#37 IMPACT MASTER JACK SIRO

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Ever wondered how to navigate toxic work environments while maintaining a thriving career in tech? Join us as we unlock the powerful insights from Jaxiro, a self-taught mobile app developer at Britsam, who transitioned from media to IT. Jaxiro's journey offers a wealth of knowledge on avoiding toxic work settings, excelling in mobile app development using Flutter, and balancing work-life demands effectively. This episode promises to equip you with strategies to manage your career while safeguarding your mental health.

Discover the tell-tale signs of toxic workplaces and their profound impact on mental well-being. We dissect poor communication, strained employer relations, and unfair work terms, drawing a clear line between hard work and detrimental overworking. Practical advice on setting boundaries and recognizing toxic elements in your work environment will empower you to foster a healthier, more productive work atmosphere. Our conversations span personal stories and expert insights, providing a comprehensive understanding of maintaining mental health at work.

We also spotlight the intricacies of remote work policies and the pivotal role of HR in shaping employee experiences. Featuring perspectives from Christine at Africa Stalking, we unravel the execution of workplace policies and their potential to either support or hinder employee wellness. Concluding with exciting updates on upcoming tech events in Nairobi, this episode is a treasure trove for anyone in the tech community seeking to thrive amidst challenges. Mark your calendars for the next meetup and join the movement towards making Africa a tech innovation hub.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:06):
All right, welcome.
Welcome to our guests and thosejoining us for our meetup this
evening for the Nairobicommunity.
The theme welcome, welcome toour guests and those joining us

(00:30):
for our meetup this evening forthe Nairobi community.
The theme All right, so welcome, we will get started.

(00:58):
Our theme this evening is toxicwork environments, like we are
all familiar with, and with uswe have a guest, so what we will
do is we will do anintroduction and we'll have the
guest introduce himself.
From there we can get theconversation started.
Remember, if you have anythingyou'd like to chime in or ask
all through, get it noted and wewill get to the conversation,

(01:22):
because we are all chiming in tothe topic.
All right, awesome.
So as we get started, we canintroduce ourselves.

Speaker 4 (01:33):
So hi, I'm Jeswat Mwangi Community Lead Africa
Stalk in Nairobi.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, All right, I will introduce myself.
Then our guest will finally doit, as he tells us more about
himself.
So my name is Sylvia Tabet,from Africa's Talking in the
Developer Relations team.

Speaker 5 (01:55):
Hi everyone.
My name is Jaxiro.
I'm a mobile app developer atBritsam, mobile app developer at
Britsam, and today I'm here.
We talk about the hot topic oftoxic work environments.
I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Awesome, awesome.
Glad you're here, jack, welcome.
So tell us more.
You've said you're a mobiledeveloper.
Yes, tell us more about that.
Is this where you're a mobiledeveloper?
Yes, tell us more about that.
Is this where you started?
Is this your first job?
Is that what you wanted to bewhen you were a child?
Or you wanted to be a doctor?

Speaker 5 (02:36):
Many years back, I was in campus.
I was doing a course that willmake me to be a journalist and,
fortunately, in my second year,I started to see things
different.
I dropped out and I came toNairobi and I enrolled in a

(03:01):
diploma course in a college herecalled KTTC.
Then I started to do a diplomain ICT, but I'd actually dropped
out doing a bachelor's degreein communication and media.
So I still have the attributesof a journalist in me, but at

(03:29):
the moment, I'm into softwaredevelopment.
I've been freelancing, andduring my time that I was
freelancing, I was mostly doingweb development-related work,
mostly working with things to dowith PHP, where I worked with

(03:51):
things like WordPress, joomla,and then, towards 2019, I had
already started to work with Istarted to learn Android.
So in the process of learningAndroid, I was also learning

(04:11):
something to do with C Sharp.
So these are some things that Iwas just learning on the side.
Actually, right now, what I'mdoing all of it has been more of
a self-taught.
What I'm doing all of it, it'sbeen more of a self-taught,
though right now I do helppeople to also upscale
themselves, but most of what I'mdoing right now it's mostly

(04:34):
self-taught.
So I worked as a desktop appdeveloper using C Sharp and then
, as we got along, google camewith Flutter and I saw Flutter
could actually solve my problems, because now it's looking into
mobile app development.
So having to learn Android andat the same time you go, you
learn Objective C for iOS, itbecame like a tall order.

(05:00):
So that's where I got intoFlutter and it's now two years
I've been working actively withFlutter and I've been mostly
working as a mobile appdeveloper, though there are
other times where I actuallytook a role of a full stack,

(05:25):
because now sometimes whenyou're working in a team, if
somebody has too many tasks andhe can't deliver on a certain
task, probably you might have tostep in.
So sometimes I would step infrom my role as a mobile app
developer and do something to dowith full stack, where I worked

(05:49):
with Laravel, and right now, ifyou ask me, I would say I'm
sort of a multi-stack developer,but because of avoiding to get
in a toxic work environment, Iwould prefer to actually go with

(06:13):
one bullet so that it's easierto manage.
So in my current place of work,my role is that of a mobile app
developer using Flutter, butwhen the backend guys, they are
delidaling or they are not doinga good job, I will actually

(06:33):
knock.
So that is me up to there.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
Interesting, Very interesting journey you've had
so far.
If I may ask you transitionedfrom media and communications to
the IT field.
What drew you to IT?
Or did you start working inmedia and comms and realize let
me try something else.

Speaker 5 (06:56):
Well, I would say it all started from KCS.
You see, back then they werevery.
There were very tight standardsfor you to actually join a
computer science or any coursethat is related to being a

(07:17):
software engineer.
And I didn't pass well inphysics.
So I asked my dad if I could dobridging so that I actually fit
to go to do computer science,because when I was in high
school I really wanted to dosomething to do with anything
that was going to make me sit infront of a computer.
So, dad, he refused, becausenow I had not passed well, I

(07:47):
could not actually get into thegovernment sponsored program, so
I had to work with theself-sponsored one.
So we looked at the universitywhich was near home, that was
Kisii University.
By then it was still KisiiUniversity College and the
course that actually fit with myqualifications by then it

(08:14):
happened to be communication andmedia.
So that is how I got there.
But I used to.
I never.
After I realized we were doingless practical lessons, I
started to lose the zeal.
There's only one time when weactually went to a real studio
and there was a time again wecame to the standard offices

(08:40):
here in Nairobi, but still itwas just like a drop in the
ocean.
It was just like a drop in theocean.
It wasn't like it was taking methe way I wanted.
So I used to find myselfsometimes, when I'm free, in the
computer lab and we used tohave computer lab and also the

(09:01):
libraries they used to have to.
They had a computer section.
So if I was not in the computerlab the main computer lab then
I was in the small computersection that is in the library
and I used to see when I go tothe computer lab I used to go

(09:21):
sometimes I would find what iswritten because computer lab was
now like the classes for thecomputer lab.
I used to go.
Sometimes I would find what iswritten because computer lab was
now like the classes for thecomputer science students.
I used to see a bit of codingwritten on the board.
Mostly I used to see it waswhen I tried to follow up.
Sometimes when I actually foundthem, they are still there.

(09:41):
I used to see what they were.
They were running this programcalled NetBeans and they were
doing Java.
So it used to fascinate me whenI see them run and you see,
actually an application.
So I liked it.
I actually found myselfwondering how I could also get

(10:09):
my hands on that, Because Ididn't have a laptop or I didn't
have a computer that I coulduse on my own.
I only had those ones.
So that is how I started togain that.
But as we, by the time I wascoming to defer my my cause

(10:29):
there, I had loose at lost focusin in the course that I was
doing and I was just wonderinghow I could actually get myself
to do something related withcomputer.
So, actually framed a reason.
I told my dad that I've beensuspended because I cannot

(10:50):
continue with this course.
I've not done two exams andthat is because you did not pay
fees on time.
So I've been told that I gorelax.
When I'm able to clear my pastbalance, I can pick up from
there.
So it was a valid reason.

(11:12):
And as we went along, an uncleof mine helped me to get an
admission in a college here inGigiri, called KTTC, to do
diploma in ICT, called KTTC todo diploma in ICT.
Then, from there I started tofeel now my life was now moving
in the right direction, becausenow that I was not in the

(11:33):
university, I was spending timein the cyber cave trying to
build HTML, because now I wasseeing there was W3 schools.
I was seeing it back in theuniversity, I was seeing it.
It was being written somewhereoh, the lesson for today.
This is where you will get itand you see the address W3

(11:56):
schools.
So I continued to learn fromthere.
Actually, by the time I wasjoining this other college
Actually, by the time I wasjoining this other college where
I was as a first year, itfascinated one of my lecturers
and he went and talked to thosewho are outgoing Mostly they

(12:19):
were the third years because thecourse was three years and they
started to come to me becausethey thought I could help them
with their projects.
So by the time I was finishingmy first year, I was already
doing a project for people whoare outgoing and it was a good
way for me to make money.

(12:40):
In fact, by the time I was nowin my final year me, In fact, by
the time I was now in my finalyear.
Now, the rest of my classmatesthey were coming to me to do for
them their projects.
So I was also charging them.
It's just that sometimes youwould also have to give them
discount because they are yourclassmates.

(13:00):
But yeah, that is how Iactually started into
freelancing.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
Interesting.
It seems that it started as apassion long ago, so this
passion grew and when you hadthe chance you took it.
And they say there's usuallythis danger with turning your
passion into your source ofincome right, because in some
way you might lose the interest,because now it's work and it's
become very serious.
So now that yours is your honorat the moment, since you are a

(13:30):
mobile developer, how many yearshave you been working or how is
your work experience so far?

Speaker 5 (13:39):
when I started I'd say from the time I graduated,
around 2017, I was just doingfreelancing until around 2019.
That is now when I started toget employed and now work under

(14:02):
somebody or work under certaincontract.
So my experience I would giveit around five years and
something on top of it,depending on the field.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
Right.
Five years plus.
That's quite some time you havefreelanced, meaning you have
been with multiple employers.
You had multiple employers.

Speaker 5 (14:26):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yes, interesting.
So that is directly in theme towhat we have today, which is
toxic work environments.
Since now you seem to havequite the experience, five years
plus, and quite a number ofemployers, this will be
something you can easily speakabout.
Yeah, something you can easilyspeak about.

Speaker 4 (14:45):
Yeah, so a quick one before we get into.
If you're not behind yourlaptop, what's your hobby?

Speaker 5 (14:53):
If I'm not behind my laptop, I'll be on my bike,
cycling.
Even.
I've cycled to this place and Iwill still cycle from here back
to my house, and at times Ialso run.

(15:23):
I have participated in variousmarathon races and looking
forward to participate in somethat are scheduled this year and
other times.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Interesting, interesting An athlete eh, yes.
That's quite the path, it seemsyou have very high discipline
levels.

Speaker 4 (15:38):
So in your five-year journey, five years plus journey
, in your five-year journey,five years plus journey.
So how can you define what's?

Speaker 5 (15:51):
toxic work environment.
Toxic work environment it willcome down to.
I will just say I can summarizeit to two words mental health.
So if you are working somewhereor you are working for a
project, if it is affecting you,your mental health in a

(16:13):
negative way, then definitelythat is a toxic work environment
.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
Mental health is quite a broad term and it's
something that everyone shouldtake very seriously because it's
an essential part of who youare.
If your mental is not healthy,you will not be able to function
.
So that's a very good pointthat you bring across.
In the five years plus, haveyou been in an environment that
you don't need to state it, buthave you been in an environment

(16:41):
where you felt was a toxic workenvironment?

Speaker 5 (16:44):
Very many.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Very many.
Oh wow, what were the telltalesigns?
What was happening here andthere that made you realize, ah,
this place is not healthy formy well-being.

Speaker 5 (17:01):
In some of the places that I've worked that were
toxic.
I realized that communicationwas one thing that was broken
and then another thing wasemployer relations.
It was also crooked, like itwasn't something that was being

(17:23):
taken care of.
Then another thing that I alsosaw in those environments that I
worked in is that there wereunfair terms.
Basically, when you look at ifsomebody you are working with is

(17:43):
doing less tasks compared toyou and they are carrying
smaller responsibilities andprobably you even find this
person is, if you happen to findout that the person that you

(18:04):
are trying to judge or tocompare yourself with is earning
more than you compared to you,who is doing a lot organization
to actually come and find outsomething, then that one is a

(18:47):
toxic work environment.
Then also, if you find when youare trying to have your
personal time but you arecompelled to do something that
is work related, definitely thatwill translate into a toxic
work environment.
You are compelled to dosomething that is work-related,

(19:09):
definitely that would translateinto a toxic work environment
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
So what I'm getting is a lot of.
If there's barriers in thecommunication and if there's a
crossing of boundaries of yourpersonal boundaries, that's what
brings out a toxic nature, orthose are the telltale signs
that this place might actuallybe toxic.
Anyone who might have anaddition, what are your telltale

(19:31):
signs for toxic environments?

Speaker 4 (20:02):
So you tell us your name, then tell us how you can
define it.

Speaker 5 (20:06):
Thank, you I would say there is something called

(21:17):
work-life balance.
So if you do not have a properwork-life balance, then it will
be hard for you to actuallydefine that thin line that is in
between there.
Work-life balance is wherebyyou are able to allocate time
that you are going to do workand another time that you are

(21:39):
allocating that is not workrelated.
For example, if you have afamily, the time that you will
spend with your family or thetime that you will spend on your
own, because personal time isalso very important.
Unfortunately, if we find thatyour personal time happens to be

(22:00):
the time that you are gettingin between your blankets, then
probably it will be a good signthat your work-life balance is
not very good.
So if you have to carry yourwork home, then it has to be
your own initiative thatprobably.
I've decided to carry my workhome and proceed there, because

(22:22):
I know tomorrow I need to do thetime that I'm actually saving I
will use it for something else.
Probably you are doing a sideproject.
So now you have decided let mejust finish these tasks so that
I can get time to go do my sideproject.

(22:43):
That is how you should be ableto do it.
But if, during the time, forexample, that is not working
hours, if your boss is trying tocontact you that time so that
you do something, if your bossis trying to contact you at that
time so that you do somethingand he or she wants that thing
to be done during that time,then now that is where now

(23:06):
somebody is intruding into yourtime.
Basically, if I see an emailduring a time that is not
working hours, I will just saywell received or noted.
Or if I see it in the charts, Iwill.
I will just say well receivedor noted, or if I see it in the
charts, I will.
I will.
I will note it down, but I willonly start to act upon it when

(23:27):
it is now working hours.
So that is how I would havebeen operating.
So for you to get a distinctionbetween hard work and the
work-life balance is that hardwork should be in such a way
that you are using the sameresources that others have been

(23:50):
allocated.
For example, the resource herenow is 8 to 5 pm daily.
That is the time that everyoneis allocated to 5pm daily.
That is the time that everyoneis allocated to do their work,
also working.
For example, you are workingfrom the office and you are
using those resources that arethere.
So if you can be able to usethose resources the way they are

(24:11):
and actually overachieveOverachieving could be in form
of you actually finishing yourtasks in good time Then that
will be hard work.
For example, you look at whenlet's compare it with sales In
sales, for example, if somebodyis able to sell 500 units in a

(24:35):
week, that is an averagesalesperson is able to sell 500
units in a week, but is anaverage salesperson is able to
sell 500 units in a week, butthere's another person during
that week he or she has solddouble that.
Then the other person ishardworking.
So if we translate it to in ourindustry of IT or software

(24:55):
development, where we areactually providing a service, we
just look at it in terms ofhours, the hours that you put in
and the amount of work that youare able to do during that time
.
It's not about you being ableto do.
If you are doing outside theworking hours, then now it moves
from being hard work.

(25:16):
You become now like aworkaholic, somebody who is just
like an addict, alcoholic, butnow in terms of work, it is
still going to affect youmentally and it will push you to
that kind of a toxic workenvironment, and in this case,

(25:39):
it is you who has subjectedyourself into it.
Yeah, isha.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Just before you ask for those who are following
along virtually.
The question was because it wasnot said on the microphone.
The question was that if youcarry your work home, is that a
toxic work environment?
And where do we draw the lines?
Because the older generationwould say you're being lazy or,
yeah, you're not working hardenough.

(26:08):
So what's the distinctionbetween hard work and a toxic
work environment, which he hasclearly outlined?
Proper work-life balance isvery important.
So for the next question we'lluse this mic so a follow-up

(26:36):
question on that.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
Um, you know how competitive getting a job is,
especially when you are entrylevel or internship or you just
finished school.
So sometimes you're told tosettle for whatever you get, and
maybe what whatever you'vegotten requires you to put in a
lot of hard work for you tostand out from the rest.

(27:00):
So is there a phase in lifewhere you'll you have to
persevere long working hours foryou to stand out, or don't just
settle for anything that'shealthy for you?
And also, being in a workenvironment where your progress

(27:23):
is not recognized or yourachievements are not recognized,
maybe five years after workyou've never gotten a promotion
or salary increment.
Does that count as?

Speaker 5 (27:37):
a toxic work environment.
Okay, I will start with thefirst one where you've actually
talked about if you are working.
If I got, can you remind me thefirst question?

Speaker 2 (27:57):
Is there a period where you need to persevere,
especially if you're startingout?
Because jobs are competitive,internships are competitive?
Is there a perseverance trialperiod that you need to work
through?

Speaker 5 (28:10):
well, well, I will, I will.
I will bring it that phase towhen you are just fresh from
campus or fresh from thebootcamp and you are trying to
create your digital footprint.
So during that time you willprobably come to events like
these ones.
Probably you will go tohackathons, probably you will be

(28:35):
doing sprints that are probablyopen source, or you'll come,
you'll contribute to communitywork.
So during that time you'll betrying to perfect your skills
and do a lot of things.
So, yes, you will need to dothat and uh, so that, uh, when a
time will come, and so that atime will come, if somebody asks

(28:58):
you what have you done, or canyou show me your GitHub profile,
you'll be able to show them andthen they will see.
They will just be able to see,sort of like what you've been
working on.
They will not necessarily gointo details, but they will be
able to see that.
So it's a good thing that youyou can, you can give yourself

(29:22):
to work on, because I believewhen somebody is probably in
campus, either you are in campusor you are in a boot camp or
you are in a these institutionsthat are training people to
become software developers whoare ready for the market.
For example, like Moringa, wehave Rolex, we have Akira Cheeks

(29:45):
, all those.
When you are there, you areexpected that you need to
persevere.
So there is no shortcut to that.
You have to persevere and worklonger hours because now you
will need to learn more and alsodo more.

(30:08):
It does not necessarilytranslate to money.
It won't translate to money,but rather it will translate
into your knowledge, your, yourknowledge, knowledge base.
So, yes, you need to do thatand, uh, when you get a job.
Still, I think you also need tolearn, like, uh, where I am

(30:30):
right now.
Uh, we have heard of I, I was,I'm, I'm forced to learn a few
things that are provided onMicrosoft, azure and also Oracle
, because those are the thingsthat we are using there and we
are told these products theyhave been paid for millions of

(30:52):
money, so you cannot come withyour own ideas.
You say no, I've been workingwith GitHub or GitLab or I've
been working with MongoDB.
They tell you no, here we havea partnership with these people
and we have this subscriptiongoes for this.

(31:13):
So you use this product.
So it forces you to create yourown time, to go learn those
things so that now, when itcomes to time for working you,
you will be able to execute yourwork smoothly.
So you will have to topersevere at some point, but but
it doesn't end.
Sometimes it still comes back,like right now, if you move to a

(31:38):
new job, be prepared.
There is a phase that where youhave to spend longer working
hours so that you get up tospeed with whatever is down
there.
So then another question heasked is you've worked for like
five years and you're notgetting a promotion, you're not

(32:00):
getting a salary increment.
So if that translates to atoxic work environment the
condition whereby you find youare not, there are things that

(32:26):
are happening to the peoplearound you.
Probably there are people whojoined and they have been moving
up the ranks.
You are still there.
Nothing is changing on yourside.
Always say no change on litmuspaper.
Well, that could look like atoxic work environment.
However, if nobody issubjecting you to bullying,

(32:54):
criticism or anything that makesyou to feel inferior, then it
doesn't look like a toxic workenvironment.
Take an example a securityofficer is always at the gate
there.
Sometimes the shift change isoperating at night, sometimes
it's operating during the day,but he's there five years down

(33:16):
the line.
He's doing the same job.
But he's there five years downthe line.
He's doing the same job.
Nobody's harassing him,nobody's accusing him that
something was stolen here.
It's up to you to pay.
Then they say no, this month weare deducting you so that we go
pay for these things that gotlost here.
Like it happens with thiscompany along Garden City pay

(33:37):
for these things that got losthere.
Like it happens with the casewith this company along Garden
City, the breweries behind there.
They break things or they go,they sell things.
Then they say the driver, theconductor, the security officer,
they are going to take it, itis going to be deducted from

(33:58):
their salary.
Now, that will fit into a toxicwork environment.
But if nobody is going toaccuse you or do something like
that, then you are not in atoxic environment.
It basically means one thing youare comfortable with whatever
you are doing.
That is why you are probablynot growing and you are

(34:18):
contented with it.
You are just with whatever youare doing.
That is why you are probablynot growing and you are
contented with it.
You are just like that securityofficer.
He is contented with the workthat he is doing and he doesn't
want it to change, because if itchanges he will probably
struggle.
For example, if he is guardingthis building, for example, and

(34:38):
here he is able to manage histime so that he only takes like
two hours to survey and then therest he sleeps.
Now if you tell him you takehim from here, he goes to guard
in an embassy where visitors arecoming in 24-7, he can't sleep
and he has to work with a policedog coming in 24-7, he can't
sleep and he has to work with apolice dog.

(34:58):
Then he doesn't want to go tochallenging environment.
Then that could be your case.
You are just okay.
You are pushing bags or you arefixing one bag in a week and
you are okay with that.
Then you are not in a toxicenvironment, you are just in

(35:18):
your comfort zone.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
Very good insight.
It's very good insight.

Speaker 4 (35:23):
Okay, that's a good one, so a quick one again.
So how do you view a toxic workenvironment with your mental
health and your physical health,and what are the consequences
that it brings?

Speaker 5 (35:45):
Well, mental health is a very critical thing that we
address.
Even when I started to do thesesporting activities, the thing
that drove me there was actuallytrying to fix my mental health,
and even right now I run acycling club and I try to help

(36:06):
people so that they can come outof things that are pinning them
down and trying to push them todepression and all those kind
of things.
Now, one thing that you canactually observe when it comes
to mental health if you findthat, for example, you have not

(36:28):
achieved your tasks on time andit just feels like you are going
to have a bad day.
For example, you are given atask.
You're supposed to do somethingto fix a bug by by end of this

(36:52):
week.
This week ends and monday youare having a stand-up.
For example, you come to thestand-up knowing very well that
you do not have any news.
Let me just say you do not haveany news.
That is pleasing to yoursuperiors and you just know

(37:14):
you're going to have a bad day.
It's like you just feel like'regoing to have a bad day.
It's like you just feel likelet me give you a scenario that
day when you've eaten somethingbecause your friends forced you
to eat it.
Now you know, today I'm notsleeping.
I'll be the one who will.
I will be traversing thecorridors towards the washroom.

(37:35):
I'll be the one there.
So you know you are going tohave a bad day.
So now the same thing happenswith you in the workplace.
So if you know that is whathappens, then probably your
mental health is very badbecause now your mind is already
showing you pictures.

(37:55):
It's creating mental pictures.
So today my boss is going toshout at me.
Today I know very well thatthey stand up.
My name will be mentioned moretimes than my mother ever called
me.
So you know very well yourmental health is very bad

(38:19):
because now your mind is notsending you positive signals,
even when you know you've notachieved so.
Again, when it comes to youknowing how to fix it, is that
if you're even struggling tothink critically, have you ever
tried to?
For example, have you evertried to reason with?

(38:39):
If you're even struggling tothink critically, have you ever
tried to?
For example, have you evertried to reason with a person
who is not sober?
And being sober doesn't mean tobe somebody who has taken
alcohol.
You might not have takenalcohol, but you're not sober.
Probably you watched adultcontent and now you're not sober
.
Probably you watched adultcontent and now you're not sober

(39:04):
.
Probably you've been through abad time.
Somebody close to you passed onso you can't even think clearly
.
So if you find that you are atwork, you're trying to think and
it's not coming until somebodyelse helps you, probably you are
, your mental health is not inthe right track.

(39:25):
So, and the best way I thinksomebody can fix that is, uh,
when you you decide to giveyourself a break, you give
yourself a break.
And, uh, a break, you giveyourself a break.

(39:46):
And normally I know I do this Ican say, on a weekend, this
weekend I'll go visit somebodysomewhere outside the account
and during that time I've leftmy laptop in my house in Nairobi
.
I've gone there and the onlything probably I'm having is my
phone.
And still, even if I'm havingmy phone, because now I'm with

(40:06):
somebody else it could be myuncle, it could be my aunt or
somebody you respect I'll nottouch my phone.
Even if texts are coming, I'llnot touch my phone.
I'll even put my data off sothat I now see things in a
different perspective, so thatby the time Monday comes.
I just come back with differentmemories.

(40:30):
I'm not thinking about the wayFriday ended, those kind of
things.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Now to avoid getting to that state where you're
already disturbed or you've beenin this toxic space that you
actually need a break.
What you can do is try andcombat it before you can try and
mitigate the situation you hadmentioned when we were talking
about the telltale signs that awork environment is toxic.
You had mentioned things suchas when you see an email past

(41:01):
your working hours, you respondwith well noted received the
corporate blue tick.
But what are the actualmeasures that you put in place
to shield yourself from toxicwork environments or to actually
help you be in a clearer pathof focus even when your

(41:22):
environment is toxic?
What measures do you put inplace?

Speaker 5 (41:26):
One thing if you are in a toxic work environment, you
might have to report when youare starting your work day and
also report when you are endingyour work day.
And when you do that, you logoff from whatever communication
tool you are working with.
It could be you are using Zoom,you are using Gmail, or you are

(41:50):
using Slack or Discord.
You just there is an optionwhere you turn off.
You say now out of office oraway.
So that is one thing you can do, but probably you must include
communicating when you start andwhen you end.

(42:10):
It's like when you, it's justlike when you are.
When you are joining theexpressway, you have to log into
the system and when you comeout of it, you also log out of
the system.
So you have to literally dothat.

(42:31):
Don't assume now, because it'snow 6 pm, now people know it's
not working hours somebody isexpecting some communication
from you and you've notcommunicated.
You've not communicated whatyou did that day or you've not
communicated that you are nowdone for the day.

(42:53):
So those are things you can doand you make sure that once you
do that outside this time youdon't respond to anything.
Now that is where you have atoxic, a really toxic
environment.
But in a normal environmentprobably nobody requires you to

(43:15):
report when you start work andwhen you end work.
In a normal environment peopleonly expect you to say, today
I'm having a flu, I will not beable to work, and probably say,
oh, I'll work from home.
Or you'll say I'm filling in aleave so that I be exempted from

(43:42):
work today.
So that's the normal one.
But communication has to bevery critical.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
So it boils down to the communication.
Make it as detailed as possible.
It's very critical.

Speaker 6 (43:55):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Awesome.
Yes, there is a suggestion fromthe audience, as Our attendee
makes their way forward to sharetheir question comment.
For those joining us, the themeis toxic work environment, the
cameraman he has a question.

Speaker 7 (44:18):
Hi I'm.
Joseph, hi, yeah, I'm Joseph.
I think I have over 100questions from the last
statement that you made on thesystem logging in and logging
out that is, maybe registeringwhen getting to work and going

(44:41):
out of work.
So I wanted to differentiatebetween now a toxic work
environment and a company's workenvironment policies.
That's one.
Two, in terms of saying workinglong hours how do you
distinguish working long hourswhen you work remote and you

(45:04):
have to incorporate the aspectof being flexible?
Three, yeah, in terms of againworking long hours or maybe
being contacted outside workinghours distinguish this toxic

(45:25):
work environment and working asan SRE.
Maybe if you could answer thosethen you can come back, okay.

Speaker 5 (45:37):
So I think if I miss out a question you'll remind me.
So let's start with the firstone.
I'll give a scenario.
And, believe me, I freelancedin a company and it was toxic.
I even wrote it in my blog andpeople are thinking like I'm

(45:58):
just getting stories.
I said it was remote and it wastoxic.
You just go see that in my blog,jack dot medium dot com, you
will find I've written a seriesand um, it was a company based
in new delhi and uh, our, our,our brothers from the other side

(46:20):
of the continent, they, theywant you to over communicate and
they also over communicate toyou.
At first it might seem good,but with time it starts to feel
like a bother.
So the way their policy was waswhereby we were using Zoom.

(46:42):
I know some of you Zoom.
You only use it when there is a, there is a webinar or a
meeting.
But now imagine, zoom can beused just the same way we are
using Google suit to communicate.
There are chat groups.
There is also contacts ofeverybody in the company.

(47:03):
They have been put inside there, even with their phone numbers.
You just find them there.
So, provided you are loggedinto their system, somebody can
just dial your contact and callyou.
They will call each other onWhatsApp, but now it's called on
Zoom.
So they created chat groups andalso you are also assigned a

(47:32):
mentor and you are assigned aproject manager, and sometimes
project manager could also beyour mentor.
But now you have like threechat groups there is one for
beginners, there is one for youwith your mentor, there is one
you you with your mentor, thereis one you with your project
manager.
You are giving different formsof communication, but the most

(47:57):
important one there.
Most of it was.
You have to wake up in themorning, depending with the way
your contract says when youstart your day.
You have to make sure thatexactly that time you log in,
you go to the respective chatand you say logged in and you

(48:22):
leave it.
That is, there was one.
You say that, and then there'sanother one.
You say locked in, today, I'llbe working on this and this and
this and this.
Then you continue In the middleof the day.
Again, you also communicate.
I've been working on this, I'vefinished on this, I'm here to

(48:43):
be working on this.
If you happen to be going for anature call, you say I'm going
to the toilet, I will spend thisnumber of minutes.
So they have that.
If you are going for lunch, youalso say I'm going for lunch,

(49:08):
I'll spend this number ofminutes.
If there is a power blackout,you say oh, there is a power
blackout in my area.
I'm looking for a place.
Let me look for a place whereI'll be able to get power and
continue working.
So you are even encouraged touse your phone, just in case if

(49:29):
your laptop runs out of powerbut your phone is still
connected, those kind of things.
So it gave me the mentalitythat there are people who value,
there are companies, that theirpolicy is you have to
communicate.
When you start your work andwhen you end your work and then

(49:51):
when you take a break, they areassuming you are in an office,
but now this office it is remote.
That is how they are assuming.
But as we go along it gets to apoint whereby it starts to feel
like the company policy it'sgood.
It gets to a point whereby itstarts to feel like the company
policy is good.
It's to help people know, likeyour project manager, if he's

(50:15):
asked if so-and-so reported towork today, he can be able to
say yes, so-and-so reported towork today.
I have seen he has said that helogged in at this time, lunch
time.
He said he went for lunch andhe is working on these tasks.
So when you look at it outside,it looks like the company

(50:37):
policy is very outlined.
They want to know what ishappening with their workers
from time to time.
It's fine.
But now how it becomes toxic isthe fact that if you delay to
report, it becomes a problem Ifyou are called, because now

(50:59):
somebody can call, you, can textyou, and you are not responding
.
The next thing they are callingyou.
You are not responding to thecall.
Now it becomes an issue to them.
They start are not responding.
The next thing they are callingyou, you are not responding to
the call.
Now it becomes an issue to them.
They start to say they, they.
They start to you find the ceohimself is texting you, is
texting you.

(51:19):
Then the next thing is callingis asking you where are you?
It happened to me so I startedto feel.
Now it is becoming toxic,because if the CEO of the
company is now coming to ask mewhere I am, then I'm telling him
well, I stepped out, I went fora nature call.
Then he asks you why didn't yousay you were going for a nature

(51:41):
call?
Then you say I'm sorry, it wasabrupt, I had.
Then you say I'm sorry, it wasabrupt, I had to literally rush
from my desk to go relievemyself because of sitting for
long hours.
Oh, you should have said oh,then why did you take this long?

(52:03):
You know how you will haveproblem explaining such kind of
things, because now this is aceo, you expect it's supposed to
be dealing with bigger things,but now it's dealing with small
things and again you are feelingyou have.
You are feeling it is in aninappropriate communication
you're having with somebody upthere.

(52:25):
You're expecting to have thiscommunication with somebody who
is immediately after you.
So that is how now you start tofeel like one thing my privacy
is being infringed, my space isbeing infringed and you start to
feel like you are in a smallprison.

(52:45):
So the moment you start to feelyou are in a small prison, so
the moment you start to feel youare in a small prison, it has
become a toxic one.
So that is where you willdefine that.
If you go to Safaricom, therewas a time Safaricom.
They used to have a smallcompany that was for developers.
It was called Safaricom Alpha.
We used to have meetups there.

(53:08):
Sometimes it was based nearIhab, where Ihab is.
You would go there.
They have written on the wallplease don't sit on your desk
from morning to evening.
Do you take time to go out andenjoy fresh air?

(53:31):
They have written that.
And then they have a room.
They are all things that younormally find in a gym.
They have that room.
You can go there anytime and dowhatever you want, as long as
you come back to your desk andyou do your work, nobody has a
problem.
So that is the policy that wasthere and I saw it was a good

(53:51):
one.
So I think company policieslike now that company policy, it
is asking you to take time togo out and have some fresh air.
Somebody might even feel it istoxic to him because probably he
has a bulging stomach and hedoesn't want to arouse himself
there, so it can feel toxic tohim.

(54:14):
I hope I've answered your firstquestion.
You've not been able to get adistinction between them.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
Thank you just to have the twitter space audience
with us in the conversation.
So the question that he hasasked is that to clearly define
what exactly in work policiesmakes it a toxic environment For
example, if the company doesnot have a gym, does that
qualify them as a toxic workenvironment?

(55:33):
What policies exactly enableyou to pinpoint and say this one
is toxic?

(56:01):
This one is not yes we'll havethe question repeated, just so
that we can all follow along.

Speaker 7 (56:11):
You guys, you have to listen to me.
I'm not coming here for the micagain.

Speaker 5 (56:18):
Don't be toxic.

Speaker 7 (56:20):
All right, yeah, so when I'm near the mic my
questions evaporate.
Yeah so policies?
My question was not like, say,are these policies making the
work, or maybe the environment,to be toxic?

(56:41):
Or maybe like saying overcommunicating right or maybe
over doing something.
Is it a company policy or arethey just enforcing it because
of you or maybe because ofcertain people?
So instead of maybe explainingit in you know, comparing two
different companies, maybe justexplain it in one company

(57:05):
without you know, without havingto base in maybe a situation.

Speaker 5 (57:13):
I would say this.
I would say this that when youstart to feel that a company
policy is toxic to you, it couldbe personal.
Probably it's not somethingthat is appealing to somebody
else.
Somebody else is finding itfine.
For example, if somebody thinksit is the right way things

(57:37):
should be done or is new to thatcompany, he will probably find
it's not hard.
But if yourself you're not usedto that kind of policy, I'm
sure you will start to feel itis a bit toxic.
So again, another thing thatcan make a company policy might
be very okay.
But now the problem will be thepeople who are enforcing the

(58:01):
company policy.
So the people who are enforcingthe company policy, they can
overdo it.
The moment they overdo it, thatis now when it becomes toxic.
And if they overdo it and youtry to look for intervention and
you don't find the proper way,it will not intervene the way

(58:22):
you expected.
Again, now that increases thetoxicity of the situation.
I think that is how toxicity ofthe situation.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
I think that is how I can say it Okay, sorry, sorry.

Speaker 7 (58:34):
Yeah.
So you are saying maybe you arenot used to how they are doing
things right?
That was something that justfrom your statement.
How about adapting?
Well, if you Adaptability thatis.

Speaker 5 (58:48):
If it takes long for you to adapt, you definitely
have found yourself in a toxicenvironment.

Speaker 7 (58:57):
So is it a toxic work environment or it's you who
does not fit in that working?

Speaker 5 (59:03):
environment.
I would have wanted to respondwith two words it depends, but I
will not say it depends.
I will say still, it could be apersonal thing to you.
Also, it will also be based onthe people who are responsible

(59:29):
for the employer relation,mostly the HR.
If you looked for theintervention of the HR to help
you to adapt and it is nothelping, that one also could be
an issue, because it's the workof the HR to help you to adapt.
For example, if basically whenyou are hired, the person who

(59:52):
handles you until now you startto get your streamline into the
company system is normally theHR.
So if the HR doesn't help youto get to a point where now you
are flowing with the companypolicy you to get to a point
where now you are flowing withthe company policy, then
probably it's not that you havefailed to adapt.

(01:00:13):
It's probably because the HR isnot even doing a good job to
help you to adapt to theircompany.
Next question, the otherquestion that you asked you are
saying about if probably you arean sr, sre, and you are now

(01:00:37):
trying to look at it likeworking hours.

Speaker 6 (01:00:40):
well, it will come down to the contract.

Speaker 5 (01:00:42):
The contract is everything based on the contract
that you are working with.
The contract should state thetime that you're supposed to be
working official working hours.
So it means whoever is draftingyour contract has to be
somebody who is well-versed.
Definitely it could be a CTO,and this CTO is from this field

(01:01:07):
of software development and nowhe has gone up the ranks.
Now he understands if we arerecruiting an SRE, or we are
recruiting a DevOps engineer, orwe are recruiting a mobile app
engineer, or we are recruiting,for example let me use a bigger

(01:01:29):
term a webmaster.
You know, a webmaster.
So depending on the title ofthe role that you are being, it
has a different JD.
Now, whoever is drafting that isthe one who is going to draft
the contract.
They should be able to state inyour contract when you're
supposed to be working.
So they will state and ensurethat if you are an SRE, you can

(01:01:54):
be able.
You can decide to be with yourlaptop in Diani doing anything,
but when something needs you,you jump right on it.
It doesn't matter the time ofthe day, so it depends on the
contractor.

Speaker 7 (01:02:10):
Okay, let's now maybe alleviate that aspect of being
an SRE or maybe a DevOpsengineer, maybe in a modern
environment.
Sorry to say so, if maybe I'mbeing maybe more toxic In a
modern environment, I believe asa DevOps engineer who is?

(01:02:30):
also a backend engineer.
I believe in the mantra of youbuild it, you ship it and you
run it, so for you to fix theerror that is happening or maybe
an issue that is happening infraud, I don't expect you to be
an SRE or a DevOps engineer.
I expect you to be the personwho built that product.
So how do you respond to thatin terms of being approached or

(01:02:52):
maybe called in odd hours inrelation to toxic products?

Speaker 5 (01:03:02):
Well, it could actually be toxic.
Whereby you find Let me give anexample In a place I once
worked, there was a DevOps guyand this DevOps guy he had a
very good policy that he camewith it.
And my boss was a tough guy buthe had to bend and agree to

(01:03:28):
that policy.
He told him, if I work outsideworking hours, or I work towards
midnight, the next day I'm notcoming to work, or if I come to
work, I'll come after lunchtime.
And they agreed.

(01:03:51):
So that is it.
So you yourself, you have toset your terms.
You say it's like a tug of war.
You place a line.
If you cross over this otherside, I've won against you.

Speaker 7 (01:04:10):
Let's move that part where you are now not maybe
attending to work the followingday, or maybe you are shifting
the hours.
Now responding to that it'stoxic, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, are yousupposed to be contacted during
those odd hours or you're notsupposed to be contacted because
it's?

Speaker 5 (01:04:29):
um, I think you're supposed to be contacted because
because even me, as a mobileapp developer, sometimes I can
get feedback about the appduring odd hours, and it doesn't
mean that during odd hours andit doesn't mean that somebody is
installing the app.

(01:04:49):
They have to do it duringworking hours.
They can do it any other timeor they can be using the app at
a different time, For example,on a weekend, and the app fails
and they are not able to enjoythe app, For example, and they
are not able to enjoy the app,For example, like the app is not

(01:05:13):
allowing somebody to log in.
So you should be able to reportthat feedback.
So I think you should also belenient enough to receive
feedback during odd hours.
Look at it like feedback, butwhen you choose to act upon it,
it is now upon you.
It's just that, again, the waythe feedback will come to you.

(01:05:35):
It doesn't have to come like itis a matter of life and death.
You are being notified thatthis and this has happened.
Take it, for example, when Idon't know I cannot be sure if
there are people from Sudan, butwhenever they did their DDDOS
attack on our system, I'm surethere are people who didn't

(01:05:58):
sleep and up to now they arestill recovering from that.
Definitely they had to besubjected to a toxic work
environment, Because now you arebeing given a feedback and you
are supposed to act upon it andprobably they had to be given
incentives so that they couldactually do that the same thing.

(01:06:21):
I've seen it, I've heard itfrom my friends who are working
in Safarikon.
There was a time M-Pesa Hub wasnot working properly.
So there are people they had toburn the midnight oil and make
sure that services are up andrunning within hours and they

(01:06:42):
had to be compensated in termsof time and also the allowances.
So if that happened, then nowthe toxic part of it was taken
care of.
If that didn't happen, thendefinitely it was toxic.

Speaker 7 (01:07:01):
A follow-up.
If then it's being compensated,is it still a toxic environment
If?

Speaker 5 (01:07:08):
then it's being compensated.
Is it still a toxic environment?
It's not.
It's just that it has beencushioned.
Now you won't feel the pain.

Speaker 7 (01:07:21):
It's like I'm slapping you and I'm paying you.
I'm lost.
I'm lost.
Hi guys, I'm Joseph, a DevOpsengineer at Accred.
Don't miss.
Next week, on a Thursday, I'llbe talking on DevOps Roundtable
here at AT.
So my first session at AT.
I want to respond to yourquestion on.

(01:07:42):
You asked something onperseverance or maybe taking
whatever is available for you inan entry level.
To my understanding, at entrylevel, what are you applying for
?
Are you applying for aninternship, apprenticeship or
maybe a junior role?
All those will guide you.

(01:08:03):
Don't just take whatever isthere for you.
And maybe you are just comingwith quote-unquote some peer
pressure from other developerswho are out here.
You want to, you know, to say,or to tell people how you are
earning, how you are makingmoney, but in the real sense
you're just as Jack said, youare subjecting yourself to a

(01:08:25):
toxic work environment.
In fact, it's not even a toxicwork environment.
You are being toxic to yourself.
So don't just come out, or comeout here with a lot of peer
pressure.
You want to tell people howyou've been employed or how you
are working.
You shouldn't come with highexpectations, yeah definitely,

(01:08:46):
and also taking what is therefor you, or maybe whatever is
there because you want to takeit.
Ask yourself which company am Iapplying for or at which
company is this?
Is it a startup?
Is it a well-versed company?
Those are the questions thatyou ought to ask yourself.
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
Awesome.
Thank you very much.
I love the engaging nature thatwe are questioning things like
what really is toxic If I'mbeing paid for it, is it really
toxic?
These are the questions thatshould really be burning inside
us right now, because this isthe forum to share and hear from
people.
Jack is here to give us hisinsights on it.
That was another question.

(01:09:27):
As we proceed.

Speaker 8 (01:09:34):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
I want to partly respond toyour question on policies.
Apparently, I'm one of thepeople who draft policies.

Speaker 5 (01:09:50):
Your name.

Speaker 8 (01:09:51):
My name is Christine from Africa Stalking.
So one thing you have to knowpolicies are simply guidelines
that are used, officially agreedupon, guidelines that are
agreed within an organization onhow to work in a company, in a

(01:10:14):
company setup.
Policies are guidelines At home.
You also have guidelines thatyou follow in your houses, so
it's simply something that youlook upon on how you're going to
work or how you're going tointeract within an organization,
and when policies are being setwe look at the law of the land.

(01:10:37):
So it is very rare to find thata policy is toxic, but what it
is.
I can say is people abuseeverything, even in life.
We have things in life, but weabuse.
We have relationships, but weabuse.

(01:10:58):
We have money, but we abuse.
So people who sit down, theyhave really gone into the legal
implications to put downpolicies, like something you
talked about on working hours.
Each country, whenever you seea working hour in a policy, it's

(01:11:18):
not the company that has comeup with it.
They have tapped into thelegalism of that country.
Go to Zambia, come to Kenya.
So whenever you find that youare working over and above I
think in Kenya it's 48 hours ina in a week whenever you find
yourself working over and aboveit means you're illegally

(01:11:41):
working.
But, um, just to example, maybethe nature of your job, like
people who look atinfrastructure or medics, you
can find sometimes people in themedical they can be called we
and ours but you find that thereare systems that cushions that

(01:12:03):
Like, I think, what youmentioned.
When you come to hospitals, yes, you'll find this shift work to
ensure that you don't work longhours.
For infrastructure, that issoftware, I think you're
ensuring that yourinfrastructure is working
normally.
But those times when you'recalled upon it means there's an

(01:12:26):
error, not unless the error iscaused.
If that is the thing, somethingis missing either with the
backend or.
But normally everyinfrastructure or software, the
way it's been developed, it's towork properly.
You'll only be called upon whensystem errors, something

(01:12:47):
happens.
But when that happens, mostcompanies what they do, for
example, like Africa Stocking,if you find people, maybe
they're doing an overhaul, whatis it called?
At night, the following day youmight find they will not report
at nine, probably coming atnoon.
So there's a local arrangementthat happens within

(01:13:08):
organizations to just ensurethat people have time to
rejuvenate, people have time torest.
But companies are always veryconsiderate, but you can
actually find companies that areforced to work outside working
hours.
Then it depends.
Maybe if you're a globalcompany, for example, the
infrastructure sits here and youpower maybe Cote d'Ivoire or

(01:13:36):
Nigeria.
You see, when you're restingyou find that them they are
still not resting, so there'llbe a lot of demand on your end.
So, as a company, what you cando as software developers, if
you're straining, it's good tobring that up either with your
supervisor or head of department.
So like, for example, at whatwe do, we cannot have SREs

(01:14:01):
sitting in all our markets, butwe can have product support
people who are tech, who duringthose working hours they can sit
in because they are wellequipped to be able to serve
that country.
So companies always makeadjustments to make sure issues
in different markets that are indifferent time zones are still

(01:14:24):
addressed.
The beauty of having suchresources sitting in different
countries means the developersthere can address
country-specific issues thatcome up, things like also
well-being and the like.
So whenever you find thatpolicies are toxic, there's a
problem either with theexecution I think someone

(01:14:47):
mentioned with execution ofpolicies and working hours is
literally very painful when youget yourself working over and
above and it's actually illegal.
And these days the courts arevery friendly to employees.
Even when you just show up tothe courts and say you don't
even need a lawyer, that companyis going to pay dearly for

(01:15:10):
allowing you to work long hoursBecause the courts in Kenya and
in any other country they don'tpermit that, they cushion the
employees.
Really, you just need to keepvoicing in that I don't know
what else I have to say.
Yeah, and also to the questionthe pretty lady raised, I think

(01:15:31):
also something around carryingwork home and how that
translates to the elderly aswell yeah, carrying.
I think when it comes tocarrying work home, we also need
to put it in context.
Why are you carrying work home?
Because there are many ways oflooking at it.

(01:15:53):
Were you so overwhelmed thatyou didn't finish your work and
you had to carry work home?
Or is it the nature of yourwork?
Because once in a while, yes,you can take work home if there
are projects and deadlines andall that, and so you need to
really put it in context tofigure out.
Why are you carrying work home?

(01:16:14):
Because, asking someone whoprobably sits in the people's
team, I would not advise you tocarry work at any one time.
But if it's once in a while fora specific reason, to just meet
a deadline or a project, that'sunderstandable.
But the default more becauseafter COVID there's all this, I

(01:16:36):
think even what we're talkingabout, about well-being and
wellness, and what you'retalking about on mental wellness
, which is very important foreach person to consider.
So the self-care taking workhome, literally, it's just
you're not taking care ofyourself, you're not taking care
of your mental wellness.
But if a company, literally Idon't think there's a company

(01:16:59):
that tells you please take yourwork home, it's just something.
But if you put it in context,you're able to know why am I
taking work home?
Is this a one-off?
Is it how work normally happens?
Yeah, so that one will beresponded if we have the context
.
And then also back to entrylevel.

(01:17:19):
I agree with the previous.
So because?
So, because we are developersand we are young people I could
tell that some of us arestudents here.
Work environment has reallychanged.
It's not how it used to be manyyears back.

(01:17:40):
This time everybody knows whatthey want to do.
Everybody is aware of theirpassion.
Yes, it might be tricky whenyou're entering the workforce
right now, but even when you'reentering, you really know what
your passion is.
If you're in software, yes, youcan enter, and then probably

(01:18:01):
you're going to do back-end,full-stack infrastructure,
back-end, full-stackinfrastructure.
But over time you will know Iprefer full-stack or I prefer
back-end.
You yourself will be able todetermine.
So, even when you're enteringthe workforce, you will just not
take anything.
You will take that that you'repassionate about.

(01:18:23):
So no one should deceive you tojust take anything, because
you'll be very frustrated andyou won't even last.
I think where we are, we keepencouraging people, no matter
the level you are at.
Spend time doing what youreally enjoy.
And then, when it comes topromotions and maybe you're in

(01:18:46):
an organization where there's nogoing up there, for Africa
stocking, for example we don'thave ranks, so there's no ladder
.
But our growth is nothierarchical, it's not vertical,
this is vertical.

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):
It's horizontal.

Speaker 8 (01:19:04):
The growth is horizontal, it's not vertical.
And for software developers, Iknow you understand.
Horizontal, yeah, the growth ishorizontal, it's not vertical.
And for software developers, Iknow you understand, for young
people, right now growth is notgoing up.
Today I'm able to do this.
Tomorrow I'm able to dosomething else.
If I was developing somethinginternally, am I able to develop

(01:19:27):
something that can be sold intothe market?
Because your growth pattern ismaybe in regards to languages.
If you came in and you onlyknew Java, and then you come
probably in 80, and now you'redoing Scala.
So growth is what's happeningwith my skill set?
Am I improving?
So, when I get a job, it's asif what's happening with my

(01:19:48):
skill set?
Am I improving?
So when I get a job, it's as ifwhat's that?
Saying A jack?
of all trades but a master.
There's so much you can do outthere.
It's just that what is theopportunity?
Whatever opportunity presentsitself, I'm able to do it.
So that's one of the thingsI've seen with developers and

(01:20:11):
young people.
Their growth is diverse interms of capability, skill set.
That's how it looks like.
So people don't even want toget up, they just want to get
skills.
And then, once you get yourskills, an opportunity presents
itself.
Then it comes with the money.
So you just equip yourself withso much skill set, so much

(01:20:32):
capabilities.

Speaker 2 (01:20:34):
Thank you, thank you christine, quite some insight
and nuggets right from person inthe team that helps draft the
policies themselves.
So we have seen toxic workenvironments what they are,
tried to define them withrelation to policies, with
relation to working hours, withrelation to should you persevere

(01:20:57):
, and all that that's all beingsaid, the telltale signs.
We have discussed them, how toknow and measures that you can
put in place to mitigate.
What would be your final takeAnything in the toxic work
environment space, your partingshot that you'd like to share
with the audience online andphysically.

Speaker 5 (01:21:18):
Okay, is it like somebody has a question Just
come?

Speaker 6 (01:21:31):
just come.
So my question is very radical.
I feel like we can agree.
As Africans we are quite behindin everything and as Miss said
she said a jack of all trades isa master of none and as
Africans I feel like in theWestern world, you know,

(01:21:51):
software development is dividedinto a lot of things.
There's someone who's here,someone who's there.
But in Africa, for us to catchup to the Western world, you
have to just, you have to be amaster of all.
So for us to catch up to them,you have to do everything.
You have to just every part ofAfrica, western to eastern.
So you doing everything tocatch up for everyone.

(01:22:13):
Is that a toxic workenvironment?
Or just having the, you know,trying to make Africa great?
Is that toxic?
Or you just want to relax?
Oh, that's toxic.
That's what I mean.
Thank you, oh that's toxic.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
That's what I mean, thank you.
Actually, my name is TeddyWaria from Africa Stalking.
I just wanted to comment onthat.
When you're building something,consider Africa at this moment
to be in 1973.
So we have to catch up.
And when we have to catch up,we have to roll our sleeves.

(01:22:56):
And in terms of negotiating howlong you work, some people look
at the clock, and those who maylove what they do, they don't
even look at the clock.
I personally don't look at theclock.
I've never looked at the clockwhen I'm working, but that
doesn't apply to everybody.
So you need to balance yourbody and your life either 8, 8,

(01:23:20):
8 hours within the 24-hour cycle.
So 8 hours for sleep, 8 hoursfor work and eight hours for
play.
So that also works In terms ofengaging with your HR or
people's team and all that.
Just learn the skill of how tonegotiate.
Everything can be sold over acup of tea.

Speaker 5 (01:23:45):
Okay, I love the way you said it, over a cup of tea,
I'll just say two weeks ago wehad a sports day at Britain and
it was a nice time to catch up.
So the guy that was taking usfor the day, or our MC for the

(01:24:05):
day, was telling us that if youhave something with your
superior, that is the time todeal with them.
But just know, on Monday theyare with you.
It was on a Friday.
It was on a Friday, but it wasa nice time.

(01:24:27):
I actually managed to carry oneof my bosses on my back and we
were taking the same cup ofcoffee and we were exchanging
stories.
Now we are not talking aboutwork, we are just talking about
other things.
I also got to interact with theHRs.

(01:24:49):
Now this time they were notspeaking behind the emails or
anything.
I was just talking face to faceand I realized the HRs.
They are even the nicest people.

Speaker 4 (01:25:04):
They are not faking smiles.

Speaker 5 (01:25:07):
So, like you said, everything can always be sorted
over a cup of coffee.
That HR is the first person youneed to be friends with so that
when things are bad, when theysay, you can go to her.
I just want to hope that nobodyis having an HR who is a male.

(01:25:30):
If an HR is a male, it can bechaos a bit.
I've worked where there was aHR who was a male and when he
had a problem with his wife backat home he will come to the
office and he will be sayingmistakes everywhere.

(01:25:51):
So just try and.
So let me go to the parting shot.
I'll just say a few things thatare written down that still it
comes down to HR departments andmanagement and the things that
they can do to address toxicbehaviours and cultures.
And one and the things thatthey can do to address toxic
behaviors and cultures, and oneof them is that they need to

(01:26:11):
develop clear policies againstharassment, bullying and
discrimination.
They need to provide regulartraining on diversity, inclusion
and respectful communication,and then they need to conduct
regular employee surveys togauge the workplace satisfaction
.
Then they need to addresscomplaints and conflicts

(01:26:35):
promptly and impartially.
Then, lastly, they need topromote work-life balance and
employee-being initiatives.
So if any of those things thatI've mentioned, those five
things that I've mentioned, ifthey are not happening where you
are, then probably you can justgo to the HR and try to see if

(01:26:57):
there is something that the HRcan actually do to improve that.
And this is even not to do withmoney, it's just creating time.
For example, the HR can decideone Friday especially, for
example, the last Friday of themonth, you can all have lunch

(01:27:20):
together or you can have thatevening.
It becomes like a sports day.
In the afternoon.
People go and have a nice timein the field, probably a field
somewhere there so that you getto know the people you are

(01:27:43):
working with and you even reducethe tension that was building
up people you are working withand you even reduce the tension
that was building up.
Basically, you don't finishyour tenure at your company
without knowing some people.
You know people and youinteract with them.

Speaker 2 (01:28:00):
All right.
Thank you, that has been quitean engaging session.
Thank you for the insights fromthe audience themselves.
You have been an amazing crowdchiming in with insightful
nuggets of wisdom.
You did your research and welove to see it, really love to
see it, key takeaways beingremember to work hard with the

(01:28:21):
resources you're given andstrive to attain a reasonable
work-life balance.
Yes, yes, remember work isimportant, but also what you do
outside work is important.
Your mental health is veryimportant.
Your physical health is very,very important.
So keep those key things alwaysin check, ensure they are right
and wish you all the very best.

(01:28:43):
That being said, I will hand itover back to Josphat to close
the evening and the session forus.

Speaker 4 (01:28:51):
It was just a long period arguing, understanding
everything.
So I think we have learned abit and known some few bits,
especially from the HR, knownsome few bit, especially from
the HR.
So part and short is we'll beconducting our meetups every

(01:29:13):
first Thursday of the month.
So the next one will be a techjourney for the big people.
So you'll find the big peoplein IT talking about their tech
journey and yeah so, and theother thing, the next meetup,
the CTO Roundtable 10th, whichwill be amazing when we attend.

(01:29:39):
Then finally, next week,Nairobi Innovation Week.
So it's a big thing.
If you haven't, grab yourticket, grab, let's build and
let's make Africa talk.
Yeah, Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:56):
Right, thank you very much.
Have yourselves a lovelyevening for people online.
Have a lovely rest of the dayand see you in the next one.