November 26, 2024 • 52 mins
Discover how phase change materials (PCMs) are set to revolutionize the future of electronics with our expert speaker, Winnie Ye from Carleton University. Moderated by Rachel Won from Nature Photonics, we unravel the remarkable capabilities of PCMs that enable rapid and reversible shifts in optical and electrical properties. These materials promise significant advancements in areas such as optical communication and neuromorphic computing. Ye offers a trove of knowledge on these cutting-edge technologies, providing career-focused advice to those eager to explore the world of photonics.
Peering into the future, the discussion examines the potential of PCMs in emerging sectors like quantum computing and their integration with 2D materials. Collaboration is key, as we discuss the synergy between academia, industry, and government to drive advancements in this dynamic field. For those at the start of their careers, the podcast offers sage advice on navigating mentorship, the power of volunteering, and the journey to building a successful scientific career. This episode promises a wealth of insights, from technical depths to personal growth avenues in the scientific community.
Host:
Akhil Kallepalli
Chancellor's Fellow and Leverhulme Early Career Fellow
University of Strathclyde, UK
Moderator:
Rachel Won
International Editor
Nature Photonics
Expert:
Winnie Ye
Professor
Carleton University, CAN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of
Illuminated.
My name is Akhil and, as thepast Associate Vice President
for the Young Professionals atthe IEEE Photonics Society, it's
my pleasure to welcome you totoday's episode.
I'm a biomedical physicist andengineer working at the
University of Strathclyde as aChancellor's Fellow and a
Leverhulme Early Career Fellow.
(00:35):
In my role for the IEEEPhotonics Society, I support and
promote initiatives much likethis podcast to raise the
profile of valuable youngprofessionals within various
sectors.
The Young ProfessionalsInitiative is for graduate
students, postdoctoralcandidates and early career
professionals up to 15 yearspost their first degree.
This affinity group within thephotonics society is committed
(00:59):
to helping one pursue a careerin photonics.
We're here to help evaluateyour career goals, better
understand technical pathways,refine skills and grow
professional networks throughmentorship.
Now on to our podcast.
In this podcast we're going todiscuss reconfigurable switching
phase change materials with ourspecial guest and moderator.
(01:22):
So our special guest is WinnieYee from Carlton University and
Rachel Wong from NaturePhotonics, who will be and
moderator.
So our special guest is WinnieYee from Carlton University and
Rachel Wan from Nature Photonics, who will be our moderator.
In today's episode.
You will hear from Winnie as wediscuss her journey, her
research and her ventures, andwe go beyond academia towards
career and research advice aswell.
Today, there is something foreveryone.
(01:44):
Let me introduce you to ourmoderator before I hand you over
.
Rachel Wan is an internationaleditor for Nature Photonics.
She joined the journal in June2006 as one of the four founding
editors.
Rachel and I have met at many,many conferences before, so we
know each other quite well andwe keep missing each other at
conferences as well.
Before that, rachel worked forAston University's Business
(02:11):
Partnership Unit in Birminghamas a Medici Fellow,
commercializing the university'sresearch output, with a focus
on photonics research.
She obtained her PhD inmicrowave photonics and
nonlinear optics as a member ofAston's Photonic Research Group.
She worked for Philips OpticalStorage in Singapore as an
optics engineer after completingher master's degree from
(02:31):
Nanyang Technological Universityof Singapore, doing research in
optical fiber sensing.
She holds a bachelor's degreefrom National University of
Malaysia.
She's a fellow of Optica andSPIE and is a wonderful,
wonderful moderator.
So over to her, rachel, allyours.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Thank you.
Thank you, akhil, for the verynice introduction about me, and
also thank you for ITP, forTechnics Society as well, for
having me today for thisilluminated podcast.
It's my pleasure to be here,yes.
So welcome everybody to today'spodcast, where we dive into the
cutting edge world ofreconfigurable switching using
(03:09):
phase change materials.
We will explore how theseinnovative materials are
transforming electronics, thechallenges in their development
and the potential they hold forfuture applications.
So we've also discussed theunique properties of these phase
change materials and how recentadvancements could spark the
next wave of innovation in thisfield.
So I'm very excited about it.
(03:32):
So I'm sure a lot of us will bevery excited to hear more about
this.
So stay tuned for a fascinatingconversation that bridges
science and technology.
So today we are very pleased tohave our guest speaker, winnie
Yeh from Carleton University.
She's an elected board memberof IEEE Photonics Society Board
of Governors.
So before we get into thedetails about the technology
(03:56):
part, I would like to tell youmore about Winnie.
So Dr Winnie Yeh is a fellow ofOptica and a fellow of the
Engineering Institute of Canada,currently a full professor in
the Department of Electronics atCarleton University.
She's an expert in siliconphotonics with applications
ranging from telecommunications,data communications,
(04:16):
biophotonics and renewableenergy.
Her outstanding contributionshave been acknowledged through
various prestigious awards.
Contributions have beenacknowledged through various
prestigious awards, so includingthe 2021 IEEE MGA Leadership
Award, the 2020 Partners inResearch National Technology and
Engineering Ambassador Award,the 2018 IEEE Women in
Engineering Inspiring MemberAward and the 2018 Engineering
(04:40):
Medal for Research andDevelopment from the Ontario
Professional Engineers.
So, in addition to thesehonours, she received the
Provost Fellowship in TeachingAwards in 2019 and Carleton
University Graduate MentoringAward in 2022.
So Winnie currently holds thechair-elect position of the IEEE
(05:00):
Women in Engineering for 2024,and she also served as an
elected member of the Board ofGovernors of the IEEE Photonics
Society.
What an impressive bio you have, winnie, and welcome you today
to be the guest speaker for thisvery interesting topic on
reconfigurable switching usingphase change materials.
So it's our pleasure to haveyou here.
(05:22):
I'm sure we would like to knowmore, so let's tell us more
about this.
So what are exactly phasechange materials and how phase
change materials enablereconfigurable switching, rini.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yes, thank you so much, rachel, for the wonderful
introduction.
It's my pleasure to be here.
So today we're going to talkabout phase change materials,
pcms.
So PCMs are materials that canconvert, can reversely switch
between different phases,typically between amorphous and
a crystalline state, whichexposed to, when you expose the
(05:57):
material into, with the externallight excitation like light,
heat or electrical currents.
So these phase transitions canresult in significant change in
the material's properties, suchas their optical reflectivity,
electrical resistivity andthermal conductivity.
So what makes phase changematerials suitable for
(06:20):
reconfigurable switchingapplications is that PCMs have a
bi-stable nature, meaning thatthey can exist in two distinct
states, as I mentioned earlier,the amorphous and the
crystalline state, and eachstate has each unique properties
.
Basically, so the transitionbetween these states can be
super fast, reversible andrequire relatively very low
(06:43):
energy, making them ideal forapplications where rapid
switching is essential.
Also, the contrast in theoptical and electrical
properties between the twophases allows for
high-performance modulation,which is critical in
applications like opticalcommunication and neuromorphic
(07:03):
computing.
So the durability andrepeatability of these phase
chain transitions can furtherenhance the reliability and
longevity of the devicesutilizing PCMs.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Okay, good, good.
So I have a question here thatI would like to know more,
because you said that you canuse heating right to change the
phase of the phase changematerials.
Does it need to be very hot?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You know heat could be a issue right, if we have it
in the computer and devices.
Excellent question.
So it's not about the actualtemperature.
Actual temperature is not veryhigh.
But the thing is we're talkingabout nanoscale devices, right?
So when you focus in that, inthat small volume, the heat um
is is extremely high in thatspot, but the the um, if you're
talking about energy that'sapplied to that heat is not very
(07:53):
much yeah so we talk about theenergy efficiency of these pcms,
because you don't really need alot of power to drive these
devices okay, Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
So it's not really an issue like overheat or
something.
No, not at all.
So why is this technologysignificant for the future?
I think it's getting more andmore important.
So why is it?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yes, excellent question.
So I think I can identify fourareas that's very important in
the future for PCMs.
The first one is data storage.
So PCMs will be, in my opinionwill be a key technology in the
development of non-volatilememory devices which are faster
(08:36):
and more durable thantraditional flash memory.
So they have the potential toreally revolutionize the data
storage by offering faster writespeed, greater durability and
higher data densities.
The second area is the telecomright.
So in optical networks,reconfigurable photonic circuits
using PCMs can significantlyenhance the flexibility and
(08:59):
efficiency of data transmission,which is very crucial for the
ever-increasing volume ofinternet traffic that we are
using right now.
The third area I think is goingto be very critical will be the
neuromorphic computing area, sothey can emulate the behavior
of biological synapses, makingthem essential for developing
energy-efficient neuromorphiccomputing systems that mimic the
(09:22):
human brain.
So last one is just a littlebit back up to what the question
you asked earlier energyefficiency right, because, as I
mentioned, they can operate withvery low power consumption, so
making them attractive orsustainable and energy efficient
technologies.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So for all these applications, I'm sure there are
other traditional materialsbeing used now in this kind of
devices for data storage, fortelecoms, for neuromorphic
devices and energy efficientdevices and all these things.
So how do the properties ofthis kind of phase change
materials differ from thetraditional materials?
(10:00):
I mean, what kind of advantagesthat they're offering for us?
You think about replacing thetraditional materials with these
kind of materials.
So what do they have?
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Yes, great.
So I think there are six mainkinds of differences.
So the first one is in terms ofbiostability versus continuous
variation.
So for traditionalreconfigurable switch materials
such as MEMS or liquid crystalsthat we think about, they
typically rely on mechanicalmovements or continuous
(10:35):
variations in, say, alignment ofmolecules or movement of the
parts to achieve the switching.
This can involve very slowresponse times and require
constant power to maintain theswitching.
This can involve very slowresponse times and require
constant power to maintain theswitching state.
But for PCM, because they havethe bi-stability nature, so they
can exist in either theamorphous or crystallized state.
(10:57):
So once it's switched, the PCMremains in its state without
continuous power.
That's why we call itnon-volatile.
So the second unique propertyis in switching speed.
So mechanical ormolecular-oriented based
switches often have slowerresponse times because the
(11:18):
physical nature of the switchingprocess.
You need to move the parts inMEMS devices to introduce the
delays.
For PCM, the transition in MEMSdevices to introduce the delays
For PCM, the transition betweenthe amorphous and the
crystalline spaces in PCMs canoccur in nanoseconds, allowing
for much faster switching speeds.
So this is very critical forhigh-speed memory and optical
(11:39):
communications.
The third one would be inscalability and integration.
For traditional switchingmaterials, such as liquid
crystal, for example, they mayface limitations in terms of the
size and also integration withsemiconductor technologies.
(12:00):
So, as an example for the MEMSthat we talked earlier, they
require significant space forthe moving parts, limiting their
scalability, but for PCMs theycan scale down to nanometer
sizes, making them a very goodchoice for integration with
nanoscale devices, and also wecan do a lot of integration,
(12:24):
which is very critical forelectronics and communications.
Number four would be energyefficiency.
So the continuousreconfiguration in traditional
materials require sustainedenergy input, which can lead to
higher power consumption.
So this is particularly truefor liquid crystal displaced
(12:46):
LCDs that require constantelectric field to maintain the
image.
However, for PCMs, they arenon-volatile, meaning that they
can retain their state withoutneeding the constant power, and
this characteristicsignificantly reduces the energy
consumption, making PCMs muchmore attractive in memory and
logic applications.
(13:08):
Number five durability andcycling.
So for mechanical switches andyou know some traditional
electronic switches they maydegrade over time due to wear
and tear from repeated cyclingright, leading to reduced
reliability, while PCMs, they doundergo structural changes
because you have to switchbetween the two states, but
(13:31):
they're designed to withstandbillions of cycles with very
minimal degradation.
So this durability isparticularly advantageous in
memory applications wherefrequent writing and erasing are
required.
So last one will be opticalproperties.
So traditional optical switchesmay rely on materials whose
optical properties changegradually.
(13:52):
This will require complexmodulation techniques to achieve
desired effects.
Pcms offer a very starkcontrast in optical properties
between the two states that theyare in providing very high
contrast, switching and simplerdesigns.
So I think these are the sixproperties that I can identify.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, so at the beginning you mentioned that
these kind of phase changematerials, their phases can be
changed from unforeseen tocrystalline phases, depending,
by adjusting, maybe the heat,the currents or electric field
or something.
So by using that you can changethe phases of these materials.
(14:36):
So is this going to be veryrobust?
Because, like, for example, youchange the phase, you need
something to hold the phaseright.
So what is the robustness like,like the accuracy of
controlling the face.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Yeah, so I see that.
So PCM is a bistable material.
So once the face has beenchanged, it'll stay in that
state unless you provide anotherexcitation to bring it back to
the other state.
So you don't have to maintainanything to bring it back to the
other state.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
So you don't have to maintain anything, it just stays
in that state without youproactively applying another
excitation to switch back to thecrystallization I see and the
change is abrupt, like azero-one kind of change, not
like a smooth change.
There is a little bit.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
So yeah, so we'll talk about, you know, extreme
challenges later on is that theydo have a little bit time for
the switching process itself.
So it depends on which phaseyou're going a mobilization
process and a crystallizationprocess.
They take a little bit slightlydifferent time, but we're not.
(15:45):
We're not talking about longtime, we're talking about
milliseconds, very short, shorttime for the, for the switching
between the two states.
But once it's switched to thenew state, it's stuck there and
you don't need to provide anypower to maintain a state or
anything.
Um, you only apply uh,excitation when you want to
(16:05):
bring it to another state I see,okay, it's good, it's nice.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
At least I know a little bit more about it, since
you're talking about thechallenges.
So what are the prime, primarychallenges in implementing these
materials for reconfigurableswitching and, uh, how, what are
people doing, now, you know, toaddress this kind of concerns?
Yeah, the issues, yeah ofcourse, so obviously.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Um, I speak so highly of this material and people say
why don't you do it?
Yeah, we want to, obviously,but it comes with challenges,
right?
So the first challenge is theprecise control of the phase
transitions to ensure reliableswitching.
So variation in temperature,heating rates, external
conditions can lead toincomplete or inconsistent phase
(16:48):
changes affecting deviceperformance.
The researchers around thewhole community are developing
advanced material formulationsand doping techniques to
fine-tune the thermal andelectrical properties to enable
more controlled and uniformphase transitions.
To enable more controlled anduniform face transitions.
Additionally, techniques likelocalized heating using
(17:13):
nanoscale heaters or laserpulses, that's targeted to the
specified areas to achieveprecise control over switching
processes, has been done.
The second challenge ismaterial degradation and
longevity.
Right, because we're talkingabout structural change every
time when you are changing theface.
Right?
So the repeated cycling betweenthe two states can lead to
(17:33):
material degradation for sure,such as atomic diffusion, void
formation or face separation.
So this degradation affects thelongevity and reliability of
the device, of course.
So to enhance the durability ofPCMs, researchers are
investigating on new materialswith higher stability and
resistance to degradation.
(17:53):
So, for example, their work onincorporation of robust elements
or compounds that resist atomicmigration is being explored.
Additionally, people have doneencapsulation techniques is
being explored.
Additionally, people have doneencapsulation techniques and the
development of soft heatingmaterials are being studied to
mitigate the effects of cyclingon the performance.
(18:14):
The third challenge would be inthermal management.
So the phase transitions in thePCMs is typically induced by
heating, which can lead tolocalized hot spots and thermal
crosstalk between adjacentelements in very densely packed
device circuits.
So effective thermal managementis very crucial to prevent
(18:37):
unwanted switching and ensuredevice stability.
Improving the thermalconductivity within the
PCM-based devices through theuse of thermally conductive
substrates or integrated heatsinks.
Advanced designs that optimizethe distribution of the heat and
minimize the thermalinterference are also being
(18:59):
developed, and also low-powerswitching techniques such as
electrical or optical excitationare being investigated to
reduce thermal loads.
That's being introduced to thecircuits.
Number four challenge, I think,is in scalability and
integration.
So integrating PCM withexisting semiconductor
(19:20):
technologies and scaling themfor mass production pose
significant challenges.
And scaling them for massproduction pose significant
challenges, right, because wewant to make sure the
compatibility is there with thestandard fabrication process.
So efforts are focused ondeveloping fabrication
techniques that are compatiblewith CMOS processes such as
sputtering or chemical vapordeposition for the PCM layers.
(19:43):
They're also exploring hybridintegration, where PCMs are
combined with other materials ortechnologies to achieve
scalable and manufacturabledevices.
Next challenge, I think alsowould be in the speed and energy
efficiency.
So the goal is always we wantto achieve fast and energy
(20:05):
efficient switching, especiallylike when we're talking about
data storage and in photoniccircuits.
So the energy required toinduce a phase change.
So, rachel, you had thisquestion just before this yeah,
they can be limiting factors.
So, to enhance the speed andenergy efficiency, researchers
(20:26):
around the world are exploringnovel materials with lower
switching energy and fastercrystallization speed, because
between the two phase changes,the crystallization process
takes a little bit longer thanthe amortization process.
So the idea is we want to makeit a little faster.
And also the approaches like wetry to reduce the size of
(20:48):
switching regions using narrownanowires or nanoparticles and
optimize the pulse duration andintensity of the switching
stimuli are also pursued toachieve a faster and more
efficient switching.
Last one is in environmentalimpact and sustainability.
So some PCMs, particularlythose based on chalcogenides,
contain elements that are rareor potentially harmful to the
(21:11):
environment.
So when we're talking aboutconcerns about sustainability of
PCM technology, this is a bigproblem.
So to address these concerns,researchers are investigating
alternative materials that aremore abundant and
environmentally friendly.
Organic-based change materialsand bio-inspired alternatives
(21:32):
are being explored.
So you can see the whole theme,with all these challenges,
really relies on new materials.
How can we find a bettermaterial that can do the similar
things that you know can make abetter option for a fast and
reconfigurable switching.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So that's what I come up with, I see.
So looking for new materials isvery important, a crucial point
in tackling one or two or manyof these challenges.
But another thing is because Ihave this concern as well about
precise switching.
You know how to make sure thatthe switch is like instant and
(22:13):
abrupt, not like in a continuous, you know manner.
So precise switching isimportant, and also the thermal
management.
So, as I say, in the device, ifyou have heat and if you have
more than just one part of thephase change happening, but if
there's another adjacent one, sohow do you manage the whole
(22:34):
thing?
The thermal conductivity inthis case, and because it is
thermal, that means it willaffect the phase change of the
materials.
So it's very important tomanage them well, yeah, and then
, okay, scalability, and alsothe.
Does it mean to?
Do you mean it has to be CMOScompatible?
When you talk about integration?
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Yes, well, clearly you want to be CMOS compatible,
right?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
That's the whole idea that you want to be CMOS
compatible and then you want tomake sure that you can integrate
to the, to the whateverplatform you're working on.
Yeah, absolutely, you coveredit completely correctly.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I see, okay, good, yeah, and so normally, can you
give us some examples ofmaterials, of this kind of phase
change materials?
So example you mentioned justnow chalcogenide and some
organic materials as well, andcan you give some names so that
we have something in mind?
Speaker 3 (23:29):
So right, now the key thing.
I guess at current state people, most majority of the community
, are using chalcogenides.
So GSTs right, gssts right, andthen yeah.
So people try to vary thecomposition, exact composition
of the GST material to make sureit's, you know, with the good
(23:51):
thermal performance, with a goodswitching performance.
So the organic PCMs are newerelements to replace one of the
GST components to see if theycan do better, they can have
more longevity with the device,with the switching between, and
(24:13):
then can we try to make thecrystallization process a little
faster with the otheralternatives.
But right now, at this verymoment, chalk cotton lights are
the primary solutions people areusing.
But clearly it has itsdisadvantages.
So people are trying to.
Can we do better?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, I see yeah.
So obviously, facet materialsare very attractive for
reconfigurable switching becauseof their properties and
auditing the advantages thatthey're offering.
But they're also having lots ofchallenges ahead, you know, for
them to overcome and all thesethings.
So what are the futuredirection of research and
development in this field?
(24:55):
You know, like, how are they?
You know, what do you foresee?
It's going to be yeah for thefuture.
You already summarized a lot ofthem in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
So I think the future obviously you can hear from
what you just said and thesummary that I gave about the
challenges.
The common theme is developmentof new materials with improved
properties, such as lowswitching energy, faster
transition times, greaterthermal stabilities, right.
So researchers are alsoexploring hybrid materials that
(25:25):
combine PCM with otherfunctional materials to create
devices with enhancedcapabilities.
And also another promisingdirection is integrating PCMs
with emerging technologies like2D materials and nanophotonics,
which could lead toultra-compact and highly
efficient reconfigurable devices.
Lead to ultra-compact andhighly efficient reconfigurable
(25:47):
devices.
And there's also a significantinterest in exploring the
potential of PCMs in quantumcomputing, where their ability
to switch states with highprecision could be used to
control qubits.
So I think, in all we said here, advancing fabrication
techniques to enable scalableproduction of PCM-based devices
(26:09):
while maintaining highperformance will be a very, very
, very big part of their futurewidespread adoption.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
In my opinion, work is remaining at the moment, like
research in the university oryou know, for the academia,
interestingly, or it issomething that is being done as
well in the industry.
So if this is a case where,like, what role do the
collaboration between theacademia, industry and maybe
(26:39):
even government?
You know we need funding, moneyand all these things to get
further, so what role do theyplay here in advancing the
face-sense materials forreconfigurable switching?
Yes, so right now.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Obviously the researchers, like myself and
everybody, are still trying toget the best alternative
materials, so we're still in theresearch phase.
The widespreadcommercialization isn't isn't
there yet, so that's why we'retrying to get there.
So, as you, exactly as you said, collaboration between academia
, industry and government isvery, very critical in advancing
(27:17):
this field.
So, academia, like myself andother scientists, we provide the
fundamental research andtheoretical models, right to
understand and optimize theprocesses.
Then the industry drives thedevelopment of practical
applications forcommercialization.
Then, as you also mentioned,government agencies they provide
the funding initiatives andcreate policies that support
(27:41):
innovation and then alsoadoption of new materials in,
say, telecom, defense andhealthcare.
So these collaborations canlead to the establishment of
standards and best practices,making sure the PCM-based
technologies are reliable,scalable and ready for
(28:01):
commercial use.
And maybe partnership also isvery good between the three.
We can accelerate the transferof knowledge from the lab, like
research labs, to the market, soenabling a faster
commercialization or deploymentof the solutions.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
So am I right saying that these phase change
materials, reconfigurableurableswitches, are not yet
commercially available?
Not yet.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Not yet Widely comparable.
Maybe there is a small nicheareas for people to use, but
it's not completely widelyadapted in your Apple computers.
No.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Not yet.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
We see the promises, we see the potential and then we
are hopeful that this is goingto be a really excellent
research direction going there.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, no, I think it is not easy.
The route of commercializationfor any research, any new
technology, new technology, newresearch, to be brought out from
the research lab out to thestreet yeah, to the market, it's
not easy.
So I think your persistence andyour endurance, you know, in
making this whole thing happenis very, very well applauded.
(29:19):
Winnie, you have to keep up thegood work, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
I'm very hopeful that this technology will take over
eventually in my lifetime good,so okay.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
so I think most of us know a lot about this and it's
quite interesting topic for meas well, because it's very new,
and I always think face changematerials can do many things, so
I'm sure it is not only forreconfigurable switching, it can
be for any other applicationsas well.
So hopefully we'll see more outof them in the future.
(29:52):
Yes, good.
Thank you so much, winnie.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Thank you so much, Rachel.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Thank you so, Akhil, back to you.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Thank you very much.
That was absolutely fascinating.
I've written down a lot ofnotes here.
I think I'm going to stack themup and then see how much notes
I've written down a lot of noteshere.
I think I'm going to stack themup and then see how much those
notes I've actually made.
That was very interesting.
Thank you very much, rachel andWinnie.
Before I let you go, winnie,I've just got a couple more
follow-up questions before we go.
So my perspective as an earlycareer researcher somebody
(30:20):
looking at a profile such asyourself, everything that you
have done on the teaching side,on the research and innovation
aspects between mentorship I hada few questions related to what
young professionals might becurious about.
So, given the field that you'rein, I'll start with a
relatively technical question.
If you had any students lookingat building a research career
(30:45):
or an innovation career in thefield of PCMs, what do you think
is the most interesting aspectof it to look at at this stage?
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Hmm, it's a hard question to ask.
Reconfigurable switchingespecially involves PCM.
So Rachel has mentioned themany challenges that we have.
So it is a cutting edge areamaterial science, photonics and
electrical engineering.
So understanding the basics,the principles behind the phase
(31:23):
transitions, the semiconductordevices and optics, will be very
important as you focus intomore specialized topics in the
future.
And then you need to engage inthe research early on.
So you should seek outopportunities to participate in
research projects, such as inthe PCMs right, Whether through
(31:44):
your university internship orcollaborative initiatives, and
then hands-on experience in alab setting will really help you
with practical knowledge thatcomplements your theoretical
understanding and stay curiousright.
This is the key.
You have to keep yourselfupdated with the latest trends,
latest papers, attendconferences, read nature papers
(32:06):
and engage with the scientificcommunity.
And then you need to reallyexplore interdisciplinary areas
such as nanotechnology, quantumcomputing and neuromorphic
engineering, because we said,these are the future areas that
will likely use PCM.
So you want to know what youcan contribute to these.
So obviously, as you mentionedalso earlier, akhil networking,
(32:31):
mentorship so important.
You want to connect withprofessionals who are already
working in this area at thismoment and you need to want, you
want to build a network ofmentors and peers that can
provide you with valuableinsights, guidance and
opportunities.
Right, and I think maybe alsoyou want to develop your problem
solving skills, because wedon't have a solution.
(32:51):
Right, as I mentioned earlier,there are lots of unknown
challenge, unknown solutions tothe challenges we need to solve.
So have a mindset that embraceschallenges and then you should
be open to explore these newsolutions, because we don't have
answers, but we want to try tofind answers.
So that's my advice for newbiesFantastic.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
That's fantastic, and you also mentioned something
that's a very good segue intoour next question.
Clearly, you've been anincredible mentor for a lot of
students and a lot of peerswithin your community, so I was
curious about that perspectiveof yours as well.
Is that something that was veryimportant to you in your career
, or did that become importantas you went along?
(33:37):
What's your perspective on it?
Speaker 3 (33:39):
So mentorship has been incredibly important
throughout my own career, bothas a mentor and as a mentee.
So when I was starting out, Iwas really fortunate to have
mentors who guided me, offeredadvice to me and opened doors to
opportunities that I might nothave discovered on my own.
So their support really helpedme navigate the complexities of
(34:00):
academia and research, and alsotheir encouragement really
pushed me to pursue challengingprojects that ultimately shaped
my career.
So, as a mentor myself now Ifind it equally rewarding to
support the younger generation,the next generation of
scientists and engineers.
It's not just about sharing myknowledge or providing career
(34:21):
advice.
It's about helping the studentsand early career professionals
to find their own paths,building confidence and develop
their resilience needed tosucceed in this very demanding
field.
So mentorship creates a rippleeffect.
What you invest in your menteescan have a lasting impact to
yourself because as they will inturn go on to mentor other
(34:45):
people Absolutely, I thinkthat's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Can you share a bit more about that journey itself?
Have you got an anecdote or astory or anything like that from
your experiences?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
a story or anything like that from your experiences?
Yeah, I think so.
So mentorship really bridgesthe gap between knowledge and
experience to provide asupportive environment where one
can learn, grow and makeinformed decisions.
So for me, this has been a verycontinuous journey, so starting
as a mentee right, where I hadto learn all the importance of
asking questions, seekingfeedback and taking risks under
(35:21):
the guidance of my supervisors,right or my colleagues who have
more experience than me.
So one of the most valuablelessons I learned from my
mentors is the importance ofresilience.
So, because research, especiallyin the innovative fields like
this reconfigurable switching,often involves failures and
(35:41):
setbacks, right, and my mentorstaught me that these challenges
are not roadblocks but ratheropportunities to learn and
improve.
They also emphasize the valueof collaboration, encouraging me
to work with others, shareideas and build on collective
knowledge.
So, from the perspective ofbeing a mentor myself, I've
learned that mentorship is not aone-size-fits-all approach, so
(36:04):
each mentee is very unique, withdifferent goals, different
challenges and differentlearning styles.
So effective mentorshipinvolves active listening,
understanding the individual'sneeds and providing personalized
guidance.
Also, it involves encouragingindependence.
So mentorship is aboutempowering others to think
(36:26):
critically and making their owndecisions, making their own
discoveries rather thanproviding them with the answers.
So yeah, you have to understand.
A lot of times we don't haveanswers.
I don't know the solution to allthese things, but I'm happy to
try.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
So it's a two-way street right.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
As a mentee, you gain wisdom and guidance.
As a mentor, you gain newperspectives from your students
or from your collaborators, andthen you help each other to
succeed.
It's a mutually enrichingexperience.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
And I think that's a very interesting perspective and
a very interesting experienceas well.
I personally, for example, I'vehad an incredible mentor during
my PhD.
I've had an incredible mentorduring my postdoc.
Yet at my career stage, juststarting out in academia, I'm
also looking to mentor studentsof mine who are going to come
(37:15):
through the academic line, butalso I'm still searching for
mentors because I've always gotsomething to learn going forward
as well.
So wherever you are within yourcareer and within the progress
that you're having, you alwaysend up either being a mentee or
a mentor to somebody or theother.
It's a two-way street foreveryone, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
That makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
That's brilliant.
So I'm going to shift gears nowand I'm going to ask you about
some of the experiences you'vehad while you were building your
career.
Now my involvement with thePhotonic Society.
I've worked previously withSPIE and Optica as well.
Volunteering has been a prettysignificant part of my career.
So when did you start doingsuch activities and do you have
(37:59):
any idea of how that's impactedyour career?
Speaker 3 (38:03):
So I began volunteering early in my career
academic career as a graduatestudent.
So I recognized thatcontributing to professional
organizations like yourself IEEE, optica, spie was was not only
an opportunity to give back tothe community but also a perfect
way to grow personally andprofessionally.
(38:24):
So I think volunteering for meallowed me to network with peers
and leaders in the field,broadening my understanding of
the challenges and opportunitieswith my community in photonics,
and to develop leadershipskills that I might not have
required solely through myresearch and teaching.
(38:44):
So the impact on my career hasbeen super significant.
So they helped me build a verystrong professional network
which opened up collaborationopportunities and provided
visibility for my work.
It also deepened my sense ofresponsibility towards mentoring
and supporting others.
So the leadership roles I'vetaken on through volunteering
(39:06):
have helped me to manage teamsmake strategic decisions and
advocate for causes that I'mpassionate about, such as women
in engineering, so all of whichhas been invaluable as my career
progressed.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
And it's a very interesting way of also
illustrating your leadershiptraits, your willingness to work
with people.
I think, as you go through aPhD and a postdoc and you're in
the early stages of your careerand this is independent of if
you've done a PhD and you'regoing into industry, academia,
if you're an early career youngprofessional going into industry
(39:42):
or into research there aredifferent ways of illustrating
your personality traits and Ithink volunteering gives you a
platform to illustrate thosesort of things.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Agreed completely.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Absolutely Fantastic.
I've got a couple morequestions, me too.
Me too, I agree completely.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Volunteering is completely, absolutely fantastic
.
I've got a couple morequestions me too, me too is very
important.
Yeah, it exposes you to many,many new skills that you never
know.
You know you mean somethingthat you will not get inside the
classroom.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
See, absolutely, and I think this is this is good for
the listeners to know.
This is happening completelyorganically.
It has not been rehearsed, butmy next sentence was going to be
I have four questions left andI'd like to pull Rachel back
into the conversation.
So, just like that, I've gotfour questions remaining and I
(40:33):
think the idea is to see if Ican pull a bit of information
from your career, a bit of aknowledge bite, a bit of advice
from both of your perspectives.
You come at this from differentperspectives, so I think your
responses would be quiteinteresting as well.
The way I'll do this, in theinterest of the discussion as
well, is I'll ask my questionand we'll interchange between
(40:56):
which one of you goes first.
So, in the first instance,winnie, you can go first.
The next question, rachel, cango first.
What's the most importantleadership lesson you've learned
and how has it been invaluablein your career?
So, winnie, first.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Okay, rachel, I'll take this one first.
So the most importantleadership lesson I've learned
is the power of empathy andactive listening.
As a leader, it's easy to getcaught up with decision making
and driving projects forward byyourself, but it's crucial to
take the time to understandother perspectives, challenges
and aspirations from your teammembers.
So that's mine.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Fantastic Rachel.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Really, you have said everything.
I wanted to say no, no.
I think listening is veryimportant.
To be a leader, you need to beable to listen and then to
understand any issue and allthese things from other people
before you make a decision onhow to proceed, how to solve the
problems.
I think listening is veryimportant and I think another
(41:56):
one is you know, dare to take arisk as well, I think, as a
leader, because it is your callsometimes to make a decision,
like, for example, in what I'mdoing as an editor in publishing
.
You know we need to makedecision, whether you know to go
ahead with a publication ormaybe to make a decision to
cancel a project and all thesethings.
So we need to be able to takethe risk.
(42:19):
But when I say risk, I'm notsaying any risk.
It's an informed with aninformed decision.
Make an informed decision, yes,yeah, and then just go with it
and then be brave with what youhave made and achieved.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
I think the interesting thing about most
work environments is theoccasional risk that you take is
actually building experience.
It's building knowledge, sothat it's never completely wrong
.
It's always good to take thatodd risk every once in a while.
So my second question if youcould give one piece of advice
for somebody in the early stagesof their career.
(42:57):
Now think about somebody who'sjust graduated an undergraduate,
a master's or a phd course.
They haven't decided if theywant to go into industry, into
public policy, into engagement,into research and innovation,
academia.
What would your advice be tothat person at that stage?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
okay, I think to me.
I think it is very importantthat, uh, as a young, uh master
degree holder or a young phddegree holder, you need to think
a little bit outside the box.
You know, about what you wantto do.
I always say to people that adegree is just like a passport.
It's a passport for you to getto a place and then you try to
(43:38):
make use of that passport to dowhat you always want to do, what
you always love to do, and then, uh, then that is nice life,
you know.
So, think out of the box, yeah,when you're thinking about
which career to pursue,importantly is to follow your
passion.
Follow your passion and use thedegree as a passport to achieve
what you want and don't berestricted by, for example,
(44:02):
maybe a piece of advice from asupervisor.
Be a researcher, stick to onething, no, just be open.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Fantastic Winnie.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
To Atta.
It was excellent advice.
So I think first you need toreally do a really honest
evaluation of yourself.
What are you interested in toreally choose your career path
first?
So are you more interested inresearch, and then you know,
thinking about the future andthen directing students to help
(44:32):
you?
Or are you really you love thedynamics in working industry,
the excitement in delivering acommercial product?
Right?
So you decide what really makeyou passionate about exactly
what Rachel said.
And then, once you choose yourpath, you have to understand in
any career path you choose,there are going to be challenges
(44:52):
for you and you need to reallynot be afraid of the challenges.
You don't want to, you know,hide from the challenges.
You want to lean into them withcuriosity and resilience and
try to solve the problem.
Each challenge you face is achance to learn, to improve and
to build your confidence.
So don't be afraid to ask forhelp or advice from mentors and
(45:13):
colleagues and also just reallyuse the help you can get to
navigate through your careerpath.
Yeah, and then you have toremember your career is a
journey, not a race, right?
so you take your time to explorewhat you want, learn new skills
and figure out what trulyexcites you absolutely.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
I think the the passport idea and the and
exploring new avenues isextremely interesting, because
one of the key pieces of advicethat I actually got in my career
when I was doing my PhD my PhDsupervisor would constantly say
don't look at this as thehighest academic degree you can
get.
Think about this as trainingfor the rest of your research
(45:55):
career.
And that perspective was really, really helpful for setting the
pace.
So another question that I getasked quite often and obviously
I'm sure you get this questionmuch more than I do, given where
you are at your career stagesas well Would you recommend
somebody to diversify theirresearch skills, their expertise
, sort of understand asubstantial amount about a lot
(46:18):
of things, or would you say thatsomebody should become an
absolute expert at a very, verynarrow topic?
Which perspective do you hold?
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yeah, sure, From my perspective, both approaches
have their merits and the bestpath often, in my opinion,
depends on their career goalsand the field they're in.
However, I really believe thatearly in your career, it's
beneficial to diversify yourresearch experience with skill
sets.
So you want to engage yourselfwith different topics, different
methodologies, differentdisciplines can really provide
(46:49):
you with a broader perspectiveand a more versatile skill set
right, which is valuable intoday's interdisciplinary
research environment, which isvaluable in today's
interdisciplinary researchenvironment.
But when you are in thisdiversified area, you can
explore various different partsand maybe you'll discover new
(47:11):
interests or identify new orunique intersections between
fields that can lead toinnovative research directions,
between fields that can lead toinnovative research directions.
Additionally, a diverse skillset can make you more adaptable
and resilient in the face ofchanges of the job market or the
research funding trends rightnow.
But once you gain a solidfoundation and then identified a
(47:32):
particular area of interestthat you want to pursue your
career with, then you can choosea specialized area and develop
a deeper expertise in that niche.
So this combination of broadexperience and focused expertise
can really position you as awell-rounded, flexible and
innovative scientist.
So that's my perspective.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
I think that's very interesting, because the
diversity of skill sets and thediversity of knowledge has a
very, very big value.
This is something that I relateto quite a bit from my
perspective, because from myundergraduate, master's degree,
phd and my postdoc, I've donedifferent topics at each of
these stages.
So when I actually now approacha problem statement or I write
(48:11):
a grant application or I write apaper, the background really
helps because I know quite a bitabout quite a lot of things.
So it's nice to piece the wholepuzzle together in order to
actually make it work.
So my final question for todaywhat would you say are the key
attributes or qualities of youngscientists these days?
The ones that you find in yourexperience are, quote-unquote
(48:34):
successful.
What are the qualities thatthey seem to sort of project,
and what are the things that youthink more young scientists
should get themselves trained in?
Speaker 2 (48:46):
I think to me, young scientists, early career
researchers, should be braveyeah, brave in terms of taking a
new research direction, notlistening to supervisors all the
time yeah, and also be brave inapproaching to.
You know, like leaders in theresearch, in any research field
(49:10):
you know.
Brave in approaching them, totalk to them, to introduce them
to you I mean about yourself, tointroduce yourself to them and
then to tell them about yourresearch, to make yourself known
to the leaders in the field.
I think it's very important,because impression is very
important here.
I'm not talking about askingfor collaboration or something.
(49:30):
It's basically to make themknow about you and your research
.
So be brave.
I think this will make yousuccessful for whatever that you
are doing, not even just foryour career, but as a person.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Absolutely, and Winnie.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Yeah, I think, having a passion right, remain curious
, you want to continuously learnand seek to ask questions, to
explore new ideas and then toreally have that motivation in
you, have that fire in you thatyou want to continue to do that.
And, as Rachel was saying, thatresearch is hard, right, we
don't have solutions.
That's why it's called research.
(50:07):
So, when it is very hard, whenit's very challenging, when
everything is unpredictable,just stay there and then just
being strong, being like strongto yourself and be true to
yourself, being resilient to thesetbacks, to the failure, right
.
And then you just try to reallylook for the long-term success
(50:28):
and look for mentors, right.
So getting help from others,communicate with your peers,
getting new ideas.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
I think it's very interesting, from this side of
the table, sort of listening toyour feedback.
I think it's very interestingfor people to note that none of
the things that we've talkedabout in terms of personality
development have anything to dowith the science.
It's not about scholarlyability.
It's more about put yourselfout there, be brave, ask
(50:59):
questions, engage with people.
It's very interesting that intoday's knowledge-driven world,
I think we're in a scenariowhere personalities get an
opportunity to shine because somany people are doing such
incredible work.
It's just put yourself outthere and make yourself known.
I think that's a very, veryinteresting takeaway.
So thank you very much, rachel.
(51:21):
Thank you very much, winnie.
This has been an absolutelyfascinating conversation.
We've talked about PCMs, we'vegone into technical details,
we've talked about innovations,challenges.
We've talked about empathy andleadership as well.
We've talked about careerdevelopment.
We've talked about professionaldevelopment.
We've covered so many things intoday's conversation and I
(51:41):
think this has been anincredible discussion.
I'm sure everyone at the otherend has enjoyed this as much as
I have, and in the future Ithink we'll definitely try and
do this again at some point.
But best of luck,congratulations for all of your
success, win.
Winnie, it's very nice to seeyou again, rachel, and I'm sure
we'll meet again at a conferencein the future, so thank you
(52:03):
very much.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
Thank you everyone thank you very much.
Thank you Rachel, thank youAkhil, thank you Kristen.
Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of
Illuminated.
My name is Akhil and, as thepast Associate Vice President
for the Young Professionals atthe IEEE Photonics Society, it's
my pleasure to welcome you totoday's episode.
I'm a biomedical physicist andengineer working at the
University of Strathclyde as aChancellor's Fellow and a
Leverhulme Early Career Fellow.
(00:35):
In my role for the IEEEPhotonics Society, I support and
promote initiatives much likethis podcast to raise the
profile of valuable youngprofessionals within various
sectors.
The Young ProfessionalsInitiative is for graduate
students, postdoctoralcandidates and early career
professionals up to 15 yearspost their first degree.
This affinity group within thephotonics society is committed
(00:59):
to helping one pursue a careerin photonics.
We're here to help evaluateyour career goals, better
understand technical pathways,refine skills and grow
professional networks throughmentorship.
Now on to our podcast.
In this podcast we're going todiscuss reconfigurable switching
phase change materials with ourspecial guest and moderator.
(01:22):
So our special guest is WinnieYee from Carlton University and
Rachel Wong from NaturePhotonics, who will be and
moderator.
So our special guest is WinnieYee from Carlton University and
Rachel Wan from Nature Photonics, who will be our moderator.
In today's episode.
You will hear from Winnie as wediscuss her journey, her
research and her ventures, andwe go beyond academia towards
career and research advice aswell.
Today, there is something foreveryone.
(01:44):
Let me introduce you to ourmoderator before I hand you over
.
Rachel Wan is an internationaleditor for Nature Photonics.
She joined the journal in June2006 as one of the four founding
editors.
Rachel and I have met at many,many conferences before, so we
know each other quite well andwe keep missing each other at
conferences as well.
Before that, rachel worked forAston University's Business
(02:11):
Partnership Unit in Birminghamas a Medici Fellow,
commercializing the university'sresearch output, with a focus
on photonics research.
She obtained her PhD inmicrowave photonics and
nonlinear optics as a member ofAston's Photonic Research Group.
She worked for Philips OpticalStorage in Singapore as an
optics engineer after completingher master's degree from
(02:31):
Nanyang Technological Universityof Singapore, doing research in
optical fiber sensing.
She holds a bachelor's degreefrom National University of
Malaysia.
She's a fellow of Optica andSPIE and is a wonderful,
wonderful moderator.
So over to her, rachel, allyours.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Thank you.
Thank you, akhil, for the verynice introduction about me, and
also thank you for ITP, forTechnics Society as well, for
having me today for thisilluminated podcast.
It's my pleasure to be here,yes.
So welcome everybody to today'spodcast, where we dive into the
cutting edge world ofreconfigurable switching using
(03:09):
phase change materials.
We will explore how theseinnovative materials are
transforming electronics, thechallenges in their development
and the potential they hold forfuture applications.
So we've also discussed theunique properties of these phase
change materials and how recentadvancements could spark the
next wave of innovation in thisfield.
So I'm very excited about it.
(03:32):
So I'm sure a lot of us will bevery excited to hear more about
this.
So stay tuned for a fascinatingconversation that bridges
science and technology.
So today we are very pleased tohave our guest speaker, winnie
Yeh from Carleton University.
She's an elected board memberof IEEE Photonics Society Board
of Governors.
So before we get into thedetails about the technology
(03:56):
part, I would like to tell youmore about Winnie.
So Dr Winnie Yeh is a fellow ofOptica and a fellow of the
Engineering Institute of Canada,currently a full professor in
the Department of Electronics atCarleton University.
She's an expert in siliconphotonics with applications
ranging from telecommunications,data communications,
(04:16):
biophotonics and renewableenergy.
Her outstanding contributionshave been acknowledged through
various prestigious awards.
Contributions have beenacknowledged through various
prestigious awards, so includingthe 2021 IEEE MGA Leadership
Award, the 2020 Partners inResearch National Technology and
Engineering Ambassador Award,the 2018 IEEE Women in
Engineering Inspiring MemberAward and the 2018 Engineering
(04:40):
Medal for Research andDevelopment from the Ontario
Professional Engineers.
So, in addition to thesehonours, she received the
Provost Fellowship in TeachingAwards in 2019 and Carleton
University Graduate MentoringAward in 2022.
So Winnie currently holds thechair-elect position of the IEEE
(05:00):
Women in Engineering for 2024,and she also served as an
elected member of the Board ofGovernors of the IEEE Photonics
Society.
What an impressive bio you have, winnie, and welcome you today
to be the guest speaker for thisvery interesting topic on
reconfigurable switching usingphase change materials.
So it's our pleasure to haveyou here.
(05:22):
I'm sure we would like to knowmore, so let's tell us more
about this.
So what are exactly phasechange materials and how phase
change materials enablereconfigurable switching, rini.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yes, thank you so much, rachel, for the wonderful
introduction.
It's my pleasure to be here.
So today we're going to talkabout phase change materials,
pcms.
So PCMs are materials that canconvert, can reversely switch
between different phases,typically between amorphous and
a crystalline state, whichexposed to, when you expose the
(05:57):
material into, with the externallight excitation like light,
heat or electrical currents.
So these phase transitions canresult in significant change in
the material's properties, suchas their optical reflectivity,
electrical resistivity andthermal conductivity.
So what makes phase changematerials suitable for
(06:20):
reconfigurable switchingapplications is that PCMs have a
bi-stable nature, meaning thatthey can exist in two distinct
states, as I mentioned earlier,the amorphous and the
crystalline state, and eachstate has each unique properties
.
Basically, so the transitionbetween these states can be
super fast, reversible andrequire relatively very low
(06:43):
energy, making them ideal forapplications where rapid
switching is essential.
Also, the contrast in theoptical and electrical
properties between the twophases allows for
high-performance modulation,which is critical in
applications like opticalcommunication and neuromorphic
(07:03):
computing.
So the durability andrepeatability of these phase
chain transitions can furtherenhance the reliability and
longevity of the devicesutilizing PCMs.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Okay, good, good.
So I have a question here thatI would like to know more,
because you said that you canuse heating right to change the
phase of the phase changematerials.
Does it need to be very hot?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
You know heat could be a issue right, if we have it
in the computer and devices.
Excellent question.
So it's not about the actualtemperature.
Actual temperature is not veryhigh.
But the thing is we're talkingabout nanoscale devices, right?
So when you focus in that, inthat small volume, the heat um
is is extremely high in thatspot, but the the um, if you're
talking about energy that'sapplied to that heat is not very
(07:53):
much yeah so we talk about theenergy efficiency of these pcms,
because you don't really need alot of power to drive these
devices okay, Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
So it's not really an issue like overheat or
something.
No, not at all.
So why is this technologysignificant for the future?
I think it's getting more andmore important.
So why is it?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yes, excellent question.
So I think I can identify fourareas that's very important in
the future for PCMs.
The first one is data storage.
So PCMs will be, in my opinionwill be a key technology in the
development of non-volatilememory devices which are faster
(08:36):
and more durable thantraditional flash memory.
So they have the potential toreally revolutionize the data
storage by offering faster writespeed, greater durability and
higher data densities.
The second area is the telecomright.
So in optical networks,reconfigurable photonic circuits
using PCMs can significantlyenhance the flexibility and
(08:59):
efficiency of data transmission,which is very crucial for the
ever-increasing volume ofinternet traffic that we are
using right now.
The third area I think is goingto be very critical will be the
neuromorphic computing area, sothey can emulate the behavior
of biological synapses, makingthem essential for developing
energy-efficient neuromorphiccomputing systems that mimic the
(09:22):
human brain.
So last one is just a littlebit back up to what the question
you asked earlier energyefficiency right, because, as I
mentioned, they can operate withvery low power consumption, so
making them attractive orsustainable and energy efficient
technologies.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So for all these applications, I'm sure there are
other traditional materialsbeing used now in this kind of
devices for data storage, fortelecoms, for neuromorphic
devices and energy efficientdevices and all these things.
So how do the properties ofthis kind of phase change
materials differ from thetraditional materials?
(10:00):
I mean, what kind of advantagesthat they're offering for us?
You think about replacing thetraditional materials with these
kind of materials.
So what do they have?
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Yes, great.
So I think there are six mainkinds of differences.
So the first one is in terms ofbiostability versus continuous
variation.
So for traditionalreconfigurable switch materials
such as MEMS or liquid crystalsthat we think about, they
typically rely on mechanicalmovements or continuous
(10:35):
variations in, say, alignment ofmolecules or movement of the
parts to achieve the switching.
This can involve very slowresponse times and require
constant power to maintain theswitching.
This can involve very slowresponse times and require
constant power to maintain theswitching state.
But for PCM, because they havethe bi-stability nature, so they
can exist in either theamorphous or crystallized state.
(10:57):
So once it's switched, the PCMremains in its state without
continuous power.
That's why we call itnon-volatile.
So the second unique propertyis in switching speed.
So mechanical ormolecular-oriented based
switches often have slowerresponse times because the
(11:18):
physical nature of the switchingprocess.
You need to move the parts inMEMS devices to introduce the
delays.
For PCM, the transition in MEMSdevices to introduce the delays
For PCM, the transition betweenthe amorphous and the
crystalline spaces in PCMs canoccur in nanoseconds, allowing
for much faster switching speeds.
So this is very critical forhigh-speed memory and optical
(11:39):
communications.
The third one would be inscalability and integration.
For traditional switchingmaterials, such as liquid
crystal, for example, they mayface limitations in terms of the
size and also integration withsemiconductor technologies.
(12:00):
So, as an example for the MEMSthat we talked earlier, they
require significant space forthe moving parts, limiting their
scalability, but for PCMs theycan scale down to nanometer
sizes, making them a very goodchoice for integration with
nanoscale devices, and also wecan do a lot of integration,
(12:24):
which is very critical forelectronics and communications.
Number four would be energyefficiency.
So the continuousreconfiguration in traditional
materials require sustainedenergy input, which can lead to
higher power consumption.
So this is particularly truefor liquid crystal displaced
(12:46):
LCDs that require constantelectric field to maintain the
image.
However, for PCMs, they arenon-volatile, meaning that they
can retain their state withoutneeding the constant power, and
this characteristicsignificantly reduces the energy
consumption, making PCMs muchmore attractive in memory and
logic applications.
(13:08):
Number five durability andcycling.
So for mechanical switches andyou know some traditional
electronic switches they maydegrade over time due to wear
and tear from repeated cyclingright, leading to reduced
reliability, while PCMs, they doundergo structural changes
because you have to switchbetween the two states, but
(13:31):
they're designed to withstandbillions of cycles with very
minimal degradation.
So this durability isparticularly advantageous in
memory applications wherefrequent writing and erasing are
required.
So last one will be opticalproperties.
So traditional optical switchesmay rely on materials whose
optical properties changegradually.
(13:52):
This will require complexmodulation techniques to achieve
desired effects.
Pcms offer a very starkcontrast in optical properties
between the two states that theyare in providing very high
contrast, switching and simplerdesigns.
So I think these are the sixproperties that I can identify.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Yeah, so at the beginning you mentioned that
these kind of phase changematerials, their phases can be
changed from unforeseen tocrystalline phases, depending,
by adjusting, maybe the heat,the currents or electric field
or something.
So by using that you can changethe phases of these materials.
(14:36):
So is this going to be veryrobust?
Because, like, for example, youchange the phase, you need
something to hold the phaseright.
So what is the robustness like,like the accuracy of
controlling the face.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Yeah, so I see that.
So PCM is a bistable material.
So once the face has beenchanged, it'll stay in that
state unless you provide anotherexcitation to bring it back to
the other state.
So you don't have to maintainanything to bring it back to the
other state.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
So you don't have to maintain anything, it just stays
in that state without youproactively applying another
excitation to switch back to thecrystallization I see and the
change is abrupt, like azero-one kind of change, not
like a smooth change.
There is a little bit.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
So yeah, so we'll talk about, you know, extreme
challenges later on is that theydo have a little bit time for
the switching process itself.
So it depends on which phaseyou're going a mobilization
process and a crystallizationprocess.
They take a little bit slightlydifferent time, but we're not.
(15:45):
We're not talking about longtime, we're talking about
milliseconds, very short, shorttime for the, for the switching
between the two states.
But once it's switched to thenew state, it's stuck there and
you don't need to provide anypower to maintain a state or
anything.
Um, you only apply uh,excitation when you want to
(16:05):
bring it to another state I see,okay, it's good, it's nice.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
At least I know a little bit more about it, since
you're talking about thechallenges.
So what are the prime, primarychallenges in implementing these
materials for reconfigurableswitching and, uh, how, what are
people doing, now, you know, toaddress this kind of concerns?
Yeah, the issues, yeah ofcourse, so obviously.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Um, I speak so highly of this material and people say
why don't you do it?
Yeah, we want to, obviously,but it comes with challenges,
right?
So the first challenge is theprecise control of the phase
transitions to ensure reliableswitching.
So variation in temperature,heating rates, external
conditions can lead toincomplete or inconsistent phase
(16:48):
changes affecting deviceperformance.
The researchers around thewhole community are developing
advanced material formulationsand doping techniques to
fine-tune the thermal andelectrical properties to enable
more controlled and uniformphase transitions.
To enable more controlled anduniform face transitions.
Additionally, techniques likelocalized heating using
(17:13):
nanoscale heaters or laserpulses, that's targeted to the
specified areas to achieveprecise control over switching
processes, has been done.
The second challenge ismaterial degradation and
longevity.
Right, because we're talkingabout structural change every
time when you are changing theface.
Right?
So the repeated cycling betweenthe two states can lead to
(17:33):
material degradation for sure,such as atomic diffusion, void
formation or face separation.
So this degradation affects thelongevity and reliability of
the device, of course.
So to enhance the durability ofPCMs, researchers are
investigating on new materialswith higher stability and
resistance to degradation.
(17:53):
So, for example, their work onincorporation of robust elements
or compounds that resist atomicmigration is being explored.
Additionally, people have doneencapsulation techniques is
being explored.
Additionally, people have doneencapsulation techniques and the
development of soft heatingmaterials are being studied to
mitigate the effects of cyclingon the performance.
(18:14):
The third challenge would be inthermal management.
So the phase transitions in thePCMs is typically induced by
heating, which can lead tolocalized hot spots and thermal
crosstalk between adjacentelements in very densely packed
device circuits.
So effective thermal managementis very crucial to prevent
(18:37):
unwanted switching and ensuredevice stability.
Improving the thermalconductivity within the
PCM-based devices through theuse of thermally conductive
substrates or integrated heatsinks.
Advanced designs that optimizethe distribution of the heat and
minimize the thermalinterference are also being
(18:59):
developed, and also low-powerswitching techniques such as
electrical or optical excitationare being investigated to
reduce thermal loads.
That's being introduced to thecircuits.
Number four challenge, I think,is in scalability and
integration.
So integrating PCM withexisting semiconductor
(19:20):
technologies and scaling themfor mass production pose
significant challenges.
And scaling them for massproduction pose significant
challenges, right, because wewant to make sure the
compatibility is there with thestandard fabrication process.
So efforts are focused ondeveloping fabrication
techniques that are compatiblewith CMOS processes such as
sputtering or chemical vapordeposition for the PCM layers.
(19:43):
They're also exploring hybridintegration, where PCMs are
combined with other materials ortechnologies to achieve
scalable and manufacturabledevices.
Next challenge, I think alsowould be in the speed and energy
efficiency.
So the goal is always we wantto achieve fast and energy
(20:05):
efficient switching, especiallylike when we're talking about
data storage and in photoniccircuits.
So the energy required toinduce a phase change.
So, rachel, you had thisquestion just before this yeah,
they can be limiting factors.
So, to enhance the speed andenergy efficiency, researchers
(20:26):
around the world are exploringnovel materials with lower
switching energy and fastercrystallization speed, because
between the two phase changes,the crystallization process
takes a little bit longer thanthe amortization process.
So the idea is we want to makeit a little faster.
And also the approaches like wetry to reduce the size of
(20:48):
switching regions using narrownanowires or nanoparticles and
optimize the pulse duration andintensity of the switching
stimuli are also pursued toachieve a faster and more
efficient switching.
Last one is in environmentalimpact and sustainability.
So some PCMs, particularlythose based on chalcogenides,
contain elements that are rareor potentially harmful to the
(21:11):
environment.
So when we're talking aboutconcerns about sustainability of
PCM technology, this is a bigproblem.
So to address these concerns,researchers are investigating
alternative materials that aremore abundant and
environmentally friendly.
Organic-based change materialsand bio-inspired alternatives
(21:32):
are being explored.
So you can see the whole theme,with all these challenges,
really relies on new materials.
How can we find a bettermaterial that can do the similar
things that you know can make abetter option for a fast and
reconfigurable switching.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So that's what I come up with, I see.
So looking for new materials isvery important, a crucial point
in tackling one or two or manyof these challenges.
But another thing is because Ihave this concern as well about
precise switching.
You know how to make sure thatthe switch is like instant and
(22:13):
abrupt, not like in a continuous, you know manner.
So precise switching isimportant, and also the thermal
management.
So, as I say, in the device, ifyou have heat and if you have
more than just one part of thephase change happening, but if
there's another adjacent one, sohow do you manage the whole
(22:34):
thing?
The thermal conductivity inthis case, and because it is
thermal, that means it willaffect the phase change of the
materials.
So it's very important tomanage them well, yeah, and then
, okay, scalability, and alsothe.
Does it mean to?
Do you mean it has to be CMOScompatible?
When you talk about integration?
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Yes, well, clearly you want to be CMOS compatible,
right?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
That's the whole idea that you want to be CMOS
compatible and then you want tomake sure that you can integrate
to the, to the whateverplatform you're working on.
Yeah, absolutely, you coveredit completely correctly.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I see, okay, good, yeah, and so normally, can you
give us some examples ofmaterials, of this kind of phase
change materials?
So example you mentioned justnow chalcogenide and some
organic materials as well, andcan you give some names so that
we have something in mind?
Speaker 3 (23:29):
So right, now the key thing.
I guess at current state people, most majority of the community
, are using chalcogenides.
So GSTs right, gssts right, andthen yeah.
So people try to vary thecomposition, exact composition
of the GST material to make sureit's, you know, with the good
(23:51):
thermal performance, with a goodswitching performance.
So the organic PCMs are newerelements to replace one of the
GST components to see if theycan do better, they can have
more longevity with the device,with the switching between, and
(24:13):
then can we try to make thecrystallization process a little
faster with the otheralternatives.
But right now, at this verymoment, chalk cotton lights are
the primary solutions people areusing.
But clearly it has itsdisadvantages.
So people are trying to.
Can we do better?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, I see yeah.
So obviously, facet materialsare very attractive for
reconfigurable switching becauseof their properties and
auditing the advantages thatthey're offering.
But they're also having lots ofchallenges ahead, you know, for
them to overcome and all thesethings.
So what are the futuredirection of research and
development in this field?
(24:55):
You know, like, how are they?
You know, what do you foresee?
It's going to be yeah for thefuture.
You already summarized a lot ofthem in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
So I think the future obviously you can hear from
what you just said and thesummary that I gave about the
challenges.
The common theme is developmentof new materials with improved
properties, such as lowswitching energy, faster
transition times, greaterthermal stabilities, right.
So researchers are alsoexploring hybrid materials that
(25:25):
combine PCM with otherfunctional materials to create
devices with enhancedcapabilities.
And also another promisingdirection is integrating PCMs
with emerging technologies like2D materials and nanophotonics,
which could lead toultra-compact and highly
efficient reconfigurable devices.
Lead to ultra-compact andhighly efficient reconfigurable
(25:47):
devices.
And there's also a significantinterest in exploring the
potential of PCMs in quantumcomputing, where their ability
to switch states with highprecision could be used to
control qubits.
So I think, in all we said here, advancing fabrication
techniques to enable scalableproduction of PCM-based devices
(26:09):
while maintaining highperformance will be a very, very
, very big part of their futurewidespread adoption.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
In my opinion, work is remaining at the moment, like
research in the university oryou know, for the academia,
interestingly, or it issomething that is being done as
well in the industry.
So if this is a case where,like, what role do the
collaboration between theacademia, industry and maybe
(26:39):
even government?
You know we need funding, moneyand all these things to get
further, so what role do theyplay here in advancing the
face-sense materials forreconfigurable switching?
Yes, so right now.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Obviously the researchers, like myself and
everybody, are still trying toget the best alternative
materials, so we're still in theresearch phase.
The widespreadcommercialization isn't isn't
there yet, so that's why we'retrying to get there.
So, as you, exactly as you said, collaboration between academia
, industry and government isvery, very critical in advancing
(27:17):
this field.
So, academia, like myself andother scientists, we provide the
fundamental research andtheoretical models, right to
understand and optimize theprocesses.
Then the industry drives thedevelopment of practical
applications forcommercialization.
Then, as you also mentioned,government agencies they provide
the funding initiatives andcreate policies that support
(27:41):
innovation and then alsoadoption of new materials in,
say, telecom, defense andhealthcare.
So these collaborations canlead to the establishment of
standards and best practices,making sure the PCM-based
technologies are reliable,scalable and ready for
(28:01):
commercial use.
And maybe partnership also isvery good between the three.
We can accelerate the transferof knowledge from the lab, like
research labs, to the market, soenabling a faster
commercialization or deploymentof the solutions.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
So am I right saying that these phase change
materials, reconfigurableurableswitches, are not yet
commercially available?
Not yet.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Not yet Widely comparable.
Maybe there is a small nicheareas for people to use, but
it's not completely widelyadapted in your Apple computers.
No.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Not yet.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
We see the promises, we see the potential and then we
are hopeful that this is goingto be a really excellent
research direction going there.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, no, I think it is not easy.
The route of commercializationfor any research, any new
technology, new technology, newresearch, to be brought out from
the research lab out to thestreet yeah, to the market, it's
not easy.
So I think your persistence andyour endurance, you know, in
making this whole thing happenis very, very well applauded.
(29:19):
Winnie, you have to keep up thegood work, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
I'm very hopeful that this technology will take over
eventually in my lifetime good,so okay.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
so I think most of us know a lot about this and it's
quite interesting topic for meas well, because it's very new,
and I always think face changematerials can do many things, so
I'm sure it is not only forreconfigurable switching, it can
be for any other applicationsas well.
So hopefully we'll see more outof them in the future.
(29:52):
Yes, good.
Thank you so much, winnie.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Thank you so much, Rachel.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Thank you so, Akhil, back to you.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Thank you very much.
That was absolutely fascinating.
I've written down a lot ofnotes here.
I think I'm going to stack themup and then see how much notes
I've written down a lot of noteshere.
I think I'm going to stack themup and then see how much those
notes I've actually made.
That was very interesting.
Thank you very much, rachel andWinnie.
Before I let you go, winnie,I've just got a couple more
follow-up questions before we go.
So my perspective as an earlycareer researcher somebody
(30:20):
looking at a profile such asyourself, everything that you
have done on the teaching side,on the research and innovation
aspects between mentorship I hada few questions related to what
young professionals might becurious about.
So, given the field that you'rein, I'll start with a
relatively technical question.
If you had any students lookingat building a research career
(30:45):
or an innovation career in thefield of PCMs, what do you think
is the most interesting aspectof it to look at at this stage?
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Hmm, it's a hard question to ask.
Reconfigurable switchingespecially involves PCM.
So Rachel has mentioned themany challenges that we have.
So it is a cutting edge areamaterial science, photonics and
electrical engineering.
So understanding the basics,the principles behind the phase
(31:23):
transitions, the semiconductordevices and optics, will be very
important as you focus intomore specialized topics in the
future.
And then you need to engage inthe research early on.
So you should seek outopportunities to participate in
research projects, such as inthe PCMs right, Whether through
(31:44):
your university internship orcollaborative initiatives, and
then hands-on experience in alab setting will really help you
with practical knowledge thatcomplements your theoretical
understanding and stay curiousright.
This is the key.
You have to keep yourselfupdated with the latest trends,
latest papers, attendconferences, read nature papers
(32:06):
and engage with the scientificcommunity.
And then you need to reallyexplore interdisciplinary areas
such as nanotechnology, quantumcomputing and neuromorphic
engineering, because we said,these are the future areas that
will likely use PCM.
So you want to know what youcan contribute to these.
So obviously, as you mentionedalso earlier, akhil networking,
(32:31):
mentorship so important.
You want to connect withprofessionals who are already
working in this area at thismoment and you need to want, you
want to build a network ofmentors and peers that can
provide you with valuableinsights, guidance and
opportunities.
Right, and I think maybe alsoyou want to develop your problem
solving skills, because wedon't have a solution.
(32:51):
Right, as I mentioned earlier,there are lots of unknown
challenge, unknown solutions tothe challenges we need to solve.
So have a mindset that embraceschallenges and then you should
be open to explore these newsolutions, because we don't have
answers, but we want to try tofind answers.
So that's my advice for newbiesFantastic.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
That's fantastic, and you also mentioned something
that's a very good segue intoour next question.
Clearly, you've been anincredible mentor for a lot of
students and a lot of peerswithin your community, so I was
curious about that perspectiveof yours as well.
Is that something that was veryimportant to you in your career
, or did that become importantas you went along?
(33:37):
What's your perspective on it?
Speaker 3 (33:39):
So mentorship has been incredibly important
throughout my own career, bothas a mentor and as a mentee.
So when I was starting out, Iwas really fortunate to have
mentors who guided me, offeredadvice to me and opened doors to
opportunities that I might nothave discovered on my own.
So their support really helpedme navigate the complexities of
(34:00):
academia and research, and alsotheir encouragement really
pushed me to pursue challengingprojects that ultimately shaped
my career.
So, as a mentor myself now Ifind it equally rewarding to
support the younger generation,the next generation of
scientists and engineers.
It's not just about sharing myknowledge or providing career
(34:21):
advice.
It's about helping the studentsand early career professionals
to find their own paths,building confidence and develop
their resilience needed tosucceed in this very demanding
field.
So mentorship creates a rippleeffect.
What you invest in your menteescan have a lasting impact to
yourself because as they will inturn go on to mentor other
(34:45):
people Absolutely, I thinkthat's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Can you share a bit more about that journey itself?
Have you got an anecdote or astory or anything like that from
your experiences?
Speaker 3 (35:00):
a story or anything like that from your experiences?
Yeah, I think so.
So mentorship really bridgesthe gap between knowledge and
experience to provide asupportive environment where one
can learn, grow and makeinformed decisions.
So for me, this has been a verycontinuous journey, so starting
as a mentee right, where I hadto learn all the importance of
asking questions, seekingfeedback and taking risks under
(35:21):
the guidance of my supervisors,right or my colleagues who have
more experience than me.
So one of the most valuablelessons I learned from my
mentors is the importance ofresilience.
So, because research, especiallyin the innovative fields like
this reconfigurable switching,often involves failures and
(35:41):
setbacks, right, and my mentorstaught me that these challenges
are not roadblocks but ratheropportunities to learn and
improve.
They also emphasize the valueof collaboration, encouraging me
to work with others, shareideas and build on collective
knowledge.
So, from the perspective ofbeing a mentor myself, I've
learned that mentorship is not aone-size-fits-all approach, so
(36:04):
each mentee is very unique, withdifferent goals, different
challenges and differentlearning styles.
So effective mentorshipinvolves active listening,
understanding the individual'sneeds and providing personalized
guidance.
Also, it involves encouragingindependence.
So mentorship is aboutempowering others to think
(36:26):
critically and making their owndecisions, making their own
discoveries rather thanproviding them with the answers.
So yeah, you have to understand.
A lot of times we don't haveanswers.
I don't know the solution to allthese things, but I'm happy to
try.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
So it's a two-way street right.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
As a mentee, you gain wisdom and guidance.
As a mentor, you gain newperspectives from your students
or from your collaborators, andthen you help each other to
succeed.
It's a mutually enrichingexperience.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
And I think that's a very interesting perspective and
a very interesting experienceas well.
I personally, for example, I'vehad an incredible mentor during
my PhD.
I've had an incredible mentorduring my postdoc.
Yet at my career stage, juststarting out in academia, I'm
also looking to mentor studentsof mine who are going to come
(37:15):
through the academic line, butalso I'm still searching for
mentors because I've always gotsomething to learn going forward
as well.
So wherever you are within yourcareer and within the progress
that you're having, you alwaysend up either being a mentee or
a mentor to somebody or theother.
It's a two-way street foreveryone, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
That makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
That's brilliant.
So I'm going to shift gears nowand I'm going to ask you about
some of the experiences you'vehad while you were building your
career.
Now my involvement with thePhotonic Society.
I've worked previously withSPIE and Optica as well.
Volunteering has been a prettysignificant part of my career.
So when did you start doingsuch activities and do you have
(37:59):
any idea of how that's impactedyour career?
Speaker 3 (38:03):
So I began volunteering early in my career
academic career as a graduatestudent.
So I recognized thatcontributing to professional
organizations like yourself IEEE, optica, spie was was not only
an opportunity to give back tothe community but also a perfect
way to grow personally andprofessionally.
(38:24):
So I think volunteering for meallowed me to network with peers
and leaders in the field,broadening my understanding of
the challenges and opportunitieswith my community in photonics,
and to develop leadershipskills that I might not have
required solely through myresearch and teaching.
(38:44):
So the impact on my career hasbeen super significant.
So they helped me build a verystrong professional network
which opened up collaborationopportunities and provided
visibility for my work.
It also deepened my sense ofresponsibility towards mentoring
and supporting others.
So the leadership roles I'vetaken on through volunteering
(39:06):
have helped me to manage teamsmake strategic decisions and
advocate for causes that I'mpassionate about, such as women
in engineering, so all of whichhas been invaluable as my career
progressed.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
And it's a very interesting way of also
illustrating your leadershiptraits, your willingness to work
with people.
I think, as you go through aPhD and a postdoc and you're in
the early stages of your careerand this is independent of if
you've done a PhD and you'regoing into industry, academia,
if you're an early career youngprofessional going into industry
(39:42):
or into research there aredifferent ways of illustrating
your personality traits and Ithink volunteering gives you a
platform to illustrate thosesort of things.
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Agreed completely.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Absolutely Fantastic.
I've got a couple morequestions, me too.
Me too, I agree completely.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Volunteering is completely, absolutely fantastic
.
I've got a couple morequestions me too, me too is very
important.
Yeah, it exposes you to many,many new skills that you never
know.
You know you mean somethingthat you will not get inside the
classroom.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
See, absolutely, and I think this is this is good for
the listeners to know.
This is happening completelyorganically.
It has not been rehearsed, butmy next sentence was going to be
I have four questions left andI'd like to pull Rachel back
into the conversation.
So, just like that, I've gotfour questions remaining and I
(40:33):
think the idea is to see if Ican pull a bit of information
from your career, a bit of aknowledge bite, a bit of advice
from both of your perspectives.
You come at this from differentperspectives, so I think your
responses would be quiteinteresting as well.
The way I'll do this, in theinterest of the discussion as
well, is I'll ask my questionand we'll interchange between
(40:56):
which one of you goes first.
So, in the first instance,winnie, you can go first.
The next question, rachel, cango first.
What's the most importantleadership lesson you've learned
and how has it been invaluablein your career?
So, winnie, first.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Okay, rachel, I'll take this one first.
So the most importantleadership lesson I've learned
is the power of empathy andactive listening.
As a leader, it's easy to getcaught up with decision making
and driving projects forward byyourself, but it's crucial to
take the time to understandother perspectives, challenges
and aspirations from your teammembers.
So that's mine.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Fantastic Rachel.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Really, you have said everything.
I wanted to say no, no.
I think listening is veryimportant.
To be a leader, you need to beable to listen and then to
understand any issue and allthese things from other people
before you make a decision onhow to proceed, how to solve the
problems.
I think listening is veryimportant and I think another
(41:56):
one is you know, dare to take arisk as well, I think, as a
leader, because it is your callsometimes to make a decision,
like, for example, in what I'mdoing as an editor in publishing
.
You know we need to makedecision, whether you know to go
ahead with a publication ormaybe to make a decision to
cancel a project and all thesethings.
So we need to be able to takethe risk.
(42:19):
But when I say risk, I'm notsaying any risk.
It's an informed with aninformed decision.
Make an informed decision, yes,yeah, and then just go with it
and then be brave with what youhave made and achieved.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
I think the interesting thing about most
work environments is theoccasional risk that you take is
actually building experience.
It's building knowledge, sothat it's never completely wrong
.
It's always good to take thatodd risk every once in a while.
So my second question if youcould give one piece of advice
for somebody in the early stagesof their career.
(42:57):
Now think about somebody who'sjust graduated an undergraduate,
a master's or a phd course.
They haven't decided if theywant to go into industry, into
public policy, into engagement,into research and innovation,
academia.
What would your advice be tothat person at that stage?
Speaker 2 (43:17):
okay, I think to me.
I think it is very importantthat, uh, as a young, uh master
degree holder or a young phddegree holder, you need to think
a little bit outside the box.
You know, about what you wantto do.
I always say to people that adegree is just like a passport.
It's a passport for you to getto a place and then you try to
(43:38):
make use of that passport to dowhat you always want to do, what
you always love to do, and then, uh, then that is nice life,
you know.
So, think out of the box, yeah,when you're thinking about
which career to pursue,importantly is to follow your
passion.
Follow your passion and use thedegree as a passport to achieve
what you want and don't berestricted by, for example,
(44:02):
maybe a piece of advice from asupervisor.
Be a researcher, stick to onething, no, just be open.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Fantastic Winnie.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
To Atta.
It was excellent advice.
So I think first you need toreally do a really honest
evaluation of yourself.
What are you interested in toreally choose your career path
first?
So are you more interested inresearch, and then you know,
thinking about the future andthen directing students to help
(44:32):
you?
Or are you really you love thedynamics in working industry,
the excitement in delivering acommercial product?
Right?
So you decide what really makeyou passionate about exactly
what Rachel said.
And then, once you choose yourpath, you have to understand in
any career path you choose,there are going to be challenges
(44:52):
for you and you need to reallynot be afraid of the challenges.
You don't want to, you know,hide from the challenges.
You want to lean into them withcuriosity and resilience and
try to solve the problem.
Each challenge you face is achance to learn, to improve and
to build your confidence.
So don't be afraid to ask forhelp or advice from mentors and
(45:13):
colleagues and also just reallyuse the help you can get to
navigate through your careerpath.
Yeah, and then you have toremember your career is a
journey, not a race, right?
so you take your time to explorewhat you want, learn new skills
and figure out what trulyexcites you absolutely.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
I think the the passport idea and the and
exploring new avenues isextremely interesting, because
one of the key pieces of advicethat I actually got in my career
when I was doing my PhD my PhDsupervisor would constantly say
don't look at this as thehighest academic degree you can
get.
Think about this as trainingfor the rest of your research
(45:55):
career.
And that perspective was really, really helpful for setting the
pace.
So another question that I getasked quite often and obviously
I'm sure you get this questionmuch more than I do, given where
you are at your career stagesas well Would you recommend
somebody to diversify theirresearch skills, their expertise
, sort of understand asubstantial amount about a lot
(46:18):
of things, or would you say thatsomebody should become an
absolute expert at a very, verynarrow topic?
Which perspective do you hold?
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Yeah, sure, From my perspective, both approaches
have their merits and the bestpath often, in my opinion,
depends on their career goalsand the field they're in.
However, I really believe thatearly in your career, it's
beneficial to diversify yourresearch experience with skill
sets.
So you want to engage yourselfwith different topics, different
methodologies, differentdisciplines can really provide
(46:49):
you with a broader perspectiveand a more versatile skill set
right, which is valuable intoday's interdisciplinary
research environment, which isvaluable in today's
interdisciplinary researchenvironment.
But when you are in thisdiversified area, you can
explore various different partsand maybe you'll discover new
(47:11):
interests or identify new orunique intersections between
fields that can lead toinnovative research directions,
between fields that can lead toinnovative research directions.
Additionally, a diverse skillset can make you more adaptable
and resilient in the face ofchanges of the job market or the
research funding trends rightnow.
But once you gain a solidfoundation and then identified a
(47:32):
particular area of interestthat you want to pursue your
career with, then you can choosea specialized area and develop
a deeper expertise in that niche.
So this combination of broadexperience and focused expertise
can really position you as awell-rounded, flexible and
innovative scientist.
So that's my perspective.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
I think that's very interesting, because the
diversity of skill sets and thediversity of knowledge has a
very, very big value.
This is something that I relateto quite a bit from my
perspective, because from myundergraduate, master's degree,
phd and my postdoc, I've donedifferent topics at each of
these stages.
So when I actually now approacha problem statement or I write
(48:11):
a grant application or I write apaper, the background really
helps because I know quite a bitabout quite a lot of things.
So it's nice to piece the wholepuzzle together in order to
actually make it work.
So my final question for todaywhat would you say are the key
attributes or qualities of youngscientists these days?
The ones that you find in yourexperience are, quote-unquote
(48:34):
successful.
What are the qualities thatthey seem to sort of project,
and what are the things that youthink more young scientists
should get themselves trained in?
Speaker 2 (48:46):
I think to me, young scientists, early career
researchers, should be braveyeah, brave in terms of taking a
new research direction, notlistening to supervisors all the
time yeah, and also be brave inapproaching to.
You know, like leaders in theresearch, in any research field
(49:10):
you know.
Brave in approaching them, totalk to them, to introduce them
to you I mean about yourself, tointroduce yourself to them and
then to tell them about yourresearch, to make yourself known
to the leaders in the field.
I think it's very important,because impression is very
important here.
I'm not talking about askingfor collaboration or something.
(49:30):
It's basically to make themknow about you and your research
.
So be brave.
I think this will make yousuccessful for whatever that you
are doing, not even just foryour career, but as a person.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Absolutely, and Winnie.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Yeah, I think, having a passion right, remain curious
, you want to continuously learnand seek to ask questions, to
explore new ideas and then toreally have that motivation in
you, have that fire in you thatyou want to continue to do that.
And, as Rachel was saying, thatresearch is hard, right, we
don't have solutions.
That's why it's called research.
(50:07):
So, when it is very hard, whenit's very challenging, when
everything is unpredictable,just stay there and then just
being strong, being like strongto yourself and be true to
yourself, being resilient to thesetbacks, to the failure, right
.
And then you just try to reallylook for the long-term success
(50:28):
and look for mentors, right.
So getting help from others,communicate with your peers,
getting new ideas.
Speaker 1 (50:37):
I think it's very interesting, from this side of
the table, sort of listening toyour feedback.
I think it's very interestingfor people to note that none of
the things that we've talkedabout in terms of personality
development have anything to dowith the science.
It's not about scholarlyability.
It's more about put yourselfout there, be brave, ask
(50:59):
questions, engage with people.
It's very interesting that intoday's knowledge-driven world,
I think we're in a scenariowhere personalities get an
opportunity to shine because somany people are doing such
incredible work.
It's just put yourself outthere and make yourself known.
I think that's a very, veryinteresting takeaway.
So thank you very much, rachel.
(51:21):
Thank you very much, winnie.
This has been an absolutelyfascinating conversation.
We've talked about PCMs, we'vegone into technical details,
we've talked about innovations,challenges.
We've talked about empathy andleadership as well.
We've talked about careerdevelopment.
We've talked about professionaldevelopment.
We've covered so many things intoday's conversation and I
(51:41):
think this has been anincredible discussion.
I'm sure everyone at the otherend has enjoyed this as much as
I have, and in the future Ithink we'll definitely try and
do this again at some point.
But best of luck,congratulations for all of your
success, win.
Winnie, it's very nice to seeyou again, rachel, and I'm sure
we'll meet again at a conferencein the future, so thank you
(52:03):
very much.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
Thank you everyone thank you very much.
Thank you Rachel, thank youAkhil, thank you Kristen.
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