August 28, 2019 • 53 mins
Imbibe Cinema crew discusses the casting, direction, symbolism, and interpretation of the 2019 IFC drama OPHELIA, starring Daisy Ridley, Naomi Watts, George MacKay, Tom Felton, and Clive Owen. In this episode, host Jonathan C. Legat is joined by Michael Noens (Executive Director of Blue Whiskey Independent Film Festival) and Tricia Legat (Program Director of Cinema Centennial).
MUSIC: "Woe Mountain" by Band Called Catch
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Episode Transcript
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BandCalledCatch (00:00):
♫Whoa is me, woe is me.
They have seen what I've seen.
Yes.
My mamma didn't let them makechange on me.
Put change on me.
Yeah, whoa is me, woe is me.
This is the product of A.D.D.
Apothecary, not for me, I dreamnaturally.
Yeah, woe is me.
Woe is me.
They have seen what I've seen.
♫
Jonathan (00:21):
Greetings and or salutations.
And welcome back to ImbibeCinema.
I'm your host, Jonathan C.
Legat.
I'm a alongside Michael Noensand Tricia Legat.
Uh, in this episode we're goingto be discussing Ophelia, which
is, uh, currently available ondigital download as well as
rental.
While we imbibe The Drowning InPhel— The Drowning In Phileo...
(00:46):
"The Drowning Ophelia." That'sreally sad when you're already
starting to screw up the name ofeverything, um, drink.
Yes, yes it is.
It's potent.
It's vodka.
So, uh, it is found in a bookwhich is Shakespeare, not
stirred cocktails for youreveryday dramas.
Uh, we found this drink, uh, ithas flowers floating just like
(01:07):
Ophelia.
It is very apropos.
So, um, imbibe cinema podcast isbrought to you by the blue
whiskey independent filmfestival, otherwise known as
boys.
Uh, the festival seeksindependent character driven
films of all lengths, styles andgenres.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So to learn more, visit us at[inaudible] dot com
once again, that is BWI f f.com.
Um, ask for the film.
I felt this was a greatindependent film and, and I know
Tricia was very excited aboutthis one.
Um, uh, this particular one andtwo to quote the complete works
of William Shakespeare bridged.
I love my Willie.
(01:43):
Um, uh, but specifically from,from the first shot of this
film, which is right out of thesurge, John Everett[inaudible],
uh, painting.
You could tell that ClaireMcCarthy who the director of
this film was also extremelyexcited about bringing this
particular film to the screen.
Yeah, absolutely.
I did see Hollywood reporter dida, uh, a little interview, um,
(02:04):
with a cast.
Well, members of the castingcrew and Claire McCarthy was
there, um, along with the TomFelton layer to yeah.
Yes.
And um, right.
By the way, I was watching this,I was like, man, he looks really
familiar.
He's not wearing green and he'snot a complete Dick.
Wow.
He's not in slithering rightnow.
Okay, that makes sense.
(02:24):
It was only until like earliertoday.
I was like, that's where I knew.
Anyway, that's how good an actorhe is.
Yes, there you go.
Like you could be the most, oneof the most famous hated
characters all the time andyou're like, I just can't put my
finger on it.
Naomi Watts was specificallytalking about how Claire
McCarthy would put daisy in, inNaomi in a room and have them do
(02:49):
like a bunch of rehearsal.
Naomi even made a comment abouthow she was like a, brought me
back to my, uh, my, uh, highschool theater days like that
lucky, you know, theater, um,uh, and practice
Speaker 3 (03:00):
this.
But she said, you know, it's setup such a great connection, a
great bonding opportunity forthe two of them.
And I, I totally agree.
I mean, they, they clearly had agreat, a great time on this film
at 1000% degree.
Uh, you know, especially NaomiWatts plays two characters,
absolutely riveting performanceby her.
(03:21):
Um, and while this is, you know,we're, we're going to be
discussing the, the story muchlater, but the material, this
was not as dark to a degree aslike hamlet is right on who's
putting it up and how they'representing it.
That's trace a lot like the,like Shakespeare, like the Bible
has a lot of room forinterpretation.
(03:42):
People will see one thing andthey'll focus on that and
they'll ignore other things thatyou can see a presentation of
any of his plays and they cantranslate differently depending
on who's doing it, um, within atime period.
Right.
Um, so when it comes to this,and it's one of my all time
favorite, uh, plays of, youknow, just, uh, I mean, yes, my
(04:04):
mother did read to us hamlet asa smell children because she
thought the pokey little puppywas redundant.
I don't know.
She had problems with the small,with, with children's
literature.
Oh yeah.
She, and then she did, sheproduced three, uh, artistic,
um, creative types who had aavoidance to careers with health
insurance.
And it really is, I love youmom.
(04:27):
But she would read hamlet to uswhen we were little.
When it comes to the cast.
I, one of the reasons I love, uh, daisy Ridley in this is she
has, uh, this great way ofbeing, presenting herself, being
very strong and very vulnerableat the same time.
Yes, I've been in love withNaomi since King Kong, King Kong
(04:48):
watching.
I mean, and it's sad because Idon't remember the name of the
character and I think everybodyalways, nobody does.
I think everybody just calls itthe fe ray character because
Faye Ray played and it was soright.
So nowhere they, nobody botheredto know the characters name.
But in watching her do thatwhere she's just acting with a
(05:09):
green screen and just to bringso much humor and humanity in
when she's all by herself andhave a relationship with
nothing.
I mean very few actors I thinkare capable of doing that or a
at doing it as eloquently as heror you know, Tom hangs with a
volleyball.
Um, and I will say there is areverse ageism I find that is
(05:33):
applied to hamlet in any motionpicture.
And let me just pull up my dataon this cause I was curious if I
was correct, if I was just likebeing prejudice whenever they
release a major motion picturedata.
Yeah.
So here's my, here's my, uh, my,my, my data for you all.
Uh, so, uh, 1948 pain to aproduction of hamlet on film
(05:56):
that Sir Lawrence Olivier, whowas 41 years old at the time
playing hamlet.
Then Mel Gibson plays.
Yeah, Mil Kempson plays him in1990.
He's 34.
So a young ENT like Kenny theBrennan Plays Hamlet.
Yeah.
Ken The front of plays hamlet at36.
(06:17):
Ethan Hawke plays him in 2000 at30.
And then David Tennant who Ilove and is such a damn good
actor, plays him at 38.
And I'm sorry, hamlet is not inhis thirties.
You don't even, Juliet were intheir teens and we make a big
deal of casting young for that.
Right?
So why in God's name is Hamlin amiddle aged man.
(06:39):
He's never have.
We're a middle aged man.
And so this is the first time wesee somebody under 30 because
George is 27.
Okay.
[inaudible] baby face.
So even if he was over 30, I'dgive it to them on the fact that
he looks, he looks the partnobody else did.
(07:00):
Now here's, here's one theorythat on that, and specifically I
know it's, you know, floatingsome of these, these actors egos
a little bit, but I think thatthere is a certain amount of
chops that, that an actor musthave to play hamlet in hamlet.
Whereas I was blown away byGeorge Mackay's performance in
this, but he's not doingHamlet's monologues.
(07:23):
He's not doing hamlet,Soliloquy, Z's not performing as
hamlet.
This is, this is a story about afailure.
This is hamlet as a supportingrole.
Yeah, exactly.
But then it shows off a lot of,I mean there's, because when you
play hamlet, there's so much tocover, right?
You've got the fact that he'strying to decide what to do.
Uh, his relationship with hismother is a big problem.
(07:44):
His relationship with his uncleis a big problem.
Uh, it, we've got Rosencrantzand Guildenstern for comic
relief.
I mean there's just, there's alot going on in Ofelia is just
one side note and what's goingon.
Right?
Because in this you get to seehow much hamlet really does love
Ophelia and it is, it's in theoriginal text, but there's just
(08:07):
so much text, hey, say thiswhole, like the longest play, uh
, that Shakespeare wrote, and Icould be wrong, I really didn't
check this, but he's one of, ifnot one of the longest plays
that he's ever, uh, that hewrote and it, uh, with the
shortest plot, it basicallynothing happens.
Yup.
And it could be spiritualSeinfeld.
(08:28):
There's, it's, it's, we're justsitting around talking about
nothing really.
It's just not true.
He is, nothing happens.
He taught, he talks a lot ofaction in, in, in the play.
He talks a lot of action butdoes nothing.
Right.
So it's really interesting tohave him as a supporting
character because he actuallydoes a lot more when he's not
the center of the focus.
Right.
And I think every, everycharacter in here, to a degree,
(08:52):
I would even say Clive Owen'scharacter, not necessarily Clive
Owen, but cla,
Speaker 1 (08:56):
ply bones, character of Claudia's.
There was hints of comedy aswell as the hints as well as the
weight of things lighter.
Yeah, there was, there werelighter moments too, to cloudy
human beings in order to reallybe afraid of somebody, you kind
of have to be able to laugh atsome point or be able to, uh,
(09:18):
feel for them on some level.
You have to be some humanity toreally fear them.
I think some of the greatestvillains are the scariest people
like John Lithgow.
Terrifying, but adorable at thesame time.
It's true.
He can do both.
Yes.
David Tennant, yes.
Also very scary.
Although, so we've kind of hit alot on, uh, on the actors
(09:39):
specifically, but I kind of wantto bring, you know, turn this a
little bit onto the, the crew.
So like specifically, uh, ClaireMcCarthy, uh, she actually did
win a, a directors to watch fromthe Paulden Springs
International Film Festival forthis film.
What I found really fascinatingwhen it comes to like the crew
compliment, um, is that, um, herand, uh, Denson, Baker, uh,
(10:04):
who's the cinematographer, thiswas actually their fifth project
together.
Uh, and they actually have twothat are in either pre or post
production right now.
Oh Wow.
That they have kind of found a,you know, this, this cohesive,
uh, you know, meld between thetwo of them and they work
together on everything.
And I'm not gonna lie the, thecinematography, the, the, uh,
(10:26):
the amount of symbolism, whichwe'll also get to when we get to
the story, but like, they didsuch a great job of telling the
story through their shots,through the, everything in the
background.
It was just as stunning aseverything that was going on, on
the photograph.
Specifically kind of, uh, tocomment on the, the moment when
Ophelia is told that hamlet hasbeen killed by a Rosencrantz and
(10:50):
Guildenstern and she has likethat breakdown in uh, like, uh,
she goes into like the, it'slike a tree, like a almost like
a willow and I, she kinda has abreakdown there but like the,
the, the break of shots that youshow like time going by into the
evening before she ends up onthe top of paragons.
Yeah, that whole, there's likethis one shot, um, that's like
(11:12):
at, it looks like sunset.
Um, she's just standing in themiddle of a field, this foggy
field, very ghostly and it's alljust carried through with like
with a, with the score to thatmoment.
And we, we bring up the score inthis.
Now granted, I will actuallyhere, let me, let, let me go to
the cinematography moment that Ifound absolutely fascinating.
(11:32):
And I know Trisha and I haddiscussed this previously, but
the, the point where she hasdrowned herself, there is this
beautiful shot where the, the,the screen is essentially
flipped upside down where she isfloating in it face up in the
water, but she is down on the,on
Speaker 3 (11:54):
the screen and it's just such a, this beautiful
mirror kind of thing going on.
And just what an amazing shotthat was.
Uh, two to really drive home.
What's the weight of everythingthat's going on?
And uh, the opening shot whereyou sh you show her, uh, laying
in the water and then listening,same thing.
(12:14):
And then she sings, uh, the, thebed where she's laying there and
on one hand she's grasping ontoa bouquet of flowers.
And I think to myself, whatdrowning?
Wouldn't it be like justfloating away?
Why are you grabbing like thedeath grip around these flowers
is intense, but then we knowthere's somebody symbolism about
(12:35):
Ophelia in the flowers.
And so, but that shot with herholding those flowers so tightly
, uh, stuck in my head.
So then later when we, whenshe's drowning and she's
grasping so tightly onto thatbottle of nightshade, uh, which
you know, is flour and poisoned,uh, then it's like, oh my God,
those are the flowers.
(12:55):
That's it.
That's why we regret that.
And visually I'm seeing it justthrough the cinematography
they're showing me it's the samething.
Yeah.
And I love that.
Uh, one of the things that gotme a cinematography wise was the
use of the pillars in the court.
Uh, and the fact that in her, inthe first scene we see, of
course she's a child and she'swalking on the outside of the
(13:15):
pillars.
Uh, and accord is within thosepillars.
She's walking on the outside,cause she's an outsider.
She's not part of the court.
And, uh, her brother's tellingher to get out of there and she
kind of runs in between thepillars and stinks under a table
so she can see better.
So now all of a sudden she'sinside court.
Uh, and then the last shot ofher in court is her and, uh,
(13:37):
hamlet parting ways.
And he is on the inside of thepillars.
And she's on the outside andthey walk parallel as they walk
the length of court and she'sleaving and he's going to face
his death.
And the fact that they're justwalking next to each other but
not but not.
And she's on the outside andhe's on the end and it's just
like, oh it's so beautifullyshot.
(13:57):
I love that.
Beautifully shot.
Beautifully directed that, Imean that there is so much
attention to that detail.
There's so much.
I know I missed cause I only gotto see it one time and I'm like,
oh I'm, I took ridiculous amountof notes and John made fun of me
trying to pause.
I will.
And that's the funny thing toothat you mentioned that because
I rented this on apple and so Isaw it on Thursday night.
(14:20):
I think you guys did too.
Yup.
Saturday morning I had like fourhours left.
Um, as I like pulled it up on myapple TV and I was like, okay,
I'm going to, I'm going to watchit again and take more notes.
I actually did write a lot ofnotes the first time, but after
I watched the movie pretty muchI was like furiously writing and
I'm trying to also make sense oflike these one word things that
I wrote down.
(14:40):
Raz, I was watching it and sothe, what I thought was so great
was when I did sit down to takemore notes, I made no notes.
I just ended up watching a movieagain.
That's exactly what happened
Speaker 1 (14:52):
to me.
I did watch it a second time andI was just wrapped.
Yeah, I mean it's a movie youcould watch, which is
interesting because I don't knowif I would say the same thing
about any a film adaptation ofHamlet.
Yes.
But I would watch it twicewithin 48 hours.
This I would watch over and overagain because I know that
there's, it's like, you know, abeautiful lead, delicious onion
(15:13):
and there's just so many layers.
Yeah.
And as your one per phase areprobably a better piece of
delicious.
Yes.
But no, it is interesting thatthe second time there were a lot
more things that I was pickingup on specifically in the one
that the Tricia pointed outimmediately after the, the, the
movie finished, she went andgrabbed the, uh, the Shakespeare
(15:34):
hamlet off off the shelf and itwas feverish, feverish Lee
opening the book and she openedit amazingly enough and scarily
enough to the page she wasthinking but then kept thinking
second guessing and turning tomore pages.
But uh, there is a, a speechspecific, let me pull it up for
you.
Oh, it's right here.
It's one of my favorite speechesof Polonius is uh, which is the
(15:56):
a tis match.
His pity to spit each is true tohis man.
He was like, stay a wild man.
Stay awhile.
I will be faithful.
I'm going to be brief aboutthis, but I'm going to talking
to the five minutes.
I love, I love how uh, Poloniustalks.
Yeah.
He winds me up.
And uh, I had actually learnedthis speech a long time ago for
speech team.
(16:16):
No, just cause it was my, forsomething doubt that the stars
are fire doubt, the sun dothmove, doubt, truth to be a liar,
but never doubt.
I love what a fantastictransition to Stephen prices.
Awesome score.
Yes, exactly.
And so that, that was exactlywhat Trisha thought it was only
(16:38):
in the very end of the movie,but the second time I watched it
because she found that quote andread it aloud to me while we
were, you know, continuing toimbibe other alcohol.
The second time I watched it,that is actually echoed
throughout all of the keymoments.
It's either in a whisper whenright when she's about to take
her own life, uh, with the nightshade.
(17:00):
It's being whispered thatparticular sentence as being
whispered.
And then again, as, as hamlet isgoing on, you know, walking
towards his death and she iswalking out of the court that is
actually being sung.
And so the score to this wasjust dripping with, with
amazingness.
Uh, and yeah, Steven StevenPrice just a little bit on him.
Um, cause I've, I've uh, lovedhis, uh, his music baby driver.
(17:24):
I mean, obviously you have tomention, uh, his score for
gravity, um, which he, I believehe won, um, the Oscar for as
well.
I have like a three d score togo with the fact that the movie
was 3d and constantly like thatspinning, um, feel in the music.
I mean, it, it's, it'sremarkable.
And then he, if you guys havewatched our planet on Netflix,
(17:46):
Yep.
Incredible score, that's him.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Um, and going into this, I mean, it's very
different, very, very differentthan, than stuff I've heard of
him his before.
But it does make me question,especially like the use of that
in, in the score.
I wonder, did that originatewith Claire McCarthy or did data
originate in him?
Or was that something that I wasborn between, you know, like a
(18:12):
conversation between the two ofthem because it's, it like a,
the way that I felt about itafterwards, which is, you know,
Apropos those lyrics hunt themovie.
Oh God, they feel like ahaunting of, of over the entire
story, which I think is perfect.
And it's like, it's brilliant.
Right?
And those, I mean, that is, uh,that is Hamlet's love letter
(18:34):
that Maloney's is reading toOphelia that affiliated
surrendered to her father andhe, he's reading back to the
Queen, uh, to, uh, show howhamlet is crazy, but he's crazy
in love.
One of the reasons, and mindyou, I had gone on this weird
tangent about how I love hamletand it's the longest play about
nothing.
And my mom read it to me, butreason I love hamlet of all of
(18:56):
Shakespeare's plays.
I don't think I actually got tothe point, you know, they laugh
cause it's common is a, the factthat I love that every character
in this is motivated by love ora version, either a twisted
version of love.
Uh, but I mean obviously hamletloves his father.
(19:19):
Oh, Ophelia loves her father.
Hamlet loves his mother.
Claudius loves his mother to uh,Eh, well, I mean, and even her
ratio, it's a friend that's aplatonic love.
That's all.
We love her now.
She wanted to talk about herratio.
Thank you.
I was about to say that becausewhen you had made the comment
John, about how, you know, likeevery cast member they showed up
(19:43):
and brought their, their a plusplus game.
Um, they, they clearly wereloving everything that they were
doing.
I mean, down to your, yoursmallest characters.
I felt like the rose bullyturned the guard, like fully,
fully developed.
Obviously, you know, there'ssource material, but I mean
(20:04):
fully developed in the shortamount of time that we get to
know them.
And I mean Horatio does haveactually quite a bit of screen
time, but I like loved a, whatdoes a Devon, Devon Terrell,
yeah, his, her ratio.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
In the second time that I sawit, I didn't get to see him in
the end, in the background.
(20:25):
I was taking notes at that time.
He looks over and I'm like, I'mwriting for her ratios.
Right.
I mean, first time I actuallycared about her ratio, the, the
thing.
And again, in, in, once we comeback from our break, we'll
really discuss kind of the, the,the story, uh, and, and you know
, where it differs from the,the, the source material, if you
(20:45):
will.
But it was heartbreaking to seeHoratio just get
Speaker 1 (20:48):
beaten in the background as opposed to like,
you know, having his, his momentin the sun.
It's just literally like thewhole point of the ratio
character.
The only last person that, thatI would like to bring up is a
Massimo, uh, Contini Perrine, uh, who is the, uh, the, the
costume designer.
Oh, he did?
(21:09):
Uh, it's, uh, Masimo ContiniBahraini it's an awesome, it is
just so fun to say.
The, the, the costumes in thiswere absolutely amazing and, and
Masimo did, uh, like thebrothers Grimm or, uh, talk of
tails, uh, costume designs aswell.
And, and, and both of those kindof had this, this element of
modern ask, but at the same timereally hitting period piece, if
(21:32):
you will.
Um, and, uh, especially like the, the ballroom scene where it's
the masquerade ball and justeverything that he did, it was,
it was absolutely fantasticseeing that costume design
specifically.
I don't find myself noticing thecostume design in like a
particular moment, um, in, in myfirst watch.
But, um, the, the moment wherethey're standing in front of the
(21:54):
tapestry and you know, a hamhamlet walks up and you know,
walks over and you know, Opheliaand him are having this, this
back and forth, that moment whenwe, we moved back and we see the
whole group.
What I love is that there's likea, a, like this gold that's in
the costume for literallyeverybody except for a few.
(22:14):
Really?
Yeah.
And it, it makes your eye goimmediately to her.
The fact that she's so muted inthat shot start contrast.
That's good.
Costume does.
I realized, I was like, wait aminute.
Everybody's got a little gold tothem.
Uh, you know what?
We're going to take a a halfminute here.
My glass is empty.
And so we're going to fill upthese glasses and imbibe a
little bit more.
After this.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
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Speaker 1 (23:09):
you're listening to imbibe cinema.
Once again, I am Jonathan cLeggett and I am here with
Michael knowns and Trisha likeit.
Uh, and we have been discussinga, the film Ofelia.
Uh, do you like listening to ourdulcet tones?
Please subscribe to get newepisodes as soon as they become
available, right and or leave usa review to help our show reach
(23:29):
that larger audience.
And you can also follow imbibecinema on Facebook and, or the
twitters.
I really think that what weneeded to discuss now, um, is,
is, is the script at large theadaptation of the novel by Lisa
Klein.
Um, and, and where it differsfrom the Bard's, uh, original
(23:50):
work where it's similar, uh, andjust the script and all of the
symbolism.
It's reaping its symbolism, uh,and, and everything that we've,
you know, tried to discuss, but,but, but I reigned you in so I
apologize.
So free for all Trish go.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
So I've usually just seen very similar versions of
hamlet.
I mean, yes, you can make itpresent day like Ethan Hawke did
or well just keep getting olderhamlets, right.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
He's a nine p this young girl in Ireland, no
testament to their acting rates.
Not to me.
Clearly.
I'm going to be dead tomorrow.
Oh, I thought I was looking atthem cause your excursion is
mine.
Yeah, sorry.
Wow.
We really got the different take.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Obviously the main story that everyone sees is a,
is a good story.
It's a great story.
Uh, however, uh, as a manyShakespeare nerds pointed out is
, um, uh, there are so many nodsor hints in the text to the fact
that Ophelia is pregnant and is,or she is.
Yeah.
And there are just so many thatlike if you just in the first,
(25:04):
uh, or early on in the, in theshow or the film, if you would,
uh, just had her hold herstomach for a second, all of a
sudden, all of those hints wouldprobably become very noticed by
the audience.
Just Wen with a visual cue.
All those little jokes about,uh, conceiving[inaudible] will
suddenly be like, oh, wait aminute.
(25:25):
And in her, um, drowningsequence when she, uh, is
drowning, they talk about thecloud, they talk about the
flowers that she's holding andone of them, uh, being, uh, dead
man's fingers, uh, and, uh, theyare called Edmond's fingers.
They look more like, um, Phallice I would say members male.
(25:49):
Uh, yeah, like, yeah, they looklike penises and so can say that
on the podcast.
But also, uh, the, she hasDaisy's unhappy love as a, his
representative.
So unhappy, love and all that.
But more importantly, uh, if weget to affiliate speech about
flowers.
So I'm just going to jump inhere.
(26:09):
Okay.
So we got barred versus a bookor in this case film[inaudible]
for you in columbines.
Okay.
And those are directed toGertrude.
Those are symbols of adultery.
So she's calling out the factthat she knows you are.
Whoa.
Yay.
Oh, show.
Exactly.
Clark, go ahead.
There's room for you.
And here's something for me.
(26:29):
Yeah.
This is the most important.
Flour in my mind.
Ru symbolizes regret.
And she's directing this towardClaudius and she's saying, you
know, I hear some kill yourbrother.
You pretty much, you're going toregret all the zones.
Uh, and some for me, it's theonly thing that she says about
herself is she has a lot ofregret.
You would think, however ru isalso used, uh, as a poison, uh,
(26:53):
to help induce miscarriages atthat time.
So, uh, it could, if you tooktoo much, it could kill you, but
it's not something that youwould use to kill yourself.
It's a terrible way to die.
Most people would use hemlock ornightshade, something like that.
So the fact that she'smentioning Rue, which is
specifically something you woulduse to kill off an unborn child.
And some for me, there's thatdouble meaning.
(27:15):
So it's another way of going.
Look, I'm pregnant eyes.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
She immediately follows it with saying, we may
call it herb of grace.
Oh Sundays.
That's really sad.
Then, uh, especially if sheknows that she's taking it to,
to do that.
Oh you must wear your room withdeference.
Right?
So she's saying, yeah, butyou're wearing yours for a
different reason than mine.
Yeah.
(27:39):
Alright, go ahead.
There's a daisy.
Yeah, daisy as another symbol ofunhappy love.
I would give you some violence,but they all withered when my
father died.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Now this is another one that I think is interesting
is cause a violence are supposedto symbolize faithfulness.
And the fact that you know,maybe the only faithful person,
a loyal person that sheconsidered in court cause layer
t's isn't there at that time isher father.
And so there's nobody that shecan trust.
And the fact that Hamill's theone who killed her father
spoiler.
So the fact that that happened,then we, we've broken a trust
(28:12):
obviously.
Uh, so the fact that she mightfeel all alone and, uh, that
there's no one she can trust,
Speaker 1 (28:18):
they took it almost completely aligned for line in
this film.
There, there was some movement,if you will, because of the
undertones that they were tryingto set.
Whether this is the novel itselfor the adaptation I'm judging,
it's kind of a little bit ofboth as well as just Claire's
directing, getting the subtextof all of the conversations.
(28:43):
And it was one of the thingsthat was absolutely beautiful to
watch, uh, between hamlet andOphelia is when they're
communicating with each other.
We've seen scenes where he jokesabout her being a fish, cause
she's in, you know, in the pondalone.
Uh, you know, now she's clothed,but at the same time he's like,
hey, come on, come on a, youknow, up on the shore.
(29:06):
And, uh, and you know, he talksabout her being efficient.
Then later he literally goes upto Polonius in like, Yo, he's,
she, he's trying to sell me afish.
And there's a whole speech inthe actual play of hamlet where,
where Polonius is going.
Like, I am not a fishmonger, youknow, but to us it makes more
sense because we saw a scenethat is not in the play of her
(29:28):
being in this water.
And so there's all these, thesebeautiful things where, where
they take the, the, the richtext of the Bard, but they never
actually go full hamlet.
They don't go full Shakespeare.
They don't use all the texts, uh, except in the, in the, the,
uh, the composer and the score.
But at the same time, they lacein all these beautiful elements
(29:50):
that if you know the, the textright here, you're able to, if
you're in,
Speaker 3 (29:54):
you're a nerd and you're geeking out about it.
And I know, I know during thebreak I talked about how I
compare this in a way to, uh,what lies beneath, uh, which is
a film that God was, it's ameccas that did that and it was
an homage to Hitchcock.
So if you love Hitchcock movies,you're going, oh my God, oh
wait, that's, that's a fromnotorious and that's, that's
from a rear window.
(30:14):
And that's, that's from a, youknow, uh, vertigo and right.
There's a, there's a little bitof everything laced in and in
this, there are not only, uh,nods to the text without being
overt that if you know it,you're like, oh, I get where
you're going.
Or, uh, if, you know,Shakespeare, uh, in general, he
loves to do the whole like, oh,you dead.
(30:35):
No, I know dead.
Oh wait, we're all really deadkind of thing.
And he loves to play withpoison.
It's, it's done in other, uh, uh, place.
So I, I love that there is,there is a love of Shakespeare
and that we've just broadenedour horizons a bit and we've
gone a little out of the box onthat.
And then one of the things Ilove is they assigned Claudia's
the lines that are, hey, can Isum this all up in one line?
(30:57):
And that's true.
And, uh, so after the swordfight in the courtyard, uh,
between hamlet and Claudius,there is, uh, uh, this great
line.
Claudia's has as he's, you know,defeated a hamlet.
He says, you debate what to donext and meanwhile you do next
to nothing.
And I'm like, Yep, that's theplay.
That's it.
(31:18):
Yeah.
You just,
Speaker 1 (31:18):
you do make what to do the entire time that the play
is going on, but you don'tactually do anything.
Right.
And it's like, that's, Claudiusis burn.
You waited five hours to killme.
Lazy millennial.
I don't know what else.
Well, no, I don't know what thatwe just gen x did.
We did.
And I'm so sorry because I wasborn with that teen 80
Speaker 3 (31:44):
young ins.
All right, so another line thatClaudius has is he says a, the
better man does not always win.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yes.
And that's true.
Those of you who do know ahamlet and even those who, who
don't, the, the way that thiskind of just interweaves scenes
that are offstage really for theplay itself, by interweaving
them in, by how they'redesigned.
You could actively, and I did, Iactively watched this film and
(32:14):
went, yeah, I, I buy that.
This is all just stuff thatcouldn't go into the five hour
play know, making this an eighthour play, you know, would,
would, would be a way of gettingall of this incorporated and it
all makes sense.
Well written to that
Speaker 3 (32:31):
point of view, right?
Uh,[inaudible] has a differentpoint of view what's going on in
Ophelia and it's, it's like allthose, uh, uh, one of the, one
of the stories I see types ofstories I really love is when
you take a different point ofview on something that everybody
kind of accepts as normal.
So if you are hearing the wickedstepmother's point of view
instead of Cinderella, all of asudden it's like, oh, this is
the same story.
(32:51):
This is a completely differentstory.
Yeah.
Maleficent would be a veryrecent example.
Uh, so now symbolism is where Iget all super gaped out.
I'll hit two to three big thingsthat I liked.
One, obviously flowers, not justthe symbolism behind the meaning
of every flower, but the factthat the all the other ladies in
(33:12):
waiting, they all have jewelsand she has flowers and it's a
status thing.
The flowers kind of end up beingused all over the place, whether
they're in Gertrude's bath orthey're being used to make, uh,
remedies or poisons by thehealer.
Uh, and then there are two bigthings, one of one central.
(33:34):
I think if you're going to gowith the biggest amount of
symbolism or foreshadowing in,uh, in this film, it's gotta be
around knowledge and they hitknowledge so many different
ways.
We start with Philios first timein court.
Uh, they've, they're talkingabout Adam and eve and, uh, and
uh, cause, uh, Ham was going tocollege, right?
And so they're, they're talkingabout a, the, the sin of
(33:55):
knowledge and a Ophelia pipes upand says the, I think she thinks
the apple is quite innocent inthe whole affair.
Uh, and I, I love that.
Uh, and then it's used again.
There's a, there's a snake whenshe is, uh, going to the witch
slash healer and the murderer ofthe king is leaving.
(34:15):
She is hiding and she doesn'tsee who it is, but she sees the
murderer leave.
And as they're crossing in frontof her, there's a black snake
that crosses in front of herfeet.
I think knowledge pretty muchrepresents danger, uh, because
we see it over and over againwith the Adam and Eve story with
Ophelia not permitted to read.
And yet she, uh, layer cheeseteaches her anyway and uh, how
(34:38):
she witnesses Gertrude andClaudia skating it on and the
burden of that knowledge that ahamlet school takes him away
from her.
And that in turn kind of putstheir love in danger.
If you were to go there, thewitches, a knowledge of poison
and remedy causes a whole bunchof issues.
I, hamlet refers to a sharppoint within when he's talking
to Claudius about how God says a, a sword to his throat, and he
(35:01):
goes, well, my sharp point lieswithin.
It's like my, my brain is whereI can really hurt you.
My smarts hurt Shrewd Warren'saffiliate not to look, uh, at
the witch's face when she goesthere and she does it anyway.
Uh, that one.
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (35:17):
that's, that's, that's just dollars.
Like go, go, go get me some moretonic.
But, but definitely don't lookat the twin me.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Right.
So madness.
Let's talk madness.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
This is one of those areas where, especially when it
comes to affiliate and, and thetext of the Bard, there so many
interpretations that can happen.
Right?
You can have it where, uh, sheis mad.
She isn't mad.
She's mad because she's withchild.
She's mad just cause it's aTuesday.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Yeah.
And there's a, the foils, uh,thought that layer tease is a
foil for hamlet, right.
Because Hamlet's father ismurdered and how he seeks to, uh
, um, come to closure and then alayer[inaudible] same thing
happens in how he approaches it.
But, uh, the madness parallelis, is really between hamlet and
Ophelia.
(36:10):
Does hamlet pretend to go mad sothat he can figure everything
out and take his time?
Uh, or, uh, does he really gomad?
And it's, it's part of why he'sstalling is he's just lost his
mind.
Yeah.
Uh, and Ophelia, did she go madbecause the man that she loved
when, you know, kind ofportrayed her, killed her
(36:31):
father, and, uh, she's, uh, gotnowhere to go.
She's pregnant.
All kinds of craziness.
No Pun intended.
Or does she fake madness becauseshe sees what hamlet did.
He's mad, I'll go mad.
And that way I can get awaywith, you know, maybe nobody
knowing.
Yeah.
And I'm breaking
Speaker 1 (36:48):
that specifically is one of the things that I found
so rich of a, about this film.
Neither of them has gone mad.
They're using again, like I hadmentioned previously, those
scenes that we don't see inhamlet, the play to communicate
(37:08):
with each other in a way thatthey say things that the other
understands to, to be, you know,rich bonus subtext.
But at the same time, we nowbeing the audience are able to
go, oh, okay.
They're communicating in a senseof code in the play itself.
And in this film, there is ascene where a Claudius, uh, and
(37:32):
Polonius use Ophelia as bait totry to understand is hamlet
actually crazy or you know, isit a ruse?
And, and they did a very goodjob of having this subtext.
They were whispering to eachother yeah.
Under their breath, what, youknow, the, the actual text as
(37:53):
opposed to those moments whenthey would then yell out the
subtext that makes them seemcrazy.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Well, Ophelia is such an amazing character.
She says, just strong character.
And I think people kind of getgiddy about the mad scene.
They're like, well, you got togo mad.
And that becomes the focus.
Or maybe it's the focus, uh, forall kinds of reasons.
But I think one of thestrongest, one of the best, most
challenging scenes is this scenewhere Ophelia has to be, uh, in
front of the man she loves andpretty much be tried to ask, try
(38:20):
to ask him like, what's going onwithout coming across the fact
that she am totally breaking.
I'm draining you right now byhaving your listen and there's
so much going on.
The scene is usually sotraumatic to watch because it's
heartbreaking and yet a in thisI love madness is their secret
code.
I, I, we, we think, uh, havingseen it, I was like, I wish, you
(38:41):
know, uh, we'd seen more of itbeing a secret code that's
yelled out loud where we're, theaudience can be like, Oh I know
what you mean.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
That one is trying to pass a lot of information.
She is imparting the knowledgethat Claudius killed Hamlet's
father.
She has proof.
She just got that proof.
Uh, and, and, and so she'shaving to tell him that dude,
your uncle is kind of in a holeand killed your father.
(39:09):
Uh, I have all the proof.
And so there, like I said, thereis a lot of information that has
to get passed between the two ofthem.
And I, I might have to take athird pass at it.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
No, I want to see it again.
Like, cause that was one of thethings that I was like, Oh, I
love that madness is a secretcode and that it's not just in
that scene.
It's in the, the, when theplayers come to do the play to,
you know, catch the conscienceof the king.
Right.
So that they do that, uh, andthere, and then it's not limited
to just hamlets official madnessscenes, but uh, affiliates as
(39:38):
well as the fact that when shegoes mad and, uh, in front of
Claudius and Gertrude andlayered, Jeez.
Uh, with the flowers and a, shepretends to go mad in front of
them to escape in this version.
When she does this, she'shinting to her ratio in code the
whole time.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Yeah.
Dig me up.
I'm going to be dead.
Yeah.
Not so much code that, you know,please dig me up.
Dig me up.
Actually tonight.
Can you make sure before I amcold, before I am caught 10
nights.
You get me, I'm not nudge wink.
Yeah.
This is really important.
Got It.
Two at a time.
Yeah, no, fuck me on this.
(40:15):
Yeah.
But, but again, I also like thatnow granted it, it's a nod to a
completely nother ShakespeareShakespearian play.
There is the, the pretty much,uh, Juliet, Ian, you know, uh,
ruse where, where she takes apoison that mimics death but
(40:37):
mocks it well, and they boththink the other one's dead.
Just like Romeo and Juliet.
Only hamlet has this opportunityto walk away and can't Yup.
Chooses not to, I choose to say,can't teach.
He chooses not to.
And that in, in my, uh, in myview was the moment where I'm
(40:57):
like this whole vengeance.
I mean, that's the poison.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, and, but he can't, he can't,he's already taken it.
He can't walk away from it.
And when she says, I think shejust says goodbye to my love.
Yeah.
Like that's, that's her.
I tried, I'm leaving goodbye.
And then her departure from themadness.
(41:19):
Yeah.
And so to talk about the, again,differences between the Bard and
, and the movie that Gertrude,yes.
Yes.
Actually the one who slaysClaudius.
Oh yeah.
Where in the play we're all at,you know, o o Hamlet, you know,
after taking the poison to thearm, realizes what's going on,
(41:39):
the queen drinks a poison andthen all of a sudden him in a,
you know, finally violent rage.
He goes, Oh, I know I've spentfive acts kind of just dicking
around here, but now I'm finallygoing to become a man of action.
No, I like the fact thatthroughout this hamlet still is
not the man of action.
He's just jousting or jousting.
(42:00):
He's, he's, he's doing combatwith layer tees because he's
been challenged to call.
Yeah, he's been challenged andhe's got an extra thing.
But that Gertrude is actuallythe one who's like, oh my
fucking Christ you, you slayedmy husband.
You, you killed my son.
Fuck this.
You're done.
And then afterwards she's like,yeah, there's just nothing left.
And then drinks poison.
(42:21):
Right.
And then when you see like thelayout, if you were to come upon
the scene later.
Yes, exactly.
CSI people that show up.
If you're the Norwegians comingto this and the mass murder and
you're like, oh, well it'sHamlin sword in Claudia.
So obviously he killed[inaudible].
He's the one who did it andthey're the ones who perpetuate
this story.
She must've drank poisoned by me.
Like they could draw their ownconclusions.
(42:43):
Hence where the story, the, the,the play story comes from.
And the reason that Opheliastory, it's like you think you
know my story, but you don'tactually know my story.
Her opening line.
And it was high time that Ishould tell you my story myself.
This is right after, you know,she sinks, you know, into the,
into the water and you know, thetitle is revealed.
(43:04):
I mean, I was hooked between themusic, between, you know, the
script, the visuals, everything.
I was like, OK, yeah, I'm, I,you got me.
What I loved about this momentwas I was like, you know, we
always, to me, I always look athamlet as, Oh yeah, hamlet is,
you know, the Shakespearian tale.
What I loved about thisintroduction was this happened
(43:27):
and Shakespeare did hisinterpretation of it.
But that's not what happened.
Yeah.
I'm going to tell you whatreally happened because she even
refers to it as myth.
Yes.
Specifically because her issueis being beaten to a pulp in the
background.
Like we, we don't have reallyanyone left alive, uh, at the
end of that movie to tell anystory other than what, as Trisha
(43:52):
pointed out, a CSI person wouldbe like, yeah, this is how it
went down.
And that's the story that theShakespeare writes.
You know, how many versions ofhamlet have I seen?
Two too many, maybe, maybe.
But I've never gottenemotionally attached to ratio.
He's always been like, oh,you're just with the band.
He's just that guy that hadtalks to on occasions so the
(44:12):
audience can hear what Ann wasthinking.
He's just the guy that's like,well, is he more than just, you
know, just, I mean, really,there's, there's not much to her
ratio that I've seen portrayedbefore.
He's always been referred to asthis true friend.
And I was like, yeah, okay.
And here in this film, he is,he's everybody's
Speaker 3 (44:32):
true friend.
He's a brave, loyal, uh, amazingguy that, uh, both Ophelia and
hamlet lean on to, uh, help themget through it.
And Oh my God, I love the waythey portray him and I love the
way that layer cheeses portrayedin this film as well.
Then he, you have thatrelationship between brother and
sister.
Uh, and it's simple.
It just in using him, teachingher to read, you've created this
(44:55):
whole relationship that isreally touching.
So in the band instead of like agroupie or like a backup singer,
he's like the drummer.
He's like keeping beat.
Yeah.
He's Ringo.
Two more things that I'd like tosay.
One, I find it interesting, the,uh, the use of fathers in the
film, uh, the fact that we get,uh, the king alive for more than
(45:16):
any other version.
Yeah.
Actually, the second time this,the one time I paused it, I was
like, wait a minute, you justdied and it's what?
It's over a half hour into themovie.
And I was like, wow.
Right.
But he's like window dressingand Polonius they hit on when a
Polonius is like, you know, hisbig, to thine own self be true
speech, they hit on that.
But other than that, he'sbackground.
(45:38):
So the king doesn't get a voicereally at all.
And Polonius is, is, uh, verydownplayed.
So there really is no fatherfigure present actively in
either affilia or Hamlet's lifein the film.
And then the other thing that Ifound interesting, the sisters,
uh, I love the idea of the factthat they're, they're yin and
(46:00):
Yang, that they both been withClaudius and one way, well one
does, but only because he justman, yes.
And the fact that he is, youknow, on the, uh, he is the, the
reason the untimely end to bothof their children.
Uh, and, uh, the, the, the, uh,the one depends on the other.
(46:21):
Uh, and even see like thewitches usually, and what's her,
what's her character name, youknow, and she is usually in, uh,
black or dark colors andGertrude and white.
Yes.
And especially in that lastsequence when, when you see
them.
Uh, yeah.
And that's that beautifulsequence where she sees what
(46:44):
Gertrude's t doing and all of asudden all her, oh my God, my
sister's such an annoyance.
Just drops.
And it's, Oh my God, no, no, no,no, no, no.
She's the older sister and theolder sister and yes, in grade
shrewd mentions that, that, youknow, she had an older sister to
protect her even though I thinkthey're twins.
So like we're talking like elderby like minutes.
(47:05):
They are, they are like nightand day, just like their, their
costuming representative Bri andtheir presentation.
They are at night and day inwhat they value and uh, and uh,
what they, how they react tosituations.
Yes.
Uh, and yet both of them cansay, can't say no to Claudius.
That's the one thing they reallyhave in common.
There's, there's something thatI wanna I want to throw out
(47:26):
there.
We hear in bubs, in a mom, we,we love
Speaker 1 (47:30):
the movies that we're watching.
Hopefully we're lovers.
You know, we're, we're here to,uh, be advocates for the
independent film that we aretalking about.
So I wanted to just read acouple of, um, uh, highlight
reviews of people who trashed tothis.
[inaudible] going to lie.
You think Trisha and I werehaving a quick debate on this
(47:52):
and then she did a quick reviewof, of some of them.
I had actually read some of thereviews, the trashed reviews,
and I'm like, fuck theseassholes.
Well, everybody, you know, itdepends.
You have a bad day and look atit from a different point, but
you're just fucking truly way tosee Shakespeare is the one way
you've always seen this playdone.
Just like the one way star warsis done as the only way it's
(48:13):
going, where it's going to bedone.
I have done repertory theaternow when I did repertory theater
at Illinois Shakespeare Festival, uh, you know, uh, shout out
Illinois shakes.
Uh, I was of course a, you know,third spearmint on left.
Uh, no real, no real parts, so Iwas brilliant as third spearman.
Um, but there were people whowould sit there with the
(48:34):
Riverside or the Arden, uh, youknow, book in their lap and, and
you could actually hear themlike when lines were cut or, or
lines were, were, were, youknow, told a different way.
They'd be like, man, I did itwrong.
Put the book down.
Just wants to fucking show.
All right.
So, um, let's start with, um,Chicago reader.
(48:56):
Um, it says the picture isnowhere near as memorable as
other controversial twists onmisunderstood women of history
and fiction.
Whoa.
What could they give an example?
I was going to say what other, Icould read the full review and
maybe they do go into it, butthat's the highlight.
Okay.
These are, these are relishtomatoes highlights to me that
(49:18):
that person from Chicago reader,God love u Chicago reader, um,
was having a bad day.
That that makes no sense to me.
Never liked hamlet.
That's possible.
But that prejudice there is areally strong female film
outright from start to finish isfrom real views.
There wasn't much to Hamlet'sOphelia and there's not a lot
(49:40):
more to this productions versionof her.
Yeah, I don't think they likehamlet.
I think that's somebody who justdoesn't like the play.
This is from the AustralianFinancial Review.
I don't know why they arereviewing movies.
Fox and hound going to reviewwith Julia Roberts[inaudible]
which I actually just watchedfor the first time, so it's
(50:01):
very, very fresh in my brain.
Then now you know horse andHound[inaudible] say five.
Is there any horses you're film?
Well it took place in space.
The first casualty isShakespeare's richness of
language, which was obviouslyjudged too complicated to be
(50:22):
imposed upon a generationbrought up on social media.
Okay.
I would say that
Speaker 3 (50:27):
person is very full of themselves.
Extremely or you know, just fullof self-like you know, like
yourself a lot or way too muchof a Shakespeare for you know,
and if they're gonna use socialmedia then like that, that that
right there, that statement islike a mental selfie.
They just love talking about howsmart they are.
Yeah.
Okay.
And now I'm going to do my ownplug.
Uh, no fear, Shakespeare, uh,anybody who really wants to get
(50:50):
a lot out of, uh, the text, uh,because at least Elizabethan, uh
, language is not something thatis, this lang is gone.
Nobody knows it.
And so it's one of those thingswhere you get extra stuff out of
the text.
Like there are some things youcan totally follow.
Cause if you read enoughShakespeare, you're gonna follow
it, right?
(51:11):
But then there are things thatare even, uh, you know, slip
past.
But usually it's the filthystuff that you lose out on
because you're not aware of theslang.
Oh, he's, so I would, I wouldvery much recommend it if you
really enjoy filthy stuffbecause Shakespeare's got a lot
of, yeah.
And to me,
Speaker 1 (51:28):
w w what I like about this is right off the bat,
affilia tells you, look, youthink you know this story, but
that's myth.
That's that, that's somebodyelse's interpreter,
Speaker 3 (51:41):
Laurie in language.
That's not what we actuallysaid.
Okay.
Let me tell you what we actuallysaid.
That was that those were my topthree.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Okay.
All right, good.
One.
One thing that we, we really doappreciate is our listeners and
thank you for guys for choosingthis podcast and supporting
specifically independent films.
As you can see, we are very bigadvocates of independent films,
you know, so, uh, keep your earout for our next episode, uh,
which we will be talking about.
Hearts beat loud, starting NickOfferman and Kiersey Clemons.
(52:11):
The drowning of Philia, uh, canbe found on our website, uh,
along with a couple a beautifulshots of it.
It is a very beautiful, uh,drink.
This, um, goes down nice andeasy, comes back with a
vengeance, uh, to check out ourshow notes, uh, or drop us a
note, uh, visit us on, uh,imbibe cinema.com.
(52:34):
And once again, I am Jonathan cleg and thanks for imbibing with
us.
Cheers.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
[inaudible] make change.
[inaudible]
Speaker 3 (52:55):
this is me.
Woe is me.
They have seen what I've seen.
♫Whoa is me, woe is me.
They have seen what I've seen.
Yes.
My mamma didn't let them makechange on me.
Put change on me.
Yeah, whoa is me, woe is me.
This is the product of A.D.D.
Apothecary, not for me, I dreamnaturally.
Yeah, woe is me.
Woe is me.
They have seen what I've seen.
♫
Jonathan (00:21):
Greetings and or salutations.
And welcome back to ImbibeCinema.
I'm your host, Jonathan C.
Legat.
I'm a alongside Michael Noensand Tricia Legat.
Uh, in this episode we're goingto be discussing Ophelia, which
is, uh, currently available ondigital download as well as
rental.
While we imbibe The Drowning InPhel— The Drowning In Phileo...
(00:46):
"The Drowning Ophelia." That'sreally sad when you're already
starting to screw up the name ofeverything, um, drink.
Yes, yes it is.
It's potent.
It's vodka.
So, uh, it is found in a bookwhich is Shakespeare, not
stirred cocktails for youreveryday dramas.
Uh, we found this drink, uh, ithas flowers floating just like
(01:07):
Ophelia.
It is very apropos.
So, um, imbibe cinema podcast isbrought to you by the blue
whiskey independent filmfestival, otherwise known as
boys.
Uh, the festival seeksindependent character driven
films of all lengths, styles andgenres.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So to learn more, visit us at[inaudible] dot com
once again, that is BWI f f.com.
Um, ask for the film.
I felt this was a greatindependent film and, and I know
Tricia was very excited aboutthis one.
Um, uh, this particular one andtwo to quote the complete works
of William Shakespeare bridged.
I love my Willie.
(01:43):
Um, uh, but specifically from,from the first shot of this
film, which is right out of thesurge, John Everett[inaudible],
uh, painting.
You could tell that ClaireMcCarthy who the director of
this film was also extremelyexcited about bringing this
particular film to the screen.
Yeah, absolutely.
I did see Hollywood reporter dida, uh, a little interview, um,
(02:04):
with a cast.
Well, members of the castingcrew and Claire McCarthy was
there, um, along with the TomFelton layer to yeah.
Yes.
And um, right.
By the way, I was watching this,I was like, man, he looks really
familiar.
He's not wearing green and he'snot a complete Dick.
Wow.
He's not in slithering rightnow.
Okay, that makes sense.
(02:24):
It was only until like earliertoday.
I was like, that's where I knew.
Anyway, that's how good an actorhe is.
Yes, there you go.
Like you could be the most, oneof the most famous hated
characters all the time andyou're like, I just can't put my
finger on it.
Naomi Watts was specificallytalking about how Claire
McCarthy would put daisy in, inNaomi in a room and have them do
(02:49):
like a bunch of rehearsal.
Naomi even made a comment abouthow she was like a, brought me
back to my, uh, my, uh, highschool theater days like that
lucky, you know, theater, um,uh, and practice
Speaker 3 (03:00):
this.
But she said, you know, it's setup such a great connection, a
great bonding opportunity forthe two of them.
And I, I totally agree.
I mean, they, they clearly had agreat, a great time on this film
at 1000% degree.
Uh, you know, especially NaomiWatts plays two characters,
absolutely riveting performanceby her.
(03:21):
Um, and while this is, you know,we're, we're going to be
discussing the, the story muchlater, but the material, this
was not as dark to a degree aslike hamlet is right on who's
putting it up and how they'representing it.
That's trace a lot like the,like Shakespeare, like the Bible
has a lot of room forinterpretation.
(03:42):
People will see one thing andthey'll focus on that and
they'll ignore other things thatyou can see a presentation of
any of his plays and they cantranslate differently depending
on who's doing it, um, within atime period.
Right.
Um, so when it comes to this,and it's one of my all time
favorite, uh, plays of, youknow, just, uh, I mean, yes, my
(04:04):
mother did read to us hamlet asa smell children because she
thought the pokey little puppywas redundant.
I don't know.
She had problems with the small,with, with children's
literature.
Oh yeah.
She, and then she did, sheproduced three, uh, artistic,
um, creative types who had aavoidance to careers with health
insurance.
And it really is, I love youmom.
(04:27):
But she would read hamlet to uswhen we were little.
When it comes to the cast.
I, one of the reasons I love, uh, daisy Ridley in this is she
has, uh, this great way ofbeing, presenting herself, being
very strong and very vulnerableat the same time.
Yes, I've been in love withNaomi since King Kong, King Kong
(04:48):
watching.
I mean, and it's sad because Idon't remember the name of the
character and I think everybodyalways, nobody does.
I think everybody just calls itthe fe ray character because
Faye Ray played and it was soright.
So nowhere they, nobody botheredto know the characters name.
But in watching her do thatwhere she's just acting with a
(05:09):
green screen and just to bringso much humor and humanity in
when she's all by herself andhave a relationship with
nothing.
I mean very few actors I thinkare capable of doing that or a
at doing it as eloquently as heror you know, Tom hangs with a
volleyball.
Um, and I will say there is areverse ageism I find that is
(05:33):
applied to hamlet in any motionpicture.
And let me just pull up my dataon this cause I was curious if I
was correct, if I was just likebeing prejudice whenever they
release a major motion picturedata.
Yeah.
So here's my, here's my, uh, my,my, my data for you all.
Uh, so, uh, 1948 pain to aproduction of hamlet on film
(05:56):
that Sir Lawrence Olivier, whowas 41 years old at the time
playing hamlet.
Then Mel Gibson plays.
Yeah, Mil Kempson plays him in1990.
He's 34.
So a young ENT like Kenny theBrennan Plays Hamlet.
Yeah.
Ken The front of plays hamlet at36.
(06:17):
Ethan Hawke plays him in 2000 at30.
And then David Tennant who Ilove and is such a damn good
actor, plays him at 38.
And I'm sorry, hamlet is not inhis thirties.
You don't even, Juliet were intheir teens and we make a big
deal of casting young for that.
Right?
So why in God's name is Hamlin amiddle aged man.
(06:39):
He's never have.
We're a middle aged man.
And so this is the first time wesee somebody under 30 because
George is 27.
Okay.
[inaudible] baby face.
So even if he was over 30, I'dgive it to them on the fact that
he looks, he looks the partnobody else did.
(07:00):
Now here's, here's one theorythat on that, and specifically I
know it's, you know, floatingsome of these, these actors egos
a little bit, but I think thatthere is a certain amount of
chops that, that an actor musthave to play hamlet in hamlet.
Whereas I was blown away byGeorge Mackay's performance in
this, but he's not doingHamlet's monologues.
(07:23):
He's not doing hamlet,Soliloquy, Z's not performing as
hamlet.
This is, this is a story about afailure.
This is hamlet as a supportingrole.
Yeah, exactly.
But then it shows off a lot of,I mean there's, because when you
play hamlet, there's so much tocover, right?
You've got the fact that he'strying to decide what to do.
Uh, his relationship with hismother is a big problem.
(07:44):
His relationship with his uncleis a big problem.
Uh, it, we've got Rosencrantzand Guildenstern for comic
relief.
I mean there's just, there's alot going on in Ofelia is just
one side note and what's goingon.
Right?
Because in this you get to seehow much hamlet really does love
Ophelia and it is, it's in theoriginal text, but there's just
(08:07):
so much text, hey, say thiswhole, like the longest play, uh
, that Shakespeare wrote, and Icould be wrong, I really didn't
check this, but he's one of, ifnot one of the longest plays
that he's ever, uh, that hewrote and it, uh, with the
shortest plot, it basicallynothing happens.
Yup.
And it could be spiritualSeinfeld.
(08:28):
There's, it's, it's, we're justsitting around talking about
nothing really.
It's just not true.
He is, nothing happens.
He taught, he talks a lot ofaction in, in, in the play.
He talks a lot of action butdoes nothing.
Right.
So it's really interesting tohave him as a supporting
character because he actuallydoes a lot more when he's not
the center of the focus.
Right.
And I think every, everycharacter in here, to a degree,
(08:52):
I would even say Clive Owen'scharacter, not necessarily Clive
Owen, but cla,
Speaker 1 (08:56):
ply bones, character of Claudia's.
There was hints of comedy aswell as the hints as well as the
weight of things lighter.
Yeah, there was, there werelighter moments too, to cloudy
human beings in order to reallybe afraid of somebody, you kind
of have to be able to laugh atsome point or be able to, uh,
(09:18):
feel for them on some level.
You have to be some humanity toreally fear them.
I think some of the greatestvillains are the scariest people
like John Lithgow.
Terrifying, but adorable at thesame time.
It's true.
He can do both.
Yes.
David Tennant, yes.
Also very scary.
Although, so we've kind of hit alot on, uh, on the actors
(09:39):
specifically, but I kind of wantto bring, you know, turn this a
little bit onto the, the crew.
So like specifically, uh, ClaireMcCarthy, uh, she actually did
win a, a directors to watch fromthe Paulden Springs
International Film Festival forthis film.
What I found really fascinatingwhen it comes to like the crew
compliment, um, is that, um, herand, uh, Denson, Baker, uh,
(10:04):
who's the cinematographer, thiswas actually their fifth project
together.
Uh, and they actually have twothat are in either pre or post
production right now.
Oh Wow.
That they have kind of found a,you know, this, this cohesive,
uh, you know, meld between thetwo of them and they work
together on everything.
And I'm not gonna lie the, thecinematography, the, the, uh,
(10:26):
the amount of symbolism, whichwe'll also get to when we get to
the story, but like, they didsuch a great job of telling the
story through their shots,through the, everything in the
background.
It was just as stunning aseverything that was going on, on
the photograph.
Specifically kind of, uh, tocomment on the, the moment when
Ophelia is told that hamlet hasbeen killed by a Rosencrantz and
(10:50):
Guildenstern and she has likethat breakdown in uh, like, uh,
she goes into like the, it'slike a tree, like a almost like
a willow and I, she kinda has abreakdown there but like the,
the, the break of shots that youshow like time going by into the
evening before she ends up onthe top of paragons.
Yeah, that whole, there's likethis one shot, um, that's like
(11:12):
at, it looks like sunset.
Um, she's just standing in themiddle of a field, this foggy
field, very ghostly and it's alljust carried through with like
with a, with the score to thatmoment.
And we, we bring up the score inthis.
Now granted, I will actuallyhere, let me, let, let me go to
the cinematography moment that Ifound absolutely fascinating.
(11:32):
And I know Trisha and I haddiscussed this previously, but
the, the point where she hasdrowned herself, there is this
beautiful shot where the, the,the screen is essentially
flipped upside down where she isfloating in it face up in the
water, but she is down on the,on
Speaker 3 (11:54):
the screen and it's just such a, this beautiful
mirror kind of thing going on.
And just what an amazing shotthat was.
Uh, two to really drive home.
What's the weight of everythingthat's going on?
And uh, the opening shot whereyou sh you show her, uh, laying
in the water and then listening,same thing.
(12:14):
And then she sings, uh, the, thebed where she's laying there and
on one hand she's grasping ontoa bouquet of flowers.
And I think to myself, whatdrowning?
Wouldn't it be like justfloating away?
Why are you grabbing like thedeath grip around these flowers
is intense, but then we knowthere's somebody symbolism about
(12:35):
Ophelia in the flowers.
And so, but that shot with herholding those flowers so tightly
, uh, stuck in my head.
So then later when we, whenshe's drowning and she's
grasping so tightly onto thatbottle of nightshade, uh, which
you know, is flour and poisoned,uh, then it's like, oh my God,
those are the flowers.
(12:55):
That's it.
That's why we regret that.
And visually I'm seeing it justthrough the cinematography
they're showing me it's the samething.
Yeah.
And I love that.
Uh, one of the things that gotme a cinematography wise was the
use of the pillars in the court.
Uh, and the fact that in her, inthe first scene we see, of
course she's a child and she'swalking on the outside of the
(13:15):
pillars.
Uh, and accord is within thosepillars.
She's walking on the outside,cause she's an outsider.
She's not part of the court.
And, uh, her brother's tellingher to get out of there and she
kind of runs in between thepillars and stinks under a table
so she can see better.
So now all of a sudden she'sinside court.
Uh, and then the last shot ofher in court is her and, uh,
(13:37):
hamlet parting ways.
And he is on the inside of thepillars.
And she's on the outside andthey walk parallel as they walk
the length of court and she'sleaving and he's going to face
his death.
And the fact that they're justwalking next to each other but
not but not.
And she's on the outside andhe's on the end and it's just
like, oh it's so beautifullyshot.
(13:57):
I love that.
Beautifully shot.
Beautifully directed that, Imean that there is so much
attention to that detail.
There's so much.
I know I missed cause I only gotto see it one time and I'm like,
oh I'm, I took ridiculous amountof notes and John made fun of me
trying to pause.
I will.
And that's the funny thing toothat you mentioned that because
I rented this on apple and so Isaw it on Thursday night.
(14:20):
I think you guys did too.
Yup.
Saturday morning I had like fourhours left.
Um, as I like pulled it up on myapple TV and I was like, okay,
I'm going to, I'm going to watchit again and take more notes.
I actually did write a lot ofnotes the first time, but after
I watched the movie pretty muchI was like furiously writing and
I'm trying to also make sense oflike these one word things that
I wrote down.
(14:40):
Raz, I was watching it and sothe, what I thought was so great
was when I did sit down to takemore notes, I made no notes.
I just ended up watching a movieagain.
That's exactly what happened
Speaker 1 (14:52):
to me.
I did watch it a second time andI was just wrapped.
Yeah, I mean it's a movie youcould watch, which is
interesting because I don't knowif I would say the same thing
about any a film adaptation ofHamlet.
Yes.
But I would watch it twicewithin 48 hours.
This I would watch over and overagain because I know that
there's, it's like, you know, abeautiful lead, delicious onion
(15:13):
and there's just so many layers.
Yeah.
And as your one per phase areprobably a better piece of
delicious.
Yes.
But no, it is interesting thatthe second time there were a lot
more things that I was pickingup on specifically in the one
that the Tricia pointed outimmediately after the, the, the
movie finished, she went andgrabbed the, uh, the Shakespeare
(15:34):
hamlet off off the shelf and itwas feverish, feverish Lee
opening the book and she openedit amazingly enough and scarily
enough to the page she wasthinking but then kept thinking
second guessing and turning tomore pages.
But uh, there is a, a speechspecific, let me pull it up for
you.
Oh, it's right here.
It's one of my favorite speechesof Polonius is uh, which is the
(15:56):
a tis match.
His pity to spit each is true tohis man.
He was like, stay a wild man.
Stay awhile.
I will be faithful.
I'm going to be brief aboutthis, but I'm going to talking
to the five minutes.
I love, I love how uh, Poloniustalks.
Yeah.
He winds me up.
And uh, I had actually learnedthis speech a long time ago for
speech team.
(16:16):
No, just cause it was my, forsomething doubt that the stars
are fire doubt, the sun dothmove, doubt, truth to be a liar,
but never doubt.
I love what a fantastictransition to Stephen prices.
Awesome score.
Yes, exactly.
And so that, that was exactlywhat Trisha thought it was only
(16:38):
in the very end of the movie,but the second time I watched it
because she found that quote andread it aloud to me while we
were, you know, continuing toimbibe other alcohol.
The second time I watched it,that is actually echoed
throughout all of the keymoments.
It's either in a whisper whenright when she's about to take
her own life, uh, with the nightshade.
(17:00):
It's being whispered thatparticular sentence as being
whispered.
And then again, as, as hamlet isgoing on, you know, walking
towards his death and she iswalking out of the court that is
actually being sung.
And so the score to this wasjust dripping with, with
amazingness.
Uh, and yeah, Steven StevenPrice just a little bit on him.
Um, cause I've, I've uh, lovedhis, uh, his music baby driver.
(17:24):
I mean, obviously you have tomention, uh, his score for
gravity, um, which he, I believehe won, um, the Oscar for as
well.
I have like a three d score togo with the fact that the movie
was 3d and constantly like thatspinning, um, feel in the music.
I mean, it, it's, it'sremarkable.
And then he, if you guys havewatched our planet on Netflix,
(17:46):
Yep.
Incredible score, that's him.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Um, and going into this, I mean, it's very
different, very, very differentthan, than stuff I've heard of
him his before.
But it does make me question,especially like the use of that
in, in the score.
I wonder, did that originatewith Claire McCarthy or did data
originate in him?
Or was that something that I wasborn between, you know, like a
(18:12):
conversation between the two ofthem because it's, it like a,
the way that I felt about itafterwards, which is, you know,
Apropos those lyrics hunt themovie.
Oh God, they feel like ahaunting of, of over the entire
story, which I think is perfect.
And it's like, it's brilliant.
Right?
And those, I mean, that is, uh,that is Hamlet's love letter
(18:34):
that Maloney's is reading toOphelia that affiliated
surrendered to her father andhe, he's reading back to the
Queen, uh, to, uh, show howhamlet is crazy, but he's crazy
in love.
One of the reasons, and mindyou, I had gone on this weird
tangent about how I love hamletand it's the longest play about
nothing.
And my mom read it to me, butreason I love hamlet of all of
(18:56):
Shakespeare's plays.
I don't think I actually got tothe point, you know, they laugh
cause it's common is a, the factthat I love that every character
in this is motivated by love ora version, either a twisted
version of love.
Uh, but I mean obviously hamletloves his father.
(19:19):
Oh, Ophelia loves her father.
Hamlet loves his mother.
Claudius loves his mother to uh,Eh, well, I mean, and even her
ratio, it's a friend that's aplatonic love.
That's all.
We love her now.
She wanted to talk about herratio.
Thank you.
I was about to say that becausewhen you had made the comment
John, about how, you know, likeevery cast member they showed up
(19:43):
and brought their, their a plusplus game.
Um, they, they clearly wereloving everything that they were
doing.
I mean, down to your, yoursmallest characters.
I felt like the rose bullyturned the guard, like fully,
fully developed.
Obviously, you know, there'ssource material, but I mean
(20:04):
fully developed in the shortamount of time that we get to
know them.
And I mean Horatio does haveactually quite a bit of screen
time, but I like loved a, whatdoes a Devon, Devon Terrell,
yeah, his, her ratio.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
In the second time that I sawit, I didn't get to see him in
the end, in the background.
(20:25):
I was taking notes at that time.
He looks over and I'm like, I'mwriting for her ratios.
Right.
I mean, first time I actuallycared about her ratio, the, the
thing.
And again, in, in, once we comeback from our break, we'll
really discuss kind of the, the,the story, uh, and, and you know
, where it differs from the,the, the source material, if you
(20:45):
will.
But it was heartbreaking to seeHoratio just get
Speaker 1 (20:48):
beaten in the background as opposed to like,
you know, having his, his momentin the sun.
It's just literally like thewhole point of the ratio
character.
The only last person that, thatI would like to bring up is a
Massimo, uh, Contini Perrine, uh, who is the, uh, the, the
costume designer.
Oh, he did?
(21:09):
Uh, it's, uh, Masimo ContiniBahraini it's an awesome, it is
just so fun to say.
The, the, the costumes in thiswere absolutely amazing and, and
Masimo did, uh, like thebrothers Grimm or, uh, talk of
tails, uh, costume designs aswell.
And, and, and both of those kindof had this, this element of
modern ask, but at the same timereally hitting period piece, if
(21:32):
you will.
Um, and, uh, especially like the, the ballroom scene where it's
the masquerade ball and justeverything that he did, it was,
it was absolutely fantasticseeing that costume design
specifically.
I don't find myself noticing thecostume design in like a
particular moment, um, in, in myfirst watch.
But, um, the, the moment wherethey're standing in front of the
(21:54):
tapestry and you know, a hamhamlet walks up and you know,
walks over and you know, Opheliaand him are having this, this
back and forth, that moment whenwe, we moved back and we see the
whole group.
What I love is that there's likea, a, like this gold that's in
the costume for literallyeverybody except for a few.
(22:14):
Really?
Yeah.
And it, it makes your eye goimmediately to her.
The fact that she's so muted inthat shot start contrast.
That's good.
Costume does.
I realized, I was like, wait aminute.
Everybody's got a little gold tothem.
Uh, you know what?
We're going to take a a halfminute here.
My glass is empty.
And so we're going to fill upthese glasses and imbibe a
little bit more.
After this.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
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Speaker 1 (23:09):
you're listening to imbibe cinema.
Once again, I am Jonathan cLeggett and I am here with
Michael knowns and Trisha likeit.
Uh, and we have been discussinga, the film Ofelia.
Uh, do you like listening to ourdulcet tones?
Please subscribe to get newepisodes as soon as they become
available, right and or leave usa review to help our show reach
(23:29):
that larger audience.
And you can also follow imbibecinema on Facebook and, or the
twitters.
I really think that what weneeded to discuss now, um, is,
is, is the script at large theadaptation of the novel by Lisa
Klein.
Um, and, and where it differsfrom the Bard's, uh, original
(23:50):
work where it's similar, uh, andjust the script and all of the
symbolism.
It's reaping its symbolism, uh,and, and everything that we've,
you know, tried to discuss, but,but, but I reigned you in so I
apologize.
So free for all Trish go.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
So I've usually just seen very similar versions of
hamlet.
I mean, yes, you can make itpresent day like Ethan Hawke did
or well just keep getting olderhamlets, right.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
He's a nine p this young girl in Ireland, no
testament to their acting rates.
Not to me.
Clearly.
I'm going to be dead tomorrow.
Oh, I thought I was looking atthem cause your excursion is
mine.
Yeah, sorry.
Wow.
We really got the different take.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Obviously the main story that everyone sees is a,
is a good story.
It's a great story.
Uh, however, uh, as a manyShakespeare nerds pointed out is
, um, uh, there are so many nodsor hints in the text to the fact
that Ophelia is pregnant and is,or she is.
Yeah.
And there are just so many thatlike if you just in the first,
(25:04):
uh, or early on in the, in theshow or the film, if you would,
uh, just had her hold herstomach for a second, all of a
sudden, all of those hints wouldprobably become very noticed by
the audience.
Just Wen with a visual cue.
All those little jokes about,uh, conceiving[inaudible] will
suddenly be like, oh, wait aminute.
(25:25):
And in her, um, drowningsequence when she, uh, is
drowning, they talk about thecloud, they talk about the
flowers that she's holding andone of them, uh, being, uh, dead
man's fingers, uh, and, uh, theyare called Edmond's fingers.
They look more like, um, Phallice I would say members male.
(25:49):
Uh, yeah, like, yeah, they looklike penises and so can say that
on the podcast.
But also, uh, the, she hasDaisy's unhappy love as a, his
representative.
So unhappy, love and all that.
But more importantly, uh, if weget to affiliate speech about
flowers.
So I'm just going to jump inhere.
(26:09):
Okay.
So we got barred versus a bookor in this case film[inaudible]
for you in columbines.
Okay.
And those are directed toGertrude.
Those are symbols of adultery.
So she's calling out the factthat she knows you are.
Whoa.
Yay.
Oh, show.
Exactly.
Clark, go ahead.
There's room for you.
And here's something for me.
(26:29):
Yeah.
This is the most important.
Flour in my mind.
Ru symbolizes regret.
And she's directing this towardClaudius and she's saying, you
know, I hear some kill yourbrother.
You pretty much, you're going toregret all the zones.
Uh, and some for me, it's theonly thing that she says about
herself is she has a lot ofregret.
You would think, however ru isalso used, uh, as a poison, uh,
(26:53):
to help induce miscarriages atthat time.
So, uh, it could, if you tooktoo much, it could kill you, but
it's not something that youwould use to kill yourself.
It's a terrible way to die.
Most people would use hemlock ornightshade, something like that.
So the fact that she'smentioning Rue, which is
specifically something you woulduse to kill off an unborn child.
And some for me, there's thatdouble meaning.
(27:15):
So it's another way of going.
Look, I'm pregnant eyes.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
She immediately follows it with saying, we may
call it herb of grace.
Oh Sundays.
That's really sad.
Then, uh, especially if sheknows that she's taking it to,
to do that.
Oh you must wear your room withdeference.
Right?
So she's saying, yeah, butyou're wearing yours for a
different reason than mine.
Yeah.
(27:39):
Alright, go ahead.
There's a daisy.
Yeah, daisy as another symbol ofunhappy love.
I would give you some violence,but they all withered when my
father died.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Now this is another one that I think is interesting
is cause a violence are supposedto symbolize faithfulness.
And the fact that you know,maybe the only faithful person,
a loyal person that sheconsidered in court cause layer
t's isn't there at that time isher father.
And so there's nobody that shecan trust.
And the fact that Hamill's theone who killed her father
spoiler.
So the fact that that happened,then we, we've broken a trust
(28:12):
obviously.
Uh, so the fact that she mightfeel all alone and, uh, that
there's no one she can trust,
Speaker 1 (28:18):
they took it almost completely aligned for line in
this film.
There, there was some movement,if you will, because of the
undertones that they were tryingto set.
Whether this is the novel itselfor the adaptation I'm judging,
it's kind of a little bit ofboth as well as just Claire's
directing, getting the subtextof all of the conversations.
(28:43):
And it was one of the thingsthat was absolutely beautiful to
watch, uh, between hamlet andOphelia is when they're
communicating with each other.
We've seen scenes where he jokesabout her being a fish, cause
she's in, you know, in the pondalone.
Uh, you know, now she's clothed,but at the same time he's like,
hey, come on, come on a, youknow, up on the shore.
(29:06):
And, uh, and you know, he talksabout her being efficient.
Then later he literally goes upto Polonius in like, Yo, he's,
she, he's trying to sell me afish.
And there's a whole speech inthe actual play of hamlet where,
where Polonius is going.
Like, I am not a fishmonger, youknow, but to us it makes more
sense because we saw a scenethat is not in the play of her
(29:28):
being in this water.
And so there's all these, thesebeautiful things where, where
they take the, the, the richtext of the Bard, but they never
actually go full hamlet.
They don't go full Shakespeare.
They don't use all the texts, uh, except in the, in the, the,
uh, the composer and the score.
But at the same time, they lacein all these beautiful elements
(29:50):
that if you know the, the textright here, you're able to, if
you're in,
Speaker 3 (29:54):
you're a nerd and you're geeking out about it.
And I know, I know during thebreak I talked about how I
compare this in a way to, uh,what lies beneath, uh, which is
a film that God was, it's ameccas that did that and it was
an homage to Hitchcock.
So if you love Hitchcock movies,you're going, oh my God, oh
wait, that's, that's a fromnotorious and that's, that's
from a rear window.
(30:14):
And that's, that's from a, youknow, uh, vertigo and right.
There's a, there's a little bitof everything laced in and in
this, there are not only, uh,nods to the text without being
overt that if you know it,you're like, oh, I get where
you're going.
Or, uh, if, you know,Shakespeare, uh, in general, he
loves to do the whole like, oh,you dead.
(30:35):
No, I know dead.
Oh wait, we're all really deadkind of thing.
And he loves to play withpoison.
It's, it's done in other, uh, uh, place.
So I, I love that there is,there is a love of Shakespeare
and that we've just broadenedour horizons a bit and we've
gone a little out of the box onthat.
And then one of the things Ilove is they assigned Claudia's
the lines that are, hey, can Isum this all up in one line?
(30:57):
And that's true.
And, uh, so after the swordfight in the courtyard, uh,
between hamlet and Claudius,there is, uh, uh, this great
line.
Claudia's has as he's, you know,defeated a hamlet.
He says, you debate what to donext and meanwhile you do next
to nothing.
And I'm like, Yep, that's theplay.
That's it.
(31:18):
Yeah.
You just,
Speaker 1 (31:18):
you do make what to do the entire time that the play
is going on, but you don'tactually do anything.
Right.
And it's like, that's, Claudiusis burn.
You waited five hours to killme.
Lazy millennial.
I don't know what else.
Well, no, I don't know what thatwe just gen x did.
We did.
And I'm so sorry because I wasborn with that teen 80
Speaker 3 (31:44):
young ins.
All right, so another line thatClaudius has is he says a, the
better man does not always win.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yes.
And that's true.
Those of you who do know ahamlet and even those who, who
don't, the, the way that thiskind of just interweaves scenes
that are offstage really for theplay itself, by interweaving
them in, by how they'redesigned.
You could actively, and I did, Iactively watched this film and
(32:14):
went, yeah, I, I buy that.
This is all just stuff thatcouldn't go into the five hour
play know, making this an eighthour play, you know, would,
would, would be a way of gettingall of this incorporated and it
all makes sense.
Well written to that
Speaker 3 (32:31):
point of view, right?
Uh,[inaudible] has a differentpoint of view what's going on in
Ophelia and it's, it's like allthose, uh, uh, one of the, one
of the stories I see types ofstories I really love is when
you take a different point ofview on something that everybody
kind of accepts as normal.
So if you are hearing the wickedstepmother's point of view
instead of Cinderella, all of asudden it's like, oh, this is
the same story.
(32:51):
This is a completely differentstory.
Yeah.
Maleficent would be a veryrecent example.
Uh, so now symbolism is where Iget all super gaped out.
I'll hit two to three big thingsthat I liked.
One, obviously flowers, not justthe symbolism behind the meaning
of every flower, but the factthat the all the other ladies in
(33:12):
waiting, they all have jewelsand she has flowers and it's a
status thing.
The flowers kind of end up beingused all over the place, whether
they're in Gertrude's bath orthey're being used to make, uh,
remedies or poisons by thehealer.
Uh, and then there are two bigthings, one of one central.
(33:34):
I think if you're going to gowith the biggest amount of
symbolism or foreshadowing in,uh, in this film, it's gotta be
around knowledge and they hitknowledge so many different
ways.
We start with Philios first timein court.
Uh, they've, they're talkingabout Adam and eve and, uh, and
uh, cause, uh, Ham was going tocollege, right?
And so they're, they're talkingabout a, the, the sin of
(33:55):
knowledge and a Ophelia pipes upand says the, I think she thinks
the apple is quite innocent inthe whole affair.
Uh, and I, I love that.
Uh, and then it's used again.
There's a, there's a snake whenshe is, uh, going to the witch
slash healer and the murderer ofthe king is leaving.
(34:15):
She is hiding and she doesn'tsee who it is, but she sees the
murderer leave.
And as they're crossing in frontof her, there's a black snake
that crosses in front of herfeet.
I think knowledge pretty muchrepresents danger, uh, because
we see it over and over againwith the Adam and Eve story with
Ophelia not permitted to read.
And yet she, uh, layer cheeseteaches her anyway and uh, how
(34:38):
she witnesses Gertrude andClaudia skating it on and the
burden of that knowledge that ahamlet school takes him away
from her.
And that in turn kind of putstheir love in danger.
If you were to go there, thewitches, a knowledge of poison
and remedy causes a whole bunchof issues.
I, hamlet refers to a sharppoint within when he's talking
to Claudius about how God says a, a sword to his throat, and he
(35:01):
goes, well, my sharp point lieswithin.
It's like my, my brain is whereI can really hurt you.
My smarts hurt Shrewd Warren'saffiliate not to look, uh, at
the witch's face when she goesthere and she does it anyway.
Uh, that one.
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (35:17):
that's, that's, that's just dollars.
Like go, go, go get me some moretonic.
But, but definitely don't lookat the twin me.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Right.
So madness.
Let's talk madness.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
This is one of those areas where, especially when it
comes to affiliate and, and thetext of the Bard, there so many
interpretations that can happen.
Right?
You can have it where, uh, sheis mad.
She isn't mad.
She's mad because she's withchild.
She's mad just cause it's aTuesday.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Yeah.
And there's a, the foils, uh,thought that layer tease is a
foil for hamlet, right.
Because Hamlet's father ismurdered and how he seeks to, uh
, um, come to closure and then alayer[inaudible] same thing
happens in how he approaches it.
But, uh, the madness parallelis, is really between hamlet and
Ophelia.
(36:10):
Does hamlet pretend to go mad sothat he can figure everything
out and take his time?
Uh, or, uh, does he really gomad?
And it's, it's part of why he'sstalling is he's just lost his
mind.
Yeah.
Uh, and Ophelia, did she go madbecause the man that she loved
when, you know, kind ofportrayed her, killed her
(36:31):
father, and, uh, she's, uh, gotnowhere to go.
She's pregnant.
All kinds of craziness.
No Pun intended.
Or does she fake madness becauseshe sees what hamlet did.
He's mad, I'll go mad.
And that way I can get awaywith, you know, maybe nobody
knowing.
Yeah.
And I'm breaking
Speaker 1 (36:48):
that specifically is one of the things that I found
so rich of a, about this film.
Neither of them has gone mad.
They're using again, like I hadmentioned previously, those
scenes that we don't see inhamlet, the play to communicate
(37:08):
with each other in a way thatthey say things that the other
understands to, to be, you know,rich bonus subtext.
But at the same time, we nowbeing the audience are able to
go, oh, okay.
They're communicating in a senseof code in the play itself.
And in this film, there is ascene where a Claudius, uh, and
(37:32):
Polonius use Ophelia as bait totry to understand is hamlet
actually crazy or you know, isit a ruse?
And, and they did a very goodjob of having this subtext.
They were whispering to eachother yeah.
Under their breath, what, youknow, the, the actual text as
(37:53):
opposed to those moments whenthey would then yell out the
subtext that makes them seemcrazy.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Well, Ophelia is such an amazing character.
She says, just strong character.
And I think people kind of getgiddy about the mad scene.
They're like, well, you got togo mad.
And that becomes the focus.
Or maybe it's the focus, uh, forall kinds of reasons.
But I think one of thestrongest, one of the best, most
challenging scenes is this scenewhere Ophelia has to be, uh, in
front of the man she loves andpretty much be tried to ask, try
(38:20):
to ask him like, what's going onwithout coming across the fact
that she am totally breaking.
I'm draining you right now byhaving your listen and there's
so much going on.
The scene is usually sotraumatic to watch because it's
heartbreaking and yet a in thisI love madness is their secret
code.
I, I, we, we think, uh, havingseen it, I was like, I wish, you
(38:41):
know, uh, we'd seen more of itbeing a secret code that's
yelled out loud where we're, theaudience can be like, Oh I know
what you mean.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
That one is trying to pass a lot of information.
She is imparting the knowledgethat Claudius killed Hamlet's
father.
She has proof.
She just got that proof.
Uh, and, and, and so she'shaving to tell him that dude,
your uncle is kind of in a holeand killed your father.
(39:09):
Uh, I have all the proof.
And so there, like I said, thereis a lot of information that has
to get passed between the two ofthem.
And I, I might have to take athird pass at it.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
No, I want to see it again.
Like, cause that was one of thethings that I was like, Oh, I
love that madness is a secretcode and that it's not just in
that scene.
It's in the, the, when theplayers come to do the play to,
you know, catch the conscienceof the king.
Right.
So that they do that, uh, andthere, and then it's not limited
to just hamlets official madnessscenes, but uh, affiliates as
(39:38):
well as the fact that when shegoes mad and, uh, in front of
Claudius and Gertrude andlayered, Jeez.
Uh, with the flowers and a, shepretends to go mad in front of
them to escape in this version.
When she does this, she'shinting to her ratio in code the
whole time.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Yeah.
Dig me up.
I'm going to be dead.
Yeah.
Not so much code that, you know,please dig me up.
Dig me up.
Actually tonight.
Can you make sure before I amcold, before I am caught 10
nights.
You get me, I'm not nudge wink.
Yeah.
This is really important.
Got It.
Two at a time.
Yeah, no, fuck me on this.
(40:15):
Yeah.
But, but again, I also like thatnow granted it, it's a nod to a
completely nother ShakespeareShakespearian play.
There is the, the pretty much,uh, Juliet, Ian, you know, uh,
ruse where, where she takes apoison that mimics death but
(40:37):
mocks it well, and they boththink the other one's dead.
Just like Romeo and Juliet.
Only hamlet has this opportunityto walk away and can't Yup.
Chooses not to, I choose to say,can't teach.
He chooses not to.
And that in, in my, uh, in myview was the moment where I'm
(40:57):
like this whole vengeance.
I mean, that's the poison.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, and, but he can't, he can't,he's already taken it.
He can't walk away from it.
And when she says, I think shejust says goodbye to my love.
Yeah.
Like that's, that's her.
I tried, I'm leaving goodbye.
And then her departure from themadness.
(41:19):
Yeah.
And so to talk about the, again,differences between the Bard and
, and the movie that Gertrude,yes.
Yes.
Actually the one who slaysClaudius.
Oh yeah.
Where in the play we're all at,you know, o o Hamlet, you know,
after taking the poison to thearm, realizes what's going on,
(41:39):
the queen drinks a poison andthen all of a sudden him in a,
you know, finally violent rage.
He goes, Oh, I know I've spentfive acts kind of just dicking
around here, but now I'm finallygoing to become a man of action.
No, I like the fact thatthroughout this hamlet still is
not the man of action.
He's just jousting or jousting.
(42:00):
He's, he's, he's doing combatwith layer tees because he's
been challenged to call.
Yeah, he's been challenged andhe's got an extra thing.
But that Gertrude is actuallythe one who's like, oh my
fucking Christ you, you slayedmy husband.
You, you killed my son.
Fuck this.
You're done.
And then afterwards she's like,yeah, there's just nothing left.
And then drinks poison.
(42:21):
Right.
And then when you see like thelayout, if you were to come upon
the scene later.
Yes, exactly.
CSI people that show up.
If you're the Norwegians comingto this and the mass murder and
you're like, oh, well it'sHamlin sword in Claudia.
So obviously he killed[inaudible].
He's the one who did it andthey're the ones who perpetuate
this story.
She must've drank poisoned by me.
Like they could draw their ownconclusions.
(42:43):
Hence where the story, the, the,the play story comes from.
And the reason that Opheliastory, it's like you think you
know my story, but you don'tactually know my story.
Her opening line.
And it was high time that Ishould tell you my story myself.
This is right after, you know,she sinks, you know, into the,
into the water and you know, thetitle is revealed.
(43:04):
I mean, I was hooked between themusic, between, you know, the
script, the visuals, everything.
I was like, OK, yeah, I'm, I,you got me.
What I loved about this momentwas I was like, you know, we
always, to me, I always look athamlet as, Oh yeah, hamlet is,
you know, the Shakespearian tale.
What I loved about thisintroduction was this happened
(43:27):
and Shakespeare did hisinterpretation of it.
But that's not what happened.
Yeah.
I'm going to tell you whatreally happened because she even
refers to it as myth.
Yes.
Specifically because her issueis being beaten to a pulp in the
background.
Like we, we don't have reallyanyone left alive, uh, at the
end of that movie to tell anystory other than what, as Trisha
(43:52):
pointed out, a CSI person wouldbe like, yeah, this is how it
went down.
And that's the story that theShakespeare writes.
You know, how many versions ofhamlet have I seen?
Two too many, maybe, maybe.
But I've never gottenemotionally attached to ratio.
He's always been like, oh,you're just with the band.
He's just that guy that hadtalks to on occasions so the
(44:12):
audience can hear what Ann wasthinking.
He's just the guy that's like,well, is he more than just, you
know, just, I mean, really,there's, there's not much to her
ratio that I've seen portrayedbefore.
He's always been referred to asthis true friend.
And I was like, yeah, okay.
And here in this film, he is,he's everybody's
Speaker 3 (44:32):
true friend.
He's a brave, loyal, uh, amazingguy that, uh, both Ophelia and
hamlet lean on to, uh, help themget through it.
And Oh my God, I love the waythey portray him and I love the
way that layer cheeses portrayedin this film as well.
Then he, you have thatrelationship between brother and
sister.
Uh, and it's simple.
It just in using him, teachingher to read, you've created this
(44:55):
whole relationship that isreally touching.
So in the band instead of like agroupie or like a backup singer,
he's like the drummer.
He's like keeping beat.
Yeah.
He's Ringo.
Two more things that I'd like tosay.
One, I find it interesting, the,uh, the use of fathers in the
film, uh, the fact that we get,uh, the king alive for more than
(45:16):
any other version.
Yeah.
Actually, the second time this,the one time I paused it, I was
like, wait a minute, you justdied and it's what?
It's over a half hour into themovie.
And I was like, wow.
Right.
But he's like window dressingand Polonius they hit on when a
Polonius is like, you know, hisbig, to thine own self be true
speech, they hit on that.
But other than that, he'sbackground.
(45:38):
So the king doesn't get a voicereally at all.
And Polonius is, is, uh, verydownplayed.
So there really is no fatherfigure present actively in
either affilia or Hamlet's lifein the film.
And then the other thing that Ifound interesting, the sisters,
uh, I love the idea of the factthat they're, they're yin and
(46:00):
Yang, that they both been withClaudius and one way, well one
does, but only because he justman, yes.
And the fact that he is, youknow, on the, uh, he is the, the
reason the untimely end to bothof their children.
Uh, and, uh, the, the, the, uh,the one depends on the other.
(46:21):
Uh, and even see like thewitches usually, and what's her,
what's her character name, youknow, and she is usually in, uh,
black or dark colors andGertrude and white.
Yes.
And especially in that lastsequence when, when you see
them.
Uh, yeah.
And that's that beautifulsequence where she sees what
(46:44):
Gertrude's t doing and all of asudden all her, oh my God, my
sister's such an annoyance.
Just drops.
And it's, Oh my God, no, no, no,no, no, no.
She's the older sister and theolder sister and yes, in grade
shrewd mentions that, that, youknow, she had an older sister to
protect her even though I thinkthey're twins.
So like we're talking like elderby like minutes.
(47:05):
They are, they are like nightand day, just like their, their
costuming representative Bri andtheir presentation.
They are at night and day inwhat they value and uh, and uh,
what they, how they react tosituations.
Yes.
Uh, and yet both of them cansay, can't say no to Claudius.
That's the one thing they reallyhave in common.
There's, there's something thatI wanna I want to throw out
(47:26):
there.
We hear in bubs, in a mom, we,we love
Speaker 1 (47:30):
the movies that we're watching.
Hopefully we're lovers.
You know, we're, we're here to,uh, be advocates for the
independent film that we aretalking about.
So I wanted to just read acouple of, um, uh, highlight
reviews of people who trashed tothis.
[inaudible] going to lie.
You think Trisha and I werehaving a quick debate on this
(47:52):
and then she did a quick reviewof, of some of them.
I had actually read some of thereviews, the trashed reviews,
and I'm like, fuck theseassholes.
Well, everybody, you know, itdepends.
You have a bad day and look atit from a different point, but
you're just fucking truly way tosee Shakespeare is the one way
you've always seen this playdone.
Just like the one way star warsis done as the only way it's
(48:13):
going, where it's going to bedone.
I have done repertory theaternow when I did repertory theater
at Illinois Shakespeare Festival, uh, you know, uh, shout out
Illinois shakes.
Uh, I was of course a, you know,third spearmint on left.
Uh, no real, no real parts, so Iwas brilliant as third spearman.
Um, but there were people whowould sit there with the
(48:34):
Riverside or the Arden, uh, youknow, book in their lap and, and
you could actually hear themlike when lines were cut or, or
lines were, were, were, youknow, told a different way.
They'd be like, man, I did itwrong.
Put the book down.
Just wants to fucking show.
All right.
So, um, let's start with, um,Chicago reader.
(48:56):
Um, it says the picture isnowhere near as memorable as
other controversial twists onmisunderstood women of history
and fiction.
Whoa.
What could they give an example?
I was going to say what other, Icould read the full review and
maybe they do go into it, butthat's the highlight.
Okay.
These are, these are relishtomatoes highlights to me that
(49:18):
that person from Chicago reader,God love u Chicago reader, um,
was having a bad day.
That that makes no sense to me.
Never liked hamlet.
That's possible.
But that prejudice there is areally strong female film
outright from start to finish isfrom real views.
There wasn't much to Hamlet'sOphelia and there's not a lot
(49:40):
more to this productions versionof her.
Yeah, I don't think they likehamlet.
I think that's somebody who justdoesn't like the play.
This is from the AustralianFinancial Review.
I don't know why they arereviewing movies.
Fox and hound going to reviewwith Julia Roberts[inaudible]
which I actually just watchedfor the first time, so it's
(50:01):
very, very fresh in my brain.
Then now you know horse andHound[inaudible] say five.
Is there any horses you're film?
Well it took place in space.
The first casualty isShakespeare's richness of
language, which was obviouslyjudged too complicated to be
(50:22):
imposed upon a generationbrought up on social media.
Okay.
I would say that
Speaker 3 (50:27):
person is very full of themselves.
Extremely or you know, just fullof self-like you know, like
yourself a lot or way too muchof a Shakespeare for you know,
and if they're gonna use socialmedia then like that, that that
right there, that statement islike a mental selfie.
They just love talking about howsmart they are.
Yeah.
Okay.
And now I'm going to do my ownplug.
Uh, no fear, Shakespeare, uh,anybody who really wants to get
(50:50):
a lot out of, uh, the text, uh,because at least Elizabethan, uh
, language is not something thatis, this lang is gone.
Nobody knows it.
And so it's one of those thingswhere you get extra stuff out of
the text.
Like there are some things youcan totally follow.
Cause if you read enoughShakespeare, you're gonna follow
it, right?
(51:11):
But then there are things thatare even, uh, you know, slip
past.
But usually it's the filthystuff that you lose out on
because you're not aware of theslang.
Oh, he's, so I would, I wouldvery much recommend it if you
really enjoy filthy stuffbecause Shakespeare's got a lot
of, yeah.
And to me,
Speaker 1 (51:28):
w w what I like about this is right off the bat,
affilia tells you, look, youthink you know this story, but
that's myth.
That's that, that's somebodyelse's interpreter,
Speaker 3 (51:41):
Laurie in language.
That's not what we actuallysaid.
Okay.
Let me tell you what we actuallysaid.
That was that those were my topthree.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Okay.
All right, good.
One.
One thing that we, we really doappreciate is our listeners and
thank you for guys for choosingthis podcast and supporting
specifically independent films.
As you can see, we are very bigadvocates of independent films,
you know, so, uh, keep your earout for our next episode, uh,
which we will be talking about.
Hearts beat loud, starting NickOfferman and Kiersey Clemons.
(52:11):
The drowning of Philia, uh, canbe found on our website, uh,
along with a couple a beautifulshots of it.
It is a very beautiful, uh,drink.
This, um, goes down nice andeasy, comes back with a
vengeance, uh, to check out ourshow notes, uh, or drop us a
note, uh, visit us on, uh,imbibe cinema.com.
(52:34):
And once again, I am Jonathan cleg and thanks for imbibing with
us.
Cheers.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
[inaudible] make change.
[inaudible]
Speaker 3 (52:55):
this is me.
Woe is me.
They have seen what I've seen.
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