#45 Innovating for Change: Empowering Rural Tanzania with Catherine Kimambo

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What happens when you combine passion, resilience, and an unyielding commitment to rural development? Catherine R. Kimambo, the founder of African Child Projects, answers this by sharing her transformative journey from Arusha to Dar es Salaam. In this episode, Catherine takes us through her bold decision to forgo university to pursue global volunteering, a choice that set her on a path of advocating for affordable internet access and language-inclusive AI technology in Tanzania. This episode promises to inspire and educate, offering invaluable insights into her experiences with the Erasmus+ program, which ultimately inspired the creation of African Child Projects.

Step into the contrasting worlds of Arusha and Dar es Salaam through Catherine's eyes. From personal anecdotes about life in these cities to the vibrant cultural experiences, she provides a nuanced perspective on how these environments shaped her vision and actions. We delve into the African Child Projects' impactful ICT initiatives across Tanzania's 26 regions, where a dedicated team of youth is empowering local communities with digital skills. Hear heartwarming stories of introducing students to computers for the first time and learn about the significant strides being made to build confidence among African children.

Technology meets inclusivity in our deep dive into the Mozilla Common Voice project and its Swahili initiative, Sauti ya Jamii. Catherine discusses the importance of including diverse voices in technology, particularly for non-English speakers and people from various tribal backgrounds. We explore the challenges and successes of engaging women and other marginalized groups in voice data collection, the ambitious plans for the African Child Academy, and the broader implications of expanding these initiatives. Catherine’s story is a compelling testament to the power of youth-led innovation and the potential of technology to transform rural communities.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Welcome once again.
It's a beautiful day and youare blessed to be in Darussalam,

(00:29):
tanzania, once again.
Thank you, what's up?
Bongo Mpopoa?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is Impact Masters Podcast,in collaboration with Africa's
Talking Retour Podcast, broughtto you by Michael Kamadi of Yont
MK, telling the stories ofImpact Masters, movers and

(00:57):
shakers in tech.
And today, today's a bit shinyand if I look at my back, I can
see Indian Ocean quite abeautiful scene.
And today we are hostingCatherine R Kimambo, the founder

(01:22):
and executive director ofAfrican Child Projects.
You can find these atafricanchildprojectsorg.
It's an NGO that aims to changethe narrative about African
communities and its peoplethrough transformative projects
in technology, education, policy, regulations and rural

(01:42):
development in Tanzania.
Additionally, she serves as acommunity champion for the
Common Voice Project underMozilla Foundation, which will
be delving in extensivelyWorking on language-inclusive AI
technology by creating a voicedataset for the Kiswahili
language.

(02:03):
Catherine represents BasicInternet Foundation.
Norway Founded basicinternetorgin Tanzania, advocating for
affordable internet access forall.
She boosted a vast background,including being an alumni of
YALI East Africa, a Europeanyouth volunteer, erasmus,

(02:23):
erasmus Moody is 2017.
Open Space Foundation inBulgaria, a 2022 Microsoft
Founders, hub Scholar and amember of youth IGF.
Catherine's dedication extendsto being a blogger and
storyteller, sharing inspiringnarratives on how the internet

(02:44):
is positively transforming ruralTanzania.
Emphasizing internet for good.
Welcome once again.
How are you, catherine?

Speaker 2 (02:54):
I am fine.
How have you been?

Speaker 1 (02:56):
I'm good.
I'm good, so forget about whatI just said, because that's what
you want you know the world toknow you for.
But there's who Catherine is,and I think it would be
beautiful if we start from thatpoint where you tell us who is
Catherine.
Where did Catherine start?
Leave aside the biography thatyou just read Let us know

(03:19):
Catherine for Catherine, notCatherine for biography.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
So could.
Mixing is allowed rightbiography Okay, so could mixing
is allowed, right, yeah, okay,sure, so the way I'll describe
Catherine.
I would say she's resilient,curious, adventurous, patient

(03:43):
and also loves to work in a team.
I think that's because I'm aLibra as well, so that adds up
to the balance.
I'm balanced.
I love everything aboutequality and balance and that's
why, you see, most of my workgravitates around how do I bring
certain services to people whocan't afford.

(04:04):
So that's how my flow has been.
But if I say resilience andpatient, I think it takes me
back to when I started.
When all this started, that was20, I started this journey in
2015.
I think it was as soon as Ifinished my Form 6 studies, and

(04:25):
then I wanted somethingdifferent for myself.
I really wanted to know what'sout there apart from just
studying, getting a good degreeand then applying for a job, and
then that's the flow that thewhole world sets for us.
So, as a youth, I wanted to seewhat's out there, what's

(04:47):
different, what's somethingdifferent I can do with myself.
So I started as soon as Ifinished my Form 6, I decided I
was not going to apply foruniversity.
I think my parents freaked out.
They thought it was all aboutpeer pressure and maybe somebody
just influenced me or maybe I'mon to something, but deep down.
I just knew that there wassomething more out there apart

(05:08):
from just studying and getting adegree, so I applied for
different volunteeringopportunities to travel the
world and see what's out there.
I started engaging in differentprojects at a very young age and
then something kicked in.
I think I got my first, firstvolunteering opportunity with

(05:30):
Erasmus+, the European Union,and that was a shock to my
parents.
When I told them I have aticket and I'm traveling to
Bulgaria, they were relating itto human trafficking.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
Somebody could be kidnapping you.
How can?

Speaker 2 (05:45):
you just travel out of nowhere.
Your clan or your family hasnever traveled abroad, so I
would love to term myself as thefirst.
I think I'm the first to domany things in my family.
I'm also the first to do manythings with different youth
groups that I meet.
I've pioneered differentprojects at a very young age, so

(06:07):
for me that's the resiliencethat comes with it.
I think also the patience tonurture things from the ground
to see them grow.
So that's how I would describecaffeine.
If you leave aside the bio andthe accolades deep down, I'm
just someone who wants toexplore the bio and the
accolades Deep down.
I'm just someone who wants toexplore, someone who wants to
see what's out there, whoenvisions different outcomes

(06:29):
that can come out of somethingand not going with the status
quo or the norms that are set byus, by the community.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Do you come from Dao?
You were born here, bred here,everything.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
No, I was born in Arusha, a region just.
I think we're close to Nairobi.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
We're neighbors, practically Two hours drive yeah
.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yes, so I was born in Arusha.
The first time me coming to Dares Salaam was when I finished
Form 6.
Okay, relocating from the placeI was born to a new city.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
Starting afresh and deciding I was not going for
college.
So this is.
I would term Dar es Salaam asthe land of opportunities.
Everyone who wants to dosomething different or start
something new with their lives.
They come to Dar es Salaam tojust explore and see what's out
there.
And it's not false, becausethere are a lot of opportunities
for most people who know whatthey want when you come to this

(07:23):
city.
So when I relocated in 2015, Iknew exactly what I wanted and
this looked like a land ofopportunity for me to get what I
want.
So I relocated here in 2015 todate.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Now that you've come from Arusha, how is the
experience growing in Arusha?

Speaker 2 (07:41):
Arusha is a very small city.
You can find your way aroundeasily.
I remember coming here for thefirst time I was very scared to
move around because of thestories you'd hear about Dar es
Salaam.
I'm sure you've been it's thesame hustle as Nairobi, the
capital cities, you know.
So when you want to get topublic transport, sometimes you

(08:03):
have to enter through the window.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
I've seen a couple of videos around.
That it's true.
Did you ever get into thatexperience?
No, you look flexible, though Ican pass through small spaces.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
But no, for me it was , I think I wouldn't say
cultural shock, but theadaptation that came with moving
to a new city, having to learneverything from scratch my way
around and all that.
I think it took some time forme to adapt but luckily for me I

(08:38):
had friends who have beenliving here, who I studied with,
so they easily took me in,wanted to show me around and so
that for me was at leastassisted in the adaptation phase
of relocation that's nice.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
What is your craziest encounter in Arusha that you
can't forget?

Speaker 2 (09:03):
craziest encounter in Arusha.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
And it can be both good and bad.
Okay, let me see.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Oh, Dar es Salaam, my first time coming here.
I think craziest encounter inDar was when you're walking
around in the city and then youwear your backpack on your back
because it's a backpack, but inDha you have to wear it at the
front because someone could beopening your bag in crowd places

(09:34):
.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Wow, is that crazy.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
And take something off your backpack.
So when I was walking at sometime I think it was 2015 when I
came in, when I was freshly fromMarusha.
I was wearing my bag and therewas money in my backpack and so,
as I'm walking, someone wasopening my bag, and then people
could see someone doing that,but they're not going to tell
you so as soon as you discover,if you discover on your own that

(09:57):
someone is opening your bag,that's when they start to assist
you.
But if you don't they say, okay,let him just have his luck.
He was lucky this time and sosomeone was opening my bag and
then I could hear someoneunzipping my bag and then when
you turn around, you just seeeveryone moving around with
their business.
He's acting as if he's justlooking somewhere else, but if

(10:18):
you start walking he's alsofollowing you.
So someone opened my bag andtook the money out.
Then I was like someone tookthe money out of my bag and then
he was starting to walk.
I said he took my money out,then people started chasing him
and he threw the money and ranaway.
Yeah, but in worst casescenarios people would start
beating him up, you know thosethings Mob justice, yeah, but

(10:38):
for me that was like a shock,because in Arusha you wouldn't
have anyone doing that to you,yeah.
So I think that also put me insurvival mode.
Most of the time when I'm inDar es Salaam, you have to also
okay, where's my phone?
Where's my bag?
When you get into publictransport, when you're squeezing
into the bus, someone is alsosqueezing into your bag and your

(10:59):
pockets, yeah so it's aconstantly survival mode in.
I think those are the craziestmoments, but apart from that,
it's fun being here.
There are a lot of things thatyou can do as a youth for fun
activities, game nights, clubnights please give us a bucket
list.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
The beach to start with.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
as you see, we are at the almost close to the beach
area, but also if you are up fora nightlife, I think Nereslam
is the place to be Anyrecommendations.
Havok.
There's a place called Havok.
The name speaks for itself.
Yeah, so I've been around todifferent places in Nara and

(11:42):
it's fun.
But Arusha is a place where, at9, 8, 8 pm, everyone is already
inside sleeping, but here, evenat 3 am, people are still out,
so the city is busy throughout.
So, for me that's a plus.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Nice, nice.
So any interesting you knowmemorable moments in Arusha.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
interesting you know memorable moments in Arusha.
So, for me, arusha adds up tomy second personality, which is
this person who loves to exploreand adventurous.
So I go hiking.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
In.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
Kilimanjaro.
No, there are like small, smallhills in Arusha Mount Meru,
there's Tenggeru.
The different places I go tohike the safaris in Arusha are
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, chef's kiss.
Yeah, yes, who is that?
Is that English Chef's kiss,it's.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
Ah, I see.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
That's interesting.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, so the safaris, hiking, camping.
You can't find a camping placein da so if you were this person
who is more outdoor in terms ofnature and all that that I find
in arusha so in my holidays Igo to arusha, but when I'm at
work, the restlam, the nightlifethere yeah, so it's a more
balanced that way, I see, yeah,is food more better in Arusha or

(13:04):
Dar es Salaam?
Food is expensive here.
There's this saying that peoplesay if you're visiting someone
in Dar es Salaam, you have totell them prior.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
Because they'd be like?

Speaker 2 (13:15):
what?
Will they eat the budget?
I think it's because of theeconomy and all that.
So for Arusha, people are morewelcoming.
They can host you for a week amonth.
We host people at our home fora week months, but in that two
days it's like yo bro, dude,switch yourself up.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
The Mgeni thing started playing, You'll be like
aha Sikuya Tatu.
They're like okay are youcontributing to the budget?

Speaker 2 (13:46):
So it's different.
People are more kind in Arusha,but here it's strict.
The economy is way up there.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
So yeah, awesome, so you went to Erasmus.
Is Erasmus Mundus and ErasmusPlus different?

Speaker 2 (14:03):
I think they're different Because for me,
erasmus Plus was more of youthvolunteering services, where you
have exchange programs.
It could be similar to theMundus, but for us it was a
youth exchange program where wehad youth from six different
countries in Europe and inAfrica.

(14:24):
So, in Africa.
It was for Uganda and Tanzania,and then we had youth from
Italy, from Latvia, then there'ssome from Germany and then
there's some from Bulgaria initself.
And so you get togetherDifferent cultures, Different
cultures learning experiences.

(14:44):
I think for me that also led meto starting African Child
Projects was when I went there,we were experimenting with
things like Google Doc.
I think that's like basic, butfor us we were like, okay, our
supervisors like open Google Docand then we start writing and
we were like, what is Google Doc?
you know you're finishing from6th in Tanzania and you have

(15:04):
never interacted with a computerin your entire life.
You're going to university forthe first time.
That's when you're seeing acomputer.
So I think for me that's whatled me to start African Child
Projects and look on a schoolconnectivity project in rural
areas for that.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
So you studied it while there.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
I studied it while there.
Because, as part, when youfinish the voluntary service,
you're Because when you finishthe voluntary service you are
required to write a project andthen they give you a small grant
to write that project andimplement.
So you write a project of yourchoice.
And then after that, you startimplementing.
So after six months, we learneddifferent things, including

(15:40):
creating podcasts with membersfrom the community.
We also learned how to writestories, to write scripts so
that's why I do storytelling andblogging.
We also learned how to writeprojects.
So they equip you withdifferent skills leadership
skills and public speakingskills, everything.
And imagine learning all thatat a very young age and how it

(16:03):
evolves to what you're going todo in the future.
So for me, that at a very youngage and how it evolves to what
you're going to do in the future.
So for me, that laid afoundation of what I'm working
on now and also the small grantgave me a way to at least narrow
down on what I want to do afterI finish my volunteering
service.
And I wrote, I think, back thenit was Africa Child Clubs.
I wanted to start clubs inschools and for students to come

(16:28):
together, learn somethingaround tech and all that.
And then people were asking mewhy african child clubs?
you could have variety ofprojects yeah in african child,
so maybe try find a better name.
So it's like okay, maybe af,maybe African Child Projects,
because the vision I have for itis we having multiple projects

(16:49):
around technology and that'swhat we're having it now
Projects around technology inhealth, we have technology in
democracy, technology ineducation.
So we shock ourselves every dayon what projects we can come up
with and how people receivethem.
I think for us, the biggestshock was technology in

(17:11):
democracy.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
I think, that project was like what was shocking
about it.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
How can technology influence democracy?
I think that was the shock fromus in Tanzania.
There's no such a thing astechnology in democracy.
Even our elections are stillthe traditional ways.
Where you go and vote, the waywe interact with our government
officials are still the physicalinteraction.
So when you tell people thatthere's a better way to do it,

(17:36):
which serves time and effort andresources, they'd be like it's
not possible in Tanzania.
So for us, the Ongiana Democracyproject we call it Ongena
Demokrasia speak with democracyand the phrase that when
democracy speaks, technologylistens.
So it makes you think.
What's it about?

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
So that's the project we've been implementing for a
year and it's coming to an end,but a lot of promising findings
have come from it.
We've had a lot of researchersand just everything unfolding, I
think from all the projectswe've been involved in, and
every time when something newhappens or when we're able to
invent a different type ofproject or any initiative for us

(18:23):
, it's one of our proudestmoments, I think, as youth,
because we are 100% youth-led.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Oh wow, how many are you in that project?

Speaker 2 (18:32):
In the organization yeah Six.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
Six, and is it based in Dao or it's distributed
across the country?

Speaker 2 (18:41):
We are in 26 regions, across every region in Tanzania
.
So we are just a group of sixyouth and we work with a variety
of people on the ground, who wecall digital friends.
We have trained 30 ITs who areworking as our regional ITs.

(19:05):
So we are just sitting on topof a huge team of implementers
on ground and we are justadministrating it all.
So we found a better way to doit, Instead of being in every
region we put money andresources.
At least those people know theirregion.
Some of them are from NGOs thatare existing in those regions.

(19:28):
So how about building capacityfor those NGOs on ground instead
of going to establish your ownoffice in every ground?
So that's how we've been ableto be in every region and just
implementing at a very shorttime.
Our biggest success was at thebeginning of the year.
We went across 86 to 90 schoolswithin a week.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
That's impressive.
That's high schools, or primaryschools, high schools.
Wow, that's interesting.
Within a week, we and what wasthe response in those
interactions?

Speaker 2 (19:58):
The response is good.
It's shocking how people wantto learn, but they are scared.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
Also, there's that, the fear but also the excitement
that's there so you'd go toschools.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Teachers would want to learn, but they're also
scared of telling you that Idon't know this, so they'd be
like I'm coming back theydisappear and then you tell them
this is a learning process.
You can sit with us, say youdon't know, we can train you
Because that is the so-calledICT teacher.
But they don't know.
They know just by the books.

(20:34):
This is how things are.
But when you take computerswith them, practically they
don't know what to do with it.
And one of my, I think, ahamoment or one of my aha moment,
the moment that melted my heartwas when in this school we were
training a kid how to switch ona computer for the first time,
how to interact with thecomputer, and they were scared.

(20:55):
They were literally trembling.
Their hands were like this andwe were like you can touch, you
are not going to break, and theyare touching like the to break.
And they are touching thekeyboard and pressing and they
are trembling.
I was like this is what I wentthrough when I was volunteering
for the first time.
We are given a computer.

(21:15):
Open Google Doc start walkingand I was like.
What is this?
So that same feeling for me.
I get to understand and relateto them in that moment, Because
it puts get to understand andrelate.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
That's beautiful, that's beautiful yeah, because
it puts you in a in a situationwhere you you start realizing
that, um, most of the africanchild, or even africans in
general, um they're really,really smart, but they don't
believe I don't.
For some reason, people aretaught like you, you're not
enough.
Like everyone else can do it,but not you, which is really
unfortunate.
And I'm glad of the work we'redoing, because even for us, when

(21:49):
we are empowering developers,the same same um thing that we
encounter yeah but eventuallypeople start now seeing these
work.
They build the confidence theygo ahead and building different
amazing things.

Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah and also just to add to that and at times no one
tells you that you're notenough there's just this
inferiority complex that you'veseen from your community and you
adapt it.
You know you can see childrenat a young age.
No one sits them down and sayyou're not enough.
But, how do they know that theyare not enough?
I think it's the narrative thathas been passed down from

(22:21):
generation to generations thatwe are not so good, we can't
compete with the global market,or I can't apply for that job
because I'm not enough.
Even the feud betweenTanzanians and Kenyans we are
always scared of you guys.
We can't compete with you in aninterview.
I think it's just the mentalitythat maybe I don't know enough.
So it's just that narrativebeing passed down from

(22:42):
generation to generation.
It could be silently, but alsovocally, but it exists.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, it exists and it takes a lot of effort.
That's changing very fast.
I think it's a kind ofinitiative that you know the
platform that we're creating forpeople to explore, and I think
that's also another reason whywe are doing this podcast,
because these stories are nevertold and maybe some you, maybe
some mainstream media will comecover it, and then just one

(23:08):
minute 30 seconds which leaves alot out.
And also, I understand, becauseeveryone is competing for that
airtime.
Some people are paying for it.
So when we get to record this,we try to go deep to see what
can we explore.
Now you've been running thisproject for now, over six years.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
I wish Four years, four years right.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
We just celebrated our birthday last month, August.
Wow, that's amazing.
How did you celebrate the?

Speaker 2 (23:38):
birthday.
It was our first timecelebrating because we've been
running the NGO for three yearswithout stable funding.
So this year we've had at leaststable funding.
So we took the team out for ateam building activity.
We even had the cake and dinnerand had different games.

(24:02):
For me, I think, as a founder,I was like, wow, we're able to
do this because we've beenoperating from our own pockets,
you know, year one, year two,year three.
That's why, when I was saying,if you're speaking of Catherine,
you're speaking of patience andpersistence, because, imagine,
you are asking, you have a sidejob where you take money from

(24:24):
your side job and put it intothis dream that you have.
So that's where persistence andpatience comes in, because you
are not sure if it will bringfruit anytime soon.
So for us celebrating fouryears and being able to at least
do this small thing for theteam and cutting cake together,
it's crazy, I know right.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
You can see the excitement on your face.
For those who will be listeningfor the audio.
The video is also available onYouTube.
Just check it out.
Subscribe, comment, givefeedback and if you want your
story to be told, please let usknow.
Whenever we're in your Africancity, we can always hook up and
tell your story.
But, catherine, I want us toshift gears a bit and tell us

(25:12):
how you got to know aboutMozilla, common Voice, or how
did they start?
Did they approach you?
Did they write you an email?
How was that Okay.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
So I was working with a colleague of mine, um rebecca
reiki timbo she has been amozilla fellow for a long time
and then.
So mozilla was pioneering thisnew project, the common voice in
tanzania, and they were lookingfor, um, people who can be
community champions, champions.
And so, since they wanted toreach a huge number of people in

(25:46):
areas that are not very wellconnected or people who have
worked with under privilegedcommunities, and so she thought
of me immediately and submittedmy name for possible
consideration, yes.
So submitted my name and profileand then, after they reviewed

(26:07):
my profile and the communitythat I've worked with and the
work that we do at African ChildProject, that's how I got to be
a community champion, just tobring the aspect of inclusivity
in the common voice, becauseit's all about inclusive of the
Swahili language and alsoinclusive of different voices
from the community.

(26:28):
So that's how I got to be partof this amazing project, the
Common Voice project.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
So please tell us more about Mozilla Common Voice
and its mission.
What is this Mozilla CommonVoice?

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Okay so, as they famously call it, sauti Adyemi.
Mozilla Common Voice Okay so,as they famously call it,
mozilla Common Voice is avoluntary project where I think
I'll speak now from a non-techperspective.
It's a voluntary project wherewe aim to increase the Swahili
data set in the voice ecosystem.

(27:03):
I think that's how I'll say it.
So previously, when you wouldwant to interact with services
like Google and others, you'dhave to have this accent and,
like a BBC reporter to speak andget recognized.
But for us, we wanted to know ifwe get online and maybe speak

(27:23):
in Swahili in the accent likeyou know, we have like 200 and
something tribes.
If I speak my Swahili accentthat is related to my tribe
maybe somehow like the Chaga orwhat will I be able to get
recognized by the software andalso will it be able to give me
the requests that I need?

(27:44):
So that was like the whole ideabehind the Sauchi Ajamio, the
common voice, and for us, Ithink now reaching to that idea
took us through various phases.
I think I would call themdifferent stepping stones for us
to reach to that idea.
So we have to collect sentencesthat we can feed into the

(28:09):
machine.
We also have to verify thesentences or validate, but then
again I would just explain theterminology if you need me to.
But also, after validating thesentences, we also have to clean
.
First of all, we collect, cleanand then validate.
After that they are fed into themachine and then now we are
able to put our voices in interms of reading them out loud

(28:33):
and recording our voice.
So that's how they call shareyour voice in the platform.
If you don't know about theMozilla Common Voice project,
you can visit the Mozilla CommonVoice on the website and you
can create your account and beable to share your voice.
So for us, that has been thelearning curve for three years

(28:53):
now, I think, collecting andwe've been able to collect up to
24,000 hours of audios.
But also different languagesare now being uploaded.
I think people are able toupload their local languages and
making it of audios, but alsodifferent languages are now
being applauded.
I think people are able toapplaud their local languages
and making it making, I think,the voice, the voice technology,

(29:13):
inclusive of non-Englishspeakers.
I think that's the.
That's what I love most aboutthe Mozilla common voice.
Apart from Swahili language,there are also other languages
across the globe that have beenable to be fed into the project.
I think Swahili came in on 2021.
But before that, there has beena lot of interactions across

(29:34):
the globe.
People have been able to addtheir voices, add their
languages into the platform.
So it speaks of how are webeing more inclusive, then again
of other languages, of how dowe make technology relatable to
everyone and making themcomfortable to use these
services for non-Englishspeakers, I believe.
So that's the project as well.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah.
So the next question I have foryou around this is what
actually motivated you to bepart of this project and what
has that been experienced?
Did your expectation met or didyou feel like, ah, you know,
yeah, just tell us thatexperience like what motivated

(30:18):
you and was it met?

Speaker 2 (30:20):
What motivated me to join this project, as, since
we've been talking from thebeginning, I'm more about
inclusivity of communities andanything that aims to making
sure that everyone can use aservice, everyone gets access to
a service, and not excludinganyone, I think I'm in.

(30:43):
If anything that aims to bring,I think I'm in.
Anything that aims to bringinclusivity, I'm in.
So the Common Voice Projectalso aims to do similar things
to what I value most inclusivity.
But also for Most of us, Ibelieve.
For me, the story that boughtme for Mozilla Common Voice
Project was I'm thinking ofpeople in rural areas who would

(31:08):
want to access a service onlinebut can't read or write, but can
speak.
So I'm envisioning that theycan get their phone and speak I
need so, so and so and they canget that service.
So that is what brought me in.
But also, has it met myexpectations?

(31:31):
Yes, and beyond.
There's a lot that I've learnedthrough the project and the
people we've been able to workwith.
We've worked with women's group.
I've seen how they have seenvalue in the project.
I've worked with youth groupsin terms of donating their
voices and I've seen how theimpact has been.

(31:53):
But also the data set thatwe've created has been able to
be harnessed by different.
Since it's open source, peoplehave been able to harness this
data and create solutions.
I think there are projects inArusha.
There are projects in Arushathat were created by harnessing
this data, and so that for me,was a plus, that the work that

(32:16):
we've been doing from 2021 todate has brought value, has at
least assisted someone somewherein accessing a service or in
developing a project.
So for me, it has met myexpectations and beyond, but
also the learning that has beenbrought to me.
I think before I just saw voicetechnology as something that

(32:39):
exists maybe because I'm anEnglish speaker, if I would tame
it that way but also I didn'tthink of people who don't speak
English or people who can'taccess these services the pain
points.
So for me, it has met myexpectation in terms of I am
doing something for others toalso be able to access a service

(33:00):
and be part of their movement.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
So in your own words, Catherine, can you describe to
us what is this communitychampion and if there is any
memorable experience being acommunity champion, yeah, please
share that.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Community champion, as the name states for itself,
we are the ones who champion theSauti Ajami or Common Voice
project to different communitiesand we engage every community
out there, so it could becommunity of people with
disabilities, women's group,youth groups, communities in
rural areas, just differentcommunities that you have in

(33:37):
mind.
And my best memorable experiencewas when we were engaging a
women's group.
This is not just younger women,this is women above 50.
Yeah, so getting these womenwas a hassle because we had to
go through the women's groupwhere they meet.

(34:00):
I think they call them VCOBA,the Village Community Banks.
So we speak to their leadersand then they tell these women
that there are these people whocame in.
They want to are you toparticipate in the project and
then getting their confirmationand then arranging transport for
them to meet and then come tothe session as soon as they're
in the session now, explainingto them in simple language

(34:22):
language what are they going todo and how that will bring
impact.
So I think we did it on women'sday I was like women's day 2020
2022 and um.
What I loved about that, it wasthe experience of me knowing
that it's not about technologyyeah it's about people, the
people who are going to use thistechnology.

(34:44):
At the end of the day, we canspeak technology all day, but do
people understand the?

Speaker 1 (34:49):
value what's important.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
Do you understand what's important for them?
Do they understand how thistechnology serves them?
Because, at the end of the day,we can create fancy technology
that they can stay on theshelves, but something that
speaks to people, and for themto take their time to come and
sit on Women's Day, sit with youand donate their voices in the

(35:12):
platform.
I think that was like thebiggest honor that we had that
day, but this was a group of 50women you recorded all of them
this was a group of 50 women itwas me and three other community
champions.
It was hectic, we were sweating.
They had questions, toughquestions, and some of them did

(35:35):
not even know how to interactwith their smartphones, because,
for them, smartphones are allabout WhatsApp and receiving
calls and you have to log inwith your email.
Some of them do not evenremember their passwords.
They'll be like my daughter Ido not remember my password, you
just assist me.
So that patience.

(35:55):
I think of saying, okay, thisis what I go through, I think,
with my mother every day.
They forget their password.
You have to remember theirpasswords and yours.
So that was it.
Just gave me that.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
An African experience .

Speaker 2 (36:09):
An African experience , yeah, so some of them were
like can I just give you myphone?
You can do everything and thengive it back to me.
We're like, no, this issomething you have to do.
So it was a full day of justfun experiences.
We have quite a lot of picturesthat we took.
I think submitted a good reportto Mozilla and that was one of

(36:31):
the highlight, I think, in thewhole of three years of
experience, because gettingwomen above 50 is it's tough and
they have to leave their dailyjobs.
Come and sit with you, I thinkfor us.
We got very valuable feedbackfrom them, very good data set,
but the stories that they toldabout the project and the

(36:53):
curiosity and that was justheartwarming.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
And given that you had 50 women, were they all same
tribe or different tribe?
Did you get different accents,Different yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Different tribes, different accents, different age
groups.
There were women from 40s to60s to even late 60s, so just
different variants of manythings.
But, as you're saying, we gotvery valuable data set that day
and I think it also influencedthere's something that our

(37:32):
overseers or our leaders atCommon Voice were saying that
there's also variance in voicesfor women on certain ages.
So I think that was also a plusin terms of that tapping into
that group and making sure weare not also excluding them in
terms of data set.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Alright, so with this project.
I don't know if that was yourhighest challenge, but was there
like a specific challenge thatyou faced throughout being a
champion and recording thisvoice?
And how are you able to youknow, even if I and recording
this voice, and how are you ableto you know, given if I wanted
to be a leader next year, whatis that?

(38:09):
One lesson I can learn thatmaybe you know, I don't need to
go through the hurdle.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
The different challenge is the skepticism
around donating your voice.
Many people would want to know.
Why am I donating your voice?
Many people would want to knowwhy am I donating my voice?
What are you going to use withmy data?
You know the data privacyissues that have come up
recently, so I think we getasked these questions a lot.

(38:38):
Most people want to know why,why, why, why are we doing this?
Is it important?
Why are we doing that?
And some people have evenrefused to donate their voices
or give us the data set.
So I think for me explaining tothem about the project and all
that, but still, it's a choicefor someone to do it.
We are not allowed, ascommunity champions, to force

(39:00):
people to donate their voices.
So we've had those encountersallowed as community champions
to force people to donate theirvoices.
So we've had those encounters.
But also for me the challengehas been getting people with
disability to donate theirvoices, because then again we'd
want to tap into that group andknowing what is their challenges
and pain point.
But then I think there could bethe setup of the platform on

(39:25):
itself, but also just the wholeproject.
I'm not sure if it has touchedthat target group yet.
So it's challenging when youwant to, when you're speaking of
inclusion, but then againyou're excluding that group in
terms of you have not reachedthat group.
But for overall, I've not seenany challenges that I have faced

(39:46):
so far that have made me losehope in terms of being a
community champion, because thepeople we've engaged with are
enthusiastic.
We are enthusiastic about thework, so it just trickles down
to the people we work with andso far I'm seeing also there's a
lot of people who are coming into join the movement, so it
shows that we are doingsomething.

(40:06):
We have new people from DRC, soit shows that the Swahili's the
Swahili's, you saw, so we alsoshocked when they speak Swahili
as well.
They say we're shocked atKenyans at times, so it's also a
learning curve for me as well.
It's more good than bad interms of experiences.

(40:30):
Okay yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
So what do you think, at scale, the possibility of
this initiative whereby evenforget about Swahili, because
there are also, like over 200languages?

Speaker 2 (40:43):
in Tanzania.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, because that's where these projects are going
In.
Kenya already they have a dataset around Kikuyu Luwo, kimeru
and, I'm sure, even here.
Now that's the next stage.
What are the possibilities?

Speaker 2 (40:59):
If I'm to be honest, the possibility could be, I'd
say, 50-50.
Because we would need peoplefrom those communities to give
us their sentences, but thenagain the people who would read
the sentences would still bethem, because I, as a Swahili

(41:20):
speaker fluent, I would not beable to understand the local
languages.
So up until now, we have notbeen able to reach to those
communities.
So if we are to include thoseother languages, the local
languages, we really have to goall out in terms of seeking to
get data in terms of sentencesfrom those communities, and I've

(41:42):
not seen any initiatives fromthat happening.
But if it were to, that wouldbe impactful, because there are
people who do not even speakSwahili.
As you know, swahili is thenational language in Tanzania,
but there are communities ofpeople who only speak their
local language and you can speakto them in Swahili.
They'd be like what?

Speaker 1 (42:02):
is she saying?

Speaker 2 (42:02):
So that also is a group that we are yet to touch.
So if we are to, we really needto go all out in terms of
collecting their latestunderstanding.
But still, in terms of Swahili,we are not yet there.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
I would say so, there's a lot.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
There's so much that is to be covered.
So, in my honest opinion, maybe, I think, instead of seeing how
we can include all the 200 insomething, maybe, as in Kenya,
the way you did, guys, we couldalso select from biggest tribes,
and I think we could get a lotof backlash from this, because

(42:39):
every tribe considers itself inTanzania as the big, but More
equal, more equal, yeah, and inTanzania as the big but More
equal, and I like that, by theway, because in Kenya we always
have this tribal though I feellike it's brought by politicians
for their own self-interest.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
But in Tanzania you'll never know their tribes.
Actually, when asking someonewhich tribe you come from, they
don't get offended.
Try that in.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
Kenya.
Could it be the case if thereare a few tribes in a country,
then that happens Like tribalismexists.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
I feel like tribalism is always castigated by
individuals.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
And here in Kenya.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
I feel like strongly, I feel like politicians are the
ones who always do this Just todivide and manage and just
appear as a kingpin.
There are advantages that comewith that.
I don't know how far you'vegone with political science, but
it's one of the strategieswhereby you divide people.
Divide and conquer, yeah, andthen establish yourself as a
leader there, and then, ofcourse, now, if you speak as a

(43:41):
community, of course there'sweight that comes with that as
opposed to an individual.
But I feel like if we refocusour priority to development,
economy, economic status andthings that actually bring
progress, then things liketribalism are not an issue.
But ideally I hear you.

(44:03):
There's more that needs to bedone, but do you think from your
experience there's more thatcan be done to make this a
success?

Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yes, I think there's a lot of people who can harness
the data that we use in terms ofthe Swahili data set.
So I think there's a lot thatcan be done by the Common Voice
management or leaders in termsof advertising, because most
people do not know about theCommon Voice project.

(44:36):
I think it's us, who are thecommunity champions, who know
about it, so you can tellsomeone common voice.
Some of them are evendevelopers.
They'd be like what is that?
So I was speaking to someonewho was developing our mobile
app and I was like you canharness the data from common
voice.

(44:56):
What is that?
So I think maybe a lot ofadvertisement around developer
communities and partnerships forthem to, and partnerships and
partnerships for them to knowabout the Common Voice project
and the vision behind it and how.
Maybe the hackathon I think thathappened recently at least
brought to light the project andwhat it does.

(45:19):
I think maybe the few peoplewho participated now know about
Common Voice.
So maybe more projects likethat to just create awareness or
just advertising about the dataset and the potential it can
bring for people to harness itand create projects around it.
That can also assist in makingsure that when we want to
collect more voices in otherlanguages.

(45:40):
People can see the impact thatit has brought in Swahili
language and so, okay, maybethis impact can also be
applicable in my language,because if they don't see the
impact in Swahili, how are theygoing to be able to maybe relate
that impact to their locallanguage?
So, partnering with maybeAfrican Stalking other

(46:01):
communities, different, justgroups of people Could be also
the government telling themabout what they want to
partnering with.
Maybe African Stalking othercommunities, different groups of
people Could be also thegovernment telling them about
what they want to do with thisdata set.
The government could also belooking forward to implementing
something similar.
So maybe partnerships, I think,can also appear to be fruitful
in this era, Because it's beenthree years of the project and

(46:22):
still very few people know aboutit.
So I think in Tanzania thatneeds to be done more of that.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
And I like it because , for me, I just got involved
with the team earlier this year.
I think no, actually mid thisyear, and for us, automatically
we saw the opportunity.
The reason for this is that wehave an API about voice, which
actually we see a lot of usecases and actually you can tell
me if this actually applies inTanzania.

(46:51):
Because, for me.
I look at it from the use casebase where a farmer who can't
actually speak the properSwahili but they know their
local dialect, or even they knowthe small Swahili that they
know, but they speak to this appthat actually could translate
that and make sense.
For instance, a farmer, orthey're looking for medication
or they're looking for direction, they just speak to this

(47:13):
browser plugin or app that isavailable on Mozilla Firefox or
whichever channel it is, andthen they get instruction that
actually could help them.
Also, I see disabled peopleusing some of these solutions.
The majority of people actuallycan't write, but they can speak
.
So for me, I see all thoseopportunities, but of course, as

(47:35):
you've indicated, there are acouple of more things that need
to be done.
So for you, speaking to Mozillaspecifically, what kind of
initiatives specifically do theyneed to focus on Besides, you
know, partnering with governmentor advertising from the project
itself, because right now Iknow you can go on Mozilla
browser, look for Mozilla CommonVoice, like donate your voice,

(47:58):
and you know it's stored as adata set, so what more can they?

Speaker 2 (48:02):
do, as you're saying, the projects.
I think at the beginning for me, I understood that as the goal
For farmers could be people withdisabilities, anyone who wants
to get around somewhere,anywhere, because that's how we
use Google or Siri, that's howwe use it for.

(48:24):
So, if we are to really makeimpact, maybe localize it to
that context, for it not to beup there for developers only.
How is it trickling down tosomeone who just wants to get
around and say, google, please,let me go to this place, and
they just get there and theydon't have to put an English

(48:44):
accent and speak in a certainway.
They can just get into onlineand speak.
So I see that also being, Ithink, the impact, but also
maybe pioneering projects withdifferent, as I said, different
communities or NGOs ordevelopers, community, anyone

(49:05):
pioneering project I think theydid that in 2022 where there are
two solutions that one and theyharnessed the data and the
solutions they created were very, very good.
So I think more of that,because now we've collected a
lot of hours in terms of dataset.
So how are we now moving fromthe process of collecting to

(49:27):
maybe now developing solutions?
So partnering with people whoare already working with people
on ground, communities on ground, and making sure that, as
they're harnessing these datasets, they are creating very
relatable projects.
You know, I think the biggestchallenge for us, as could-be
developers or anyone, is wecreate the solutions that we
want, the ones that we see.

(49:48):
Oh, I see a solution somewhere.
This will work, but do peopleneed that?
So, creating relatablesolutions that anyone, anywhere,
can use these solutions.
A farmer, someone withdisability, anyone can just use
this voice data set.
A farmer, someone withdisability, anyone can just use
this voice data set, and I thinkit will be revolutionary
because a lot of people in ruralareas some of them can't read

(50:08):
or write, but they can speak, asyou're saying.
So how is voice coming in tobring about revolution in that
area?

Speaker 1 (50:17):
I mean I hear you and also I feel like there's a need
to go hard and go big.
Perfect yeah, and for me Ialways look at it that
innovation is not alwaysconcentrated in the cities right
.
If possibly you can go to likeoutskirts of the town.
Maybe universities try to dosome of this solution.

(50:38):
Involve the locals.
You'll find actually this isgrowing, but of course, again, a
developer is very important inthis key aspect and I've seen
this come in several facets,because any innovative company
across the world that does notreally open the doors for the
developers it cannot innovate somuch.
One because of capacity and twobecause they don't have the

(51:02):
visibility of different peopleacross different regions.
And imagine now Africa, whichhas I don't know how many
languages and one billion people, the kind of solution that
people would be building andusing and looking to harness
from this, because, from what Iunderstand, mozilla is just
starting on this.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
And.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
I'm sure most people will take up the mantle and
scale.
Do you think AI and machinelearning the way it is right now
with things like ChagiPT, BUD,GROK and all these tools that
are really unnerving, the powerof AI will actually fast-track
this process will actually firststrike this process.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
So when you speak of things like AI or machine
learning, I think it gets scary.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Don't worry, I can break it down.
No, no, it's way up there.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
But you can be shocked that.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
For for people who are not take a savvy, we get
shocked that we use thesesolutions but don't know that
they are AI.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
So at the end of the day, I think communities don't
care if I'm using AI or not, aslong as it's facilitating the
problem or it's assisting me insolving the problem that I had.
So if AI is present or machinelearning, if it's coming into
play and fast-tracking theprocess, well and good, by the

(52:36):
end of the day, the solution hasto be something that people
need.
So if we are developinganything, if it includes all
those technologies, it has to besomething people need, because
developers or us communities Irepeat, at the end of the day,
we develop solutions that welove.
Ai is trendy, so let's put AIin.

(52:57):
Machine learning is trendy,let's do that.
But then people on ground is itsomething they can use?
Do they have the facilities?
Do they have the know-how, thecapabilities?
I think that's the aspect weforget.
So we end up with goodsolutions on the shelf.
So I think, if we are to reallyinnovate for rural areas, let's

(53:18):
see what is available there andwhat can work there now, because
I've worked in projects are inareas for four years now.
So I I know the, the hurdlesthat are there.
I know what works and whatdoesn't, the opportunities that
exist.
I think that's one of the waysof the reasons why I also was
the champion in the common voice, because I've worked in there

(53:39):
for four years and I understandeverything about it.
I think in also Most of my.
I would say like I am an expertin rural developments in terms
of ICT because I've done it.
I've been there, done that.
So most of people would investso much in the technology but
they wouldn't invest in theskills for the people.

(54:02):
So you have a good technologybut people cannot use it because
they don't have the skills andthe know-how on how to do it.
Not use it because they don'thave the skills and the know-how
on how to do it.
So maybe at the end of the day,when donors are putting out
funding, put an aspect thatwould also be of trainings to
these people on how to use thesolution, not all the funding to
go to developing the solution.

(54:23):
At the end of the day, thesolution is there but people
don't know how to use it or theydon't have the skills or they
know how.
And also my work cuts acrosspolicy and regulations the
policy that assists people ingetting affordable devices, the
policy that assists people inmaking sure that we have
villages connected to internet,because at the end of the day,

(54:44):
you have a solution thatrequires internet.
People in urban areas will bethe ones to use it, but also
there's a lot of solutions thatthey can opt and not go for
yours.
So, if you want to create forthat group, you have to know
that internet is an issue.
Affordability of your solutionyou want people to pay for your
solution.
Someone has to choose betweenbuying seeds and paying for

(55:05):
voice set.
Will they choose that?
So you have to put a lot offactors in Affordability,
incentives, also training how touse your solutions.
So factor everything in whenyou're developing the solution.
Don't develop the solution andthen force people to use it
against the conditions thatthey're in.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
So I think communities have to.
Actually, you have a veryinteresting angle to look at it
which I have not thought aboutbefore, Because here I'm asking
myself there are places, evenwhere electrification is not
there right.
And most of these gadgets.
They require, you know, theelectricity to work.

(55:49):
Most of these people alsoaccessing the internet is an
issue, and thanks to Starlink,actually, and I hope it lands
here in Tanzania.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
I hope so too, yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
I feel like now that it's in Kenya, Malawi and
Nigeria and some other fewcountries.
It changes the dynamics becausenow you can go with Starlink in
the rural place and stillaccess the internet seamlessly
and be able to train, be able toshow things in the rural place
and still access internet, youknow, seamlessly and be able to
train be able to show things inthe real time.
Uh, so some of those initiativesactually needs to join hands in

(56:17):
one way or the other but also,of course, training people is
very important because you knowif I have a solution, or even
taking.
Taking even an example of a carI have a car, but I don't know
how to drive.
What's the use?

Speaker 2 (56:31):
of it.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Now I have to hire a driver.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
I have to worry about Extra costs.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Yeah, and people might take advantage of that
right.
So I think that's very important.
Do you think now, maybeinvolving?
But I understand why theapproach is okay, let's develop
a couple of solutions aroundthis.
Let's collect as much data aspossible because, remember, with
more data we are able to trainthis data set more to fit
actually most of our use casesas well as even when people are

(56:59):
developing.
So if the steps are like let'scollect data, let's start
developing and then train theend user on how to adopt some of
these solutions, then I thinkwe're on the right track.
But if training is not thereand I see why training would
come last, because even if Itrain you to use something and
it doesn't exist- it doesn'tmake a lot of sense.

(57:19):
But I think that as a next step,that would be really, really
amazing in terms of the steps.
So Catherine ask Catherine,what next for you?
Like, you are doing an amazingstuff.
Now there's stable funding.
Are you still the champion oryou wanted over the mantle of
someone else?
Once a champion, always achampion, you're speaking like a

(57:44):
soldier.
They always say once a soldierremains a soldier, something
like that, like you, served inthe army.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
I would love to still be a champion, because I
believe I have more to offer andthere's a lot that we can still
do with communities in ruralareas.
So I would still love to be achampion, but I also want to see
more voices included of peoplefrom different walks of life.
So maybe we could also havemaybe women above 40 champion

(58:11):
and see what they have to offer,because most of the champions
have been youth and now most ofour work is youth oriented.
So let's see more perspectives,I think, from age groups.
But also, what I love mostabout Mozilla, they have gone
all out in terms of seeing thatthere's women representation in

(58:31):
this project.
Almost 80% of champions arewomen.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Is that good or bad?
That's a good thing, because Ihave my reservations.
Why is that good?
I?

Speaker 2 (58:43):
know.
For me it's a good thingbecause you'd want in such a
project if you want more.
I think Kathleen used to saythis perfectly when they were
doing surveys.
I think in the past they'd findthat when they are collecting
data sets, most data sets thatexist were for men more than

(59:06):
women, and so if you want tocollect more data set for women,
have more women champions whocan bring in any good or fresh
ideas were for men more thanwomen, and so if you want to
collect more data set for women,have more women champions who
can bring in any good or freshideas on the table on how to
include more women.
So, that has.
They even have a genderinclusion, something, police,
and they are walking the talk.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
But wait a minute.
Does that not exclude the men?

Speaker 2 (59:27):
It doesn't exclude.
I say 80%, so 20%.
We have men in men as communitychampions, but I love what they
have done in terms of includingmore women, because if it went
for that, then you'd find 10 menand one woman champion.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
But why not?

Speaker 2 (59:42):
50-50?
Or you feel like ladies areleft behind.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
You have to catch up.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Now you want men's rights.
No, no, no, ladies, you know,are left behind.
Now you want men's right.
I kind of feel like even if youwent 80, 20, still they're able
to collect data set from men,because men are always could be
my own perspective they'realways just up to and running to
such projects.

(01:00:08):
But women are more reluctant.
They'd want to know why am Idoing this?
Why that?
So for us to give them thatassurance that I am doing it,
you can do it, and they seethere are women champions doing
it.
Then more girls and women havebeen more comfortable in sharing
their voices.
I see it as it could be reversepsychology or somehow how to

(01:00:31):
bring more women on board interms of seeing other women as
community champions andbelieving that this solution is
fit for women, that they arethere doing it.
I can do it as well.
So we have been able to.
Even the women's group.
We have been able to do it withfour other women.
They are seeing us doing it,believing in what we are doing.
That's why they are able tocome in large numbers.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Yeah, so that's how.
Wow, that's an interesting youknow.
And this way I think, thank youactually for expounding on that
, Because every time I findsomeone who is saying, yeah,
women all the time, womenempowerment.
I just want to know why?
Because there are some peoplewho are in this for wrong
reasons for sure, but if that'sthe perspective, 100%, and I
wish there would be 50-50 nowwomen don't feel left behind,

(01:01:16):
men don't feel like, you know,women are given all the goodies
and just yeah, because it's alsonot true that women are, you
know, up there if we looksoberly.
But ideally for this, actually,I totally agree with you and
yeah, let's have more women morediversity, more diversity and
also even maybe more championsin the rural areas, remote areas

(01:01:41):
satellite towns cities.
So that's it for Mozilla CommonVoice.
What's up for the African child?

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
It is a lot.
We recently launched our newproject in partnership with
Cisco and Silicon ValleyFoundation.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Very nice.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
So this project is massive.
It feels like it has beenbuilding up from 2019 to date,
like everything we have beendoing has led up to this moment.
It's all about digital skills.
We've been talking aboutdigital skills for years,
because most people are morethan willing to invest in

(01:02:23):
infrastructures and build towers.
At the end of the day, when wetell them about skills I'm sure
you've heard me now here talkabout skills it's a subject that
is never brought up peopleassume, people already know so
you put a tower.
Internet is available.
Everyone go online.
How see?
So we've been on ground andhave seen this problem and we've

(01:02:45):
been trying to speak about itin every platform Skills, skills
, skills.
And finally we've had someonenow who has listened to our cry
out and they are willing topilot a digital skills academy
with us.
So we'll be starting AfricanChild Academy.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
We've already launched across.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
TZ.
We've already launched theproject.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
So you'll have these academies in different cities?

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
Yeah, we are partnering with ICT centers.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
Like HuniHub.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
All ICT centers.
So we've given a call out toall ICT centers to partner with
us making sure that the academyexists in their center.
They will be giving out freecourses on Cisco, together with
certification.
They will be giving out freecourses on Cisco and, together
with certification.
We will be conducting differentstudy tours, field practices,
anything concerning ICT,competitions, hackathons,

(01:03:38):
because, at the end of the day,when we did a small survey on
August to September, yeah wefound out that people who are
taking courses online only havecertificates this huge but when
you tell them what they learnedor how are they going to
practice it, they don't know how.
So we wanted to answer to thatgap that exists between you

(01:03:59):
studying and taking yourcertificate and practicing.
So we're going out speaking todifferent companies that as soon
as someone finishes reading,programming or networking, can
they come and do practicalstudies in your company.
So we want to go a step further.
Instead of only training themand giving them skills, how can
they turn these skills intoemployability skills?

(01:04:20):
How can they develop solutionswith these skills?
So it's not only about skills.
I think that's the idea that wehad at the beginning when we
were designing the program withCisco, but after the short
surveys and our own personalexperiences, we are seeing the
potential to have these peoplepractice these skills by

(01:04:41):
partnering with companies.
So I think African Stockingswill be coming to you guys as
well, if you have, if you allowus to at least bring in people
to practice.
I think that's the aspect thatcan transform now the skills
into something tangible thatthey can use, could be products,
could be solutions services.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Sorry to cut you off.
Tell us how we can get involved.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Ah, we're there already, okay, so you can reach
us through our social mediapages.
We have presence in all socialmedias.
Ah, we're there already, okay,so you can reach us through our
social media pages.
We have presence in all socialmedias Facebook, instagram,
linkedin, linkedin.
We are most active.
Our website we'll be launchinga new website recently, in the
coming month, so please feelfree to write to us.

(01:05:25):
You can email us, you can callus.
We are just an open group ofpeople and all our phone numbers
and emails are out there, soyou can email us, call us
anytime.
Our offices are here in Dar esSalaam, bezi Goigi.
You can come to our office.
We are more than willing topartner with anyone who wants to
work with us, especially inthis new project of SISC, of

(01:05:47):
African Child Academy.
We want to partner with you.
We want to work with companiesthat are willing to offer places
for people to go in andpractice what they are learning.
And, at the end of the day, Ithink it's not a once person,
it's not only our achievement,it's us coming together to

(01:06:08):
making sure that we are givingsomething back to our
communities.
And when we say we are doingimpactful work, I think our
vision is transformedcommunities, and it's now that
I'm seeing that vision coming tolife through the projects that
we are doing, because when weare speaking of transformed
communities in 2019, we did notknow what transformed
communities are looking like,but as years are going back, we

(01:06:30):
are seeing it.
I think, working with companiesas we will be working with
African Stopping in the futureand any other companies that's
how we are seeing transformedcommunities taking form.
Very nice, very nice yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
So, katharine, we are really glad to hear that, and
you know telling your storyexploring different
opportunities to equip peoplewith skill capacity building,
partnering with Mozilla Africa,stalking Impact Masters, this

(01:07:05):
collective approach to differentthings.
Now Cisco and Silicon ValleyFoundation.
It's going to take thatcollaborative approach to really
get Africa where it's supposedto be and also to showcase most
of the innovation and smartminds that we have across Africa
, and I wish you all the best inthis.

(01:07:26):
The only thing that I'm sayingplease, after this, we can see
how maybe we can be part of itas Africa's Talking, and also as
.
Impact Masters, because thatcollective approach is needed.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
There's no doubt about it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
No one single person, one single organization can do
it, and what you have donealready is amazing.
Thank you you asked me, so keepat it.
I, what you have done alreadyis amazing, thank you, so keep
at it.
I don't know how old you are,but of course I can see you're
not that old.
You can go really far if youreally keep at it.
But I've not asked one question.
In all these initiatives, whatis one challenge that you face

(01:08:08):
as Catherine?

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
As Catherine, I think it's the age.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Oh the age?

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Yeah, because my work involves me being in places
where there are people twice orthrice my age, and mostly in
government, I think, and inother places.
So you are speaking withsomeone on the phone, they're
like, okay, madam, we're goingto do this and that.
And as soon as you arrive, andthey're like who is Catherine Me

(01:08:38):
, you?

Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
Is that crazy?

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
It's that crazy.
Yeah, because you're givingorders, you're giving directives
, but as soon as they see you,they're're like this small girl,
what is she?
yeah, so that I was complainingI was complaining to my, to my
mentor and he's like I think youhave to add a little weight for
people to take you seriously.

(01:09:02):
But I think it's, it's the,it's the narrative in Africa
that you have to be um, a personof a certain size to give
orders or to run an organizationor to be somebody.
As soon as you're just a youth,youth are never taken seriously
.
So if you say African child isyouth-led, these youth are not.

(01:09:23):
Youth are never serious.
That's the narrative.
But when they meet a group ofyouth who are serious, they'll
be like hmm, so that has beenthe challenge, I think people
not taking us seriously becausewe're youth, and people not
taking you seriously becauseyou're a woman, but also people
not taking you seriously becauseof your age I am thrice your

(01:09:44):
age.
What are you going to tell me?
So our meetings with thegovernment have been at least
somehow hard because you, bigchairs, you're sinking in,
you're trying to speak aboutpolicy, how we need better
policies.
Yeah, so I think also for me,the second challenge has been
knowledge.

(01:10:05):
I kind of feel like I alwayshave to learn, learn.
If I am in the area of policy,I have to learn.
What is all.
So it's the constant learning.
I think it's.
I get burnouts at time fromthat.
Yeah, Burnouts are real and thelearning is continuous, but
it's.
I love learning, but at timesit gets overwhelming when you're

(01:10:26):
not sure now what you have tolearn to do something, because I
don't have an IT background andI'm running IT projects.
My background is oninternational relations, so I
constantly have to learn aboutIT stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
When.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
I sit in meetings.
I have to know what they meanby megabits per second.
What is that?

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:48):
Constantly learning, learning, learning.
I've loved it and the journeyhas been good, but so far
there's no life-threateningchallenges.
There's something we can handle, but it's the challenges that
we face every day.
So my mentor usually say don'ttake it personal, it's not about
you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
I know it's never about me, so I'm always positive
about it yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
So what can you tell young guys who are really, you
know, trying to figure outshould I go the way, should I
start this?
Am I too young for this?
You know?
Am I too?
You know?
There are people who actuallyhave self-doubt around these,
and also people who take thingsto be.
You know about them.

Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
About them.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
yeah, literally like you might say something, and
you're just trying to for thisperson to get a sense and
already it's becoming personal.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
It's personal, yeah, and then you know that doesn't
really profile you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
People find you unprofessional and also kind of.
You know, should I take thisperson serious?
Do they need some time to?

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
grow.

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):
And in fact someone might be willing to give you a
big project, but from that aloneyou might be like Am I making a
mistake?
Because you know it is what itis.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
I remember there's this meme going around about
your president and I said Inearly won Ruto, William Ruto.
I usually tell youth it's notan easy, easy journey.
People think it's just merryand cherry.
Because they are seeing us atour fourth year, they should
have met us at our first yeareveryone was there first year or

(01:12:22):
no people kept leaving.
My mentor sat me.
It's very first thing, veryimportant you have a mentor.
My mentor would sit me down andsay people will live.
You are the vision bearer.
You have to have a thick skin,for when people leave, you have
to know it's not about you.

(01:12:43):
So from the very, verybeginning, I got to learn the
lesson that it's never about me.
If someone lives, they've founda better job, a better paying
job, a better opportunity.
You wish them well and knowsomeone else who believes in the
vision will come.
So we've had a lot of stuffcoming in and out and I've had
two people who have stuck withme throughout Until the year.

(01:13:07):
We've been able to offer them,like stable salary.
I am like I have.
Whenever I talked about them.
I'm like I have high respectfor these people.
They have, you know, the veryact of them taking money out of
their pocket and investing in avision that you have just told
them about.
It just shows that the amountof belief and respect they have

(01:13:30):
in that.
So for me that has been thestory from the beginning.
So whenever someone comes to me, I think there are a lot of
youth who come to me and say Iwant to start an NGO.
I want to do this.
I want to do like you guys aredoing and I'm like we were not
this four years ago.
We were meeting under a treesomewhere discussing about our

(01:13:51):
big vision of transformingcommunities, but we don't know
how.
But we just know we want totransform communities.
So it has to exceed thebenefits, it has to be more than
that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
So do you feel like some of these projects actually
kept looping into each otherbecause already you started
started?
Or you feel like this was meantto be.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
It kept feeling like we were also going with the flow
, but also the flow was takingus into the right direction.
We were not.
My mentors would say don't fallin love with your solution.
Fall in love with the problem,so you don't fall in love with
your project.
Fall in love with the problem,so you don't fall in love with
your project.
Fall in love with the problemthat exists, because the
solution could change but theproblem is still the same.

(01:14:35):
So the problem could be lack ofthis, lack of that, lack of
that, but the solutions could becoming from different angles.
So for us, we understood theproblem from the beginning that
this is what we want to solve.
When we mean transformedcommunity, this is what we want
to see at the end goal.
But the process here we did notnavigate or we did not know

(01:14:57):
what the process would be.
But the end goal, we knew itand the starting point, we knew
it.
So opportunities that came ourway, we knew this is for us
because this speaks to what wevalue or what the end goal is.
Way, we knew this is for usbecause this speaks to what we
value or what the end goal is.
Yeah, that's how we knew it andthen again, um, understanding
trends.
I think we've been able to stayum in front of trends for most,

(01:15:19):
of course.
Now I was telling I think oneof my team members was like how
are you able to to see thatdigital skills is key?
Because how?
Because the government is nowspeaking of digital skills but
you're already implementing aprogram that digital skills is
key?
Because how, because thegovernment is now speaking of
digital skills but you'realready implementing a program
on digital skills, how are youable to see the trend?
But I'm able to sit and see thedirection of where things are

(01:15:40):
going.
I think it's just like a thirdeye type of view.
I'm able to see that.
Okay, now a lot of resources aregoing into infrastructure.
In the future, people will seethat infrastructure is not the
only solution.
They will come to skills.
We have been speaking aboutskills since 2019, 2020.

(01:16:03):
No one was listening to us, butnow the government will finish
in investing in infrastructure.
Infrastructure, they will seepeople do not have skills.
We have already.
We are already implementing aprogram on skills.
So when we are pitching thisprogram to to the government
offices about it, they're likewow, we have been thinking about
this.
We want to partner with you andI say see, because they are

(01:16:27):
going all out, spending allfunds on infrastructure.
People do not have skills.
So, at the end of the day, whowill use this infrastructure?
It will be in vain, which weare hoping not to.
So, whenever we were pitchingthis project last year, we were
emphasizing on infrastructuresand access is what the whole

(01:16:47):
world is talking about.
Infrastructures and access iswhat the whole world is talking
about, but this small aspect ofskills is what will hinder us
from making sure that we areconnecting.
I think we went into themeeting of ITU.
They were speaking aboutconnecting the next million
people who are still unconnected, but still, after connecting
all of them, what's next?
Yeah, so we're able, I think,the ability to understand trends

(01:17:07):
.
That's what I think mostAfrican startups need to just
see how things are moving andknow that.
Okay, something is missing here, not feeling sufficient.
We've already done everything.
There's always something youhave to niche market very nice,
very nice.
Let me not say that, but yeah, Ilike it Very nice Very nice

(01:17:30):
Catherine Let me not say that,but, yeah, I like it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
So this is really interesting and thank you so
much for making time for us.
I wish we had all the time inthe world, because I feel like
there's a lot, but I'll becoming to you know now and then
at least a quarter, because Ifeel like you guys are doing so
much, and especially in tech,and and there's not much
coverage for it.

(01:17:53):
Yeah, first time I came herewas last no, not last year, but
2018, um, and last year I cameback and even when I was coming
last year, there were so manypeople telling me things are a
bit slow.
You know, guys are not soexcited about tech, but for me,
I believe where there's people,there's a solution.
So, okay, nevertheless, I'll go, and if it just doesn't work,

(01:18:14):
that's it.
But look, we are here, so,thank you so much.
I'd like you to give a partingshot and, you know, tell our
subscribers, even in Swahili,subscribe like, tell us your
feedback, I will appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we are coming to the
end of our amazing podcast inSwahili.
I love this saying.
I think it was by certain mediain Tanzania.
They were saying something weare opening the world to those
who want it.
I think that's what AfricanStalking is all something we are
opening the world to those whowant it.
I think that's what AfricanStalking is all about.
You're opening the world to usto tell our stories, to share

(01:18:57):
the untold part of our lives,and thank you so much for that,
for opening us, for opening theworld to us.
So please don't forget tosubscribe, to like to comment,
to share and tell people aboutAfricans Talking, tell people
about this amazing podcast.
I think you have a series ofpodcasts with different stories.

(01:19:19):
Please listen to them, learnfrom these stories, because
there's nothing new under thesun the same challenges we're
facing, the same challenges thatyou could be facing, and you
could see ways to navigate fromour stories.
So welcome.

(01:19:42):
Karibu Nisana Dar Es.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
Salaam, karibu, tanzania, and I'm looking
forward to hearing this podcast,Eri?
Yeah, for sure.
Thank you so much.
Al-sante and I also give aproverb, but nowadays I want to
be giving proverbs.
I've realized that we don't sayenough.
There's this program in Kenyacalled Spice.
It airs in the morning fromSpice FM, so they talk about

(01:20:04):
some you know objectives, thingsthat are happening, and I found
them actually really intuitiveto listen to as opposed to just
listening to just radio, andthey always open with a proverb
and what it means.
But for me, I just stand with aproverb and tell you what it
means.
So I finish with a very niceSwahili proverb.
Proverb in Swahili is MethaliMethali Mzuri akosi Kilema, and

(01:20:38):
it says a beautiful person Isnot without a blemish, and I'll
explain a bit.
So if you go to any country Inthe world, there's always the
positive side and the negativeside.
So for me, I'd encourage younot to focus on the negative
sides, because we're not perfect.
I think that's how the planetis built and people are more

(01:20:59):
good at amplifying the negatives.
So if you find anything that isnegative, even about this
podcast, just let us knowthrough the comments.
We always work on it andimprove.
We're not saying we'll beperfect.
And if you find somethingnegative about, just let us know
through the comment.
We always work on it andimprove.
We're not saying we'll beperfect, but improve.
And if you find somethingnegative about your colleague,

(01:21:20):
your workmate, your boss,whoever it is, just you know,
call them aside and Chief, youknow there's this and that and
that and find a better way ofsaying it, because not most
people appreciate Most people.
So let it not cost you anything,and then that will grow
together, because, africa, weneed to grow together, and this
I've learned from Tanzania.
So Tanzania normally keepssaying this that when Tanzania

(01:21:43):
Succeed as one.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
Because you guys are like.

Speaker 1 (01:21:46):
You know, we are okay .
If you are poor, we are poor,doesn't matter if you are not
educated, if you don't knowEnglish, you don't know're okay.
If you're poor, we're poor.
If you're not educated, we'renot educated.
If you don't know English, youdon't know English, then it's
fine, everyone is fine with that.
But unlike Tanzania, you go toother places and you find that
people are a bit competitive.

Speaker 2 (01:22:00):
They're like I'm better than you.

Speaker 1 (01:22:02):
Life is not a competition right.
I'm not saying people shouldjust relax and know, but I'm not
saying people should just relaxand know, but please a
beautiful thing is not without aplan.
Thank you so much.
I'm your host, michael Kemadi.
Kathrine is clapping.
Thank you so much.

(01:22:23):
This is Michael Kemadi, yourhost, or MK, if you want,
representing Impact Masters incollaboration with Africa's
Talking Retort Podcast.
You'll find us in Apple Podcast, google Podcast, among many
other podcasts around the world,and on YouTube.

(01:22:44):
It's Impact Masters andAfrica's Talking until next time
.
Thank you so much.
God bless you.
Impact Masters and AfricaStalking Until next time.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
God bless you.