January 22, 2025 • 54 mins
What if the internal battles we fight daily are as insidious as external judgments? Join me, Joey, as I share my own unvarnished journey of coming out and the complex emotions that accompanied it on "I'm Not Gay, You Are." With Krisztina, the Chill Therapist, guiding our conversation, we address the fragmented path to self-acceptance, the spectrum of internalized homophobia, and the role humour plays as Joey's defense mechanism against fear and self-loathing. By giving a persona to his shame—"Helga"—we explore how labeling impacts identity and expression.
Our conversation takes a deeper look into how shame influences public expressions of affection and the barriers this creates for many in the LGBTQ+ community. We explore the fear of both internalized self-criticism and external bias, leading to self-imposed limitations on genuine connection. Christina and I touch upon experiences from my past, including a painful incident where I was publicly humiliated with a homophobic slur, and how this moment fostered a long-lasting struggle with my self-esteem. These stories underline the ongoing battle with societal norms and the courage it takes to live authentically despite these pressures.
We wrap up with a reflection on the therapeutic journey of understanding and embracing one's true identity beyond past traumas and societal expectations. Through candid storytelling, our conversation aims to be both reflective and healing, encouraging listeners to embark on their own paths of self-discovery. With humour, introspection, and support, the episode seeks to foster inclusivity and hope, inviting listeners to recognize and accept all parts of themselves as they navigate the complexities of identity.
If you're aligned with The Chill Therapist's vibe, and think her approach could work for you, see her IG link below:
https://www.instagram.com/thechilltherapist/
Follow the show on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/imnotgayyouarepodcast/
Stay tuned bi weekly (Wednesday) for a new episode from I'm not gay, you are
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joey (00:13):
welcome back to another episode of I'm not gay.
You are with your host, joey,that is me.
Today's episode is a littledifferent to what we would
typically do, because I'm goingto be sitting in the hot seat.
I'm actually the one going tobe interviewed, and the one
leading the conversation todayis our very own the Chill
(00:34):
Therapist.
That's me.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (00:37):
I'm Christina, aka the Chill
Therapist.
I'm a clinical counselor herein Vancouver and I guess I have
the power today to put your hoston the hot seat, which I love.
I love that.
Joey (00:52):
The chill therapist, aka Christina, is going to be
leading the conversation and Imyself am going to be in the hot
seat and talking about a lot ofwhich you've probably already
heard throughout the podcastpeople's journeys and
experiences, sexuality comingout, and you know the identity
(01:12):
piece we're here today to gether professional opinion, I
guess, on my experiences.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (01:19):
The other piece that might make
today a bit different is thatwe're actually going to sit a
little bit more with the whyaround some of these pieces and
the how, so I guess the impact.
So I know you've done a lot ofchatting about coming out and
internalized homophobia and alot of these really big themes
when it comes to our sexualityin the past on the podcast, and
(01:43):
we're gonna kind of sit with thewhy of those things and how it
impacts you.
He's losing his therapy v cardtonight, yep, by sitting with me
and talking about this.
So that is a rare, a rarity.
Joey (01:57):
This is like this is the second time I'm losing my
virginity we are popping yourcherry my therapy cherry therapy
cherry, therapy, cherry, yeahyeah, it's an honor.
Oh, there she goes.
Is that what it does?
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (02:09):
I don't know nonetheless, we're
popping yours tonight okay yourequested to be more submissive
in this episode I requested tobe popped that's me putting on
my dominant pants.
I'm curious, uh, how much ofyour coming out story you've
shared with your listeners sofar.
Joey (02:27):
Throw me under a bus.
Call me Regina George.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (02:31):
This internalized homophobia in the
room with us.
Joey (02:34):
Literally, she's here, she's here.
Yeah, I find that my journeywas very broken in a sense of
like coming out, very broken ina sense of like um coming out.
It wasn't like I told everyoneon on one day, and it was across
like two or three years, that Iwas like actively sleeping with
men and like comfortable withyou know that decision and like
(02:59):
me doing that and then also, uh,like my parents didn't know,
but like right close friendsknew and that was really it.
And if people addressed me gay,like in, like a work setting
they didn't really know, I wouldjust go along with it because
they did it for you, yeah, andthey also didn't know like
straight joe or joe that likestruggled to come out, so like,
(03:19):
like you said, they already didit for me.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (03:20):
So it was like I didn't have to
like take that burden or likecome out and be a certain person
which makes sense, right,because the journey of coming
out is not like, it's not like ahallmark event, like it looks
in hollywood right, where peopleare just like holy shit, I'm
gay and today's the day I telleverybody I know and also like.
Joey (03:42):
I feel like to that point, though, too, like also how we
make it out to be like to thisday now, even to this day, I
always say, like you know, cakeand rainbows and smiles.
Like you know, did you get allthat like?
At the time when I was comingout, that was the last thing on
my mind.
I didn't want to draw attentionto it.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (03:57):
So there's the coming out to
yourself right, which is likethe journey in which you are
accepting your sexuality, and itsucks that we have to accept it
right, but we'll get into thatin a second with compulsory
heteronormativity.
But the first stage of comingout for you is coming out to
(04:20):
yourself right, like stumblingupon who you are.
What was that like for youbefore you told anyone else?
Joey (04:32):
um, I obviously like frightening and scary because
the realization of like thetherapy virgin is already
sweating yeah, literally I'mlike, my hands are so moist.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (04:43):
I'll go easy on you do you remember
the process of coming out toyourself, so stumbling upon,
accepting, embracing, like thisis who I am no, and that's
probably not the answer thatyou're looking for, but no, I
don't remember being okay withbeing gay.
Joey (05:05):
What I remember is this is going to sound so sad hating
myself for being gay.
And also I remember I've sharedthis in an episode before but I
remember like using onlinedating platforms with like a
blank profile.
Like using online datingplatforms with like a blank
(05:27):
profile just to talk to men,like virtually as like a step
because I was.
I.
I couldn't even like have aconversation with another gay
man that was comfortable withtheir sexuality because I
thought, by association, peoplewould look at me and think I was
gay.
The Chill Therapist (Kri (05:40):
That's how so the internalized
homophobia is in the room withus and so for you when you say
you know when I ask you aboutlike embracing your sexuality
and you track that.
That started with hatingyourself.
Do you feel like you're at aplace now where you embrace it,
(06:01):
or are you still learning how todo that?
Joey (06:04):
I think I'm like comfortable.
Well, no, I know I'mcomfortable with who I am and
where I'm at in life, but Idon't doubt that there is a lot
of humor that surrounds certainsituations that I create, in a
sense that I'm avoiding truthsor again, maybe taken back to
like more of like a heavierfeeling in me and instead I
(06:29):
tried to make it morelight-hearted.
So I like address it with humor.
Does that answer your?
The Chill Therapist (K (06:33):
question yeah, so there's like as much
as you are learning to love whoyou are and you feel authentic
and loving who you are, youtrack there those moments where
you're masking a difficultfeeling, whether that's like
shame or like confusion or likeyou're doing something wrong,
(06:55):
you still feel that bubble up.
Joey (06:57):
Totally Like, especially like in certain like social,
like events or like settings.
I feel like an example would beI'm not a huge fan of pda like
holding hands with my partner inlike the street and stuff again
because I don't like to drawattention and I feel like that
(07:20):
makes me uncomfortable how doyou feel when you witness hetero
pda?
also disgusted so for you, likearound the board, it's a no-go
yeah, but I think the differenceis I'm envious of the people
that are in a heterorelationship, that just hold
(07:41):
hands and don't feel likethey're being judged, and that's
what I'm envious of is like andlike I don't know, like maybe
I'm not being judged and likethis is definitely like an
internalized problem which I'mvery much aware of, but I'm sure
there's other people out therethat have the same kind of like
experience so it doesn't feellike when we're envious of
(08:06):
something, it's because we don'tfeel like we can have it right.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (08:09):
So somebody has something we don't
, and so in this, that straightcouple that's holding hands has
something that you don't haveaccess to.
What is that like?
What do they have there thatyou feel like you don't?
I guess like social acceptanceyeah, and like permission right
(08:30):
to just they don't even thinkabout the fact that they they're
doing that.
Joey (08:34):
I think that's what bothers me, I think, because
dissecting it with the naked eyeit's like not a big deal, but
then like taking it home andlike realizing and thinking like
the heterosexual couple that ismale and female walking down
the street holding hands feelscomfortable to do so and they
would never think otherwise,versus the two men that want to
(08:57):
hold hands going down the street, that have battled to be where
they want, where they are todayinternally, or you know, not
internally and like also likephysically maybe, um yeah, yeah,
and it's.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (09:14):
It brings us to the point of like
internal versus externalbarriers to embracing queerness
and like sexuality.
Right, because embracingqueerness and like sexuality
right because fortunately Icould speak for Joey and I, like
, living in Vancouver, there'snot a lot of external barriers
that would make it unsafe for usto be practicing queers in the
(09:36):
city.
Right like it's yeah, you'rethe minority.
If you're not queer in Vancouver, don't quote me on that.
I don't have a site.
And so we are privileged enoughthat we don't have to worry
about external barriers such aslike being unsafe right, that's
a privilege, I recognize that wedon't have to worry about that.
(09:57):
But in what you're describing,there's no one saying you can't
hold your boyfriend's hand whenyou're walking down the street,
and there's no one.
It's unlikely that anythingnegative would happen if you
were to do that.
And still there's a barrier,right.
So that's an internalexperience that you're up
(10:20):
against that's preventing youfrom being able to enjoy, like a
very basic relationalexperience in public.
And so if, if we label thatinternal thing I know we're
saying internalized homophobia,but like, what's the emotion of
that?
What?
(10:40):
What emotion do you feel?
Or what emotion do you imagineyou'd feel if you were to hold
your boyfriend's hand in public?
Joey (10:52):
insert crickets yeah, tumbleweed um.
I don't think it gives menecessarily like a power or like
an emotion in our relationshipor like for me.
I don't think you're likeyou're wrong?
Yeah, does it.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (11:09):
I don't know like well, there's
like it starts with a s and endswith a h-a-m-e h-a-m-e.
Joey (11:20):
Oh, shame bingo, I'm like there it is.
The Chill Therapist (Kri (11:25):
You're so pretty I it's my sehame
shahami, shame, shame yeah, thattriggers me the.
There's no external barrierthat prevents joey from holding
his boyfriend's hand.
In the city that we live in,most of the barriers are
internal.
We've labeled that asinternalized homophobia.
Joey (11:46):
So joey hate crimes himself essentially what's if I
was to walk down the street anda person was to yell faggot at
me?
The Chill Therapist (Kri (11:55):
that's externalized homophobia, so
that's, that's just, but that isa phobia but that is a piece to
what we're talking about.
Joey (12:03):
So you're saying there's no barriers where we live, but
I'm scared that that's going tohappen.
I don't want the attention.
I don't want people to likesingle me out and be like I'm
different, so therefore Ideserve that hate crime language
.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (12:18):
So you have fear around actual
homophobia, being like a victimof actual homophobia, and you
have internalized homophobia,which makes you the ultimate
homophobe which makes you thewinner of homophobia.
that's what creates thediscomfort, right?
(12:40):
So the the fear and'm going tovalidate that the fear is real,
right.
The fear of being criticized orhated for who you are Right,
like, we're not going to negatethat.
There is a piece of that.
That's just point blankhomophobia.
And then we have this addedpiece where, even if you were in
(13:01):
an environment where you were,it was not likely that you
weren't to be accepted.
So you know, like on mainstreet, at like an lgbtq
friendly bar or something inthat event, if you still are
feeling like you don't haveaccess to doing the thing the
(13:22):
straight couple's doing right infront of you holding your
partner's hand, there's a biggerinternal piece there.
Right that that you're upagainst yeah, that makes sense
which brings us to the shame.
Joey (13:35):
Yeah, I want to know what that bigger piece is well is it
starts with s and ends in humami.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (13:42):
Yeah , it's the shame piece.
And so, if we pause there,what's your relationship to your
shame?
Like, do you feel like you knowit well?
Do you feel like you're scaredof it?
Like, how do you relate to theshame that you carry as it
relates to your sexuality?
Joey (14:03):
I don't fully understand.
I understand the question, butI don't fully understand.
I understand the question, butI don't know how to identify the
relationship between myself andshame so if your shame had a
mic and we were like joey'sshame, like is that right here?
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (14:20):
yeah , if shame was in the room with
us and we miked her up, I'mgoing to give her a gender.
I guess your shame is she her,if we mic'd up your shame.
Joey (14:29):
Let's call shame Helga.
Oh, that's let's make If she'sinside me and she's living there
and she's a big piece of who Iam.
Helga is her name.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (14:40):
Okay , helga, who is inside?
Joey, shame, don't get excited.
So if shame had a mic and wewere to say, like, give us your
elevator pitch for why you exist, like what would your shame say
as it relates to your sexuality?
Joey (15:00):
I think all I can think of at the top of my head is more
so like situational that'shappened in the past is that
like people have always tried toout me before I was ever ready
and the terminology to be gay.
And like you know, when peopletell you that you're gay,
(15:21):
typically they don't tell you ina polite way, they tell you in
like more of a shameful, hatefulway and it's used against you
and not t like used for you as awin.
It's not like oh my god, honey,you're.
So you like you're queer andyou're gay and like I love who
you are.
It's never said like that.
It's like you're a fag oryou're gay or that's gay.
(15:42):
I'm going to share like a storylike really quickly because
it's it's not off topic.
But prior to me moving to Canada, I worked for a really large
fast food chain.
I was coming on to my shift andI was just starting and I
looked at the schedule and therewas a manager on duty that I
didn't really like.
I didn't think that was like anice person, but still like he
(16:04):
was my manager.
I wasn't gonna say anythingabout it and he walked over to
me and my back was against thewall and he came up to me on in
the, on the front counter, infront of all of like this was
like a very public setting, infront of like guests and
everything, and he made a jokeor something about me being gay
and I said, like in response no,I'm not, I'm not gay, like you
know.
Like um, defensive, 100%, likeyou know, I'm not gay and all
(16:29):
this stuff.
And the he picked me up by themy collar of my shirt, put me
against the wall and said you'rethe biggest faggot that I know
and that lives with me rent-freeevery single.
And I remember leaving and thatwas the first time I've ever
cried in public and I ran offthe shift, literally.
(16:54):
And I remember running offshift and there were like two
people that chased me but nevermade me feel that that was not
okay instantly.
They were like oh my god, areyou okay?
Like first of all, why the fuckwould you say that?
No, I just ran off crying andlike grabbed my bag and then
left to the front door throughlike a busy rush on a Saturday
(17:15):
morning.
That stuck with me for life andI feel like that shame piece is
like again, like this is whereit comes in is like when people
say oh like you're queer andyou're so fucking fun, or you're
, you're gay and like it likenowadays, maybe so like, maybe I
don't know.
Like I don't want to talk for,like our generation.
That's also not what I'm hereto do, but the shame piece
definitely comes from like whenpeople told me I was gay and
(17:37):
like it was never in like apositive way.
And again, I was always verydefiant and it took me moving to
a different country to feelcomfortable with who I am,
because I didn't have to facepeople I didn't know or people I
used to be straight around.
I guess.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (17:54):
Yeah .
Joey (17:55):
It was a long winded answer.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (17:58):
No , it makes sense though, right,
and it's interesting how ourbrains work that way.
Right, like I asked you aboutan emotion that's very clearly
directed to the internalizedhomophobia piece, which is very
clearly directed to the internalbarrier for you to embrace your
sexuality and have, like, basicrights in your relationship in
(18:22):
public, right, like hold yourpartner's hand.
So we're kind of like chippingdown to the core of what makes
that difficult.
And it's interesting when ourbrains think of a moment, right,
because that moment meantsomething to you in terms of why
you carry shame around thisright, and whether you can
(18:43):
articulate what that is or not,whether you move to a different
continent or not, that's stillwith you, right.
So you live in a veryprogressive city where there's
permission to be queer andthere's safe spaces and it's
celebrated acceptance, and thispart lives inside of you,
(19:05):
regardless of which continentyou're in right, which prevents
you from being able to dosomething.
That's a very basic privilegefor the straights.
So, as we're holding the shamepiece, it's obviously big, it's
obviously heavy and deeplyrooted right, like, as we're
(19:27):
learning, it stems way back.
And so I'm curious for you like, obviously, because that
feeling is so heavy anddifficult to hold, it's easier
to avoid it, and so, in order toavoid it, we try to lean into
what's normative or normal,which is heteronormativity,
(19:48):
right, being hetero is thedefault in society.
And so I'm curious for you didyou pretend to be straight, like
did you?
Was there a period of your lifewhere you tried to make that
work to avoid dealing with thispart of yourself?
Joey (20:06):
yeah, I feel that most of my, like you know, young
adulthood life, when I was goingout like I was very clearly
showing attributes of a queergay man very like high pitched
voice, like hung around with allthe girls, like wasn't really
interested in, like sports, andI guess there are stereotypes
(20:30):
and I do recognize that.
But unfortunately they werecategorizing me and put me into
a box without me fully beingaware of what that box was at
the time.
Um, but I think because of thiseternal internalized homophobia
and like this shame piece likethat I just grown up with, I was
naturally like placing myselfinto these stereotypes and did
the straight thing work for you,because I think that's where
(20:52):
sometimes people get confused,is that?
I had a girlfriend for a yearand a half.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (20:56):
And were you?
Were there parts of you thataligned with that?
Obviously, there were someparts that didn't but like
Believe it or not not, thoseparts.
Joey (21:07):
That's where this is very different and difficult for me
is because I didn't have anexperience with ex-partners
where I didn't enjoy like sexualactivity with them, right, like
that was, it's all I knew too,like I had not had sex with men
at this point or not, like youknow, indulged into same-sex,
(21:27):
you know coupling, um.
So it's all I knew andobviously it felt good and this
partner of mine was good to meand like loving it just.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (21:39):
And it allowed you to not face.
Joey (21:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (21:45):
If , if you can align enough with
heterosexuality, it allows youto not have to face those parts
of self Right.
Joey (21:56):
Mm, hmm.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (21:58):
And so what you're describing?
It has a term.
I'm gonna throw it out there.
It's a tongue twistercompulsory heteronormativity.
But we can shorten it to comphet.
Right, and it's.
It's basically the idea thatbeing straight is the default
that brings us into comp het,which is basically the idea that
being straight is the defaultthat brings us into compet,
(22:18):
which is basically the idea thatbeing straight is the default
Right.
So Disney movies, rom-coms,people asking what your mom and
dad do like all of that is builtaround systems that make
straightness the default Right.
And so if you're in a system ora society that has
(22:39):
heteronormativity at its center,at its core, and pieces of
heterosexuality work for you,you're going to try to fit into
that mold, right?
So if heterosexuality is normalin the society you live in,
which it very much still is, andpieces of that work for you,
(23:01):
the safer option is for you tofollow that system when you
actually subscribe to the system.
That allows you to stay safeand allows you to not face that
(23:22):
part of yourself, and it's thedefault system that everyone
else is fitting into.
Joey (23:25):
That makes sense.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (23:26):
You look like you're processing
here.
This is where my therapy hat ison.
I'm like he's lost.
You have like eight tabs openin your brain right now.
Joey (23:34):
There's probably more than eight.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (23:37):
Like what comes up.
I see the rainbow wheel.
At this point I'm like whatcomes up for you with the compet
piece.
So heterosexuality is thedefault.
Heterosexuality is like themold that exists in society and
(23:57):
you, having your experience,where you try to make that work
for yourself, right it?
Joey (24:03):
it sounds like it created confusion for you I'm not sure
whether it was confusion or justmore so like comfortability.
Comfortability is that theright word?
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (24:13):
yeah , so you got to avoid facing the
uncomfortable by subscribing tothe hetero norm.
All of that to validate, likethere's your own internal
emotions around why holding hishand is hard and not accessible
and there's this wider systemicthing happening outside of you
as well, right, which is thatthe system around you is not
(24:35):
built for you to hold his hand,and that's kind of like what
you're against on a daily basis,I guess.
Joey (24:42):
so like, even though I know that like this is the thing
, it's like hard, because I feellike we're talking like past
self and like present self, buteven though I know that like
where I live is very progressiveand very accepting and there's
this huge like comfortabilitypiece, I still like I don't know
(25:03):
, I'm still like worried yeah,and like that's where I think
about the younger you that gotheld up against a wall.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (25:12):
Like that you just shared with us.
Right, where it's like we can'tyou can't unlearn that
experience, right, so I likethat you just shared with us.
Right, where it's like we can'tyou can't unlearn that
experience, right, so I likethat you use language of parts,
because we do that a lot intherapy.
Right, that there's it's notjust all of Joey doesn't want to
hold his boyfriend's hand, orit's not just all of Joey that
really wants to.
Right, like there's a part ofyou that wants to probably feel
(25:36):
empowered to be able to do thatand have, like the basic right
to be able to express care toyour partner in public.
There's a part of you thatwants that and there's a part of
you that fears that and rejectsthat because of what happened
(25:56):
to you in the past.
Right, so, you're.
Right we're holding so manyparts of you that are all
happening within one person atone time that you have to hold
in that moment where you're likeI feel like I want to hold his
hand, but nothing within me isallowing me to do that you
obviously can.
You have a podcast aboutsexuality and coming out and
(26:18):
homophobia and internalizedhomophobia, and when you're in
the position where, like yourbrain knows it's okay for us to
talk about these things, you'reyou're having like a visceral,
physical, somatic experience,right.
That doesn't line up.
So your brain's like we're onthe podcast, we're supposed to
talk about this, and your body'slike this is really scary, like
(26:41):
I feel the shame and I feel thefear and it's.
I think it's just important forus to acknowledge that and
that's why I'm not trying tocall you out, but just for your
viewers that it's like this islike a gay man who has a podcast
and is comfortable in hisrelationship and still, when we
try to dig down into the layers,like those emotions come up
(27:01):
right, like you're holding yourbreath and you're covering your
face and the shame and the fear.
Joey (27:09):
My hands are clammy.
I'm like fidgeting, but I'vetriggered him folks.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (27:13):
I'm not sleeping well tonight.
Great success.
Joey (27:19):
No, I think it's very valid, valid like all this is
very valid and, like you know,like I'm very much aware, I
think of like what I'm goingthrough and like who I am and
I'm not ashamed of who I amtoday.
I think there's just moregrowing to do and more
understanding of like what I'vebeen through, to be who I want
(27:44):
to be and like I do want to feelempowered and hold my hand,
hold my boyfriend's hand in thestreet.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (27:49):
I just want to hold my own hand.
I can buy myself flowers.
Okay, miley Cyrus, pop off.
Joey (27:54):
If you were to meet me in the street, you would meet
someone completely different andI and I don't mean that in like
a I'm a false person I findthat as like a mask, like you
said, like it doesn't mean, likeI'm not who I am, like this is
like, obviously, an extension ofwho I am.
And like you know, I feel likeI'm gonna use an example but,
(28:18):
being a spin instructor, you're,you show up as this, you know,
motivator, and this person that,like can fill a room and you
have a big personality and youknow, like you're always showing
up for other people and like Idon't know, yeah, I feel like
that also plays a part in likewho I am today, but also in the
(28:39):
sense I'm saying I have aquestion here.
Does that make sense what I wassaying?
It does, but it like am I justlike beating around the bush
with it?
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (28:47):
No , no, it's making sense and I
think it's your mind is callingyou to something in what you're
saying, right?
So you're you're saying if youmeet me on the street in a
setting where nobody hasexpectation of joey and who joey
is you're gonna find someonedifferent than if we flew you
(29:07):
back to said continent where yougrew up, right?
So I think what makes mecurious about hearing that is
what gives you more permissionto be you in a setting where
there's no expectation of you.
Joey (29:25):
Can you please repeat the question?
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (29:26):
Can I call a friend?
So if we met you on this you'resaying, like if somebody random
met you, right, you're going tobe a different you.
Right, you're gonna, you'regonna be a different you.
And it's not because you'reinauthentic, but it's because
you do still at times mask partsof self.
And so I'm curious, I think,what gives you more permission
(29:50):
to be that version of you in asetting where no one knows you?
So there's like no expectation.
What makes that feel safer foryou to embrace and like align
with that version of joey?
Joey (30:04):
I think truly it comes down to generational people and
also if they're queer or notlike, truly like when I host
this podcast and when I talk toqueer people about you know
their journeys and like talk tothem about situations or
(30:25):
theoretical situations orwhatever that might be, it's a
form of me also relating to whatthey're going through most of
the time and I think it's a formof validation for myself.
Selfishly, but I think that thepeople that see and hear the
(30:51):
real me are the people that I'mabsolutely completely
comfortable around yeah.
I think it's more so who I'mcomfortable around.
Get to see the real me.
You know what I mean.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (31:04):
I mean, I don't know like you
want to put this in or not, soI'll just keep talking and you
can choose.
Like is, are there familymembers so we think about?
Like somebody who, like you,feel safe enough to be you
around?
Like I feel very, very safewith my mom in 99% of ways, but
there's like that one percent ofme that, like you know, when it
(31:26):
comes to sexuality maybe I'mnot gonna share right.
So like, are there familymembers that you have where
you're very close with them andvery safe with them, but you
still feel like you're masking?
like I I don't talk to my familyabout anything gay related
really okay, and so I think thatpoint is really important,
(31:46):
right where it's like you'resaying you know there's there's
some people that you have thatsafety around and that that
safety it's not just safety ingeneral, like I'm sure you feel
very, very safe with your familymembers when it comes to
holding you when you're down andlike processing your emotions
on a bad day and, um, you know,supporting you through hard
(32:08):
things, but when it comes tothis it's it seems like you know
.
When I ask you what gives youmore permission to be yourself
on the street with strangersthan maybe with people who've
known you your whole life.
Right, it has less to do withwhere you are and more to do
with who's going to trigger orpoke that shame on the inside
(32:33):
versus who's going to like healit or like embrace it, right.
So Helga yeah, who is going totrigger Helga versus who's going
to embrace her?
Right, so that it's totallysubconscious, like it's not,
like you're actively thinking,like I'm going to so-and-so's
house, they will embrace myshame.
(32:55):
Therefore, I will be myself.
Right, it's not an activeconscious process this is all
just happening within you, rightwhere you.
Your brain is kind of doingthis work, in the back burner
where they're.
The way you operate, the wayyou enact, the way you move
around in the world becomesrelated to either avoiding
(33:16):
people triggering the shame orfinding safety to be able to
like, embrace it and hold, holdit.
Essentially, yeah I I don'tdisagree with that he looks sad
I, I feel like viewers or sorry,uh, listeners, joey Joey looks
sad tell us, this is this is whywe don't have a video feed.
Joey (33:39):
Um, I feel like I just want to like this is this is
where I need you to diagnose me,or whatever.
Like, when I talk about this isI.
I want to like first, just likejump in and say like I don't
feel not accepted by my familyat all, like I don't feel that
my family, you know, are like ohmy god, he's queer.
(34:02):
Like you know, my youngerbrother is also gay.
So, for context, like and soy'all got a fruity family for me
, on the other hand, like mypartner was very accepted in my
family, like you know, it's veryhonestly I'm very comfortable
with him being there.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (34:18):
It's not a reflection of your family
, is what you're saying?
Joey (34:20):
100%.
Yeah, I feel like that's.
I want to like make sure thatthat like is like known, because
.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (34:25):
I don't want to.
Yeah, hey, joey's mom, hi, hefeels accepted by you.
Joey (34:29):
Literally.
The Chill Therapist (Kris (34:37):
She's going to be listening to this
on the way to work and she'll belike panicking.
I want to label that, though.
So it's not a reflection of thepeople around you when you
don't feel safe or you don'tfeel empowered to be that
authentic you.
We're not saying they make itunsafe.
We're not saying, um, that theydon't embrace you, right.
It's more of a reflection ofthe um, the risk that you
(34:59):
associate and like the more youcare about people, the higher
the risk is.
So, of course, if we met you onthe street with random people,
they're gonna meet a differentversion of you, because you have
less to lose if they are astranger subscribe to the shame
that you carry.
If they poke it.
(35:19):
You're like I don't give a fuckbecause I don't, I'm never
going to see you again.
Right so it's not a reflectionof how your family's handled
your sexuality at all.
It's a reflection of howpainful it would be for you If
you felt that shame triggeredaround them at any point, so you
(35:39):
likely minimize the exposure orthe opportunities for them to
reject that part of you or likepoke that shame.
Joey (35:49):
yes, yes mommy processing yes brain, mommy um, I asked for
exposure in certain areas of mylife because I wanted to
understand them better in a waywhere myself and listeners can
(36:09):
educate themselves on,potentially, how they're feeling
.
Because, truthfully, between me, you and the listening um, the
most successful episode on thepodcast is the internalized
homophobia one and I found therewas a lot of feedback from that
(36:31):
episode.
Um, and listening to my guestscome on and talk about kind of
like the same kind of liketroubleshooting and like the
same kind of like experiencesthat it's.
It's not singular, it's verymuch there and everyone's aware
of it, but no one's reallyidentifying it and they just
kind of like closet.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (36:51):
The internalized homophobia yeah,
and like hearing you chat aboutthat.
I'm guessing like the questionsI'm asking you might also be
relatable then to your audiencethat listens, right?
So you know, you and I've beenchatting for like an hour now.
So I'm curious for you, like,are you surprised by the amount
(37:13):
of maybe like emotion thatexists for you in certain places
?
Are you surprised by maybe likethe parts of self that not that
you've neglected them orabandoned them, but are you
surprised by the parts of selfthat maybe, like, you don't know
as deeply as you thought youknew?
How are you like left feeling,because obviously we're like
(37:36):
scraping the surface here, right, like therapy is usually one
hour, like weekly for many, manyyears, right?
So, um, I'm just curious howyou're left feeling or what your
kind of like um observations ofyourself are after that the
number one take home for me isthis shame piece it's helga who
(38:00):
we identified as helga helga,you're coming home with me yeah,
she's got the.
Joey (38:05):
She's got the swedish like buns and everything, and she's
gonna go dude, she has braids.
She's gonna start likemassaging me tonight and be like
you know, she's got themonobrow like calluses on her
hand and the monobrow and she'slike ah not tonight, please no
um.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (38:22):
I find that identifying the shame
piece is triggering I know I'mgonna pause you there not to
challenge you on the word, butlike, like I'm sitting here with
you, I can tell that you wereactivated at that point like
what did it?
Joey (38:40):
feel like for you to hold that when we touched it I just
found that it wasn't like apiece that or like uh, I didn't
realize that was that I wasassociating with like and it was
associating gay with wrong,when I was like, prior to coming
out, or even today, today, eventoday, like there are, like,
(39:03):
like I said to you, like peoplelike sure, like they'll be, like
oh, he's gay, him, or like youknow, like they'll have their
own opinions and that's fine.
But I don't walk over and I'mnot like my flamboyant, like you
know, queer, comedic,comfortable self around.
I have to identify likelike-minded people like myself
(39:23):
to be this person.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (39:25):
So I find that you're curious
about the depth of the shameyeah, and I think that shame
piece is holding me back.
Joey (39:35):
I think, like in more than one way, I think, even in my
query, like the queer communityand like other pieces of me,
like I feel like, you know, likegoing to like a gay bar and
like you know, not looking toogay or, you know, turning people
off, I'm very much aware oflike this internalized
homophobia that like sure isgetting better and I'm
(39:56):
comfortable with who I am todaybut, like I said, like going to
a gay bar and like just notbeing super comfortable with I
don't want to feel like I'm likeinsecure because I'm I'm, I
feel like I'm securing myselfthat's the parts right so like a
part of you is secure andcelebrates and embraces, while a
part of you has experienced,like, heartbreak and pain around
(40:19):
the sexuality piece right.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (40:22):
So it's like I.
I like hearing you acknowledgethe shame in a way, because it's
like the human piece right likeregardless of if you're bi or
straight or queer, like howeveryou identify that that piece is
so human, right where it's like,even though there's a part of
you that is like 30 and a gayman in Vancouver and you want to
(40:46):
lean into that, there's also apart of you that carries a shame
and it like sounds like today.
Maybe you've realized how muchthat maybe bleeds into how you
act in the world around you justlike non-verbally nods his
(41:06):
non-verbals right now, like he'sI'm ready for a nap
Joey (41:09):
he's curled up, I'm like I'm like closed off body energy.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (41:13):
This is though, like when people
leave therapy after a sessionwhere you've done a lot of what
we call integrating, so you'relike picture a million pieces of
you in the world and we'vemaybe like grabbed 20 of them
and pulled them in closer tolike hold them and understand
them.
This is the integration.
Like you're tired, You'reprobably going to pass out after
(41:36):
this and you might even wake upfeeling like emotionally hung
over tomorrow.
Joey (41:39):
Where you're like I can already feel it.
I can already feel like I feelheavy.
I feel that like I don't know,I just feel like yeah, like like
that hangover piece, like Ifeel, like tomorrow my partner's
like are you okay?
Like you're being, like you'renot for a ball, I'm like just
dead and I'm gonna be like don'ttouch me um, it's like you've
been curled up in that ball forseven hours.
(42:01):
Yeah, he's like what's wrongwith your spine um?
That'll be 147 dollars hold onhold, on hold on.
The Chill Therapist (Kri (42:08):
People pay to feel this way but okay,
but this is the thing.
So, like, how you're feelingright now is like this is a
gross analogy, but it's like apimple, like you.
Like you have a pimple, you seethe white head and you pop it
and it gets like red and angryand inflamed and you're like,
fuck, why did I do that?
Like I made it worse.
(42:28):
And then, like the next day,you're like, oh, like it kind of
went away and it's lessaggravated and it doesn't feel
as uncomfortable, right?
so this is obviously the.
What we did today is intensiveemotional and mental integration
.
Right, we're picking up partsof you that you have maybe at
some points left behind or havebeen left behind by others, and
(42:51):
we're just grabbing them andlike popping them into the
fucking van and we're drivingwith them, right, so like, the
white man get in.
Joey (42:59):
I have candy I I would have I know, I know, baby I know
I would have got in.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (43:04):
I love sugar he's influential
influential, easily influenced.
All that to say.
The shame piece is human right,like, regardless of who we're
talking to.
That emotion is so deep and sodifficult to process that we
choose not to right, we avoid itor we pretend to be straight to
(43:24):
avoid it right.
So we will jump through a lotof hoops to avoid the shame is
all I'm trying to say.
And when we hold it, it isactivating, it is difficult, it
is uncomfortable, and so what Ikind of want to normalize for
you and for anyone who'slistening who might have also
felt like activated or triggeredby what we chatted about, is
(43:46):
that that part of you is nothaunting you, that part of you
is not trying to hold you back.
It simply just still needs youto understand it in a way that
you haven't been able to right,which is why it keeps showing up
.
And so, like today, for an hourwe held it, and like, of course
(44:08):
, it's not sustainable to do, toengage in these types of
conversations all day, every day, like it's heavy and you feel
the impact, and I see the impacton you.
You've melted into the brickwalls of your gas town loft and
so all that to say is that welike for tonight, you can put
this part of you back on theshelf and you're not abandoning
(44:29):
it, you're not leaving it behind.
It probably feels very gratefulthat I got space and, even
though that might have beenuncomfortable and like emotional
at times, you don't have to dothis type of work in the matter
of like one podcast, right?
So this is work that spans overlike months and years for it to
(44:51):
be honored in the way that itdeserves.
Joey (44:57):
I wanted to thank yourself for coming on the podcast
sharing your insight and yourprofessional opinion and just
talking through the very surfacelevel Internal isomophobia I
can't remember those otherreally big words you used.
The Chill Therapist (45:17):
Compulsory heteronormativity.
Joey (45:23):
Compat really big words.
You used compulsoryheteronormativity compet.
I appreciate your time and youbeing here and kind of
explaining, and more so, uh, thewhy as to you know why I feel
this way and you know whylisteners may feel this way or
if they're having trouble withlike troubleshooting, or you
(45:44):
know their everyday lives.
I feel like this is like a verygeneral topic.
Um, it's not so personalized,even though I get personalized
situations.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (45:54):
It's more so it's still very
relatable.
I know these are topics you guyshave been discussing for the
last few episodes of the podcastand I think today it was nice
to be able to give space to justlabel more of the specific
(46:15):
parts of self that help usunderstand and make sense of
these experiences overall.
That help us understand and makesense of these experiences
overall and I know that that wasyou did share your stories and
that was kind of more personalto you but I'm hopeful that your
listeners can relate to thatpiece around us.
Just naming, slowing down andeven just naming emotions that
(46:38):
live in the spaces of thesediscussions as a therapist, I
think I believe are very, veryimportant to being able to fully
understand what it is you'reholding and not just understand
but also move forward from right, like you're not going to be
able to work past these thingsif you don't know the emotions
(46:58):
that live there.
And I also want to extendgratitude to you for holding
space for yourself right andvisiting parts of self that are
scary for you or intimidatingfor you or even unsafe for you
for you to slow down and gothere today.
I'm also very grateful for thatenergy from you too.
Joey (47:20):
Thank you.
Yeah, I feel, um, I feelthere's a, there's a, there's a
journey here.
It's definitely a healingjourney and, um, it's one that
I'm definitely accepting of,like you know, clinical help and
, and, and, and, and, and, and,and, and, and, and, you know,
professionalism around.
(47:40):
I'm not against it, obviously.
This is the fact.
The fact that this is my firstever therapy session is might
come like to a shock to somepeople, but I think I'm not.
I'm not against therapy.
It's just, you know the barriersthat we face potentially with
therapy, like would it be likefunding or finding the right
(48:01):
therapist.
These are all like reallyimportant, um, keys to making
sure that you can unlockbasically your potential, I
guess, or like understandyourself the best with the
people that you feel comfortablearound.
So, um, yeah, like I appreciateyour time and like you coming
here and like definitely knowthat, like, the questions that
(48:23):
you asked were like very likevalidating and they resonated
well with me and I felt that, um, they brought feelings to the
surface which I've known arealways there, but, um, that why
piece is such a key, importantfactor to help overcome uh in
(48:50):
the future and understand betteras to like my response.
And, yeah, watch me on thestreet tomorrow holding my
boyfriend's hand.
You better watch out catch meoutside.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (49:01):
How about that?
Joey (49:02):
how about that?
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (49:03):
that would be very successful, like
that would be great performancereviews for me as a therapist if
in 50 minutes after one podcast, you your internalized
homophobia was healed okay, solike.
Joey (49:17):
My question with that, though, is like, if I was to go
outside tomorrow and hold myboyfriend's hand because we've
had this conversation, is that atrue representation of me, like
acknowledging, like helga, oror is that just me being like
too prideful and being like Idon't want to box myself in this
(49:39):
category, where I'm like thisis this, you know, self
homophobia, internalizedhomophobia that I want to like
now cut.
So, like I want to hold myboyfriend's hand to prove a
point, like because I am verymuch that person, like very much
like.
Oh, you know, the chilltherapist said that, like I have
internalized homophobia.
I don't want that anymore.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (50:05):
So I'm choosing by Helga and I'm
going gonna hold my boyfriend'shand, no matter what people
think.
The chill therapist said wehate internalized homophobia, so
we all hate internalizedhomophobia.
Joey (50:12):
Um the chill.
Therapist said we're going tothe club, so meet me at the club
.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (50:16):
We all fans um, no, but like, even
if you did it out of spite toyour own shame, you are still
doing the thing that istriggering for that shame, right
?
So at this point, like it, theintention wouldn't even matter,
whether you're doing it becauseyou feel like it now feels safe
(50:39):
or you're doing it because youhave an ego and you want to
prove something to yourself.
Like it doesn't really matter.
You're doing the thing that inthe past, has been unsafe and
inaccessible for you to do, andso, regardless of what would be
prompting you to do it, you'reexposing yourself to that thing
(50:59):
and you're going to be buildingsafety in it, right?
So if tomorrow, you decide tohold your partner's hand on the
street, even if it's justbecause you're the type of
person that needs to prove apoint, your nervous system's
going to know what it feels liketo acknowledge that there's
shame there.
Still choose to hold yourpartner's hand and for that to
(51:21):
be okay and safe, and you willremember that, right.
So the the intention doesn'teven matter at this point that's
gonna be me.
Joey (51:31):
That's gonna be me.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (51:32):
I'm like I'm gonna be driven to do
it you're open to likeexcavating through like layers
of self today and I'mappreciative of that and you're
right it's.
I know you're not opposed totherapy.
There's barriers, right, likelike you mentioned, like the
financial commitment and findingthe right therapist, and so if
you're looking for no, I'm justkidding think, if people reach
(51:55):
out and they feel like theyalign with me, I do what I can
to um make space for thosepeople, and so at the moment
there's there's some, I'd say,like gaps in the schedule where
people can can squeezethemselves in um, and you're
right, picking the righttherapist is really important.
So, if I don't know, if anyonefeels like they've aligned with
(52:18):
what we chatted about today,they can um follow me on socials
.
Joey (52:22):
I'm on tiktok, I'm on instagram, I'm on psychology
today we really just scratchedthe surface on mental health and
um specifically.
Obviously this is cateredtowards me, so, um, but I hope
that this helped.
(52:43):
You know people thatpotentially are listening, that
have felt a certain way or umhave felt sorry, felt a certain
way, or um have recognized itwithin themselves, like maybe
these parts too.
So you know, just listening islike like really educational for
someone.
Yeah, and honestly, if you'relooking for a therapist, the
(53:06):
Chill Therapist books apparentlyare open.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (53:09):
For the right person.
Joey (53:11):
Yeah, they are open and if not Psychology Today.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (53:25):
Has multiple other brain mommies
and daddies and parents ingeneral, brain brain teddies,
brain parents oh yeah, oh, oh no, oh joey, no, that would not be
good for thank you forlistening.
Joey (53:35):
If you've got this far, um , remember new episodes.
Go live every wednesday,remember I'm not gay but I am
that's where you say you are.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (53:46):
I'm not gay you are all right
that's right we are.
You need to give me closure Ithink I've had enough closure.
welcome back to another episode of I'm not gay.
You are with your host, joey,that is me.
Today's episode is a littledifferent to what we would
typically do, because I'm goingto be sitting in the hot seat.
I'm actually the one going tobe interviewed, and the one
leading the conversation todayis our very own the Chill
(00:34):
Therapist.
That's me.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (00:37):
I'm Christina, aka the Chill
Therapist.
I'm a clinical counselor herein Vancouver and I guess I have
the power today to put your hoston the hot seat, which I love.
I love that.
Joey (00:52):
The chill therapist, aka Christina, is going to be
leading the conversation and Imyself am going to be in the hot
seat and talking about a lot ofwhich you've probably already
heard throughout the podcastpeople's journeys and
experiences, sexuality comingout, and you know the identity
(01:12):
piece we're here today to gether professional opinion, I
guess, on my experiences.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (01:19):
The other piece that might make
today a bit different is thatwe're actually going to sit a
little bit more with the whyaround some of these pieces and
the how, so I guess the impact.
So I know you've done a lot ofchatting about coming out and
internalized homophobia and alot of these really big themes
when it comes to our sexualityin the past on the podcast, and
(01:43):
we're gonna kind of sit with thewhy of those things and how it
impacts you.
He's losing his therapy v cardtonight, yep, by sitting with me
and talking about this.
So that is a rare, a rarity.
Joey (01:57):
This is like this is the second time I'm losing my
virginity we are popping yourcherry my therapy cherry therapy
cherry, therapy, cherry, yeahyeah, it's an honor.
Oh, there she goes.
Is that what it does?
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (02:09):
I don't know nonetheless, we're
popping yours tonight okay yourequested to be more submissive
in this episode I requested tobe popped that's me putting on
my dominant pants.
I'm curious, uh, how much ofyour coming out story you've
shared with your listeners sofar.
Joey (02:27):
Throw me under a bus.
Call me Regina George.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (02:31):
This internalized homophobia in the
room with us.
Joey (02:34):
Literally, she's here, she's here.
Yeah, I find that my journeywas very broken in a sense of
like coming out, very broken ina sense of like um coming out.
It wasn't like I told everyoneon on one day, and it was across
like two or three years, that Iwas like actively sleeping with
men and like comfortable withyou know that decision and like
(02:59):
me doing that and then also, uh,like my parents didn't know,
but like right close friendsknew and that was really it.
And if people addressed me gay,like in, like a work setting
they didn't really know, I wouldjust go along with it because
they did it for you, yeah, andthey also didn't know like
straight joe or joe that likestruggled to come out, so like,
(03:19):
like you said, they already didit for me.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (03:20):
So it was like I didn't have to
like take that burden or likecome out and be a certain person
which makes sense, right,because the journey of coming
out is not like, it's not like ahallmark event, like it looks
in hollywood right, where peopleare just like holy shit, I'm
gay and today's the day I telleverybody I know and also like.
Joey (03:42):
I feel like to that point, though, too, like also how we
make it out to be like to thisday now, even to this day, I
always say, like you know, cakeand rainbows and smiles.
Like you know, did you get allthat like?
At the time when I was comingout, that was the last thing on
my mind.
I didn't want to draw attentionto it.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (03:57):
So there's the coming out to
yourself right, which is likethe journey in which you are
accepting your sexuality, and itsucks that we have to accept it
right, but we'll get into thatin a second with compulsory
heteronormativity.
But the first stage of comingout for you is coming out to
(04:20):
yourself right, like stumblingupon who you are.
What was that like for youbefore you told anyone else?
Joey (04:32):
um, I obviously like frightening and scary because
the realization of like thetherapy virgin is already
sweating yeah, literally I'mlike, my hands are so moist.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (04:43):
I'll go easy on you do you remember
the process of coming out toyourself, so stumbling upon,
accepting, embracing, like thisis who I am no, and that's
probably not the answer thatyou're looking for, but no, I
don't remember being okay withbeing gay.
Joey (05:05):
What I remember is this is going to sound so sad hating
myself for being gay.
And also I remember I've sharedthis in an episode before but I
remember like using onlinedating platforms with like a
blank profile.
Like using online datingplatforms with like a blank
(05:27):
profile just to talk to men,like virtually as like a step
because I was.
I.
I couldn't even like have aconversation with another gay
man that was comfortable withtheir sexuality because I
thought, by association, peoplewould look at me and think I was
gay.
The Chill Therapist (Kri (05:40):
That's how so the internalized
homophobia is in the room withus and so for you when you say
you know when I ask you aboutlike embracing your sexuality
and you track that.
That started with hatingyourself.
Do you feel like you're at aplace now where you embrace it,
(06:01):
or are you still learning how todo that?
Joey (06:04):
I think I'm like comfortable.
Well, no, I know I'mcomfortable with who I am and
where I'm at in life, but Idon't doubt that there is a lot
of humor that surrounds certainsituations that I create, in a
sense that I'm avoiding truthsor again, maybe taken back to
like more of like a heavierfeeling in me and instead I
(06:29):
tried to make it morelight-hearted.
So I like address it with humor.
Does that answer your?
The Chill Therapist (K (06:33):
question yeah, so there's like as much
as you are learning to love whoyou are and you feel authentic
and loving who you are, youtrack there those moments where
you're masking a difficultfeeling, whether that's like
shame or like confusion or likeyou're doing something wrong,
(06:55):
you still feel that bubble up.
Joey (06:57):
Totally Like, especially like in certain like social,
like events or like settings.
I feel like an example would beI'm not a huge fan of pda like
holding hands with my partner inlike the street and stuff again
because I don't like to drawattention and I feel like that
(07:20):
makes me uncomfortable how doyou feel when you witness hetero
pda?
also disgusted so for you, likearound the board, it's a no-go
yeah, but I think the differenceis I'm envious of the people
that are in a heterorelationship, that just hold
(07:41):
hands and don't feel likethey're being judged, and that's
what I'm envious of is like andlike I don't know, like maybe
I'm not being judged and likethis is definitely like an
internalized problem which I'mvery much aware of, but I'm sure
there's other people out therethat have the same kind of like
experience so it doesn't feellike when we're envious of
(08:06):
something, it's because we don'tfeel like we can have it right.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (08:09):
So somebody has something we don't
, and so in this, that straightcouple that's holding hands has
something that you don't haveaccess to.
What is that like?
What do they have there thatyou feel like you don't?
I guess like social acceptanceyeah, and like permission right
(08:30):
to just they don't even thinkabout the fact that they they're
doing that.
Joey (08:34):
I think that's what bothers me, I think, because
dissecting it with the naked eyeit's like not a big deal, but
then like taking it home andlike realizing and thinking like
the heterosexual couple that ismale and female walking down
the street holding hands feelscomfortable to do so and they
would never think otherwise,versus the two men that want to
(08:57):
hold hands going down the street, that have battled to be where
they want, where they are todayinternally, or you know, not
internally and like also likephysically maybe, um yeah, yeah,
and it's.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (09:14):
It brings us to the point of like
internal versus externalbarriers to embracing queerness
and like sexuality.
Right, because embracingqueerness and like sexuality
right because fortunately Icould speak for Joey and I, like
, living in Vancouver, there'snot a lot of external barriers
that would make it unsafe for usto be practicing queers in the
(09:36):
city.
Right like it's yeah, you'rethe minority.
If you're not queer in Vancouver, don't quote me on that.
I don't have a site.
And so we are privileged enoughthat we don't have to worry
about external barriers such aslike being unsafe right, that's
a privilege, I recognize that wedon't have to worry about that.
(09:57):
But in what you're describing,there's no one saying you can't
hold your boyfriend's hand whenyou're walking down the street,
and there's no one.
It's unlikely that anythingnegative would happen if you
were to do that.
And still there's a barrier,right.
So that's an internalexperience that you're up
(10:20):
against that's preventing youfrom being able to enjoy, like a
very basic relationalexperience in public.
And so if, if we label thatinternal thing I know we're
saying internalized homophobia,but like, what's the emotion of
that?
What?
(10:40):
What emotion do you feel?
Or what emotion do you imagineyou'd feel if you were to hold
your boyfriend's hand in public?
Joey (10:52):
insert crickets yeah, tumbleweed um.
I don't think it gives menecessarily like a power or like
an emotion in our relationshipor like for me.
I don't think you're likeyou're wrong?
Yeah, does it.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (11:09):
I don't know like well, there's
like it starts with a s and endswith a h-a-m-e h-a-m-e.
Joey (11:20):
Oh, shame bingo, I'm like there it is.
The Chill Therapist (Kri (11:25):
You're so pretty I it's my sehame
shahami, shame, shame yeah, thattriggers me the.
There's no external barrierthat prevents joey from holding
his boyfriend's hand.
In the city that we live in,most of the barriers are
internal.
We've labeled that asinternalized homophobia.
Joey (11:46):
So joey hate crimes himself essentially what's if I
was to walk down the street anda person was to yell faggot at
me?
The Chill Therapist (Kri (11:55):
that's externalized homophobia, so
that's, that's just, but that isa phobia but that is a piece to
what we're talking about.
Joey (12:03):
So you're saying there's no barriers where we live, but
I'm scared that that's going tohappen.
I don't want the attention.
I don't want people to likesingle me out and be like I'm
different, so therefore Ideserve that hate crime language
.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (12:18):
So you have fear around actual
homophobia, being like a victimof actual homophobia, and you
have internalized homophobia,which makes you the ultimate
homophobe which makes you thewinner of homophobia.
that's what creates thediscomfort, right?
(12:40):
So the the fear and'm going tovalidate that the fear is real,
right.
The fear of being criticized orhated for who you are Right,
like, we're not going to negatethat.
There is a piece of that.
That's just point blankhomophobia.
And then we have this addedpiece where, even if you were in
(13:01):
an environment where you were,it was not likely that you
weren't to be accepted.
So you know, like on mainstreet, at like an lgbtq
friendly bar or something inthat event, if you still are
feeling like you don't haveaccess to doing the thing the
(13:22):
straight couple's doing right infront of you holding your
partner's hand, there's a biggerinternal piece there.
Right that that you're upagainst yeah, that makes sense
which brings us to the shame.
Joey (13:35):
Yeah, I want to know what that bigger piece is well is it
starts with s and ends in humami.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (13:42):
Yeah , it's the shame piece.
And so, if we pause there,what's your relationship to your
shame?
Like, do you feel like you knowit well?
Do you feel like you're scaredof it?
Like, how do you relate to theshame that you carry as it
relates to your sexuality?
Joey (14:03):
I don't fully understand.
I understand the question, butI don't fully understand.
I understand the question, butI don't know how to identify the
relationship between myself andshame so if your shame had a
mic and we were like joey'sshame, like is that right here?
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (14:20):
yeah , if shame was in the room with
us and we miked her up, I'mgoing to give her a gender.
I guess your shame is she her,if we mic'd up your shame.
Joey (14:29):
Let's call shame Helga.
Oh, that's let's make If she'sinside me and she's living there
and she's a big piece of who Iam.
Helga is her name.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (14:40):
Okay , helga, who is inside?
Joey, shame, don't get excited.
So if shame had a mic and wewere to say, like, give us your
elevator pitch for why you exist, like what would your shame say
as it relates to your sexuality?
Joey (15:00):
I think all I can think of at the top of my head is more
so like situational that'shappened in the past is that
like people have always tried toout me before I was ever ready
and the terminology to be gay.
And like you know, when peopletell you that you're gay,
(15:21):
typically they don't tell you ina polite way, they tell you in
like more of a shameful, hatefulway and it's used against you
and not t like used for you as awin.
It's not like oh my god, honey,you're.
So you like you're queer andyou're gay and like I love who
you are.
It's never said like that.
It's like you're a fag oryou're gay or that's gay.
(15:42):
I'm going to share like a storylike really quickly because
it's it's not off topic.
But prior to me moving to Canada, I worked for a really large
fast food chain.
I was coming on to my shift andI was just starting and I
looked at the schedule and therewas a manager on duty that I
didn't really like.
I didn't think that was like anice person, but still like he
(16:04):
was my manager.
I wasn't gonna say anythingabout it and he walked over to
me and my back was against thewall and he came up to me on in
the, on the front counter, infront of all of like this was
like a very public setting, infront of like guests and
everything, and he made a jokeor something about me being gay
and I said, like in response no,I'm not, I'm not gay, like you
know.
Like um, defensive, 100%, likeyou know, I'm not gay and all
(16:29):
this stuff.
And the he picked me up by themy collar of my shirt, put me
against the wall and said you'rethe biggest faggot that I know
and that lives with me rent-freeevery single.
And I remember leaving and thatwas the first time I've ever
cried in public and I ran offthe shift, literally.
(16:54):
And I remember running offshift and there were like two
people that chased me but nevermade me feel that that was not
okay instantly.
They were like oh my god, areyou okay?
Like first of all, why the fuckwould you say that?
No, I just ran off crying andlike grabbed my bag and then
left to the front door throughlike a busy rush on a Saturday
(17:15):
morning.
That stuck with me for life andI feel like that shame piece is
like again, like this is whereit comes in is like when people
say oh like you're queer andyou're so fucking fun, or you're
, you're gay and like it likenowadays, maybe so like, maybe I
don't know.
Like I don't want to talk for,like our generation.
That's also not what I'm hereto do, but the shame piece
definitely comes from like whenpeople told me I was gay and
(17:37):
like it was never in like apositive way.
And again, I was always verydefiant and it took me moving to
a different country to feelcomfortable with who I am,
because I didn't have to facepeople I didn't know or people I
used to be straight around.
I guess.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (17:54):
Yeah .
Joey (17:55):
It was a long winded answer.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (17:58):
No , it makes sense though, right,
and it's interesting how ourbrains work that way.
Right, like I asked you aboutan emotion that's very clearly
directed to the internalizedhomophobia piece, which is very
clearly directed to the internalbarrier for you to embrace your
sexuality and have, like, basicrights in your relationship in
(18:22):
public, right, like hold yourpartner's hand.
So we're kind of like chippingdown to the core of what makes
that difficult.
And it's interesting when ourbrains think of a moment, right,
because that moment meantsomething to you in terms of why
you carry shame around thisright, and whether you can
(18:43):
articulate what that is or not,whether you move to a different
continent or not, that's stillwith you, right.
So you live in a veryprogressive city where there's
permission to be queer andthere's safe spaces and it's
celebrated acceptance, and thispart lives inside of you,
(19:05):
regardless of which continentyou're in right, which prevents
you from being able to dosomething.
That's a very basic privilegefor the straights.
So, as we're holding the shamepiece, it's obviously big, it's
obviously heavy and deeplyrooted right, like, as we're
(19:27):
learning, it stems way back.
And so I'm curious for you like, obviously, because that
feeling is so heavy anddifficult to hold, it's easier
to avoid it, and so, in order toavoid it, we try to lean into
what's normative or normal,which is heteronormativity,
(19:48):
right, being hetero is thedefault in society.
And so I'm curious for you didyou pretend to be straight, like
did you?
Was there a period of your lifewhere you tried to make that
work to avoid dealing with thispart of yourself?
Joey (20:06):
yeah, I feel that most of my, like you know, young
adulthood life, when I was goingout like I was very clearly
showing attributes of a queergay man very like high pitched
voice, like hung around with allthe girls, like wasn't really
interested in, like sports, andI guess there are stereotypes
(20:30):
and I do recognize that.
But unfortunately they werecategorizing me and put me into
a box without me fully beingaware of what that box was at
the time.
Um, but I think because of thiseternal internalized homophobia
and like this shame piece likethat I just grown up with, I was
naturally like placing myselfinto these stereotypes and did
the straight thing work for you,because I think that's where
(20:52):
sometimes people get confused,is that?
I had a girlfriend for a yearand a half.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (20:56):
And were you?
Were there parts of you thataligned with that?
Obviously, there were someparts that didn't but like
Believe it or not not, thoseparts.
Joey (21:07):
That's where this is very different and difficult for me
is because I didn't have anexperience with ex-partners
where I didn't enjoy like sexualactivity with them, right, like
that was, it's all I knew too,like I had not had sex with men
at this point or not, like youknow, indulged into same-sex,
(21:27):
you know coupling, um.
So it's all I knew andobviously it felt good and this
partner of mine was good to meand like loving it just.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (21:39):
And it allowed you to not face.
Joey (21:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (21:45):
If , if you can align enough with
heterosexuality, it allows youto not have to face those parts
of self Right.
Joey (21:56):
Mm, hmm.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (21:58):
And so what you're describing?
It has a term.
I'm gonna throw it out there.
It's a tongue twistercompulsory heteronormativity.
But we can shorten it to comphet.
Right, and it's.
It's basically the idea thatbeing straight is the default
that brings us into comp het,which is basically the idea that
being straight is the defaultthat brings us into compet,
(22:18):
which is basically the idea thatbeing straight is the default
Right.
So Disney movies, rom-coms,people asking what your mom and
dad do like all of that is builtaround systems that make
straightness the default Right.
And so if you're in a system ora society that has
(22:39):
heteronormativity at its center,at its core, and pieces of
heterosexuality work for you,you're going to try to fit into
that mold, right?
So if heterosexuality is normalin the society you live in,
which it very much still is, andpieces of that work for you,
(23:01):
the safer option is for you tofollow that system when you
actually subscribe to the system.
That allows you to stay safeand allows you to not face that
(23:22):
part of yourself, and it's thedefault system that everyone
else is fitting into.
Joey (23:25):
That makes sense.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (23:26):
You look like you're processing
here.
This is where my therapy hat ison.
I'm like he's lost.
You have like eight tabs openin your brain right now.
Joey (23:34):
There's probably more than eight.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (23:37):
Like what comes up.
I see the rainbow wheel.
At this point I'm like whatcomes up for you with the compet
piece.
So heterosexuality is thedefault.
Heterosexuality is like themold that exists in society and
(23:57):
you, having your experience,where you try to make that work
for yourself, right it?
Joey (24:03):
it sounds like it created confusion for you I'm not sure
whether it was confusion or justmore so like comfortability.
Comfortability is that theright word?
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (24:13):
yeah , so you got to avoid facing the
uncomfortable by subscribing tothe hetero norm.
All of that to validate, likethere's your own internal
emotions around why holding hishand is hard and not accessible
and there's this wider systemicthing happening outside of you
as well, right, which is thatthe system around you is not
(24:35):
built for you to hold his hand,and that's kind of like what
you're against on a daily basis,I guess.
Joey (24:42):
so like, even though I know that like this is the thing
, it's like hard, because I feellike we're talking like past
self and like present self, buteven though I know that like
where I live is very progressiveand very accepting and there's
this huge like comfortabilitypiece, I still like I don't know
(25:03):
, I'm still like worried yeah,and like that's where I think
about the younger you that gotheld up against a wall.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (25:12):
Like that you just shared with us.
Right, where it's like we can'tyou can't unlearn that
experience, right, so I likethat you just shared with us.
Right, where it's like we can'tyou can't unlearn that
experience, right, so I likethat you use language of parts,
because we do that a lot intherapy.
Right, that there's it's notjust all of Joey doesn't want to
hold his boyfriend's hand, orit's not just all of Joey that
really wants to.
Right, like there's a part ofyou that wants to probably feel
(25:36):
empowered to be able to do thatand have, like the basic right
to be able to express care toyour partner in public.
There's a part of you thatwants that and there's a part of
you that fears that and rejectsthat because of what happened
(25:56):
to you in the past.
Right, so, you're.
Right we're holding so manyparts of you that are all
happening within one person atone time that you have to hold
in that moment where you're likeI feel like I want to hold his
hand, but nothing within me isallowing me to do that you
obviously can.
You have a podcast aboutsexuality and coming out and
(26:18):
homophobia and internalizedhomophobia, and when you're in
the position where, like yourbrain knows it's okay for us to
talk about these things, you'reyou're having like a visceral,
physical, somatic experience,right.
That doesn't line up.
So your brain's like we're onthe podcast, we're supposed to
talk about this, and your body'slike this is really scary, like
(26:41):
I feel the shame and I feel thefear and it's.
I think it's just important forus to acknowledge that and
that's why I'm not trying tocall you out, but just for your
viewers that it's like this islike a gay man who has a podcast
and is comfortable in hisrelationship and still, when we
try to dig down into the layers,like those emotions come up
(27:01):
right, like you're holding yourbreath and you're covering your
face and the shame and the fear.
Joey (27:09):
My hands are clammy.
I'm like fidgeting, but I'vetriggered him folks.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (27:13):
I'm not sleeping well tonight.
Great success.
Joey (27:19):
No, I think it's very valid, valid like all this is
very valid and, like you know,like I'm very much aware, I
think of like what I'm goingthrough and like who I am and
I'm not ashamed of who I amtoday.
I think there's just moregrowing to do and more
understanding of like what I'vebeen through, to be who I want
(27:44):
to be and like I do want to feelempowered and hold my hand,
hold my boyfriend's hand in thestreet.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (27:49):
I just want to hold my own hand.
I can buy myself flowers.
Okay, miley Cyrus, pop off.
Joey (27:54):
If you were to meet me in the street, you would meet
someone completely different andI and I don't mean that in like
a I'm a false person I findthat as like a mask, like you
said, like it doesn't mean, likeI'm not who I am, like this is
like, obviously, an extension ofwho I am.
And like you know, I feel likeI'm gonna use an example but,
(28:18):
being a spin instructor, you're,you show up as this, you know,
motivator, and this person that,like can fill a room and you
have a big personality and youknow, like you're always showing
up for other people and like Idon't know, yeah, I feel like
that also plays a part in likewho I am today, but also in the
(28:39):
sense I'm saying I have aquestion here.
Does that make sense what I wassaying?
It does, but it like am I justlike beating around the bush
with it?
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (28:47):
No , no, it's making sense and I
think it's your mind is callingyou to something in what you're
saying, right?
So you're you're saying if youmeet me on the street in a
setting where nobody hasexpectation of joey and who joey
is you're gonna find someonedifferent than if we flew you
(29:07):
back to said continent where yougrew up, right?
So I think what makes mecurious about hearing that is
what gives you more permissionto be you in a setting where
there's no expectation of you.
Joey (29:25):
Can you please repeat the question?
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (29:26):
Can I call a friend?
So if we met you on this you'resaying, like if somebody random
met you, right, you're going tobe a different you.
Right, you're gonna, you'regonna be a different you.
And it's not because you'reinauthentic, but it's because
you do still at times mask partsof self.
And so I'm curious, I think,what gives you more permission
(29:50):
to be that version of you in asetting where no one knows you?
So there's like no expectation.
What makes that feel safer foryou to embrace and like align
with that version of joey?
Joey (30:04):
I think truly it comes down to generational people and
also if they're queer or notlike, truly like when I host
this podcast and when I talk toqueer people about you know
their journeys and like talk tothem about situations or
(30:25):
theoretical situations orwhatever that might be, it's a
form of me also relating to whatthey're going through most of
the time and I think it's a formof validation for myself.
Selfishly, but I think that thepeople that see and hear the
(30:51):
real me are the people that I'mabsolutely completely
comfortable around yeah.
I think it's more so who I'mcomfortable around.
Get to see the real me.
You know what I mean.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (31:04):
I mean, I don't know like you
want to put this in or not, soI'll just keep talking and you
can choose.
Like is, are there familymembers so we think about?
Like somebody who, like you,feel safe enough to be you
around?
Like I feel very, very safewith my mom in 99% of ways, but
there's like that one percent ofme that, like you know, when it
(31:26):
comes to sexuality maybe I'mnot gonna share right.
So like, are there familymembers that you have where
you're very close with them andvery safe with them, but you
still feel like you're masking?
like I I don't talk to my familyabout anything gay related
really okay, and so I think thatpoint is really important,
(31:46):
right where it's like you'resaying you know there's there's
some people that you have thatsafety around and that that
safety it's not just safety ingeneral, like I'm sure you feel
very, very safe with your familymembers when it comes to
holding you when you're down andlike processing your emotions
on a bad day and, um, you know,supporting you through hard
(32:08):
things, but when it comes tothis it's it seems like you know
.
When I ask you what gives youmore permission to be yourself
on the street with strangersthan maybe with people who've
known you your whole life.
Right, it has less to do withwhere you are and more to do
with who's going to trigger orpoke that shame on the inside
(32:33):
versus who's going to like healit or like embrace it, right.
So Helga yeah, who is going totrigger Helga versus who's going
to embrace her?
Right, so that it's totallysubconscious, like it's not,
like you're actively thinking,like I'm going to so-and-so's
house, they will embrace myshame.
(32:55):
Therefore, I will be myself.
Right, it's not an activeconscious process this is all
just happening within you, rightwhere you.
Your brain is kind of doingthis work, in the back burner
where they're.
The way you operate, the wayyou enact, the way you move
around in the world becomesrelated to either avoiding
(33:16):
people triggering the shame orfinding safety to be able to
like, embrace it and hold, holdit.
Essentially, yeah I I don'tdisagree with that he looks sad
I, I feel like viewers or sorry,uh, listeners, joey Joey looks
sad tell us, this is this is whywe don't have a video feed.
Joey (33:39):
Um, I feel like I just want to like this is this is
where I need you to diagnose me,or whatever.
Like, when I talk about this isI.
I want to like first, just likejump in and say like I don't
feel not accepted by my familyat all, like I don't feel that
my family, you know, are like ohmy god, he's queer.
(34:02):
Like you know, my youngerbrother is also gay.
So, for context, like and soy'all got a fruity family for me
, on the other hand, like mypartner was very accepted in my
family, like you know, it's veryhonestly I'm very comfortable
with him being there.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (34:18):
It's not a reflection of your family
, is what you're saying?
Joey (34:20):
100%.
Yeah, I feel like that's.
I want to like make sure thatthat like is like known, because
.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (34:25):
I don't want to.
Yeah, hey, joey's mom, hi, hefeels accepted by you.
Joey (34:29):
Literally.
The Chill Therapist (Kris (34:37):
She's going to be listening to this
on the way to work and she'll belike panicking.
I want to label that, though.
So it's not a reflection of thepeople around you when you
don't feel safe or you don'tfeel empowered to be that
authentic you.
We're not saying they make itunsafe.
We're not saying, um, that theydon't embrace you, right.
It's more of a reflection ofthe um, the risk that you
(34:59):
associate and like the more youcare about people, the higher
the risk is.
So, of course, if we met you onthe street with random people,
they're gonna meet a differentversion of you, because you have
less to lose if they are astranger subscribe to the shame
that you carry.
If they poke it.
(35:19):
You're like I don't give a fuckbecause I don't, I'm never
going to see you again.
Right so it's not a reflectionof how your family's handled
your sexuality at all.
It's a reflection of howpainful it would be for you If
you felt that shame triggeredaround them at any point, so you
(35:39):
likely minimize the exposure orthe opportunities for them to
reject that part of you or likepoke that shame.
Joey (35:49):
yes, yes mommy processing yes brain, mommy um, I asked for
exposure in certain areas of mylife because I wanted to
understand them better in a waywhere myself and listeners can
(36:09):
educate themselves on,potentially, how they're feeling
.
Because, truthfully, between me, you and the listening um, the
most successful episode on thepodcast is the internalized
homophobia one and I found therewas a lot of feedback from that
(36:31):
episode.
Um, and listening to my guestscome on and talk about kind of
like the same kind of liketroubleshooting and like the
same kind of like experiencesthat it's.
It's not singular, it's verymuch there and everyone's aware
of it, but no one's reallyidentifying it and they just
kind of like closet.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (36:51):
The internalized homophobia yeah,
and like hearing you chat aboutthat.
I'm guessing like the questionsI'm asking you might also be
relatable then to your audiencethat listens, right?
So you know, you and I've beenchatting for like an hour now.
So I'm curious for you, like,are you surprised by the amount
(37:13):
of maybe like emotion thatexists for you in certain places
?
Are you surprised by maybe likethe parts of self that not that
you've neglected them orabandoned them, but are you
surprised by the parts of selfthat maybe, like, you don't know
as deeply as you thought youknew?
How are you like left feeling,because obviously we're like
(37:36):
scraping the surface here, right, like therapy is usually one
hour, like weekly for many, manyyears, right?
So, um, I'm just curious howyou're left feeling or what your
kind of like um observations ofyourself are after that the
number one take home for me isthis shame piece it's helga who
(38:00):
we identified as helga helga,you're coming home with me yeah,
she's got the.
Joey (38:05):
She's got the swedish like buns and everything, and she's
gonna go dude, she has braids.
She's gonna start likemassaging me tonight and be like
you know, she's got themonobrow like calluses on her
hand and the monobrow and she'slike ah not tonight, please no
um.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (38:22):
I find that identifying the shame
piece is triggering I know I'mgonna pause you there not to
challenge you on the word, butlike, like I'm sitting here with
you, I can tell that you wereactivated at that point like
what did it?
Joey (38:40):
feel like for you to hold that when we touched it I just
found that it wasn't like apiece that or like uh, I didn't
realize that was that I wasassociating with like and it was
associating gay with wrong,when I was like, prior to coming
out, or even today, today, eventoday, like there are, like,
(39:03):
like I said to you, like peoplelike sure, like they'll be, like
oh, he's gay, him, or like youknow, like they'll have their
own opinions and that's fine.
But I don't walk over and I'mnot like my flamboyant, like you
know, queer, comedic,comfortable self around.
I have to identify likelike-minded people like myself
(39:23):
to be this person.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (39:25):
So I find that you're curious
about the depth of the shameyeah, and I think that shame
piece is holding me back.
Joey (39:35):
I think, like in more than one way, I think, even in my
query, like the queer communityand like other pieces of me,
like I feel like, you know, likegoing to like a gay bar and
like you know, not looking toogay or, you know, turning people
off, I'm very much aware oflike this internalized
homophobia that like sure isgetting better and I'm
(39:56):
comfortable with who I am todaybut, like I said, like going to
a gay bar and like just notbeing super comfortable with I
don't want to feel like I'm likeinsecure because I'm I'm, I
feel like I'm securing myselfthat's the parts right so like a
part of you is secure andcelebrates and embraces, while a
part of you has experienced,like, heartbreak and pain around
(40:19):
the sexuality piece right.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (40:22):
So it's like I.
I like hearing you acknowledgethe shame in a way, because it's
like the human piece right likeregardless of if you're bi or
straight or queer, like howeveryou identify that that piece is
so human, right where it's like,even though there's a part of
you that is like 30 and a gayman in Vancouver and you want to
(40:46):
lean into that, there's also apart of you that carries a shame
and it like sounds like today.
Maybe you've realized how muchthat maybe bleeds into how you
act in the world around you justlike non-verbally nods his
(41:06):
non-verbals right now, like he'sI'm ready for a nap
Joey (41:09):
he's curled up, I'm like I'm like closed off body energy.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (41:13):
This is though, like when people
leave therapy after a sessionwhere you've done a lot of what
we call integrating, so you'relike picture a million pieces of
you in the world and we'vemaybe like grabbed 20 of them
and pulled them in closer tolike hold them and understand
them.
This is the integration.
Like you're tired, You'reprobably going to pass out after
(41:36):
this and you might even wake upfeeling like emotionally hung
over tomorrow.
Joey (41:39):
Where you're like I can already feel it.
I can already feel like I feelheavy.
I feel that like I don't know,I just feel like yeah, like like
that hangover piece, like Ifeel, like tomorrow my partner's
like are you okay?
Like you're being, like you'renot for a ball, I'm like just
dead and I'm gonna be like don'ttouch me um, it's like you've
been curled up in that ball forseven hours.
(42:01):
Yeah, he's like what's wrongwith your spine um?
That'll be 147 dollars hold onhold, on hold on.
The Chill Therapist (Kri (42:08):
People pay to feel this way but okay,
but this is the thing.
So, like, how you're feelingright now is like this is a
gross analogy, but it's like apimple, like you.
Like you have a pimple, you seethe white head and you pop it
and it gets like red and angryand inflamed and you're like,
fuck, why did I do that?
Like I made it worse.
(42:28):
And then, like the next day,you're like, oh, like it kind of
went away and it's lessaggravated and it doesn't feel
as uncomfortable, right?
so this is obviously the.
What we did today is intensiveemotional and mental integration
.
Right, we're picking up partsof you that you have maybe at
some points left behind or havebeen left behind by others, and
(42:51):
we're just grabbing them andlike popping them into the
fucking van and we're drivingwith them, right, so like, the
white man get in.
Joey (42:59):
I have candy I I would have I know, I know, baby I know
I would have got in.
The Chill Therapist (Krisztin (43:04):
I love sugar he's influential
influential, easily influenced.
All that to say.
The shame piece is human right,like, regardless of who we're
talking to.
That emotion is so deep and sodifficult to process that we
choose not to right, we avoid itor we pretend to be straight to
(43:24):
avoid it right.
So we will jump through a lotof hoops to avoid the shame is
all I'm trying to say.
And when we hold it, it isactivating, it is difficult, it
is uncomfortable, and so what Ikind of want to normalize for
you and for anyone who'slistening who might have also
felt like activated or triggeredby what we chatted about, is
(43:46):
that that part of you is nothaunting you, that part of you
is not trying to hold you back.
It simply just still needs youto understand it in a way that
you haven't been able to right,which is why it keeps showing up
.
And so, like today, for an hourwe held it, and like, of course
(44:08):
, it's not sustainable to do, toengage in these types of
conversations all day, every day, like it's heavy and you feel
the impact, and I see the impacton you.
You've melted into the brickwalls of your gas town loft and
so all that to say is that welike for tonight, you can put
this part of you back on theshelf and you're not abandoning
(44:29):
it, you're not leaving it behind.
It probably feels very gratefulthat I got space and, even
though that might have beenuncomfortable and like emotional
at times, you don't have to dothis type of work in the matter
of like one podcast, right?
So this is work that spans overlike months and years for it to
(44:51):
be honored in the way that itdeserves.
Joey (44:57):
I wanted to thank yourself for coming on the podcast
sharing your insight and yourprofessional opinion and just
talking through the very surfacelevel Internal isomophobia I
can't remember those otherreally big words you used.
The Chill Therapist (45:17):
Compulsory heteronormativity.
Joey (45:23):
Compat really big words.
You used compulsoryheteronormativity compet.
I appreciate your time and youbeing here and kind of
explaining, and more so, uh, thewhy as to you know why I feel
this way and you know whylisteners may feel this way or
if they're having trouble withlike troubleshooting, or you
(45:44):
know their everyday lives.
I feel like this is like a verygeneral topic.
Um, it's not so personalized,even though I get personalized
situations.
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (45:54):
It's more so it's still very
relatable.
I know these are topics you guyshave been discussing for the
last few episodes of the podcastand I think today it was nice
to be able to give space to justlabel more of the specific
(46:15):
parts of self that help usunderstand and make sense of
these experiences overall.
That help us understand and makesense of these experiences
overall and I know that that wasyou did share your stories and
that was kind of more personalto you but I'm hopeful that your
listeners can relate to thatpiece around us.
Just naming, slowing down andeven just naming emotions that
(46:38):
live in the spaces of thesediscussions as a therapist, I
think I believe are very, veryimportant to being able to fully
understand what it is you'reholding and not just understand
but also move forward from right, like you're not going to be
able to work past these thingsif you don't know the emotions
(46:58):
that live there.
And I also want to extendgratitude to you for holding
space for yourself right andvisiting parts of self that are
scary for you or intimidatingfor you or even unsafe for you
for you to slow down and gothere today.
I'm also very grateful for thatenergy from you too.
Joey (47:20):
Thank you.
Yeah, I feel, um, I feelthere's a, there's a, there's a
journey here.
It's definitely a healingjourney and, um, it's one that
I'm definitely accepting of,like you know, clinical help and
, and, and, and, and, and, and,and, and, and, and, you know,
professionalism around.
(47:40):
I'm not against it, obviously.
This is the fact.
The fact that this is my firstever therapy session is might
come like to a shock to somepeople, but I think I'm not.
I'm not against therapy.
It's just, you know the barriersthat we face potentially with
therapy, like would it be likefunding or finding the right
(48:01):
therapist.
These are all like reallyimportant, um, keys to making
sure that you can unlockbasically your potential, I
guess, or like understandyourself the best with the
people that you feel comfortablearound.
So, um, yeah, like I appreciateyour time and like you coming
here and like definitely knowthat, like, the questions that
(48:23):
you asked were like very likevalidating and they resonated
well with me and I felt that, um, they brought feelings to the
surface which I've known arealways there, but, um, that why
piece is such a key, importantfactor to help overcome uh in
(48:50):
the future and understand betteras to like my response.
And, yeah, watch me on thestreet tomorrow holding my
boyfriend's hand.
You better watch out catch meoutside.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (49:01):
How about that?
Joey (49:02):
how about that?
The Chill Therapist (Krisz (49:03):
that would be very successful, like
that would be great performancereviews for me as a therapist if
in 50 minutes after one podcast, you your internalized
homophobia was healed okay, solike.
Joey (49:17):
My question with that, though, is like, if I was to go
outside tomorrow and hold myboyfriend's hand because we've
had this conversation, is that atrue representation of me, like
acknowledging, like helga, oror is that just me being like
too prideful and being like Idon't want to box myself in this
(49:39):
category, where I'm like thisis this, you know, self
homophobia, internalizedhomophobia that I want to like
now cut.
So, like I want to hold myboyfriend's hand to prove a
point, like because I am verymuch that person, like very much
like.
Oh, you know, the chilltherapist said that, like I have
internalized homophobia.
I don't want that anymore.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (50:05):
So I'm choosing by Helga and I'm
going gonna hold my boyfriend'shand, no matter what people
think.
The chill therapist said wehate internalized homophobia, so
we all hate internalizedhomophobia.
Joey (50:12):
Um the chill.
Therapist said we're going tothe club, so meet me at the club
.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszti (50:16):
We all fans um, no, but like, even
if you did it out of spite toyour own shame, you are still
doing the thing that istriggering for that shame, right
?
So at this point, like it, theintention wouldn't even matter,
whether you're doing it becauseyou feel like it now feels safe
(50:39):
or you're doing it because youhave an ego and you want to
prove something to yourself.
Like it doesn't really matter.
You're doing the thing that inthe past, has been unsafe and
inaccessible for you to do, andso, regardless of what would be
prompting you to do it, you'reexposing yourself to that thing
(50:59):
and you're going to be buildingsafety in it, right?
So if tomorrow, you decide tohold your partner's hand on the
street, even if it's justbecause you're the type of
person that needs to prove apoint, your nervous system's
going to know what it feels liketo acknowledge that there's
shame there.
Still choose to hold yourpartner's hand and for that to
(51:21):
be okay and safe, and you willremember that, right.
So the the intention doesn'teven matter at this point that's
gonna be me.
Joey (51:31):
That's gonna be me.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (51:32):
I'm like I'm gonna be driven to do
it you're open to likeexcavating through like layers
of self today and I'mappreciative of that and you're
right it's.
I know you're not opposed totherapy.
There's barriers, right, likelike you mentioned, like the
financial commitment and findingthe right therapist, and so if
you're looking for no, I'm justkidding think, if people reach
(51:55):
out and they feel like theyalign with me, I do what I can
to um make space for thosepeople, and so at the moment
there's there's some, I'd say,like gaps in the schedule where
people can can squeezethemselves in um, and you're
right, picking the righttherapist is really important.
So, if I don't know, if anyonefeels like they've aligned with
(52:18):
what we chatted about today,they can um follow me on socials
.
Joey (52:22):
I'm on tiktok, I'm on instagram, I'm on psychology
today we really just scratchedthe surface on mental health and
um specifically.
Obviously this is cateredtowards me, so, um, but I hope
that this helped.
(52:43):
You know people thatpotentially are listening, that
have felt a certain way or umhave felt sorry, felt a certain
way, or um have recognized itwithin themselves, like maybe
these parts too.
So you know, just listening islike like really educational for
someone.
Yeah, and honestly, if you'relooking for a therapist, the
(53:06):
Chill Therapist books apparentlyare open.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (53:09):
For the right person.
Joey (53:11):
Yeah, they are open and if not Psychology Today.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (53:25):
Has multiple other brain mommies
and daddies and parents ingeneral, brain brain teddies,
brain parents oh yeah, oh, oh no, oh joey, no, that would not be
good for thank you forlistening.
Joey (53:35):
If you've got this far, um , remember new episodes.
Go live every wednesday,remember I'm not gay but I am
that's where you say you are.
The Chill Therapist (Kriszt (53:46):
I'm not gay you are all right
that's right we are.
You need to give me closure Ithink I've had enough closure.
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