchange and make everyone feel
welcome, and I think that is soimportant.
So, you know, kind of likebuilding on that and building on
your efforts on making UCF avery inclusive environment for
females and other minorities.
(13:47):
You know, is there anythingthat you can tell us about what
you draw from your experience inrunning science olympiads,
where you're like reachingstudents who may be at a younger
age and maybe haven't likeinternalized some of those
societal expectations of whatthey can do or who they can be,
or you know whether science isfor them or not, and share some
(14:11):
instances of maybe how you knowyou were able to interrupt the
bias or encourage minorities anddiverse individuals to like
stay in the pipeline.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So on.
With science olympiad, I'lltell you, the first time I went
to a national tournament it wasup in Washington state.
It was in Spokane, Washington,and this was in 2000,.
I think I was stunned by thelack of diversity there at the
nationals and it was stunning.
(14:46):
I mean, it was just stunning.
It was Asians and white malesand I made a comment about like
this is sort of doesn't have agood look and everything, and it
was sort of like, well, theseare the best students.
And then there was noaddressing that.
There was really a visualproblem there and I would argue
(15:09):
that just by dismissing thatobservation is a problem.
So at the time in the state ofFlorida we were quite small, so
we only had gosh at that point,you know, probably 20 teams
competing.
As we've gotten larger, we'vegrown more diverse because we've
gotten into more schools andeverything, and what you see is
that the regional tournaments.
(15:29):
So Science Olympiad is acompetition for middle and high
school students.
They compete as teams of 15together in 23 different events.
So these 15 students form ateam, they go off to the
competition and compete in these23 different events against
other students and everything,and so some of them are
(15:49):
knowledge based, Some things arebuilding and some things are
more lab based.
So what we also see is thatsome female students will
sometimes go to some types ofevents versus the males.
Now, this is not exclusive.
I'm not saying that all thefemales go and do all the
knowledge based events and viceversa, but we started to see a
(16:11):
little bit of this natural ebband flow.
But just by getting larger, wewere able to attract more
students into the program.
I was not in a position toaffect what was happening at the
national level.
I did serve on the executiveboard, but I actually think it's
still a challenge that theyhave in getting diverse faces at
(16:35):
the nationals.
I'll say this much we did havea state competition here while I
was still doing this.
It was probably 2012, 2013.
And we had an all female.
There were all girls.
I think it was middle school.
They had the best fun and Ithink we'd heard from the
teacher that they won one medaland they lost their minds when
(16:57):
they won that one medal, butthey had the most fun.
So, don't you know, they wentback to the school and talked
that up.
That's the kind of thing thatyou want.
So the fun part is what I thinkwas triggering it, but I
actually enjoyed it because Iwas doing the award ceremony and
they sort of losing their minds, but they were cheering for
everybody else.
So I don't know, I don't have agood answer for this.
(17:18):
This is actually sort of thechallenge that I wish we did
have an answer.
I'm gonna turn that around.
How do you think, how can youinterrupt bias?
I mean, is there when you'redoing workshops and everything?
What does the workshop looklike?
You know, when you'reconstructing this and getting
(17:39):
people in, what does that looklike?
Speaker 3 (17:41):
You know, I think that, like you touched upon a
couple of things like the roleof having fun, making science
something that's fun andwelcoming instead of being
something that's for someoneelse or something that's scary.
When I was organizing workshopsin the Sunnyvale library,
oftentimes even the people whoare facilitating the activities,
(18:01):
who are from the best companiesin the Bay Area, were having
more fun.
Like we got into trouble forthrowing like frisbees with LED
lights on them and the girlsperhaps learned from that that
like hey, you know what.
This is something that you seelike grownups, like having a lot
of fun with, and maybe it'ssomething for me, right?
(18:21):
Because one other thing thatyou brought up, mike, was the
impact of being a visualminority.
So often, what happens if you gointo this space and then you go
and you look around and likethere's no one who looks like
you there, there's no one whomaybe you know you can identify
with there, then the firstquestion as a human being that
(18:43):
may cross one's mind is do Ibelong here?
And I've grown so accustomed tobeing in, like you know,
engineering spaces where, likethere might be less women For me
.
I've gotten used to it to theextent that, like when I was in
Bangalore Airport, I wasstanding in the all men's line
and I didn't even notice tillthe guard came up to me and said
, hey, excuse me, there's aladies line, can you please go
(19:04):
there?
I'm like, oh right, okay, soI'll go over there, you know.
But it's bringing that barrierdown, I think, showing you know,
women and people of color, thatthese spaces are for them.
They have very valuable ideasthat what they bring to the
table, quite literally, maybesomething different, and I think
(19:27):
that, like you know, we've hadlike different mixes of people
and different demographics, butfor me personally, until a
photonics activity looks liketarget, I think we all still
have work to do.
You know, that's what I think.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
That's actually a great like.
Yeah, if it looks like target,then we're there.
Here's the interesting thing isthen what do you?
How do you get students orwhoever to confront when they
come up against resistance?
Right, because they may not beequipped with how to handle that
(20:05):
, and I don't know that there'sa lot of people that are
equipped to be able to handlewhat happens when they encounter
some level of either sexism,racism, namierism, right, how do
you do that?
How do you do it without, like,getting punched in the face and
(20:26):
draw attention to it?
You know, if it's people youknow, then it's probably easier,
but then we also encounter thisall the time, you know, at
Target, for example.
It can still happen there aswell.
So I guess that's.
The question is what do you doto try to you know, person by
person changes, or at leastbring some awareness that like,
(20:46):
hey, you know, you probably needto really rethink what you're
doing here, you know, so you canbe a little bit more inclusive.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
For sure.
I think that, like you know,maybe earlier on I thought that
fighting prejudice was somethingthat you would do, as like
Mahatma Gandhi did or MartinLuther King did, where you're
standing on a big memorialaddressing a large group of
people and saying, you know, Ihave a dream, for example.
Right, but I think that, likeaddressing prejudice is as much
(21:16):
as something that happens in thesmall moments, like when you're
correcting people, you're like,hey, this is your assumption
about me, but no, that's notright, you know.
Or it can be a gentle moment,it can be a small moment, but
it'll be a transformative momentfor whoever is at the other
side of prejudice.
You know, and I think we allencounter prejudice, maybe we
(21:40):
also maybe make assumptions thatwe need to correct in ourselves
.
So I think it's like a slow andsteady work.
It's something that needs tohappen, and people like yourself
my core allies who are withinthe system, who know how the
system work and perhaps areaware and, like you know,
(22:01):
looking at ways to draw peoplein, are very important because,
you know, if you wanna changethe system, then you have to
work with it.
It.
Revolutions are fine, but maybethe small moments where you're
kind of like doing a maybeattitude correct, as they would
say.
In aeronautics terms.
Those are equally important as,like the large, you know,
(22:23):
spotlight, limelight moments ofpeople having a large stage and
a big message, those areimportant too.
They help draw people in.
But you know, for example, inyour Science Olympiad example, a
smile and hey, welcome, we'reso glad to have you here, it
goes a long way to get peopleover those initial jitters.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, and you know the other thing I think this
happens a lot is that the youknow when something happens,
because I run into this all thetime what's the one thing that
you do not wanna hear?
Well, you're the only one withthis problem.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Mm-hmm.
Yes sure?
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Okay, seriously, that's probably not true and
that statement is absolutelydismissive.
And it really doesn't matterwhat it is, because my view is
if I've got a student because Ialso do advising for our program
so if a single student comes tome with I don't care what the
problem is.
I'm having problem registeringfor classes or I'm having
problems with another student,and I've had those on both sides
(23:26):
.
You're the only one with thatproblem, but it's still a
problem and it's utterlydismissive to use that kind of
terminology.
So by just watching what issaid can, a lot of times, be
either the solution orcontribute to the problem.
(23:46):
So that's where it's like takinga person seriously about where
they are and addressing that cango a long way.
And so and by the way, I doknow because I've had this
happen where we've had studentsthat have had other, you know,
they've had confrontations inclass that were sexist related
(24:07):
confrontations and the way thatit gets addressed.
They talk and they tell otherstudents and either they're
gonna say, oh yeah, mike isgonna take care of this or is
looking into it, or he dismissedme, and which do you think is
gonna have a bigger impact, youknow?
So it can be very destructiveif it's.
(24:29):
I got dismissed.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
For sure, for sure.
And I think that in order tomake a space inclusive, people
need to feel both visible aswell as heard.
And so I think it's veryimportant, as a leader or a
person in a position ofauthority, to do that to, you
know, allow people to feel thatthey're part of a community and
(24:52):
allow them to feel that whatthey're facing is something that
others are facing, that they'rebeing heard, that they're
visible and that that's beingtaken into account in order to
figure out how to fix the issue.
Because that's the other thingabout diversity, you know, it's
that because the perspective isa unique one or a new one, then,
like, there might be like biasthat has not been seen before or
(25:17):
has not been perceived before,but it is now, you know.
So I think that is so importantand, you know, I think that
like it's top of mind for peopleand it's really important, as
we're trying to solve these bigproblems, these big societal
problems, in a collaborativemanner, to continue to do that,
(25:40):
to continue to like, amplifythose voices and make sure
people are seen.
But that I'd like to pivot alittle bit and just kind of get
your thoughts on some of thecontributions.
Perhaps that a school likeCreole Florida could have to
solving some of the big issueswe're seeing with climate change
(26:01):
, with, like you know, with allthe like extreme weather events
we're seeing, you know, what doyou think the role of photonics
and the role of likediversifying STEM education
pipeline is to kind ofpreserving, monitoring, saving
(26:22):
spectacular systems, ecosystemssuch as we see in Florida, you
know?
Do you find that that can havea role in motivating students to
kind of join and study andlearn about photonics?
You know, what are yourthoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Well, I think that the you know any challenge that
we face, the more diverse voicesand faces that you've got, they
can bring unique positions tothe table to help solve these
problems.
I was listening to a podcast on.
It was Hidden Brain and it wasjust this.
I just finished it this morningand it was on great teams how
(27:00):
do you make great teams?
And they it had nothing to dowith intelligence.
There was no correlationbetween intelligence and the
making of a great team.
But what they said is like, ifthere was diversity so they were
talking about basically femalesand everything if there was a
good mix of females and males,then that actually led to better
(27:21):
teams.
And they think it's because thefemales tend to be more
attentive to other people, wherethe males will just dominate
and roll over people, you know.
So the females will be like hey, you know, this person hasn't
spoken here, maybe they've gotsome ideas and they can open up
the floor for more diversevoices.
And, of course, we know thatanytime that there's more
(27:43):
diversity on any team, theybring perspectives that we never
even considered right.
And so we've got this planet,which, you know.
We're seeing Hurricane number24 out in the Atlantic right now
I don't know how many and weare right now.
They're getting worse.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Too many, too many.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah, it's like you know, and there are.
There are some countries thatare starting to go under water,
you know, island nations andeverything we need to hear from
them.
There could be solutions outthere, you know.
It's sort of the same kind ofthing as okay, we're destroying
the forest, you know therainforest and everything.
(28:24):
Well, there are drugs in therainforest that we haven't
discovered, and so we're justmowing them down, burning them
and everything, and we'd belosing some advances that can
save humanity, you know, and thenext great virus.
So I think that's why we've gotto have these voices, and
(28:46):
they'll say that photonics, youknow, is one of the things that
will, is great because it usesless energy, it improves
bandwidth, so, really, thedrivers for solving some of the
major challenges of the 21stcentury are gonna be photonics
based.
So it's really important thatwe start getting those diverse
voices in now so that they canbe sitting at the table as
(29:08):
trained individuals that havethe PhDs, that have the masters,
that have the bachelors thathave the associate's degrees,
that have the certificatedegrees, so that they can help
solve the problems as we moveforward.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
For sure, mike, and I think that, like a lot of the
communities that are impacted bythese events are
disproportionately, you know,minority communities or their
First Nations communities.
They're like Native Americancommunities and tribal
communities that, like you know,really have been stewards for
(29:41):
those lands and might have alike a better understanding of,
like the ecosystems and how tomanage the local climate.
Like, for example, inCalifornia, there's been a lot
of wildfires and some of thetraditions of the communities
here have been to do like verylocalized, controlled burns that
could have helped wildfiresfrom like spiraling out of
(30:02):
control.
And even when the tsunami hitin India, some of the tribes in
the Andaman's knew that they hadto go to higher ground and they
were able to like avoid a lotof the negative impact that,
like perhaps urban dwellersdidn't know what to do when the
ocean receded.
So there's a lot of knowledgethere.
There's a lot of things wehaven't discovered about, like
(30:23):
the rainforest, a lot of thingsthat we need to understand
before we lose it, you know, andI think photonics has a very
important role to play in that.
So you know, I know that Akhilis leading this initiative on
behalf of the youngprofessionals and some of the
folks that are listening in mayhelp to like build those bridges
(30:46):
.
Maybe they have things thatthey'd like to share, but, you
know, perhaps they might notknow how exactly to get there.
So, you know, my question to youis if there's a grad student
who's listening to this podcastand maybe it's resonating with
them and they're wondering, youknow, how do I network?
(31:07):
How do I get to where you are?
Because, you know, here I am,I'm considering maybe two or
three different routes.
I might want to be a professor.
I might want to be anundergraduate advisor and help
students along in the pipelinethat speaks to me.
Maybe I want to work inindustry, you know, in a
(31:27):
research lab, and I'm not quitesure which way to go.
So if I go to a conference,then how do I network?
What is your advice to me?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yeah, how do you?
I get this question a lot fromthe undergrads, like what do I
do to network and everything youknow?
A lot of it has to do with justgoing up and saying hello.
I know this is really difficultif you're an introvert.
Right, we sort of live in anextrovert society.
So if you're an introvert, thisis painful to be able to go up
(31:58):
and engage with somebody and thereality is that's, you know,
that's what you have to do.
You don't have to be showy andeverything, but just introduce
yourself.
And what I also find is good ismaybe if you're shy, you don't
have to talk about yourself.
Ask questions, come loaded withquestions and you'll find that
(32:19):
when you ask people questionslike we are here, the person who
talks about themselves walksaway from the conversation like
man, that was great, you know.
So if you go up to a person andthey walk away and you may not
have said much because you maybe an introvert, they're gonna
walk away remembering.
So you know that's a greatlittle tactic.
(32:40):
Of course, if you're anextrovert, then it's super easy
to be able to network and get toknow people you know, collect
business cards and put yourselfinto as many opportunities as
you can.
I know, you know, okay.
So I did Science Olympiad whileI was teaching and then I also
became Science InstructionalCoach.
So I was the Science OlympiadState Director for 20 years,
(33:04):
while I had another job I meanthat was a volunteer job because
I had this incapacity of sayingno.
I mean I said yes to everything.
As I've gotten older, I say nomore because I'm lazy and I've
said yes to a lot of things inthe past.
But I think, availing yourselfas many opportunities as you can
(33:26):
, you may be exhausted, you know, and go my goodness, why did I
do that?
But that'll give you someopportunities.
And then the deal is is that ifyou do something so I tell this
to the undergrads go do aninternship.
If you don't like it, you'velearned something, because
sometimes you go to a companythat may not be the right
culture, it may not be the rightfit for you, but you tried it.
(33:50):
So it's better to have a regretof trying and failing than
never have tried at all.
So those are the kind of thingsthat you know you can do, but
you just you avail yourself forthe opportunity to get out there
, you know, and don't say no.
Don't say no, unless you'regoing to try it.
If they say, hey, can youbreathe underwater?
That's probably.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
That is true, and that's so important, mike,
because sometimes, like I think,with unconscious bias, people
might self-select themselves outof the process, and it's always
better to have tried and failedthan to not have tried at all.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
I want to follow up on that Because, yes, this is,
by the way, that is actually avery important lesson Don't say
no to yourself, say let them sayno to you.
You know so, apply for jobs,apply for things, let them say
no.
But don't go up and say no, soI'll tell you.
(34:50):
Here's the deal.
My first job I had a highschool physics teacher.
My first job was actually inmiddle school and I was having a
hard time finding a job.
For some reason in the 1990sthere was actually like a little
bit of a surplus of scienceteachers.
That doesn't exist anymore.
So I found out that the sciencesupervisor for Orange County
(35:12):
Public Schools here in Orlandowas at a luncheon at a hotel by
SeaWorld.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
So I'm like huh.
So I went over to it and itwent up to.
This was there were 300 peoplethere.
They were in the ballroomhaving lunch and I went up and I
said hi, my name is Mike McKeeand I'd like to know if Dallas
Madron is here.
So they go, oh, hold on.
So they went into the ballroomduring lunch.
He came on and said hi, I'mlooking for a job.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
That's awesome.
I'm not joking.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So he goes.
Well, you know there's a coupleof jobs.
You know what?
Why don't you just come on inand have lunch with us?
Because I'm like unemployed andeverything.
So I think he felt sorry.
I went in, sat at this table inthe middle of the ballroom he
was there.
Somebody the supervisor fromSeminole County Public Schools,
which is just north of here.
Somebody from Miami Dade wasthere.
(36:03):
Every single one of them saidif Dallas doesn't get you a job,
I'll hire you.
It's wonderful, and it was likeit was just one of those crazy
things because I'm like what'sthe worst they can do?
Say no and get out.
But it turns out at the end ofthe week I had two job offers.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
That's a great achievement, mike, and it shows
the importance of puttingyourself out there and like
taking that first step, andthat's just so inspiring.
So with that, I'd like to passthe mic back to Akhil, and I
really enjoyed this conversation.
So much great advice there andI look forward to hearing more.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Thanks, and great here as well.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Excellent.
Thank you very much.
I've got a couple of questionsof my own and then we can sort
of call it a day if it's safe.
But you might have something,Mike.
I got my current position whenI'm based right now.
When I went to a conference andmy lab PI was giving one of the
keynote addresses, I sat at theback of the room, finished my
(37:07):
CV, attached a motivationalletter onto an email and waited
until it was to break.
After his speech, had a chatwith him Very nice to meet you,
you do some amazing work, It'llbe lovely to work with you.
The usual questions and hebasically said okay, could you
send me a CV and I'll take alook.
Took my phone out and hit sendon the phone.
And the best part of this Idon't think he will ever forget
(37:33):
that interaction.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
It works.
I'm telling you because mostpeople say that and they don't
expect it, and when you do itit's just like wow, you know.
And again, what's the worst hecan do?
He'll just ignore it or say no.
So you're right where you areright now.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yep, exactly, it was quite wonderful sort of
listening to your experiencesand all of the all of the things
that you've done.
I've got a few generalquestions, but I'll start with a
very specific one.
I can see that you've done alot of work with the NSF GK12
program.
Can you tell us more about that, in terms of background and
sort of where the program'sgoing as well?
Speaker 1 (38:12):
So that was a program that was funded in the mid
2000s and it was designed to getgraduate students into science
classrooms in an effort toapprove their communication
skills, so it was not designedto turn them into science
teachers.
The idea was that if they werein science classrooms they would
(38:34):
have to learn how tocommunicate with very difficult
audiences that were reluctantlearners, and so we ran that for
three and a half years andthere were a whole bunch of
chapters all around the UnitedStates that did that.
And then the goal is is thatwhen they became scientists,
they would know how tocommunicate effectively with the
public, politicians,non-scientists in a way that
(38:57):
wasn't demeaning.
So when I do workshops, one ofthe things I talk about is you
want to speak simply, and Idon't like the term dumbing down
because of course connotationthat I'm smart, you're dumb and
let me explain it to you youidiot, right?
Speaking simply is, oh, you justlack the information, you don't
(39:20):
have the background, and itcould be a colleague that's in a
slightly different researcharea that just doesn't know the
terminology.
There's a lot of terms that weuse, and so if you're not in
that particular club, then youjust don't understand, right?
So speaking simply just meanshey, explain it in a way that's
not demeaning.
So that's the kind of stuffthat we did and we worked at
(39:42):
over the three years.
I think we were probably at 20different schools in Orange
County, so it had benefit forthe teachers as well and the
students.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
So that's interesting because you're effectively
preparing people to communicatescience, and I know, for example
, from my personal experience aswell, a lot of academic,
researchers and people who sitat universities are quite happy
to sit in their dark room, flipthe lights off, turn the laser
on and effectively spend therest of the afternoon there.
But even that specialization,the degree of knowledge that
(40:13):
people have gained working onsomething for their entire lives
, is brilliant.
It's unique, it's a wonderfulresource.
But why do you think it'simportant?
Why should professionals getout of their dark room and talk
to instead of saying dumb anddown, I'm going to say general
public anyone who's not at auniversity?
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Well, I think well, okay, let's start off with the
most obvious one.
If it's funded by the public,then I think they it's required
that they do that.
I think they have aresponsibility, because there's
public dollars coming in, and Ithink they have a responsibility
to the public to explain whatthey're doing with the research.
But I also think it's importantthat scientists learn how to do
this, because we areincreasingly in an age of
(40:53):
misinformation, and so I thinkit's important that they get out
there, explain how scienceworks, what truly is the process
of science?
It's messy.
It's a messy process behind thescenes, and make sure the
public in general knows how itworks so that they have
confidence in it, and then theycan help.
(41:18):
That starts the process ofbeing able to differentiate
between science and conspiracytheories, and information that
comes from reputed sourcesversus misinformation that comes
from just because it's on theinternet, it has to be true,
which we know is not the case.
So I think that scientists havegot to do more of that to help
(41:44):
educate the public.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
So, in that regard, then, in your experience and
everything that you've done sofar, everyone that you've worked
with spoken to as well I'mgoing to come back to a question
that's going to be related tothis.
But what else can we do?
There's all of the approaches,the mandates.
One thing that comes to mind,for example, is with regards to
(42:06):
climate change.
So I absolutely adore FormulaOne as a sport, and Formula One
now talks about net zero, how,by 2030, everything has to be
net zero.
But that's a mandate.
That is something that theyhave made as a promise to a
future version.
These already exist.
So what more can we do on auniversity or an organization or
(42:31):
a professional body level, andwhat can individuals do?
Speaker 1 (42:35):
I think let's start off with straws.
This is something thatindividuals can do.
Why on earth do we have strawsReally?
Not that that was there in theforefront, but as we've had this
discussion, at least in theUnited States, about some places
(42:58):
banning straws, I'm just like,yeah, why I can drink, or out of
a.
You know, that's one littletiny thing, but when you imagine
the number of things like that,like another thing that gets me
are the cake cups.
You know the coffee pods.
It's one.
(43:20):
So I've got a coffee pod overhere and I just bring the bag of
coffee and I do it in a blah,blah, blah, blah.
Right, I think we've even gotthe metal coffee.
You know where the grinds go.
Yes, there you go.
Imagine, like, how much of alandfill have we created from
(43:41):
those pods?
So, yeah, we can't go out andscoop up all the garbage that's
in the ocean right now, but wecan certainly, one person at a
time, do that on a very localplace.
That, by the way, costs nomoney, right?
Yeah, that kind of thingabsolutely costs no money.
And actually the weird thing is, let's take the coffee pods,
(44:03):
for example.
It saves money because if youget a bag of coffee, it's less
than the equivalent amount ofthose pods.
So I think that that's the kindof stuff that needs to be doing.
But then you know the biggerorganizations.
You know they should be doingposition papers and everything,
because we know that this is abig political hot potato.
But I don't think we should shyaway from it.
(44:24):
I mean, there's too much.
When the politicians say thekind of stuff that they say, it
seems like everybody justwithdraws because they're
worried about the funding beingpulled and I just feel like that
, as a unified source, everybodyshould go forward on this and
say no, that it's just notcorrect.
You lost me with that question.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
I mean, it's one of those things that we always ask
ourselves what can an individualdo?
The common question that peopleask is how much impact?
Is me doing one little thinggoing to make a difference in
the grand scheme of things?
But then you sort of rule thatback to if you do something and
a hundred people do the samething, now you've created a
positive impact, and I think,when it comes to impact, I'm
(45:10):
going to sort of shift gears nowinto a couple more questions
before I ask you the bigquestion about career advice.
So the question that I had waswe're talking about inclusion.
We're talking about equalityand diversity in the workplace,
wherever you are, in terms ofmaking things inclusive, in
terms of improving therepresentation across the board.
(45:33):
What is the least talked about?
Challenge what is the one thingthat everybody should be
talking about right now?
But you don't hear theconversation happening just yet,
because there's so many aspectsthat come to equal to diversity
and inclusion, but somewheresomething is always either not
looked at or neglected, or it'snot a problem for today, but
(45:56):
could be a problem tomorrow sortof a question, I think, the
role of parents in this.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Okay, so I'll tell you the story.
So I was at a conference thatwas here in Orlando and it was
the homeschool association.
So we took Science Olympiad toget homeschoolers involved and a
mother came up with her twokids, daughter and son, and she
said, oh, my son would love todo Science Olympiad.
(46:23):
And I said, without thinking,well, your daughter would love
it too.
And she said, oh, girls, don'tdo science.
Done Well all the work that NSFdoes to try to get more females
, more minorities, into it.
If you've got parents at homethat are projecting that message
(46:45):
, those kids unless they're sortof a rare type kid that will
rebel against them in the rightway.
They're going to rebel becausethat means the loss of the
family unit.
If the parents are reallyadamant about that and that girl
was standing there when shesaid that so the kind of impact
that has and we have notaddressed that at all and I
(47:06):
think that that's actually themajor barrier that we face.
I know that at the universitywe have this problem that you
have a hard time reachingaudiences where, if the parents
didn't go to college, they don'tknow how to navigate the whole
university structure and whatit's like.
It's scary big.
How do we do the forms, kind ofthing?
(47:28):
So you have to work with theparents, boy, that's a big piece
.
That's a big piece, and that issomething that I've never
really heard anybody talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
And I think that's quite interesting because, in
the grand scheme of things, ifyou look at it, most people who
come to outreach events, mostpeople who come to science fairs
and events like that, that isalready a certain buy-in to the
idea from the parents.
But if a parent actually bringsboth their kids one male, one
female and goes to do science infront of the person, you're
(48:02):
quite right.
You've effectively destroyedhow much effort of work has been
done to make sure that thatequal stage is present.
On the flip side, there is alsoprobably interactions you've
had that are extremely positive.
I'll tell you one of my own, tosort of see if that gets the
board rolling for you.
The first outreach event I did,I went to a school and this was
(48:24):
after hours, so that they hadtheir entire school, went back
home and the parents were theninvited to come back for an
evening outreach session.
I had a physics kit with me and, in the simplest of ways, take
a plastic bottle, a soft drinkbottle, whirl it around and then
take the cap off and what youhave is a whirlpool as the water
(48:45):
leaves the bottle.
I had a little girl, who wasprobably 10 years old, who came
up to me and told me you must bea magician.
That is quite amazing.
Literally on that day I thoughtI'm going to do this for the
rest of my career.
Have you had any goodexperiences?
Speaker 1 (49:02):
I'm sure I have.
I've had a lot, but none that Ican think of.
I wish I had one for that one.
No, I mean, I've done so manythings with science, Olympiad
and teaching and everything.
I wish I had an answer for you.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
I'm sure we can actually have a follow-up
conversation about it and youcan tell us all about it.
That one will effectively bejust your story.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
I think it's quite incredible because we met at
ETOPE earlier this year and itwas quite incredible to actually
see the number of people whowere there, the interactions
that you have had.
It must be quite a wonderfulexperience and more of me
effectively sayingcongratulations, it must have
been a wonderful experience tosit back and see all of these
people from around the worldcome together and talk about
(49:54):
education, about how do we trainthe next generation of optics
and photonics individuals whocan then continue the wonderful
work that you have done.
I'll conclude with a simplequestion, and I know we've
talked about STEM.
We've talked about equality,diversity, inclusion, all of the
work that you've done atdifferent school levels.
(50:17):
We usually try and cater foryoung professionals and now,
obviously, young professionalsfor the EdGRIP play is a very,
very important rather 15 yearsafter your first degree could be
anyone.
Basically, what is the onepiece of advice you have for
somebody in the early stages oftheir career?
You can keep the specific STEM.
You can keep it to a specificsocietal impact, or this could
(50:39):
be a lesson that you've learnedin all of the experience that
you have had, and let this be,for example, no pressure the
concluding statement of ourconversation.
What's the one thing you wantpeople to take away from today?
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Don't say no.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
It's a wonderful experience, isn't it?
It's a wonderful place to be inwhen people come to you and ask
you to do things, ask you foryour help and ask you that give
you the opportunity to have thatimpact.
So it must be quite wonderfulto actually go.
I've actually got too manythings to do.
That's a very unique problem tohave.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
And I guess say this much because as an advisor I get
a lot of students that becausethat's in my job title as part
of being an advisor.
The deal is all I do is clearthe way for them.
Their job is to be a studentand my job is just to clear the
bureaucratic hurdles so they canbe a student.
At the end of the day they'veaccomplished it.
I'm just getting rid of thisstuff that's just messing up the
(51:49):
works as they go along.
It's like I really don't domuch.
I just get in there, clear thepathway so they can be
successful, because I want themto graduate and if they graduate
that makes me happy and that'sfantastic.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
And I think that's quite a wonderful ethos to have
as well, because I am sure, if Iwas at the other end of working
with you or having aconversation with you, I think
it's quite incredible to know,for example, that my only job is
to study and graduate and Idon't have to worry about 100
other things that happen,because graduation, graduate
(52:26):
studies, education is one ofthose challenges where, for the
first time for instance, whensomebody's at university for the
first time life starts tohappen.
For the first time, you havechallenges that you've never
experienced before, and by you,removing those obstacles in some
shape or form is already such awonderful contribution.
So I hope you do many, many,much, much more and I've got
(52:49):
questions for you, but for nexttime.
So you definitely have to comeback.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
All right, I'll do that.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
I wanted to say thank you to both Mike and the Shreya
for that Saim, for everythingthat we've had as a conversation
today.
If there's anything that youwould like to add, this is
everything from me.
Thank you very much to theaudience, but if there's
anything that Shreya or Mikewould like to add before we say
goodbye, then over to you.
But thank you very much foreveryone who's joined us today.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
Nope, thank you so much for having me.
Illuminated by IEEE.
Photonics is a podcast seriesthat shines light on the hot
topics in Photonics and thesubject matter experts advancing
technology forward.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hi everyone and welcome to today's episode of
Illuminated.
My name is Akhil and, as theAssociate Vice President of the
Young Professionals and Chair ofthe Young Professionals
Advisory Committee, it is mypleasure to be your host for
today.
I'm a biomedical physicistworking at the University of
Glasgow, but in my role for theIEEE Photonic Society, I'm
supporting and promotinginitiatives very much like this
(00:37):
one to raise the profile ofvaluable young professionals
within various sectors and alsobring together people who will
give us valuable input for ourjourneys along the way as well.
The Young ProfessionalsInitiative is for graduate
students, post-doctoralcandidates and early career
researchers anyone after 15years, both their first degree.
(00:59):
This affinity group within thePhotonic Society is committed to
helping one pursue a career inPhotonics.
We're here to help to evaluateyour career goals, to better
understand technical pathwaysand subject matters, help refine
skills and bring people closertogether so that professional
networks can get strongerthrough mentorships and many
(01:19):
other initiatives.
So on to our podcast for today.
This podcast is one I've beenlooking forward to all week.
Sometimes you go to conferencesas I did to go to Florida
earlier this year to eat up andyou meet people who make you
feel like simply being in theirpresence might give you a few
bright ideas.
Our special guest for today, mrMike McKee, and moderator
(01:41):
Sripriya Sundararajan are ourguests for today.
We will talk about STEMeducation, its value for science
and the broader community, andso much more.
Thank you very much forlistening to this episode.
It's definitely going to be agood one.
I'll introduce you to yourmoderator for today, sripriya
Sundararajan.
She's a research engineer atHewlett-Backet Labs.
(02:03):
Within Hewlett-BacketEnterprise, she's worked in the
semiconductor, photonics andoptical telecommunications
industry in many roles, withproduct and test engineering,
technical program managementroles and so much more.
Her breadth of knowledgeincludes silicon, photonics,
35-phase lasers and photonicintegrated circuits.
She enjoys bringing noveltechnologies from design phase
(02:27):
to mass production.
Having received her doctoratein electrical engineering
exploring nanophotonics fromRice University, she completed
her post-doctoral studies atMcMaster University.
She received her BS and MN inelectrical engineering from
Cornell University and she hasorganized a lot of workshops
specifically in the STEM spacefor girls in middle and high
(02:50):
schools, entitled Photonics isFun, which we all know because
we absolutely love photonics.
She's done these initiativeswith Sunnyvale Public Library
and the Girl Scouts of NorthernCalifornia and I am sure we'll
get into that during the podcast.
She's worked with the IEEEWomen in Photonic Silicon Valley
group, and she's also recentlyworked with the IEEE Ventura on
(03:13):
STEM outreach activities in theVentura County.
As many of us, myself includedand Mike as well, she's
passionate about STEM education,outreach, inclusion and
diversity across all fields.
Over to her, and the stage isall hers for her to chat with
Mike.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Thank you, akal.
I'm really looking forward totalking with you and with Mike
today about, like, the STEMeducation pipeline.
The STEM education pipeline hasbeen gaining a lot of attention
nationally now as highlyskilled manufacturing and design
jobs are being ensured in theUS in a move mayor globally to
(03:52):
build a resilience of the supplychain to unexpected events.
The University of FloridaCreole is a leader in training
next generation talent for thephotonics and optics workforce,
with Mike McKee at the verycenter of this effort.
Mike is the associate directorof the undergraduate program at
the University of Florida Creoleand through his work we can
(04:15):
understand and learn how toidentify diverse talent early on
and ensure that we keep uniqueminds engaged and excited, such
that students early in theireducation and through to
collegiate level elect to stayin the field to contribute to
the STEM workforce, especiallyin the areas of optics and
photonics.
(04:36):
So for 33 years Mike has workedin K-12 and higher education.
Starting in 1990, he was a highschool physics teacher, a K-12
science instructional coach,he's run a charter school
science program in the Bay Area.
He's managed it in the NSFfunded GK-12 program and for the
last 10 years he's been theassociate director at Creole in
(04:59):
the University of CentralFlorida.
Mike is also the state directorfor the Florida Science
Olympiad for 20 years, hostingabout 30 state and regional
tournaments as well as twonational tournaments at UCF.
And, by the way, mike likes totravel a lot and he loved
shooting tons of video along theway.
(05:20):
So with that, mike, could youtell us about what you do at
Creole and some of thechallenges you face in making
students aware of photonics as acareer?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
So great to be here.
Yeah, so I basically run theprogram and do everything other
than teach.
So a lot of the work that I doinvolves getting out and
promoting the photonics programacross the state and around the
region, which actually sort ofleads to the second part of the
question.
Is you know what are some ofthe challenges that we face?
The big challenge is no oneknows what photonics is.
(05:56):
So when you go around and ask,have you heard the term
photonics, I might be lucky if 5or 10% of the students that are
in the room raise their hands.
So that's probably the biggestchallenge that we face.
And I gotta say, here's theinteresting thing We've actually
had a debate here in thecollege about whether we even
should change the name, to goand call it something else
(06:20):
rather than Photonic Science andEngineering, which is what our
degree is, and maybe change itinto Optical Engineering.
And I'm actually against that,weirdly enough, even though I
just said, this is the challenge, and it's because Photonics is
an unknown term, so a lot oftimes it's easier to get people
hooked on something that's notknown, versus if we went around
(06:42):
and started calling it OpticalEngineering.
I'm a little worried that wewould start to have people go.
Well, that's, you know, I don'twanna be an eye doctor, I don't
wanna go into that kind ofthing.
So we'd have to work on twolayers of messaging.
Try to get the word out.
So you know generally and Ithink this is a problem that's
not just here in Florida butit's across the United States
and around the world is how dowe recruit more students in the
(07:03):
major?
Just by letting them know thatthis is a potential field that
they could go into.
So I think that's probably thebiggest layer that we've got as
far as a challenge right now.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
For sure, mike, and you know, sometimes when I'm
trying to motivate studentsduring our outreach workshops, I
ask them oh, what do you thinkPhotonics is?
What do you think lasers are?
And for example, a young girlwas just like a laser is
something you use to tease catswith.
So you know we wanna kind ofengage interest but perhaps like
share all the other things thatyou can do that are cool with
(07:37):
lasers.
But that was kind of funny.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Well, and that was really the person who made the
laser that that cat is chasingafter was some level of an
engineer.
So you know there is that.
So that's legit.
I'll go with that.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
For sure it's very accessible.
So with that in mind, mike,you're talking about how, like,
people might not know or befamiliar with what Photonics is
and you know they might havedifferent perceptions and
conceptions about like, opticalengineering, and part of
engaging a diverse population iskind of explaining what
(08:11):
Photonics is about and what it'suseful for.
And, along those lines, what doyou think the importance of
role models and representationwithin the STEM education
pipeline could be in helpingmaking the field more accessible
, and what are some strategiesthat you've deployed to be able
(08:33):
to attract and retain thattalent, as you've experienced at
UCF Creole?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Okay.
So this is a big question.
We I'll start off with this, Ijust pulled these numbers that
our undergraduate program that Irun were 30% female and we're
about 51% minority.
The female female enrollment isgreat and that is something
that is.
It doesn't represent the restof the university's engineering
(09:02):
programs here.
So and we're so we're thehighest of all the engineering
programs here at UCF.
The 51% minority is actuallyright in line with where the
university is, where 52%minority, so that requires sort
of no effort.
It's the number of studentsthat are in the major.
If female students that are inthe major, that is good and I
(09:26):
wish I could say, okay, we didthis and these tactics worked.
What I know we have done isfrom the very beginning of the
major we had a couple of femalestudents who got very active and
involved in the Society ofOptics Students, which is our
undergrad program or undergradclub.
(09:47):
So you know she got to be frontand center and that helped
bring in, I think, more students.
So then recently I asked someof our female students like why
do you think we're at that highnumber?
And they shared that.
Well, the college is friendly,it doesn't feel threatening to
(10:13):
female students and so we have aculture here in the college
that is not the rice of againstfemale students, and you know
there is implicit bias that cana lot of times people will carry
, and just the way that theyunknowingly treat people that
are not like them can have astrong impact on them, whether
(10:36):
they one come into the programor are retained in the program.
And of course, these studentsare also strong advocates for
other students coming into themajor.
So once we start to get a fewof them in, then they start to
say, hey, listen, this is agreat place to be come on in.
Generally, we also provide alot of support among the
(10:56):
students, so it's not acompetitive environment, and so
the lack of that competitiveenvironment I think is also
enticing.
So here's something interesting.
There was Matt Posner and I.
We've done workshops, and inpreparing for some of the
workshops there was a reportthat came out of the United
(11:17):
Kingdom about how do you engagefemales in STEM fields, and one
of the things I learned about itis is that when you start to
create ultra competitiveenvironments, that actually sort
of a negative toward femalesthey this head to head thing a
lot of times doesn't work realwell.
But if it's a collaborativeprocess which could still have a
(11:40):
little bit of a competitiveside, but if it is one in which
you are solving a problem soclimate change is a major
problem, so you know, you dosomething along that lines then
that tends to draw more studentsin and it's more female
friendly.
So being aware of these kindsof things, I think, is really
important.
So I think what we do is justcreate that supportive
(12:03):
environment.
I think we also have built inthe following we have a non
competitive workforce experiencewhen they graduate.
What I mean by that is they'renot competing against each other
for jobs, not like some of theother majors where there's
potentially hundreds orthousands of students graduating
from one university.
(12:25):
Here at UCF it's just not ascompetitive.
So then that means that theycan be a lot more collaborative
and help each other.
So these are the kind of thingsthat we do to try to entice
more students of diversebackgrounds into the major.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
For sure for sure, and I think it's so important to
create an inclusive culture anda sense of belonging for all
the students.
Because, you know, I feel likesometimes competition has its
place, it can create a bit ofadrenaline, it can create like a
desire or urgent people to dobetter, but then there's also
(13:05):
the flip side of it.
So this is something that I seein STEM workshops as well is
that when you're trying to solvea problem like how do I build
the biggest racetrack or how doI make the brightest laser, then
that kind of draws everybody inand it's very collaborative,
and so there's a place for bothbeing the best, but there's also
(13:26):
a place to trade knowledge andexchange and make everyone feel
welcome, and I think that is soimportant.
So, you know, kind of likebuilding on that and building on
your efforts on making UCF avery inclusive environment for
females and other minorities.
(13:47):
You know, is there anythingthat you can tell us about what
you draw from your experience inrunning science olympiads,
where you're like reachingstudents who may be at a younger
age and maybe haven't likeinternalized some of those
societal expectations of whatthey can do or who they can be,
or you know whether science isfor them or not, and share some
(14:11):
instances of maybe how you knowyou were able to interrupt the
bias or encourage minorities anddiverse individuals to like
stay in the pipeline.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So on.
With science olympiad, I'lltell you, the first time I went
to a national tournament it wasup in Washington state.
It was in Spokane, Washington,and this was in 2000,.
I think I was stunned by thelack of diversity there at the
nationals and it was stunning.
(14:46):
I mean, it was just stunning.
It was Asians and white malesand I made a comment about like
this is sort of doesn't have agood look and everything, and it
was sort of like, well, theseare the best students.
And then there was noaddressing that.
There was really a visualproblem there and I would argue
(15:09):
that just by dismissing thatobservation is a problem.
So at the time in the state ofFlorida we were quite small, so
we only had gosh at that point,you know, probably 20 teams
competing.
As we've gotten larger, we'vegrown more diverse because we've
gotten into more schools andeverything, and what you see is
that the regional tournaments.
(15:29):
So Science Olympiad is acompetition for middle and high
school students.
They compete as teams of 15together in 23 different events.
So these 15 students form ateam, they go off to the
competition and compete in these23 different events against
other students and everything,and so some of them are
(15:49):
knowledge based, Some things arebuilding and some things are
more lab based.
So what we also see is thatsome female students will
sometimes go to some types ofevents versus the males.
Now, this is not exclusive.
I'm not saying that all thefemales go and do all the
knowledge based events and viceversa, but we started to see a
(16:11):
little bit of this natural ebband flow.
But just by getting larger, wewere able to attract more
students into the program.
I was not in a position toaffect what was happening at the
national level.
I did serve on the executiveboard, but I actually think it's
still a challenge that theyhave in getting diverse faces at
(16:35):
the nationals.
I'll say this much we did havea state competition here while I
was still doing this.
It was probably 2012, 2013.
And we had an all female.
There were all girls.
I think it was middle school.
They had the best fun and Ithink we'd heard from the
teacher that they won one medaland they lost their minds when
(16:57):
they won that one medal, butthey had the most fun.
So, don't you know, they wentback to the school and talked
that up.
That's the kind of thing thatyou want.
So the fun part is what I thinkwas triggering it, but I
actually enjoyed it because Iwas doing the award ceremony and
they sort of losing their minds, but they were cheering for
everybody else.
So I don't know, I don't have agood answer for this.
(17:18):
This is actually sort of thechallenge that I wish we did
have an answer.
I'm gonna turn that around.
How do you think, how can youinterrupt bias?
I mean, is there when you'redoing workshops and everything?
What does the workshop looklike?
You know, when you'reconstructing this and getting
(17:39):
people in, what does that looklike?
Speaker 3 (17:41):
You know, I think that, like you touched upon a
couple of things like the roleof having fun, making science
something that's fun andwelcoming instead of being
something that's for someoneelse or something that's scary.
When I was organizing workshopsin the Sunnyvale library,
oftentimes even the people whoare facilitating the activities,
(18:01):
who are from the best companiesin the Bay Area, were having
more fun.
Like we got into trouble forthrowing like frisbees with LED
lights on them and the girlsperhaps learned from that that
like hey, you know what.
This is something that you seelike grownups, like having a lot
of fun with, and maybe it'ssomething for me, right?
(18:21):
Because one other thing thatyou brought up, mike, was the
impact of being a visualminority.
So often, what happens if you gointo this space and then you go
and you look around and likethere's no one who looks like
you there, there's no one whomaybe you know you can identify
with there, then the firstquestion as a human being that
(18:43):
may cross one's mind is do Ibelong here?
And I've grown so accustomed tobeing in, like you know,
engineering spaces where, likethere might be less women For me
.
I've gotten used to it to theextent that, like when I was in
Bangalore Airport, I wasstanding in the all men's line
and I didn't even notice tillthe guard came up to me and said
, hey, excuse me, there's aladies line, can you please go
(19:04):
there?
I'm like, oh right, okay, soI'll go over there, you know.
But it's bringing that barrierdown, I think, showing you know,
women and people of color, thatthese spaces are for them.
They have very valuable ideasthat what they bring to the
table, quite literally, maybesomething different, and I think
(19:27):
that, like you know, we've hadlike different mixes of people
and different demographics, butfor me personally, until a
photonics activity looks liketarget, I think we all still
have work to do.
You know, that's what I think.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
That's actually a great like.
Yeah, if it looks like target,then we're there.
Here's the interesting thing isthen what do you?
How do you get students orwhoever to confront when they
come up against resistance?
Right, because they may not beequipped with how to handle that
(20:05):
, and I don't know that there'sa lot of people that are
equipped to be able to handlewhat happens when they encounter
some level of either sexism,racism, namierism, right, how do
you do that?
How do you do it without, like,getting punched in the face and
(20:26):
draw attention to it?
You know, if it's people youknow, then it's probably easier,
but then we also encounter thisall the time, you know, at
Target, for example.
It can still happen there aswell.
So I guess that's.
The question is what do you doto try to you know, person by
person changes, or at leastbring some awareness that like,
(20:46):
hey, you know, you probably needto really rethink what you're
doing here, you know, so you canbe a little bit more inclusive.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
For sure.
I think that, like you know,maybe earlier on I thought that
fighting prejudice was somethingthat you would do, as like
Mahatma Gandhi did or MartinLuther King did, where you're
standing on a big memorialaddressing a large group of
people and saying, you know, Ihave a dream, for example.
Right, but I think that, likeaddressing prejudice is as much
(21:16):
as something that happens in thesmall moments, like when you're
correcting people, you're like,hey, this is your assumption
about me, but no, that's notright, you know.
Or it can be a gentle moment,it can be a small moment, but
it'll be a transformative momentfor whoever is at the other
side of prejudice.
You know, and I think we allencounter prejudice, maybe we
(21:40):
also maybe make assumptions thatwe need to correct in ourselves
.
So I think it's like a slow andsteady work.
It's something that needs tohappen, and people like yourself
my core allies who are withinthe system, who know how the
system work and perhaps areaware and, like you know,
(22:01):
looking at ways to draw peoplein, are very important because,
you know, if you wanna changethe system, then you have to
work with it.
It.
Revolutions are fine, but maybethe small moments where you're
kind of like doing a maybeattitude correct, as they would
say.
In aeronautics terms.
Those are equally important as,like the large, you know,
(22:23):
spotlight, limelight moments ofpeople having a large stage and
a big message, those areimportant too.
They help draw people in.
But you know, for example, inyour Science Olympiad example, a
smile and hey, welcome, we'reso glad to have you here, it
goes a long way to get peopleover those initial jitters.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, and you know the other thing I think this
happens a lot is that the youknow when something happens,
because I run into this all thetime what's the one thing that
you do not wanna hear?
Well, you're the only one withthis problem.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Mm-hmm.
Yes sure?
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Okay, seriously, that's probably not true and
that statement is absolutelydismissive.
And it really doesn't matterwhat it is, because my view is
if I've got a student because Ialso do advising for our program
so if a single student comes tome with I don't care what the
problem is.
I'm having problem registeringfor classes or I'm having
problems with another student,and I've had those on both sides
(23:26):
.
You're the only one with thatproblem, but it's still a
problem and it's utterlydismissive to use that kind of
terminology.
So by just watching what issaid can, a lot of times, be
either the solution orcontribute to the problem.
(23:46):
So that's where it's like takinga person seriously about where
they are and addressing that cango a long way.
And so and by the way, I doknow because I've had this
happen where we've had studentsthat have had other, you know,
they've had confrontations inclass that were sexist related
(24:07):
confrontations and the way thatit gets addressed.
They talk and they tell otherstudents and either they're
gonna say, oh yeah, mike isgonna take care of this or is
looking into it, or he dismissedme, and which do you think is
gonna have a bigger impact, youknow?
So it can be very destructiveif it's.
(24:29):
I got dismissed.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
For sure, for sure.
And I think that in order tomake a space inclusive, people
need to feel both visible aswell as heard.
And so I think it's veryimportant, as a leader or a
person in a position ofauthority, to do that to, you
know, allow people to feel thatthey're part of a community and
(24:52):
allow them to feel that whatthey're facing is something that
others are facing, that they'rebeing heard, that they're
visible and that that's beingtaken into account in order to
figure out how to fix the issue.
Because that's the other thingabout diversity, you know, it's
that because the perspective isa unique one or a new one, then,
like, there might be like biasthat has not been seen before or
(25:17):
has not been perceived before,but it is now, you know.
So I think that is so importantand, you know, I think that
like it's top of mind for peopleand it's really important, as
we're trying to solve these bigproblems, these big societal
problems, in a collaborativemanner, to continue to do that,
(25:40):
to continue to like, amplifythose voices and make sure
people are seen.
But that I'd like to pivot alittle bit and just kind of get
your thoughts on some of thecontributions.
Perhaps that a school likeCreole Florida could have to
solving some of the big issueswe're seeing with climate change
(26:01):
, with, like you know, with allthe like extreme weather events
we're seeing, you know, what doyou think the role of photonics
and the role of likediversifying STEM education
pipeline is to kind ofpreserving, monitoring, saving
(26:22):
spectacular systems, ecosystemssuch as we see in Florida, you
know?
Do you find that that can havea role in motivating students to
kind of join and study andlearn about photonics?
You know, what are yourthoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Well, I think that the you know any challenge that
we face, the more diverse voicesand faces that you've got, they
can bring unique positions tothe table to help solve these
problems.
I was listening to a podcast on.
It was Hidden Brain and it wasjust this.
I just finished it this morningand it was on great teams how
(27:00):
do you make great teams?
And they it had nothing to dowith intelligence.
There was no correlationbetween intelligence and the
making of a great team.
But what they said is like, ifthere was diversity so they were
talking about basically femalesand everything if there was a
good mix of females and males,then that actually led to better
(27:21):
teams.
And they think it's because thefemales tend to be more
attentive to other people, wherethe males will just dominate
and roll over people, you know.
So the females will be like hey, you know, this person hasn't
spoken here, maybe they've gotsome ideas and they can open up
the floor for more diversevoices.
And, of course, we know thatanytime that there's more
(27:43):
diversity on any team, theybring perspectives that we never
even considered right.
And so we've got this planet,which, you know.
We're seeing Hurricane number24 out in the Atlantic right now
I don't know how many and weare right now.
They're getting worse.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Too many, too many.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah, it's like you know, and there are.
There are some countries thatare starting to go under water,
you know, island nations andeverything we need to hear from
them.
There could be solutions outthere, you know.
It's sort of the same kind ofthing as okay, we're destroying
the forest, you know therainforest and everything.
(28:24):
Well, there are drugs in therainforest that we haven't
discovered, and so we're justmowing them down, burning them
and everything, and we'd belosing some advances that can
save humanity, you know, and thenext great virus.
So I think that's why we've gotto have these voices, and
(28:46):
they'll say that photonics, youknow, is one of the things that
will, is great because it usesless energy, it improves
bandwidth, so, really, thedrivers for solving some of the
major challenges of the 21stcentury are gonna be photonics
based.
So it's really important thatwe start getting those diverse
voices in now so that they canbe sitting at the table as
(29:08):
trained individuals that havethe PhDs, that have the masters,
that have the bachelors thathave the associate's degrees,
that have the certificatedegrees, so that they can help
solve the problems as we moveforward.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
For sure, mike, and I think that, like a lot of the
communities that are impacted bythese events are
disproportionately, you know,minority communities or their
First Nations communities.
They're like Native Americancommunities and tribal
communities that, like you know,really have been stewards for
(29:41):
those lands and might have alike a better understanding of,
like the ecosystems and how tomanage the local climate.
Like, for example, inCalifornia, there's been a lot
of wildfires and some of thetraditions of the communities
here have been to do like verylocalized, controlled burns that
could have helped wildfiresfrom like spiraling out of
(30:02):
control.
And even when the tsunami hitin India, some of the tribes in
the Andaman's knew that they hadto go to higher ground and they
were able to like avoid a lotof the negative impact that,
like perhaps urban dwellersdidn't know what to do when the
ocean receded.
So there's a lot of knowledgethere.
There's a lot of things wehaven't discovered about, like
(30:23):
the rainforest, a lot of thingsthat we need to understand
before we lose it, you know, andI think photonics has a very
important role to play in that.
So you know, I know that Akhilis leading this initiative on
behalf of the youngprofessionals and some of the
folks that are listening in mayhelp to like build those bridges
(30:46):
.
Maybe they have things thatthey'd like to share, but, you
know, perhaps they might notknow how exactly to get there.
So, you know, my question to youis if there's a grad student
who's listening to this podcastand maybe it's resonating with
them and they're wondering, youknow, how do I network?
(31:07):
How do I get to where you are?
Because, you know, here I am,I'm considering maybe two or
three different routes.
I might want to be a professor.
I might want to be anundergraduate advisor and help
students along in the pipelinethat speaks to me.
Maybe I want to work inindustry, you know, in a
(31:27):
research lab, and I'm not quitesure which way to go.
So if I go to a conference,then how do I network?
What is your advice to me?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yeah, how do you?
I get this question a lot fromthe undergrads, like what do I
do to network and everything youknow?
A lot of it has to do with justgoing up and saying hello.
I know this is really difficultif you're an introvert.
Right, we sort of live in anextrovert society.
So if you're an introvert, thisis painful to be able to go up
(31:58):
and engage with somebody and thereality is that's, you know,
that's what you have to do.
You don't have to be showy andeverything, but just introduce
yourself.
And what I also find is good ismaybe if you're shy, you don't
have to talk about yourself.
Ask questions, come loaded withquestions and you'll find that
(32:19):
when you ask people questionslike we are here, the person who
talks about themselves walksaway from the conversation like
man, that was great, you know.
So if you go up to a person andthey walk away and you may not
have said much because you maybe an introvert, they're gonna
walk away remembering.
So you know that's a greatlittle tactic.
(32:40):
Of course, if you're anextrovert, then it's super easy
to be able to network and get toknow people you know, collect
business cards and put yourselfinto as many opportunities as
you can.
I know, you know, okay.
So I did Science Olympiad whileI was teaching and then I also
became Science InstructionalCoach.
So I was the Science OlympiadState Director for 20 years,
(33:04):
while I had another job I meanthat was a volunteer job because
I had this incapacity of sayingno.
I mean I said yes to everything.
As I've gotten older, I say nomore because I'm lazy and I've
said yes to a lot of things inthe past.
But I think, availing yourselfas many opportunities as you can
(33:26):
, you may be exhausted, you know, and go my goodness, why did I
do that?
But that'll give you someopportunities.
And then the deal is is that ifyou do something so I tell this
to the undergrads go do aninternship.
If you don't like it, you'velearned something, because
sometimes you go to a companythat may not be the right
culture, it may not be the rightfit for you, but you tried it.
(33:50):
So it's better to have a regretof trying and failing than
never have tried at all.
So those are the kind of thingsthat you know you can do, but
you just you avail yourself forthe opportunity to get out there
, you know, and don't say no.
Don't say no, unless you'regoing to try it.
If they say, hey, can youbreathe underwater?
That's probably.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
That is true, and that's so important, mike,
because sometimes, like I think,with unconscious bias, people
might self-select themselves outof the process, and it's always
better to have tried and failedthan to not have tried at all.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
I want to follow up on that Because, yes, this is,
by the way, that is actually avery important lesson Don't say
no to yourself, say let them sayno to you.
You know so, apply for jobs,apply for things, let them say
no.
But don't go up and say no, soI'll tell you.
(34:50):
Here's the deal.
My first job I had a highschool physics teacher.
My first job was actually inmiddle school and I was having a
hard time finding a job.
For some reason in the 1990sthere was actually like a little
bit of a surplus of scienceteachers.
That doesn't exist anymore.
So I found out that the sciencesupervisor for Orange County
(35:12):
Public Schools here in Orlandowas at a luncheon at a hotel by
SeaWorld.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
So I'm like huh.
So I went over to it and itwent up to.
This was there were 300 peoplethere.
They were in the ballroomhaving lunch and I went up and I
said hi, my name is Mike McKeeand I'd like to know if Dallas
Madron is here.
So they go, oh, hold on.
So they went into the ballroomduring lunch.
He came on and said hi, I'mlooking for a job.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
That's awesome.
I'm not joking.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
So he goes.
Well, you know there's a coupleof jobs.
You know what?
Why don't you just come on inand have lunch with us?
Because I'm like unemployed andeverything.
So I think he felt sorry.
I went in, sat at this table inthe middle of the ballroom he
was there.
Somebody the supervisor fromSeminole County Public Schools,
which is just north of here.
Somebody from Miami Dade wasthere.
(36:03):
Every single one of them saidif Dallas doesn't get you a job,
I'll hire you.
It's wonderful, and it was likeit was just one of those crazy
things because I'm like what'sthe worst they can do?
Say no and get out.
But it turns out at the end ofthe week I had two job offers.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
That's a great achievement, mike, and it shows
the importance of puttingyourself out there and like
taking that first step, andthat's just so inspiring.
So with that, I'd like to passthe mic back to Akhil, and I
really enjoyed this conversation.
So much great advice there andI look forward to hearing more.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Thanks, and great here as well.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Excellent.
Thank you very much.
I've got a couple of questionsof my own and then we can sort
of call it a day if it's safe.
But you might have something,Mike.
I got my current position whenI'm based right now.
When I went to a conference andmy lab PI was giving one of the
keynote addresses, I sat at theback of the room, finished my
(37:07):
CV, attached a motivationalletter onto an email and waited
until it was to break.
After his speech, had a chatwith him Very nice to meet you,
you do some amazing work, It'llbe lovely to work with you.
The usual questions and hebasically said okay, could you
send me a CV and I'll take alook.
Took my phone out and hit sendon the phone.
And the best part of this Idon't think he will ever forget
(37:33):
that interaction.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
It works.
I'm telling you because mostpeople say that and they don't
expect it, and when you do itit's just like wow, you know.
And again, what's the worst hecan do?
He'll just ignore it or say no.
So you're right where you areright now.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yep, exactly, it was quite wonderful sort of
listening to your experiencesand all of the all of the things
that you've done.
I've got a few generalquestions, but I'll start with a
very specific one.
I can see that you've done alot of work with the NSF GK12
program.
Can you tell us more about that, in terms of background and
sort of where the program'sgoing as well?
Speaker 1 (38:12):
So that was a program that was funded in the mid
2000s and it was designed to getgraduate students into science
classrooms in an effort toapprove their communication
skills, so it was not designedto turn them into science
teachers.
The idea was that if they werein science classrooms they would
(38:34):
have to learn how tocommunicate with very difficult
audiences that were reluctantlearners, and so we ran that for
three and a half years andthere were a whole bunch of
chapters all around the UnitedStates that did that.
And then the goal is is thatwhen they became scientists,
they would know how tocommunicate effectively with the
public, politicians,non-scientists in a way that
(38:57):
wasn't demeaning.
So when I do workshops, one ofthe things I talk about is you
want to speak simply, and Idon't like the term dumbing down
because of course connotationthat I'm smart, you're dumb and
let me explain it to you youidiot, right?
Speaking simply is, oh, you justlack the information, you don't
(39:20):
have the background, and itcould be a colleague that's in a
slightly different researcharea that just doesn't know the
terminology.
There's a lot of terms that weuse, and so if you're not in
that particular club, then youjust don't understand, right?
So speaking simply just meanshey, explain it in a way that's
not demeaning.
So that's the kind of stuffthat we did and we worked at
(39:42):
over the three years.
I think we were probably at 20different schools in Orange
County, so it had benefit forthe teachers as well and the
students.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
So that's interesting because you're effectively
preparing people to communicatescience, and I know, for example
, from my personal experience aswell, a lot of academic,
researchers and people who sitat universities are quite happy
to sit in their dark room, flipthe lights off, turn the laser
on and effectively spend therest of the afternoon there.
But even that specialization,the degree of knowledge that
(40:13):
people have gained working onsomething for their entire lives
, is brilliant.
It's unique, it's a wonderfulresource.
But why do you think it'simportant?
Why should professionals getout of their dark room and talk
to instead of saying dumb anddown, I'm going to say general
public anyone who's not at auniversity?
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Well, I think well, okay, let's start off with the
most obvious one.
If it's funded by the public,then I think they it's required
that they do that.
I think they have aresponsibility, because there's
public dollars coming in, and Ithink they have a responsibility
to the public to explain whatthey're doing with the research.
But I also think it's importantthat scientists learn how to do
this, because we areincreasingly in an age of
(40:53):
misinformation, and so I thinkit's important that they get out
there, explain how scienceworks, what truly is the process
of science?
It's messy.
It's a messy process behind thescenes, and make sure the
public in general knows how itworks so that they have
confidence in it, and then theycan help.
(41:18):
That starts the process ofbeing able to differentiate
between science and conspiracytheories, and information that
comes from reputed sourcesversus misinformation that comes
from just because it's on theinternet, it has to be true,
which we know is not the case.
So I think that scientists havegot to do more of that to help
(41:44):
educate the public.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
So, in that regard, then, in your experience and
everything that you've done sofar, everyone that you've worked
with spoken to as well I'mgoing to come back to a question
that's going to be related tothis.
But what else can we do?
There's all of the approaches,the mandates.
One thing that comes to mind,for example, is with regards to
(42:06):
climate change.
So I absolutely adore FormulaOne as a sport, and Formula One
now talks about net zero, how,by 2030, everything has to be
net zero.
But that's a mandate.
That is something that theyhave made as a promise to a
future version.
These already exist.
So what more can we do on auniversity or an organization or
(42:31):
a professional body level, andwhat can individuals do?
Speaker 1 (42:35):
I think let's start off with straws.
This is something thatindividuals can do.
Why on earth do we have strawsReally?
Not that that was there in theforefront, but as we've had this
discussion, at least in theUnited States, about some places
(42:58):
banning straws, I'm just like,yeah, why I can drink, or out of
a.
You know, that's one littletiny thing, but when you imagine
the number of things like that,like another thing that gets me
are the cake cups.
You know the coffee pods.
It's one.
(43:20):
So I've got a coffee pod overhere and I just bring the bag of
coffee and I do it in a blah,blah, blah, blah.
Right, I think we've even gotthe metal coffee.
You know where the grinds go.
Yes, there you go.
Imagine, like, how much of alandfill have we created from
(43:41):
those pods?
So, yeah, we can't go out andscoop up all the garbage that's
in the ocean right now, but wecan certainly, one person at a
time, do that on a very localplace.
That, by the way, costs nomoney, right?
Yeah, that kind of thingabsolutely costs no money.
And actually the weird thing is, let's take the coffee pods,
(44:03):
for example.
It saves money because if youget a bag of coffee, it's less
than the equivalent amount ofthose pods.
So I think that that's the kindof stuff that needs to be doing.
But then you know the biggerorganizations.
You know they should be doingposition papers and everything,
because we know that this is abig political hot potato.
But I don't think we should shyaway from it.
(44:24):
I mean, there's too much.
When the politicians say thekind of stuff that they say, it
seems like everybody justwithdraws because they're
worried about the funding beingpulled and I just feel like that
, as a unified source, everybodyshould go forward on this and
say no, that it's just notcorrect.
You lost me with that question.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
I mean, it's one of those things that we always ask
ourselves what can an individualdo?
The common question that peopleask is how much impact?
Is me doing one little thinggoing to make a difference in
the grand scheme of things?
But then you sort of rule thatback to if you do something and
a hundred people do the samething, now you've created a
positive impact, and I think,when it comes to impact, I'm
(45:10):
going to sort of shift gears nowinto a couple more questions
before I ask you the bigquestion about career advice.
So the question that I had waswe're talking about inclusion.
We're talking about equalityand diversity in the workplace,
wherever you are, in terms ofmaking things inclusive, in
terms of improving therepresentation across the board.
(45:33):
What is the least talked about?
Challenge what is the one thingthat everybody should be
talking about right now?
But you don't hear theconversation happening just yet,
because there's so many aspectsthat come to equal to diversity
and inclusion, but somewheresomething is always either not
looked at or neglected, or it'snot a problem for today, but
(45:56):
could be a problem tomorrow sortof a question, I think, the
role of parents in this.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Okay, so I'll tell you the story.
So I was at a conference thatwas here in Orlando and it was
the homeschool association.
So we took Science Olympiad toget homeschoolers involved and a
mother came up with her twokids, daughter and son, and she
said, oh, my son would love todo Science Olympiad.
(46:23):
And I said, without thinking,well, your daughter would love
it too.
And she said, oh, girls, don'tdo science.
Done Well all the work that NSFdoes to try to get more females
, more minorities, into it.
If you've got parents at homethat are projecting that message
(46:45):
, those kids unless they're sortof a rare type kid that will
rebel against them in the rightway.
They're going to rebel becausethat means the loss of the
family unit.
If the parents are reallyadamant about that and that girl
was standing there when shesaid that so the kind of impact
that has and we have notaddressed that at all and I
(47:06):
think that that's actually themajor barrier that we face.
I know that at the universitywe have this problem that you
have a hard time reachingaudiences where, if the parents
didn't go to college, they don'tknow how to navigate the whole
university structure and whatit's like.
It's scary big.
How do we do the forms, kind ofthing?
(47:28):
So you have to work with theparents, boy, that's a big piece
.
That's a big piece, and that issomething that I've never
really heard anybody talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
And I think that's quite interesting because, in
the grand scheme of things, ifyou look at it, most people who
come to outreach events, mostpeople who come to science fairs
and events like that, that isalready a certain buy-in to the
idea from the parents.
But if a parent actually bringsboth their kids one male, one
female and goes to do science infront of the person, you're
(48:02):
quite right.
You've effectively destroyedhow much effort of work has been
done to make sure that thatequal stage is present.
On the flip side, there is alsoprobably interactions you've
had that are extremely positive.
I'll tell you one of my own, tosort of see if that gets the
board rolling for you.
The first outreach event I did,I went to a school and this was
(48:24):
after hours, so that they hadtheir entire school, went back
home and the parents were theninvited to come back for an
evening outreach session.
I had a physics kit with me and, in the simplest of ways, take
a plastic bottle, a soft drinkbottle, whirl it around and then
take the cap off and what youhave is a whirlpool as the water
(48:45):
leaves the bottle.
I had a little girl, who wasprobably 10 years old, who came
up to me and told me you must bea magician.
That is quite amazing.
Literally on that day I thoughtI'm going to do this for the
rest of my career.
Have you had any goodexperiences?
Speaker 1 (49:02):
I'm sure I have.
I've had a lot, but none that Ican think of.
I wish I had one for that one.
No, I mean, I've done so manythings with science, Olympiad
and teaching and everything.
I wish I had an answer for you.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
I'm sure we can actually have a follow-up
conversation about it and youcan tell us all about it.
That one will effectively bejust your story.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
I think it's quite incredible because we met at
ETOPE earlier this year and itwas quite incredible to actually
see the number of people whowere there, the interactions
that you have had.
It must be quite a wonderfulexperience and more of me
effectively sayingcongratulations, it must have
been a wonderful experience tosit back and see all of these
people from around the worldcome together and talk about
(49:54):
education, about how do we trainthe next generation of optics
and photonics individuals whocan then continue the wonderful
work that you have done.
I'll conclude with a simplequestion, and I know we've
talked about STEM.
We've talked about equality,diversity, inclusion, all of the
work that you've done atdifferent school levels.
(50:17):
We usually try and cater foryoung professionals and now,
obviously, young professionalsfor the EdGRIP play is a very,
very important rather 15 yearsafter your first degree could be
anyone.
Basically, what is the onepiece of advice you have for
somebody in the early stages oftheir career?
You can keep the specific STEM.
You can keep it to a specificsocietal impact, or this could
(50:39):
be a lesson that you've learnedin all of the experience that
you have had, and let this be,for example, no pressure the
concluding statement of ourconversation.
What's the one thing you wantpeople to take away from today?
Speaker 1 (50:54):
Don't say no.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
It's a wonderful experience, isn't it?
It's a wonderful place to be inwhen people come to you and ask
you to do things, ask you foryour help and ask you that give
you the opportunity to have thatimpact.
So it must be quite wonderfulto actually go.
I've actually got too manythings to do.
That's a very unique problem tohave.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
And I guess say this much because as an advisor I get
a lot of students that becausethat's in my job title as part
of being an advisor.
The deal is all I do is clearthe way for them.
Their job is to be a studentand my job is just to clear the
bureaucratic hurdles so they canbe a student.
At the end of the day they'veaccomplished it.
I'm just getting rid of thisstuff that's just messing up the
(51:49):
works as they go along.
It's like I really don't domuch.
I just get in there, clear thepathway so they can be
successful, because I want themto graduate and if they graduate
that makes me happy and that'sfantastic.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
And I think that's quite a wonderful ethos to have
as well, because I am sure, if Iwas at the other end of working
with you or having aconversation with you, I think
it's quite incredible to know,for example, that my only job is
to study and graduate and Idon't have to worry about 100
other things that happen,because graduation, graduate
(52:26):
studies, education is one ofthose challenges where, for the
first time for instance, whensomebody's at university for the
first time life starts tohappen.
For the first time, you havechallenges that you've never
experienced before, and by you,removing those obstacles in some
shape or form is already such awonderful contribution.
So I hope you do many, many,much, much more and I've got
(52:49):
questions for you, but for nexttime.
So you definitely have to comeback.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
All right, I'll do that.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
I wanted to say thank you to both Mike and the Shreya
for that Saim, for everythingthat we've had as a conversation
today.
If there's anything that youwould like to add, this is
everything from me.
Thank you very much to theaudience, but if there's
anything that Shreya or Mikewould like to add before we say
goodbye, then over to you.
But thank you very much foreveryone who's joined us today.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
Nope, thank you so much for having me.
Popular Podcasts
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com