December 18, 2024 • 46 mins
What if a chance encounter at a bar could change your life forever? We welcome Paul Sansom, our delightful guest from the Shetland Islands, who shares their extraordinary love story with his partner, Eloi, spanning from Edinburgh to Vancouver. From unforgettable meetings at iconic bars to heartwarming tales of connection, Paul recounts the serendipitous moments that defined their relationship. As they adjusts to a new life in Canada, Paul provides us with a glimpse into his personal adventures and the charm of navigating love across continents.
Paul’s journey of coming out and self-discovery offers profound insights into embracing one's identity amidst a backdrop of religious upbringing. Join us as Paul opens up about the challenges and victories of accepting their true self, highlighting the support and understanding needed in coming out to family and friends. His narrative is a testament to the strength found in diversity and the importance of celebrating queer experiences. Through humorous and heartfelt stories, Paul inspires us to understand the power of individuality and the significance of representation in discussions on gender and sexual identity.
As we explore broader themes of identity, Paul shares personal reflections on navigating pronouns and challenging societal norms, particularly in the workplace. We discuss the importance of sensitivity and respect in supporting diverse identities while questioning the need for rigid labels. With insightful anecdotes and engaging discussions, this episode encourages listeners to envision a more inclusive world, where gender and sexual orientation are embraced without constraints. Tune in to gain a fresh perspective on authenticity, understanding, and the courage to live truthfully.
Follow the show on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/imnotgayyouarepodcast/
Stay tuned bi weekly (Wednesday) for a new episode from I'm not gay, you are
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joey (00:14):
welcome back to.
I'm not gay.
You are with your host, joey,that is me.
And today we've got someonesuper special, paul.
Paul (00:22):
Hi, it's me, paul it's me, it's me, paul.
Joey (00:26):
Welcome to.
I'm Not Gay, you Are.
Thank you for having me, joey,I'm stoked, I'm super excited to
talk about your life, yourexperiences, what you have to
share with us today.
Get into the nitty gritties, ohyeah all that juicy good stuff.
Okay, so, paul, tell us alittle bit about yourself.
Um, you know how you ended uphere today, um, and what kind of
(00:51):
brought you to.
I'm not gay, you are okay, um,hello, hello, um.
Paul (00:56):
My name is paul sansom.
Um, I am from scotlandoriginally.
I grew up on the shetlandislands there, um I was 18.
Then I moved to the mainland,lived in Dundee, edinburgh, met
myself a Canadian guy there andhe took me over here and that's
how I ended up in Vancouver.
Joey (01:16):
Nice Wait, tell us how you met your Canadian partner.
Paul (01:19):
Okay, so I was living in Edinburgh at the time and I was
on a date with another guyactually and we went to this bar
called the Street in Edinburgh.
It's one of like three gay barsthere.
Shout out the Street.
Joey (01:33):
I might end up going there .
You should yeah.
Paul (01:36):
There's the Street or there's CC Blooms or there's
another one.
The Gay Triangle is what it'scalled.
It's this little like triangle.
The three points, the threelittle points okay at least
that's how it was when I wasthere.
It could have changed, butanyway.
So he was working there and Ijust ordered some wine from him
and he had a cute little what Ithought was a french accent, and
(01:56):
so I was like I like youraccent, like are you from france
?
And he was like oh no, actuallyit's a good guess, but I'm from
quebec that's my impression ofthe french canadian yeah, so I
was like oh, that's cool.
So we chatted a little bit and Iordered a few drinks from him
throughout the night, but Iended up getting very drunk and
me and my date went to anotherbar and left and I forgot about
(02:20):
elwa you know sad, but now lookbut now look exactly.
Yeah, two weeks later werandomly met at a different, the
other gay bar, cc Blooms.
Okay, the end of the night Isaw him there.
Joey (02:31):
He wasn't working.
Paul (02:32):
No, he had gone there after his shift.
Joey (02:33):
Okay.
Paul (02:35):
And so, yeah, I saw him there near the door while me and
my friends were dancing and Iwanted to get up the courage to
go speak to him, but I justdidn't.
And then the lights came on asit closed and he was still there
.
So I was like, okay, now it'smy chance.
And I went over to him and Iwas like hey, and then he looked
at me.
He was speaking to someone elseat the time, but he looked at
me.
I was like oh, hey, it's you orsomething I don't, I can't
(02:57):
remember.
He instantly recognized me andthen we chatted.
And we chatted outside the clubfor like two hours.
There was a guy like sweepingcigarette butts around us as we
were like making out.
It was cutely awkward, um.
Joey (03:11):
And then, yeah, we've spoken every day since and been
together arguably ever since oh,cute, okay, yeah, well, so
sorry, tell me his name one moretime elwa, because it's not's
not, it's, not, it's.
That sounds like a lot ofpronunciation for me.
Paul (03:26):
Yeah, it's.
You can just say Eloi, eloi, Ioften do, it's E-L-O-I, it's,
think of it like the maleversion of Eloise E-L-O-Y,
e-l-o-i.
Joey (03:40):
Oh, okay, eloi, Eloi Okay.
Paul (03:43):
Yeah, with an accent de U on the.
E yeah.
I heard the podcast.
I knew you'd mentioned it wasin the works.
I knew it was happening and thenI listened, after the third
episode had come out, to allthree episodes and I just really
enjoyed it.
I thought it was a really funkind of um, easy listening.
(04:06):
I enjoy, obviously, hearingabout kind of queer topics.
Um, it appeals to me for someweird reason Um, I'm gay, uh, uh
and I just thought, I don'tknow, I I didn't think that
there was anything specific thatI could necessarily bring to it
, but I just wanted toparticipate.
(04:27):
Yeah, I wanted to be a part ofit yeah, I wanted to be a part
of it, I guess so that's fair,um, and you're here.
Joey (04:32):
Yeah, I'm here and you're a part of it exactly done and
we've got lots of questions foryou.
Oh perfect yeah yeah, this is.
This is where you understandyour participation exactly I'm
here.
I'm a vessel um, well, we'rehappier here.
Um, I'm happier here and I'mhappy you reached out to me
because I'm just I'm excitedyeah I feel like everyone comes
(04:56):
on and everyone has their ownkind of like value that they add
, um, and their own likeexperience, their journeys, um.
So it's so nice to have adifferent guest every so often
to just share and bring adifferent topic potentially with
them.
So, as we typically do, we knowa little bit about you now,
paul.
So tell us about your earlyyears, when you came to terms
(05:20):
with who you are.
You know, were you always gayfrom a young age or do you feel
like you've matured into who youare today?
Uh, more recently, um, is thatyou know because of your
upbringing?
Do you reckon that's because ofwho you are like?
Paul (05:35):
talking about your early years, yeah yo yeah, um yeah, my
early years I I think it's oneof those things like looking
back.
Obviously I'm like oh yeah, Iwas.
I was gay.
It was pretty obvious I hadonly female friends growing up.
(05:58):
Um, I found guys and like boysin my school scary and
intimidating.
Not that that means you're gay,but it's it's a, you know.
It's not a no, not a sign thatyou're gay yeah, I mean it could
be an indicator, yeah so, um,but yeah, my parents are, um,
(06:21):
very religious or very spiritual.
I grew up Christian, going tochurch every every Sunday and so
, sorry, just thinking, yeah, Igrew up going to church and I
just I was.
I think I was in denial.
I was in denial for my wholechildhood and it was only when I
(06:43):
was like 18 that I came out.
Actually, no, I must have been20.
It was in 2018.
So I was.
I was 20 when I came out to myparents and my family and I
think I came out to my firstfriend in 2017.
Um, and it took moving toanother continent to have the
(07:06):
space from my family and from mylife.
I think that was what allowedme to kind of accept myself more
in some ways.
Joey (07:14):
I feel that that resonates with me.
I mean my story's differentupbringing, wise and just like
you know, religious views andeverything.
But where we're similar is Ialso moved here from england and
I, when I moved here, I Icalled myself joey, like that
was who I am, even though mylegal name is joe, and every
(07:36):
time I go back home I'm joe.
My mom calls me joe, dad, youknow everyone my boyfriend's
always like, oh, who's this joe?
You know um, and it's just oneletter on my name.
But it really identifies for melike the symbol is symbolism of
like coming out and like who Ican be here and comfortably I
need to bring that person homewith me now, but it was just a
(07:56):
reinvention of myself and likewho I wanted to be and I felt I
could do that when I moved whatage did you move here?
uh, I moved in 2018 okay yeah,so he was here in 2018.
Um, I'd come out to a couplefriends back home um prior, but
I hadn't come out to my parentsor any anyone, just a just a
(08:16):
couple of my close friends.
So when I came here, I was likeI don't have any, like you know
, uh, I guess interlinkingfriends that are gonna like tell
my secret back home and youknow what gets posted online is
kind of like monitored, so likeno one's gonna find out, and I
got to be who I wanted to behere, which is so crazy to say
(08:37):
actually out loud.
You know, like I got to be whoI wanted to be in like a
different environment, yeah, butyeah, so very similar aspect
there.
I just wanted to bring that toattention.
Sorry, carry on.
Paul (08:52):
No, no, I totally, I totally get that, just getting
that space.
But yeah, so then I we were inSingapore at the time I was
studying there for the coursethat I was doing Moved back home
because I decided I didn't wantto do that course and um, and
then I was on the phone to myparents at one point and they
were just saying that they feltlike they were noticing a
(09:12):
distance from me.
In the last couple years I'dbeen very close to them growing
up, more, more close to themgrowing up, and so I just like.
Then it just like came out.
I just started crying, I waslike I don't like girls, they
like guys, I'm gay.
And there was just like I swearlike a minute of silence.
And then they started like theywere like, oh, like, how do you
know I don't.
And then I just ended uphanging up on them and my sister
(09:33):
phoned me a while later andthen I ended up coming out to
her the same night and I have afew siblings, so I came out to
them all over the next coupleweeks um, how did you feel
afterwards?
Joey (09:46):
did you feel relieved, or was it like not immediately
relief, it was more like I thinkit was ultimately a relief.
Paul (09:51):
There was a big emotional release, obviously, as I was
telling my parents, andafterwards I kind of cried to my
sister, for, you know, I feellike it was a few hours, maybe
it was just half an hour, but,um, there was a lot of.
I felt very scared.
I think it's that vulnerability, you know, yeah, like worried
(10:11):
that this would mean they youknow they hadn't had the
reaction that I wanted, but theyhad had a reaction I knew they
would have.
But obviously, you know itwould have been nice to have
like a oh cool, that's awesome.
Yay, uh, cake and fireworks,yeah cake and fireworks.
I would have loved that, but umyou know, I didn't get that and,
as I say, I wasn't expectingthat and it wouldn't be true to
them if they had given me thatreaction.
(10:33):
Um, but there's that moment oflike, oh, you know what, if
these stories that you hearabout people who get like kicked
out not that I was living withthem at the time, but, like you
know, are rejected from theirfamily, but I ultimately knew
deep down that that wasn't thecase, like there's so much love
in my family and from my parents.
(10:55):
But I uh, yeah, those thoughtsare in your head at that time,
as you know, I'm sure totally,yeah it, yeah, it's that.
Joey (11:02):
Uh, it's that scary thought, you know, and and like,
once you've said it, you can'twithdraw it, it doesn't, you
can't just come back from it,Right?
And the questions that theyhave, and you know that, are you
sure or how do you know?
And there was, you can't reallyexpress that Like just know,
(11:24):
right like I just like how doyou know you're not attracted to
women?
Like, how do you explain that?
Paul (11:28):
yeah, like, um, I didn't just decide it, but there's been
hey, there's just been years ofinner turmoil and hating myself
literally fighting this, andwomen don't have dicks yeah,
exactly that's what I said.
Joey (11:40):
That's a big one prior to you coming out, you'd had, did
you?
You never mentioned?
Did you have um any experienceswith men prior?
Paul (11:52):
yeah, I I had.
It's kind of interesting howlike foggy a lot of those
experiences are.
I think I've like suppressedthem or I know I've had a few
before I came out, like inuniversity, which I was in my
second year.
When I came out to them In myfirst year I had downloaded
(12:16):
Grindr before I was even 18 andleft the island that I grew up
on, but there was no one therereally, so I hadn't met up with
anyone there, but I had no one'sdads on Grindr that you
recognize no.
I don't, there was no one.
Joey (12:31):
I had I'm outing them.
Paul (12:35):
No, um, I feel like I had visited my sister in Edinburgh
before I had moved there, and Ihad it then and I had I met up
with a guy.
At that point I must have beenlike maybe like 17 or maybe I
was 18, but I like remembergoing out for like a walk, I
told them, and I met up withthis guy and I think he was like
(12:58):
he must have been like hismid-30s.
He was smoking something that Idon't think was weed and I was
too like shy and awkward to likesay anything about it, and so
we like did stuff, and I don'tknow how much time passed, but
not enough you're like I gotta,I've gotta go.
Yeah, I was like time for me togo, so um.
(13:22):
I remember I um, I didn't knowwhat to say because I just was
like shit, it's been too long.
I looked at my phone.
I had tons of missed calls frommy family because it had been
like, you know, like an hour anda half or something that yeah
for this walk, yeah and so I waslike, oh, I need to go, I have
a family.
He was like what?
Joey (13:38):
you have a family you're like yeah, I'm married, two kids
, literally while you're textingyour mom.
Be like the loch ness monstergot me.
That's what took me so long onmy walk, literally.
Paul (13:49):
So I remember like running home, and they were like, what
are you doing?
Were you doing drugs?
Like I didn't know anyone inthe city.
But I was like no, I just wentfor a walk, I'm sorry, and like
uh, so awkward and weird.
So, yeah, I'd had a fewexperiences and then in in
university, when I was, I wouldget drunk and message people and
go and do stuff, but very, verysuper in the closet.
Joey (14:09):
I had a girlfriend.
Paul (14:12):
Actually, in my first year of university, from when I left
the island, she was on theisland and then, or maybe it was
from around Christmas time.
Anyway, for a little bit, shecame down to visit me.
We, we did stuff when she cameto visit me, um, we had sex,
(14:36):
isn't?
Joey (14:36):
it funny how, like, just looking back on your life and
like who you are today versuswho you were then, like it's so,
like it's not hard to talkabout, but it's so awkward, yeah
, like it's like you don't wantto like, yeah, I, I'm in the
same way.
Yeah.
I feel, like this is validatingwatching you.
I resonate with it, but carryon.
(14:57):
Sorry, no, no, don't apologize.
Paul (15:00):
Yeah, she came to visit and I think, like the whole time
, like it was like oh, if I havea, you know if I get a girl
because she was my firstgirlfriend and I was like my
whole childhood.
It's like if I get a girlfriend, then I'll know, I'm straight,
that's what needs to happen.
I just need to get a girlfriend.
And then I got her as mygirlfriend and I was like, okay,
cool.
And then I was still like,didn't feel 100% right.
(15:20):
But I was like, okay, we justneed to have sex and I'll prove
to myself you might need to holdit closer, prove to myself that
I, um, we, that I'm, that I'mstraight or whatever, um, and
she, yeah, she came to visit mefor a weekend and I knew we were
going to we didn't likeexplicitly say it, but I think I
(15:41):
knew that we were going to bothlike have sex and you're scared
yeah, yeah, it was really scary.
and you know, interestingly, Iactually went to the doctors and
lied that I was struggling tohave sex with my girlfriend and
(16:01):
I couldn't get it up and sheprescribed me Viagra.
And that's why I wanted to getViagra, so that I could have sex
with my girlfriend, because Iwas like this will ensure that.
Joey (16:12):
I was able to get it up, so I remember Were you worried
that you weren't going to beable to?
Paul (16:15):
Yeah, yeah, I was worried.
I think like, yeah, I wasworried about that because
previously in like make outsessions or stuff, I was like
why is nothing happening, likesomething should be happening
here?
Joey (16:27):
and nothing had been.
Paul (16:28):
Yeah, and that stressed me out.
So I was like up until thispoint I've been proven that
nothing's really happened.
So I remember from my brother'sstag do um, we went to a like a
strip club, um, and I got a lapdance and I remember being like
yeah and being like nothing ishappening.
Why?
(16:48):
you're like, like there, thereare titties in my face, there's
a gorgeous woman touching mewith her body and I am very
indifferent, anyway.
So I went to the bathroombefore we had sex, me and my
girlfriend when she came tovisit me and took a Viagra and
obviously it didn't help becauseI didn't know that.
(17:10):
But it turns out Viagra onlyhelps if you are into it.
It's not just like a magic pillwell, actually, I actually
didn't know that yeah, I didn'tknow that either.
But yeah, you have to like, havea want.
There has to be some sort oflike attraction.
It's not, doesn't just like mad, like you can't just be, like
totally zoned out and it's likehard oh, I thought it was like.
Joey (17:28):
I thought it was like medically, like just push the
blood flow into your penis.
Paul (17:33):
It does, it encourages it, but I think there has to be
like.
It's like stimulation, yeah,like, or there just has to like
as in if there's no blood flowgoing there, then it's not going
to do anything, but it's likeif there's a bit of blood flow,
then it'll be a lot of bloodflow, you know, but there was no
blood flow, I think.
I don't know, I'm not ascientist but I think porn stars
do use.
They can do injections.
Joey (17:54):
Oh, okay.
Paul (17:54):
They can inject stuff, and that does make it more like
they have no choice.
It just is.
I didn't know about that, Iwasn't going to inject anything.
Joey (18:04):
That's irrelevant.
Paul (18:05):
I'm just on the topic of that Interesting.
I didn't actually know that.
Yeah, I've never used um viagra.
I feel bad saying it becauseI'm like if she ever listened to
this not that she would, but Imean she knows that I'm gay I
don't think she would hold itagainst me that I tried yeah, no
, I well, I hope not, andobviously I it's difficult to
(18:26):
talk about, but I think what wedo here is, like all for
educational purposes and nothingshould be off the table.
Joey (18:35):
You know, um, obviously with with your consent, but, um,
we all do crazy stuff for thepeople that we think we love, or
, um, you know, to prove who wemight think we are to certain
people right and like this justkind of goes to show that, like
in this situation, you werewilling to take medicine to, to
(18:59):
prove, you know, to yourself, orto your partner, to your
parents and like everybody else,like the social norm, that you
were straight, even thoughthat's not necessarily deep,
deep depth down how you trulyfelt right, yeah, um, yeah, it's
true it is.
Paul (19:16):
That is how deep in it I was, uh.
But after that weekend, I think, that's when the bubble kind of
popped and I was like, okay, Idon't think I can really deny
this anymore.
And then it was later thatsummer that I told my first
friend, and then yada, yada,yada, and then now I'm gay and
I'm open about it.
Um, but I'm still a young gay,I guess you know, yeah, lots to
(19:36):
learn.
I totally believe in the likethe idea that, like you know,
like you're kind of just likeyou know, like gay puberty or
whatever, like I arguably bythis I'm like I'm six years old
in gay years.
Okay, not really I don't knowwhat that means, but I just feel
like I'm still, I still feellike I'm very like you're still
in your twink era yeah, I'mstill like figuring out myself
(19:56):
and like what all this means andgetting to a point of like
self-confidence, I guess, in andcomfortability, you know,
defeating all the likeinternalized homophobia
self-internalized homophobiathanks for sharing that I
appreciate you're very welcome,yeah um, you truly just don't
know someone's story.
Joey (20:16):
You know just by looking at them.
So, um, thanks for opening upand sharing that and, uh, in
your journey with us, umfollowing up, you know from your
early years, um, I kind ofnavigate this question
frequently, um, but do youbelieve being gay is something
that's uh nurtured into us or doyou feel like it's nature's way
(20:37):
of of?
Paul (20:39):
like you were born this way.
Definitely think it's a mix ofboth.
Uh, I don't know yeah, um I, Iheard a fact.
I haven't looked up the studiesmyself, I guess, but the fact
is that um, younger siblings aremore likely to be gay.
Um, yeah, so like, the morechildren someone has, the more
(21:01):
likely that one of theirchildren is that the child is
going to be gay how manysiblings do you have?
I have six.
Oh, I'm the youngest of six sothere's five brothers and
sisters.
Joey (21:11):
Yeah, okay yeah, yeah sorry, that was difficult for my
brain.
Paul (21:13):
I was like, sorry, yeah, I think I said I'm the youngest
of six.
That makes sense.
Yeah, um, so not that, that isnot I'm using that as proof, but
it's um, like, theoretically,the scientists believe that.
Um, in terms of evolution, it'slike the more people there are,
the more people there are, themore people there are in your
family, the more you maybe don'tneed someone who's going to
(21:36):
like continue the genetic line,but you need someone who's going
to be able to provide, like,care and provide you know other
things.
Joey (21:45):
I never thought of that.
Paul (21:46):
That's at least one scientific explanation of this
theory.
Anyway, interesting as I say,I'm not not I haven't read the
studies myself, I just rememberhearing about it and thinking
that that it, that it made sense, um, but I definitely think a
lot of it is nurture as well.
I grew up with three oldersisters and two brothers who
(22:07):
bullied me.
I didn't love my brothers at alot of times though I do now and
my sisters would dress me upand they were big influences on
me.
I remember they had,particularly my older sisters,
evelyn and Sarah.
They had posters or cutoutsfrom magazines of like sexy boys
at the time, like I'm trying toremember, like early 2000s, uh,
(22:32):
was like peter andre on thewall, yeah, like um who's like.
Who's like legolas, who'slegolas?
Oh um, orlando bloom, orlandobloom I remember like a sexy
orlando bloom, maybe like ajohnny depp even, I don't know
just these like sexy posters onthe wall that they had.
Joey (22:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Paul (22:52):
They were like teen girls.
They were, you know, older thanme and I remember seeing them.
I also remember being in lovewith most of their boyfriends,
but again, it's like I didn'tthink of it at the time, but I
remember just like loving themand they were very very, very
(23:13):
like attractive mags.
Joey (23:14):
You know what like eight or nine or whatever, and when
you're a kid.
It's like you're so not subtlebecause you could, you're acting
on what you don't know is like,and you're like, oh, play with
me.
Or like, hang out with me.
And then they're like, leave myboyfriend alone, you little
jerk.
And you're like, oh no, um, Igot a new toy.
Come play with this.
Or you know, and they're likeoh, leave me alone, you little
brat.
Paul (23:33):
Yeah, totally that, so funny so yeah, I guess you know
I was surrounded by thisenvironment and these people who
I looked up to, my sisters.
Mostly they were into guys, soI definitely think that could be
a part of it.
I had all girlfriends.
A few of those girlfriendsturned out to be queer or gay in
their own way, but you know, atthe time most of them were
(23:55):
talking about like boys andstuff like that as well.
So I don't know.
I definitely think it's a mix ofthe two like I ultimately think
that in an ideal and perfectworld there wouldn't really be
gender in the same way that wehave it now and people would
just fall in love with who theyfall in love with.
So I don't know if that wouldever actually come to be, but I
(24:17):
just mean theoretically likethere's just people existing.
Different people have differentgender expression, how they
look, they have differentgenitalia and they're into
different things, but theywouldn't categorize themselves
as like straight or gay oranything.
It's just people are into,people that they're into.
I think in my head that's theideal world that we're headed
(24:38):
towards.
Whether we actually do, I don'tthink.
Joey (24:40):
I don't know, but like why do we need to identify as male
or female?
Yeah, like why, like you knowor or anything else you know
when we're born, why is it likewe get one gender as like, male
or female?
Yeah right, like what's why?
What's the purpose?
Exactly it doesn't.
And like when you're fillingout your passport, why do I need
(25:00):
to click male or female?
Paul (25:01):
yeah, I don't get it.
I'm like why do you need to?
Joey (25:04):
know that, for me to board an airplane, yeah, like you've
already got my fingerprints, myretina and my, my photo, my
photo.
What else do you need?
Paul (25:11):
And then you need me to be like oh, my gender, yeah it's
dumb and it's like a lot ofhoops to jump through, like if
you know a trans person who'sgoing through their journey,
like to be able to change theiridentification, and stuff like
that.
It's like a long process and Idon't know they might be at
different stages of how theykind of are expressing
(25:33):
themselves and I I know peoplewho have like encountered issues
when, like traveling and stuff,when they how they have looked
hasn't matched what it says onor even how it looks on their id
, but they haven't been able tochange it.
Oh no, it's tough, yeah, Ithink.
Oh no it's dumb.
Joey (25:48):
It's dumb.
We've become something so bigand I feel like we've come so
far as like a queer communityand but no longer, I guess, like
the interface of like the world.
It's not really like lining upanymore.
I feel like I don't want to getinto politics.
That's not what.
That's really not what I wantto talk about.
I think you'd be good inpolitics.
Paul (26:09):
I don't, I don't know.
Joey (26:17):
I.
That's really not what I wantto talk about.
I think you'd be good inpolitics.
I don't.
I don't know, I have too muchto say, um, but I feel that the
politicians we have and theleaders that we have don't align
with queer community but Idon't necessarily think that any
of them are queer so they can'ttalk on behalf of a community
that they don't align with.
Paul (26:33):
Yeah, right?
No, I totally think so.
Or there are queer ones, queerpeople and there's probably a
lot of them that are in thecloset and feel like if they
come out as queer, that theywould yeah, exactly.
Joey (26:44):
Anyways, yeah, no more politics, no more politics.
This kind of points us into, Iguess organically into my next
questions for you.
So, um, I want to addresspronouns and how do we educate
and how do we support thelisteners um to feel comfortable
(27:09):
to address someone withoutknowing their pronouns Like?
Paul (27:13):
is it.
Joey (27:13):
You know the immediate question like oh how, what are
your pronouns?
Or is that too harsh?
Or, you know, do you just kindof go by gender society norms
and you know they look like aman, so they are like, male,
like he, him, or they look likea female.
So they're she, her, male, likehe, him, or they look like a
(27:34):
female, so they're she, her,like.
Paul (27:35):
Tell me your kind of opinion on that and how we can
educate the pod hmm, it's, it'sinteresting because I, I don't
know that I feel like there's somany factors and so many
different opinions.
Like I, I myself use they, thempronouns for myself.
That's how I self-identify ifsomebody was to ask me.
(27:56):
But I've, I've never correctedsomeone, um, and most people do
assume, especially like in theworkplace, that I am like a he,
him, that I'm a man, which again, it's fine.
Like I, I identified as a manfor most of my life, um, up
until this point, it's not likean issue to me and I feel secure
(28:17):
enough in myself that I I'm notreally bothered by someone mis
misgendering me and, as I say,like I don't really like fight
for it, um, and I look how Ilook and that's okay.
But also I feel like I don'tknow, I could, I could, I could
(28:40):
stand up for it more, I guess.
But yeah, like asking people,like there's definitely been
spaces I'm in where I know I'mthe only one who is genderqueer
and they've like been like, ohyeah, we forgot to do pronouns,
everyone do pronouns, andthey're going around the circle
and I'm like I know, or at leastin my head, I'm like I know
(29:01):
they're just saying this so thatpeople get my pronouns, which
is nice, but then also it's kindof like, you know, if I'm in a
room full of he, she's like hehims or she hers, sorry, and I'm
, you know, the only like saythat I'm more different,
differently pronoun person, thatit it can feel like okay, like
(29:22):
singled out, but you know, like,arguably not for like a bad
reason.
Um, I've started to a littlebit more like correct people,
like if they'll, or just like ifI'll kind of like say the thing
that they said, like they'llsay, oh, yeah, he's so this, and
then I'll be like, haha, theyare so this.
But like I don't think theyusually notice, to be honest.
(29:43):
I kind of say it very subtlybut for me it doesn't really
matter.
I at this point don't reallymind being misgendered, but for
some people they really do, andso I can't be like, oh, this is,
you know, just because it'sokay for me doesn't mean it's
okay for other people.
Some people can feel reallylike it can really mess with
them if people are not callingthem the correct gender.
(30:06):
Like, hypothetically, there'ssomeone in your workplace and
they look like they are genderqueer and you can say for
certain if they identified asmaybe male, female non-binary
gender queer in some way?
Do you go up to them and asktheir pronouns?
(30:28):
I think you do.
I think arguably, if you'reuncertain, you can go up and ask
them.
Do you go up to them and asktheir pronouns?
I think you do.
I think, arguably, if you'reuncertain you can go up and ask
them.
But also again, that's likehave you gone up and asked
everyone else's pronouns?
No Right.
Joey (30:38):
So that's the counter argument.
Is that like where?
Where do I don't want to, likeyou know, make that person feel
like isolated you know, likelike you were just saying, like
going back to your story therewhere you said like the, you
know, in a work setting, youfeel like people have definitely
gone around the room and justto say like, oh, let's everyone
say their pronouns, just becausethey kind of need to know what
(31:02):
your pronouns are yeah versus,you know, the heterosexual, uh,
non-queer people in in the group.
So I know it's not like a, it'snot like a one word answer and
it's not like a a linear line.
Like you know, this really justdepends on the person.
But, like, as a society, if, if, how do we?
(31:26):
You know, I feel like they'rebringing in, like you know, more
technology stuff.
So, like you know, it worked.
Like I, like in my full-time job, like I put my pronouns in my,
in my bio, I go by he, him, butbecause I'm queer, I don't want
people to be like, oh, what,what are your pronouns?
I don't want them to ask thatquestion.
(31:47):
So I make it very clear, likewhat my pronouns are.
People address me all the timethat don't actually know me, so,
like, I'd rather them addressme how I identify, versus having
that conversation prior beinglike you know, like what are
your pronouns?
How do you identify?
Like it's a little invasive,right?
So me personally, like I don'tknow, like how other people feel
(32:08):
, but how do I, a queer person,identify another queer person
that might have differentpronouns to the, the society
norm, right?
Like we had this conversationoff mic and I didn't know your
pronouns, were they them?
And I've worked with you fortwo years, mic, and I didn't
know your pronouns.
Were they them?
Paul (32:28):
and I've worked with you for two years, right, so I don't
know whether I refer you tolike as as he, him, maybe
probably I'm gonna be honest,like yeah and also just so you
know, like it's a journey overthe like, I would say two years
ago I wouldn't have identifiedas they them right um, so I
think it's only like I only putthey them as my pronouns on my
(32:48):
instagram, like, maybe like amonth ago not that I used
instagram a ton, that wasn'tlike a big marker for me, but I
was like, oh, I should do thatwas like your social stepping
stone.
Joey (32:59):
Yeah, true that was like for you being like, okay, like
people that don't know me nowcan see me on this platform and
like if they are looking like Iam they them, yeah, right, yeah,
exactly that's true.
When you show up to work andthat's any job that you are
working in, or you know current,previous, you know future.
Paul (33:19):
Um, what, how, how do I I don't know how to like word
this- just say the say the words, say the wrong words and the
right ones will come how do youpresent yourself?
Joey (33:35):
or okay, actually, no, I'm gonna rephrase one more time
because I know what I want tosay.
Okay, when you work and you puton your uniform, you put on
your persona, for whatever thatmight be if it's customer
service or management or godknows whatever you're doing in
the world right?
yeah this is unique to any jobin any role that you're doing,
(34:02):
not specific to one.
Um.
Do you think on the societynorms to avoid those questions
from work and staff and like,also like customers, consumers,
like whoever you're dealing withday in, day out, like just
because you don't want to bringattention to it?
Paul (34:24):
yeah, I think there's so many factors like I've.
I've identified as a man mostof my life.
Most of my clothes are,although kind of, maybe more on
the like, flamboyant, colorful,gay side, they're mostly men's
clothes.
Joey (34:43):
I I love your clothes Thanks.
Paul (34:46):
Yeah, I, yeah, I enjoy clothes so much and it changes
day by day.
Like, some days I put on myuniform, which is more masculine
, or just you know, it's a maleuniform and I feel good in it.
And some days I put it on, Ifeel like it's not me.
I feel good in it, and somedays I put it on, I feel like
(35:10):
it's not me.
And then also sometimes when Ilook at myself and I'm maybe in
a more gender-fluid outfit or aless binary outfit, then it's
like I think I look good or Ifeel good, but also I'm just not
used to dressing like that.
I haven't got years ofexperience dressing in a for
like a different body type or adifferent person than is like
(35:34):
male and also, yeah, like I havea, a male body, and so like
sometimes I try and shy, shyaway from that and sometimes I
lean into it.
So it's just like.
It's just very confusing, likeevery every day, like I don't
know what I'm gonna feel like orlook like.
And then sometimes I like enjoyhow I look, like some, like
I've been going to the gymrecently and I look a little bit
(35:55):
more like muscly than I havepreviously not that muscly, but
just like I'm like okay, cool,yeah, like I see my body and
then it obviously that's, it's amore masculine presenting body,
or at least what society hastold me is masculine.
Right then I'm.
So I'm like oh, I look likethis, like sometimes I wish I
looked more like androgynous,but I have more comes to terms
with like it's my body andthat's okay, and my body is not
(36:18):
a gender expression and mefeeling good in my body and like
working out and getting my bodyto a place I want it to be does
not change how I identify.
Like I could be this I could getsuper buff and be like a six
foot three buff person, and thatdoesn't change my gender.
Joey (36:36):
I could still dress however I want and even though
society says, you know, beingmuscular is more masculine yeah
and being tall is more masculine, exactly, which is so fucked up
.
It's really fucked up.
You know like it's like, oh,you're six, four, wow, you're
such a bro.
Yeah, like you know what I mean.
(36:56):
Like you're like, oh you'resick.
Like I don't know.
Like height, you know.
Or facial features, like abeard, right, like that's like
more masculine.
Is it really like I have abeard, I, I have my beard
because it complements myhaircut, or like my face shape,
like, or just because I like it?
I don't, I don't necessarilyhave it because I'm like, I'm
(37:18):
one of the dudes yeah yeah, likeno, thank you.
Paul (37:20):
I would clean, shave and get laser hair removal on my
face if that was the case, likeI don't want to be one of the
dudes yeah, I just like to be me, yeah, and like, yeah, like
it's it's a lot to keep up ontop of like facial, you know, to
like be like being shaven everyday, like that's yeah like I
don't, I don't put that muchtime or effort into it, so like
I often end up with like a bitof a beard or stubble or you
(37:41):
know, but like I don't alwaysidentify with that totally.
Joey (37:45):
Um, I also just want to like just talk really quickly on
a couple points that youbrought up.
Um, I want to say that I loveseeing you when we work together
in your more professional um Iguess like managerial work
outfits, because you I saw moreexpression in who you are,
(38:06):
because there's a little bitmore freedom in, like the
uniform yeah um.
So I found that I really enjoyedseeing that paul come to work,
because I saw like morepersonality and a little bit
more depth rather than, like yousaid, more masculine tones of
the other uniform that you wouldhave to wear for your role, um,
(38:29):
which is more like a universalfor like all men.
And then they have a femaleuniform and then there's the
management uniform, which isstill, I guess there's
boundaries and, like you know,that you have to wear and it's
still a uniform, it's universalas masculine and feminine.
But there was, there is,lenient oh yeah, there's
(38:50):
leniency.
There's leniency in the moremanagement uniform, like I feel
like, yeah, you're allowed towear color, you're allowed to
like, yeah, or like, even likethe types of clothes like the
management where, like, itdoesn't need to be like a
form-fitted tight shirt or itdoesn't need to be like a form
fitted tight shirt or it doesn'tneed to be like you know, like
(39:10):
there's more accessories, stuffthat you can wear, like your
shoes and stuff like can be alittle bit more different.
and I've noticed, just like whenwe're, when we're working, or
when I used to work with you, um, that most people because the
uniform as our other role isjust as a server, I'm going to
(39:32):
say it, you were a server, oh no, hospitality, I could never.
I find that when we show up asservers, our uniform is it's
come a long way, it's veryprogressive, not necessarily for
, um, the male role, but thefemale role for sure, because
(39:54):
when I started there eight yearsago, they had to have like a
uniform policy.
Was you need to wear one pieceof jewelry, you need to
straighten your hair?
damn you needed to have makeupon, like these were like a part
of the uniform policy, like thatwas maybe it was like an
unspoken rule.
Maybe it wasn't like in thecontract, but it was definitely
(40:15):
like, oh, like, you want toserve in the lounge?
Well, you can't, because youdon't have breasts and you don't
have makeup and your hair's notstraight and you're not wearing
those rings that you wear,those cute little rings and
those necklaces that you always,you know, accessorize with, and
those high heels.
Yeah, like we've come a longway, for sure, and like seeing
that, like people that identifyas like men and like male
(40:40):
figures in, like the loungeserving aspect now, and like the
bar even.
Like these weren't allowed backwhen, like you know, seven,
eight years ago that that wasn'ta thing, yeah, crazy no, it's,
it's.
Paul (40:53):
It's true, it's nice to see how far it's come in that
respect, but I definitely feellike the fact that we still have
like a male uniform and afemale uniform is I feel like
it's crazy.
But I guess I live in my ownlittle bubble, you know, like I
forget that most of the peoplethat that, uh, we work with or
that used to work with, likethey are in like, yeah, I forget
(41:16):
that there's a straight worldand there's a gay world and I
live in the gay world and butlike so does like 85 of the
servers that we work with livein the straight world no, live
in the gay world.
Joey (41:27):
Yeah yeah, yeah, like like most of um the like, I guess,
like male identifying servers atthe location that we were at,
were gay or bisexual yeah, well,we like yeah yeah, a lot of
them.
I wanted to share a story thatwas really quick.
(41:48):
Um, talking about uniform, sothis was about six years ago or
five years ago, um, I was at adifferent location and the
uniform used to be um a blacktie, um a server um shirt, like
a like a black dress shirt,black dress pants, black dress
(42:09):
shoes, the server tie, which wasblack, and then you would get
like the tie clip as a part ofthe uniform from cactus club
with your like pouch.
But it wasn't a little serverpouch, a cute little one that
the girls used to wear, becausethat was genderfied.
It was a girl server pouch, asmall one.
There's a very long server umpouch.
It's almost like.
It's like almost looks like akilt, like a small one.
There's a very long server umpouch.
It's almost like.
It's like almost looks like akilt, like a dress yeah it's
(42:31):
very long past your knees rightdown and, depending how tall you
are, like you could drag alongthe floor right like, and that
was seen as like the maleuniform.
And at the time I was where agirl had come in for an
interview and she'd said tomanagement oh, like I don't feel
comfortable wearing the femaleuniform, what's the other
options you have?
And she said you can wear themale uniform, but you have to
(42:51):
wear every piece of it.
So they wouldn't let her comein in her high heels with her
dress pants, so she had to wearthe dress, shoes that were more
masculine or like you know, likenon-platform, and then she had
to wear like the full, likedress, like kind of skirt.
Looking.
(43:11):
I can't explain this.
Yeah, like an apron.
Paul (43:14):
I'm butchering.
Yeah, it's an apron.
Joey (43:15):
That's exactly what it is, but it was just so long.
Yeah, it was very long.
It wasn't like a short littlelike moment, like it was long
Like on me as someone who's sixfoot it was probably just past
my knees.
Yeah, um, wild.
So this girl that's like wasshorter.
I think she was like maybe likefive, six.
(43:38):
She was like I can't wear that,like it's gonna drag on the
floor and they're like well,that's the only options we have.
So I think we've come a longway, because now we don't have
to wear like those long aprons,like we can wear like the the
little pouch.
Yeah, and this isn't like toisolate one company or like
(44:00):
previous roles or current roles.
This is just more so likebringing awareness to the
workplace and like how do webring more education and
progression to gender norms andsociety?
And, yeah, that makes senseright no, yeah, yeah totally
okay.
That brings us to the end of ourepisode today oh, kind of sad
(44:24):
yeah, I feel like we had somegreat talking topics here and
hopefully we provided some higheducation to the queer confused
people absolutely uh, but moreso, just uh.
Yeah, like you know, this islike everyday kind of topics and
things that we deal with everysingle day, and like experience
and journeys from our lives thathopefully someone can learn
(44:46):
from and maybe put towards theirdaily life or I hope so as well
.
Paul (44:51):
I hope that people have maybe related somewhat to what
we've said or yeah or maybeyou'll get some nice angry
engagement with people whostrongly disagree, and that's
fun too I doubt that no onedisagrees with me.
No, true, they can't Well thankyou for being here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Joey (45:10):
Absolutely.
Thanks for sharing your journey, your stories and your
experiences, and thanks forbringing and shedding a little
bit of light on pronouns for ustoday, my pleasure.
Thank you for listening to merant about my life.
I love how you call it a rant,but for me it's's like it's so
eye-opening and it's so uh, it'sso it's so vulnerable you know
(45:31):
it is vulnerable, you know.
But uh thanks for, uh thanksfor sharing and we hope to have
you back one day all right, fine, I'll come back.
Paul (45:38):
You live close to me.
What's your excuse?
Joey (45:41):
weekly guest star.
New episodes go live everywednesday.
Thanks for tuning in and wehope to see you every wednesday.
Right paul, right paul yeahyeah, remember, I'm not gay.
You are bye, bye.
Wait, this is about gay people.
welcome back to.
I'm not gay.
You are with your host, joey,that is me.
And today we've got someonesuper special, paul.
Paul (00:22):
Hi, it's me, paul it's me, it's me, paul.
Joey (00:26):
Welcome to.
I'm Not Gay, you Are.
Thank you for having me, joey,I'm stoked, I'm super excited to
talk about your life, yourexperiences, what you have to
share with us today.
Get into the nitty gritties, ohyeah all that juicy good stuff.
Okay, so, paul, tell us alittle bit about yourself.
Um, you know how you ended uphere today, um, and what kind of
(00:51):
brought you to.
I'm not gay, you are okay, um,hello, hello, um.
Paul (00:56):
My name is paul sansom.
Um, I am from scotlandoriginally.
I grew up on the shetlandislands there, um I was 18.
Then I moved to the mainland,lived in Dundee, edinburgh, met
myself a Canadian guy there andhe took me over here and that's
how I ended up in Vancouver.
Joey (01:16):
Nice Wait, tell us how you met your Canadian partner.
Paul (01:19):
Okay, so I was living in Edinburgh at the time and I was
on a date with another guyactually and we went to this bar
called the Street in Edinburgh.
It's one of like three gay barsthere.
Shout out the Street.
Joey (01:33):
I might end up going there .
You should yeah.
Paul (01:36):
There's the Street or there's CC Blooms or there's
another one.
The Gay Triangle is what it'scalled.
It's this little like triangle.
The three points, the threelittle points okay at least
that's how it was when I wasthere.
It could have changed, butanyway.
So he was working there and Ijust ordered some wine from him
and he had a cute little what Ithought was a french accent, and
(01:56):
so I was like I like youraccent, like are you from france
?
And he was like oh no, actuallyit's a good guess, but I'm from
quebec that's my impression ofthe french canadian yeah, so I
was like oh, that's cool.
So we chatted a little bit and Iordered a few drinks from him
throughout the night, but Iended up getting very drunk and
me and my date went to anotherbar and left and I forgot about
(02:20):
elwa you know sad, but now lookbut now look exactly.
Yeah, two weeks later werandomly met at a different, the
other gay bar, cc Blooms.
Okay, the end of the night Isaw him there.
Joey (02:31):
He wasn't working.
Paul (02:32):
No, he had gone there after his shift.
Joey (02:33):
Okay.
Paul (02:35):
And so, yeah, I saw him there near the door while me and
my friends were dancing and Iwanted to get up the courage to
go speak to him, but I justdidn't.
And then the lights came on asit closed and he was still there
.
So I was like, okay, now it'smy chance.
And I went over to him and Iwas like hey, and then he looked
at me.
He was speaking to someone elseat the time, but he looked at
me.
I was like oh, hey, it's you orsomething I don't, I can't
(02:57):
remember.
He instantly recognized me andthen we chatted.
And we chatted outside the clubfor like two hours.
There was a guy like sweepingcigarette butts around us as we
were like making out.
It was cutely awkward, um.
Joey (03:11):
And then, yeah, we've spoken every day since and been
together arguably ever since oh,cute, okay, yeah, well, so
sorry, tell me his name one moretime elwa, because it's not's
not, it's, not, it's.
That sounds like a lot ofpronunciation for me.
Paul (03:26):
Yeah, it's.
You can just say Eloi, eloi, Ioften do, it's E-L-O-I, it's,
think of it like the maleversion of Eloise E-L-O-Y,
e-l-o-i.
Joey (03:40):
Oh, okay, eloi, Eloi Okay.
Paul (03:43):
Yeah, with an accent de U on the.
E yeah.
I heard the podcast.
I knew you'd mentioned it wasin the works.
I knew it was happening and thenI listened, after the third
episode had come out, to allthree episodes and I just really
enjoyed it.
I thought it was a really funkind of um, easy listening.
(04:06):
I enjoy, obviously, hearingabout kind of queer topics.
Um, it appeals to me for someweird reason Um, I'm gay, uh, uh
and I just thought, I don'tknow, I I didn't think that
there was anything specific thatI could necessarily bring to it
, but I just wanted toparticipate.
(04:27):
Yeah, I wanted to be a part ofit yeah, I wanted to be a part
of it, I guess so that's fair,um, and you're here.
Joey (04:32):
Yeah, I'm here and you're a part of it exactly done and
we've got lots of questions foryou.
Oh perfect yeah yeah, this is.
This is where you understandyour participation exactly I'm
here.
I'm a vessel um, well, we'rehappier here.
Um, I'm happier here and I'mhappy you reached out to me
because I'm just I'm excitedyeah I feel like everyone comes
(04:56):
on and everyone has their ownkind of like value that they add
, um, and their own likeexperience, their journeys, um.
So it's so nice to have adifferent guest every so often
to just share and bring adifferent topic potentially with
them.
So, as we typically do, we knowa little bit about you now,
paul.
So tell us about your earlyyears, when you came to terms
(05:20):
with who you are.
You know, were you always gayfrom a young age or do you feel
like you've matured into who youare today?
Uh, more recently, um, is thatyou know because of your
upbringing?
Do you reckon that's because ofwho you are like?
Paul (05:35):
talking about your early years, yeah yo yeah, um yeah, my
early years I I think it's oneof those things like looking
back.
Obviously I'm like oh yeah, Iwas.
I was gay.
It was pretty obvious I hadonly female friends growing up.
(05:58):
Um, I found guys and like boysin my school scary and
intimidating.
Not that that means you're gay,but it's it's a, you know.
It's not a no, not a sign thatyou're gay yeah, I mean it could
be an indicator, yeah so, um,but yeah, my parents are, um,
(06:21):
very religious or very spiritual.
I grew up Christian, going tochurch every every Sunday and so
, sorry, just thinking, yeah, Igrew up going to church and I
just I was.
I think I was in denial.
I was in denial for my wholechildhood and it was only when I
(06:43):
was like 18 that I came out.
Actually, no, I must have been20.
It was in 2018.
So I was.
I was 20 when I came out to myparents and my family and I
think I came out to my firstfriend in 2017.
Um, and it took moving toanother continent to have the
(07:06):
space from my family and from mylife.
I think that was what allowedme to kind of accept myself more
in some ways.
Joey (07:14):
I feel that that resonates with me.
I mean my story's differentupbringing, wise and just like
you know, religious views andeverything.
But where we're similar is Ialso moved here from england and
I, when I moved here, I Icalled myself joey, like that
was who I am, even though mylegal name is joe, and every
(07:36):
time I go back home I'm joe.
My mom calls me joe, dad, youknow everyone my boyfriend's
always like, oh, who's this joe?
You know um, and it's just oneletter on my name.
But it really identifies for melike the symbol is symbolism of
like coming out and like who Ican be here and comfortably I
need to bring that person homewith me now, but it was just a
(07:56):
reinvention of myself and likewho I wanted to be and I felt I
could do that when I moved whatage did you move here?
uh, I moved in 2018 okay yeah,so he was here in 2018.
Um, I'd come out to a couplefriends back home um prior, but
I hadn't come out to my parentsor any anyone, just a just a
(08:16):
couple of my close friends.
So when I came here, I was likeI don't have any, like you know
, uh, I guess interlinkingfriends that are gonna like tell
my secret back home and youknow what gets posted online is
kind of like monitored, so likeno one's gonna find out, and I
got to be who I wanted to behere, which is so crazy to say
(08:37):
actually out loud.
You know, like I got to be whoI wanted to be in like a
different environment, yeah, butyeah, so very similar aspect
there.
I just wanted to bring that toattention.
Sorry, carry on.
Paul (08:52):
No, no, I totally, I totally get that, just getting
that space.
But yeah, so then I we were inSingapore at the time I was
studying there for the coursethat I was doing Moved back home
because I decided I didn't wantto do that course and um, and
then I was on the phone to myparents at one point and they
were just saying that they feltlike they were noticing a
(09:12):
distance from me.
In the last couple years I'dbeen very close to them growing
up, more, more close to themgrowing up, and so I just like.
Then it just like came out.
I just started crying, I waslike I don't like girls, they
like guys, I'm gay.
And there was just like I swearlike a minute of silence.
And then they started like theywere like, oh, like, how do you
know I don't.
And then I just ended uphanging up on them and my sister
(09:33):
phoned me a while later andthen I ended up coming out to
her the same night and I have afew siblings, so I came out to
them all over the next coupleweeks um, how did you feel
afterwards?
Joey (09:46):
did you feel relieved, or was it like not immediately
relief, it was more like I thinkit was ultimately a relief.
Paul (09:51):
There was a big emotional release, obviously, as I was
telling my parents, andafterwards I kind of cried to my
sister, for, you know, I feellike it was a few hours, maybe
it was just half an hour, but,um, there was a lot of.
I felt very scared.
I think it's that vulnerability, you know, yeah, like worried
(10:11):
that this would mean they youknow they hadn't had the
reaction that I wanted, but theyhad had a reaction I knew they
would have.
But obviously, you know itwould have been nice to have
like a oh cool, that's awesome.
Yay, uh, cake and fireworks,yeah cake and fireworks.
I would have loved that, but umyou know, I didn't get that and,
as I say, I wasn't expectingthat and it wouldn't be true to
them if they had given me thatreaction.
(10:33):
Um, but there's that moment oflike, oh, you know what, if
these stories that you hearabout people who get like kicked
out not that I was living withthem at the time, but, like you
know, are rejected from theirfamily, but I ultimately knew
deep down that that wasn't thecase, like there's so much love
in my family and from my parents.
(10:55):
But I uh, yeah, those thoughtsare in your head at that time,
as you know, I'm sure totally,yeah it, yeah, it's that.
Joey (11:02):
Uh, it's that scary thought, you know, and and like,
once you've said it, you can'twithdraw it, it doesn't, you
can't just come back from it,Right?
And the questions that theyhave, and you know that, are you
sure or how do you know?
And there was, you can't reallyexpress that Like just know,
(11:24):
right like I just like how doyou know you're not attracted to
women?
Like, how do you explain that?
Paul (11:28):
yeah, like, um, I didn't just decide it, but there's been
hey, there's just been years ofinner turmoil and hating myself
literally fighting this, andwomen don't have dicks yeah,
exactly that's what I said.
Joey (11:40):
That's a big one prior to you coming out, you'd had, did
you?
You never mentioned?
Did you have um any experienceswith men prior?
Paul (11:52):
yeah, I I had.
It's kind of interesting howlike foggy a lot of those
experiences are.
I think I've like suppressedthem or I know I've had a few
before I came out, like inuniversity, which I was in my
second year.
When I came out to them In myfirst year I had downloaded
(12:16):
Grindr before I was even 18 andleft the island that I grew up
on, but there was no one therereally, so I hadn't met up with
anyone there, but I had no one'sdads on Grindr that you
recognize no.
I don't, there was no one.
Joey (12:31):
I had I'm outing them.
Paul (12:35):
No, um, I feel like I had visited my sister in Edinburgh
before I had moved there, and Ihad it then and I had I met up
with a guy.
At that point I must have beenlike maybe like 17 or maybe I
was 18, but I like remembergoing out for like a walk, I
told them, and I met up withthis guy and I think he was like
(12:58):
he must have been like hismid-30s.
He was smoking something that Idon't think was weed and I was
too like shy and awkward to likesay anything about it, and so
we like did stuff, and I don'tknow how much time passed, but
not enough you're like I gotta,I've gotta go.
Yeah, I was like time for me togo, so um.
(13:22):
I remember I um, I didn't knowwhat to say because I just was
like shit, it's been too long.
I looked at my phone.
I had tons of missed calls frommy family because it had been
like, you know, like an hour anda half or something that yeah
for this walk, yeah and so I waslike, oh, I need to go, I have
a family.
He was like what?
Joey (13:38):
you have a family you're like yeah, I'm married, two kids
, literally while you're textingyour mom.
Be like the loch ness monstergot me.
That's what took me so long onmy walk, literally.
Paul (13:49):
So I remember like running home, and they were like, what
are you doing?
Were you doing drugs?
Like I didn't know anyone inthe city.
But I was like no, I just wentfor a walk, I'm sorry, and like
uh, so awkward and weird.
So, yeah, I'd had a fewexperiences and then in in
university, when I was, I wouldget drunk and message people and
go and do stuff, but very, verysuper in the closet.
Joey (14:09):
I had a girlfriend.
Paul (14:12):
Actually, in my first year of university, from when I left
the island, she was on theisland and then, or maybe it was
from around Christmas time.
Anyway, for a little bit, shecame down to visit me.
We, we did stuff when she cameto visit me, um, we had sex,
(14:36):
isn't?
Joey (14:36):
it funny how, like, just looking back on your life and
like who you are today versuswho you were then, like it's so,
like it's not hard to talkabout, but it's so awkward, yeah
, like it's like you don't wantto like, yeah, I, I'm in the
same way.
Yeah.
I feel, like this is validatingwatching you.
I resonate with it, but carryon.
(14:57):
Sorry, no, no, don't apologize.
Paul (15:00):
Yeah, she came to visit and I think, like the whole time
, like it was like oh, if I havea, you know if I get a girl
because she was my firstgirlfriend and I was like my
whole childhood.
It's like if I get a girlfriend, then I'll know, I'm straight,
that's what needs to happen.
I just need to get a girlfriend.
And then I got her as mygirlfriend and I was like, okay,
cool.
And then I was still like,didn't feel 100% right.
(15:20):
But I was like, okay, we justneed to have sex and I'll prove
to myself you might need to holdit closer, prove to myself that
I, um, we, that I'm, that I'mstraight or whatever, um, and
she, yeah, she came to visit mefor a weekend and I knew we were
going to we didn't likeexplicitly say it, but I think I
(15:41):
knew that we were going to bothlike have sex and you're scared
yeah, yeah, it was really scary.
and you know, interestingly, Iactually went to the doctors and
lied that I was struggling tohave sex with my girlfriend and
(16:01):
I couldn't get it up and sheprescribed me Viagra.
And that's why I wanted to getViagra, so that I could have sex
with my girlfriend, because Iwas like this will ensure that.
Joey (16:12):
I was able to get it up, so I remember Were you worried
that you weren't going to beable to?
Paul (16:15):
Yeah, yeah, I was worried.
I think like, yeah, I wasworried about that because
previously in like make outsessions or stuff, I was like
why is nothing happening, likesomething should be happening
here?
Joey (16:27):
and nothing had been.
Paul (16:28):
Yeah, and that stressed me out.
So I was like up until thispoint I've been proven that
nothing's really happened.
So I remember from my brother'sstag do um, we went to a like a
strip club, um, and I got a lapdance and I remember being like
yeah and being like nothing ishappening.
Why?
(16:48):
you're like, like there, thereare titties in my face, there's
a gorgeous woman touching mewith her body and I am very
indifferent, anyway.
So I went to the bathroombefore we had sex, me and my
girlfriend when she came tovisit me and took a Viagra and
obviously it didn't help becauseI didn't know that.
(17:10):
But it turns out Viagra onlyhelps if you are into it.
It's not just like a magic pillwell, actually, I actually
didn't know that yeah, I didn'tknow that either.
But yeah, you have to like, havea want.
There has to be some sort oflike attraction.
It's not, doesn't just like mad, like you can't just be, like
totally zoned out and it's likehard oh, I thought it was like.
Joey (17:28):
I thought it was like medically, like just push the
blood flow into your penis.
Paul (17:33):
It does, it encourages it, but I think there has to be
like.
It's like stimulation, yeah,like, or there just has to like
as in if there's no blood flowgoing there, then it's not going
to do anything, but it's likeif there's a bit of blood flow,
then it'll be a lot of bloodflow, you know, but there was no
blood flow, I think.
I don't know, I'm not ascientist but I think porn stars
do use.
They can do injections.
Joey (17:54):
Oh, okay.
Paul (17:54):
They can inject stuff, and that does make it more like
they have no choice.
It just is.
I didn't know about that, Iwasn't going to inject anything.
Joey (18:04):
That's irrelevant.
Paul (18:05):
I'm just on the topic of that Interesting.
I didn't actually know that.
Yeah, I've never used um viagra.
I feel bad saying it becauseI'm like if she ever listened to
this not that she would, but Imean she knows that I'm gay I
don't think she would hold itagainst me that I tried yeah, no
, I well, I hope not, andobviously I it's difficult to
(18:26):
talk about, but I think what wedo here is, like all for
educational purposes and nothingshould be off the table.
Joey (18:35):
You know, um, obviously with with your consent, but, um,
we all do crazy stuff for thepeople that we think we love, or
, um, you know, to prove who wemight think we are to certain
people right and like this justkind of goes to show that, like
in this situation, you werewilling to take medicine to, to
(18:59):
prove, you know, to yourself, orto your partner, to your
parents and like everybody else,like the social norm, that you
were straight, even thoughthat's not necessarily deep,
deep depth down how you trulyfelt right, yeah, um, yeah, it's
true it is.
Paul (19:16):
That is how deep in it I was, uh.
But after that weekend, I think, that's when the bubble kind of
popped and I was like, okay, Idon't think I can really deny
this anymore.
And then it was later thatsummer that I told my first
friend, and then yada, yada,yada, and then now I'm gay and
I'm open about it.
Um, but I'm still a young gay,I guess you know, yeah, lots to
(19:36):
learn.
I totally believe in the likethe idea that, like you know,
like you're kind of just likeyou know, like gay puberty or
whatever, like I arguably bythis I'm like I'm six years old
in gay years.
Okay, not really I don't knowwhat that means, but I just feel
like I'm still, I still feellike I'm very like you're still
in your twink era yeah, I'mstill like figuring out myself
(19:56):
and like what all this means andgetting to a point of like
self-confidence, I guess, in andcomfortability, you know,
defeating all the likeinternalized homophobia
self-internalized homophobiathanks for sharing that I
appreciate you're very welcome,yeah um, you truly just don't
know someone's story.
Joey (20:16):
You know just by looking at them.
So, um, thanks for opening upand sharing that and, uh, in
your journey with us, umfollowing up, you know from your
early years, um, I kind ofnavigate this question
frequently, um, but do youbelieve being gay is something
that's uh nurtured into us or doyou feel like it's nature's way
(20:37):
of of?
Paul (20:39):
like you were born this way.
Definitely think it's a mix ofboth.
Uh, I don't know yeah, um I, Iheard a fact.
I haven't looked up the studiesmyself, I guess, but the fact
is that um, younger siblings aremore likely to be gay.
Um, yeah, so like, the morechildren someone has, the more
(21:01):
likely that one of theirchildren is that the child is
going to be gay how manysiblings do you have?
I have six.
Oh, I'm the youngest of six sothere's five brothers and
sisters.
Joey (21:11):
Yeah, okay yeah, yeah sorry, that was difficult for my
brain.
Paul (21:13):
I was like, sorry, yeah, I think I said I'm the youngest
of six.
That makes sense.
Yeah, um, so not that, that isnot I'm using that as proof, but
it's um, like, theoretically,the scientists believe that.
Um, in terms of evolution, it'slike the more people there are,
the more people there are, themore people there are in your
family, the more you maybe don'tneed someone who's going to
(21:36):
like continue the genetic line,but you need someone who's going
to be able to provide, like,care and provide you know other
things.
Joey (21:45):
I never thought of that.
Paul (21:46):
That's at least one scientific explanation of this
theory.
Anyway, interesting as I say,I'm not not I haven't read the
studies myself, I just rememberhearing about it and thinking
that that it, that it made sense, um, but I definitely think a
lot of it is nurture as well.
I grew up with three oldersisters and two brothers who
(22:07):
bullied me.
I didn't love my brothers at alot of times though I do now and
my sisters would dress me upand they were big influences on
me.
I remember they had,particularly my older sisters,
evelyn and Sarah.
They had posters or cutoutsfrom magazines of like sexy boys
at the time, like I'm trying toremember, like early 2000s, uh,
(22:32):
was like peter andre on thewall, yeah, like um who's like.
Who's like legolas, who'slegolas?
Oh um, orlando bloom, orlandobloom I remember like a sexy
orlando bloom, maybe like ajohnny depp even, I don't know
just these like sexy posters onthe wall that they had.
Joey (22:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Paul (22:52):
They were like teen girls.
They were, you know, older thanme and I remember seeing them.
I also remember being in lovewith most of their boyfriends,
but again, it's like I didn'tthink of it at the time, but I
remember just like loving themand they were very very, very
(23:13):
like attractive mags.
Joey (23:14):
You know what like eight or nine or whatever, and when
you're a kid.
It's like you're so not subtlebecause you could, you're acting
on what you don't know is like,and you're like, oh, play with
me.
Or like, hang out with me.
And then they're like, leave myboyfriend alone, you little
jerk.
And you're like, oh no, um, Igot a new toy.
Come play with this.
Or you know, and they're likeoh, leave me alone, you little
brat.
Paul (23:33):
Yeah, totally that, so funny so yeah, I guess you know
I was surrounded by thisenvironment and these people who
I looked up to, my sisters.
Mostly they were into guys, soI definitely think that could be
a part of it.
I had all girlfriends.
A few of those girlfriendsturned out to be queer or gay in
their own way, but you know, atthe time most of them were
(23:55):
talking about like boys andstuff like that as well.
So I don't know.
I definitely think it's a mix ofthe two like I ultimately think
that in an ideal and perfectworld there wouldn't really be
gender in the same way that wehave it now and people would
just fall in love with who theyfall in love with.
So I don't know if that wouldever actually come to be, but I
(24:17):
just mean theoretically likethere's just people existing.
Different people have differentgender expression, how they
look, they have differentgenitalia and they're into
different things, but theywouldn't categorize themselves
as like straight or gay oranything.
It's just people are into,people that they're into.
I think in my head that's theideal world that we're headed
(24:38):
towards.
Whether we actually do, I don'tthink.
Joey (24:40):
I don't know, but like why do we need to identify as male
or female?
Yeah, like why, like you knowor or anything else you know
when we're born, why is it likewe get one gender as like, male
or female?
Yeah right, like what's why?
What's the purpose?
Exactly it doesn't.
And like when you're fillingout your passport, why do I need
(25:00):
to click male or female?
Paul (25:01):
yeah, I don't get it.
I'm like why do you need to?
Joey (25:04):
know that, for me to board an airplane, yeah, like you've
already got my fingerprints, myretina and my, my photo, my
photo.
What else do you need?
Paul (25:11):
And then you need me to be like oh, my gender, yeah it's
dumb and it's like a lot ofhoops to jump through, like if
you know a trans person who'sgoing through their journey,
like to be able to change theiridentification, and stuff like
that.
It's like a long process and Idon't know they might be at
different stages of how theykind of are expressing
(25:33):
themselves and I I know peoplewho have like encountered issues
when, like traveling and stuff,when they how they have looked
hasn't matched what it says onor even how it looks on their id
, but they haven't been able tochange it.
Oh no, it's tough, yeah, Ithink.
Oh no it's dumb.
Joey (25:48):
It's dumb.
We've become something so bigand I feel like we've come so
far as like a queer communityand but no longer, I guess, like
the interface of like the world.
It's not really like lining upanymore.
I feel like I don't want to getinto politics.
That's not what.
That's really not what I wantto talk about.
I think you'd be good inpolitics.
Paul (26:09):
I don't, I don't know.
Joey (26:17):
I.
That's really not what I wantto talk about.
I think you'd be good inpolitics.
I don't.
I don't know, I have too muchto say, um, but I feel that the
politicians we have and theleaders that we have don't align
with queer community but Idon't necessarily think that any
of them are queer so they can'ttalk on behalf of a community
that they don't align with.
Paul (26:33):
Yeah, right?
No, I totally think so.
Or there are queer ones, queerpeople and there's probably a
lot of them that are in thecloset and feel like if they
come out as queer, that theywould yeah, exactly.
Joey (26:44):
Anyways, yeah, no more politics, no more politics.
This kind of points us into, Iguess organically into my next
questions for you.
So, um, I want to addresspronouns and how do we educate
and how do we support thelisteners um to feel comfortable
(27:09):
to address someone withoutknowing their pronouns Like?
Paul (27:13):
is it.
Joey (27:13):
You know the immediate question like oh how, what are
your pronouns?
Or is that too harsh?
Or, you know, do you just kindof go by gender society norms
and you know they look like aman, so they are like, male,
like he, him, or they look likea female.
So they're she, her, male, likehe, him, or they look like a
(27:34):
female, so they're she, her,like.
Paul (27:35):
Tell me your kind of opinion on that and how we can
educate the pod hmm, it's, it'sinteresting because I, I don't
know that I feel like there's somany factors and so many
different opinions.
Like I, I myself use they, thempronouns for myself.
That's how I self-identify ifsomebody was to ask me.
(27:56):
But I've, I've never correctedsomeone, um, and most people do
assume, especially like in theworkplace, that I am like a he,
him, that I'm a man, which again, it's fine.
Like I, I identified as a manfor most of my life, um, up
until this point, it's not likean issue to me and I feel secure
(28:17):
enough in myself that I I'm notreally bothered by someone mis
misgendering me and, as I say,like I don't really like fight
for it, um, and I look how Ilook and that's okay.
But also I feel like I don'tknow, I could, I could, I could
(28:40):
stand up for it more, I guess.
But yeah, like asking people,like there's definitely been
spaces I'm in where I know I'mthe only one who is genderqueer
and they've like been like, ohyeah, we forgot to do pronouns,
everyone do pronouns, andthey're going around the circle
and I'm like I know, or at leastin my head, I'm like I know
(29:01):
they're just saying this so thatpeople get my pronouns, which
is nice, but then also it's kindof like, you know, if I'm in a
room full of he, she's like hehims or she hers, sorry, and I'm
, you know, the only like saythat I'm more different,
differently pronoun person, thatit it can feel like okay, like
(29:22):
singled out, but you know, like,arguably not for like a bad
reason.
Um, I've started to a littlebit more like correct people,
like if they'll, or just like ifI'll kind of like say the thing
that they said, like they'llsay, oh, yeah, he's so this, and
then I'll be like, haha, theyare so this.
But like I don't think theyusually notice, to be honest.
(29:43):
I kind of say it very subtlybut for me it doesn't really
matter.
I at this point don't reallymind being misgendered, but for
some people they really do, andso I can't be like, oh, this is,
you know, just because it'sokay for me doesn't mean it's
okay for other people.
Some people can feel reallylike it can really mess with
them if people are not callingthem the correct gender.
(30:06):
Like, hypothetically, there'ssomeone in your workplace and
they look like they are genderqueer and you can say for
certain if they identified asmaybe male, female non-binary
gender queer in some way?
Do you go up to them and asktheir pronouns?
(30:28):
I think you do.
I think arguably, if you'reuncertain, you can go up and ask
them.
Do you go up to them and asktheir pronouns?
I think you do.
I think, arguably, if you'reuncertain you can go up and ask
them.
But also again, that's likehave you gone up and asked
everyone else's pronouns?
No Right.
Joey (30:38):
So that's the counter argument.
Is that like where?
Where do I don't want to, likeyou know, make that person feel
like isolated you know, likelike you were just saying, like
going back to your story therewhere you said like the, you
know, in a work setting, youfeel like people have definitely
gone around the room and justto say like, oh, let's everyone
say their pronouns, just becausethey kind of need to know what
(31:02):
your pronouns are yeah versus,you know, the heterosexual, uh,
non-queer people in in the group.
So I know it's not like a, it'snot like a one word answer and
it's not like a a linear line.
Like you know, this really justdepends on the person.
But, like, as a society, if, if, how do we?
(31:26):
You know, I feel like they'rebringing in, like you know, more
technology stuff.
So, like you know, it worked.
Like I, like in my full-time job, like I put my pronouns in my,
in my bio, I go by he, him, butbecause I'm queer, I don't want
people to be like, oh, what,what are your pronouns?
I don't want them to ask thatquestion.
(31:47):
So I make it very clear, likewhat my pronouns are.
People address me all the timethat don't actually know me, so,
like, I'd rather them addressme how I identify, versus having
that conversation prior beinglike you know, like what are
your pronouns?
How do you identify?
Like it's a little invasive,right?
So me personally, like I don'tknow, like how other people feel
(32:08):
, but how do I, a queer person,identify another queer person
that might have differentpronouns to the, the society
norm, right?
Like we had this conversationoff mic and I didn't know your
pronouns, were they them?
And I've worked with you fortwo years, mic, and I didn't
know your pronouns.
Were they them?
Paul (32:28):
and I've worked with you for two years, right, so I don't
know whether I refer you tolike as as he, him, maybe
probably I'm gonna be honest,like yeah and also just so you
know, like it's a journey overthe like, I would say two years
ago I wouldn't have identifiedas they them right um, so I
think it's only like I only putthey them as my pronouns on my
(32:48):
instagram, like, maybe like amonth ago not that I used
instagram a ton, that wasn'tlike a big marker for me, but I
was like, oh, I should do thatwas like your social stepping
stone.
Joey (32:59):
Yeah, true that was like for you being like, okay, like
people that don't know me nowcan see me on this platform and
like if they are looking like Iam they them, yeah, right, yeah,
exactly that's true.
When you show up to work andthat's any job that you are
working in, or you know current,previous, you know future.
Paul (33:19):
Um, what, how, how do I I don't know how to like word
this- just say the say the words, say the wrong words and the
right ones will come how do youpresent yourself?
Joey (33:35):
or okay, actually, no, I'm gonna rephrase one more time
because I know what I want tosay.
Okay, when you work and you puton your uniform, you put on
your persona, for whatever thatmight be if it's customer
service or management or godknows whatever you're doing in
the world right?
yeah this is unique to any jobin any role that you're doing,
(34:02):
not specific to one.
Um.
Do you think on the societynorms to avoid those questions
from work and staff and like,also like customers, consumers,
like whoever you're dealing withday in, day out, like just
because you don't want to bringattention to it?
Paul (34:24):
yeah, I think there's so many factors like I've.
I've identified as a man mostof my life.
Most of my clothes are,although kind of, maybe more on
the like, flamboyant, colorful,gay side, they're mostly men's
clothes.
Joey (34:43):
I I love your clothes Thanks.
Paul (34:46):
Yeah, I, yeah, I enjoy clothes so much and it changes
day by day.
Like, some days I put on myuniform, which is more masculine
, or just you know, it's a maleuniform and I feel good in it.
And some days I put it on, Ifeel like it's not me.
I feel good in it, and somedays I put it on, I feel like
(35:10):
it's not me.
And then also sometimes when Ilook at myself and I'm maybe in
a more gender-fluid outfit or aless binary outfit, then it's
like I think I look good or Ifeel good, but also I'm just not
used to dressing like that.
I haven't got years ofexperience dressing in a for
like a different body type or adifferent person than is like
(35:34):
male and also, yeah, like I havea, a male body, and so like
sometimes I try and shy, shyaway from that and sometimes I
lean into it.
So it's just like.
It's just very confusing, likeevery every day, like I don't
know what I'm gonna feel like orlook like.
And then sometimes I like enjoyhow I look, like some, like
I've been going to the gymrecently and I look a little bit
(35:55):
more like muscly than I havepreviously not that muscly, but
just like I'm like okay, cool,yeah, like I see my body and
then it obviously that's, it's amore masculine presenting body,
or at least what society hastold me is masculine.
Right then I'm.
So I'm like oh, I look likethis, like sometimes I wish I
looked more like androgynous,but I have more comes to terms
with like it's my body andthat's okay, and my body is not
(36:18):
a gender expression and mefeeling good in my body and like
working out and getting my bodyto a place I want it to be does
not change how I identify.
Like I could be this I could getsuper buff and be like a six
foot three buff person, and thatdoesn't change my gender.
Joey (36:36):
I could still dress however I want and even though
society says, you know, beingmuscular is more masculine yeah
and being tall is more masculine, exactly, which is so fucked up
.
It's really fucked up.
You know like it's like, oh,you're six, four, wow, you're
such a bro.
Yeah, like you know what I mean.
(36:56):
Like you're like, oh you'resick.
Like I don't know.
Like height, you know.
Or facial features, like abeard, right, like that's like
more masculine.
Is it really like I have abeard, I, I have my beard
because it complements myhaircut, or like my face shape,
like, or just because I like it?
I don't, I don't necessarilyhave it because I'm like, I'm
(37:18):
one of the dudes yeah yeah, likeno, thank you.
Paul (37:20):
I would clean, shave and get laser hair removal on my
face if that was the case, likeI don't want to be one of the
dudes yeah, I just like to be me, yeah, and like, yeah, like
it's it's a lot to keep up ontop of like facial, you know, to
like be like being shaven everyday, like that's yeah like I
don't, I don't put that muchtime or effort into it, so like
I often end up with like a bitof a beard or stubble or you
(37:41):
know, but like I don't alwaysidentify with that totally.
Joey (37:45):
Um, I also just want to like just talk really quickly on
a couple points that youbrought up.
Um, I want to say that I loveseeing you when we work together
in your more professional um Iguess like managerial work
outfits, because you I saw moreexpression in who you are,
(38:06):
because there's a little bitmore freedom in, like the
uniform yeah um.
So I found that I really enjoyedseeing that paul come to work,
because I saw like morepersonality and a little bit
more depth rather than, like yousaid, more masculine tones of
the other uniform that you wouldhave to wear for your role, um,
(38:29):
which is more like a universalfor like all men.
And then they have a femaleuniform and then there's the
management uniform, which isstill, I guess there's
boundaries and, like you know,that you have to wear and it's
still a uniform, it's universalas masculine and feminine.
But there was, there is,lenient oh yeah, there's
(38:50):
leniency.
There's leniency in the moremanagement uniform, like I feel
like, yeah, you're allowed towear color, you're allowed to
like, yeah, or like, even likethe types of clothes like the
management where, like, itdoesn't need to be like a
form-fitted tight shirt or itdoesn't need to be like a form
fitted tight shirt or it doesn'tneed to be like you know, like
(39:10):
there's more accessories, stuffthat you can wear, like your
shoes and stuff like can be alittle bit more different.
and I've noticed, just like whenwe're, when we're working, or
when I used to work with you, um, that most people because the
uniform as our other role isjust as a server, I'm going to
(39:32):
say it, you were a server, oh no, hospitality, I could never.
I find that when we show up asservers, our uniform is it's
come a long way, it's veryprogressive, not necessarily for
, um, the male role, but thefemale role for sure, because
(39:54):
when I started there eight yearsago, they had to have like a
uniform policy.
Was you need to wear one pieceof jewelry, you need to
straighten your hair?
damn you needed to have makeupon, like these were like a part
of the uniform policy, like thatwas maybe it was like an
unspoken rule.
Maybe it wasn't like in thecontract, but it was definitely
(40:15):
like, oh, like, you want toserve in the lounge?
Well, you can't, because youdon't have breasts and you don't
have makeup and your hair's notstraight and you're not wearing
those rings that you wear,those cute little rings and
those necklaces that you always,you know, accessorize with, and
those high heels.
Yeah, like we've come a longway, for sure, and like seeing
that, like people that identifyas like men and like male
(40:40):
figures in, like the loungeserving aspect now, and like the
bar even.
Like these weren't allowed backwhen, like you know, seven,
eight years ago that that wasn'ta thing, yeah, crazy no, it's,
it's.
Paul (40:53):
It's true, it's nice to see how far it's come in that
respect, but I definitely feellike the fact that we still have
like a male uniform and afemale uniform is I feel like
it's crazy.
But I guess I live in my ownlittle bubble, you know, like I
forget that most of the peoplethat that, uh, we work with or
that used to work with, likethey are in like, yeah, I forget
(41:16):
that there's a straight worldand there's a gay world and I
live in the gay world and butlike so does like 85 of the
servers that we work with livein the straight world no, live
in the gay world.
Joey (41:27):
Yeah yeah, yeah, like like most of um the like, I guess,
like male identifying servers atthe location that we were at,
were gay or bisexual yeah, well,we like yeah yeah, a lot of
them.
I wanted to share a story thatwas really quick.
(41:48):
Um, talking about uniform, sothis was about six years ago or
five years ago, um, I was at adifferent location and the
uniform used to be um a blacktie, um a server um shirt, like
a like a black dress shirt,black dress pants, black dress
(42:09):
shoes, the server tie, which wasblack, and then you would get
like the tie clip as a part ofthe uniform from cactus club
with your like pouch.
But it wasn't a little serverpouch, a cute little one that
the girls used to wear, becausethat was genderfied.
It was a girl server pouch, asmall one.
There's a very long server umpouch.
It's almost like.
It's like almost looks like akilt, like a small one.
There's a very long server umpouch.
It's almost like.
It's like almost looks like akilt, like a dress yeah it's
(42:31):
very long past your knees rightdown and, depending how tall you
are, like you could drag alongthe floor right like, and that
was seen as like the maleuniform.
And at the time I was where agirl had come in for an
interview and she'd said tomanagement oh, like I don't feel
comfortable wearing the femaleuniform, what's the other
options you have?
And she said you can wear themale uniform, but you have to
(42:51):
wear every piece of it.
So they wouldn't let her comein in her high heels with her
dress pants, so she had to wearthe dress, shoes that were more
masculine or like you know, likenon-platform, and then she had
to wear like the full, likedress, like kind of skirt.
Looking.
(43:11):
I can't explain this.
Yeah, like an apron.
Paul (43:14):
I'm butchering.
Yeah, it's an apron.
Joey (43:15):
That's exactly what it is, but it was just so long.
Yeah, it was very long.
It wasn't like a short littlelike moment, like it was long
Like on me as someone who's sixfoot it was probably just past
my knees.
Yeah, um, wild.
So this girl that's like wasshorter.
I think she was like maybe likefive, six.
(43:38):
She was like I can't wear that,like it's gonna drag on the
floor and they're like well,that's the only options we have.
So I think we've come a longway, because now we don't have
to wear like those long aprons,like we can wear like the the
little pouch.
Yeah, and this isn't like toisolate one company or like
(44:00):
previous roles or current roles.
This is just more so likebringing awareness to the
workplace and like how do webring more education and
progression to gender norms andsociety?
And, yeah, that makes senseright no, yeah, yeah totally
okay.
That brings us to the end of ourepisode today oh, kind of sad
(44:24):
yeah, I feel like we had somegreat talking topics here and
hopefully we provided some higheducation to the queer confused
people absolutely uh, but moreso, just uh.
Yeah, like you know, this islike everyday kind of topics and
things that we deal with everysingle day, and like experience
and journeys from our lives thathopefully someone can learn
(44:46):
from and maybe put towards theirdaily life or I hope so as well
.
Paul (44:51):
I hope that people have maybe related somewhat to what
we've said or yeah or maybeyou'll get some nice angry
engagement with people whostrongly disagree, and that's
fun too I doubt that no onedisagrees with me.
No, true, they can't Well thankyou for being here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Joey (45:10):
Absolutely.
Thanks for sharing your journey, your stories and your
experiences, and thanks forbringing and shedding a little
bit of light on pronouns for ustoday, my pleasure.
Thank you for listening to merant about my life.
I love how you call it a rant,but for me it's's like it's so
eye-opening and it's so uh, it'sso it's so vulnerable you know
(45:31):
it is vulnerable, you know.
But uh thanks for, uh thanksfor sharing and we hope to have
you back one day all right, fine, I'll come back.
Paul (45:38):
You live close to me.
What's your excuse?
Joey (45:41):
weekly guest star.
New episodes go live everywednesday.
Thanks for tuning in and wehope to see you every wednesday.
Right paul, right paul yeahyeah, remember, I'm not gay.
You are bye, bye.
Wait, this is about gay people.
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