October 16, 2024 • 51 mins
Growing up in a conservative city like Edmonton isn't easy when you're trying to find your true self, especially if you're part of the LGBTQ+ community. Jackson joins us to share his inspiring story of self-discovery and resilience. Listen as we travel back to Jackson's first childhood crush at a preschool birthday party and explore the pivotal moment in ninth grade when he decided to come out. Jackson's journey is filled with challenges, but it's also a testament to the power of embracing one's identity even when the surrounding environment isn't always accepting.
The rollercoaster of coming out is filled with personal growth, and Jackson's story is no exception. We reflect on the complexities of navigating high school as one of the few openly gay students and the surprising relief of not facing bullying. Our chat brings back memories of shared experiences like working at McDonald's and the amusing drive-thru mishaps. We also delve into Jackson's heartfelt moment of revelation to his friend Naz, capturing the liberation that comes with living authentically.
As we explore modern dating's digital realm, Jackson brings a humorous yet insightful perspective on online dating, discussing the pros and cons of popular platforms and the diverse LGBTQ+ tribes encountered. From tales of awkward Tinder dates to ranking dating apps, this episode offers a comprehensive guide to online connections. Our conversation concludes with the importance of finding a supportive community and the journey toward self-love, reminding everyone that life improves with time and authenticity. Join us every Wednesday for new episodes as we continue to explore diverse stories and experiences.
Follow the show on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/imnotgayyouarepodcast/
Stay tuned bi weekly (Wednesday) for a new episode from I'm not gay, you are
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joey (00:13):
welcome back to another episode with I'm not gay.
You are with myself, joey, yourhost, and today we have jackson
hi how are you?
Jackson (00:23):
I'm doing so good, how are you?
Joey (00:25):
Good, I'm so glad you're here Me too, yeah, it's nice to
have a different perspective andbring someone in and, you know,
put them in the hot seat andask them to answer all the
questions.
Nervous, I want to chat realquick and just let everyone know
, so I'm going to bring it up.
How do we know each other?
(00:50):
I feel like we met at not aglory hole um, we met at the
bathhouse.
Jackson (00:55):
No, just kidding, we actually met at work.
We did yeah again.
Joey (01:00):
Um I, we worked together in a restaurant in vancouver, if
you haven't gathered.
Uh, hospitality is like I feellike a surviving grace here in
vancouver and yeah, everyonedoes it literally um, but we did
, we worked together um.
I recently left to pursue thepodcast um, and I did mention to
jackson that I would love tohave him as a guest and share
(01:22):
his experiences and I was realgung-ho about coming on me
straight away messaging you like, come to my house.
Like, please, let me on pleaseyeah, I'm happy you're here, um,
and I'd love to get into withyou.
Let's do it.
Let's talk early years okay sowhere are you from originally?
(01:42):
Obviously I I know you've justyou moved to Vancouver four
years ago.
Talk to me about early years ofJackson and how you kind of
found and understood who youwanted to be and you know, do
you feel like you were born gayor do you feel like you kind of
came into your era Like what,who supported you and how did
you come to terms with that?
Jackson (02:08):
Okay, like what.
Who supported you and how didyou come to terms with that?
Um, okay, so I was born inedmonton and I feel like that in
itself is like its own thing.
Growing up in alberta, as, likea gay person was definitely not
ideal, but I mean I made itwork.
Joey (02:22):
I why do you think that, like what's for someone that's
listening to this?
It doesn't know what edmontonis, or?
Jackson (02:29):
it's a city.
Joey (02:30):
It's a city within a province right, but it's in the
province of alberta.
Oh yeah, yeah, and it's, andit's cold.
Jackson (02:35):
That's all, that's all I know it's cold, it's quite
conservative, um like justsocially, and yeah, there's just
not a ton of progression yeah.
I mean, there's quite a bit ofracial diversity, but in terms
of diversity with sexualorientation and just people
being different, there wasn't alot of people that I could look
(02:59):
up to or anybody who had a verysimilar experience to me.
Um, but I I feel like I knewthat I was gay from a very, very
, very young age, like before Ieven knew what being gay was.
I've always been attracted toboys, and the first boy I can
remember being attracted to it'sso vivid in my mind was at this
(03:23):
girl's birthday party inpreschool.
So I was probably like five andone of the girls had brought
their older brother and he hadlike this little rat tail and I
just remember being like oh mygod, the hairstyle.
Joey (03:41):
We have to say the rat tail, the hairstyle it just
really did it for me.
Jackson (03:45):
And then we all sat down to watch a movie and he was
sitting in front of me and Iwas like, wow, it's just really
doing it for me trying to grabit trying to grab it fantasizing
about it and yeah, and thenever since then I was just kind
of like okay, that's, that's itfor me.
And then I guess, once Istarted learning what being gay
was and that it wasn'tnecessarily quote unquote the
(04:08):
right way to be, I started tosuppress the feelings a little
bit more.
Joey (04:13):
How did you?
How do you feel like growing upin a conservative city?
How did you get to the gay?
Wasn't that you werecomfortable being not the right
way to be in quotations, kind oflike?
How did you get there, like?
Jackson (04:27):
it honestly took a while.
So I would say like earlyelementary school was great, I
had so much fun, I had reallygreat friends.
And then, I don't know why, butin grade five no, in grade six,
actually a flip just kind ofswitched.
I feel like that's also whenkids start kind of going through
puberty and becoming a littlebit more mean.
And it was just like Jackson'sa girl, jackson's gay, like I
(04:51):
just felt so targeted byeverybody and the girls didn't
want to hang out with me becauseI was a boy and the guys didn't
want to hang out with mebecause I was too girly.
So I didn't really have anyfriends and I just hated going
to school and it sucked, and soI switched schools for seventh
grade and I kind of had it in myhead going into the school like
(05:12):
, okay, this is the way you needto be, you need to act this
kind of way to be friends withthese kinds of people, and
that's just what you're going todo.
So it was, it was great, likeseventh grade was was fun and
junior high was great, until thefeelings just started to come
up more and more and more and Icouldn't really suppress them as
(05:33):
easily anymore.
And yeah, I don't know, I don'treally know what possessed me
to do it, but I just came out tomy best friend in ninth grade
on a random day and then fromthere I came out to more of my
friends and um came out to myparents a couple months later
and I went into high school,just fully out, and I mean, the
(05:56):
rest is history, I guess itsounds like from obviously the
like what you're saying, that um, you know, going from not
fitting into these like socialgroups that are that are set in
place.
Joey (06:10):
You know, like you were saying you can hang out with the
boys because you're toofeminine and you couldn't hang
out with the girls because youphysically were a guy.
So, like you know, you werestruggling to find a place and
then when you went to this newschool that you you kind of like
like when predetermined, howare you going to behave to fit
in with these certain groups ofpeople, or you know, and like it
sounded like you werestruggling with, um, like you
(06:33):
suppressing your own identityjust to fit in with these other
people and just to feel accepted, which is so sad to hear.
But like it sounds like by thetime you're in grade nine, you
were just kind of like I'm sickof this, like I need to just be
who I want to be, because it'shard showing up when you don't
want to be or you can't be whoyou're authentic self or your
genuine self.
(06:54):
To put that mask on every singleday of, like you know, hiding
who you need to be or officiallyare and who you it's, it's
exhausting it's so tiring rightand I find that, like you said,
like growing up in like more ofa conservative city, I guess
specifically, um, I find thatthere's more people like you
(07:17):
every single day in this entireworld that, like, show up and
put this mask on and try to besomeone they're not just because
they don't want to upset thenorm.
I guess yes definitely right,definitely.
Jackson (07:29):
And I mean, when you're that age I guess, like 13 to 16
, the last thing you want to dois stand out.
You just want to be likeeverybody else.
You kind of just want to fit in, not get picked.
Joey (07:43):
Yeah.
Jackson (07:43):
And you're kind of willing to do whatever it takes
to just make your life easierand I did that for years.
But it gets to a certain pointwhere, like, I'm just not really
being authentic to myself.
And is it worse to be picked onor to feel like nobody knows
who I really am?
Joey (08:03):
It's tiring yeah picked on or to feel like nobody knows
who I really am.
It's tiring and like, yeah, andlike you get sick of the person
that you're trying to be becausethat's not who you want to be
and it's also like for me, likeI remember in high school I was,
I was like you know, I didn'twant to take theater because I
knew that theater put me in thatbox of people that I was like
scared to be or like I was likeyourself, trying to identify
(08:23):
like a certain type of way.
So I was like scared to be orlike I was like yourself, trying
to identify like a certain typeof way.
So I was like I don't want to goto theater and draw too much
attention to myself or yes, I'mfunny and yes, I want to be like
you know, do all these coolstuff with all the cool people,
but at the end of the day, likeif I went into theater or if I
did something that would classme as like gay when I wasn't
(08:45):
ready, it's like a scary yeah,definitely yeah but um, it
sounds like by grade nine.
We're happy we've come out topretty much everyone like you
feel comfortable in yeah and yousaid you didn't want to draw
too much attention to yourselfprior.
So like what was the spotlightspotlight like for you moving
forward after grade nine?
Jackson (09:04):
like how did you feel like people reacted to you then
and so, moving forward, I feellike once I was out it was less
of a, because I feel like lotsof people have the same
experience being gay in thecloset.
It's always a question and atopic of conversation and it
feels like such a thing.
But I found that once I cameout it became less of a thing
(09:26):
because people already knew, sothere was nothing to really
question, right, and then youcan kind of base people's
intentions off of that and Ifound it easier to connect with
people because I didn't have tohide who I was and if they liked
me, they liked me.
If they didn't, then I don'treally care.
(09:46):
But yeah, no, high school wasgreat.
I feel like I got minimally.
I actually didn't really getbullied at all for being gay in
high school.
It was way less of a thing.
I also had a really great groupof friends in high school, so
that definitely helped.
But yeah, no, once I came out,I think it got a lot easier to
(10:06):
just live life in general do youum or did you have any um
people in your school that wereidentified as queer?
Joey (10:17):
or were there other people like, especially in high school
, like as that, like year orthat time in your life like I
feel like that's when mostpeople kind of come out and like
are confident to be who theywant to be, because they're
adolescent and going intoadulthood.
Do you feel like there wasanyone else there that you could
kind of like lean on or anyoneto support or no?
Jackson (10:34):
honestly.
No, I was one of the onlyopenly gay kids in high school.
I feel like lots of people havecome out since graduating, but
when I was in high school I wasone of the only ones, at least
to my knowledge but I had no gayfriends at all.
It was all mostly straightgirls and the odd straight guy.
Joey (10:57):
So you graduated, and then you Tell me about your first
job.
Jackson (11:03):
What did you?
Do my first job was atMcDonald's.
I was in.
I guess 11th grade and I workedhold on were you the drive-thru
king?
Joey (11:13):
yeah, I was the drive, I knew it.
Jackson (11:15):
I was the drive-thru king which, honestly, I feel
like that job has helped me alot, because your multitasking
skills to do that job have to beinsane, because you're
literally taking payments,taking orders all at the same
time.
It's so busy.
You're literally like what?
Like 15, 16 there's so muchgoing on.
(11:35):
People are also just dicks.
You, because you're working infast food you're dealing with
the worst, like the worst kindsof people like why are you
yelling at a 15 year old?
Joey (11:43):
you're 40 literally because it's your fries are too
salty, yeah, and I'm like I hada grip.
Jackson (11:48):
I can't help that deep but no, yeah, that was my first
job.
I worked there for like over ayear when I was in high school
and I saved up all my money andI went on a backpacking trip
after I graduated with the moneyI'd saved up from that job.
Cool, yeah, so it really paidoff.
Joey (12:03):
But did your friend just come to the drive-thru and like
wind you up and be likeJackson's working?
No?
Jackson (12:07):
not really.
I was kind of embarrassed thatI worked there so I didn't
really advertise it a ton.
Joey (12:12):
That's fair, but yeah, no that was my what was your Okay,
tell me your McDonald's meal.
What's your McDonald's order?
My McDonald's order Come on,what did you eat when you were
there?
Jackson (12:20):
I would literally just get nuggets or like a McDouble,
like nothing too crazy.
I love that.
What was yours?
Joey (12:28):
um, it's really funny.
When I worked there, I wasactually pescatarian, so I only
ate fish.
Jackson (12:33):
Oh really, yeah.
So oh, you got the filet offish I would really occasionally
eat that, but I also thatscares me what's she order?
Joey (12:46):
tell us about your coming out story.
So like who was the firstperson you came out to?
Jackson (12:52):
like how did you feel like before, slash afterwards we
were you ready to come out, ordid you feel like it was like
forced, or um, at this point Ifeel like I was ready, so the
first person I came out to wasmy friend naz, who I'm no longer
in contact with.
But love you girl, she's thebest maybe she'll hear this.
I hope she hears this if you'relistening, shout out oh um, but
(13:14):
it was in ninth grade and therewas this one specific guy who
took the bus home with us whowould just always bully me for
no reason, like he would justbully me.
But at this point I had gottento the point where if someone
bullied me I would stand up formyself.
So when he bullied me I wouldstand up for myself, and it was
just kind of like a little likeI don't know.
We had this like squabblesituation.
Joey (13:35):
I don't know.
Okay, hold on.
When you say stand up foryourself, what do you mean?
Do you?
Jackson (13:39):
mean like, like I would like fight back Physically.
Not physically, but likeverbally.
I'm not really a physicalfighter, but I'm definitely like
a words girly.
Okay, someone yelled at me.
My I was like no, I'm not gay.
No, honestly, like at thatpoint I was just fed up and I
was like it wasn't even aboutbeing gay he was just like mean
to everybody and I was likeyou're stupid, yeah.
(14:01):
But I got home from school oneday and I forget what had.
Oh, I actually do remember hehad like these little paint
balls and he broke one on mycoat and it was like this really
nice, like pea coat from Gap.
And I was like I was so pissedabout it and I was just texting
(14:21):
my friend about it and I waslike it's so stupid, like
whatever.
And then I remember I text herand I was like I don't know why
it matters if I'm gay, like thatshouldn't be a reason for him
to treat me like that.
And she goes wait, dot, dot,dot dot, did you just come out?
And I was like um, yeah, I didLike I'm gay whatever, and she
(14:45):
was like your seat could staywith me.
She literally told our entireprogram.
So maybe not shout out, naz,because that was a little bit
shady, but I came to school thenext day at lunch and we were
sitting in our like.
So basically at my middleschool the teachers would leave
their classrooms at lunch so youcould just sit in their
classrooms and we would alwaysgo to this one classroom and eat
(15:06):
.
And I remember because I'vealways been one for the
dramatics I was like pullingfriend one by one and I'd take
them out in the hallway and belike I have to tell you
something, okay, and they'd belike oh my god, like so happy
for you.
And then I pull my one friendand I'm like hey, like I'm gay.
And she's like I know.
(15:26):
Naz told me and I was like Naz,you shady.
But yeah, so that was the startof my coming out journey and
then after that, like I guess,moving into high school, it
wasn't as much of a thing forpeople, for new people to ask,
because they were meeting me asa new person, not someone they'd
already known.
(15:47):
So it wasn't really like oh,like coming out to them as gay.
Joey (15:50):
You'd already like confirmed your identity?
Yeah.
Jackson (15:54):
I mean, obviously people asked because I feel like
people do that back then I feellike people now just don't
really come up to you andthey're like oh, like random
question are you gay?
Joey (16:02):
Yeah, like what's your sexual orientation?
Jackson (16:04):
Yeah, like it's not a thing anymore.
But back then it would be likethe girl comes up to you at a
party and she goes.
I have to ask you something andlike don't be, mad and I'm like
, oh my god, I know where thisis going.
Joey (16:22):
And she goes are you gay?
And you're like yeah, and shegoes oh my god, that's so cute.
I love that.
Um, I know it's so, it's sotrue.
I'm like I've like I've alwayswanted a gay best friend.
I've always wanted a gay bestfriend.
Jackson (16:28):
I'm like wait what like ?
You're like, not me, but lovethat um.
And then I came out to myparents summer, going into grade
10.
Joey (16:38):
It was like a couple of weeks after I got my ear pierced
and wait, wait, hold on, holdon as to as which side did you
get here the?
Jackson (16:45):
left.
It was like a whole thing,literally.
You have to get the left, youhave to get the left what was?
Joey (16:50):
what was that about?
Like what?
I don't even and that was athing in england too.
It's like that.
Jackson (16:54):
That must have been a worldwide but I mean, I guess
before there were dating appsand stuff like that, you had to
do like kind of covert like hey,I'm gay, without actually being
like hey, I'm gay, if thatmakes sense.
No, I don't get that.
Joey (17:10):
So like in my face, you're like, he's not like, say you're
in public.
Jackson (17:14):
Okay, in the in the 90s , when it started to become less
stigmatized being gay, but itwas still like a little bit
stigmatized.
If you're out in public maybeit's not the safest to be like
I'm a gay person, but if youhave your right ear pierced, and
you see, another guy with hisright for his right ear pierced,
then you could be like that's anon-verbal way to be like hey,
like I'm gay, this is a safespace.
Joey (17:35):
Let's figure it out let's fuck, let's fuck like you know
what I'm saying you're like, hisright ear is pierced, my right,
yeah, yeah, take off yourclothes exactly so.
Jackson (17:43):
My parents did not want me to have that journey of the
right ear.
So then a couple weeks later,my like my parents would always
ask me kind of and well, my momwould honestly ask me.
In passing, my dad was justlike kind of, would turn a blind
eye to it, but I literally waslike dressing up in princess
dresses in preschool.
Like me and my best friendsiobhan in preschool, we would
(18:03):
get fake married but we'd bothwear dresses like it was a super
cute yeah but um, but yeah, mymom just would ask and ask and
ask and ask.
And then I I told her like I waslike yeah, I am.
And then it was this whole likedramatic thing.
And then my dad was like doingwork in the basement, and he
came upstairs and he's likelet's go for a drive.
(18:26):
And I was like, oh my God, soyour mom?
had obviously told your dad, mymom, told him yeah, so we get in
the car and we probably drivefor about half an hour in
silence, like no music, nothing,just like in the car and I'm
crying and I'm just like, oh mygod, kate, this is so awkward.
Joey (18:43):
Were you crying because you knew that he already knew I
was just crying because it wasreally uncomfortable and
emotional.
Jackson (18:48):
How old were you?
I was 15.
Okay, yeah.
And then he goes, so what, youlike guys?
And I'm like yeah, and he goes,so like you want to be with a
guy, and in my head I'm like,okay, well, that's kind of the
whole point of it all, and I'mlike yeah, and he just goes,
(19:10):
okay, well, I don't really getthat, but okay, and then just
keeps driving and like that wasit, and we probably drove for
like another half hour and I'mjust like he like, and we both
like to quiet in silence, likeinside, like we probably said
he's processing.
Joey (19:25):
For sure, like it like yeah so, and then we got home
and I like scurried up to mybedroom and I was like awkward,
awkward, awkward, and then yeah,it was like, fine, I scurried,
I scurried up to my bedroom andI was like, ooh, awkward,
awkward, awkward.
And then it was like, fine,scurried, I scurried up to my
bed.
I literally scurried Like I ranup the stairs on like my hands
and knees.
Jackson (19:40):
But um, yeah, no, after that it was like my dad took a
while to come around Like hejust wasn't super warmed up to
the idea yet so nor did heprobably like understand like
what actually meant.
Yeah, which like to be fair,honestly, in high school I feel
like it made us butt heads a lotjust because you're a kid and
(20:01):
you don't really get that yourparents are being parents for
the first time and being peoplefor the first time.
But now that I am older I'mlike, okay, honestly, it could
have been a lot worse.
Like he was a football guygrowing up like very like
masculine like he was born inEdmonton he was born in.
Well, he was born in Montreal,actually, and then he moved to
Edmonton when he was a child.
(20:24):
But um, so brought up in like avery conservative environment,
exactly right and like he wasthe man of the house, like it
was just a very like masculinesetting that he grew up in.
And so imagine, your firstbornson comes out to you as gay.
You have no gay friends, youknow no gay people you don't
even really know anything aboutbeing a gay person.
(20:44):
Obviously that's jarring atfirst for sure.
So I do truly understand thatit took time for him to come
around and now that I'm an adultmyself, I'm like, okay, that is
a lot to process as a parent.
But obviously in high schoolI'm like my dad's a dick.
Joey (20:59):
I hate him like he's the worst, but I'm like he was just
like doing the best he couldtotally, um, and like back then
too, like we weren't like like,as a society resourceful to like
give any information, and likebeing gay meant like one thing
only a society resourceful tolike giving information, and
like being gay meant like onething only.
Jackson (21:15):
And like exactly.
Joey (21:16):
Not to like, not to mention, like I don't want to be
rude or overspeak here but likeyou're 15.
Yeah, Like, and you go to your,your parents, and you're like
I'm gay and I like men, andthey're like they don't
understand that.
Jackson (21:29):
Also, I had literally been vegetarian like five times.
I'd gone through five differentsports that I thought I was
going to stick with forever,like I, was just so all over the
board.
Yeah, that to them it's like,okay, this is just another thing
.
Jackson's going to do for likea couple of weeks for attention,
Like really like honestly.
Joey (21:44):
Yeah.
Jackson (21:45):
But obviously as I got older he saw just me as Jackson
and not as his like gay son,which is nice and like.
Obviously we're not gonna sitdown and talk about my dating
life which I don't even think Iwould want to anyways but I can
tell him if I'm seeing somebodyor like would feel comfortable
(22:06):
introducing a guy to him and notthinking like okay, he's gonna
puke and like cry about it.
Joey (22:12):
You know what I mean do you think that that's like an
internalized homophobic responsefor us, because obviously your
dad's not gonna puke and cry ifyou're like, but like, but like
you're responding that way.
Do you think we do that becauseI do the same thing, like I
love my dad to bits and he's metmy partner, but like getting me
to that stage and like nothaving that like I'm like like
(22:32):
how's my dad going to like freakout or be like why is there
another dude in my house Like Ihave two brothers too.
I'm like it's all my poor mom,my poor mom.
Jackson (22:40):
She's like it's all fucking men.
I think it's just that for solong I convinced myself that my
dad wasn't okay with it, when Ithink he was just kind of
figuring out what it was, that Ijust assumed that he would be
disgusted by it.
But now I'm like, realistically.
I know that if I'm happy, mydad is so happy and proud of me.
Joey (23:03):
Oh, yeah, yeah um, I think it's as well like another thing
like I don't want to like, illspeak one more time, but I want
to say that, like, I think it'svery quick, we're very quick as
like a society to like and likemaybe, as like a queer community
to like.
Be like edmonton is like, notprogressive, because we're
(23:25):
talking of when you lived there.
Jackson (23:27):
Four years ago and like exactly prior right, like maybe
it's.
It's very slow, but it is goingit is right, like you said to
me, like mike, there's, there'sone gay bar.
Yeah, that's something I meanstill, but even just the world
in general, the way it'sprogressing.
And I mean I'm not that old,but I was 15, 10 years ago.
(23:47):
I came out 10 years ago andjust thinking about the media
and like the media I wasconsuming, especially like there
was no gay artists.
All of the music was very likehetero centric.
There were no queer tv showsthat I like watched and related
to.
There was nobody that I.
There was no media that I couldconsume that really related to
(24:09):
my experience.
But I feel like now there's somuch more and it's not in a way
where it's one gay person on theshow.
Joey (24:16):
That's like the token gay friend right, it's like he's
like so sassy and he goesshopping and he's like, yeah,
like it's not that kind of thing, it's not like bias, yeah it's
like a queer coming of age whereit's like okay, I'm gay and I'm
in high school and I'mnavigating that.
Jackson (24:27):
Or an artist like chaparone, for example, who's
massive right now, holy shit,and has music that it's actually
like wow.
I've gone through something sosimilar to this and I've never
heard it expressed in a waythat's like so beautiful I know,
I wow, yeah, I, I never thoughtabout that way.
Joey (24:45):
I got really sidetracked when you said chapel ron I
fucking love it I, I myboyfriend's like, why do you
play me so much?
I'm like I just I just fuckwith it, like I just I think,
she's so awesome.
She's awesome um ideal guestone day.
Jackson (24:59):
Maybe she'll be in my, in my living room, we'll
manifest it yeah, we should, andmaybe she'll talk about her
experience.
Joey (25:06):
Totally, it's so nice and positive to hear your experience
and you know how you came outand I love it.
I think it's like a, it's afull circle moment, you know,
like we totally also reliving itand getting to share it because
, um, for you, it seems likeyour identity, you, you, at a
young age you were definitelylike I know who I am and who I
want to be, and I need to, like,lose the stereotypes of all
(25:28):
these people around me, and Ineed to just lean into who.
I want to be moving forward andI want to know more about your
current relationship status anddating in Vancouver, I guess,
okay.
Jackson (25:46):
I'm currently single.
Joey (25:47):
Okay.
Jackson (25:49):
Mingling.
Joey (25:50):
Okay.
Jackson (25:50):
Yeah, living my best single life at the moment.
Joey (25:54):
Okay, and when you, so you're single right now.
So how do you meet people inour queer community and like is
it organic, do you feel like yougo to like bars, or is it more
of an online dating situationLike?
What kind of platforms do youuse?
Jackson (26:11):
So I do go to the bars occasionally, not super
frequently.
One of my close friends isactually single right now as
well, so I think that kind ofit's always fun when your friend
is single with you, becausethen you can kind of just bounce
off each other and like wingmanand yeah, go out and have fun,
totally yeah.
So now that he's single, I'vebeen going out more, just
(26:31):
because it's it's easier to dowhen your friend is single.
It's like, yeah, it's more fun.
But, um, I also use some of theapps, which can be great, and
I've had really good experiences, but I've also had not the best
experiences, so I think it'sjust well.
I don't even know, I guessthat's what you make of it.
Joey (26:52):
Okay, I'm gonna pry, I want to know.
Tell me, I don't want to know,like, just because for like
humor, like skip that, but likeI want to know.
You said and I saw you an eyeroll um, oh, like a bad
experience.
Yeah, we, I want to educatepeople on, obviously, the, the
apps and stuff, like they'revery accessible nowadays and I
(27:15):
find they're, they can be agreat tool.
But obviously I saw you saystraight away like I've had a
bad experience yeah tell meabout a bad experience that
potentially you want to share.
Jackson (27:23):
So one that sticks out in my mind is this was when I
first moved to vancouver likewithin a couple of months of me
moving here.
So I was 21 and obviously Imoved to the city.
It was covid when I moved hereas well, so clubs weren't open
it was really hard to meetpeople, so right.
I was on tinder mostly to justmeet people, go on dates,
(27:44):
connect, just get to know thecity.
So I matched with this guy.
He was 31, which is alreadylike okay, that's like a bit old
for a 21 year old.
Whatever we're chatting, he'scute.
He asked me to go for drinksand a bite to eat.
I'm like, okay, perfect.
And he makes this comment,which in hindsight, I'm like,
but he makes a comment which, inhindsight, I'm like.
But he makes a comment and he'slike, yeah, like dating here is
(28:06):
so bad.
The last time I went on a datewith this guy, he like told me I
was fat and like left the dateearly and I was like that's
really fucked up.
Like you do not look fat inyour photos, like you're just
like a normal person nothing,not wait so this.
Joey (28:19):
He told you this online.
He told me you weren't actuallyface to face this.
He told you this online.
He told me this online.
You weren't actually face toface no.
Jackson (28:24):
so he told me this online.
And in my head I was like wait,that's actually so mean.
Like he just looked like anormal, like average body type
guy Right.
And I was like, okay, well, dayof the date comes and we go to
(28:45):
the flying pig in yale town andhe's like I, I have a table on
the patio and I'm like, okay,great, so I get there, and I'm
like mine is like five tablestoo.
Yeah, literally I'm likescanning the patio and I'm like,
are you here?
he's like yeah, I'll wave hestarts waving and I'm like, oh,
my god that there's no way.
Like there is no way, that's thesame person.
So I sit down and he has thesame face.
So I know it's the same person,but he just looks different,
(29:07):
like quite a bit older and likeit just seems like these
pictures were taken in his primeand he's no longer in his prime
.
So I sit down and immediatelyI'm like okay, it's an awkward
position because you don't wantto be like I'm leaving, like you
(29:27):
want to be nice and be likeokay, I'm going to at least sit
and have a drink with you,because at this point you're
leaving based on looks.
Yeah, exactly, I'm like I'mgoing to sit down and I'm going
to see how this goes, because Iwasn't really going with the
intention to date somebody oranything like that.
I'm just going to meet people,so maybe he's a really nice guy
(29:48):
and we become friends.
You're new here, you want tomake connections, exactly
exactly.
So we start talking and he'sjust the most pretentious,
douchey guy ever, like I willsay.
I remember bringing up one ofmy friends, rowan, and he goes
oh, I know rowan.
And I'm like oh no, you don't.
She just moved here a month ago.
And he goes oh, I thought youmeant Rowan.
Pulls out his phone and she haslike 100K on Instagram.
I'm like, ugh, you areliterally gross.
Yeah, it's not what you want, sothen we're sitting having our
(30:12):
drinks and he says something andhe goes yeah, I'm like I'm
turning 37 soon and I go 37?
Your Tinder said you were 31.
And 37 your tinder said youwere 31 and he goes oh yeah,
(30:33):
that's so weird.
I just don't know how to changemy age on there.
And I'm like, okay, I'mliterally 21, 20 fucking one.
Joey (30:35):
And this 37 year old who lied about his appearance and
his age by six years, is like ona date with me, right now and
like you know, at that time, atthat point, to like him, like,
as he's 31 online and stuff likethere's no long term, like
sorry not you know, but likeyou're not going in with it,
like knowing that you want todate him and like it's long term
for you, because, like you knowthat, like, the age gap isn't a
thing for you right, so um, but.
Jackson (30:56):
And then him saying 37 like yeah, I was out at your
lord.
So at that point I was like,hey, like I need to go.
And then, yeah, I was like,honestly, I think I'm gonna call
it after these drinks I'm sopooped.
And he's like are you sure likewe should go somewhere else?
Joey (31:12):
I'm like no but you politely stayed on the date I
politely stayed.
Jackson (31:15):
I had probably like two or three drinks, because we got
food as well, like we gotappies to share.
Joey (31:20):
I have a question what did you split the bill, did you?
Jackson (31:23):
I split it.
I split it because it was justlike I don't know, like okay
that's fair yeah but, also Idon't, when I go on a date I, if
I'm having a really good time,like I'll get the bill, or if
it's like I don't know what thevibe is like we can split it, or
if he gets it, that's great,but like that's not really a big
thing for me.
It's not like financial, yeahright, right, right, like.
Joey (31:46):
But like what do you expect to?
Do you have a conversation withthat, the person end of the day
?
Do you say like, hey, like,should we split the bill?
Or do you expect, like what?
What is your expectation, Iguess?
Jackson (31:56):
it just depends what the vibe is when the bill comes,
like if it's, if it's.
If I'm having a lot of fun,I'll just be like I'll grab the
bill like.
Joey (32:02):
Honestly, what about if I say it's a $300 bill?
Jackson (32:04):
okay, well, no, I was also gonna say usually when I go
on a first date, it's usuallylike a drinks place okay, so the
way.
I like to do it is if I getdrinks at the first place and
they get drinks at the secondplace, that's great.
Or like I really like the 50-50thing, like if I'm seeing
somebody like I'll get this, youget that.
It doesn't really have to be alike keep track of it thing, but
as long as I feel like it's amutual, a mutually beneficial
(32:26):
kind of situation, right then,that's totally fine by me.
I don't mind getting a dinner,or if I know you're gonna get
the next one, yeah.
But if I find that like I wasseeing this guy and I was
literally paying for, everythingand I'm like, okay, honestly,
I'm not your sugar daddy also,I'm not in a place to be paying
for everything and I'm like okay, honestly, I'm not your sugar
daddy.
Also, I'm not in a place to bepaying for literally everything
(32:47):
I hate that.
Joey (32:48):
Yeah, um people that aren't financially conscious
turns me off no, I know, I'mlike I'm, like we're not rich
unless like you're likefinancially like stable and like
ready to like vancouver is avery expensive city to like be
able to live in so like oh yeah,drinks and stuff like,
especially if you're going out,even for drinks, cocktails are
like 16 dollars if you both havelike four or five.
(33:09):
That's a pretty hefty bill.
That's crazy.
Yeah, it's so expensive.
And then it's like tip tax andeverything else?
Jackson (33:13):
yeah, exactly.
And then it's like, let's gosomewhere else for food.
It's like, oh my god, am Ipaying for food as well?
Joey (33:18):
like jesus christ the the struggles of online dating and
like obviously someone likeimposing, as you know, using old
photos and like lying abouttheir age.
They're very real in like thisday and age and yeah honestly,
it's quite.
It's more embarrassing for theperson that's doing it, like you
know, read the room yeah, likeread the room, like what do you
expect when I come and see you?
Jackson (33:38):
it is read the room.
But then you also kind of feelicky because you're like I
literally just got catfished.
Honestly, the thing about me isI just hate having my time
wasted Right and I am so, so, sobusy with working all the time
and my friends and just so muchon the go that if I carve out an
evening for somebody and thenit goes like that, I'm like, oh,
there's so many other things Icould have done with this
(34:00):
evening.
Totally.
Joey (34:09):
Besides getting catfished by an almost 40, year old man.
I feel these are a constantstruggle for online dating, like
, no matter who you are, youknow people you know shave a
couple years off, or they usetheir best photos or a good
editing app, you know.
So, um, that's just socialmedia and like social platforms
for you in general, leaning intosocial platforms.
Um, I want to ask you.
I have 10 platforms onlinedating and I want to know um how
(34:35):
you categorize them okay um,and like out of 10 I guess, like
if how you use them, so let'sstart with hinge first.
So where would that sit?
Like like how you use them, solet's start with Hinge first.
Jackson (34:44):
So where would that sit ?
Joey (34:45):
Like.
Would you use the platform?
Jackson (34:47):
I've used Hinge before.
Joey (34:50):
Successful, or like how did you find it?
Jackson (34:53):
Actually the last guy I was kind of seeing.
I met on Hinge and he was asweetie so that was good, but I
feel like Hinge is one of theleast sleazy.
Joey (35:00):
Okay.
Jackson (35:01):
I feel like people are more on there looking for dates
as opposed to hookups, which isgood, so maybe I would rate
Hinge at a 2 or a 3.
Joey (35:12):
Out of 10?
.
Jackson (35:13):
Yeah.
Joey (35:15):
Okay.
Jackson (35:16):
I would rate it in the top tier.
Joey (35:18):
Oh, so 1 is best.
Jackson (35:19):
Yeah, 1 is best, 10 is worst.
Joey (35:21):
So Hinge, wow, she's pretty up there.
Okay, so what about Bumble?
Jackson (35:27):
I've actually never used Bumble.
I feel Bumble Bumble seems likekind of random.
Joey (35:32):
It's very female-driven.
Jackson (35:34):
Yeah, okay, right, because the girl messages first
on Bumble.
Right, yeah, like, if you likeeach other, you can't actually
message them, unless the girlmessages you first.
Joey (35:52):
Okay, I love that it will expire.
I do think it's good but likethe platform's not really like
forward for, like gay men, yeah,yeah.
Jackson (35:55):
So, unlike what's, if you're a lesbian couple, free
reign.
It's a free-for-all baby, likeI don't know, I don't know.
Joey (35:58):
Okay, so, bumble, what are we saying?
10?
Jackson (36:02):
Yeah, I guess like 10.
Somewhere in the bottom tier,for sure.
Joey (36:05):
Not going to use that right.
Okay, Then what about eHarmony?
Jackson (36:10):
eHarmony also bottom tier.
I feel like that's so boomer.
Joey (36:15):
Live, laugh, love, yeah, okay, what about?
Jackson (36:20):
Tinder, tinder.
Okay, so here's the thing okay,come on I feel like tinder is
one of my favorites, I'm notgonna lie.
I think that I think that theinterface is really cringy,
which is super random to say butlike it just looks like a video
game.
Like it looks like a game whichit kind of is, if you want it to
(36:43):
be, but um, but yeah, I thinkthat tinder has a good mix of
people who are just therelooking for like something
casual and people who are therelooking for like dates or
friends, or I feel like it'seasy to meet people on there.
Joey (36:57):
Oh no, that's bumble.
It has like the friends option,like it's like bumble, like,
yeah, I think that's bumble.
Jackson (37:01):
Oh yeah, sorry, I'm getting confused, I don't even
know, but um, yeah, I feel likethe friends option, like Bumble,
like friends.
Yeah, I think that's Bumble.
Oh yeah, sorry I'm gettingconfused, I don't even know.
But yeah, I feel like the guyson Tinder are also more
attractive than the guys onHinge.
I don't know why, but yeah, Ifeel like Hinge honestly doesn't
have the best in my opinion.
Maybe I'll say guys who are notmy type on Hinge.
Joey (37:17):
Interesting.
Okay, so where do we want toput Tinder?
Jackson (37:20):
I'd say maybe like number three.
Actually, I'm going to swapHinge and Tinder.
I'm going to say Tinder numbertwo, hinge number three.
Joey (37:26):
Okay, I want to know what your number one is then.
Okay, so what about?
Jackson (37:32):
I actually don't know what my Okay.
Wow, I might have to move somethings around, wow.
Joey (37:37):
What about Matchcom?
Jackson (37:40):
Again very boomer matchcom again very boomer.
Not wouldn't say that I'vedabbled.
Also, I think, any of the onesthat you have to go on your
computer to like I feel likethat's a computer one I think
they have an app.
Joey (37:51):
Oh, do they have an app?
They must do.
People don't use theircomputers.
I guess, I guess, I guess Ijust think of e-harmony having
like commercials and I know 2010when online dating was just
starting, yeah, so to me I'mgonna put that at like nine ten
do you remember when there'slike the e-harmony, like um
commercials, when it was likeand we found love on e-harmony
(38:12):
and it was like the couples andit was very much giving like
divorcee, yeah, like giving it asecond shot might not last.
Yeah, um, okay, what about?
Jackson (38:22):
squirt.
I've never used squirt okay.
Joey (38:26):
So for context, squirt is a gay male app.
Jackson (38:32):
Okay, right I could be wrong, I don't know.
Interesting, it's been yearssince I've used any of these
apps, so yeah, just kidding, Idid the hand flip, just kidding.
Joey (38:40):
Okay, what about Scruff?
Jackson (38:43):
Scruff I also haven't used.
I think Scruff is more for likemask for mask vibes right.
Joey (38:49):
I don't know, I think, so I've never used it.
Well, the name Scruff.
Jackson (38:52):
Seems like it's for someone scruffy which.
Joey (38:54):
I'm definitely not.
Yeah, no.
Jackson (38:57):
But yeah, I've never used that one.
Joey (38:59):
Okay, okay, that one okay, um okay, so then we're gonna,
we're gonna bring in grindergrinder good, old grinder good
old grinder.
Okay, talk to me about that.
Jackson (39:09):
I mean, like, stereotypically, grinder is
obviously like you're moresleazy, like it's kind of very
sleazy it's more of an immediatehookup yeah, it can be used as
that can you match someone andmeet good connections, I'm sure
you can yeah but um it'stypically in the within the
community.
Joey (39:24):
I feel like it's more like hookup vibes or like you're hot
, let's get drinks and then fuckyeah um, it's pretty direct
yeah, for sure, it's actuallyvery direct.
Jackson (39:33):
I was like drinks, that's crazy.
But yeah, no, I've definitelygone through eras where I've
like dabbled in that for sure,but it is exactly what you said.
Joey (39:49):
Very sleazy, very transactional, very like what do
you do?
Like, when I was saying drinks,I meant like drink your piss.
Oh yeah, Question mark.
Jackson (39:53):
Question mark.
Yeah, no, it's, it's, I'm dead.
It's kind of crazy.
I feel like sometimes I'll getit if I'm like, for example, I
was just in montreal so I waslike you know what I'm gonna get
grinder, like I'm here for theweekend, like right, it's pride,
like yeah, whatever, it's animmediate, let's see what's
happening I didn't end upmeeting anybody, but actually no
, I met a guy for drinksliterally just drinks which is
(40:13):
like random.
But um, yeah, the messages youget on there are actually like
very jarring.
Like like you'll literally geta message and it's like, hey,
you're close.
I'm on my bed with my pantsdown, um, my front door's
unlocked, like just come in.
And it's like, um no, thatsounds really scary.
Actually I'm not.
(40:34):
I'm so good yeah but yeah, sofor that I would put grinder at,
maybe like a six.
Oh okay, because it's it can befun.
Yeah, she can sit like a six.
Oh okay, because it can be fun.
Yeah, she can sit at a six,she's fun sometimes, but not
something you want to have onyour phone all the time.
Joey (40:49):
Yeah, fair, totally got that.
I was going to say plenty offish, but I feel like I don't
know her.
I kind of know where you standwith that Poff, what Poff it's
called what poff it's called.
Oh, what the fuck I didn't knowit had an acronym.
Wait, you didn't know, it wascalled poff I didn't know.
Jackson (41:06):
It was referred to as poff plenty of fish I didn't
know people were even talkingabout it in general, let alone.
Joey (41:12):
There's a huge age gap here and it's, uh, it's
definitely showing right now asolid five years.
My next question, and thismight be my last, one, okay, I
want to know.
So I actually want to share um,since we were talking about
grinder, like online dating, umlike in the, in the queer
community, we kind of likecategorize ourselves and and
(41:35):
like use as tribes, as it'scalled, in grinder terms um, and
I wrote a couple down here,okay, but, um, let's talk about
them and then, like, I guesslike how we define them so
providing more education tototally potentially, people that
don't know what these are.
Jackson (41:53):
A little educational moment.
Joey (41:55):
I love it yeah, okay, so a power bottom.
Yes, we're gonna startaggressive okay.
Jackson (42:01):
So to me, a power bottom is just somebody who live
, laugh, loves bottoming.
Joey (42:09):
Yep, they're just always that's it, it's always bottoming
and like they're, they're alsolike, very determined to be I
guess the one in charge maybe-yeah, yeah, but like they're a
bottom, like a dominant bottom,yes, oh yeah, dominant, that's a
, that's a tribe, I didn't writedown dom, dom, yeah, yeah, so
(42:31):
they're.
They're a power bottom.
They are super strong.
Jackson (42:36):
They're not super imagine just therapizing them.
They're super strong.
I'm gonna fuck you like.
Joey (42:45):
That's not what I meant.
What I meant is uh they takecharge with their hole yes, they
do for sure yep, okay, so thena power top would be, I guess,
the reverse yeah, like adominant, top Dominant top.
Yeah, the person that's kind ofgoing to call the shots.
Jackson (43:04):
Yeah.
Joey (43:04):
But they're going to fuck you.
Yes, awesome, okay, and thenwe've got a jock which obviously
most North American personrefers to.
Jackson (43:14):
Like a gym guy.
Gym bro.
Yeah, like a muscle man.
Joey (43:22):
Yeah, is that what you say ?
Jackson (43:22):
jock is maybe to me a jock would be like a guy that's
like a little bit muscular andlike post a picture at the gym,
yeah like stereotypical, likeman, like body, like yeah works
out, not like crazy crazy bodybut has like an athletic build
sports yeah, yeah, like a yeahsporty boy, yay sports um, and
then we've got Otter.
(43:43):
Otter.
Joey (43:45):
This one's hard for me to like, so I feel like I kind of
fall into this.
Jackson (43:51):
I don't really know which one I am, I could see you
as an otter.
I think otter is like a babybear.
Joey (43:57):
A baby bear.
Jackson (43:58):
So like a bear.
Joey (43:59):
I feel like baby bear should be what it's called.
Jackson (44:01):
Maybe, but it's called maybe but it's not.
No, it's not, but I feel like abear is like an older, bigger
version of an otter okay, like Ifeel like an otter can
transition into a bear perhaps,but otter is like teetering, so
like it's teetering, it's like a.
Joey (44:20):
It's like a bear who still has their youth, and like
they're not big also, like notas hairy, not as hairy, not as
big okay yeah, because I feel,like a bear is like a big boy, a
big man yeah, yeah, like alittle bit more stockier, yeah,
um, yeah, maybe it has like alittle bit of a belly, like a
dad bod kind of situation.
Jackson (44:39):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
And then an otter would be likesomeone with maybe like less
hair, maybe a little slimmer.
Joey (44:41):
Yeah, a little bit of a belly, like a dad bod kind of
situation.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And then an otter would be likesomeone with maybe like less
hair, maybe a little slimmeryeah, a little bit youthful oh
wait.
Okay.
So that's bear otter jock powerbottom, power top.
What about so, daddy?
Jackson (44:59):
obviously very daddy obviously speaks for itself um.
Joey (45:03):
We've got twink, twink twink is, twink is like a like a
(45:26):
hairless, thin, hairless sothere are sphinx pretty much
yeah yeah, adjacent for sure,slash sphinx yeah, exactly
that's where it derived from.
I wonder where it did come fromthat word I have no idea like
is it the candy bar?
Jackson (45:41):
I don't know twinkie.
Twinkie Maybe, I don't know.
Joey (45:44):
I don't know.
And then we've got twunk, Iguess Twunk.
Jackson (45:49):
Twunk is like.
So in the same sense that.
Joey (45:54):
What is a twunk?
Jackson (45:55):
So Twunk is to twink, as bear is to otter.
Do we see where I'm going withthis?
Joey (46:04):
It's like a off-branch.
Jackson (46:07):
Not necessarily off-branch, just like an
evolution, let's say so.
A twink can evolve into a twunk, in the same way that an otter
can evolve into a bear.
It's like the older version.
Joey (46:22):
Okay, so a twunk would be ken, like barbie and ken, if
we're stereotyping.
See, here's what gets kind ofstinky, because I feel like
because you can, but ken is likea jock.
Jackson (46:32):
No, oh yeah, you're right, twunk would be like I
would.
I would also.
Oh my gosh, you know who twunkwould be frankie grande, really,
because he's not a twinkanymore.
He's like 40.
Is he 40, I don't know.
Joey (46:45):
He's like older I hope he's not listening.
He's like that's not how Icategorize my frankie if you're
listening to this.
You will always be a twink inmy heart yeah, I'll honestly
respond to the podcast, ifyou're listening, and tell us
what you want to be.
Let us know how you feel.
Jackson (46:59):
Let us know if you want to come on with chapel.
Even we could do a doubleheader, oh, yeah, we should
feature him that would be great.
Reach out and then we'll haveyour people, have your people
contact our people and we'll setsomething up yeah, um, but no,
I would.
I.
I would lovingly refer to himas a twunk okay, that's fair or
does twink just transcend age?
(47:21):
Who knows?
I feel like that's the way.
Joey (47:24):
Is that the way?
Jackson (47:25):
you're portraying it.
Joey (47:26):
But I don't know, I don't know either, like I feel like
maybe I feel like twink, likeyou said, definitely has like a
younger vibe to it.
Jackson (47:33):
Yeah.
And like they're hairless,maybe Like if you're 40 and
calling yourself a twink?
I think that's a little bitlike.
Eh yeah, boredy, and callingyourself a twink, I think that's
a little bit like.
Yeah, like, move on, you knowit's me.
Joey (47:47):
I'm scared, it's me.
No, you're, you could.
What tribe am I?
What do I?
If you were to see me in thestreet not knowing I have lazy
hair removal.
Jackson (47:58):
I would definitely say power bottom.
No, just kidding I would say.
I would say either otter ortwunk otter or twunk but I would
say maybe more twunk, because Idon't know if twink or no.
I would say maybe more otter,because I don't know if twinks
have facial hair.
Do they um?
Joey (48:17):
what about twunk?
Okay, see, here's where we getlike this is where we get into
that nitty-gritty it's reallywhat you make of it.
How do I decide what I?
Where do I fall?
Jackson (48:25):
no, I know it's a lot it's like you come out and then
you're like oh my god, whattribe am I in?
And it's this whole otherjourney.
But what would you categorizeme as you?
Joey (48:34):
give me twinkie vibe.
Jackson (48:36):
Yeah, I've been told the eye roll, I've been told.
But I've been told that by likestraight men, which I feel like
is derogatory.
Joey (48:45):
But I feel like this is gonna you're gonna hate me for
saying this but oh god at yourage now at 25, when do you?
I'm aging out, I know I'm agingout.
Jackson (48:55):
I think there's like these weird years between 25 and
, let's say, 34 where it's likeam I a twink, am I a twunk, am I
an otter, am I a bear?
You're just kind of a freeagent.
You just cling to what feelsright you're not a bear no, well
, I know, not yet at least.
Joey (49:14):
But no, I don't think that's my journey, but um, yeah,
I'm definitely on the, on thepathway, pathway to twunk jack,
based on your experiences andwho you are today, what advice
would you give someone who ismaybe struggling with their
identity, or is struggling tomaybe come out as gay or
bisexual, or doesn't really knowhow to communicate in their
(49:39):
current social setting, in theircurrent?
Jackson (49:42):
social setting.
So honestly, as cliche as itsounds, I would say that it
really does get better.
And the older you get and everyyear that goes by, you will
become more and more comfortablewith who you are and the space
you occupy in this world andyou'll find people who love you
and care about you as a personand not as your sexuality or
(50:07):
anything like that.
And, yeah, there's people outthere just waiting to love you
and totally you can only findthat when you really love
yourself.
Joey (50:16):
Oh very true.
I support that.
I, yeah, I feel that it's onceyou really start to like feel
you know who you want to be.
It's start.
It's time to start sharing it.
You know, and surroundingyourself by people that like
love you for who you are, um,that you feel comfortable around
, is like maybe like a keycomponent.
(50:38):
That concludes our episodetoday with jackson.
Jackson (50:42):
Thanks for being here thank you so much for having me.
I had so much fun good, good.
Joey (50:48):
I'm glad thanks for sharing your experiences and um
for letting everyone get to knowa little piece of you that
maybe they didn't know.
Jackson (50:53):
Of course, thanks for having me on and letting me yap.
Joey (50:56):
Yeah, we love a good yap remember that new episodes go
live every wednesday.
Tune in on whatever platformyou choose and we'll see you
there.
Yay, ciao, bye.
welcome back to another episode with I'm not gay.
You are with myself, joey, yourhost, and today we have jackson
hi how are you?
Jackson (00:23):
I'm doing so good, how are you?
Joey (00:25):
Good, I'm so glad you're here Me too, yeah, it's nice to
have a different perspective andbring someone in and, you know,
put them in the hot seat andask them to answer all the
questions.
Nervous, I want to chat realquick and just let everyone know
, so I'm going to bring it up.
How do we know each other?
(00:50):
I feel like we met at not aglory hole um, we met at the
bathhouse.
Jackson (00:55):
No, just kidding, we actually met at work.
We did yeah again.
Joey (01:00):
Um I, we worked together in a restaurant in vancouver, if
you haven't gathered.
Uh, hospitality is like I feellike a surviving grace here in
vancouver and yeah, everyonedoes it literally um, but we did
, we worked together um.
I recently left to pursue thepodcast um, and I did mention to
jackson that I would love tohave him as a guest and share
(01:22):
his experiences and I was realgung-ho about coming on me
straight away messaging you like, come to my house.
Like, please, let me on pleaseyeah, I'm happy you're here, um,
and I'd love to get into withyou.
Let's do it.
Let's talk early years okay sowhere are you from originally?
(01:42):
Obviously I I know you've justyou moved to Vancouver four
years ago.
Talk to me about early years ofJackson and how you kind of
found and understood who youwanted to be and you know, do
you feel like you were born gayor do you feel like you kind of
came into your era Like what,who supported you and how did
you come to terms with that?
Jackson (02:08):
Okay, like what.
Who supported you and how didyou come to terms with that?
Um, okay, so I was born inedmonton and I feel like that in
itself is like its own thing.
Growing up in alberta, as, likea gay person was definitely not
ideal, but I mean I made itwork.
Joey (02:22):
I why do you think that, like what's for someone that's
listening to this?
It doesn't know what edmontonis, or?
Jackson (02:29):
it's a city.
Joey (02:30):
It's a city within a province right, but it's in the
province of alberta.
Oh yeah, yeah, and it's, andit's cold.
Jackson (02:35):
That's all, that's all I know it's cold, it's quite
conservative, um like justsocially, and yeah, there's just
not a ton of progression yeah.
I mean, there's quite a bit ofracial diversity, but in terms
of diversity with sexualorientation and just people
being different, there wasn't alot of people that I could look
(02:59):
up to or anybody who had a verysimilar experience to me.
Um, but I I feel like I knewthat I was gay from a very, very
, very young age, like before Ieven knew what being gay was.
I've always been attracted toboys, and the first boy I can
remember being attracted to it'sso vivid in my mind was at this
(03:23):
girl's birthday party inpreschool.
So I was probably like five andone of the girls had brought
their older brother and he hadlike this little rat tail and I
just remember being like oh mygod, the hairstyle.
Joey (03:41):
We have to say the rat tail, the hairstyle it just
really did it for me.
Jackson (03:45):
And then we all sat down to watch a movie and he was
sitting in front of me and Iwas like, wow, it's just really
doing it for me trying to grabit trying to grab it fantasizing
about it and yeah, and thenever since then I was just kind
of like okay, that's, that's itfor me.
And then I guess, once Istarted learning what being gay
was and that it wasn'tnecessarily quote unquote the
(04:08):
right way to be, I started tosuppress the feelings a little
bit more.
Joey (04:13):
How did you?
How do you feel like growing upin a conservative city?
How did you get to the gay?
Wasn't that you werecomfortable being not the right
way to be in quotations, kind oflike?
How did you get there, like?
Jackson (04:27):
it honestly took a while.
So I would say like earlyelementary school was great, I
had so much fun, I had reallygreat friends.
And then, I don't know why, butin grade five no, in grade six,
actually a flip just kind ofswitched.
I feel like that's also whenkids start kind of going through
puberty and becoming a littlebit more mean.
And it was just like Jackson'sa girl, jackson's gay, like I
(04:51):
just felt so targeted byeverybody and the girls didn't
want to hang out with me becauseI was a boy and the guys didn't
want to hang out with mebecause I was too girly.
So I didn't really have anyfriends and I just hated going
to school and it sucked, and soI switched schools for seventh
grade and I kind of had it in myhead going into the school like
(05:12):
, okay, this is the way you needto be, you need to act this
kind of way to be friends withthese kinds of people, and
that's just what you're going todo.
So it was, it was great, likeseventh grade was was fun and
junior high was great, until thefeelings just started to come
up more and more and more and Icouldn't really suppress them as
(05:33):
easily anymore.
And yeah, I don't know, I don'treally know what possessed me
to do it, but I just came out tomy best friend in ninth grade
on a random day and then fromthere I came out to more of my
friends and um came out to myparents a couple months later
and I went into high school,just fully out, and I mean, the
(05:56):
rest is history, I guess itsounds like from obviously the
like what you're saying, that um, you know, going from not
fitting into these like socialgroups that are that are set in
place.
Joey (06:10):
You know, like you were saying you can hang out with the
boys because you're toofeminine and you couldn't hang
out with the girls because youphysically were a guy.
So, like you know, you werestruggling to find a place and
then when you went to this newschool that you you kind of like
like when predetermined, howare you going to behave to fit
in with these certain groups ofpeople, or you know, and like it
sounded like you werestruggling with, um, like you
(06:33):
suppressing your own identityjust to fit in with these other
people and just to feel accepted, which is so sad to hear.
But like it sounds like by thetime you're in grade nine, you
were just kind of like I'm sickof this, like I need to just be
who I want to be, because it'shard showing up when you don't
want to be or you can't be whoyou're authentic self or your
genuine self.
(06:54):
To put that mask on every singleday of, like you know, hiding
who you need to be or officiallyare and who you it's, it's
exhausting it's so tiring rightand I find that, like you said,
like growing up in like more ofa conservative city, I guess
specifically, um, I find thatthere's more people like you
(07:17):
every single day in this entireworld that, like, show up and
put this mask on and try to besomeone they're not just because
they don't want to upset thenorm.
I guess yes definitely right,definitely.
Jackson (07:29):
And I mean, when you're that age I guess, like 13 to 16
, the last thing you want to dois stand out.
You just want to be likeeverybody else.
You kind of just want to fit in, not get picked.
Joey (07:43):
Yeah.
Jackson (07:43):
And you're kind of willing to do whatever it takes
to just make your life easierand I did that for years.
But it gets to a certain pointwhere, like, I'm just not really
being authentic to myself.
And is it worse to be picked onor to feel like nobody knows
who I really am?
Joey (08:03):
It's tiring yeah picked on or to feel like nobody knows
who I really am.
It's tiring and like, yeah, andlike you get sick of the person
that you're trying to be becausethat's not who you want to be
and it's also like for me, likeI remember in high school I was,
I was like you know, I didn'twant to take theater because I
knew that theater put me in thatbox of people that I was like
scared to be or like I was likeyourself, trying to identify
(08:23):
like a certain type of way.
So I was like scared to be orlike I was like yourself, trying
to identify like a certain typeof way.
So I was like I don't want to goto theater and draw too much
attention to myself or yes, I'mfunny and yes, I want to be like
you know, do all these coolstuff with all the cool people,
but at the end of the day, likeif I went into theater or if I
did something that would classme as like gay when I wasn't
(08:45):
ready, it's like a scary yeah,definitely yeah but um, it
sounds like by grade nine.
We're happy we've come out topretty much everyone like you
feel comfortable in yeah and yousaid you didn't want to draw
too much attention to yourselfprior.
So like what was the spotlightspotlight like for you moving
forward after grade nine?
Jackson (09:04):
like how did you feel like people reacted to you then
and so, moving forward, I feellike once I was out it was less
of a, because I feel like lotsof people have the same
experience being gay in thecloset.
It's always a question and atopic of conversation and it
feels like such a thing.
But I found that once I cameout it became less of a thing
(09:26):
because people already knew, sothere was nothing to really
question, right, and then youcan kind of base people's
intentions off of that and Ifound it easier to connect with
people because I didn't have tohide who I was and if they liked
me, they liked me.
If they didn't, then I don'treally care.
(09:46):
But yeah, no, high school wasgreat.
I feel like I got minimally.
I actually didn't really getbullied at all for being gay in
high school.
It was way less of a thing.
I also had a really great groupof friends in high school, so
that definitely helped.
But yeah, no, once I came out,I think it got a lot easier to
(10:06):
just live life in general do youum or did you have any um
people in your school that wereidentified as queer?
Joey (10:17):
or were there other people like, especially in high school
, like as that, like year orthat time in your life like I
feel like that's when mostpeople kind of come out and like
are confident to be who theywant to be, because they're
adolescent and going intoadulthood.
Do you feel like there wasanyone else there that you could
kind of like lean on or anyoneto support or no?
Jackson (10:34):
honestly.
No, I was one of the onlyopenly gay kids in high school.
I feel like lots of people havecome out since graduating, but
when I was in high school I wasone of the only ones, at least
to my knowledge but I had no gayfriends at all.
It was all mostly straightgirls and the odd straight guy.
Joey (10:57):
So you graduated, and then you Tell me about your first
job.
Jackson (11:03):
What did you?
Do my first job was atMcDonald's.
I was in.
I guess 11th grade and I workedhold on were you the drive-thru
king?
Joey (11:13):
yeah, I was the drive, I knew it.
Jackson (11:15):
I was the drive-thru king which, honestly, I feel
like that job has helped me alot, because your multitasking
skills to do that job have to beinsane, because you're
literally taking payments,taking orders all at the same
time.
It's so busy.
You're literally like what?
Like 15, 16 there's so muchgoing on.
(11:35):
People are also just dicks.
You, because you're working infast food you're dealing with
the worst, like the worst kindsof people like why are you
yelling at a 15 year old?
Joey (11:43):
you're 40 literally because it's your fries are too
salty, yeah, and I'm like I hada grip.
Jackson (11:48):
I can't help that deep but no, yeah, that was my first
job.
I worked there for like over ayear when I was in high school
and I saved up all my money andI went on a backpacking trip
after I graduated with the moneyI'd saved up from that job.
Cool, yeah, so it really paidoff.
Joey (12:03):
But did your friend just come to the drive-thru and like
wind you up and be likeJackson's working?
No?
Jackson (12:07):
not really.
I was kind of embarrassed thatI worked there so I didn't
really advertise it a ton.
Joey (12:12):
That's fair, but yeah, no that was my what was your Okay,
tell me your McDonald's meal.
What's your McDonald's order?
My McDonald's order Come on,what did you eat when you were
there?
Jackson (12:20):
I would literally just get nuggets or like a McDouble,
like nothing too crazy.
I love that.
What was yours?
Joey (12:28):
um, it's really funny.
When I worked there, I wasactually pescatarian, so I only
ate fish.
Jackson (12:33):
Oh really, yeah.
So oh, you got the filet offish I would really occasionally
eat that, but I also thatscares me what's she order?
Joey (12:46):
tell us about your coming out story.
So like who was the firstperson you came out to?
Jackson (12:52):
like how did you feel like before, slash afterwards we
were you ready to come out, ordid you feel like it was like
forced, or um, at this point Ifeel like I was ready, so the
first person I came out to wasmy friend naz, who I'm no longer
in contact with.
But love you girl, she's thebest maybe she'll hear this.
I hope she hears this if you'relistening, shout out oh um, but
(13:14):
it was in ninth grade and therewas this one specific guy who
took the bus home with us whowould just always bully me for
no reason, like he would justbully me.
But at this point I had gottento the point where if someone
bullied me I would stand up formyself.
So when he bullied me I wouldstand up for myself, and it was
just kind of like a little likeI don't know.
We had this like squabblesituation.
Joey (13:35):
I don't know.
Okay, hold on.
When you say stand up foryourself, what do you mean?
Do you?
Jackson (13:39):
mean like, like I would like fight back Physically.
Not physically, but likeverbally.
I'm not really a physicalfighter, but I'm definitely like
a words girly.
Okay, someone yelled at me.
My I was like no, I'm not gay.
No, honestly, like at thatpoint I was just fed up and I
was like it wasn't even aboutbeing gay he was just like mean
to everybody and I was likeyou're stupid, yeah.
(14:01):
But I got home from school oneday and I forget what had.
Oh, I actually do remember hehad like these little paint
balls and he broke one on mycoat and it was like this really
nice, like pea coat from Gap.
And I was like I was so pissedabout it and I was just texting
(14:21):
my friend about it and I waslike it's so stupid, like
whatever.
And then I remember I text herand I was like I don't know why
it matters if I'm gay, like thatshouldn't be a reason for him
to treat me like that.
And she goes wait, dot, dot,dot dot, did you just come out?
And I was like um, yeah, I didLike I'm gay whatever, and she
(14:45):
was like your seat could staywith me.
She literally told our entireprogram.
So maybe not shout out, naz,because that was a little bit
shady, but I came to school thenext day at lunch and we were
sitting in our like.
So basically at my middleschool the teachers would leave
their classrooms at lunch so youcould just sit in their
classrooms and we would alwaysgo to this one classroom and eat
(15:06):
.
And I remember because I'vealways been one for the
dramatics I was like pullingfriend one by one and I'd take
them out in the hallway and belike I have to tell you
something, okay, and they'd belike oh my god, like so happy
for you.
And then I pull my one friendand I'm like hey, like I'm gay.
And she's like I know.
(15:26):
Naz told me and I was like Naz,you shady.
But yeah, so that was the startof my coming out journey and
then after that, like I guess,moving into high school, it
wasn't as much of a thing forpeople, for new people to ask,
because they were meeting me asa new person, not someone they'd
already known.
(15:47):
So it wasn't really like oh,like coming out to them as gay.
Joey (15:50):
You'd already like confirmed your identity?
Yeah.
Jackson (15:54):
I mean, obviously people asked because I feel like
people do that back then I feellike people now just don't
really come up to you andthey're like oh, like random
question are you gay?
Joey (16:02):
Yeah, like what's your sexual orientation?
Jackson (16:04):
Yeah, like it's not a thing anymore.
But back then it would be likethe girl comes up to you at a
party and she goes.
I have to ask you something andlike don't be, mad and I'm like
, oh my god, I know where thisis going.
Joey (16:22):
And she goes are you gay?
And you're like yeah, and shegoes oh my god, that's so cute.
I love that.
Um, I know it's so, it's sotrue.
I'm like I've like I've alwayswanted a gay best friend.
I've always wanted a gay bestfriend.
Jackson (16:28):
I'm like wait what like ?
You're like, not me, but lovethat um.
And then I came out to myparents summer, going into grade
10.
Joey (16:38):
It was like a couple of weeks after I got my ear pierced
and wait, wait, hold on, holdon as to as which side did you
get here the?
Jackson (16:45):
left.
It was like a whole thing,literally.
You have to get the left, youhave to get the left what was?
Joey (16:50):
what was that about?
Like what?
I don't even and that was athing in england too.
It's like that.
Jackson (16:54):
That must have been a worldwide but I mean, I guess
before there were dating appsand stuff like that, you had to
do like kind of covert like hey,I'm gay, without actually being
like hey, I'm gay, if thatmakes sense.
No, I don't get that.
Joey (17:10):
So like in my face, you're like, he's not like, say you're
in public.
Jackson (17:14):
Okay, in the in the 90s , when it started to become less
stigmatized being gay, but itwas still like a little bit
stigmatized.
If you're out in public maybeit's not the safest to be like
I'm a gay person, but if youhave your right ear pierced, and
you see, another guy with hisright for his right ear pierced,
then you could be like that's anon-verbal way to be like hey,
like I'm gay, this is a safespace.
Joey (17:35):
Let's figure it out let's fuck, let's fuck like you know
what I'm saying you're like, hisright ear is pierced, my right,
yeah, yeah, take off yourclothes exactly so.
Jackson (17:43):
My parents did not want me to have that journey of the
right ear.
So then a couple weeks later,my like my parents would always
ask me kind of and well, my momwould honestly ask me.
In passing, my dad was justlike kind of, would turn a blind
eye to it, but I literally waslike dressing up in princess
dresses in preschool.
Like me and my best friendsiobhan in preschool, we would
(18:03):
get fake married but we'd bothwear dresses like it was a super
cute yeah but um, but yeah, mymom just would ask and ask and
ask and ask.
And then I I told her like I waslike yeah, I am.
And then it was this whole likedramatic thing.
And then my dad was like doingwork in the basement, and he
came upstairs and he's likelet's go for a drive.
(18:26):
And I was like, oh my God, soyour mom?
had obviously told your dad, mymom, told him yeah, so we get in
the car and we probably drivefor about half an hour in
silence, like no music, nothing,just like in the car and I'm
crying and I'm just like, oh mygod, kate, this is so awkward.
Joey (18:43):
Were you crying because you knew that he already knew I
was just crying because it wasreally uncomfortable and
emotional.
Jackson (18:48):
How old were you?
I was 15.
Okay, yeah.
And then he goes, so what, youlike guys?
And I'm like yeah, and he goes,so like you want to be with a
guy, and in my head I'm like,okay, well, that's kind of the
whole point of it all, and I'mlike yeah, and he just goes,
(19:10):
okay, well, I don't really getthat, but okay, and then just
keeps driving and like that wasit, and we probably drove for
like another half hour and I'mjust like he like, and we both
like to quiet in silence, likeinside, like we probably said
he's processing.
Joey (19:25):
For sure, like it like yeah so, and then we got home
and I like scurried up to mybedroom and I was like awkward,
awkward, awkward, and then yeah,it was like, fine, I scurried,
I scurried up to my bedroom andI was like, ooh, awkward,
awkward, awkward.
And then it was like, fine,scurried, I scurried up to my
bed.
I literally scurried Like I ranup the stairs on like my hands
and knees.
Jackson (19:40):
But um, yeah, no, after that it was like my dad took a
while to come around Like hejust wasn't super warmed up to
the idea yet so nor did heprobably like understand like
what actually meant.
Yeah, which like to be fair,honestly, in high school I feel
like it made us butt heads a lotjust because you're a kid and
(20:01):
you don't really get that yourparents are being parents for
the first time and being peoplefor the first time.
But now that I am older I'mlike, okay, honestly, it could
have been a lot worse.
Like he was a football guygrowing up like very like
masculine like he was born inEdmonton he was born in.
Well, he was born in Montreal,actually, and then he moved to
Edmonton when he was a child.
(20:24):
But um, so brought up in like avery conservative environment,
exactly right and like he wasthe man of the house, like it
was just a very like masculinesetting that he grew up in.
And so imagine, your firstbornson comes out to you as gay.
You have no gay friends, youknow no gay people you don't
even really know anything aboutbeing a gay person.
(20:44):
Obviously that's jarring atfirst for sure.
So I do truly understand thatit took time for him to come
around and now that I'm an adultmyself, I'm like, okay, that is
a lot to process as a parent.
But obviously in high schoolI'm like my dad's a dick.
Joey (20:59):
I hate him like he's the worst, but I'm like he was just
like doing the best he couldtotally, um, and like back then
too, like we weren't like like,as a society resourceful to like
give any information, and likebeing gay meant like one thing
only a society resourceful tolike giving information, and
like being gay meant like onething only.
Jackson (21:15):
And like exactly.
Joey (21:16):
Not to like, not to mention, like I don't want to be
rude or overspeak here but likeyou're 15.
Yeah, Like, and you go to your,your parents, and you're like
I'm gay and I like men, andthey're like they don't
understand that.
Jackson (21:29):
Also, I had literally been vegetarian like five times.
I'd gone through five differentsports that I thought I was
going to stick with forever,like I, was just so all over the
board.
Yeah, that to them it's like,okay, this is just another thing
.
Jackson's going to do for likea couple of weeks for attention,
Like really like honestly.
Joey (21:44):
Yeah.
Jackson (21:45):
But obviously as I got older he saw just me as Jackson
and not as his like gay son,which is nice and like.
Obviously we're not gonna sitdown and talk about my dating
life which I don't even think Iwould want to anyways but I can
tell him if I'm seeing somebodyor like would feel comfortable
(22:06):
introducing a guy to him and notthinking like okay, he's gonna
puke and like cry about it.
Joey (22:12):
You know what I mean do you think that that's like an
internalized homophobic responsefor us, because obviously your
dad's not gonna puke and cry ifyou're like, but like, but like
you're responding that way.
Do you think we do that becauseI do the same thing, like I
love my dad to bits and he's metmy partner, but like getting me
to that stage and like nothaving that like I'm like like
(22:32):
how's my dad going to like freakout or be like why is there
another dude in my house Like Ihave two brothers too.
I'm like it's all my poor mom,my poor mom.
Jackson (22:40):
She's like it's all fucking men.
I think it's just that for solong I convinced myself that my
dad wasn't okay with it, when Ithink he was just kind of
figuring out what it was, that Ijust assumed that he would be
disgusted by it.
But now I'm like, realistically.
I know that if I'm happy, mydad is so happy and proud of me.
Joey (23:03):
Oh, yeah, yeah um, I think it's as well like another thing
like I don't want to like, illspeak one more time, but I want
to say that, like, I think it'svery quick, we're very quick as
like a society to like and likemaybe, as like a queer community
to like.
Be like edmonton is like, notprogressive, because we're
(23:25):
talking of when you lived there.
Jackson (23:27):
Four years ago and like exactly prior right, like maybe
it's.
It's very slow, but it is goingit is right, like you said to
me, like mike, there's, there'sone gay bar.
Yeah, that's something I meanstill, but even just the world
in general, the way it'sprogressing.
And I mean I'm not that old,but I was 15, 10 years ago.
(23:47):
I came out 10 years ago andjust thinking about the media
and like the media I wasconsuming, especially like there
was no gay artists.
All of the music was very likehetero centric.
There were no queer tv showsthat I like watched and related
to.
There was nobody that I.
There was no media that I couldconsume that really related to
(24:09):
my experience.
But I feel like now there's somuch more and it's not in a way
where it's one gay person on theshow.
Joey (24:16):
That's like the token gay friend right, it's like he's
like so sassy and he goesshopping and he's like, yeah,
like it's not that kind of thing, it's not like bias, yeah it's
like a queer coming of age whereit's like okay, I'm gay and I'm
in high school and I'mnavigating that.
Jackson (24:27):
Or an artist like chaparone, for example, who's
massive right now, holy shit,and has music that it's actually
like wow.
I've gone through something sosimilar to this and I've never
heard it expressed in a waythat's like so beautiful I know,
I wow, yeah, I, I never thoughtabout that way.
Joey (24:45):
I got really sidetracked when you said chapel ron I
fucking love it I, I myboyfriend's like, why do you
play me so much?
I'm like I just I just fuckwith it, like I just I think,
she's so awesome.
She's awesome um ideal guestone day.
Jackson (24:59):
Maybe she'll be in my, in my living room, we'll
manifest it yeah, we should, andmaybe she'll talk about her
experience.
Joey (25:06):
Totally, it's so nice and positive to hear your experience
and you know how you came outand I love it.
I think it's like a, it's afull circle moment, you know,
like we totally also reliving itand getting to share it because
, um, for you, it seems likeyour identity, you, you, at a
young age you were definitelylike I know who I am and who I
want to be, and I need to, like,lose the stereotypes of all
(25:28):
these people around me, and Ineed to just lean into who.
I want to be moving forward andI want to know more about your
current relationship status anddating in Vancouver, I guess,
okay.
Jackson (25:46):
I'm currently single.
Joey (25:47):
Okay.
Jackson (25:49):
Mingling.
Joey (25:50):
Okay.
Jackson (25:50):
Yeah, living my best single life at the moment.
Joey (25:54):
Okay, and when you, so you're single right now.
So how do you meet people inour queer community and like is
it organic, do you feel like yougo to like bars, or is it more
of an online dating situationLike?
What kind of platforms do youuse?
Jackson (26:11):
So I do go to the bars occasionally, not super
frequently.
One of my close friends isactually single right now as
well, so I think that kind ofit's always fun when your friend
is single with you, becausethen you can kind of just bounce
off each other and like wingmanand yeah, go out and have fun,
totally yeah.
So now that he's single, I'vebeen going out more, just
(26:31):
because it's it's easier to dowhen your friend is single.
It's like, yeah, it's more fun.
But, um, I also use some of theapps, which can be great, and
I've had really good experiences, but I've also had not the best
experiences, so I think it'sjust well.
I don't even know, I guessthat's what you make of it.
Joey (26:52):
Okay, I'm gonna pry, I want to know.
Tell me, I don't want to know,like, just because for like
humor, like skip that, but likeI want to know.
You said and I saw you an eyeroll um, oh, like a bad
experience.
Yeah, we, I want to educatepeople on, obviously, the, the
apps and stuff, like they'revery accessible nowadays and I
(27:15):
find they're, they can be agreat tool.
But obviously I saw you saystraight away like I've had a
bad experience yeah tell meabout a bad experience that
potentially you want to share.
Jackson (27:23):
So one that sticks out in my mind is this was when I
first moved to vancouver likewithin a couple of months of me
moving here.
So I was 21 and obviously Imoved to the city.
It was covid when I moved hereas well, so clubs weren't open
it was really hard to meetpeople, so right.
I was on tinder mostly to justmeet people, go on dates,
(27:44):
connect, just get to know thecity.
So I matched with this guy.
He was 31, which is alreadylike okay, that's like a bit old
for a 21 year old.
Whatever we're chatting, he'scute.
He asked me to go for drinksand a bite to eat.
I'm like, okay, perfect.
And he makes this comment,which in hindsight, I'm like,
but he makes a comment which, inhindsight, I'm like.
But he makes a comment and he'slike, yeah, like dating here is
(28:06):
so bad.
The last time I went on a datewith this guy, he like told me I
was fat and like left the dateearly and I was like that's
really fucked up.
Like you do not look fat inyour photos, like you're just
like a normal person nothing,not wait so this.
Joey (28:19):
He told you this online.
He told me you weren't actuallyface to face this.
He told you this online.
He told me this online.
You weren't actually face toface no.
Jackson (28:24):
so he told me this online.
And in my head I was like wait,that's actually so mean.
Like he just looked like anormal, like average body type
guy Right.
And I was like, okay, well, dayof the date comes and we go to
(28:45):
the flying pig in yale town andhe's like I, I have a table on
the patio and I'm like, okay,great, so I get there, and I'm
like mine is like five tablestoo.
Yeah, literally I'm likescanning the patio and I'm like,
are you here?
he's like yeah, I'll wave hestarts waving and I'm like, oh,
my god that there's no way.
Like there is no way, that's thesame person.
So I sit down and he has thesame face.
So I know it's the same person,but he just looks different,
(29:07):
like quite a bit older and likeit just seems like these
pictures were taken in his primeand he's no longer in his prime
.
So I sit down and immediatelyI'm like okay, it's an awkward
position because you don't wantto be like I'm leaving, like you
(29:27):
want to be nice and be likeokay, I'm going to at least sit
and have a drink with you,because at this point you're
leaving based on looks.
Yeah, exactly, I'm like I'mgoing to sit down and I'm going
to see how this goes, because Iwasn't really going with the
intention to date somebody oranything like that.
I'm just going to meet people,so maybe he's a really nice guy
(29:48):
and we become friends.
You're new here, you want tomake connections, exactly
exactly.
So we start talking and he'sjust the most pretentious,
douchey guy ever, like I willsay.
I remember bringing up one ofmy friends, rowan, and he goes
oh, I know rowan.
And I'm like oh no, you don't.
She just moved here a month ago.
And he goes oh, I thought youmeant Rowan.
Pulls out his phone and she haslike 100K on Instagram.
I'm like, ugh, you areliterally gross.
Yeah, it's not what you want, sothen we're sitting having our
(30:12):
drinks and he says something andhe goes yeah, I'm like I'm
turning 37 soon and I go 37?
Your Tinder said you were 31.
And 37 your tinder said youwere 31 and he goes oh yeah,
(30:33):
that's so weird.
I just don't know how to changemy age on there.
And I'm like, okay, I'mliterally 21, 20 fucking one.
Joey (30:35):
And this 37 year old who lied about his appearance and
his age by six years, is like ona date with me, right now and
like you know, at that time, atthat point, to like him, like,
as he's 31 online and stuff likethere's no long term, like
sorry not you know, but likeyou're not going in with it,
like knowing that you want todate him and like it's long term
for you, because, like you knowthat, like, the age gap isn't a
thing for you right, so um, but.
Jackson (30:56):
And then him saying 37 like yeah, I was out at your
lord.
So at that point I was like,hey, like I need to go.
And then, yeah, I was like,honestly, I think I'm gonna call
it after these drinks I'm sopooped.
And he's like are you sure likewe should go somewhere else?
Joey (31:12):
I'm like no but you politely stayed on the date I
politely stayed.
Jackson (31:15):
I had probably like two or three drinks, because we got
food as well, like we gotappies to share.
Joey (31:20):
I have a question what did you split the bill, did you?
Jackson (31:23):
I split it.
I split it because it was justlike I don't know, like okay
that's fair yeah but, also Idon't, when I go on a date I, if
I'm having a really good time,like I'll get the bill, or if
it's like I don't know what thevibe is like we can split it, or
if he gets it, that's great,but like that's not really a big
thing for me.
It's not like financial, yeahright, right, right, like.
Joey (31:46):
But like what do you expect to?
Do you have a conversation withthat, the person end of the day
?
Do you say like, hey, like,should we split the bill?
Or do you expect, like what?
What is your expectation, Iguess?
Jackson (31:56):
it just depends what the vibe is when the bill comes,
like if it's, if it's.
If I'm having a lot of fun,I'll just be like I'll grab the
bill like.
Joey (32:02):
Honestly, what about if I say it's a $300 bill?
Jackson (32:04):
okay, well, no, I was also gonna say usually when I go
on a first date, it's usuallylike a drinks place okay, so the
way.
I like to do it is if I getdrinks at the first place and
they get drinks at the secondplace, that's great.
Or like I really like the 50-50thing, like if I'm seeing
somebody like I'll get this, youget that.
It doesn't really have to be alike keep track of it thing, but
as long as I feel like it's amutual, a mutually beneficial
(32:26):
kind of situation, right then,that's totally fine by me.
I don't mind getting a dinner,or if I know you're gonna get
the next one, yeah.
But if I find that like I wasseeing this guy and I was
literally paying for, everythingand I'm like, okay, honestly,
I'm not your sugar daddy also,I'm not in a place to be paying
for everything and I'm like okay, honestly, I'm not your sugar
daddy.
Also, I'm not in a place to bepaying for literally everything
(32:47):
I hate that.
Joey (32:48):
Yeah, um people that aren't financially conscious
turns me off no, I know, I'mlike I'm, like we're not rich
unless like you're likefinancially like stable and like
ready to like vancouver is avery expensive city to like be
able to live in so like oh yeah,drinks and stuff like,
especially if you're going out,even for drinks, cocktails are
like 16 dollars if you both havelike four or five.
(33:09):
That's a pretty hefty bill.
That's crazy.
Yeah, it's so expensive.
And then it's like tip tax andeverything else?
Jackson (33:13):
yeah, exactly.
And then it's like, let's gosomewhere else for food.
It's like, oh my god, am Ipaying for food as well?
Joey (33:18):
like jesus christ the the struggles of online dating and
like obviously someone likeimposing, as you know, using old
photos and like lying abouttheir age.
They're very real in like thisday and age and yeah honestly,
it's quite.
It's more embarrassing for theperson that's doing it, like you
know, read the room yeah, likeread the room, like what do you
expect when I come and see you?
Jackson (33:38):
it is read the room.
But then you also kind of feelicky because you're like I
literally just got catfished.
Honestly, the thing about me isI just hate having my time
wasted Right and I am so, so, sobusy with working all the time
and my friends and just so muchon the go that if I carve out an
evening for somebody and thenit goes like that, I'm like, oh,
there's so many other things Icould have done with this
(34:00):
evening.
Totally.
Joey (34:09):
Besides getting catfished by an almost 40, year old man.
I feel these are a constantstruggle for online dating, like
, no matter who you are, youknow people you know shave a
couple years off, or they usetheir best photos or a good
editing app, you know.
So, um, that's just socialmedia and like social platforms
for you in general, leaning intosocial platforms.
Um, I want to ask you.
I have 10 platforms onlinedating and I want to know um how
(34:35):
you categorize them okay um,and like out of 10 I guess, like
if how you use them, so let'sstart with hinge first.
So where would that sit?
Like like how you use them, solet's start with Hinge first.
Jackson (34:44):
So where would that sit ?
Joey (34:45):
Like.
Would you use the platform?
Jackson (34:47):
I've used Hinge before.
Joey (34:50):
Successful, or like how did you find it?
Jackson (34:53):
Actually the last guy I was kind of seeing.
I met on Hinge and he was asweetie so that was good, but I
feel like Hinge is one of theleast sleazy.
Joey (35:00):
Okay.
Jackson (35:01):
I feel like people are more on there looking for dates
as opposed to hookups, which isgood, so maybe I would rate
Hinge at a 2 or a 3.
Joey (35:12):
Out of 10?
.
Jackson (35:13):
Yeah.
Joey (35:15):
Okay.
Jackson (35:16):
I would rate it in the top tier.
Joey (35:18):
Oh, so 1 is best.
Jackson (35:19):
Yeah, 1 is best, 10 is worst.
Joey (35:21):
So Hinge, wow, she's pretty up there.
Okay, so what about Bumble?
Jackson (35:27):
I've actually never used Bumble.
I feel Bumble Bumble seems likekind of random.
Joey (35:32):
It's very female-driven.
Jackson (35:34):
Yeah, okay, right, because the girl messages first
on Bumble.
Right, yeah, like, if you likeeach other, you can't actually
message them, unless the girlmessages you first.
Joey (35:52):
Okay, I love that it will expire.
I do think it's good but likethe platform's not really like
forward for, like gay men, yeah,yeah.
Jackson (35:55):
So, unlike what's, if you're a lesbian couple, free
reign.
It's a free-for-all baby, likeI don't know, I don't know.
Joey (35:58):
Okay, so, bumble, what are we saying?
10?
Jackson (36:02):
Yeah, I guess like 10.
Somewhere in the bottom tier,for sure.
Joey (36:05):
Not going to use that right.
Okay, Then what about eHarmony?
Jackson (36:10):
eHarmony also bottom tier.
I feel like that's so boomer.
Joey (36:15):
Live, laugh, love, yeah, okay, what about?
Jackson (36:20):
Tinder, tinder.
Okay, so here's the thing okay,come on I feel like tinder is
one of my favorites, I'm notgonna lie.
I think that I think that theinterface is really cringy,
which is super random to say butlike it just looks like a video
game.
Like it looks like a game whichit kind of is, if you want it to
(36:43):
be, but um, but yeah, I thinkthat tinder has a good mix of
people who are just therelooking for like something
casual and people who are therelooking for like dates or
friends, or I feel like it'seasy to meet people on there.
Joey (36:57):
Oh no, that's bumble.
It has like the friends option,like it's like bumble, like,
yeah, I think that's bumble.
Jackson (37:01):
Oh yeah, sorry, I'm getting confused, I don't even
know, but um, yeah, I feel likethe friends option, like Bumble,
like friends.
Yeah, I think that's Bumble.
Oh yeah, sorry I'm gettingconfused, I don't even know.
But yeah, I feel like the guyson Tinder are also more
attractive than the guys onHinge.
I don't know why, but yeah, Ifeel like Hinge honestly doesn't
have the best in my opinion.
Maybe I'll say guys who are notmy type on Hinge.
Joey (37:17):
Interesting.
Okay, so where do we want toput Tinder?
Jackson (37:20):
I'd say maybe like number three.
Actually, I'm going to swapHinge and Tinder.
I'm going to say Tinder numbertwo, hinge number three.
Joey (37:26):
Okay, I want to know what your number one is then.
Okay, so what about?
Jackson (37:32):
I actually don't know what my Okay.
Wow, I might have to move somethings around, wow.
Joey (37:37):
What about Matchcom?
Jackson (37:40):
Again very boomer matchcom again very boomer.
Not wouldn't say that I'vedabbled.
Also, I think, any of the onesthat you have to go on your
computer to like I feel likethat's a computer one I think
they have an app.
Joey (37:51):
Oh, do they have an app?
They must do.
People don't use theircomputers.
I guess, I guess, I guess Ijust think of e-harmony having
like commercials and I know 2010when online dating was just
starting, yeah, so to me I'mgonna put that at like nine ten
do you remember when there'slike the e-harmony, like um
commercials, when it was likeand we found love on e-harmony
(38:12):
and it was like the couples andit was very much giving like
divorcee, yeah, like giving it asecond shot might not last.
Yeah, um, okay, what about?
Jackson (38:22):
squirt.
I've never used squirt okay.
Joey (38:26):
So for context, squirt is a gay male app.
Jackson (38:32):
Okay, right I could be wrong, I don't know.
Interesting, it's been yearssince I've used any of these
apps, so yeah, just kidding, Idid the hand flip, just kidding.
Joey (38:40):
Okay, what about Scruff?
Jackson (38:43):
Scruff I also haven't used.
I think Scruff is more for likemask for mask vibes right.
Joey (38:49):
I don't know, I think, so I've never used it.
Well, the name Scruff.
Jackson (38:52):
Seems like it's for someone scruffy which.
Joey (38:54):
I'm definitely not.
Yeah, no.
Jackson (38:57):
But yeah, I've never used that one.
Joey (38:59):
Okay, okay, that one okay, um okay, so then we're gonna,
we're gonna bring in grindergrinder good, old grinder good
old grinder.
Okay, talk to me about that.
Jackson (39:09):
I mean, like, stereotypically, grinder is
obviously like you're moresleazy, like it's kind of very
sleazy it's more of an immediatehookup yeah, it can be used as
that can you match someone andmeet good connections, I'm sure
you can yeah but um it'stypically in the within the
community.
Joey (39:24):
I feel like it's more like hookup vibes or like you're hot
, let's get drinks and then fuckyeah um, it's pretty direct
yeah, for sure, it's actuallyvery direct.
Jackson (39:33):
I was like drinks, that's crazy.
But yeah, no, I've definitelygone through eras where I've
like dabbled in that for sure,but it is exactly what you said.
Joey (39:49):
Very sleazy, very transactional, very like what do
you do?
Like, when I was saying drinks,I meant like drink your piss.
Oh yeah, Question mark.
Jackson (39:53):
Question mark.
Yeah, no, it's, it's, I'm dead.
It's kind of crazy.
I feel like sometimes I'll getit if I'm like, for example, I
was just in montreal so I waslike you know what I'm gonna get
grinder, like I'm here for theweekend, like right, it's pride,
like yeah, whatever, it's animmediate, let's see what's
happening I didn't end upmeeting anybody, but actually no
, I met a guy for drinksliterally just drinks which is
(40:13):
like random.
But um, yeah, the messages youget on there are actually like
very jarring.
Like like you'll literally geta message and it's like, hey,
you're close.
I'm on my bed with my pantsdown, um, my front door's
unlocked, like just come in.
And it's like, um no, thatsounds really scary.
Actually I'm not.
(40:34):
I'm so good yeah but yeah, sofor that I would put grinder at,
maybe like a six.
Oh okay, because it's it can befun.
Yeah, she can sit like a six.
Oh okay, because it can be fun.
Yeah, she can sit at a six,she's fun sometimes, but not
something you want to have onyour phone all the time.
Joey (40:49):
Yeah, fair, totally got that.
I was going to say plenty offish, but I feel like I don't
know her.
I kind of know where you standwith that Poff, what Poff it's
called what poff it's called.
Oh, what the fuck I didn't knowit had an acronym.
Wait, you didn't know, it wascalled poff I didn't know.
Jackson (41:06):
It was referred to as poff plenty of fish I didn't
know people were even talkingabout it in general, let alone.
Joey (41:12):
There's a huge age gap here and it's, uh, it's
definitely showing right now asolid five years.
My next question, and thismight be my last, one, okay, I
want to know.
So I actually want to share um,since we were talking about
grinder, like online dating, umlike in the, in the queer
community, we kind of likecategorize ourselves and and
(41:35):
like use as tribes, as it'scalled, in grinder terms um, and
I wrote a couple down here,okay, but, um, let's talk about
them and then, like, I guesslike how we define them so
providing more education tototally potentially, people that
don't know what these are.
Jackson (41:53):
A little educational moment.
Joey (41:55):
I love it yeah, okay, so a power bottom.
Yes, we're gonna startaggressive okay.
Jackson (42:01):
So to me, a power bottom is just somebody who live
, laugh, loves bottoming.
Joey (42:09):
Yep, they're just always that's it, it's always bottoming
and like they're, they're alsolike, very determined to be I
guess the one in charge maybe-yeah, yeah, but like they're a
bottom, like a dominant bottom,yes, oh yeah, dominant, that's a
, that's a tribe, I didn't writedown dom, dom, yeah, yeah, so
(42:31):
they're.
They're a power bottom.
They are super strong.
Jackson (42:36):
They're not super imagine just therapizing them.
They're super strong.
I'm gonna fuck you like.
Joey (42:45):
That's not what I meant.
What I meant is uh they takecharge with their hole yes, they
do for sure yep, okay, so thena power top would be, I guess,
the reverse yeah, like adominant, top Dominant top.
Yeah, the person that's kind ofgoing to call the shots.
Jackson (43:04):
Yeah.
Joey (43:04):
But they're going to fuck you.
Yes, awesome, okay, and thenwe've got a jock which obviously
most North American personrefers to.
Jackson (43:14):
Like a gym guy.
Gym bro.
Yeah, like a muscle man.
Joey (43:22):
Yeah, is that what you say ?
Jackson (43:22):
jock is maybe to me a jock would be like a guy that's
like a little bit muscular andlike post a picture at the gym,
yeah like stereotypical, likeman, like body, like yeah works
out, not like crazy crazy bodybut has like an athletic build
sports yeah, yeah, like a yeahsporty boy, yay sports um, and
then we've got Otter.
(43:43):
Otter.
Joey (43:45):
This one's hard for me to like, so I feel like I kind of
fall into this.
Jackson (43:51):
I don't really know which one I am, I could see you
as an otter.
I think otter is like a babybear.
Joey (43:57):
A baby bear.
Jackson (43:58):
So like a bear.
Joey (43:59):
I feel like baby bear should be what it's called.
Jackson (44:01):
Maybe, but it's called maybe but it's not.
No, it's not, but I feel like abear is like an older, bigger
version of an otter okay, like Ifeel like an otter can
transition into a bear perhaps,but otter is like teetering, so
like it's teetering, it's like a.
Joey (44:20):
It's like a bear who still has their youth, and like
they're not big also, like notas hairy, not as hairy, not as
big okay yeah, because I feel,like a bear is like a big boy, a
big man yeah, yeah, like alittle bit more stockier, yeah,
um, yeah, maybe it has like alittle bit of a belly, like a
dad bod kind of situation.
Jackson (44:39):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
And then an otter would be likesomeone with maybe like less
hair, maybe a little slimmer.
Joey (44:41):
Yeah, a little bit of a belly, like a dad bod kind of
situation.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And then an otter would be likesomeone with maybe like less
hair, maybe a little slimmeryeah, a little bit youthful oh
wait.
Okay.
So that's bear otter jock powerbottom, power top.
What about so, daddy?
Jackson (44:59):
obviously very daddy obviously speaks for itself um.
Joey (45:03):
We've got twink, twink twink is, twink is like a like a
(45:26):
hairless, thin, hairless sothere are sphinx pretty much
yeah yeah, adjacent for sure,slash sphinx yeah, exactly
that's where it derived from.
I wonder where it did come fromthat word I have no idea like
is it the candy bar?
Jackson (45:41):
I don't know twinkie.
Twinkie Maybe, I don't know.
Joey (45:44):
I don't know.
And then we've got twunk, Iguess Twunk.
Jackson (45:49):
Twunk is like.
So in the same sense that.
Joey (45:54):
What is a twunk?
Jackson (45:55):
So Twunk is to twink, as bear is to otter.
Do we see where I'm going withthis?
Joey (46:04):
It's like a off-branch.
Jackson (46:07):
Not necessarily off-branch, just like an
evolution, let's say so.
A twink can evolve into a twunk, in the same way that an otter
can evolve into a bear.
It's like the older version.
Joey (46:22):
Okay, so a twunk would be ken, like barbie and ken, if
we're stereotyping.
See, here's what gets kind ofstinky, because I feel like
because you can, but ken is likea jock.
Jackson (46:32):
No, oh yeah, you're right, twunk would be like I
would.
I would also.
Oh my gosh, you know who twunkwould be frankie grande, really,
because he's not a twinkanymore.
He's like 40.
Is he 40, I don't know.
Joey (46:45):
He's like older I hope he's not listening.
He's like that's not how Icategorize my frankie if you're
listening to this.
You will always be a twink inmy heart yeah, I'll honestly
respond to the podcast, ifyou're listening, and tell us
what you want to be.
Let us know how you feel.
Jackson (46:59):
Let us know if you want to come on with chapel.
Even we could do a doubleheader, oh, yeah, we should
feature him that would be great.
Reach out and then we'll haveyour people, have your people
contact our people and we'll setsomething up yeah, um, but no,
I would.
I.
I would lovingly refer to himas a twunk okay, that's fair or
does twink just transcend age?
(47:21):
Who knows?
I feel like that's the way.
Joey (47:24):
Is that the way?
Jackson (47:25):
you're portraying it.
Joey (47:26):
But I don't know, I don't know either, like I feel like
maybe I feel like twink, likeyou said, definitely has like a
younger vibe to it.
Jackson (47:33):
Yeah.
And like they're hairless,maybe Like if you're 40 and
calling yourself a twink?
I think that's a little bitlike.
Eh yeah, boredy, and callingyourself a twink, I think that's
a little bit like.
Yeah, like, move on, you knowit's me.
Joey (47:47):
I'm scared, it's me.
No, you're, you could.
What tribe am I?
What do I?
If you were to see me in thestreet not knowing I have lazy
hair removal.
Jackson (47:58):
I would definitely say power bottom.
No, just kidding I would say.
I would say either otter ortwunk otter or twunk but I would
say maybe more twunk, because Idon't know if twink or no.
I would say maybe more otter,because I don't know if twinks
have facial hair.
Do they um?
Joey (48:17):
what about twunk?
Okay, see, here's where we getlike this is where we get into
that nitty-gritty it's reallywhat you make of it.
How do I decide what I?
Where do I fall?
Jackson (48:25):
no, I know it's a lot it's like you come out and then
you're like oh my god, whattribe am I in?
And it's this whole otherjourney.
But what would you categorizeme as you?
Joey (48:34):
give me twinkie vibe.
Jackson (48:36):
Yeah, I've been told the eye roll, I've been told.
But I've been told that by likestraight men, which I feel like
is derogatory.
Joey (48:45):
But I feel like this is gonna you're gonna hate me for
saying this but oh god at yourage now at 25, when do you?
I'm aging out, I know I'm agingout.
Jackson (48:55):
I think there's like these weird years between 25 and
, let's say, 34 where it's likeam I a twink, am I a twunk, am I
an otter, am I a bear?
You're just kind of a freeagent.
You just cling to what feelsright you're not a bear no, well
, I know, not yet at least.
Joey (49:14):
But no, I don't think that's my journey, but um, yeah,
I'm definitely on the, on thepathway, pathway to twunk jack,
based on your experiences andwho you are today, what advice
would you give someone who ismaybe struggling with their
identity, or is struggling tomaybe come out as gay or
bisexual, or doesn't really knowhow to communicate in their
(49:39):
current social setting, in theircurrent?
Jackson (49:42):
social setting.
So honestly, as cliche as itsounds, I would say that it
really does get better.
And the older you get and everyyear that goes by, you will
become more and more comfortablewith who you are and the space
you occupy in this world andyou'll find people who love you
and care about you as a personand not as your sexuality or
(50:07):
anything like that.
And, yeah, there's people outthere just waiting to love you
and totally you can only findthat when you really love
yourself.
Joey (50:16):
Oh very true.
I support that.
I, yeah, I feel that it's onceyou really start to like feel
you know who you want to be.
It's start.
It's time to start sharing it.
You know, and surroundingyourself by people that like
love you for who you are, um,that you feel comfortable around
, is like maybe like a keycomponent.
(50:38):
That concludes our episodetoday with jackson.
Jackson (50:42):
Thanks for being here thank you so much for having me.
I had so much fun good, good.
Joey (50:48):
I'm glad thanks for sharing your experiences and um
for letting everyone get to knowa little piece of you that
maybe they didn't know.
Jackson (50:53):
Of course, thanks for having me on and letting me yap.
Joey (50:56):
Yeah, we love a good yap remember that new episodes go
live every wednesday.
Tune in on whatever platformyou choose and we'll see you
there.
Yay, ciao, bye.
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