January 8, 2025 • 52 mins
Callum, affectionately known as "Tiny Daddy," joins us for an eye-opening conversation about identity, love, and the journey to personal authenticity. His unique nickname, birthed from a creative project during art school, intertwines his passions for writing and drag, becoming an integral part of his identity. Callum shares his early awareness of his sexuality and the supportive environment that nurtured his understanding of being gay, despite the challenges of relocating to a conservative town. His story is one of resilience, creativity, and the power of self-expression.
Our conversation takes an engaging turn as we explore the complexities of relationships, balancing between monogamy and open partnerships. Callum candidly discusses his choice to embrace an open relationship, emphasizing the crucial role of communication and breaking free from societal norms. We tackle common misconceptions about non-monogamous relationships, highlighting how setting boundaries and fostering honesty can lead to more authentic and fulfilling connections. The discussion provides valuable insights into the evolving dynamics of love and the importance of personal fulfillment in relationships.
The episode concludes with a look at modern dating and how platforms like Sniffies are reshaping the way people connect. Callum shares humorous anecdotes and lessons learned from these experiences, challenging traditional perspectives on marriage and connection. From redefining what marriage means to embracing the spontaneity of love, Callum encourages us to celebrate love in all its forms. It's a heartfelt reminder of the importance of adaptability, mutual respect, and personal growth in our relationships.
Follow the show on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/imnotgayyouarepodcast/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joey (00:13):
welcome back to.
I'm not gay.
You are with your host me.
That's joey, and today we havecallum on hi.
I was gonna say this is whereyou say hi sorry thank you for
being here.
I'm really excited to get intothe episode and first of all,
(00:34):
his legal name is callum, but weshould address him as tiny
daddy, as we all know him.
Let's get into a little bitabout that.
Tell us where Tiny Daddy camefrom, because that's actually
formally how you were introducedto me.
Callum (00:51):
I think that was how I was formally introduced to a lot
of people in the industry.
Okay Was it?
Yeah, it was it, sort of I wantto say okay.
So it became a thing with mybest friend that I went to art
school with.
We were working on a projectfor me when it was our last year
in university and just to havefun, I was so over it and ready
(01:13):
to be done, I decided to likeactually be the project.
So it was a written projectclass, it was like an English
writing class, but you had thewhole term to write something
and I did like a fake gallerycurated thing and um, and then
at the second part there wasanother portion of it where I
(01:33):
did my.
I put myself in drag and so itwas this whole.
Like you know, I was like 23 orwhatever and most people like
have this first go of, likewanting to be in drag for the
first time, and I was like Imight as well kill two birds
with one stone and get an A onthis project.
So we my friend came over to myhouse, we got really basically,
just like you know, did ournormal thing.
Then we do we hang out anddrink two bottles of wine and
(01:55):
smoke two packs of cigarettesand take a bunch of pictures.
But when we were coming up witha nickname later, I think, for
uh, like an Instagram post orsomething, how we tied it
together with my social media.
Um, she was like, we got ontothis conversation about, um, uh
(02:16):
uh, gay tribes, because it was ahuge part of my, my written
project, and I was explaininggay tribes to her partner and,
like, going into details aboutlike daddies and bears and all
that stuff, and she was like,and details about like daddies
and bears and you know all thatstuff.
And she was like he was likeokay, well, what are you?
Because you're like hairy butyou're thin and like, if it's
just based on body type, so he'slike you're like a small daddy.
And I was like, yeah, like atiny daddy.
And then that, just instantly,I was like, oh, my god, we
(02:38):
thought it was the funniestthing ever.
And then the next day it justbecame my Instagram, uh, which
has since changed, unfortunatelyI know why I saw that recently
it became one of those thingslike people either love it or
hate it.
Unfortunately, it's like like myboyfriend thinks it's kind of
silly, but it's become soubiquitous with how people
identify me over the last likefive, six years that I can't
(03:00):
really escape it anymore.
Joey (03:01):
So I've kind of just embraced it like very purposeful
and not where I thought it wasgoing to go.
I feel like now it's like oh,it kind of makes sense, and why
isn't there a tiny daddycategory as a tribe?
Callum (03:12):
It was just yeah, it was just kind of like a like.
Of course a straight man wouldmake the association of
something like that, but thenecklace that I have, the tiny
dad, is from my friend who didthe project with me.
Joey (03:26):
She like got it for my birthday, so it's just sort of.
Callum (03:28):
Yeah, it's sort of solidified itself.
Well, welcome to the podcast.
Joey (03:29):
Tiny daddy, it's good to be here talk to me about when
you first knew you were gay,like when you was it.
Was it someone you watched ontv, was it?
Callum (03:39):
no, it was just I just real and natural, i't know.
I just remember being a kid inlike grade three, grade two, and
like noticing boys in class andlike not not knowing that like
my proximity was something thatadults were watching.
Like I remember, like I alwaysobviously you guys get along
(04:01):
great with girls growing up andI have a lot of girlfriends but
like I noticed teachers startingto like almost not separate me
from the boys but like it just Igot the sense that something
was in the ether, like etheraround me or something.
Joey (04:15):
Like they were talking about you.
Like they were yeah.
Callum (04:17):
And I think part of that is because it was such a being
gay in my household was soaccepted.
I have a gay uncle on my dad'sside who is like my best friend
in the family and there were alot of signs growing up that I
was gay, like dressing up intutus and feather boas and like
we have a great photo of me andlike a hot pink tutu with a
(04:39):
feather bow and a pink day hatand you know, it's just like
there's all these little greatgay kid iconic moments that
we've captured.
But, um, when I knew for surewas, I think, when we moved to
northern california, um, in whenI was in grade five, five, six,
because we I had experience inbullying when I was young in
(05:02):
school in school.
Um, there was one biggerincident when I was in southern
California still, where therewas a group of kids who like
kind of ganged up on me and likeyanked me off the monkey bars
and whatever.
Um, so that was one of the onlytimes it actually got pretty
physical, but it ended quickly,thankfully, thankfully, um, but
I noticed it a lot more becausewe moved to northern California.
(05:23):
We moved to a much moreconservative small town and the
bullying increased like tenfold.
So it was something that likefrom an early age always having
parts of your personalitypointed out to you by strangers
and people that you don't know,in the form of questions or you
know, know that sort of thingLike are you gay?
(05:45):
You kind of don't really have achoice to not think about your
sexuality, unfortunately.
I have a question.
Joey (05:51):
Did you question your sexuality when these questions
were being asked, or did you?
Callum (05:54):
just know I did or like did you try and fight?
It, I did yeah, especiallybecause it was like in grade six
was when I first startedgetting like that first hormonal
attraction to people,especially like I had the
biggest crush on my best friendat the time and knew nothing
(06:15):
would ever happen, andespecially because they had such
an extremely homophobic father.
Do they know?
Oh, they know and it's, andthey had that friend of mine.
They had a family who had a lotof kids.
His mom had kids from separatemarriages and they had a family
who, um, they had a lot of kids.
His mom had kids from separatemarriages and he had two older
gay brothers.
It was very obvious the dadawfully accept them.
One of them had hiv um and hadactually, if I remember
(06:38):
correctly, had us actually sincepassed um we've lost touch, me
and my friend over the yearsjust for me moving here.
But I just remember goingthrough that and like feeling so
like excited about having areally close guy friend but
confused about all of the likeattraction and feelings that I
(07:00):
was kind of building at the timeright, while also going through
so much hate from so manypeople at school that I tried to
mask it by dating girls andhaving girlfriends so I was a
bit of a player in middle schoolyeah, I mean test the waters
like you know if, but when youknow, you know, I guess yeah.
(07:22):
I feel bad for the girls at somepart, but at the same time I'm
like none of those relationshipslasted more than six months,
because I was fucking 10, solike dead or dwelled, don't feel
bad.
No, it's funny and we'reactually like remember when I
did come out later, it was soobvious and so accepted and, um,
I'm actually like, yeah, I had.
I was really fortunate in thatI've had um strong family to
(07:46):
support me.
My sister ended up coming outabout five or six years after me
.
Joey (07:52):
Okay, and she's older, love that.
Callum (07:54):
Yeah, so we have quite a gay little family.
Joey (07:57):
Any other siblings?
Callum (07:58):
My half sister, who's nine years older than me.
On my mom's side.
She has a different dad.
Yeah, her and my other sister,my lesbian sister wow, okay, so
and my gay uncle.
We were all actually, uh, whenmy sister and I moved back home
in my interim year betweencoming back here to finish
school, my uncle and my sisterand I were all living in the
(08:20):
house and my mom was sitting atthe dinner table with us.
It was just the four of us andshe's.
It's really quiet and she'sjust chewing and she goes.
When the fuck did I become theminority in my own home?
Joey (08:31):
my mom said the same thing this Christmas.
When I went home, my youngerbrother's gay, yeah, and his
partner was there and me andCatlin were there, and then my
dad was at the table and my momwas there and she went wow, it's
like it's more of a man's housenow, but not many grandkids
gonna be here I just rememberthe interaction between kids
(08:55):
being so much more ruthless andlike coming from california in a
small town uh, there was a lotof shit circulating it was
direct.
It was very direct.
They're direct like jabsthey're not like you know,
someone comments an emoji on apicture and you're like, oh, how
do I interact?
No how do I make of?
What do I make of that emoji?
(09:16):
Is it they mean this, or doesit mean this?
Or could it mean this?
Callum (09:18):
no, this would be like my teacher would leave the room
to go grab a pen or somethingfrom next door and then some
asshole would be like hey,callum, are you gay?
And like ask in front of thewhole class.
Joey (09:26):
And then we would start laughing and it's like that kind
of shit.
Yeah, that literally triggersme.
Callum (09:30):
I'm literally like yeah, let's call my therapist now it
triggers me in a way where I'mlike I, I see myself more as
like a ghost adult in the room,and if I had the pleasure of
just being able to actuallysmack a kid, I probably would,
but like see like I want to turnaround now.
It's like jen is ian and belike you almost trust her god,
there really is no better insultto somebody than to say nice
(09:54):
wig to somebody who's notwearing a wig yeah, literally,
literally, yeah, yeah yeah, butthat's what I mean.
We were saying this earlier,before we started this.
But like having that that quickbanter to shoot shit back at
somebody who's giving sass toyou, like I envy that in you so
much, that like, because Iwasn't like that as a kid, I
would, I was a bit of a shot atan introvert and because when
you're ganged up by so manypeople, it's hard to like really
(10:16):
get a word and edgewise, unlessyou start to finally feel like
you've got either support oreven a crowd.
Joey (10:23):
I hate to say it, but when you're a kid, and it's that
petty and the thing is as wellis like you need like this
sounds awful too, but you need,like the majority of the people
on your side, so like you needto know that what you're saying
is loud enough for everyone tohear, for them to laugh at, to
be on your side enter my bestfriend, evan dean, who came in
and was literally my likesecurity guard.
Callum (10:43):
yeah, she would clap back at any guy who ever said
anything, to the point where sheactually made several boys cry
and it was fantastic.
Joey (10:52):
Good.
Callum (10:53):
And the best part is, I didn't have to say anything.
I just stood there and watched.
Joey (10:56):
My arms folded like a sassy little bitch.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that.
Yeah, tell me about your firstboyfriend when was that?
Or your first boyfriend whenwas that?
Or your first, your firstboyfriend and then, like the
first time, you kind of likestarted going on like dating
apps and like, were youcomfortable?
Callum (11:12):
like oh okay, so here's some tea.
So when I came out, I came outat 13 um and back then that was
a much well, I mean it was abigger deal, even though I knew
it shouldn't have been, becausewhen I was in high school it was
like Prop 8 was really big andObama was running and the
(11:33):
Defense Against the Marriage Actwas like gay rights was
everywhere.
It was like all you reallyheard about in the five years
leading up to that election.
So there was a lot ofconversation circulating, even
amongst students that I grew upwith, because we had a huge
school.
So by the time that I wentthrough everything in middle
school and bullying, it was likekind of about time that I was
just fed up with it all.
And when I finally started tostand up for myself I was like
(11:56):
no, I can do this.
So in high school there was abig club sign up day.
It was a GSA and my sistercaught me in line so she outed
me to my mom technically waitclub sign-up day club sign-up
day was like all the differentcampus clubs um like choir club
and you know whatever which oneare you signing up for?
The gay straight alliance gsa,gsa because you guys don't have
(12:18):
this back home not england,maybe here, I don't know.
I don't know it's so it's verycommon now in, uh, in the states
.
I don't know necessarily aboutCanada, I don't, because I just
didn't go to school here.
I know that I've heard peoplemention it but yeah, like the
gay straight alliance was likeit was basically just like a
support group, like meetinggroup for young kids who
identified as non-straight andit was like fully uh,
(12:41):
non-disclosed.
It was like I remember theteacher was an english teacher,
she was very sweet, um, and itwas mostly just like a room that
, like kids could feel safe tojust hang out and during breaks
and stuff, right okay and liketalk about their experiences.
But I went and I actually it'sfunny I felt like walking in
(13:01):
there was only five peoplesitting there um five people
you're like and I'm pretty surethere may have only been one
other queer person there, otherthan me wait what so it was like
clearly them and their friendsthat started the group, which is
great.
I love that love.
You know, support your buddies,but I remember leaving and
(13:22):
being like I don't think I'mgonna get anything out of this
instantly.
The straight friends were likeyou and him are gonna fuck well,
and then there was also likebecause when I came out,
everybody knew me it was alreadysuch a huge deal I made.
Going through the end of thebullying process was like very
publicized on how it all ended.
So when I finally took a stancefor myself and came out, it was
(13:45):
like I was the youngest personever in my hometown to come out.
Most people waited until afterhigh school or their senior year
, so it really spread aroundlike a different conversation
about I just tried to be reallyactive on how to like prevent
bullying on campuses and likeworked with the administrations
(14:06):
at both my middle school and myhigh school to like be tougher
on bullying and it actuallysurprisingly worked.
Like they did actually make afew changes, which was great,
yeah, but it was.
I mean to go back to yourquestion.
I know this seems kind of long,but when I came out, what ended
up happening was people wereasking me for advice a lot,
because MySpace was juststarting to be a thing and
(14:28):
people were finding me onlineand from other towns like other
like kids from different highschools were finding me and
asking me about my experience,about your gay Jesus of
California, I guess.
I don't know but then you'reyoung and I was 13 and I was
like well, maybe I'll just be anadvice columnist and I'm just
going to.
You know, I have a MySpace nowand a blog, so maybe I can just
do that.
Joey (14:48):
Little Miss Carrie Bradshaw.
Callum (14:49):
Cut to meeting my first boyfriend.
Joey (14:52):
Okay, he was.
How old were you?
Callum (14:55):
I had just turned 14.
Joey (14:57):
Okay.
Callum (14:57):
He was 12, going on 13.
Oh, he went to the same middleschool as me and remembered me
and me being terrible with namesand faces.
I just was like, okay, sure.
And then basically whathappened was he asked me about
advice on how to come out to hisfamily, um, and so I asked him.
I was like, well, I was likeI'll fully disclose.
(15:18):
Like my family was verysupportive and I didn't really
have much of a fight, so I can't, like I can't fully give you
advice, I can just try to besupportive for you.
And then we actually becamereally good friends online and
it became an ongoing kind ofconversation over a few months
about like how did you know, youknow, have you ever been on?
Like what have you seen online?
(15:39):
Like you start asking more ofthose questions in a way that
for me was also the first timethat I had had a real one on one
with somebody my own age, kindof struggling through all of
that.
That wasn't like a completestranger from someplace else,
(16:00):
but was actually like in myhometown, relatively close by.
And then over a while we justwe decided to meet up.
We like walked and hung out atthe school playground and it
very quickly was like very, veryinfatuated love, um, and we had
a lot of really greatexperiences.
I think that when I look backto it, um, um, we're really
special.
We dated all throughout highschool.
Joey (16:21):
Wow, you were together for how long.
Callum (16:24):
It was.
I mean, we were on and off acouple times just for different
reasons, but you know, you'reyoung, but it was in total about
six years.
Joey (16:34):
Wow, high school sweethearts.
Callum (16:37):
It was really great.
He's a sweetheart and we'reactually.
We reconnected a couple yearsago and he's with his partner
out new york now and he's doingreally well so, yeah, you're in
an open relationship.
Joey (16:48):
Why do you think people get into open relationships over
monogamy?
Like what, what, like, okay,what is?
Obviously you can only talkabout your experience, like your
reasoning but like yeah, talkto me about your reasoning like
what?
What does it?
How does it benefit yourrelationship to be
non-monogamous?
Callum (17:07):
well, yeah, I mean, this is exactly what you said.
This is one of those topicsthat, like, you can really only
base your experience on, unlessyou feel like there's enough of
a reach from like my.
My wider social network hasbeen expanded now with my
partner because he is a reallysolid group of gay friends and
most of them are in openrelationships for different
reasons.
Ultimately it boils down to thelike the need for sexual
(17:31):
contact and sexual experienceright, but for us it was more so
defined in that, like, oursexual roles are defined in our
relationship.
So he's a top and I'm a bottom,um, and I'm fine with that.
We're both totally happy withthat.
But since him and my previouspartner, um, I had like a, I
(17:52):
went almost four years withoutdating anybody seriously, which
was a huge period for me anddefinitely like dipped back into
the dating pool, yeah, buttried to like switch the
reversal those roles up fromwhat they've always been and
felt like you mean you being abottom?
like I wanted to try toppingmore and um actually like just
(18:16):
cast myself into in a wider netof like sexual experiences.
I was really struggling withsex in the previous relationship
and it was a big issue for us,um that I think just having a
period of experimentation andthen going into a new
relationship it does form adifferent um like set of
expectations for yourself, evenUm and me and my partner.
(18:40):
Now we have such clearcommunication about what we want
for ourselves and for eachother that it was actually a
pretty straightforwardconversation about me saying
that you know, I would like tobe able to meet up and have
friends and and like have morecasual experiences with people
(19:02):
where I can explore that, and itwas a no-brainer for him.
He was, like if that's what youwant to do, then we would have
to do this because, like thereit wouldn't work any other way.
You would the the sexualfrustration does eventually
catch up with you, right, if inthe back of your mind, you're
thinking that you're lackingsomething in your current
relationship and us.
It was a great opportunitybecause I was really looking to
(19:25):
not have a heteronormativerelationship like I have had in
the past I think in all myprevious last relationships it
was always with this intentionof like life partner working
towards all the same things thatstraight people do and like
really put a lot of pressure onmyself that ends up bubbling
into the relationship and ontothe other person that I knew I
(19:48):
didn't want to get involved inthis time and like took the last
four, like previous years tounderstand um, and it's been
going great for us.
I mean, I think, the time thatwe're living in now with
obviously like prep and doxy andthere's all these new programs
out there that are great formen's health, but it does
(20:09):
increase your chances so muchmore knowing that there are so
many people in openrelationships who are just
completely on their own rules.
So it's a little trickynavigating.
In terms of like we don't havemany rules in our relationship.
We can pretty much have sexwith whoever we want, whenever
we want, as long as we're stillprioritizing us number one.
(20:31):
So like we don't have sex withmore people in a week than we
would with each other, unlessit's just, you know,
circumstantial or something Like.
We wouldn't be upset about it.
But if we haven't had contactwith each other for weeks and
we've both been other people,that would be problematic.
He was really great at lettingme set up what I thought the
(20:53):
rules would be or ask me what Ithought I would want when we
first decided, because it was myfirst relationship.
He wanted to give me that powerand I told him I was like I
think it's actually best for meas a first timer to not have
many rules, because I know whatwould be key triggers in terms
of like jealousy.
Like if you meet somebody elseand there's infatuation and then
(21:13):
you fall in love and that's adifferent relationship forming.
But if it's just about sex andwe can keep sex non-jealous and
separate from our relationship,then we have nothing to worry
about.
Joey (21:24):
So do you worry that, going to the jealousy part part,
do you worry that you will meetup with someone and like form
feelings like, does that everlike cross?
Callum (21:36):
your mind it did.
That was the.
That was kind of.
My big question to him was andagain we've talked about this in
the sense where this is reallymore of like I was coming from
such a place of insecurity, um,within myself.
But when I asked him you knowmy fear would be is that what if
we do realize I'm not the rightperson?
(21:57):
or we realize in you know, sixmonths to a year or however long
we're going to be together,that you know you end up meeting
somebody that you have betterchemistry with, or the sex is
better, or you have acombination of all these things
that you actually didn't realizeyou weren't having here, quite
(22:20):
honestly, was like the pill Iswallowed to clear my sense of
jealousy in this situation,which is that, like things like
that happen, whether you're inan open relationship or not, all
the time right, people meetpeople, they fall in love.
You know they get really, evenif they don't fall in love or if
they don't cheat necessarily,you can form a connection with
(22:42):
people all the time, and if thewhole point of being ethically
non-monogamous is to allow yourpartner to have full support for
any of the decisions that theywant, then you can't.
And again, this is maybe why Ididn't have many rules on ours,
but it's why you can't allowthat pressure to bring you down,
(23:05):
because it's really ultimatelyyour choice how you feel about
the situation, but you do haveto follow like what feels right
for you Right.
So again, like this would notbe the right approach for
everybody.
I think that most people do havevery hard lined rules about
either like time and place, likenever, never in our bed, or
(23:25):
those sorts of things.
I just find that's where for us, I didn't want to set things up
to be a problem later.
Sometimes you have to.
Sometimes it's just easier tohost than it is to travel that
sort of stuff.
So I didn't want to get intothe nitty-gritties, I just
wanted us to make sure thatwe're still prioritizing
ourselves first and we are good.
Joey (23:46):
Well, I'm glad it works for you.
Right, like if that's what youdecide, you and your partner
need and want.
See it as a healthy option.
And that's it works for you,right, right like.
I think the reason I wanted tokind of exploit it and talk
about it today was more so justbecause I feel there's a huge
(24:07):
stigma behind open relationshipsbeing too commonplace, or and
also just like really gayforward, like why are they not,
like I'm like monogamous, why ismonogamy like uh, like a
straight term, like you knowwhat I mean?
like why in the wirenon-monogamous relationships
more queer?
Callum (24:26):
based.
See well, and that for methat's problematic because I
think non-monogamy is, hasalways been there.
It's really just religion andhistory that tried to tamp that
down, I guess.
Joey (24:37):
So yeah, and I feel like, also like getting into it now, I
feel like I see it more as likeblack and white, like a lot of
people cheat and marriages endbecause they believe that they
should be married by their 22 orthey think it's the numbers on
it are.
Callum (24:51):
I don't want to make up a random quote on a number here,
but it does happen in amajority of relationships where
there is one person who ends upstepping outside of the bounds
of their relationship, right?
So at least just having theacceptability of something
happening.
I mean, like I've watchedreally great relationships fail
because cheating is just like ahard no and like, for me, that
(25:16):
level of forgiveness is you'retorturing yourself your whole
life If I think, if you allowsomebody else's actions to
dictate where you're at withyourself, I just find that to be
something that doesn't work forme.
So it's best if we approach itas a partnership.
But the support of what we wantis, you know, ever expanding
(25:39):
and it can change at any time,right?
So, like, the only rule we setin place, for example, is that
if at any point we want to takea break, then if one person
wants to, then we will my lastquestion, probably on this.
Joey (25:52):
I'm going to get into theoretical situations, but is
your opinions on umnon-monogamous relationships,
being queer, focused and likethe stereotypical social norms
behind that being slut or like?
Callum (26:15):
Oh, I mean I'm not a slut shamer in any sense of the
word.
Okay, I mean especially in thelast five years.
I mean especially in the lastfive years, but I do think that
again, I mean this is where theethical non-monogamy thing comes
in is that I'm not particularlyone to just want to fucking
(26:37):
leave.
I do like having a connectionwith somebody.
I like there to be a bit morepassionate and a bit more longer
sessions and all that kind ofstuff.
And if we can have arelationship where it's casual
and it's like a bit more of asituationship, that's even
better.
Because for me and this istotally a personal thing, but
like being an outsider in a city, even as long as I've been here
(26:58):
I love meeting people and Ilove being somebody who's kind
of a social butterfly betweendifferent groups.
Joey (27:03):
Right.
Callum (27:04):
So because it's such a small city that you bump into
people all the time and I wouldrather be more comfortable
knowing more people than shyaway from it and keep everything
locked away and private andseparate.
So, like I tend to be withpeople who are more than happy
to have this, be more than oneexperience, and understand that,
like my partner, where we're atand everything's great in terms
(27:26):
of, like, the interpretation ofit or the perception of
non-monogamy as, like thisidentifier now within the queer
community, I don't think it'snecessarily something to back
away from, but I do think orlike to be ashamed of or I don't
think there's anything wrongwith it.
I would actually encourage theopposite and say, like I guess
(27:49):
the idea is that, like obviouslyyou're for it.
Yeah, I guess.
Joey (27:53):
Like that's obvious, that you, it works for you and, like
you know, and obviously giventhe type of person, whether it
works for them or not, how doyou react?
I guess in the response of morehetero normative people yeah,
is that the right word?
Callum (28:13):
are you asking like what is their?
How do I feel about theirinterpretation of correct?
Joey (28:17):
yeah, considering like it's, it's more so
stereotypically it's.
Callum (28:21):
I guess that's why I'm struggling a little bit with the
question because it does feellike it's.
I have to go in with theimpression of I'm assuming
they're coming at it from a sidethat I can't really assume.
Joey (28:32):
Okay, I'm going to give you an example, a theoretical
example.
Callum (28:35):
Okay.
Joey (28:35):
I'm a co-worker of yours.
Mm-hmm.
Female Mm-hmm.
And you say oh yeah, yeah, I'min a real open relationship.
And then they go oh well, ohyeah, this has happened all the
time.
Well, why, and like how couldyou ever sleep with somebody
else that's not your partner?
Like, like, tell me yourresponse.
Callum (28:54):
Like, let's play this out, okay.
So I we've actually had I havehad at least 20 female
co-workers that we've workedwith asked me this question.
Joey (29:00):
I don't want to say it's always women, because I don't
want to say that, because Idon't know.
Callum (29:04):
But I feel like women ask more about relationships
than men do.
That's why, honestly, I thinkit's I think it's the
competition aspect of it.
I don't feel in competitionwith other men.
I think, in the same sense thata lot of straight women do with
like each other.
Joey (29:18):
But do you worry, though, that your partner would find
someone that potentially likethat that competition aspect and
was like oh, like but again,that's what I said earlier is
that like that could happen,whether we're open or not?
Callum (29:31):
So I mean if, if we were in a close relationship and one
of us was traveling all thetime and I guess, so you know
what I mean.
Like there's, there's so manycircumstances.
Joey (29:39):
Yeah.
Callum (29:46):
Straight people.
There's so many circumstancesthat straight people experience
all the time, and that's what Imean is it's like I think it's
more detrimental to be thatrigid.
I think that the rigidity ofthe heteronormative aspect, of
just being monogamous, issomething that queer people have
advantage of, because obviouslysocietal pressures against us
aren't forever, but it justallows us to be able to write
our own rules and and define ourrelationships however we want,
(30:07):
because I mean, especially frommy experience being open, I've
met so many different types ofpeople I would never have
normally met, and sharing thosemore intimate experiences before
and after we sleep together,sometimes that you know I'll
stay over.
Sometimes we'll have breakfastin the morning or go for a
coffee or whatever, or hang outand watch a movie.
There's so many different waysthat it's not just about sex.
(30:33):
And it doesn't threaten therelationship at all.
Joey (30:35):
Yeah, it's connection.
It's connection, and I thinkqueer men really seek that out
as a necessity more thanstraight people do in this
theoretical situation, thisperson might see it as a threat
because you might have astronger connection with the
person that you just met versusyour partner that's at home and
(30:58):
like, given the openrelationship that allows and
opens the floodgate for you tomeet and potentially get a new
connection with someone that isstronger and better, it's the
fear, I think it's the fearaspect of like you might find
someone better or morecompatible with and the partner
is allowing that to happen.
Callum (31:20):
So again, I mean that fear is in.
Realistically, that's in anyrelationship.
100, yeah, you know, I just Iguess I understand the
perspective of like if you'reopen, you're increasing the
chances of them having moredistractions and more
opportunity to find new love orwhatever, and maybe that's true,
but I guess the the reality isI don't want my partner to feel
(31:47):
like they're ever trapped in arelationship and, after going
through so many relationships inmy life and some ended great
and some ended horribly ifsomebody did actually meet
somebody, if my partner metsomebody they really wanted to
like, leave me for yeah I thinkthat that would be such a.
It would obviously be adevastation, but I think there's
(32:10):
a huge part of me now who wouldaccept that, like that's a part
of life and that is the risk oftaking it if you're going to be
open and like willinglyentering into having those
intimate moments with otherpeople.
But I can.
I think it's still one of themost powerful things that you
can experience, um to releasethat fear and release that
(32:35):
jealousy right like well, you'vehad nights where we're both
with people, and at thebeginning it was a little harder
for me to like sit there andimagine him with somebody else.
I think that's ultimately whatthe hardest part is for most
people, right?
is like sense you know, like Iknow, that for him he's it means
nothing, and like he's more theperson that gets jealous of
situations like professionally,or comparing yourself to
(32:58):
somebody who's, like you know,excelling more in other areas.
Sex and relationships is justnot something that he gets
jealous in for me.
It took me a minute to get usedto, but then the more I sat
with it and the more I engagedin it, the easier it was for me
to let go, because it's it's.
You realize how silly it is,like I know he's not over there
worrying about me or imaginingme falling in love with somebody
(33:20):
.
I think that ultimately, if youreally think that that's the
biggest threat in therelationship, then and like that
, it's bound to happen.
It probably will.
And I don't think the monogamyor non-monogamy aspect of it is
necessarily the cincher.
I think it's just maladies anda disconnection.
So rather than so.
(33:41):
That's why, for me, I'm like ifit ends, it's probably for the
best it's almost like aninsecurity currently within you
or the relationship and so, andlike my partner, are more
supportive of each other inother ways, like we don't put
pressure on finances on eachother and think of it
necessarily even as like ourmoney per se, because it's like
(34:02):
we're independent people andwe're here to support each other
as independent people andbecome, be companions, be
partners, be, you know,companionship for us, I think is
is the biggest thing, that'swhat really gets you through
life and your relationship, andif you don't have that, it's
probably doomed from the start.
Anyway, thanks for chattingwith that.
Joey (34:20):
I feel that's a not so many have the same outlook as
you and I and I and I reallyunderstand more after listening
to what you said and like now,like the purpose of your open
relationship and how it worksfor you and it might not work
(34:42):
for others, you know, and Idon't think it would work for me
and my partner and I'm happy ina monogamy relationship,
monogamous relationship with mypartner, but if it works for you
, I, you should be doing it.
You know what I mean.
Callum (34:52):
Like I don't understand.
Joey (34:53):
Like there's no harm in trying something and I think
this is again societal normstrap people, yeah, and they make
people, you know, shy away fromsomething because they're like,
oh, that makes them a slut,because they're.
They have a partner back homeand they're sleeping with all
these other people, or you knowwhat's if they fall in love with
their, their person having sexwith or the person having
(35:16):
breakfast with or isn't it crazy?
Callum (35:17):
I mean that what you're really saying is like we so many
of our expectations that wehave on relationships really are
just what we're comparing to beother people's expectations for
what they want, and I feel likethat's so the last thing you
need to be thinking about inyour own relationship with your
partner like you said before,again, a relationship is defined
socially or likestereotypically, by religion.
Joey (35:39):
Like what is marriage?
Marriage is like a union ofpartners coming together in the
church in the church of god.
Yeah right, like you know beingmarried, and like I've had this
conversation with my boyfriend,I'm like you know, if we ever
get married, like what does thatmean?
Callum (35:55):
like, are we?
getting married nowadays justbecause we want to get married,
because we feel like that's theright thing in the next step,
well and see that I think isactually going to be something I
was thinking about when I wason my way over here because I
had a feeling we'd get on thison this topic.
But I think if I had stayed inCalifornia, my approach would be
my approach at least on themarriage thing would be
(36:15):
different, because the healthcare system is different.
There are, there are like veryreal legal reasons why I
understand people in the queercommunity desperately want and
need to be married.
Um, we'd explain that I don't.
I don't know what that is likeif something were to happen to
your partner and they're in ahospital.
I mean, it wasn't that long agothat, like, unless you were
their immediate kin, youwouldn't be able to have access
(36:37):
to any decision making.
You know, before marriage waslegalized Like common law,
protection for queer people inthe US was not the same level of
protection that it is here.
I think that, like common lawhas been institutionalized a lot
longer in Canada, like commonlaw is has been
institutionalized a lot longerin Canada, so there's less worry
about those major circumstancesthat I think in the States.
(36:59):
I would be a bit more um.
I would understand why peopleare are are motivated to seek
out marriage.
Joey (37:05):
Right, I think that for for the legal protection
purposes.
Callum (37:10):
I would do it, but in terms of, like the big fucking
thing and the-.
Joey (37:15):
And the dress you're going to wear.
Callum (37:17):
And the thank yous and the the gifts Fuck off.
I don't want to do that.
Like my partner and I jokeabout having a surprise wedding
where we just tell people we'rehaving a barbecue and you can't
not come.
Joey (37:28):
Oh my God, I would love to go.
You know what I mean and like.
If I get an invitation from abarbecue at all anytime soon or
in the future, you better knowI'm dropping everything.
Oh my god, it's the best.
I'm going to show it with arack of ribs and, like Knowing
that it's a wedding, I'm goingto be like oh, I got the ribs.
Who's got the brisket?
Callum (37:46):
The reality of what I was still there, whereas now
that I've been here as long as Ihave and I've experienced my
relationships and I'm in therelationship I'm in now we've
talked about what actually feelsmore aligned to the idea of
(38:07):
marriage to us.
If we were to try to define it,for us is a celebration of your
life together.
Were to try to define it for usis a celebration of your life
together.
So, rather than making aproposal that our life is going
to be this way, why notcelebrate that it already has
been and it will continue to bethis way?
So, rather than getting marriedafter knowing each other for
six months or two years, likewhy not be together?
(38:30):
And then, maybe 10 years later,you celebrate that you've been
together for 10 years and, likeyou know, it's like a
post-celebration of how real thetestament of your love is, that
way you're not constantlyliving up to this expectation
that it has to be up here and ifit doesn't, the marriage fails.
(38:51):
That's the kind of trickle downissue that I have with
monogamous relationships.
For myself is that, more oftenthan not, I've realized that one
person's expectations arehigher than the others, or
people will feel like they'reconstantly going back and forth
and not leveling with each other, and I find that or at least I
(39:14):
found in this relationship it'seasier for us to just be really
open about everything and nothide how we're feeling or what
we're going through.
Um, granted, like we both don'twant to hear the other person
just whine and complain andbitch all the time, but like you
know, that's a part of itthat's just a part of it.
That's a relationship, so you doit and you love them anyway
(39:36):
yeah, but or you just drown themout while they're talking yeah,
that too yeah, you know, I'mlike just mute your phone while
you're scrolling it's fine, yeah, um no, but I just think that
it's you.
The rules rules of engagementare totally definable and are
allowed to change fromrelationship to relationship.
(39:57):
Because you change fromrelationship to relationship.
Joey (40:00):
And also, as you grow older, you change.
We're never the same person.
We're always growing.
We're always changing.
Callum (40:06):
This is why it's crazy to me.
Joey (40:07):
Societal norms are changing, everything is changing
and we are adapting as humans.
Callum (40:13):
It's crazier to me to watch people who just
consistently get remarried intheir life, like you've had five
or six marriages, like I don'tthink the wedding and the and
and the aspect of being marriedis the thing that but they see
it as purposeful like I know, wedon't, and like neither did the
four husbands that she had, oror they had.
(40:34):
I'm sure she sees it as apurposeful.
She's getting fucking alimonyfrom all of them.
Joey (40:40):
I just I think it's just become something that.
And going back to my originalstatement, obviously marriage is
stemmed from religion and Idon't know whether I see myself
like stood in a church, like forsomeone reading like a script
from, like a bible or whatever,or whatever they do, and they're
(41:02):
, like you know, versus johnchapter.
Callum (41:05):
Oh my god, have you ever been to like a really religious
wedding?
No, my cousins.
I love my cousins.
They're so sweet, but but on mymom's side we're Jewish and
they're born-again Christian.
Joey (41:18):
They're born-again Christian.
Yeah so what does that mean?
Callum (41:21):
They're like super Christian.
Joey (41:22):
But they're Jewish.
Callum (41:25):
Culturally our background is like Hasidic Jew.
It's like our heritage.
We have a group of people inour family that's extended who
look and sound so Jewish buttheir faith is so Christian and
I love them.
They have like hearts of gold.
I mean they've really taken allof the beautiful aspects of
religion and applied it.
But I just remember theirwedding was like so heavy, heavy
(41:49):
in scripture that like, if youdo like it was like the game
Punch Buggy, when you see like aVolkswagen beetle and you like
punch somebody and you're doinga road trip or something.
I felt like I wanted to do thatevery time they said Jesus.
Joey (42:01):
Yeah, or take a shot.
Yeah, exactly I would havewasted and then kicked out.
Callum (42:05):
But um, it's just funny, like I don't know.
Like their rules work for themand that's great, but like I,
just the thought of gettingtrapped in all that lifestyle it
seems like a trap.
I don't have time for it.
No.
Joey (42:20):
Too busy.
I think that's all I have onopen relationships.
Great, but no, seriously.
Thank you for sharing.
Yeah, because I know it canfeel like targeted and like I
don't.
It doesn't want.
Callum (42:34):
I don't want to come across that way, no if anything,
I I would never interpret itthat way.
I mean, I'm so open aboutrelationships, not, you know,
just as a conversation.
So for me it's like, ifanything anybody listening to
this here's this and has thoughtabout it, and even if it's just
like in the back of your mindand you're in a relationship and
(42:54):
you love this person, butsomething doesn't feel right, or
you you feel like, not justlike you're having a wandering
eye and those sorts of things,those are different signs of
different problems in arelationship that are specific
to that.
This is, I think, the mostnumber one reason why people go
into it is because they knowthat there are larger
experiences that extend outsideof their relationship that their
(43:18):
relationship can't fulfill.
That it's, yeah, they, theyknow that it can't fulfill and
it's not detrimental to ruiningthe relationship to explore
those, those experiences.
Joey (43:27):
It actually enhances them and if it was detrimental, you
need to look at other options,like potentially like leaving
the relationship and pursuingsomething else, or looking for
something else.
Callum (43:37):
Right, yeah and like again define your own rules,
guys, like for us.
The only other rule that wehave it's not really a rule,
it's just a preference is likewe don't really play together
because my partner is not reallyinto group play.
Right into group play, right?
Um, I am, but I don'texperience those situations all
(43:57):
the time for risk purposes andwhatever.
And I want to make sure that,again, like it's with people
that I've either encounteredsomething with or and I can I
know that the connection isgoing to be there, because who
wants to go into a fucking, youknow, group situation and
somebody's stressed and can'tfigure it out?
So yeah you.
That's what I mean.
Like you go through these thingsand you test, try stuff, and
you can do that in a way thatyou could do when you're single,
(44:19):
sure, but if you have thesupport of a partner who, like
mine, you can talk about thoseexperiences with after and in
group settings and like we'revery open with who we've slept
with, since we've been togetherwith our friends and our friends
are like that with us, it justyou realize how quickly these
walls fall, fall down and likeit becomes this other thing that
(44:40):
yes, at the beginning somephases for some people you can
get caught up in it and thenpush it a little too much.
But that's where you set thoserules at your own pace, you can
figure it out and then you canfind what makes you
uncomfortable and notuncomfortable.
So if you find out in the endthat it's actually not what you
want and you are too jealous oryou are too stressed out
thinking about them spending toomuch time with other people,
(45:02):
you've got to reevaluate thingsin the relationship.
So for me it's like it actuallypresents the opportunity for us
to check in with each othermore, where I think other people
just let resentments build andbuild and build and before, and
you've already destroyed therelationship before you haven't
even had the chance to recognizeit yeah, so I have a
theoretical situation.
Joey (45:23):
are you ready for this one ?
And I'm curious on yourresponse now.
But just because, stemming fromyour situation, so you're in an
open relationship and then yourex is single, but they fly into
town, you see them on socialmedia and this ex we're going to
(45:44):
talk about like your personalex, because my high school
partner and I have actuallyalready talked about doing that.
Callum (45:50):
Okay, since we've reconnected, we've definitely
shared some pics and had somekinky times, and he's invited me
to new york.
Oh no, we know what happened.
We had fantastic sex when wewere younger, yeah you know.
Joey (46:01):
You also know each other's bodies and stuff, but so
there's no limitation there toyour partner your partner's not
gonna be like uh, you're gonnago fuck your ex that you were in
love with for seven years, orsee, that's what's funny, I
guess, I see me inside screaming.
Callum (46:18):
I see how that presents is like extremely problematic
and threatening to therelationship.
If you were to allow yourpartner to go and sleep with
their ex in any other situationit would be a huge red flag.
But like the reality is, atleast for this situation, me and
my ex are both in committednon-monogamous or ethical
(46:38):
non-monogamous relationships, sofor us to be able to go and
experience this together, whoknows what could happen.
Like I flew back out to sanfrancisco a couple years ago to
for sf pride and he was nolonger living in san francisco
because him and his partnermoved to new york.
They moved to it.
Well, actually they living insan francisco because him and
his partner moved to new york.
They moved to it.
Well, actually they moved fromsan francisco to miami and
bought a house in miami and thenmoved from miami and now live
(47:00):
in brooklyn and his partner ownsa place in sf and miami.
Joey (47:04):
So they're so he's rich.
Callum (47:05):
They're doing very well yeah I'm like he's not gonna
leave his rich ass boyfriend formy broke ass because I'm still
serving, so we don't have toworry about that.
Joey (47:13):
Serving more than just tables.
Callum (47:15):
Honey, he's got the 401k .
Joey (47:19):
He's got those good benefits.
Callum (47:21):
I have like 400 orders from McDonald's that you can
access anytime.
No, I just think that like thatwould be a really great, almost
new experience of likereconnecting with somebody that
I haven't seen after almost adecade now, who we had almost a
decade strong relationship with,where we're both in different
(47:42):
places and we've both accepted,you know, the faults of our past
, like who that would be a.
To me that sounds like abeautiful thing to re-experience
, because who knows how awkwardit would be or how
instantaneously like it's rightback where we were.
But for me I don't think itwould be like a.
I don't think it's the the, theromance, fantasy of like
(48:07):
getting sucked back into thisgreat burning love that I had
with.
I think people watch too manymovies to actually experience
that that's me but you know whatI mean.
That's what I mean like peopleset these expectations up in
these fantasies in their headand these, like they play things
out, these play thesenarratives out in their mind
about what could happen and youactually don't know.
Joey (48:28):
They also set an expectation that that's going to
happen too.
They're like, oh, we're like,we're gonna meet up and it's
gonna be this, this, this, this,this, and it's not right, like
that's.
Another thing is that, like,they expect this rekindling and
this like re-ignition of, likespark or something potentially
like in your situation.
If you were to hook up withyour ex, your partner, okay,
(48:51):
giving your situation, no, but,like in my situation, I would be
like, um, my partner's gonnafucking have sex with his ex
partner and then leave me.
You know, like you, you createthis narrative, like you said,
in this expectation, and maybethat's wrong of us to do that
and, yeah, I don't know I thinkpart of it, too, is you set the
(49:12):
experience you're gonna have.
Callum (49:13):
So if your expectations are too high and you're going
into it, you're stressing and inthe background you're behaving
or acting on things that arefloating around the back of your
head that either you don'tactually want to be doing or
that, or vice versa, like I justI just think we have more fun
as queer people and we don'thave to put as many rules on
ourselves.
I'm like yeah, I just think wehave more fun as queer people
and we don't have to put as manyrules on ourselves.
(49:34):
And like, yeah, just live inthe moment and figure it out.
You know there's no harm intrying something and if you
realize that it was horrible andyou hated it like a bad grinder
hookup, sometimes thoseexpectations are really high too
, and you meet them and you'relike oh, yikes.
Yeah, you're like oh, and I'mlike yikes oh, I didn't realize,
(49:55):
you're not you like I didn'trealize you had yeah years I
didn't realize we were stillusing our high school photos.
Joey (50:05):
I didn't realize that while I drove here um you, aged
20 years.
Yeah, you know that's a scaryplace too, grinder.
Callum (50:12):
Sometimes, yeah, a grinder to me is like boring and
a waste of time.
Now, oh.
But I don't use grinders really.
I mean, I do, but not really.
I use sniffies.
Joey (50:25):
Sniffies is.
Callum (50:26):
Sniffies.
Yeah, it's more direct.
Joey (50:28):
What's that?
Callum (50:29):
Oh baby, I'm sorry, wake up and smell the rosebuds
Apparently.
Oh baby, I'm sorry.
Joey (50:34):
Wake up and smell the rosebuds Wait.
Callum (50:38):
Yeah, it's like an online platform, it's not an app
base.
Joey (50:41):
You log in on like your internet provider, well that's
why people don't know what it is, because you've got to go back
in time.
No, but you can do it on yourphone.
I just do it on my phone.
Callum (50:49):
I might work all the time fucking checking it out On
Safari.
Joey (50:56):
It's so funny.
It's basically it's table 90strying to flag you down for a
glass of water.
Callum (50:59):
Oh my god sniffies is literally like replace.
Grinder is like the number one.
Really.
I got that, yeah, because it'sway more direct, and the thing
with grinder is that like I feellike grinder was it was like it
was.
I don't want to say it's myspace of social media it's full
of straight men.
Joey (51:12):
That's what it is.
Callum (51:14):
I've actually found that in a way, I find them.
I see I'm finding more bi andanonymous men on Grindr looking
for very specific things,whereas Sniffies is like either
everybody in the city hasmigrated to it or is using
multiple apps to find specificthings that they're looking for.
Sniffies is really universal.
(51:34):
It's literally just like assand dick pics floating around on
a map and you can look onpeople and message them and
there's like group access points.
There's like little geocachehookup spots all over the city,
like in the gyms and in thesaunas and in the parks and
whatever, so like you can findand locate people and kinks and
where to experience them,basically any time of the day
(51:56):
thanks for being here.
Joey (51:58):
It's been so great yeah, thanks for sharing your
relationship status.
Your view is just kind of likethe dynamic of that, because I
feel like I've learned a lot hey, I've learned a lot in doing it
, so Well, as always, Iappreciate your time and thanks
for being here.
You're always welcome back andremember I'm not gay, you are,
(52:23):
I'm not gay.
Callum (52:34):
Want to suck a dick.
Suck a dick, I don't care.
welcome back to.
I'm not gay.
You are with your host me.
That's joey, and today we havecallum on hi.
I was gonna say this is whereyou say hi sorry thank you for
being here.
I'm really excited to get intothe episode and first of all,
(00:34):
his legal name is callum, but weshould address him as tiny
daddy, as we all know him.
Let's get into a little bitabout that.
Tell us where Tiny Daddy camefrom, because that's actually
formally how you were introducedto me.
Callum (00:51):
I think that was how I was formally introduced to a lot
of people in the industry.
Okay Was it?
Yeah, it was it, sort of I wantto say okay.
So it became a thing with mybest friend that I went to art
school with.
We were working on a projectfor me when it was our last year
in university and just to havefun, I was so over it and ready
(01:13):
to be done, I decided to likeactually be the project.
So it was a written projectclass, it was like an English
writing class, but you had thewhole term to write something
and I did like a fake gallerycurated thing and um, and then
at the second part there wasanother portion of it where I
(01:33):
did my.
I put myself in drag and so itwas this whole.
Like you know, I was like 23 orwhatever and most people like
have this first go of, likewanting to be in drag for the
first time, and I was like Imight as well kill two birds
with one stone and get an A onthis project.
So we my friend came over to myhouse, we got really basically,
just like you know, did ournormal thing.
Then we do we hang out anddrink two bottles of wine and
(01:55):
smoke two packs of cigarettesand take a bunch of pictures.
But when we were coming up witha nickname later, I think, for
uh, like an Instagram post orsomething, how we tied it
together with my social media.
Um, she was like, we got ontothis conversation about, um, uh
(02:16):
uh, gay tribes, because it was ahuge part of my, my written
project, and I was explaininggay tribes to her partner and,
like, going into details aboutlike daddies and bears and all
that stuff, and she was like,and details about like daddies
and bears and you know all thatstuff.
And she was like he was likeokay, well, what are you?
Because you're like hairy butyou're thin and like, if it's
just based on body type, so he'slike you're like a small daddy.
And I was like, yeah, like atiny daddy.
And then that, just instantly,I was like, oh, my god, we
(02:38):
thought it was the funniestthing ever.
And then the next day it justbecame my Instagram, uh, which
has since changed, unfortunatelyI know why I saw that recently
it became one of those thingslike people either love it or
hate it.
Unfortunately, it's like like myboyfriend thinks it's kind of
silly, but it's become soubiquitous with how people
identify me over the last likefive, six years that I can't
(03:00):
really escape it anymore.
Joey (03:01):
So I've kind of just embraced it like very purposeful
and not where I thought it wasgoing to go.
I feel like now it's like oh,it kind of makes sense, and why
isn't there a tiny daddycategory as a tribe?
Callum (03:12):
It was just yeah, it was just kind of like a like.
Of course a straight man wouldmake the association of
something like that, but thenecklace that I have, the tiny
dad, is from my friend who didthe project with me.
Joey (03:26):
She like got it for my birthday, so it's just sort of.
Callum (03:28):
Yeah, it's sort of solidified itself.
Well, welcome to the podcast.
Joey (03:29):
Tiny daddy, it's good to be here talk to me about when
you first knew you were gay,like when you was it.
Was it someone you watched ontv, was it?
Callum (03:39):
no, it was just I just real and natural, i't know.
I just remember being a kid inlike grade three, grade two, and
like noticing boys in class andlike not not knowing that like
my proximity was something thatadults were watching.
Like I remember, like I alwaysobviously you guys get along
(04:01):
great with girls growing up andI have a lot of girlfriends but
like I noticed teachers startingto like almost not separate me
from the boys but like it just Igot the sense that something
was in the ether, like etheraround me or something.
Joey (04:15):
Like they were talking about you.
Like they were yeah.
Callum (04:17):
And I think part of that is because it was such a being
gay in my household was soaccepted.
I have a gay uncle on my dad'sside who is like my best friend
in the family and there were alot of signs growing up that I
was gay, like dressing up intutus and feather boas and like
we have a great photo of me andlike a hot pink tutu with a
(04:39):
feather bow and a pink day hatand you know, it's just like
there's all these little greatgay kid iconic moments that
we've captured.
But, um, when I knew for surewas, I think, when we moved to
northern california, um, in whenI was in grade five, five, six,
because we I had experience inbullying when I was young in
(05:02):
school in school.
Um, there was one biggerincident when I was in southern
California still, where therewas a group of kids who like
kind of ganged up on me and likeyanked me off the monkey bars
and whatever.
Um, so that was one of the onlytimes it actually got pretty
physical, but it ended quickly,thankfully, thankfully, um, but
I noticed it a lot more becausewe moved to northern California.
(05:23):
We moved to a much moreconservative small town and the
bullying increased like tenfold.
So it was something that likefrom an early age always having
parts of your personalitypointed out to you by strangers
and people that you don't know,in the form of questions or you
know, know that sort of thingLike are you gay?
(05:45):
You kind of don't really have achoice to not think about your
sexuality, unfortunately.
I have a question.
Joey (05:51):
Did you question your sexuality when these questions
were being asked, or did you?
Callum (05:54):
just know I did or like did you try and fight?
It, I did yeah, especiallybecause it was like in grade six
was when I first startedgetting like that first hormonal
attraction to people,especially like I had the
biggest crush on my best friendat the time and knew nothing
(06:15):
would ever happen, andespecially because they had such
an extremely homophobic father.
Do they know?
Oh, they know and it's, andthey had that friend of mine.
They had a family who had a lotof kids.
His mom had kids from separatemarriages and they had a family
who, um, they had a lot of kids.
His mom had kids from separatemarriages and he had two older
gay brothers.
It was very obvious the dadawfully accept them.
One of them had hiv um and hadactually, if I remember
(06:38):
correctly, had us actually sincepassed um we've lost touch, me
and my friend over the yearsjust for me moving here.
But I just remember goingthrough that and like feeling so
like excited about having areally close guy friend but
confused about all of the likeattraction and feelings that I
(07:00):
was kind of building at the timeright, while also going through
so much hate from so manypeople at school that I tried to
mask it by dating girls andhaving girlfriends so I was a
bit of a player in middle schoolyeah, I mean test the waters
like you know if, but when youknow, you know, I guess yeah.
(07:22):
I feel bad for the girls at somepart, but at the same time I'm
like none of those relationshipslasted more than six months,
because I was fucking 10, solike dead or dwelled, don't feel
bad.
No, it's funny and we'reactually like remember when I
did come out later, it was soobvious and so accepted and, um,
I'm actually like, yeah, I had.
I was really fortunate in thatI've had um strong family to
(07:46):
support me.
My sister ended up coming outabout five or six years after me
.
Joey (07:52):
Okay, and she's older, love that.
Callum (07:54):
Yeah, so we have quite a gay little family.
Joey (07:57):
Any other siblings?
Callum (07:58):
My half sister, who's nine years older than me.
On my mom's side.
She has a different dad.
Yeah, her and my other sister,my lesbian sister wow, okay, so
and my gay uncle.
We were all actually, uh, whenmy sister and I moved back home
in my interim year betweencoming back here to finish
school, my uncle and my sisterand I were all living in the
(08:20):
house and my mom was sitting atthe dinner table with us.
It was just the four of us andshe's.
It's really quiet and she'sjust chewing and she goes.
When the fuck did I become theminority in my own home?
Joey (08:31):
my mom said the same thing this Christmas.
When I went home, my youngerbrother's gay, yeah, and his
partner was there and me andCatlin were there, and then my
dad was at the table and my momwas there and she went wow, it's
like it's more of a man's housenow, but not many grandkids
gonna be here I just rememberthe interaction between kids
(08:55):
being so much more ruthless andlike coming from california in a
small town uh, there was a lotof shit circulating it was
direct.
It was very direct.
They're direct like jabsthey're not like you know,
someone comments an emoji on apicture and you're like, oh, how
do I interact?
No how do I make of?
What do I make of that emoji?
(09:16):
Is it they mean this, or doesit mean this?
Or could it mean this?
Callum (09:18):
no, this would be like my teacher would leave the room
to go grab a pen or somethingfrom next door and then some
asshole would be like hey,callum, are you gay?
And like ask in front of thewhole class.
Joey (09:26):
And then we would start laughing and it's like that kind
of shit.
Yeah, that literally triggersme.
Callum (09:30):
I'm literally like yeah, let's call my therapist now it
triggers me in a way where I'mlike I, I see myself more as
like a ghost adult in the room,and if I had the pleasure of
just being able to actuallysmack a kid, I probably would,
but like see like I want to turnaround now.
It's like jen is ian and belike you almost trust her god,
there really is no better insultto somebody than to say nice
(09:54):
wig to somebody who's notwearing a wig yeah, literally,
literally, yeah, yeah yeah, butthat's what I mean.
We were saying this earlier,before we started this.
But like having that that quickbanter to shoot shit back at
somebody who's giving sass toyou, like I envy that in you so
much, that like, because Iwasn't like that as a kid, I
would, I was a bit of a shot atan introvert and because when
you're ganged up by so manypeople, it's hard to like really
(10:16):
get a word and edgewise, unlessyou start to finally feel like
you've got either support oreven a crowd.
Joey (10:23):
I hate to say it, but when you're a kid, and it's that
petty and the thing is as wellis like you need like this
sounds awful too, but you need,like the majority of the people
on your side, so like you needto know that what you're saying
is loud enough for everyone tohear, for them to laugh at, to
be on your side enter my bestfriend, evan dean, who came in
and was literally my likesecurity guard.
Callum (10:43):
yeah, she would clap back at any guy who ever said
anything, to the point where sheactually made several boys cry
and it was fantastic.
Joey (10:52):
Good.
Callum (10:53):
And the best part is, I didn't have to say anything.
I just stood there and watched.
Joey (10:56):
My arms folded like a sassy little bitch.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that.
Yeah, tell me about your firstboyfriend when was that?
Or your first boyfriend whenwas that?
Or your first, your firstboyfriend and then, like the
first time, you kind of likestarted going on like dating
apps and like, were youcomfortable?
Callum (11:12):
like oh okay, so here's some tea.
So when I came out, I came outat 13 um and back then that was
a much well, I mean it was abigger deal, even though I knew
it shouldn't have been, becausewhen I was in high school it was
like Prop 8 was really big andObama was running and the
(11:33):
Defense Against the Marriage Actwas like gay rights was
everywhere.
It was like all you reallyheard about in the five years
leading up to that election.
So there was a lot ofconversation circulating, even
amongst students that I grew upwith, because we had a huge
school.
So by the time that I wentthrough everything in middle
school and bullying, it was likekind of about time that I was
just fed up with it all.
And when I finally started tostand up for myself I was like
(11:56):
no, I can do this.
So in high school there was abig club sign up day.
It was a GSA and my sistercaught me in line so she outed
me to my mom technically waitclub sign-up day club sign-up
day was like all the differentcampus clubs um like choir club
and you know whatever which oneare you signing up for?
The gay straight alliance gsa,gsa because you guys don't have
(12:18):
this back home not england,maybe here, I don't know.
I don't know it's so it's verycommon now in, uh, in the states
.
I don't know necessarily aboutCanada, I don't, because I just
didn't go to school here.
I know that I've heard peoplemention it but yeah, like the
gay straight alliance was likeit was basically just like a
support group, like meetinggroup for young kids who
identified as non-straight andit was like fully uh,
(12:41):
non-disclosed.
It was like I remember theteacher was an english teacher,
she was very sweet, um, and itwas mostly just like a room that
, like kids could feel safe tojust hang out and during breaks
and stuff, right okay and liketalk about their experiences.
But I went and I actually it'sfunny I felt like walking in
(13:01):
there was only five peoplesitting there um five people
you're like and I'm pretty surethere may have only been one
other queer person there, otherthan me wait what so it was like
clearly them and their friendsthat started the group, which is
great.
I love that love.
You know, support your buddies,but I remember leaving and
(13:22):
being like I don't think I'mgonna get anything out of this
instantly.
The straight friends were likeyou and him are gonna fuck well,
and then there was also likebecause when I came out,
everybody knew me it was alreadysuch a huge deal I made.
Going through the end of thebullying process was like very
publicized on how it all ended.
So when I finally took a stancefor myself and came out, it was
(13:45):
like I was the youngest personever in my hometown to come out.
Most people waited until afterhigh school or their senior year
, so it really spread aroundlike a different conversation
about I just tried to be reallyactive on how to like prevent
bullying on campuses and likeworked with the administrations
(14:06):
at both my middle school and myhigh school to like be tougher
on bullying and it actuallysurprisingly worked.
Like they did actually make afew changes, which was great,
yeah, but it was.
I mean to go back to yourquestion.
I know this seems kind of long,but when I came out, what ended
up happening was people wereasking me for advice a lot,
because MySpace was juststarting to be a thing and
(14:28):
people were finding me onlineand from other towns like other
like kids from different highschools were finding me and
asking me about my experience,about your gay Jesus of
California, I guess.
I don't know but then you'reyoung and I was 13 and I was
like well, maybe I'll just be anadvice columnist and I'm just
going to.
You know, I have a MySpace nowand a blog, so maybe I can just
do that.
Joey (14:48):
Little Miss Carrie Bradshaw.
Callum (14:49):
Cut to meeting my first boyfriend.
Joey (14:52):
Okay, he was.
How old were you?
Callum (14:55):
I had just turned 14.
Joey (14:57):
Okay.
Callum (14:57):
He was 12, going on 13.
Oh, he went to the same middleschool as me and remembered me
and me being terrible with namesand faces.
I just was like, okay, sure.
And then basically whathappened was he asked me about
advice on how to come out to hisfamily, um, and so I asked him.
I was like, well, I was likeI'll fully disclose.
(15:18):
Like my family was verysupportive and I didn't really
have much of a fight, so I can't, like I can't fully give you
advice, I can just try to besupportive for you.
And then we actually becamereally good friends online and
it became an ongoing kind ofconversation over a few months
about like how did you know, youknow, have you ever been on?
Like what have you seen online?
(15:39):
Like you start asking more ofthose questions in a way that
for me was also the first timethat I had had a real one on one
with somebody my own age, kindof struggling through all of
that.
That wasn't like a completestranger from someplace else,
(16:00):
but was actually like in myhometown, relatively close by.
And then over a while we justwe decided to meet up.
We like walked and hung out atthe school playground and it
very quickly was like very, veryinfatuated love, um, and we had
a lot of really greatexperiences.
I think that when I look backto it, um, um, we're really
special.
We dated all throughout highschool.
Joey (16:21):
Wow, you were together for how long.
Callum (16:24):
It was.
I mean, we were on and off acouple times just for different
reasons, but you know, you'reyoung, but it was in total about
six years.
Joey (16:34):
Wow, high school sweethearts.
Callum (16:37):
It was really great.
He's a sweetheart and we'reactually.
We reconnected a couple yearsago and he's with his partner
out new york now and he's doingreally well so, yeah, you're in
an open relationship.
Joey (16:48):
Why do you think people get into open relationships over
monogamy?
Like what, what, like, okay,what is?
Obviously you can only talkabout your experience, like your
reasoning but like yeah, talkto me about your reasoning like
what?
What does it?
How does it benefit yourrelationship to be
non-monogamous?
Callum (17:07):
well, yeah, I mean, this is exactly what you said.
This is one of those topicsthat, like, you can really only
base your experience on, unlessyou feel like there's enough of
a reach from like my.
My wider social network hasbeen expanded now with my
partner because he is a reallysolid group of gay friends and
most of them are in openrelationships for different
reasons.
Ultimately it boils down to thelike the need for sexual
(17:31):
contact and sexual experienceright, but for us it was more so
defined in that, like, oursexual roles are defined in our
relationship.
So he's a top and I'm a bottom,um, and I'm fine with that.
We're both totally happy withthat.
But since him and my previouspartner, um, I had like a, I
(17:52):
went almost four years withoutdating anybody seriously, which
was a huge period for me anddefinitely like dipped back into
the dating pool, yeah, buttried to like switch the
reversal those roles up fromwhat they've always been and
felt like you mean you being abottom?
like I wanted to try toppingmore and um actually like just
(18:16):
cast myself into in a wider netof like sexual experiences.
I was really struggling withsex in the previous relationship
and it was a big issue for us,um that I think just having a
period of experimentation andthen going into a new
relationship it does form adifferent um like set of
expectations for yourself, evenUm and me and my partner.
(18:40):
Now we have such clearcommunication about what we want
for ourselves and for eachother that it was actually a
pretty straightforwardconversation about me saying
that you know, I would like tobe able to meet up and have
friends and and like have morecasual experiences with people
(19:02):
where I can explore that, and itwas a no-brainer for him.
He was, like if that's what youwant to do, then we would have
to do this because, like thereit wouldn't work any other way.
You would the the sexualfrustration does eventually
catch up with you, right, if inthe back of your mind, you're
thinking that you're lackingsomething in your current
relationship and us.
It was a great opportunitybecause I was really looking to
(19:25):
not have a heteronormativerelationship like I have had in
the past I think in all myprevious last relationships it
was always with this intentionof like life partner working
towards all the same things thatstraight people do and like
really put a lot of pressure onmyself that ends up bubbling
into the relationship and ontothe other person that I knew I
(19:48):
didn't want to get involved inthis time and like took the last
four, like previous years tounderstand um, and it's been
going great for us.
I mean, I think, the time thatwe're living in now with
obviously like prep and doxy andthere's all these new programs
out there that are great formen's health, but it does
(20:09):
increase your chances so muchmore knowing that there are so
many people in openrelationships who are just
completely on their own rules.
So it's a little trickynavigating.
In terms of like we don't havemany rules in our relationship.
We can pretty much have sexwith whoever we want, whenever
we want, as long as we're stillprioritizing us number one.
(20:31):
So like we don't have sex withmore people in a week than we
would with each other, unlessit's just, you know,
circumstantial or something Like.
We wouldn't be upset about it.
But if we haven't had contactwith each other for weeks and
we've both been other people,that would be problematic.
He was really great at lettingme set up what I thought the
(20:53):
rules would be or ask me what Ithought I would want when we
first decided, because it was myfirst relationship.
He wanted to give me that powerand I told him I was like I
think it's actually best for meas a first timer to not have
many rules, because I know whatwould be key triggers in terms
of like jealousy.
Like if you meet somebody elseand there's infatuation and then
(21:13):
you fall in love and that's adifferent relationship forming.
But if it's just about sex andwe can keep sex non-jealous and
separate from our relationship,then we have nothing to worry
about.
Joey (21:24):
So do you worry that, going to the jealousy part part,
do you worry that you will meetup with someone and like form
feelings like, does that everlike cross?
Callum (21:36):
your mind it did.
That was the.
That was kind of.
My big question to him was andagain we've talked about this in
the sense where this is reallymore of like I was coming from
such a place of insecurity, um,within myself.
But when I asked him you knowmy fear would be is that what if
we do realize I'm not the rightperson?
(21:57):
or we realize in you know, sixmonths to a year or however long
we're going to be together,that you know you end up meeting
somebody that you have betterchemistry with, or the sex is
better, or you have acombination of all these things
that you actually didn't realizeyou weren't having here, quite
(22:20):
honestly, was like the pill Iswallowed to clear my sense of
jealousy in this situation,which is that, like things like
that happen, whether you're inan open relationship or not, all
the time right, people meetpeople, they fall in love.
You know they get really, evenif they don't fall in love or if
they don't cheat necessarily,you can form a connection with
(22:42):
people all the time, and if thewhole point of being ethically
non-monogamous is to allow yourpartner to have full support for
any of the decisions that theywant, then you can't.
And again, this is maybe why Ididn't have many rules on ours,
but it's why you can't allowthat pressure to bring you down,
(23:05):
because it's really ultimatelyyour choice how you feel about
the situation, but you do haveto follow like what feels right
for you Right.
So again, like this would notbe the right approach for
everybody.
I think that most people do havevery hard lined rules about
either like time and place, likenever, never in our bed, or
(23:25):
those sorts of things.
I just find that's where for us, I didn't want to set things up
to be a problem later.
Sometimes you have to.
Sometimes it's just easier tohost than it is to travel that
sort of stuff.
So I didn't want to get intothe nitty-gritties, I just
wanted us to make sure thatwe're still prioritizing
ourselves first and we are good.
Joey (23:46):
Well, I'm glad it works for you.
Right, like if that's what youdecide, you and your partner
need and want.
See it as a healthy option.
And that's it works for you,right, right like.
I think the reason I wanted tokind of exploit it and talk
about it today was more so justbecause I feel there's a huge
(24:07):
stigma behind open relationshipsbeing too commonplace, or and
also just like really gayforward, like why are they not,
like I'm like monogamous, why ismonogamy like uh, like a
straight term, like you knowwhat I mean?
like why in the wirenon-monogamous relationships
more queer?
Callum (24:26):
based.
See well, and that for methat's problematic because I
think non-monogamy is, hasalways been there.
It's really just religion andhistory that tried to tamp that
down, I guess.
Joey (24:37):
So yeah, and I feel like, also like getting into it now, I
feel like I see it more as likeblack and white, like a lot of
people cheat and marriages endbecause they believe that they
should be married by their 22 orthey think it's the numbers on
it are.
Callum (24:51):
I don't want to make up a random quote on a number here,
but it does happen in amajority of relationships where
there is one person who ends upstepping outside of the bounds
of their relationship, right?
So at least just having theacceptability of something
happening.
I mean, like I've watchedreally great relationships fail
because cheating is just like ahard no and like, for me, that
(25:16):
level of forgiveness is you'retorturing yourself your whole
life If I think, if you allowsomebody else's actions to
dictate where you're at withyourself, I just find that to be
something that doesn't work forme.
So it's best if we approach itas a partnership.
But the support of what we wantis, you know, ever expanding
(25:39):
and it can change at any time,right?
So, like, the only rule we setin place, for example, is that
if at any point we want to takea break, then if one person
wants to, then we will my lastquestion, probably on this.
Joey (25:52):
I'm going to get into theoretical situations, but is
your opinions on umnon-monogamous relationships,
being queer, focused and likethe stereotypical social norms
behind that being slut or like?
Callum (26:15):
Oh, I mean I'm not a slut shamer in any sense of the
word.
Okay, I mean especially in thelast five years.
I mean especially in the lastfive years, but I do think that
again, I mean this is where theethical non-monogamy thing comes
in is that I'm not particularlyone to just want to fucking
(26:37):
leave.
I do like having a connectionwith somebody.
I like there to be a bit morepassionate and a bit more longer
sessions and all that kind ofstuff.
And if we can have arelationship where it's casual
and it's like a bit more of asituationship, that's even
better.
Because for me and this istotally a personal thing, but
like being an outsider in a city, even as long as I've been here
(26:58):
I love meeting people and Ilove being somebody who's kind
of a social butterfly betweendifferent groups.
Joey (27:03):
Right.
Callum (27:04):
So because it's such a small city that you bump into
people all the time and I wouldrather be more comfortable
knowing more people than shyaway from it and keep everything
locked away and private andseparate.
So, like I tend to be withpeople who are more than happy
to have this, be more than oneexperience, and understand that,
like my partner, where we're atand everything's great in terms
(27:26):
of, like, the interpretation ofit or the perception of
non-monogamy as, like thisidentifier now within the queer
community, I don't think it'snecessarily something to back
away from, but I do think orlike to be ashamed of or I don't
think there's anything wrongwith it.
I would actually encourage theopposite and say, like I guess
(27:49):
the idea is that, like obviouslyyou're for it.
Yeah, I guess.
Joey (27:53):
Like that's obvious, that you, it works for you and, like
you know, and obviously giventhe type of person, whether it
works for them or not, how doyou react?
I guess in the response of morehetero normative people yeah,
is that the right word?
Callum (28:13):
are you asking like what is their?
How do I feel about theirinterpretation of correct?
Joey (28:17):
yeah, considering like it's, it's more so
stereotypically it's.
Callum (28:21):
I guess that's why I'm struggling a little bit with the
question because it does feellike it's.
I have to go in with theimpression of I'm assuming
they're coming at it from a sidethat I can't really assume.
Joey (28:32):
Okay, I'm going to give you an example, a theoretical
example.
Callum (28:35):
Okay.
Joey (28:35):
I'm a co-worker of yours.
Mm-hmm.
Female Mm-hmm.
And you say oh yeah, yeah, I'min a real open relationship.
And then they go oh well, ohyeah, this has happened all the
time.
Well, why, and like how couldyou ever sleep with somebody
else that's not your partner?
Like, like, tell me yourresponse.
Callum (28:54):
Like, let's play this out, okay.
So I we've actually had I havehad at least 20 female
co-workers that we've workedwith asked me this question.
Joey (29:00):
I don't want to say it's always women, because I don't
want to say that, because Idon't know.
Callum (29:04):
But I feel like women ask more about relationships
than men do.
That's why, honestly, I thinkit's I think it's the
competition aspect of it.
I don't feel in competitionwith other men.
I think, in the same sense thata lot of straight women do with
like each other.
Joey (29:18):
But do you worry, though, that your partner would find
someone that potentially likethat that competition aspect and
was like oh, like but again,that's what I said earlier is
that like that could happen,whether we're open or not?
Callum (29:31):
So I mean if, if we were in a close relationship and one
of us was traveling all thetime and I guess, so you know
what I mean.
Like there's, there's so manycircumstances.
Joey (29:39):
Yeah.
Callum (29:46):
Straight people.
There's so many circumstancesthat straight people experience
all the time, and that's what Imean is it's like I think it's
more detrimental to be thatrigid.
I think that the rigidity ofthe heteronormative aspect, of
just being monogamous, issomething that queer people have
advantage of, because obviouslysocietal pressures against us
aren't forever, but it justallows us to be able to write
our own rules and and define ourrelationships however we want,
(30:07):
because I mean, especially frommy experience being open, I've
met so many different types ofpeople I would never have
normally met, and sharing thosemore intimate experiences before
and after we sleep together,sometimes that you know I'll
stay over.
Sometimes we'll have breakfastin the morning or go for a
coffee or whatever, or hang outand watch a movie.
There's so many different waysthat it's not just about sex.
(30:33):
And it doesn't threaten therelationship at all.
Joey (30:35):
Yeah, it's connection.
It's connection, and I thinkqueer men really seek that out
as a necessity more thanstraight people do in this
theoretical situation, thisperson might see it as a threat
because you might have astronger connection with the
person that you just met versusyour partner that's at home and
(30:58):
like, given the openrelationship that allows and
opens the floodgate for you tomeet and potentially get a new
connection with someone that isstronger and better, it's the
fear, I think it's the fearaspect of like you might find
someone better or morecompatible with and the partner
is allowing that to happen.
Callum (31:20):
So again, I mean that fear is in.
Realistically, that's in anyrelationship.
100, yeah, you know, I just Iguess I understand the
perspective of like if you'reopen, you're increasing the
chances of them having moredistractions and more
opportunity to find new love orwhatever, and maybe that's true,
but I guess the the reality isI don't want my partner to feel
(31:47):
like they're ever trapped in arelationship and, after going
through so many relationships inmy life and some ended great
and some ended horribly ifsomebody did actually meet
somebody, if my partner metsomebody they really wanted to
like, leave me for yeah I thinkthat that would be such a.
It would obviously be adevastation, but I think there's
(32:10):
a huge part of me now who wouldaccept that, like that's a part
of life and that is the risk oftaking it if you're going to be
open and like willinglyentering into having those
intimate moments with otherpeople.
But I can.
I think it's still one of themost powerful things that you
can experience, um to releasethat fear and release that
(32:35):
jealousy right like well, you'vehad nights where we're both
with people, and at thebeginning it was a little harder
for me to like sit there andimagine him with somebody else.
I think that's ultimately whatthe hardest part is for most
people, right?
is like sense you know, like Iknow, that for him he's it means
nothing, and like he's more theperson that gets jealous of
situations like professionally,or comparing yourself to
(32:58):
somebody who's, like you know,excelling more in other areas.
Sex and relationships is justnot something that he gets
jealous in for me.
It took me a minute to get usedto, but then the more I sat
with it and the more I engagedin it, the easier it was for me
to let go, because it's it's.
You realize how silly it is,like I know he's not over there
worrying about me or imaginingme falling in love with somebody
(33:20):
.
I think that ultimately, if youreally think that that's the
biggest threat in therelationship, then and like that
, it's bound to happen.
It probably will.
And I don't think the monogamyor non-monogamy aspect of it is
necessarily the cincher.
I think it's just maladies anda disconnection.
So rather than so.
(33:41):
That's why, for me, I'm like ifit ends, it's probably for the
best it's almost like aninsecurity currently within you
or the relationship and so, andlike my partner, are more
supportive of each other inother ways, like we don't put
pressure on finances on eachother and think of it
necessarily even as like ourmoney per se, because it's like
(34:02):
we're independent people andwe're here to support each other
as independent people andbecome, be companions, be
partners, be, you know,companionship for us, I think is
is the biggest thing, that'swhat really gets you through
life and your relationship, andif you don't have that, it's
probably doomed from the start.
Anyway, thanks for chattingwith that.
Joey (34:20):
I feel that's a not so many have the same outlook as
you and I and I and I reallyunderstand more after listening
to what you said and like now,like the purpose of your open
relationship and how it worksfor you and it might not work
(34:42):
for others, you know, and Idon't think it would work for me
and my partner and I'm happy ina monogamy relationship,
monogamous relationship with mypartner, but if it works for you
, I, you should be doing it.
You know what I mean.
Callum (34:52):
Like I don't understand.
Joey (34:53):
Like there's no harm in trying something and I think
this is again societal normstrap people, yeah, and they make
people, you know, shy away fromsomething because they're like,
oh, that makes them a slut,because they're.
They have a partner back homeand they're sleeping with all
these other people, or you knowwhat's if they fall in love with
their, their person having sexwith or the person having
(35:16):
breakfast with or isn't it crazy?
Callum (35:17):
I mean that what you're really saying is like we so many
of our expectations that wehave on relationships really are
just what we're comparing to beother people's expectations for
what they want, and I feel likethat's so the last thing you
need to be thinking about inyour own relationship with your
partner like you said before,again, a relationship is defined
socially or likestereotypically, by religion.
Joey (35:39):
Like what is marriage?
Marriage is like a union ofpartners coming together in the
church in the church of god.
Yeah right, like you know beingmarried, and like I've had this
conversation with my boyfriend,I'm like you know, if we ever
get married, like what does thatmean?
Callum (35:55):
like, are we?
getting married nowadays justbecause we want to get married,
because we feel like that's theright thing in the next step,
well and see that I think isactually going to be something I
was thinking about when I wason my way over here because I
had a feeling we'd get on thison this topic.
But I think if I had stayed inCalifornia, my approach would be
my approach at least on themarriage thing would be
(36:15):
different, because the healthcare system is different.
There are, there are like veryreal legal reasons why I
understand people in the queercommunity desperately want and
need to be married.
Um, we'd explain that I don't.
I don't know what that is likeif something were to happen to
your partner and they're in ahospital.
I mean, it wasn't that long agothat, like, unless you were
their immediate kin, youwouldn't be able to have access
(36:37):
to any decision making.
You know, before marriage waslegalized Like common law,
protection for queer people inthe US was not the same level of
protection that it is here.
I think that, like common lawhas been institutionalized a lot
longer in Canada, like commonlaw is has been
institutionalized a lot longerin Canada, so there's less worry
about those major circumstancesthat I think in the States.
(36:59):
I would be a bit more um.
I would understand why peopleare are are motivated to seek
out marriage.
Joey (37:05):
Right, I think that for for the legal protection
purposes.
Callum (37:10):
I would do it, but in terms of, like the big fucking
thing and the-.
Joey (37:15):
And the dress you're going to wear.
Callum (37:17):
And the thank yous and the the gifts Fuck off.
I don't want to do that.
Like my partner and I jokeabout having a surprise wedding
where we just tell people we'rehaving a barbecue and you can't
not come.
Joey (37:28):
Oh my God, I would love to go.
You know what I mean and like.
If I get an invitation from abarbecue at all anytime soon or
in the future, you better knowI'm dropping everything.
Oh my god, it's the best.
I'm going to show it with arack of ribs and, like Knowing
that it's a wedding, I'm goingto be like oh, I got the ribs.
Who's got the brisket?
Callum (37:46):
The reality of what I was still there, whereas now
that I've been here as long as Ihave and I've experienced my
relationships and I'm in therelationship I'm in now we've
talked about what actually feelsmore aligned to the idea of
(38:07):
marriage to us.
If we were to try to define it,for us is a celebration of your
life together.
Were to try to define it for usis a celebration of your life
together.
So, rather than making aproposal that our life is going
to be this way, why notcelebrate that it already has
been and it will continue to bethis way?
So, rather than getting marriedafter knowing each other for
six months or two years, likewhy not be together?
(38:30):
And then, maybe 10 years later,you celebrate that you've been
together for 10 years and, likeyou know, it's like a
post-celebration of how real thetestament of your love is, that
way you're not constantlyliving up to this expectation
that it has to be up here and ifit doesn't, the marriage fails.
(38:51):
That's the kind of trickle downissue that I have with
monogamous relationships.
For myself is that, more oftenthan not, I've realized that one
person's expectations arehigher than the others, or
people will feel like they'reconstantly going back and forth
and not leveling with each other, and I find that or at least I
(39:14):
found in this relationship it'seasier for us to just be really
open about everything and nothide how we're feeling or what
we're going through.
Um, granted, like we both don'twant to hear the other person
just whine and complain andbitch all the time, but like you
know, that's a part of itthat's just a part of it.
That's a relationship, so you doit and you love them anyway
(39:36):
yeah, but or you just drown themout while they're talking yeah,
that too yeah, you know, I'mlike just mute your phone while
you're scrolling it's fine, yeah, um no, but I just think that
it's you.
The rules rules of engagementare totally definable and are
allowed to change fromrelationship to relationship.
(39:57):
Because you change fromrelationship to relationship.
Joey (40:00):
And also, as you grow older, you change.
We're never the same person.
We're always growing.
We're always changing.
Callum (40:06):
This is why it's crazy to me.
Joey (40:07):
Societal norms are changing, everything is changing
and we are adapting as humans.
Callum (40:13):
It's crazier to me to watch people who just
consistently get remarried intheir life, like you've had five
or six marriages, like I don'tthink the wedding and the and
and the aspect of being marriedis the thing that but they see
it as purposeful like I know, wedon't, and like neither did the
four husbands that she had, oror they had.
(40:34):
I'm sure she sees it as apurposeful.
She's getting fucking alimonyfrom all of them.
Joey (40:40):
I just I think it's just become something that.
And going back to my originalstatement, obviously marriage is
stemmed from religion and Idon't know whether I see myself
like stood in a church, like forsomeone reading like a script
from, like a bible or whatever,or whatever they do, and they're
(41:02):
, like you know, versus johnchapter.
Callum (41:05):
Oh my god, have you ever been to like a really religious
wedding?
No, my cousins.
I love my cousins.
They're so sweet, but but on mymom's side we're Jewish and
they're born-again Christian.
Joey (41:18):
They're born-again Christian.
Yeah so what does that mean?
Callum (41:21):
They're like super Christian.
Joey (41:22):
But they're Jewish.
Callum (41:25):
Culturally our background is like Hasidic Jew.
It's like our heritage.
We have a group of people inour family that's extended who
look and sound so Jewish buttheir faith is so Christian and
I love them.
They have like hearts of gold.
I mean they've really taken allof the beautiful aspects of
religion and applied it.
But I just remember theirwedding was like so heavy, heavy
(41:49):
in scripture that like, if youdo like it was like the game
Punch Buggy, when you see like aVolkswagen beetle and you like
punch somebody and you're doinga road trip or something.
I felt like I wanted to do thatevery time they said Jesus.
Joey (42:01):
Yeah, or take a shot.
Yeah, exactly I would havewasted and then kicked out.
Callum (42:05):
But um, it's just funny, like I don't know.
Like their rules work for themand that's great, but like I,
just the thought of gettingtrapped in all that lifestyle it
seems like a trap.
I don't have time for it.
No.
Joey (42:20):
Too busy.
I think that's all I have onopen relationships.
Great, but no, seriously.
Thank you for sharing.
Yeah, because I know it canfeel like targeted and like I
don't.
It doesn't want.
Callum (42:34):
I don't want to come across that way, no if anything,
I I would never interpret itthat way.
I mean, I'm so open aboutrelationships, not, you know,
just as a conversation.
So for me it's like, ifanything anybody listening to
this here's this and has thoughtabout it, and even if it's just
like in the back of your mindand you're in a relationship and
(42:54):
you love this person, butsomething doesn't feel right, or
you you feel like, not justlike you're having a wandering
eye and those sorts of things,those are different signs of
different problems in arelationship that are specific
to that.
This is, I think, the mostnumber one reason why people go
into it is because they knowthat there are larger
experiences that extend outsideof their relationship that their
(43:18):
relationship can't fulfill.
That it's, yeah, they, theyknow that it can't fulfill and
it's not detrimental to ruiningthe relationship to explore
those, those experiences.
Joey (43:27):
It actually enhances them and if it was detrimental, you
need to look at other options,like potentially like leaving
the relationship and pursuingsomething else, or looking for
something else.
Callum (43:37):
Right, yeah and like again define your own rules,
guys, like for us.
The only other rule that wehave it's not really a rule,
it's just a preference is likewe don't really play together
because my partner is not reallyinto group play.
Right into group play, right?
Um, I am, but I don'texperience those situations all
(43:57):
the time for risk purposes andwhatever.
And I want to make sure that,again, like it's with people
that I've either encounteredsomething with or and I can I
know that the connection isgoing to be there, because who
wants to go into a fucking, youknow, group situation and
somebody's stressed and can'tfigure it out?
So yeah you.
That's what I mean.
Like you go through these thingsand you test, try stuff, and
you can do that in a way thatyou could do when you're single,
(44:19):
sure, but if you have thesupport of a partner who, like
mine, you can talk about thoseexperiences with after and in
group settings and like we'revery open with who we've slept
with, since we've been togetherwith our friends and our friends
are like that with us, it justyou realize how quickly these
walls fall, fall down and likeit becomes this other thing that
(44:40):
yes, at the beginning somephases for some people you can
get caught up in it and thenpush it a little too much.
But that's where you set thoserules at your own pace, you can
figure it out and then you canfind what makes you
uncomfortable and notuncomfortable.
So if you find out in the endthat it's actually not what you
want and you are too jealous oryou are too stressed out
thinking about them spending toomuch time with other people,
(45:02):
you've got to reevaluate thingsin the relationship.
So for me it's like it actuallypresents the opportunity for us
to check in with each othermore, where I think other people
just let resentments build andbuild and build and before, and
you've already destroyed therelationship before you haven't
even had the chance to recognizeit yeah, so I have a
theoretical situation.
Joey (45:23):
are you ready for this one ?
And I'm curious on yourresponse now.
But just because, stemming fromyour situation, so you're in an
open relationship and then yourex is single, but they fly into
town, you see them on socialmedia and this ex we're going to
(45:44):
talk about like your personalex, because my high school
partner and I have actuallyalready talked about doing that.
Callum (45:50):
Okay, since we've reconnected, we've definitely
shared some pics and had somekinky times, and he's invited me
to new york.
Oh no, we know what happened.
We had fantastic sex when wewere younger, yeah you know.
Joey (46:01):
You also know each other's bodies and stuff, but so
there's no limitation there toyour partner your partner's not
gonna be like uh, you're gonnago fuck your ex that you were in
love with for seven years, orsee, that's what's funny, I
guess, I see me inside screaming.
Callum (46:18):
I see how that presents is like extremely problematic
and threatening to therelationship.
If you were to allow yourpartner to go and sleep with
their ex in any other situationit would be a huge red flag.
But like the reality is, atleast for this situation, me and
my ex are both in committednon-monogamous or ethical
(46:38):
non-monogamous relationships, sofor us to be able to go and
experience this together, whoknows what could happen.
Like I flew back out to sanfrancisco a couple years ago to
for sf pride and he was nolonger living in san francisco
because him and his partnermoved to new york.
They moved to it.
Well, actually they living insan francisco because him and
his partner moved to new york.
They moved to it.
Well, actually they moved fromsan francisco to miami and
bought a house in miami and thenmoved from miami and now live
(47:00):
in brooklyn and his partner ownsa place in sf and miami.
Joey (47:04):
So they're so he's rich.
Callum (47:05):
They're doing very well yeah I'm like he's not gonna
leave his rich ass boyfriend formy broke ass because I'm still
serving, so we don't have toworry about that.
Joey (47:13):
Serving more than just tables.
Callum (47:15):
Honey, he's got the 401k .
Joey (47:19):
He's got those good benefits.
Callum (47:21):
I have like 400 orders from McDonald's that you can
access anytime.
No, I just think that like thatwould be a really great, almost
new experience of likereconnecting with somebody that
I haven't seen after almost adecade now, who we had almost a
decade strong relationship with,where we're both in different
(47:42):
places and we've both accepted,you know, the faults of our past
, like who that would be a.
To me that sounds like abeautiful thing to re-experience
, because who knows how awkwardit would be or how
instantaneously like it's rightback where we were.
But for me I don't think itwould be like a.
I don't think it's the the, theromance, fantasy of like
(48:07):
getting sucked back into thisgreat burning love that I had
with.
I think people watch too manymovies to actually experience
that that's me but you know whatI mean.
That's what I mean like peopleset these expectations up in
these fantasies in their headand these, like they play things
out, these play thesenarratives out in their mind
about what could happen and youactually don't know.
Joey (48:28):
They also set an expectation that that's going to
happen too.
They're like, oh, we're like,we're gonna meet up and it's
gonna be this, this, this, this,this, and it's not right, like
that's.
Another thing is that, like,they expect this rekindling and
this like re-ignition of, likespark or something potentially
like in your situation.
If you were to hook up withyour ex, your partner, okay,
(48:51):
giving your situation, no, but,like in my situation, I would be
like, um, my partner's gonnafucking have sex with his ex
partner and then leave me.
You know, like you, you createthis narrative, like you said,
in this expectation, and maybethat's wrong of us to do that
and, yeah, I don't know I thinkpart of it, too, is you set the
(49:12):
experience you're gonna have.
Callum (49:13):
So if your expectations are too high and you're going
into it, you're stressing and inthe background you're behaving
or acting on things that arefloating around the back of your
head that either you don'tactually want to be doing or
that, or vice versa, like I justI just think we have more fun
as queer people and we don'thave to put as many rules on
ourselves.
I'm like yeah, I just think wehave more fun as queer people
and we don't have to put as manyrules on ourselves.
(49:34):
And like, yeah, just live inthe moment and figure it out.
You know there's no harm intrying something and if you
realize that it was horrible andyou hated it like a bad grinder
hookup, sometimes thoseexpectations are really high too
, and you meet them and you'relike oh, yikes.
Yeah, you're like oh, and I'mlike yikes oh, I didn't realize,
(49:55):
you're not you like I didn'trealize you had yeah years I
didn't realize we were stillusing our high school photos.
Joey (50:05):
I didn't realize that while I drove here um you, aged
20 years.
Yeah, you know that's a scaryplace too, grinder.
Callum (50:12):
Sometimes, yeah, a grinder to me is like boring and
a waste of time.
Now, oh.
But I don't use grinders really.
I mean, I do, but not really.
I use sniffies.
Joey (50:25):
Sniffies is.
Callum (50:26):
Sniffies.
Yeah, it's more direct.
Joey (50:28):
What's that?
Callum (50:29):
Oh baby, I'm sorry, wake up and smell the rosebuds
Apparently.
Oh baby, I'm sorry.
Joey (50:34):
Wake up and smell the rosebuds Wait.
Callum (50:38):
Yeah, it's like an online platform, it's not an app
base.
Joey (50:41):
You log in on like your internet provider, well that's
why people don't know what it is, because you've got to go back
in time.
No, but you can do it on yourphone.
I just do it on my phone.
Callum (50:49):
I might work all the time fucking checking it out On
Safari.
Joey (50:56):
It's so funny.
It's basically it's table 90strying to flag you down for a
glass of water.
Callum (50:59):
Oh my god sniffies is literally like replace.
Grinder is like the number one.
Really.
I got that, yeah, because it'sway more direct, and the thing
with grinder is that like I feellike grinder was it was like it
was.
I don't want to say it's myspace of social media it's full
of straight men.
Joey (51:12):
That's what it is.
Callum (51:14):
I've actually found that in a way, I find them.
I see I'm finding more bi andanonymous men on Grindr looking
for very specific things,whereas Sniffies is like either
everybody in the city hasmigrated to it or is using
multiple apps to find specificthings that they're looking for.
Sniffies is really universal.
(51:34):
It's literally just like assand dick pics floating around on
a map and you can look onpeople and message them and
there's like group access points.
There's like little geocachehookup spots all over the city,
like in the gyms and in thesaunas and in the parks and
whatever, so like you can findand locate people and kinks and
where to experience them,basically any time of the day
(51:56):
thanks for being here.
Joey (51:58):
It's been so great yeah, thanks for sharing your
relationship status.
Your view is just kind of likethe dynamic of that, because I
feel like I've learned a lot hey, I've learned a lot in doing it
, so Well, as always, Iappreciate your time and thanks
for being here.
You're always welcome back andremember I'm not gay, you are,
(52:23):
I'm not gay.
Callum (52:34):
Want to suck a dick.
Suck a dick, I don't care.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.